Captain Jack Harkness: Who are you?

[Captanne]

"Angel"o was too busy being a Judas-Allegory.  

 

All they needed was a Mary Magdalene.  Would've fit the heavy-handed religious parallels perfectly and made the Dan Brownies happy.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

Didn't they do that story already including Mary sitting on her arse for 3 days while everyone else did the work, an ep called End Of Days i think LOL And my goodness Dan Brownies, i think i would rather read about Gwack . It might make my head explode slower LOL but be as equally daft, sorry to any who liked Da Vinci Code.

 

But don't you think if MD was all Jack past fault again, it would have been a great time to show this omnisexual dude they talk about. Cause i actually have no idea what Jack would be like with a chick, he doesn't come across as very equal in his supposed future forward thinking. If anything Jack is more like 1900's in his thinking, all rah rah for equality but doesn't act like it.

[Swansong]

I suspect the reason why we never really saw Jack with a woman in the first 2 seasons except as a past love was because Gwen was supposed to be the significant woman in Jack's life on-screen at that point. So they probably thought they were showing him in a romantic relationship with a woman albeit one where they never really kissed or had sex. They did get to swoon over each other and make eyes at each other and make romantic declarations to one another so I guess it counts if not exactly the way fans of the couple would have wanted. I think the reason why we never saw Jack so much as flirt with a woman in MD, though, was probably because of all the accusations after COE that they were degaying the show. So I tend to agree with Indeed that with all the backlash over making Jack too gay in MD if the show ever comes back we'll likely only see him with women until there's a backlash against that too. lol.

 

 

But don't you think if MD was all Jack past fault again, it would have been a great time to show this omnisexual dude they talk about. Cause i actually have no idea what Jack would be like with a chick, he doesn't come across as very equal in his supposed future forward thinking. If anything Jack is more like 1900's in his thinking, all rah rah for equality but doesn't act like it.

 

And yep they could have made Angelo an Angela or even made Brad a woman. Either one would have shown that Jack didn't just lean towards men, but maybe they weren't comfortable with the idea of Jack only being interested in a woman solely for sex. We've seen and heard about that when it comes to guys, but I can't remember if that's ever happened with a woman. They all seem to be love stories in one form or another.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

The Gwen factor Swansong is why i picked Angelo, he is the past. I very much doubt Jack could ever get a chick during the present with Gwen there even a one night stand. I doubt Jack would be allowed to check out a chick with Gwen there LOL.It just doesn't fit with Gwen is All in the RTD world.

 

The only chick i know of that Jack has told one of his "stories" about and even then it's sweet cause Jack references "Dating Her" was Stella in Deadline but he does refer to their sex life first.. I think even the nutty chick in Golden Age got more of a "love vibe". Jack is the least omnisexual dude ever, if he just enjoys sex with guys LOL

[Dizzy76]

I have no clue if there is actually anything to this but a part of me wonders if the difference in the way Jack talks about the women in his life versus the men is because of the way guys talk about and view relationships versus how women talk about and view relationships.  I hadn't really thought anything like this until reading Swansong throwing out the possibility of the show not being comfortable with Jack only being interested in women for sex.  That totally got me thinking. 
 

 

Firstly, is it possible that the show really did feel uncomfortable about framing women in a sex only light because of the way our societies tend to view women who enjoy no strings attached relationships?  I know things have gotten a bit better as the years progress but I'm constantly surprised at how much we as humans still hold on to old thoughts like that.  It seems to come out a lot more in online comments where you can remain anonymous.  Just like when discussing racial issues, people tend to feel they don't have to be as PC with their views on women and sex when they don't have to show who they are.

 

Secondly, I know it's a stereotype and that there are many men and women who are exceptions to this rule but based on what you see as being the "social norm" women look at their relationships in a more romantic light while men tend to express their interest in more physical ways.  Not to say that those same women can't be thinking about sex or that the men only find value in the relationship through sex.  But most movies and TV show seem to portray things in this way.

