S01.E04: Cyberwoman

[indeed]

Ianto Jones hides a very big secret at Torchwood - his half-converted girlfriend from the Canary Wharf Battle - down in the basement. He is quick to hire a Japanese doctor who believes he can "cure" her. But things soon go wrong, and the Cyberwoman's destructive powers are released to the whole of Torchwood. Upgrading is compulsory.

TOSHIKO: I used my initiative! I'm sorry!

JACK: When I want you to think for yourself, I'll tell you!

...

Oh, I love this episode. I can't help it. It's so bad, it's great! LOL. Just the sheer number of times the gang questions or contradicts Jack. And nothing is better IMO than Defiant Ianto. Except maybe Pissed Off Ianto slugging Jack. Or Pervy Jack macking on unconscious Ianto. Or Cyberwoman covered in BBQ sauce pecked by a pterodactyl. Or Cyber Heels. Or self-performed brain transplants. Or Ianto's beautiful Welsh vowels. Or Rhys wanting Gwen to video Wife Swap.

[itsmeyousee]

I love this ep, it's my fav ep by far. And for so many reasons not just Ianto even though that is the type of love and loyality i would want, bless his gorgeous welsh vowels and protective ways.

 

But i loved everyone in this, they actually made sense and i finally believed Jack was in charge of TW and could do the job. Sorry to any Jack fans but my first impressions of Jack all came from TW not having seen him in DW i gave up on the "new Doctor Who" before Jack came along. And i didn't believe Jack was in charge of anything in the first 3 eps of TW.

 

Metal bikins, BBQ sauce, dinosaurs attacking and apparently GDL looking bad while crying LOL none of that mattered but i do have one thing that was truly bad and to me it summed up why some of TW was truly bad. It's the " car rota " convo on the plass and it's not the convo itself but who says most of the stuff, Owen. Did anyone on this show bother to notice that JB towers above the other 3 people in the convo. Owen wouldn't have to move the seat or mirrors in the car if the chicks were driving but he would every single time Jack was driving. I have always wondered if the writers ever talk to each on the show but with this it's does anyone at all who works on the show talk to each other. How can no one have noticed that Owen's sexist convo about driving is really about height and he is of a similar height to the chicks ?

 

This has so many good scenes , up in the office when Jack is threatening Ianto, i just love all of their reactions and talk about chemistry JB and GDL are rolling in it. I believe the anger , hatred, frustration, confusion, betrayal ,determination just rolling off these guys. But also the others Owen is ready in jump in and fight, Gwen thinks she can handle Jack and Tosh is shocked by Jack. Utter chaos and it should be. I truly believe there is no right or wrong in this ep, it's just all sad.

 

It also two scenes one chilling and one completely lovable. Chilling is Lisa, when she says "run, we all did" that's a memory of what happened to all those people and look at the good it did her. And Rhys i fell in love with Rhys in this ep, he wouldn't love a guy that wants Wife swap videoed so he can watch it later LOL.

 

But this ep is about Ianto and i think all the qualities he has come through in this ep. "Tea Boy" or not this dude is smart and determined and loyal and protective and very strong. And he has had to be, to go through what he went through and the nightmare continue for months as he tried to save Lisa. But at no stage does he intend for anyone to get hurt and when they do he blames himself completely. I think his intentions matter and i also think that's why Jack will trust Ianto again.

[Captanne]

This is an amazing episode and made Ianto Jones possibly the richest character in the series, save only Jack -- even with ties that take him back to a cataclysm in Doctor Who, the parent franchise.

 

Whether David-Lloyd realized that and took the anemic writing beyond what the creative team had intended or there  was actual method in their madness, Ianto became a deep well of possibility.

 

Unfortunately, that was ignored by the Continuity Gods and then stupidly cut off in CoE.

[itsmeyousee]

I was listening to some old podcasts i had saved recently and one was with GDL and he talked about Cyberwoman and it was more about his nerves.. He said because this was he first "big job" he was really nervous that he couldn't reach the emotions he needed or that he would go too far and he wouldn't be believable. Personally i think he nailed it

 

 

[Captanne]

I think he nailed it, too.  (He is a terrible crier.  So what.  Any of us are good criers?)

