Malia Tate: She Used to Run With Cougars

[bluebonnet]

@Gwen-Stacys, sorry I'm not quoting you in this response but it just ended up making this post way too long and clunky.  I'm actually not sure how much of your recent posts are directed towards me because I didn't say a lot of the stuff you were responding to.  I offered my interpretation for one particular scene and also noted that I was fairly sure the writers weren't intending to make it come off dub-con especially in light of subsequent scenes.  I have also read that the actors aren't told much of anything about their characters beyond the script they are filming at the time, so Dylan may not have even had a clear idea of what he was meant to be conveying.  I objected to you comparing our interpretation to Jaime and Cersei because no one was implying that Stiles was indicating rape.  I was simply remarking on the dubious nature of it.  For me, there were valid reasons to consider the consent suspect, including but not limited to facial expressions, body language, and dialogue.  Very minor changes would have let the audience be absolutely certain that Stiles was just doing some man-complaining.  Now that we've seen more, I am finding that the romantic relationship between Stiles and Malia is the best the show has ever done.  I completely believe that these characters care about one another and they've done a good job filling in some of the gaps from the time jump to let us know how their relationship progressed. 

 

I didn't mention any of the other characters you mentioned, though I did bring up Kate and Derek in either this thread or another because it was relevant to the episode that had just aired at the time.  I also in no way attempted to vilify Malia/Shelley.  I did vilify TPTB for failing to be clear on intent and also failing to properly acknowledge instances of dub-con or other abuse in their show.  I don't mean that they need to release a statement after every episode or that they need to have a character say "this behavior is inappropriate" after every inappropriate act.  Something included in the script as a natural part of the dialogue would suffice.  As an example, a character pointed out that Derek was preying on young, vulnerable kids for his own benefit.  As a show and network targeting teens, I feel they have a responsibility to be clear about things.  

[ElleryAnne]

Actresses (mostly Shelley and Holland) are getting called fat and it's made me very defensive. Tumblr is worse than the Youtube comment section)

 

 

I'm totally with you on that one.  It's long been a pet peeve of mine that people resort to attacking a woman's physical imperfections and appearance when they dislike anything about her.  (That kind of attack is rarely ever aimed at men.)  I ranted about that problem a month or two ago on the Gender topic here on PTV.  And neither Shelley nor Holland are fat, anyway, not that that really matters.  Also, it's terribly unfair to target the actress when the problem is with the writing anyway.  You and I disagree on how Malia is written as a character, but I think we're in complete agreement that hateful remarks about the actress should be off-limits.

[Yitzhak]

 

nothing in their relationship screams dub/con in that Malia would force Stiles into something he very vocally told her he wasn't okay with. They don't tell you that on the show, they actually show you in the next two episodes. With her begging Stiles to go away because she doesn't want to hurt him or when they were studying and he slid her off of them so that she could go back to studying.

 

I think it's been well established in S4 that while Malia is the physically dominant one of the pairing, Stiles is the one who actually seems to be calling the shots. Stiles is constantly telling Malia what to do and how to be (and sometimes I want Malia to raise objections to this and not allow Stiles to always dictate her behavior). When Malia is struggling with her werewolf change and is ordering Stiles to leave, Stiles has the authority not only to stay against her wishes but to let her out of her chains before Malia was sure she was ready. Even if Malia has more physical power, I'd say Stiles ultimately has more power over what happens between them.

 

The relationship is still weird (Stiles/Malia are not meant to be normal couple) but it's more the owner/pet vibes that make it weird than any dubcon implications to me. Since it's established that Stiles can and will tell Malia "No honey, stop that. We humans don't do that." over any number things, I don't have any reason to think that Stiles would suddenly go all meek in the bedroom and just allow Malia to have her savage animal way with him. Maybe Stiles isn't cheerfully boasting about their sex life because he also considers that aspect of their relationship to be a 'work in progress' but I'd say it's still one Stiles is consenting to and in control of.         