 

Carrying this perception over to someone like Jack, it just makes me wonder if subconsciously, the writers weren't falling into the same trap.  When Jack talks about past loves that were women, it's automatically dressed in a more romantic lens because that's how relationships with women should be handled.  And maybe, those relationships with women can be spoken about in more than just the physical because it was allowed to be viewed and discussed as more.  Outside of John (or am I forgetting someone?), we don't really get hints about Jack's relationships with people from the future so all the male's that we learn about are from the past .  A past where two guys being with each other is seen as wrong.  And from what I've heard from a few older gay men, some guys who were struggling with their sexuality could excuse hooking-up with another guy but putting any emotional attachment to it was a step too far.  So if this is all true, then maybe the stories Jack tells about his past boyfriends are more sex focused because that's the lens that they were seen through during the time Jack was with them.  Just a thought.

 

And I know that I said that these are stereotypes but I would be lying if I said that I didn't see them play out in real life.  I know women who love reading about sex but they want their sex stories told to them in a romantic pretty package.  And I know a few guys who feel a bit uneasy talking about their "feelings" for someone but have a much easier time giving the details about the physical stuff.  

 

Still not sure if I truly believe this is what is behind the Jack women/men discrepancy but it is what's floating around in my head right now.

[itsmeyousee]

I think you are probably right Dizzy, though i would refer to it as double standards. I don't think you can say everyone is equal but don't do that she is a chick. Much like the uproar at Rhys daring to yell at Gwen in Combat, yell i would chuck her to the kerb LOL

 

But they created this "omnisexual" concept but never followed through on it at any stage. Jack tells stories about aliens( who are boy ones), old boyfriends and some from John Harts time and some from the past here on earth. But there aren't any "there was this chick who could blah blah blah". I will leave it to your own imagination what she could do LOL. Stella from Deadline is the only one that i can remember Jack talking about their sex life but he mentions he dated her as well unlike guys mentioned. It's just so heavy handed, the difference makes the "omni" claim , bullocks really LOL

[Swansong]

The thing is they have had women on the show, Gwen and Tosh and Vera, who have had what would be considered just sex or a fling and I was going to say that they have shown women in one off purely sexual relationships, but now that I think about it feelings were also shown as a real component of those relationships too. It wasn't Owen using Gwen while really having feeling for someone else or Rex and Vera meeting up to have a hook up like Jack and Brad even though the two scenes are lumped together. Owen was shown as caring for Gwen despite how he supposedly treats women at that point. We even have that cringe-inducing scene in GBG where Mary makes him chose between saving Gwen or Tosh and of course he chooses Gwen. The same is true for Tosh and Tommy, although there is Tosh and Adam, he's using Tosh, but he's also supposed to be evil, and Rex is shown as caring alot about Vera. So I definitely think there's a weird double standard and I guess that extends to Jack and the stories he tells and relationships he has with men.

 

I've always thought that despite being from the future Jack doesn't come off as all that different than most 20th century blokes in actions which makes sense since he's being written by blokes from the 20th century lol. He can't talk honestly and openly about how he feels, men can do casual sex, no strings attached sex, but women will invariably want some sort of commitment and monogamy no matter the period so I can have a casual, mostly about sex, possibly open, albeit long term relationship with a bloke, but not a woman. Then there's that exchange between John and Jack about who was the wife in their relationship with the wife clearly being the lesser since neither wants to own to being the wife and besides that why are there even still such gender distinctions as wife and husband if labels no longer matter in the future? And even if living in the 20th century etc. has dulled Jack's 51st century values why is John the same way? So, other than having sex with whom ever you want including aliens and poodles and casual sex being the norm, most other societal norms and gender distinctions don't actually change all that much between now and the 51st century? 

[Captanne]

Mousey, you are totally right!!!  They did the Mary, Mary and Salome bit with Gwen waiting the three days for Jack to resurrect after defeating Abbadon.  Right, you are!!

 

So, the circle is complete.  LOL

Edited August 29, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

Swansong, I think this component of the show was handled just like a lot of other things we've talked about.  Once again we see an example of them telling us something that they didn't show.  No matter how much they tell us that things were different in Jack's original time and how by comparison, we aren't as progressive or how we are too hung up on labels and things, Jack and John in action still come off like they were born from this time (good example by the way - something I had forgotten about when I was writing). 