 

What affected me more, though, was how he took the character from Cyberwoman and on for the rest of the series -- until he was lobotomized in CoE.  

Edited June 13, 2014 by Captanne

[Zalyn]

I'm starting my first rewatch (finished S1-2 a few days ago for the first time), and I'm wondering if the writers had the backstory for Owen already planned at this point.  When Ianto first reveals that he loves Lisa, Owen rolls his eyes and fidgets, which fits with the initial interpretation of his as a douchey jerk.  But

knowing that Owen was utterly crushed when his fiancee died, especially from a similar sort of personality/mind loss,

it could actually be read as empathy

and a discomfort at being forced to recall his own past

.  From what I'm seeing of BG, I would believe he played it as ambiguous intentionally. It's just a little touch that makes me enjoy rewatching shows. 

 

Another ironic hindsight revelation I had was seeing Jack sic Myfanwy (the pterodactyl) on Lisa

given that Ianto introduced Jack to Myfanwy.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Zalyn

[indeed]

Yes, that use of Myfanwy was cruel and a nice touch IMO by Chibnall to link those two episodes and their relationship together. Although, I doubt at the time Jack knew that would be an extra layer of hurt for Ianto. 'Cause season 1--not well planned out!

[Swansong]

 

I'm starting my first rewatch (finished S1-2 a few days ago for the first time), and I'm wondering if the writers had the backstory for Owen already planned at this point.

 

Probably not. Not only because s1 doesn't seem that well planned, but also I think they were playing Owen as the love 'em and leave 'em type who unexpectedly falls in love when he meets Diane. They play it as if love is kind of a revelation to him. I think if they'd already planned his dead fiance back story when they wrote s1 then Out of Time seems like an obvious episode to bring it up, not least because it would have ratcheted up the angst factor.

 

Is Owen sympathetic/ empathetic about Ianto's loss of Lisa? He certainly isn't in Captain Jack Harkness so who knows?

 

And yep Fragment's retroactively makes Jack siccing the pterodactyl on Lisa kind of ironic, but I suspect that was kind of deliberate.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

I don't think it was planned either but i always thought Owen was more doing a " oh crap" moment like this is going to end even more badly than he already thought and i do think he is being if not sympathetic then understanding. Which is constrasting Owen from Jack, cause Jack is on the back foot for a moment then it's back into "Captain Mode". And that's not a bad thing for Jack cause he can't allow emotions to cloud his judgement at that time.

 

As for Jack, ironic or cruel ? I tend to think more desperate than anything but i think it puts more weight on Jack apologising as they go up the lift and Ianto thoughts that Jack is a monster.

 

It's one of the reasons Fragments is one of my fav eps, Chibnall really did seem to go back and look at the actors and how they played certain scenes and all of the back stories made sense to what we had already seen.

[Swansong]

 

As for Jack, ironic or cruel ? I tend to think more desperate than anything but i think it puts more weight on Jack apologising as they go up the lift and Ianto thoughts that Jack is a monster.

When they're up on the plaza and Ianto tried to run back into the Hub and he holds up the gun and then Jack trains his gun on him I realized that means Jack has his gun when he sics the pterodactyl on Lisa which made me wonder why he didn't just use his gun and try and kill her.

[itsmeyousee]

When they're up on the plaza and Ianto tried to run back into the Hub and he holds up the gun and then Jack trains his gun on him I realized that means Jack has his gun when he sics the pterodactyl on Lisa which made me wonder why he didn't just use his gun and try and kill her.

Jack doesn't ever try to shoot Lisa, does he ? He just stands there and gets electrocuted, so that Tosh, Owen and Gwen can get away. And he had his gun then since he was just pointing it at Ianto.

