ottergirl

According to Rinna and Kyle, LVP was furious with Kyle for saying in the season premiere episode that LVP holds a grudge and that she prefers Rinna because Rinna is "more manipulable." Rinna said that LVP left the premiere party early because she was so mad when she saw that footage. I noticed that in tonight's episode, also, there were a number of clips of Kyle making small but unflattering comments about LVP, e.g, about how LVP makes jokes that are really digs. Benign statements, but we know LVP cannot take any criticism at all. (So funny, since her own talking heads are nonstop digs at other people, which are always "a joke, darling!") Methinks the editors are trying to start a fight. And it sounds like LVP is going to fall for it. What's interesting is, I wonder if it will have the same outcome it did in earlier seasons, when LVP claimed that Kyle betrayed her, and the hordes turned on Kyle. While LVP is still a hugely popular housewife (the Reality Tea blog is filled with LVP fanatics), there are a growing number of people who are getting fatigued by her act. As your post above indicates! What's interesting to me is how Kyle is going to play this. While Kyle will never be as popular as LVP, she is in a stronger position now than ever. She has her own TV show in development with a legit production company; she's about to do a run on Celebrity Apprentice, her marriage is great, she doesn't have to carry her sister on the show, and she's got more strong relationships with her castmates than anyone else. (In fact, Kyle is the only bridge right now between LVP and the others.) Last time Kyle was in a "power position" (early Season 2), she overplayed her hand, being mean to Brandi and taking LVP for granted. She paid quite the price for it. Kyle's shown an ability to learn from her mistakes on the show, and I wonder how she's going to handle this scenario. (She was on WWHL last week saying that she loves LVP like a sister, and that she wished LVP wouldn't give her such a hard time about the "grudge" comment, because they'd had a great season together.) If LVP were really smart, she'd let the Kyle stuff roll off her back. It would earn her tons of credibility. But I don't think she will be able to resist; LVP is like certain political figures, in that she cannot allow any statement against her to go unchallenged, and she has to win at all costs.

You must have watched Seasons One and Three and maybe Season Four; definitely not Seasons Two or Five. When Kim is in full-blown addiction mode, she is abusive, confrontational, delusional and vicious. She and Brandi in Season Five were nearly unwatchable in their level of abuse towards the other women. I think they were truly unhinged; Brandi because she knew she was on the outs and losing her place on the show, and Kim because her addiction was in full-on meltdown. One thing I definitely agree with you on: I wish that Kyle and Kim would sever their relationship. But I wish it for Kyle's sake, not for Kim's. I think Kyle is co-dependent, feels responsible for Kim, and also wants to be seen as a hero all the time; therefore, she can't stop trying to "fix" their relationship, even when it's destructive to both of them. All Kim's children are grown now, and if I were giving advice to Kyle, I would advise her to let Kim go.

I think LVP was one of the first wives in the entire franchise who was smart enough to use the show strategically - as in, she knew what the producers were trying to do to manipulate her, and she outplayed production. This was all in Season 2 with Brandi; Brandi was brought in specifically to rile up LVP through the Cedric connection. For ages, LVP refused to engage, then she met up with Brandi off camera, prior to the Hawaii trip, and they made a strategic alliance: basically, LVP said that she would befriend Brandi on camera, to ensure Brandi a spot on the show, and Brandi would not go against LVP. LVP and Brandi have both confirmed most of this, including the pre-Hawaii meeting to negotiate their on camera relationship. Meanwhile, Kyle had been spending the season fighting with Brandi on camera, largely to protect LVP, and ended up looking like a mean girl, while LVP was sitting pretty. This is why Kyle said, at that year's reunion, that LVP was Bobby Fischer. I don't think that's a bad thing, by the way. Production tries to play games with the wives, and if the wives are smart enough to see through it and turn the tables, more power to them!!! I am completely pro-LVP on that front. Her smart thinking changed the game, and good for her. Where LVP loses me -- big time -- is that whenever she is caught, she cries and plays victim. She claims not to understand what anyone is talking about, she is just a sweet innocent restaurant owner who would NEVER delve into drama. (Literally every single long term wife has said the exact same thing about LVP: she manipulates behind the scenes for storylines and her own persona.) That sort of false innocence, designed to speak to viewers who take everything she says at face value, is gross to me. (It's the same thing Vicki Gunvalson and certain political candidates do: I can say whatever I want, knowing that in this post-truth world, my "fans" will believe anything I say, regardless of how true or false it may be.) For all her faults -- and they are many -- the reason I always find myself liking Kyle, in the end, is that Kyle plays fair. When she acts badly, she owns it straight up. She has admitted to being mean with her sister in Season One (even though we now know so much more about the truth of that), to overreacting and escalating the fight with Camille in Season One, to being nasty to Brandi in Season Two, and to trying to play both sides of the fence with LVP during Season Two. Kyle has the extremely rare ability to see her own behavior and publicly admit what she has done wrong. It makes her oddly relatable to me. Whereas LVP seems to truly believe that if she were to ever admit wrongdoing, Giggy would burst into flames. (It's interesting that this dynamic is reflected in each of their husbands. Mauricio has no problem having honest conversations with Kyle around her issues, whereas whenever someone doesn't like LVP, Ken immediately shrieks and starts calling them names and saying how jealous they are.) All THAT said, my hopes for the season? I think the smartest thing the wives could do, if they want to outplay LVP, is just leave her on the sidelines. She's trying to create storylines, you know she is, so don't buy into them, and don't complain that she's doing it: just write BETTER storylines, and leave her out of them. She doesn't want to be excluded. So give her two choices: be part of our storylines, or be on the sidelines. I'd love to see how she responded to that.