 

I honestly think that they had every intention of making Jack a true omnisexual and giving him origins from a time far into the future where human (and non-human) interaction looks different and is more open.  But because RTD probably never sat down and actually walked his writing team through what that actually means, it only came out in throw away comments from Jack.  What this all should really look like wasn't thought about and applied properly when constructing the relationships they referenced with him.  I also honestly believe that back in the day, what Jack had with John was something substantial even if Jack wants to forget about it now.  But of course, the first thing we see to establish their connection is sucking face and punching each other. 

[Swansong]

Heh one of things that pretty much guaranteed that I'd never take Jack seriously is in Boomtown, I think, when he does the 'Whatever' sign to Mickey and I thought wait they still do 'whatever' in the 51st century? lol Cos he certainly didn't learn that as part of his cover in the 1940s. It really brought home that no matter how much the show tries to imagine future worlds and what progression would look like the writers' imaginations are still very much hampered by their 20th/21st century roots. Even the music the Doctor likes is 80s or 90s pop. lol.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

It would have helped if Torchwood had a show bible or if RTD/Julie had given the writers any consistent direction.  I always had the feeling that the writers were given a "sexual mandate" in that the show was supposed to be "Doctor Who for Grownups."  Translate that to mean:  "A Doctor Who franchise spinoff with sex and cursing."

 

Here was the direction (limited to):

 

SEX

Jack -- anything goes.

Ianto -- sexy to look at.  Girlfriend in the basement.

Gwen -- Jack's sex interest but never forget, "anything goes" for him and hilarity will automatically ensue.

Owen -- straight but a willing threesome-type (which, sadly, translated to "rapist".)

Tosh -- repressed but also has a sex life.  

 

I'm being cynical, guys.  But that's how I see the original marching orders for the writers.

 

Problem is that the characters took on lives of their own and some either came with baggage (Jack) or were given 2,000,000 pounds of baggage by the third episode (Ianto.)

[itsmeyousee]

Nothing in Jack's history makes me think the 51st century is a wonderful time compared to our 21st century. Normal family life on Tattoine until the "creatures" finally attack but they lived under the threat of attack, not much fun there. Gets a dream job that robs him of his memories, still no fun there. Has more rehabs than i thought possible, so no improvement there. And i don't know if the poodles of the 51st century have a say or not, so really whacked and wrong there LOL Just cause you can do something doesn't mean you should aka volcanoes and WTF and HTF still no idea, we need someone who has read that book LOL

 

As far as i can see 3000 years and bugger all has changed really. I'm sure there would still be prejudice , maybe it's just about different stuff, like being boring and not a nutcase if John Hart is anything to go by LOL And the fashion must be awful since these future guys love period dress LOL

 

As for the roles of guys and chicks i'll go the " All eps" discussion which i checked out and my last post is not dissimilar to yours Captanne LOL

[Dizzy76]

I'm moving my response to the Cyberwoman "have you ever loved someone" conversation here because my thoughts go outside of just this episode.  Basically, the conversation brought to mind two ideas, which I'd like to share.  Let's see how concise I can be about them.

 

The first is in response to Swansong's comment about Jack falling in love at the drop of a hat.  I tend to agree with that because I view Jack as someone who loves the feeling of falling in love but kind of sucks at handling/maintaining it long term.  Especially now that he's immortal as it may be more true to say that he's afraid to succeed. Mortal Jack that we meet in Dr. Who seems to fall for Rose instantly and then quickly becomes attached to the Doctor.  We hear about it happening with Estelle and we see it with the real Jack.  I have no trouble believing that Jack has had some form of love at first sight many many times.  I imagine that the rush he feels with getting swept up in the attraction and the emotions is something he is completely addicted to.  But now that he can't stay dead, following those feelings through to some kind of relationship is complicated and painful.  So, even though Jack likes the feeling of falling in love, falling for someone who is an actual long-term option is something he might try to avoid when possible.