 

Must admit i have never wondered why Jack doesn't shoot her, short ep maybe LOL

[Swansong]

I used to hate this episode. The annoyingly loud music, the absurd actions of the team, a sexified Lisa, the cheap feel to it all. But apparently time has worn me down because I don't find it as bad as I used to. I still find the music annoying and I'm still not impressed by sexified Lisa, I think it really trivializes what was done to her, but I really like the first 20 minutes particularly the interactions between Tanizaki and Ianto, the way Ianto sees her as human and a person while Tanizaki sees her as an object and a project. I do wonder what Ianto told Tanizaki to get him there since he clearly isn't expecting Lisa.

 

Is the coleslaw moment supposed to suggest that Jack and Ianto are doing it. Jack doesn't seem the type to worry about someone's vegetable intake as rule and if Ianto is just talking to talk then why not say my girlfriend wants me to eat more vegetables since he does still think of Lisa of his girlfriend.There does seem to be an attempt to lay the foundation for both Jack/Ianto and Gwen/Owen, but it's done in such a silly way. In the middle of a crisis Jack stops off to snog Ianto just so the episode can cut between Owen and Gwen snogging and Jack snogging an unconscious Ianto. I also find it a bit ridiculous that they have Jack snogging Ianto in this episode when there's zero reason for it, but when they do get together it's crickets.

 

Owen sees Jack electrocuted twice and questions how Jack is still alive, but that curiousity apparently doesn't extend beyond this episode.

 

The second half feels more than a bit meh to me. I feel like Ianto has to remain willfully stupid to what Lisa has become for far longer than strains credibility and actually starts to become annoying after a while to the point that beyond the creepy, sexual assault aspects of the kiss I actually got annoyed with Jack for pausing to "revive" him instead of just focusing on dealing with Lisa. Ianto clearly can't be reasoned with even though Lisa does nothing, but try to kill and convert people by that point  so he's nothing, but a liability. Maybe the problem is with the writing. It's like in theory I can see why Ianto might have a different perspective on Lisa because until she tried to cyberize Tanizaki she did seem like Lisa while Jack sees her only as a threat because that's how she only ever is to him and that is interesting, but the actual results on-screen are less interesting. Some of Ianto's dialogue is just awful and he comes off as kind of silly and childish banging on about Jack saving Lisa when her only interest is in killing or converting them so it makes it hard to retain much sympathy for him. Poor Annie kind of gets forgotten in all the Lisa/Ianto drama. It's probably not a big deal since the episode has bigger issues, but it did remind me that I wish the show was the kind of show that followed up on this kind of character detail. But ah well.

 

Lisa wanting to remain human for Ianto doesn't really work thanks to the middle part of the episode. It just doesn't gel with how Lisa is presented for the bulk of the episode once she's taken off the life support. The absurd brain transplant aside it's oddly one of the few times I feel like you get a real sense of the damage done to her. I think that kind of gets lost in the episode which is a pity.

 

I get that Owen and Gwen snogging is supposed to be a moment of levity, but the episode is already so ridiculous so I'm not sure it needs that kind of levity and while I generally defend the sex on this show  moments like this do reinforce the idea that the treatment of sex on this show is kind of juvenile and unnecessary. And poor Rhys. He's just idiot Mickey at this point. 

 

The end of this episode really makes me wish the show wasn't so fixated on Gwen because after all that drama and Ianto's behaviour it would have been nice to end the episode on a moment between Jack and Ianto. It's not like their story couldn't have benefited from it and it's not as if Gwen is exactly hurting for scenes and episodes that focus on her. I mean Ianto lies to Jack and the team for months and even during the height of the crisis chooses Lisa over the team repeatedly and afterwards Jack just lets him come back to work like it's no big deal.

[Dizzy76]

You bring up a lot of good points, Swansong and I think I really do see a lot of the issues of this episode as casualties of bad writing.  But even my first go round with the first half of series 1, I found myself rolling my eyes at some of the dialogue because it came off kind of cheesy and/or over the top.  Time away (and coming to terms with the writing being a "it is what it is" sort of thing), I can overlook most of it and focus on the intent.  So with Ianto, even though I agree that at a certain point, he would have gotten a clue - I just focus on the fact that I am suppose to surmise that he's just in such heavy denial.  I tell myself that he's spent so many months trying to save her that failure at this point is not an option for him and it's blinding him and making him stupid.  Making him make stupid choices.  It's all crumbling around him and he's grasping on and fighting till the very end.  Better writers would have gotten us to these emotional peaks with more finesse and subtlety but again...it is what it is.