I kept trying to write a post about how hypocritical Bethenny is. But I gave up. Here's why. Bethenny is a vicious, nasty b--h. But it doesn't matter. She can attack every woman on this show. She can lose her mind on camera. She can be a complete and total hypocrite. She can hide her relationships. She can refuse to put anything but her brand on camera. She can curse and scream and talk over everyone all season, and then she can say "I am allowed to have an opinion" as if that was ever in doubt. She can refuse to film with Sonja for most of a season because she doesn't want to give Sonja's "storyline" any air time and she can claim that it's because of Sonja's addiction issues. She can call the other women liars, drug addicts, sluts and whores; she can defame their marriages and mock their illnesses; and then she can get outraged that her own integrity was attacked. She can accuse everyone else of drug use while being a clinical case study for the overuse of Adderall. But there will never be consequences. Not as long as Andy is calling the shots. He has chosen his team. He is Team Bethenny. She will get to be a producer. She will get her own radio show. She will get the "last word" on WWHL. Lin Manuel Miranda said it best. "Who lives, who dies, who tells your story." As long as Andy is in charge, Bethenny will live, everyone who opposes her will die, and Bethenny will tell the story. Huh. I guess I wrote my post after all.

I'm so glad you guys are discussing the ET article! My theory is that Bethenny is trying a Hail Mary to save her image -- she is trying to control the edit of the reunion. There was a Blind Item a while back about a Housewife who was forbidden by producers from showing pictures of her costar using cocaine, and negotiated another disclosure instead. Very obviously Bethenny. Also obvious that Bethenny and Carole are chomping at the bit to talk about alleged drug use by their costars - she has essentially accused John, Dorinda AND Luann of drug use, ON CAMERA, in very slightly veiled language, and she wants to go the rest of the way. The quote from that ET article where Bethenny says they won't let her bring up certain issues because of "litigation" is quite obviously Bethenny being furious that she can't use cocaine use against Luann. And now, basically, she is claiming that she's going to quit the show if they don't tell the story she wants them to tell. Stay strong, production. Don't let Bethenny strong-arm you. She has spent the entire season trying to control this show - dictating who she will film with, when and where she will vacation, what elements of her life will and will not be on camera - and it has been to the detriment of the show. Whether or not she is a named producer, she very obviously believes she has the right and the ability to control production, and to dictate the narrative, and I think she's furious right now to see that it is not going her way. Maybe Bethenny could call Jill Zarin, and they could commiserate. This is precisely what happened to Jill in Season 3; she tried to dictate storylines, and to freeze out Bethenny, and it all went against her. Bethenny is Jill Zarin. It is glorious karma. But Andy, please realize: Season 3 had its glorious climax at the reunion. Imagine how awful that reunion would have been if Jill had been allowed to edit it to her own liking. That's what Bethenny wants to do now. Don't let her.

I get that. And I think if you have a choice, you're right! But... so often you don't have a choice. One thing I've learned is that it is incredible how many people are out in everyday life, doing their jobs, raising their kids, and at the same time are dealing with major health issues that you know nothing about. Fibroid insanity, and the practical challenges it raises, is nothing compared to people who are out doing their jobs, traveling for work, etc., and under their shirt they have their chemo infusion hooked up, or they have to leave the meeting at a precise time to take their HIV meds, etc. I once did a triathlon and after finishing it had to sneak into the porta-potty to give myself an IVF shot. That was funny, because it was funny and IVF was a choice and a privilege (albeit one that didn't work), but I know so many people who have done so many hard things - and you would never know. Because life has to go on. I can't take my stuff too seriously because I've seen what serious looks like, and thank God, it hasn't happened to me yet. Which is why Yolanda's "invisible illness" narrative made me so angry because say what you will about Yolanda's illness, not one darn thing about it was INVISIBLE. And I don't think illness has to be, by the way. I think people have the right to deal with their illness in whatever way empowers them and makes them feel better, and I will do my best to show compassion. Gosh. I'd be a terrible Housewife. P.S. If this makes me sound preachy, I apologize. I've lived with and around so many people who deal with illness and setbacks with such bravery, my standard for what makes someone a role model is very high. I would never hit it myself.