 

I say this because I think it might shed a bit more light into the Gwack versus Janto moments we get and why Jack would have had a hard time answering the "loved someone" question in Cyberwoman.  For me, Jack falling for Gwen kind of has the same value as Jack falling for the real Jack.  With real!Jack, there was no thought about where things could possibly go past that night because Jack knew that real!Jack would be dying the next day.  There was no need to worry about all the things that could go wrong or of getting too attached only to loose him because the end was already there.  So, Jack got the chance to just loose himself for that one moment, that one night without it costing him anything in the long run.  I think the same can be said for Gwen.  We've brought up before the fact that Jack continuously pushes Gwen to keep things going with Rhys and shared our points of view on why that is and I would like to add this to my list.  What if one of the biggest attractions about Gwen was that she was ultimately unavailable?  Could it be that Jack's drawn to Gwen because he can get those swept-up-falling-in-love feelings with her without having to make it anything more?  Gwen plays the game with him (giving the longing looks and the heat of the moment declarations) when the moments arrive. And although we know that she would drop Rhys in a second for Jack if he gave her the green light, Jack doesn't actually want that.  Rhys is the road block that keeps Gwen safe.  He can play out those "only eyes for you" moments without it costing him any kind of real investment or long term heartache (in that way).

 

Comparing that with Ianto, I have to think that even though it gets thrown out a lot that Jack is with him because it's convenient, that's really not true.  At least once we get to S2.  The way I see it, things actually get more complicated for Jack once he tries to make things "more" with Ianto.  Jack didn't have to ask Ianto out on a date even if you go with the assumption that he only asked because Gwen got engaged. Not only did Gwen give him the opening to "have her" but Jack could have tried to just keep things with Ianto the way they were in S1.  I think just like it was for the show runners in real life, Ianto also took Jack by surprise and became the person that was more threatening than a love at first sight.  Although the show botched the storytelling up in COE, I do take seriously Jack bargaining for Ianto's life in Day 4/HotD and I think Day 4 especially was when it hit Jack just how dangerous Ianto had become.

 

Bringing this back around to the "have you ever loved someone that much" question, I think in those moments, he might have thought 2 things: once there was a time that he had loved someone(s) that much but now, he couldn't afford to get in that deep with anyone.

 

Finally getting around to my second thought, I wanted to comment on the general idea of Gwack moments within the show.  I wish I could remember where I stumbled upon this years ago but someone made a LiveJournal post using episode stills to show how even though Jack and Ianto weren't in the forefront often, there were still Janto moments happening within a scene.  Itsmeyousee pointing out how Jack never took his eyes off of Ianto in Cyberwoman's "love someone" moment (but didn't keep contact with Gwen when she asked) made me think of it.  If I remember correctly, there were stills showing similar behavior (Ianto walking around doing random stuff in the background and Jack tracking his movement with his eyes) as well as how Jack and Ianto would place themselves together so that they actually looked like a unit.  And of course, these things were going on while the focus was directed elsewhere.  That made me try to come up with similar behavior for Gwen and I couldn't really remember that being the case.  Am I just forgetting moments?

 

For all the annoyed feelings I get when thinking about real Gwack moments, there really aren't that many in the show.  Not counting S1 moments (mostly because I can only think of the firing range scene and know I must be missing a couple more), S2 really only has 3 real moments where Gwen and Jack are participating.  There are a couple more moments that are more about Gwen because Jack's not actively participating - including the Adam conference room scene where Gwen is talking about loving Rhys but not like she does Jack.  Jack's reaction to her statement is interesting.  He looks like what she said didn't sit well with him.  And I wonder again if Jack fawning over Gwen isn't more about the moments of feeling swept up more than actually wanting to be with Gwen.  Does that make sense?  I mean, if Jack really was just with Ianto because he couldn't have Gwen, shouldn't we see more real Gwack moments?  Why did we go episodes with nothing until some random scene happens and Jack all of a sudden can't seem to take his eyes off Gwen?