 

I agree with you totally about ending the episode with the Gwen/Jack scene.  I actually wish they would have kept the original ending (at least I think it was meant to end the episode) with Ianto in the tourist office when Tosh comes in and offers him a coffee she's gotten just for him.  It was such a nice scene and it showed that even after the horror of Lisa/Cyberwoman, there was a team member who had heard what he'd said to them all about never taking the time to get to know him or appreciate what he'd been doing for them and was extending an olive branch.  I am quite sure that many a Ianto/Tosh friendship fics were born from that scene.

 

As for the Jack/Ianto dynamic, the very first time I watch this episode I just couldn't get over the fact that Jack was kissing Ianto the way he was in the middle of all the craziness going on.  And I got that he was suppose to be reviving him or sharing some of his life energy with Ianto but it was the way that he was kissing him that got to me.  It honestly pulled me out of the episode for a bit.  Now, whether it was down to direction because they powers that be wanting to plant the seeds for what would come between the guys or if it was just John taking liberties, it totally came across to me as Jack taking time out to let his emotions get the best of him while he's trying to bring Ianto around.  And because it was shown along with Owen and Gwen kissing, I wondered if the Jack/Ianto relationship was going to be revealed as having started before this episode but off screen (cause I already knew that at some point they would be dating onscreen). 

 

Honestly, my thoughts change from time to time about what was or wasn't going on with the boys before Cyberwoman.  Right now, my head canon is that there was flirting and Jack thought he was building something with Ianto (even though he was doing a terrible job at it) and that he would have considered them at least friends.  Friends with potential benefits.  And maybe a kiss or two might have been involved but in that accidental "in the moment" sort of way.  All that to say that the eating more vegetables conversation was there to show that for Jack at least, there was more there than just boss/employee.  And for me, it's also why Jack seems to be a little more betrayed/hurt/angry than if Ianto was just the guy who cleaned up after them and who he flirted with occasionally but otherwise didn't care that much about.  I doubt there would have been much talking from Jack and more action to destroy Lisa and ridding them all of Ianto's presence.  But no, he spends a bit of time trying to get Ianto to see that there is no way Lisa can be helped.  And instead of retcon or killing him, he only suspends him for 4 weeks.

 

 

I've got no good explanation/excuse for them dressing Lisa up the way they did and I agree that it does kind of cheapen how bad things must have been for her.  It distracts unnecessarily.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Captanne]

My hand hurts tonight so I can't go into detail -- but Lisa's outfit was an intentional homage to a current anime Japanese artist who does sexy robots.  You can find is work on Google.  

 

ETA:  Found him:  Hajime Sorayama

 

Here is the closest I can find tonight -- http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-20bIXJaKlgE/UI5dkGVRiJI/AAAAAAAAJC8/4PocPLz7pRc/s1600/137143-foxixol.jpg

 

NSFW  http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Hajime+Sorayama+Artwork+Gallery&FORM=RESTAB

Edited July 9, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

Heh! Jack hasn't exactly stuck me as someone who is all that observant about what's going on with his team so the coleslaw moment makes me laugh. Maybe it's the kind of bosses I've had, but I don't remember any of them taking any particular interest in my vegetable in take so I have to imagine one would have to be taking particular interest in you to be all that concerned with whether you're getting enough vegetables or not. And yet we have an early scene with Jack (and the rest of the team) ignoring Ianto while they play basketball and then go off to the pub which I presume is there to reinforce the assertion that it's not as if Jack ever took any interest in him or his life a few scenes later and Jack doesn't exactly refute it with a 'hey I cared enough to worry whether you eat vegetables or not' lol or something. And it doesn't really gel with what we've seen in previous episodes where, granted we don't exactly see a lot of Ianto, but we do see him eating and socializing with the team. But it does feel like something they want us to believe has at least some basis in truth in this episode. But then Jack's apparently willing to take a moment out of a situation he himself keeps emphasizing is a perilous situation to snog Ianto back to life.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