I'm just going to say, the numbers of women IN THIS THREAD who have had fibroids and surgery shows you just how common it is. I had fibroids, I had all the awesome insane bleeding stuff, at one point my hemoglobin was 7.4, which my doctor pointed out was so low that if I had lost all that blood at once, I would not have been able to stand without fainting. So I get Bethenny's symptoms and it is unsettling. Also, it's different for everyone, and I'm not going to dictate how anyone else, including Bethenny, should respond. I ultimately had a myomectomy because at the time I was still hoping to get pregnant and it was the best pregnancy-preserving option. My doctor said if I didn't care about preserving fertility, getting rid of them was very simple (this is the mechanism Cynthia used - more of a laser approach). Where I sigh, a bit, is that Bethenny is acting like this is all SO dangerous and SO frightening. Again, everyone is different, but in my case, I knew so many women who had dealt with the exact same issue (in a team with about 35 women, I was the fifth one to have the surgery in two years). I was never worried or upset or scared -- just frustrated and tired of the hassle. (It really is stressful when you have a big presentation to give, which is going to take two hours, but you can't trust yourself to get through it without ... you know.) So yeah, Bethenny in MY PERSONAL opinion is making a bigger production than it requires. But then again, "making a bigger production than it requires" is a core part of the Housewife job description. So whatever. Where I'm more irritated is her constant writing and rewriting of the Housewife Code of Conduct, of which she has made herself sole author arbiter (with Andy's approval). In Bethenny's code of conduct, housewives are required to be "real" and "honest" about everything going on in their lives -- including off camera things, such as what everyone did over the summer, or what Luann does off camera, or what Sonja does off camera. However, her own personal love life and family is considered off limits. (She doesn't put her love life on the show, she doesn't put her kid on the show, and she says this is her new policy: no personal life. ON A SHOW THAT IS ABOUT HER PERSONAL LIFE. And when she drags the OTHER wives' personal lives into every single minute.) And when Luann tried to point out her hypocrisy in the blog (dating married men), then she says "fine, open up my hood, I have nothing to hide," as if Luann has viciously exposed her, when all Luann did was point out that Bethenny was doing the exact thing she was accusing Luann of doing. So Bethenny is "real" when she's outing other people, but they're attacking her when they defend themselves. Or when she says that everyone has to be real, and tell the truth, and not fake anything; and when her supposed personal Housewife brand is authenticity and "I don't fake things for the camera." Yet in one of her many interviews with PEOPLE this week she is quoted saying, she doesn't take Housewife conflicts "off the court" -- meaning that what she says on the show has no bearing on what happens in real life, or how she feels about women in real life. But isn't the entire point that she is being real? These rules and contradictions make my head spin. But hell. Maybe we can chalk it all up to blood loss.

I agree. And I keep being reminded of the very first WWHL after her first episode back, when a caller said to Andy that Bethenny seemed like Jill Zarin, and Andy was visibly upset and surprised. I think he finds Bethenny charming and delightful, as she does herself, and neither one of them can understand the backlash. I also remember that in Season 3, in the Bethenny vs. Jill debacle, and then on Scary Island, the viewers (including me) were all very pro-Bethenny, and she said constantly, "The viewers get it. The viewers see it." Yes, they do, Bethenny. How do you like that now? Totally agree. You said in one short paragraph what I took about 3,500 words to convey. The power dynamic is wrecking the show, and even more because production is trying to cover it up. Like I said, I'm all in for a show about how women navigate crazy power dynamics, and how one woman wields incredible power, but the edit is trying to tell a different story - about how a brave, plucky truth-teller calls out bad behavior around her - and they're telling not only the wrong story, but they're telling a lie. And what gets me even more hyped up is knowing that the reunion will never address this, but will double down on the original narrative, and try to convince all of us that Bethenny (poor, sick, plucky, single, fibroid-riddled Bethenny) is like us. Spoiler alert: Bethenny, you're not like us. One other small thing that occurred to me. I was reading Shonda Rhimes' book A Year of Yes, and she talks about how because of her insecurity, she was starting to freak out about being asked to appear on Kimmel Live. But she realized, as she was doing it, that this behavior was not acceptable. As she put it: "The things that you can do when you are at the bottom of the ladder change as you move up. At the top of that ladder, doing many of those very same things makes you an a--hole. I'm being an a--hole." Bethenny is still acting like she's the plucky, single working class girl speaking truth to power. But that's not who she is anymore, and that's not what she's doing any more. That behavior that seemed like Greek Chorus now is amped up to where it is coming across as abuse of power. We can see that, Bethenny (specifically the employee hired to read this board) and Andy (aka the production intern). We can see it no matter how you try to cover it up. And last thing: stop telling us how great the ratings are. Umbelina published a link to the ratings over all the seasons. They're rising over the course of this season, which is great, but they're still WAY below where they were in Season 4 OR Season 5. They're just starting to get higher than where they were last year. And the lowest rated episodes of all time, since the show got successful? The Bethenny-focused episode last season (All In The Family or whatever) that featured her reuniting with her stepfather and moaning to her therapist; AND Part 3 of the reunion, when apparently many people agreed with me that the reunion was nothing but another episode of Bethenny's talk show, and didn't feel the need to watch it.

