History vs Fiction: Diaries of Anne Lister

[Guest]

Discuss the real Anne.

[kieyra]

I’ve read the companion book now (the one with Sally Wainwright’s intro) and another, and both of them focus on diary entries leading up to the marriage with Ann Walker, but very little info after that. Does anyone know if more entries from their relationship exist?

Also, here’s this:

https://www.missedinhistory.com/podcasts/anne-lister.htm

Historical spoilers. 

[DevilsDetails]

Delurking to say I'm happy that the thread was resurrected. More on Anne Lister's pre-marriage relationships and post-marriage life is included in "Gentleman Jack: A Biography of Anne Lister, Regency Landowner, Seducer and Secret Diarist" by Angela Steidele. Not quite as sympathetic towards Anne as some of the others, but a bit more comprehensive regarding her life.

Ran across this interesting tidbit in one of the biographies: Although the Bronte sisters don't appear to have been acquainted personally with Anne Lister, they lived close enough to Shibden Hall that they were likely to have been aware of her and her reputation, leading some scholars to speculate that the character of Heathcliff may have been inspired by/based on Anne Lister.

[kieyra]

While reading a review of the finale, found a link to this article about Wainwright and the diaries:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/secret-code-behind-hbo-bbc-drama-gentleman-jack-1203554

The article suggests that 1) all the entries haven’t been decoded yet, and 2) Wainwright is actually reading the diaries in code and decoding them on her own. She says she’s been working on it for 20 years. (I don’t mean to suggest she’s the primary researcher, just that it sounds like she has her hands on copies of the coded works.)

[DanaK]

In relation to the episode in Season 2 where Anne tells her sister Marion that she won’t support her marriage to a sheep something businessman and any kids she might have won’t inherit the estate and Marion can only depend on her husband, how did Anne get her money, how was the estate set and why weren’t both sisters inheritors? I recall something about Anne being put in charge of Shibden by her uncle or grandfather because they didn’t trust her dad to be capable of it, but did that make Anne the only one who inherited the money and the rest of her family - dad, aunt, sister - dependent on her kindness to be able to afford to live? And how did Anne’s largess contrast or compare with the laws of the time? Given what we are hearing in the episodes, it’s clear women at the time didn’t automatically inherit from their husbands when the husbands died

[natyxg]

22 minutes ago, DanaK said:

In relation to the episode in Season 2 where Anne tells her sister Marion that she won’t support her marriage to a sheep something businessman and any kids she might have won’t inherit the estate and Marion can only depend on her husband, how did Anne get her money, how was the estate set and why weren’t both sisters inheritors? I recall something about Anne being put in charge of Shibden by her uncle or grandfather because they didn’t trust her dad to be capable of it, but did that make Anne the only one who inherited the money and the rest of her family - dad, aunt, sister - dependent on her kindness to be able to afford to live? And how did Anne’s largess contrast or compare with the laws of the time? Given what we are hearing in the episodes, it’s clear women at the time didn’t automatically inherit from their husbands when the husbands died

My understanding is that the usual practice was that one son would be chosen to inherit the entire estate to avoid splitting it up in too many ways. In the case of the Listers, that son was Uncle James. The others got some properties here and there, but not the bulk of it. It's why Anne's dad joined the military, probably, because he was the last son and wasn't going to inherit too much. Anne's family (meaning her parents and siblings) was actually the poorest branch of the family (which Christopher Rawson mentions in season one). Women were not usually meant to inherit things because they would automatically be passed on to their husbands, and on top of that the family estate would end up belonging to some other last-name family. If Marian were to inherit Shibden, for example, and have children with Mr. Abbott, her children would be Abbotts and therefore Shibden would not longer belong to the Listers.

Anne ended up inheriting Shibden because there was a big lack of male children in the family. Uncle James and Aunt Anne never married. Uncle Joseph married but I don't think he had any children, at least I don't remember them being mentioned in the diaries I read. Anne actually had four brothers and they all died young: one as an infant, one as a small child. Her brother John was expected to be Uncle James' heir, but he died of the flu at 14. Then Sam (who Anne mentions in the first season) drowned at 20 while in the military. Uncle James chose Anne as his heir because he saw that she was capable and because she convinced him that she would never marry a man. She also promised him that, like she tells Marian in episode 5, she'd appoint the Swansea Listers as her heirs. They were distant relatives, but still Listers. In regard to her own will and Ann, she left Ann the right to Shibden and its profits until her death (or until she married a man), then on Ann's death Shibden would go to the other Listers. Ann did the same: she gave Anne a lifelong right to the Walker Estate and its profits, then on Anne's death it would go to Ann's nephew. Btw, in a sad turn of events, Ann asked that her nephew keep the Walker name, but he didn't. He went by Sutherland-Walker for a while, but eventually dropped the Walker altogether. So the Walker Estate became the Sutherland Estate, which is the exact type of thing that Anne wouldn't have wanted for Shibden.