Hahaha, no you raise a really good point.  I think the "no one takes interest in Ianto" was so heavily emphasized in this episode cause they needed a way to explain how they all could have missed him hiding a cyberwoman in the hub.  And as for Jack, he's just acting like they always have him acting.  One minute he seems to be really aware that Ianto is around but the next you wouldn't be able to tell that they even knew each other.  In order to make everything fit in my head, I just have to tell myself that Jack didn't disagree with Ianto's claim because even if he were interested in him and was trying to move things further, he realized that he too had moments of idiocy where he forgot Ianto was around.

 

I don't think anything really works but that's the best I can come up with given all the contradictory things we get.

 

And no, I've never had a boss who cared about my veggie intake either, lol!

[itsmeyousee]

Well no surprise that i don't find Ianto stupid in any way. And love that Ianto never gave up personally, i don't want a Ianto that's indifferent to the suffer of someone he loves.

 

But i didn't think the coleslaw part meant anything. It didn't show me any great caring on Jack's behalf probably just something mention at lunch while stuffing his face. People tend to talk and notice what others are eating or not eating when when you are all eating together.

[Swansong]

 

Well no surprise that i don't find Ianto stupid in any way. And love that Ianto never gave up personally, i don't want a Ianto that's indifferent to the suffer of someone he loves.

I don't know I think there's a huge difference between doing all you can for someone you love and going the extra mile and being so willfully blind to the fact that they've become such a danger that people end up killed because of it. I'm glad showwise Ianto got to live another day, but I still think he got off way too lightly for his actions. Lisa wasn't going to stop until she was stopped and Ianto, despite all the evidence suggesting that, just doesn't want to see that until yet another person gets badly hurt.

[itsmeyousee]

Whether Ianto got he punshiment he deserved is a different convo to me. He isn't ignoring what happened but he wants options, he still just wants to save her. And i don't see that as a bad trait, yes the decision had to taken out of his hands because he couldn't do it and i don't want him to either.

 

 

 

 

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, even though I agree that Ianto got a little stupid at the end, I understand what they were trying to say about him and why Jack, despite his anger during the entire ordeal, gave him the punishment he did.  It would be different if Ianto just hadn't cared about the destruction and death that Cyber!Lisa was causing.  But that's not what it was about.

 

Also, Jack is someone who has unintentionally done some really horrible things and when we first meet him, he too almost cause massive destruction that could have destroyed the world.  And because he's had a whole lot of years of waiting, we later find out that there were some intentional stuff he'd had a hand in as well.  And that's not including his Time Agent days.  In we talked in another thread about Jack's forgiving nature.  I think part of the reason is because he's been there and done that many times over.

 

I'm quite sure anyone else would have given Ianto a harsher punishment and if Jack had followed protocol, Ianto would have at least been retconned.  But yeah, at the end of the day Jack understood.

 

Other Staff issues: Ianto Jones temporarily suspended from active duty, to return at my discretion. His love for Lisa clouded his judgment, and he made some serious mistakes - but I have to wonder if I would have done the same thing in his situation. Ianto's personal needs and emotional state have been overlooked; I should not have missed something like this. During his suspension, I will try to spend more time with him. Hopefully we can establish a closer working relationship.

[Swansong]

Well Jack doesn't really deal with anyone on his team regardless of how they behave as we learn. I still think if Suzie hadn't killed herself he would have just let her come back to work as if nothing happened. Part of that is Jack's forgiving nature. Another part is he's kind of a terrible leader/manager so he keeps relying on the fact that things will just magically sort themselves out so he doesn't really have to. He's just lucky in the end, thanks to his super power, that doesn't end with the destruction of the world. There's a vast middle ground between punishing someone harshly and not doing anything at all and Jack's default setting is doing nothing at all. But for me it's not even about punishing or not it's that sense that Jack would rather ignore any potential problems until they blow up in his face over and over. And for all the show relies on conceit of a character like Gwen, who is there to remind them how to be human/care about the little people, blah, blah, blah the show itself largely ignores the bodies they leave in their wake when they do something stupid or willful or just plain selfish so it's easy for us to forget too, which seems a bit ironic to me. But when I do think about it it does make the characters less sympathetic than I think they're supposed to be. At least to me. I think that's a real problem with season one.