I have such mixed feelings about this season. On the one hand, it is getting the ONE core ingredient of a housewives show absolutely right: interesting conflict featuring strong personalities. Say what you will, these women have got personality to spare, and for the most part, their personalities appear capable of featuring more than one emotion, and therefore can sustain more of our interest. I also like that the conflicts are at the right level of seriousness, not life or death but also not completely inane (yes, RHOBH Season 6, I'm talking to you!). Is Luann guilty of claiming ownership of Skinnygirl but NOT owning her "sluttiness"? Speaking of, what is the difference between a cow and a girl? Did Luann call Carole a pedophile at a children's charity? Is it or is it not Dorinda's birthday, and why doesn't anyone care that she made it nice? I have watched each of these episodes more than once, and that is a very good sign. BUT. And there is a but. A giant but with a capital B. It's obvious Bethenny is running the show. I get it: she's reality TV gold, either unafraid to look bad on camera, or unaware that she's looking bad, OR confident that the edit will protect her. (I think it's all three, to be honest.) Bethenny's willingness to instigate conflict, and to handle it directly when it arises, is directly opposite the position of, say, Lisa Vanderpump who wants to keep all her interesting actions offscreen and collapses in a puddle of self-pity when anyone tries to engage her. So that's a strength. But...look, we all know that there are behind-the-scenes dynamics that drive these shows. But the power dynamics here seem particularly pungent. And it's threatening to overwhelm the narrative. Most of the relationships on this show are driven by ONE unnamed factor: Bethenny. Every single wife is well aware that her relationship with Bethenny, and Bethenny's opinion of her, is the primary determinant of whether she gets to stay on the show. You can look at every woman and see it, quite clearly. For instance: Carole. Carole is in the catbird seat; she is not only Bethenny's "best friend" for filming purposes but, not coincidentally, she is offscreen friends with Andy. Carole has the confident, immune air of one who knows that she is in no danger at all. She's always had a bit of "above it all" about her, and now it's literally true. (You will note that this list goes from best edit to worst edit, and it also goes from Bethenny's most favorite to least favorite cast members. This is not an accident.) Ramona. Ramona knows that the season she got the best edit was Season 3, when she and Alex formed Bethenny's clique. So Ramona is going right back to that well. She threw over Sonja, walking away from a long term friend in favor of a professional alliance. We see this again and again and again: Ramona asking Bethenny how she should apologize on last season's reunion, Ramona sucking up to Bethenny nonstop in every scene, Ramona telling Luann and Sonja what they need to do to apologize to Bethenny. These two have a mutual-best-interest strategic alliance, where Ramona uses Bethenny to stay on the show and Bethenny uses Ramona to make her look sane by contrast, like the Bethenny we loved back on Seasons 1-2. Ramona: second best ally, second best edit. Dorinda. Dorinda is an excellent example of the Bethenny influence. At the beginning of the season, Bethenny attacked both Dorinda and John viciously, INCLUDING outing John as a cocaine user on camera and coming very close to doing the same about Dorinda. That is way over the line for this show, but Dorinda let it pass. Probably informed by her producer, she knew if she got into a fight with Bethenny, or tried to go tit-for-tat on drug allegations, she would lose. So instead she focused her wrath on Ramona, for no good reason. Ramona says she doesn't like John, Bethenny says John is a gross drug user, and you're mad at Ramona? Please. Plus, Dorinda worked very hard to justify not inviting Sonja to the Berkshires, without saying on camera the simple fact everyone knew: if Sonja came, Bethenny wouldn't, and the trip might not even happen. Finally, in this episode, Dorinda admitted the truth, saying at Ramona's party "if Sonja came, other people wouldn't." Wow, what "other people" would you be referring to, Dorinda? My favorite part of watching Dorinda this season is seeing herself tie herself into a knot to explain why she considers Bethenny a good friend, and why she is forgiving Bethenny, when she went nuclear on Heather last year for walking into a party ahead of her. It's also worth noting that ever since Dorinda stopped fighting with Bethenny, Dorinda's been getting the "voice of reason" edit. This is not an accident. And Dorinda knows that. . Jules. Who? This is Bethenny's attitude towards Jules, so it's ours also. The only time Jules has had a good scene was around eating disorders, and don't tell me the purpose of that wasn't to give Bethenny (and Carole) a chance to explain to the camera the difference between their kind of skinny (natural! healthy!) and Jules'. It's also interesting that one thing everyone knows about Bethenny is that she has struggled with eating disorders, or at the very least, has dealt with those rumors, but this season, no, no, no, Bethenny knows about eating disorders only by watching others, like Jules and her Mom. You're telling me not one housewife had anything to say about the irony of Bethenny of all people attacking Jules for disordered eating? Bethenny of the "here I am wearing my kindergartner's pajamas? When it was the first response of every commenter who saw the storyline? Okay. Got it. Luann. The good news here is that as one of Bethenny's two foils, Luann is guaranteed screen time, as the antagonist. For someone who is getting paid literally by the scene, this is good for her! Hence, the reason I don't think she's totally wound up about Bethenny picking fights with her. It just gives her more scene opportunities to wear her Countess Collection on camera. (I am desperate to meet just