 

Thinking about all this, I wonder if some of the reason we don't have as many moments with Jack longing for Gwen or actively creating in the background moments is because of choices that John Barrowman made.  Cause if I'm remembering correctly, all the Gwack moments were scripted focus of the scene stuff.  Going back to that episode still post (I really wish I knew where that was), it seems that John and Gareth seemed to always have Jack and Ianto aware of where the other person was in the room.  Not sure how much of that was something they just did but I have a feeling that a lot of it was, based on a story Gareth told during one of the panels he did.  The story was about some scene they were in where they were eating pizza.  John came up with the idea of having Jack feed Ianto the pizza and so while the scene was playing out (where they weren't the focus) John was feeding Gareth pizza and from the sound of it, being very cute.  After the take was done the director pulled Gareth aside to tell him that although he usually was really great at adding little non-verbal moments to a scene, the pizza eating was a bit much and came off corny.  Now Gareth was telling the story to talk about how John was always doing things that sometimes got him in trouble.  I thought it was interesting that John and Gareth were both trying to add things that were Jack/Ianto positive that wasn't just about sex.

 

I think I might have gone all around the map with this.  Hopefully it was all clear.  In my head everything tied together and was a response to the conversation going on in the Cyberwoman thread.

[Luckylyn]

What if one of the biggest attractions about Gwen was that she was ultimately unavailable?  Could it be that Jack's drawn to Gwen because he can get those swept-up-falling-in-love feelings with her without having to make it anything more?  Gwen plays the game with him (giving the longing looks and the heat of the moment declarations) when the moments arrive. And although we know that she would drop Rhys in a second for Jack if he gave her the green light, Jack doesn't actually want that.  Rhys is the road block that keeps Gwen safe.  He can play out those "only eyes for you" moments without it costing him any kind of real investment or long term heartache (in that way).

That's how I see the Jack/Gwen dynamic.  Gwen is safe because she's taken.   It's clear to me that Jack could have Gwen if he wanted her, but he consistently pushes her to Rhys.  

[indeed]

I wish I could remember where I stumbled upon this years ago but someone made a LiveJournal post using episode stills to show how even though Jack and Ianto weren't in the forefront often, there were still Janto moments happening within a scene.

Ah, yes! I saw that! It was nice and detailed. Don't remember where I saw it, though.

I remember talk of JB and GDL discussing their interactions and adding stuff like that--I can't remember if they both mentioned it in a con or something or just GDL revealed that extra-special J/I layering. Of course, GDL got in trouble for Meat even though it was JB's idea! Not gonna yell at the lead!

Edited September 1, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

Purely on Jack falling in love part, i also think he falls very easily but not very realistically. Maybe it's the real that scares him and maybe he prefers the fantasy , i'm not sure which.

 

But i also don't know if Jack has ever been loved for himself and all that comes with him until Ianto. Gwen doesn't, she loves the "hero" that makes her special,. If anything she puts Jack down as a person for his choices. Lucia didn't , Angelo didn't, Estelle wasn't given the chance and the Doctor doesn't. Who is left that we know about ?

 

I try not to compare Janto and Gwack, yes both involve Jack but they aren't similar in the types of relationships that they are. Ianto is everyday and to be honest 24/7 so Jack obviously likes Ianto's company. But Janto is about eating and washing and picking up the crap and organising what's happening etc etc, there doesn't have to be a drama or a thing to happen. And Gwack needs a thing, whether that's a i'm better or how wonderful or i know the secret or whatever.

 

About the only time i do compare and that's not even the right word but i think the ep Adam has a mirroring of ianto and Gwen. Jack excepts Gwen change, Ianto he will not. Both Gwen and Ianto are there at separate times when Jack sees Gray but Jack only asks Ianto and the boardroom where hey both basically tell Jack the same thing. And Jack despite loving Gwen and she is his fantasy dream or whatever, he chooses real life and Ianto

Edited September 2, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[indeed]

Who is left that we know about ?

John may have loved Jack for himself once upon a time. However, Jack has changed and, while John may still love him, he doesn't really know Jack as he is now.

[itsmeyousee]

John may have loved Jack for himself once upon a time. However, Jack has changed and, while John may still love him, he doesn't really know Jack as he is now.

Thanks for John Indeed I forgot about him believe it or not LOL Do you think they had a relationship before or after getting stuck in the "Time Loop" ?

 

 Just the way it's said made it seem like they were only together during that 5 years/ 2 week period. And John knew the old Jack and still loved the new Jack but you're right he doesn't know Jack now.