 

 

Yeah, even though I agree that Ianto got a little stupid at the end, I understand what they were trying to say about him and why Jack, despite his anger during the entire ordeal, gave him the punishment he did.  It would be different if Ianto just hadn't cared about the destruction and death that Cyber!Lisa was causing.  But that's not what it was about.

Ianto spends a lot of time rationalizing Lisa's behaviour to the point of not really seeing what she's become. That's understandable because he's emotionally invested in her and wants to believe she can be saved. I understand that all too well. But for me that doesn't excuse the fact that two people die and it's only really luck and Jack's inability to die that it isn't more because he not willing to face the truth. My sympathy for him is mitigated by the fact that people die or are almost killed and he still chooses to rationalize her behaviour rather than face what is happening and even actively interferes when others try to deal with the situation.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

 

But for me that doesn't excuse the fact that two people die and it's only really luck and Jack's inability to die that it isn't more because he not willing to face the truth. My sympathy for him is mitigated by the fact that people die or are almost killed and he still chooses to rationalize her behaviour rather than face what is happening and even actively interferes when others try to deal with the situation.

Been thinking about this and I'm wondering if Ianto was just thinking that Lisa's situation was like say, Carys.  Carys left a nice trail of dead bodies in her wake but it was understood that it was out of her control - it wasn't really her fault.  It wasn't Carys that was ending lives but the alien gas within her.  I have no problem believing that Ianto had got it into his head that if they could just help Lisa, they could remove whatever cyber influence had a hold on her and save her.  That somehow, she was still in there somewhere and that if he just tried hard enough, he could bring her out enough to show the rest of the team that there was still a reason to fight for her.  Does that make sense?

[itsmeyousee]

It makes sense to me Dizzy. Ianto sees Lisa and why shouldn't he ? He has been caring for her for months now, she hasn't gone and killed anyone before Dr T meddled with her, why wouldn't he think she could be saved ?

 

And i disagree Swansong that he isn't seeing what's happening. Ianto yells at her about killing Dr T, tells her to stay away from the others and blames himself entirely for the deaths that occur. This is Ianto worst nightmare coming true, he wants it to end, he begs Jack to lock her up, just not kill her. And none of it was Lisa's fault, she was a victim of the Cybermen and that's what Ianto sees.

 

Was it hopeless ? Yes. Could Lisa be saved ? No. But that doesn't come into play unless you are being objective and how is a man, who has been trying for months to save someone he loves meant to be objective when it all comes crashing down around him. He can't he just wants her alive. To me Ianto is the type of person who would have looked after Lisa for the rest of her life, if that's what was needed. And i don't see he loyality as a bad or stupid trait.

[Luckylyn]

I firmly believe that taking care of Lisa and believing she could be saved was his coping mechanism for dealing with the trauma of Canary Wharf.  For all that time, he's only seen his Lisa and had no reason to believe she was dangerous to anyone.  Then, suddenly she's killing people, and Ianto goes in to denial because he's allowed saving Lisa to be his entire life.  If someone you loved and were devoted to suddenly started murdering people, I can see that causing a mental disconnect where it just doesn't compute.  I feel like Ianto and Jack both have responses in the episode that are understandable.

 

I agree that ending with a Gwen scene was a mistake.  I especially hated her asking Jack if he'd to the same thing to her that he'd done to Ianto  as if she were special.  The final scene should have either been Ianto and Jack or that deleted Tosh/Ianto coffee scene.  The writers need to make things Gwencentric even when they shouldn't is a major problem in the show overall.

[Captanne]

mousey, I would just like to quote everything you wrote and "thumbs up" it 50,000,000 times.  

[itsmeyousee]

mousey, I would just like to quote everything you wrote and "thumbs up" it 50,000,000 times.  