ONE person who would be buy that red jumpsuit; wearing it ironically doesn't count.) However, there is a price to be paid for being Bethenny's antagonist. Namely: the edit will never show your side. What is most fascinating about Bethenny's fight with Luann is that a) Bethenny claims it is a fight about hypocrisy, and b) BETHENNY IS THE HYPOCRITE. One thing you cannot say about Luann the last few seasons is you cannot say that she doesn't own her "sluttiness". Luann got new life on the series when she slept with the pirate, and ever since then, she's been letting her freak flag fly. Bethenny herself said last season that Luann is the "anti-Countess" now. I don't like Luann, I never have, but it's just a fact: the last few seasons have been ALL ABOUT Luann on the prowl, how much game she has, how many men she sleeps with. You can't say she doesn't own it! I also don't buy the "Luann claimed Skinnygirl" thing. What Luann tried to say was that she was there -- ON CAMERA -- when Skinnygirl was introduced to the world. It was a scene between the two of them. That was not when Bethenny came up with the "recipe", but it was when the world saw it, and I guarantee that until she heard the response from viewers, Bethenny had not thought to monetize it. She was still selling her cardboard cupcakes all through Season Two! But yes, people loved the idea of a skinny girl margarita, and Bethenny, to her hardworking credit, busted her butt to make the absolute most of it. All Luann was trying to do was make the point that it DID begin with the two of them on camera together, talking about it. Had Luann not filmed that scene, had Bravo not aired that scene, we would not have the brand. (Oh, for a world). I think it's ridiculous of Bethenny to get so wound up about it, although to be fair to her, I think that was because she had just dealt with the Sonja thing, and she was coming from a place of "would these wives please get off my coattails." Speaking of Sonja.... I wrote extensively about Sonja in an earlier post; suffice to say that Sonja (through her partners I suspect) tried to use Bethenny's name brand to advance her own cause. Bethenny shut that down, eviscerated her on camera, and so far, has shut her out of the show. If Luann is the foil that Bethenny will engage on camera, Sonja is the adversary that she won't. So Sonja, who I also don't like, is left twisting in the wind, abandoned by her BFF Ramona, and her only ally being the other Bethenny antagonist. And in the end, this is my bigger issue. Bethenny is the hypocrite, but no one will talk about it. Bethenny is, as we all know, dating a married man - the married man of her high school BFF, no less. So how does she get off attacking Luann on camera for a) dating married men and b) being a hypocrite and not owning it when that is exactly and precisely what Bethenny is doing? It's absolutely insane. Attack Jules for an eating disorder, but pretend you never had one; attack Luann for dating a married man and not admitting to it, when you're doing the same; even attack Dorinda for taking drugs when if certain rumor mills are to be believed, you have your own Adderissues? I don't know Bethenny, I don't know what she does. But I am SO TIRED of her attacking these women using off-camera evidence, when the same evidence will never be used against her. It's sort of a basic unfairness. And it's what is bothering me about the show. Every thing that is going on is about Bethenny, at its core. It's Game of Thrones, and what it's really about is how Manhattan women navigate social power, and how one woman wields it. I'm actually kind of into it. I just hate that the thing feels rigged, because the unseen judge is not the audience, but Andy and production, and the whole outcome is pre-determined. I think it's a simple fix. Pull the curtain back one notch further. You want to let Bethenny state her truth? Let Dorinda, Luann and Sonja state theirs. This episode felt like it was sidling closer to that: at Ramona's party, once Bethenny left, the women were coming pretty close to saying the core of the issue here is Bethenny's anger is keeping Sonja from being part of "the group." But the problem is that the two people (Luann and Sonja) who are antagonists are ALSO the two wives who are being paid scene-by-scene (hence Sonja's real anger about Berkshires; as she said in her blog, being left out of that trip 'cost her.' in other words, they have no power to wield. I wish they'd bring back a Heather character and let her provide a genuine counterpoint. (Fat chance; production had Heather last season and twisted themselves into pretzels giving her a villain edit for offering Bethenny a meatball and inquiring about her kid.) Let Bethenny be Tywin Lannister, but you have to give her a real foil, someone else with power and clout, or we're just watching one person holding all the cards and all the weapons and all the power, bullying the minions. I mean, I like watching Manhattan wives try to deal with an insane power dynamic. I like watching them try to navigate their way through a very rigged playing field. It's interesting. I guess my thing is, it's a bridge too far when the narrative states that Bethenny is a truth teller and Luann is a hypocrite, because those things are simply not true. The whole thing is a house of cards. Maybe the fun is watching to see when it falls. P.S. I think Bethenny is feeling the backlash; her blog this week started in with her "I'm dealing with a major health crisis" narrative, which is a great card to play when you might be in danger of losing the audience sympathy. Almost as lucky for her as when her Dad died in Season 3, cementing her victory over Jill! (sarcasm emoji, please, as one who lost a parent not so long ago AND who suffers from the same health issue as the one Bethenny is rumored to have, I am not making light of either one, but geez, timing-wise and narrative-wise, Bethenny lucks out.) P.S.S. Apologies also for the insanely long post. Previously.TV should charge by the word. (No, please don't.)