At the time we're at in the show, though Anne is the mistress and in control of the estate, the profits are split in three ways (as per Uncle James' will): Aunt Anne and Jeremy (Anne's dad) are each entitled to a third of the Shibden profits, as well as a right to live at Shibden (iirc) until their deaths. It's not until 1836, when they both die, that Anne fully inherits Shibden and all of its profits.

Marian, on the other hand, is Jeremy's heir in his will. Anne gives up her part of Jeremy's inheritance in favor of Marian, so Marian inherits Jeremy's personal properties, which aren't plenty, but enough to live on if managed judiciously.

One of my frustration with this season's insistence to show Anne's "faults" is that I feel so much context is lost and therefore she ends up coming across as worse than she was, imo.

Anyway, since we're here, might as well bring the diary entry for the Marian/Anne scene in episode five. The show was very faithful to it, though I do wish we had seen Ann consoling Anne afterwards.

Spoiler

dinner at 6 – coffee – Adney and I 1/2 hour with my father and Marian – then I returned to them to pay Marian for the last month and she kept me talking near one hour – 

did not like to deceive her family    I at liberty to tell A- [Adney] now one of the family and my aunt   it seems she has told my father and he knows that I know of it   but he neither gave any opinion or made any remark himself nor asked what I had said    she has made up her mind to marry Mr. Abbott    can make out his having two thousand a year out of trade but has made no inquiries   thinks it better to continue in trade and make more for fear of having too little for their children   they will continue therefore in Halifax    she suspects that the Haighs suspect it as one of them saw Mr. A- [Abbott] walking home with her some while ago   it was quite dusk or he would not have done it    and everybody knew her well enough to know she would not allow that without there was something serious   I merely said she knew [what] I should think and what I should do   I only made one request that she would not marry from here and that she herself would send the news to the papers   Halifax Leeds and York   styling herself Marian daughter of Jeremy L- [Lister] Esq. of Skelfler House in this county   she said she had meant to do it in this way   I said there would be no impropriety in her marrying six months after my father’s death   calculated that she might not have more than one or two or three children   that she was old enough to judge for herself   that I only feared the mortification might be greater to herself than to me   that I advised and wished her not to put up a hatchment for my father    not to stay long here after his death and not to ann[o]unce to me her marriage    it would be enough to see it in the papers    whatever I did I should do nothing from caprice or without a reason    that I sincerely wished her happy    that her best friend would probably [be] that person who mentioned me to her seldomest and that as for A- [Adney] and myself   her (Marian’s) name would never pass our lips to anyone    Marian was almost in tears    I could have been but would not    spoke calmly and kindly   said I should probably not tell my aunt as she would be much hurt and as many things happened between the cup and the lip perhaps the match might not take plece /place/    one of the parties might die   sat 1/2 hour with Adney she wondered what was the matter – and was as much astonished as I was – she consoled and calmed me – 20 minutes with my aunt till 10 – then talking to Adney till came upstairs at 11 – How strangely things turn out! But I shall get over it – Damp, rainy, windy day – rainy stormy boisterous night at 11 40/.. p.m. at which hour Fahrenheit 46° in my dressing room

https://insearchofannwalker.com/monday-1st-december-1834/

[DanaK]

30 minutes ago, natyxg said:

My understanding is that the usual practice was that one son would be chosen to inherit the entire estate to avoid splitting it up in too many ways. In the case of the Listers, that son was Uncle James. The others got some properties here and there, but not the bulk of it. It's why Anne's dad joined the military, probably, because he was the last son and wasn't going to inherit too much. Anne's family (meaning her parents and siblings) was actually the poorest branch of the family (which Christopher Rawson mentions in season one). Women were not usually meant to inherit things because they would automatically be passed on to their husbands, and on top of that the family estate would end up belonging to some other last-name family. If Marian were to inherit Shibden, for example, and have children with Mr. Abbott, her children would be Abbotts and therefore Shibden would not longer belong to the Listers.

Anne ended up inheriting Shibden because there was a big lack of male children in the family. Uncle James and Aunt Anne never married. Uncle Joseph married but I don't think he had any children, at least I don't remember them being mentioned in the diaries I read. Anne actually had four brothers and they all died young: one as an infant, one as a small child. Her brother John was expected to be Uncle James' heir, but he died of the flu at 14. Then Sam (who Anne mentions in the first season) drowned at 20 while in the military. Uncle James chose Anne as his heir because he saw that she was capable and because she convinced him that she would never marry a man. She also promised him that, like she tells Marian in episode 5, she'd appoint the Swansea Listers as her heirs. They were distant relatives, but still Listers. In regard to her own will and Ann, she left Ann the right to Shibden and its profits until her death (or until she married a man), then on Ann's death Shibden would go to the other Listers. Ann did the same: she gave Anne a lifelong right to the Walker Estate and its profits, then on Anne's death it would go to Ann's nephew. Btw, in a sad turn of events, Ann asked that her nephew keep the Walker name, but he didn't. He went by Sutherland-Walker for a while, but eventually dropped the Walker altogether. So the Walker Estate became the Sutherland Estate, which is the exact type of thing that Anne wouldn't have wanted for Shibden.