Thank you Captanne (smile) I also think Ianto's caring or loyal nature whatever term you choose ends up being a big part of his relationship with Jack.

[itsmeyousee]

I was watching this last night and i'm not sure but i think i noticed something new. Normally aside from the first time i watched but the end with Jack and Gwen. I normally don't pay attention LOL I just think bugger off this ep isn't about you LOL I want to see Ianto.

 

But for some reason i did pay attention and it's well all of Jack actually but mainly the question "have you ever loved someone that much" which is sorta a repeat of Ianto asking has Jack ever loved anyone. Now Gwen is all Gwack big eyes, soft voice, the please let it me face. But Jack has his eyes go to her direction but he basically just shrugs her off. There isn't any Gwack from Jack. Most of the time, he is looking at what i assume is Ianto, since Ianto was just there throughout the whole convo. The only time Jack isn't is when he is talking about dying and how he felt alive in that moment but he is more lost in himself really. For such an intimate convo Jack is looking at someone else. What do you guys see in that bit ?

 

Cause then i compared with Ianto asking the question and while Jack is trying very hard not to get caught up in the personal, he has to be the Boss and get Ianto to see and the rest of them really how bad this is or could be., but Jack never takes he eyes off Ianto. It looks like Jack would have answered no  but obviously he has loved people, i think it's just more that moment and he can't afford to be personally attached or let the convo get overly personal.

 

I just always assumed we ended on a stupid Gwack moment. Now i'm not so sure

[indeed]

Well, it was Jack and Gwen (with a side of Ianto), but it's not really a "Gwack" moment--although, Gwen probably interprets it to be. ;) I don't know, my focus is usually on Jack boring a hole through the glass watching Ianto and the nods. Oh, is Gwen there?

Edited September 1, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

 

But for some reason i did pay attention and it's well all of Jack actually but mainly the question "have you ever loved someone that much" which is sorta a repeat of Ianto asking has Jack ever loved anyone. Now Gwen is all Gwack big eyes, soft voice, the please let it me face. But Jack has his eyes go to her direction but he basically just shrugs her off. There isn't any Gwack from Jack. Most of the time, he is looking at what i assume is Ianto, since Ianto was just there throughout the whole convo. The only time Jack isn't is when he is talking about dying and how he felt alive in that moment but he is more lost in himself really. For such an intimate convo Jack is looking at someone else. What do you guys see in that bit ?

 

Lol! I'd say it's probably too early in the show for Jack to be all that in love with Gwen or even in love with her at all, but this is Torchwood where Gwen is apparently so wonderful people only have to be in her presence a second to just know that so maybe they are trying to suggest that or maybe it's supposed to be kind of ironic? in that she will become the person he ever loved that much. But I'll give the show the benefit of the doubt and assume they're not really that lame and assume because it's cyberwoman and this all ties back to Dr. Who and those other special snowflakes, Rose and the Doctor, that he's supposed to be thinking of them? But then again Jack is a man who's lived a long time who seems to fall in love at the drop of a cute face so presumably there have been a few people he's loved that much.

 

I definitely don't think they mean Ianto, not least because I don't think they ever intended Ianto to be a potential love, let alone a great one for Jack until they decided to kill him off ("think of the angst, people, think of the angst. It'll be fantastic") although, I suppose the scene and its framing (and Ianto's initial question) does take on an unintended irony for the couple depending on how seriously you take Jack bargaining for Ianto's life in Day 4 of COE and The House of The Dead in that Ianto does apparently become someone Jack 'loves that much' albeit unintentionally. 

[itsmeyousee]

Well, it was Jack and Gwen (with a side of Ianto), but it's not really a "Gwack" moment--although, Gwen probably interprets it to be. ;) I don't know, my focus is usually on Jack boring a hole through the glass watching Ianto and the nods. Oh, is Gwen there?

My focus is normally on what Jack is looking at Indeed and i want to see ianto. I think it's a Gwack moment from Gwen, she really is giving it her all, it's not that different from the look in TKKS with the song except she is waiting for the Gwen answer.