Aw, thanks! Better than cronut batter is such a compliment! But was it better than playing around with a watermelon radish?

Hi Jade Foxx! I know a lot of people agree with you, and you might be right. I don't like Bethenny for a whole lot of reasons, and I have been really turned off by her behavior since coming back onto this show. However!! I have to admit. I loved Bethenny in this scene. In fact, this scene was one of my favorite housewives scenes ever, and I think this may have been one of my favorite episodes ever. The full gamut of emotions in one episode, it was like Les Miserables, condensed into 43 glorious minutes!! But in the Bethenny/Sonja scene, I'm going to admit, I'm Team Bethenny. Here's why: Bethenny and The Use of Strategic Anger. Whether it was Sonja or Peter, SOMEONE clearly tried to get attention for Tipsy Girl by coming for Bethenny and SkinnyGirl. They knew the best way to get attention for their brand was to stage a fight with Bethenny over brand infringement. That's what it was. And Bethenny knew it. And she shut. it. down. She was calm, direct, and in control, AND I think she was very deliberately angry. By which I mean: she decided how angry she was going to be, to maximize her impact, and she was exactly that angry. She wasn't going to be LESS angry, because then they might have tried to keep it going. She was going to use her power - the power of verbal evisceration, which is something that frankly would earn her a spot on the Avengers - and she was going to deploy it to cut Sonja good. She didn't raise her voice. She didn't shout or lose control. She was calm and she was vicious - but it was strategic, and smart. And frankly, it was a great example of exactly how women need to get angry, in business, in my opinion. No one can say she was being "emotional" and no one can say she was being a people pleaser. She had to protect her brand, she had to make sure that no one tried to play that game with her again, and she did it. And then she left the scene. She titrated her response for maximum impact. I don't like Bethenny most of the time, but I liked her very much in that scene, and in this scenario. (I agree that having her assistants sitting there was probably harsher than it needed to be, but eh, Sonja did all her stuff WAY in public, so I'm not going to harsh on her. And I am a busy business woman myself, but I would work for Bethenny for one month (no longer) in exchange for the chance to sit behind them and eavesdrop on that one meeting.) (Also note: someone I worked with tried to mess with my business once, a man, and I had the same kind of thing. I decided ahead of time exactly how mad I was going to get; it had to be mad enough that he didn't try to pull it again, but not so mad that he or anyone could look at my response and say "oh, she's just being emotional," and discount it. So I'm probably a little biased.) Sonja and the limits of empathy. Sonja has long had a reputation for being sweet and kind and harmless - people like to say "she would never be mean." I think this dates back to the first season, and Scary Island, when Sonja showed compassion for Kelly. But I'm here to say: I have never bought into this narrative of Sonja. Here's what I see: a "hostess" who married a VERY rich older man, cheated on him, got tossed, and has been living with this incredibly bizarre sense of entitlement ever since. She's displayed cruelty many times, in my opinion - her treatment of Alex and Simon, who she thought beneath her; her treatment of Heather last season, when she realized that Bethenny owned the show and Bethenny didn't like Heather. Sonja is a nasty piece of work when she thinks she has the upper hand, and she always has been. She had that movie judgement suit against her - as Phillip Marlowe noted - because she LIED to and then THREATENED the people she STOLE from, and that is in court documents. She has never done a lick of work on anything, but announces one venture after another, and then expects money to fall into her lap. Even in this scene, when she started the meeting, she said to Bethenny, "I want just a little piece of what you have," but she doesn't want to do ANY of the work for it! I was frustrated on Heather's behalf last year - and I would give anything to hear what Heather probably said behind the scenes - when Sonja was pretending to launch a fashion line, without knowing a thing about it, and then ANDY criticized Heather at the reunion for doubting Sonja and being mean to her, when all Heather did was make exactly the same rational points that Bethenny made today. I did have a flash of empathy for Sonja when she started crying; but it faded quickly, when I realized that she was only playing the pity card because she realized she had been caught out. There have been WAY too many scenes of entitled Sonja over the years for me to buy her as anything other than an aging, lazy, entitled woman who wants to live the high life without doing a lick of work, and think the world owes it to her, because she's capable of playing charming or funny. To her credit, she's made as much money off that as she possibly could - short of keeping her husband in the first place - so she's lottery-level lucky. But she's not going to get an ounce of sympathy from me. And for the record - I haven't even gotten into Rey, but my GOSH, I watched this episode with my mouth literally hanging open. I will watch it again and again for all of my days. Riveting television.