Edited July 21, 2014 by Yitzhak

[Gwen-Stacys]

@Gwen-Stacys, sorry I'm not quoting you in this response but it just ended up making this post way too long and clunky.  I'm actually not sure how much of your recent posts are directed towards me because I didn't say a lot of the stuff you were responding to.  I offered my interpretation for one particular scene and also noted that I was fairly sure the writers weren't intending to make it come off dub-con especially in light of subsequent scenes.  I have also read that the actors aren't told much of anything about their characters beyond the script they are filming at the time, so Dylan may not have even had a clear idea of what he was meant to be conveying.  I objected to you comparing our interpretation to Jaime and Cersei because no one was implying that Stiles was indicating rape.  I was simply remarking on the dubious nature of it.  For me, there were valid reasons to consider the consent suspect, including but not limited to facial expressions, body language, and dialogue.  Very minor changes would have let the audience be absolutely certain that Stiles was just doing some man-complaining.  Now that we've seen more, I am finding that the romantic relationship between Stiles and Malia is the best the show has ever done.  I completely believe that these characters care about one another and they've done a good job filling in some of the gaps from the time jump to let us know how their relationship progressed. 

 

I didn't mention any of the other characters you mentioned, though I did bring up Kate and Derek in either this thread or another because it was relevant to the episode that had just aired at the time.  I also in no way attempted to vilify Malia/Shelley.  I did vilify TPTB for failing to be clear on intent and also failing to properly acknowledge instances of dub-con or other abuse in their show.  I don't mean that they need to release a statement after every episode or that they need to have a character say "this behavior is inappropriate" after every inappropriate act.  Something included in the script as a natural part of the dialogue would suffice.  As an example, a character pointed out that Derek was preying on young, vulnerable kids for his own benefit.  As a show and network targeting teens, I feel they have a responsibility to be clear about things.  

 

I would say that most of my post wasn't directed towards you. I think in an earlier post I admitted that you were right and that Jamie and Cersei weren't the best example...or at least I did in my head. I think I was more making an allusion to that scene because the writers/directors didn't mean it to come off the way it did in the final cut. The actors even came forward and said that they hadn't acted it out in a way meant to be rape (and it wasn't rape in the book...just weird in everyway you could think of it being weird.). If I came off as attacking I apologize. I was trying to explain why, to me, that scene didn't come off as being dub/con and I might have gotten very intense with it.

 

The villifying Shelley was more of a response to tumblr.

[Jack Kerouac]

 

Don't point out one badly written character just because she's new and you don't like a relationship she's in.

 

Thank you. It seems to me to that this is the reason for most of the Malia hate. It's just dressed up in a million different excuses.

[wayne67]

Personally I don't mind Malia the character, she's actually been growing on me as of late. It's just the Stalia ship I find problematic.

 

No it's not because I'm a Sterek shipper even though seeing that on screen would be amusing or a Stydia shipper, I don't think that ship is returning any time soon what with Lydia's desire not to date teens.

 

It's because Stile and Malia the relationship culminated really quickly, there was no relationship foreplay, no easing into the relationship at all. It's like Stiles here's a naked girl, you're dealing with mental issues due to nogistune possession and she's got issues from not being a literal animal any more, go have sex in the basement so you can be emotionally attached to her to be blackmailed by the demon fox in your head.

 

Stiles alternately ends up either being the guy taking advantage of a poorly adjusted female for sexy times ? which seems dodgy. Or Malia has no typical sexual/personal boundaries and Stiles ends up being her emotional chew toy. Or Stiles is her default parent guiding her behaviours, telling her right from wrong which comes across as a weird psycho sexual dynamic that's just creepy.

 

Maybe it's just me though. I usually am fine with avoiding deeper analysis of the logic underpinning supernatural based relationship. For instance Papa Yukimara and his 1000 year old wife could be considered somewhat dubious but since they're not front and centre and they're both hilarious it doesn't bother me.

 

Stalia still isn't resonating for me and probably wont resonate for me until I figure out where she's living now and it stops feeling like Stiles is trying to parent Malia while dating her because he's possibly afraid she might eat him. At the moment instead of seeing romance I see a weird co dependent relationship.

 

That being said this show does not do relationships very well so I'm not holding out much hope for the relationship to improve. As a result it's harder to enjoy Malia when her character doesn't really make much sense (which in a way is typical of all the the teen wolf characters to various degrees) and she comes along with all this emotional baggage that is barely addressed and is in a relationship with a main character that often feels forced.

 

Did that make any sense ?