[CPP83]

John may have loved Jack for himself once upon a time. However, Jack has changed and, while John may still love him, he doesn't really know Jack as he is now.

 

 

They teased me so with that couple, I almost couldn't take it. I loved the chemistry between John and James so very much, not just because that snogfest between them was quite possible the hottest face attached to another face time Captain Jack ever had on the show, but I really thought they played off one another so well.

 

I agree that John, as I think all of those who find Jack again, if they're lucky enough to, found a different Jack than the one he knew and fell in love with. Jack's face and body remains the same no matter how many times he dies, but the experiences he goes through are always ever present in his head, changing his personality, his personal relationships. I think it's what makes him such a tragic figure without a happy ending to look forward to, even though he brings so much on himself often times.

 

But as far as those two went I truly believed that there was so much more they could have explored and delved into with them, their history, old Jack, and also what exactly was Captain John, because he, at least imo, wasn't human or at least not entirely. I always figured he might be a sort of shape-shifter or one from a humanoid type alien race. I had hoped that they would bring him back before the show really kicked rocks but alas.

[Luckylyn]

Jack's past seems like it could lead to a wealth of storylines.  I'm dying to learn more about Jack's at the Time Agency and what lead to his two year memory wipe.   John could be such a big part of that story arch.  

[Swansong]

 

The first is in response to Swansong's comment about Jack falling in love at the drop of a hat.  I tend to agree with that because I view Jack as someone who loves the feeling of falling in love but kind of sucks at handling/maintaining it long term.  Especially now that he's immortal as it may be more true to say that he's afraid to succeed. Mortal Jack that we meet in Dr. Who seems to fall for Rose instantly and then quickly becomes attached to the Doctor.  We hear about it happening with Estelle and we see it with the real Jack.

I would add Angelo to that list. Doesn't he basically shack up with him minutes after meeting him? 

 

 

Thinking about all this, I wonder if some of the reason we don't have as many moments with Jack longing for Gwen or actively creating in the background moments is because of choices that John Barrowman made.

Wasn't he pretty keen for Jack/Gwen to happen back then? But who really knows. I get the feeling a lot of that depended on the writer of the episode and JB has always struck me as an actor who goes with whatever the script/director demands. He never struck me as the type for much improvisation, but I don't really follow him so I don't know much about his acting style.

 

 

I mean, if Jack really was just with Ianto because he couldn't have Gwen, shouldn't we see more real Gwack moments?  Why did we go episodes with nothing until some random scene happens and Jack all of a sudden can't seem to take his eyes off Gwen?

I've never really subscribed to the idea that Jack was with Ianto because he couldn't be with Gwen. I have huge issues with the writing for them, but I never really bought that theory. For one there was nothing stopping them being together especially in s2 except his pretty arbitrary barriers. And to be honest I never found Jack so noble that if his desire was so strong that he'd keep sending her back to Rhys instead of just giving in. I mean this is a guy who snogged a colleague while he was unconscious. lol. Plus even if I bought it not hooking up with Gwen didn't mean he had to hook up with Ianto. And I never bought the idea that sleeping with an employee, who seems to fall pretty hard and isn't always predictable, whether you have feelings for them or not, was the easy option. I don't even really buy into the idea that he was planning to ask Gwen out until he found out she was engaged in KKBB. I think it was just a moment for him. A weird moment because I'm not sure how he expects her to respond after a declaration like that. But she gives him an in and he backs off. I tend to agree with the idea that Jack gets off on the feeling of falling for someone and the high of romance. I do think he has genuine feelings for Gwen, but I think ultimately it served his own ends and convenience not to pursue things. My issue with Jack and Gwen wasn't that they had feelings for each other, but that the show couldn't seem to show them having feelings for each other without dumping on their other relationships. That just made me think they were both arseholes.

 

Purely on Jack falling in love part, i also think he falls very easily but not very realistically.

I agree.

 

 

John may have loved Jack for himself once upon a time. However, Jack has changed and, while John may still love him, he doesn't really know Jack as he is now.