 

I think Swansong it's supposed to be not Jack in love with Gwen right then but she will be the one he loves. But then again if you look at Day One with Jack fawning over Gwens brilliance and his reaction to peck, swear it looked like first time he has ever been kissed LOL maybe he was supposed to be already in love with Gwen, who knows LOL.

 

What got me was it's a very intimate convo and Jack isn't interested in looking at the person he is talking to at all. There just isn't an ounce of Gwackness from Jack. To be honest it could have been Tosh or Owen talking except they don't know about the not staying dead bit, that's how uninterested Jack seemed in who he was talking to.

 

I didn't see it as a comparison between Ianto and Gwen with the same basic question and who Jack will choose but more a question of why Jack isn't looking at Gwen in the convo, since he had no problem looking at Ianto if that makes sense. Or what feelings you guys thought Jack was portraying with Gwen in that convo, cause my answer now is none. Gwen doesn't count at that moment for Jack but Jack is all for Gwen.

[Swansong]

 

What got me was it's a very intimate convo and Jack isn't interested in looking at the person he is talking to at all. There just isn't an ounce of Gwackness from Jack. To be honest it could have been Tosh or Owen talking except they don't know about the not staying dead bit, that's how uninterested Jack seemed in who he was talking to.

I think Gwen is just serving as confidant because she knows "the secret" so I agree it could be anyone. I don't think there's supposed to be anything romantic in it. I don't think it's like their scene at the end of TKKS. I think this moment is supposed to be more about Jack than them although I do think we're supposed to take how loyal Gwen is, but other than what she knows he doesn't really reveal much.

[itsmeyousee]

Gwen loyal ? To whom Swansong.

 

Cause in this ep she has returned Owens kiss and Owen is right, she was hardly struggling. And she is making very big doe eyes at Jack during the "have you ever loved someone" bit. And Rhys didn't get Wife Swap videoed LOL.

[Swansong]

 

 

Gwen loyal ? To whom Swansong.

Cause in this ep she has returned Owens kiss and Owen is right, she was hardly struggling. And she is making very big doe eyes at Jack during the "have you ever loved someone" bit. And Rhys didn't get Wife Swap videoed LOL.

Well I was talking from the show's point of view not my own. lol. Gwen asks Jack if he would have shot her if she'd stood with Ianto and he says, 'but you didn't' twice pretty emphatically. The implication seems to be that Jack has complete faith that she would never betray or go against him like that except, you know, for the times she does. They seem to be wanting to establish Gwen's loyalty to Jack (possibly as opposed his other team members) although why he'd be so sure of the loyalty of someone he hasn't known that long when this is the second time he's been blind-sided by someone he thought he knew I don't know. Maybe Jack just doesn't like dealing in hypotheticals. 

 

Certainly Gwen's loyalty to Rhys seems to wax and wane from episode to episode and even scene to scene, but I'm oddly not all that sympathetic towards Rhys and his Wife Swap woes, though. Has the guy never been acquainted with dvr or the timer? lol

Edited September 3, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

 

Gwen asks Jack if he would have shot her if she'd stood with Ianto and he says, 'but you didn't' twice pretty emphatically. The implication seems to be that Jack has complete faith that she would never betray or go against him like that except, you know, for the times she does.

 

I always took that moment as Jack not wanting to answer the question because Gwen might not want to know the real answer.  I mean ultimately, I don't think Jack would have shot her just like he didn't shoot Ianto (even though there were a few moments when he threatened to).  I never once took it as Jack being emphatically sure that Gwen wouldn't have betrayed him like that.  I'll have to re-watch that moment again with this new perspective.

[itsmeyousee]

Oh ok, cause i thought it meant if he had to Jack would have shot Gwen but didn't want to think about it, so he just shrugged her off. I never thought it was about Gwen and her loyality to Jack. I also think if he really had to Jack would have shot Ianto as well. That's the thing about Jack he will do the unspeakable to save the world no matter what it costs him. And Ianto saw this and hated Jack for it and that's why Jack backs down upstairs for a moment. Jack hates that part of himself but Gwen doesn't see it, she sees the hero.