HAHAHAHAHAHA this is excellent. I can't figure Carole out this season. Except to say it's interesting how some friendships bring out the best in people and some the worst. Carole and Heather's friendship made me like them both more; Bethenny and Carole makes me like them less. It might be as simple as the exclusionary nature of their relationship. I will say that is absolutely Bethenny's modus operandi and has been since Season One. The first two seasons it was her and Jill Zarin as the cool/mean girls (depending on your perspective) running the show, and it was Kelly they eviscerated. Last season Bethenny worked overtime to build a tribe that excluded Heather and Kristen very specifically - Heather presumably because she was a threat as a smart businesswoman; Kristen because she was pretty and reasonably sane. Bethenny only wants to be surrounded by yes people or crazy people. Ramona is perfect because she's both; she's too crazy to be a threat as fan favorite, AND she's a yes person who agrees with everything Bethenny says. And Carole's a full on acolyte. It doesn't surprise me that Carole is a yes person to Bethenny, because Carole's pretty laid back (I don't know if she IS stoned 24/7, but she gives that impression). It does surprise me that Carole is an attack dog on Bethenny's behalf. That bit seems out of character. I also agree with the astute commenters who noted that Luann's weird and desperate behavior at Ramona's birthday party was all about her panic at being ostracized by Bethenny, and evicted from the show. The unspoken "power of Bethenny" is the defining dynamic of the season, especially after they all bore witness to what happened to Heather last year, and it's both fascinating and disgusting. More so because we will NEVER get to the bottom of it, because Andy will never in a million years allow any of the wives to state the truth. Edit: I feel the need to clarify that I was not on Kelly's side - I really liked Bethenny her first few seasons, for all the reasons many of you have stated, and Kelly was ridiculous. But Bethenny's whole dynamic of creating cliques and ostracizing outsiders, that's been Bethenny from the beginning. The difference is, it was more acceptable when she was doing it from a position of vulnerability, as the young woman trying to make it, versus what she's doing now, from a position of absolute power. Ramon's party showed nothing so clearly as every single woman in the room - even the ones not on the show - orienting themselves around Bethenny. She's not just powerful, she's vicious, and everyone is terrified to end up in her gun sights. Jules, quite literally, was almost shaking in their first solo scene. It's an incredibly bizarre dynamic, and it's driving everything that happens on the show, even if Andy and Bethenny would prefer that we didn't notice it.