At the time we're at in the show, though Anne is the mistress and in control of the estate, the profits are split in three ways (as per Uncle James' will): Aunt Anne and Jeremy (Anne's dad) are each entitled to a third of the Shibden profits, as well as a right to live at Shibden (iirc) until their deaths. It's not until 1836, when they both die, that Anne fully inherits Shibden and all of its profits.

Marian, on the other hand, is Jeremy's heir in his will. Anne gives up her part of Jeremy's inheritance in favor of Marian, so Marian inherits Jeremy's personal properties, which aren't plenty, but enough to live on if managed judiciously.

One of my frustration with this season's insistence to show Anne's "faults" is that I feel so much context is lost and therefore she ends up coming across as worse than she was, imo.

Anyway, since we're here, might as well bring the diary entry for the Marian/Anne scene in episode five. The show was very faithful to it, though I do wish we had seen Ann consoling Anne afterwards.

  Hide contents

dinner at 6 – coffee – Adney and I 1/2 hour with my father and Marian – then I returned to them to pay Marian for the last month and she kept me talking near one hour – 

did not like to deceive her family    I at liberty to tell A- [Adney] now one of the family and my aunt   it seems she has told my father and he knows that I know of it   but he neither gave any opinion or made any remark himself nor asked what I had said    she has made up her mind to marry Mr. Abbott    can make out his having two thousand a year out of trade but has made no inquiries   thinks it better to continue in trade and make more for fear of having too little for their children   they will continue therefore in Halifax    she suspects that the Haighs suspect it as one of them saw Mr. A- [Abbott] walking home with her some while ago   it was quite dusk or he would not have done it    and everybody knew her well enough to know she would not allow that without there was something serious   I merely said she knew [what] I should think and what I should do   I only made one request that she would not marry from here and that she herself would send the news to the papers   Halifax Leeds and York   styling herself Marian daughter of Jeremy L- [Lister] Esq. of Skelfler House in this county   she said she had meant to do it in this way   I said there would be no impropriety in her marrying six months after my father’s death   calculated that she might not have more than one or two or three children   that she was old enough to judge for herself   that I only feared the mortification might be greater to herself than to me   that I advised and wished her not to put up a hatchment for my father    not to stay long here after his death and not to ann[o]unce to me her marriage    it would be enough to see it in the papers    whatever I did I should do nothing from caprice or without a reason    that I sincerely wished her happy    that her best friend would probably [be] that person who mentioned me to her seldomest and that as for A- [Adney] and myself   her (Marian’s) name would never pass our lips to anyone    Marian was almost in tears    I could have been but would not    spoke calmly and kindly   said I should probably not tell my aunt as she would be much hurt and as many things happened between the cup and the lip perhaps the match might not take plece /place/    one of the parties might die   sat 1/2 hour with Adney she wondered what was the matter – and was as much astonished as I was – she consoled and calmed me – 20 minutes with my aunt till 10 – then talking to Adney till came upstairs at 11 – How strangely things turn out! But I shall get over it – Damp, rainy, windy day – rainy stormy boisterous night at 11 40/.. p.m. at which hour Fahrenheit 46° in my dressing room

https://insearchofannwalker.com/monday-1st-december-1834/

Very informative, thank you. Who is Adney?

[natyxg]

4 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Very informative, thank you. Who is Adney?

You're welcome.

Adney is Ann. That's the nickname Anne uses for her (for some unknown reason that no one has figured out yet).

[gingerella]

On 5/26/2022 at 9:17 PM, natyxg said:

My understanding is that the usual practice was that one son would be chosen to inherit the entire estate to avoid splitting it up in too many ways

Its called entailing, and I believe Anne mentions it when she's dressing down Marion and mentions something about Shibden being entailed to the other Lister's. It's almost exclusively that family estates were entailed to the eldest son. It's why when we see the first episode of Downtow Abbey, they're all distressed about who will inherit Downton. IIRC the assumed person was just killed in war maybe?, and now the estate will pass to a distant relative they don't really know (Matthew). That's how it worked and why so many family estates went bankrupt. The eldest son spent too much, gambled too much, didn't pay attention and/or make good business decisions re the family estate holdings and it all went to shit. The worst thing was to have the the ship go down on your watch. Now-a-days many of the grandest old estates have many income generating businesses to keep the great manor houses going.