I've been spending way more time thinking about this than I should and here's what I've got. I think Andy has too many agendas, and they're corrupting each other. He is the host of the reunions, where his sole job should be as an interviewer, to get at the truth of the matter. But, as he himself said in his book, he is also in those reunions as the producer of the show, trying to wear both hats. And I think where the show has really gone awry is Andy now uses the reunions to try to confirm HIS chosen narrative, as the producer of the show with a personal perspective on what makes good TV. So you get things like his attempt, last season, to redeem Brandi at the reunion so she could continue on the show. He spent the entire reunion reading "viewer questions" about why Lisa didn't forgive Brandi, or why Kyle was mean to Brandi - when we all certainly know that was not the primary thing viewers were talking about. Or you get this season on BH, when the viewing public (going by twitter, reddit, reality tea and this board) was all-around fed up with Yolanda, Eileen and Lisa Rinna, but all the "questions" targeted Lisa Vanderpump, and even Andy himself worked hard to make Eileen's point for her. He was trying to balance out fan reaction so he could set up a better dynamic for next year. Or the Orange County reunion (which was a great reunion), with Andy constantly interrupting the other women's interrogation of Vicki to try to protect her, so she could also continue on the show. Or of course last year's NY reunion, which was - as the entire season was - the Bethenny show. Every segment ended with Bethenny interrupting to proclaim the final truth. Because Bethenny is the hero of the show and Andy is going to make damn sure we know it. I even thought it was so funny at the very outset of that reunion, Heather made several very firm points, and Bethenny said to her "man, you are loud today," and Heather said "I have a lot to say and I'm just getting started." Bethenny said "You're just too much." And Heather said "Get used to it." And for the next three hours, Heather hardly said anything, and Bethenny talked nonstop. I'm sure Heather did talk - but it was of course all edited so that only Bethenny spoke. And while Bethenny expressed anger at Heather for talking, obviously, Bethenny talked nonstop. This would all be GREAT TV if Andy didn't work so hard to cover it up in order to promote the storyline/narrative/positioning he has already decided is best. I also think this problem is worse in NY than in any other city, because Andy has personal relationships with two of the wives. It has completely affected and infected the dynamic, and it shows on screen. The smart ones - like Heather - see there is no way to win, and get out. The desperate ones - like Ramona and Luann - try to adapt to the new environment, groveling at Bethenny's feet so they can stay. While Carole and Bethenny, the chosen ones, float above it all, knowing they are protected by their relationship with the boss. Here's the shame: this could be such an easy fix. All we want is authenticity. If Andy would stop trying to control our reactions, or dictate our responses, by rigging the reunions and the show itself, he would get the show he's going for. Hell, as I said, Bethenny can even be the star - she's great reality material. She's just not the hero of this story.

Totally agree with this. A good friend of mine had a rotten divorce, her husband was a deadbeat who refused to work (despite having no disability whatsoever), wouldn't take on any of their joint financial debt even though he ran up most of it, wouldn't pay child support even though he demanded joint custody... it was ripping her up. At one point I said to her, "Maybe just look at this as the price you paid for having your two boys. You'd pay anything to have them - this is just what you paid." And she said, "Yep" and she settled the divorce and just sucked it up. Now we laugh, "Man, those kids were expensive, but so worth it!" Like many of you here, I loved Bethenny in her first run on RHONY, fell out of love with her during her spinoff, but was so excited for her return. Now I can't stand her. I do appreciate, after the most boring season in history over on Beverly Hills, that the RHONY ladies are at least willing to engage in conflict on camera - I really do. I think what I struggle with is that they've got the narrative wrong. Bethenny is the villain of the show, not the hero. She is a bully, a hypocrite, she's mean and nasty and picks on people. Which, by the way, makes for great reality TV! They have all the elements that are needed for a great season. BUT. But the disconnect for me is that they're editing her to be the hero, and you can tell that Andy thinks she's the hero, and that dissonance is off putting. You can't have her being so incredibly nasty to everyone with so little provocation, and then expect us to root for her. It would be like trying to position Donald Trump as the likable everyman. No one is buying that!! If they would just rejigger the show a bit, maybe make Dorinda the hero for a season (even though I couldn't stand her last year, her treatment of Heather was flat out bizarre), I think that might help. We need someone to relate to and root for against all the crazy - going back to the first season of Real World New York (I'm so old), you had Julie to guide us through the city. We need someone to relate to. Bethenny used to be that person. She's not anymore. And to quote Dorinda, you can't put a square peg into a round hole, especially if you're a triangle.

One funny thing I noticed - I happened across some old S5 episodes the other day, Aviva's swan song, and when that whole "asthma" storyline was going on, Carole said, repeatedly, "What she really has is Munchausen's!" And she recited the definition on camera, talked about it openly, including to Aviva's face. Yes, Aviva got mad. Nope, other castmates - including Heather - didn't agree with Carole, even though most of them thought the asthma thing was weird. But it was all direct and rational, as rational as an argument can be that ends with one cast member throwing her leg. :) My point here, to build on what you said, and going to this week as well: the NY women don't do fake drama. They state what they think, right up front, no fears, they "own it", and then they disagree/fight about it. Case in point: the argument this week was clear, what they were fighting over made sense, we could easily pick a side, it was funny, and direct. As opposed to RHBH where they're so terrified of their images and so controlling, the fights end up being about who said what offstage to control what happened ONSTAGE, and it literally makes no sense at all. Andy said in his book, I think, that this is a real problem with the RHOBH cast, because of their background in show biz, they are much more image conscious than any other series. This season, I think that fear took over the show. Contrast that to RHONY, where they are much more fearless. I don't love that Bethenny owns the season and I HATED what she did to the show last season. I used to love Bethenny, but I got over her when she got her spinoff; and by the time she had her talk show I didn't like her at all. I am very unsure of this season, mostly because I wonder if t's all going to continue to be rigged on her behalf. But compared to RHOBH, well, there is no comparison, at least so far. Take note women: this is how you do Housewives drama. Fear less, talk more.