He lost me when he murdered Jack. I found nothing romantic or forgivable about that even though the show routinely treats it as no big thing I guess because it's guy on guy and Jack's immortal so it doesn't really count? I agree they could have done more with the Time Agency and Jack's past though. I thought it was silly that they just dropped the fact that he left the agency because they stole his memories. I guess because Torchwood, the organisation and the show, treat messing with someone's memories as no big thing maybe they didn't think it was a story worth exploring anymore. I agree with whoever said that they should have separated Jack's return and had Captain John's arrival and had that be its own episode. I think the problem for me is while I can buy Jack did bad things in his past the Jack we meet in The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances, which isn't that long after he left the Time Agency, doesn't really gel with the Jack I assume was partners with Captain John. John seems like a psychopath, but Jack at his worst never came close to being that for me. I feel like we're supposed to assume Jack and Captain John were very similar once upon a time and I just can't see it.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

I honestly don't know what to think about John killing Jack in KKBB because it's unclear to me whether or not he is Gray's hostage at this point.  In EOD, it's established that Gray is monitoring John and forcing him to do things but when John was coerced is unclear.

 

I do think John holds up a mirror to Jack about the bad man he used to be and that's why I really am interested in their interactions.  Is John who Jack would be if it wasn't for the Time Agency mind wipe and the meeting of Rose and The Doctor?  Also, is Gray's kidnapping the reason that Jack went down the dark path that lead him to the Time Agency and John Hart?

[indeed]

He lost me when he murdered Jack.

Me, too. I just mean I think John thinks what he feels for Jack is love--even though that would definitely qualify as a warped love. John seemed to get over Jack quickly, but then was super loyal to him again later. (I'm not a fan of thar arc.)

I feel like we're supposed to assume Jack and Captain John were very similar once upon a time and I just can't see it.

Me neither. Not buying it. Edited September 2, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

 

I honestly don't know what to think about John killing Jack in KKBB because it's unclear to me whether or not he is Gray's hostage at this point.  In EOD, it's established that Gray is monitoring John and forcing him to do things but when John was coerced is unclear.

He doesn't kill Jack because of Gray, though. He kills him because he gets angry when Jack rejects him. I don't know if they had Exit Wounds planned out when they wrote KKBB, but Hart's reasons for being there don't seem to have anything to do with Gray. Plus I can't really see the Gray we meet in Exit Wounds wanting Hart to kill Jack before Jack knows how much he hates him and how much he wants him to suffer. He clearly doesn't just want Jack to die he wants him to suffer for what he believes he did to him. And if Hart is only doing Gray bidding and is being controlled by Gray why tell him that Jack can't die because presumably by that point he gets how psychotic Gray is and how badly he wants revenge on Jack. In Exit Wounds Hart presumably wants to protect Jack as much as he can and Gray obviously gets that info from Hart after his first visit because Hart doesn't know before then.

 

 

me, too. I just mean I think John thinks what he feels for Jack is love--even though that would definitely qualify as a warped love. John seemed to get over Jack quickly, but then was super loyal to him again later. (I'm not a fan of thar arc.)

 

I can buy someone like Hart would rationalize his killing Jack as 'different' because he did it out of love and Jack hurt him by not wanting him anymore while still believing he can take the moral high ground with someone like Gray because he's crazy and wants revenge, but I still got whiplash from Hart's personality turn around.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

 

I would add Angelo to that list. Doesn't he basically shack up with him minutes after meeting him?

Yeah, I thought about Angelo after posting.  I would definitely add him to the list.

 

 

 

Thinking about all this, I wonder if some of the reason we don't have as many moments with Jack longing for Gwen or actively creating in the background moments is because of choices that John Barrowman made.

 

Wasn't he pretty keen for Jack/Gwen to happen back then? But who really knows. I get the feeling a lot of that depended on the writer of the episode and JB has always struck me as an actor who goes with whatever the script/director demands. He never struck me as the type for much improvisation, but I don't really follow him so I don't know much about his acting style.

I kind of got the sense that JB was very good at delivering the party line and whatever that was at the time.  His answers seemed to morph and change with what the show heads were saying and so in the beginning, he did speak positively about Jack/Gwen.  However (unless there is a quote I'm not aware of), I never got the sense that he thought things would ultimately work out well when talking about the pairing if they ever got together.  I do remember that after Cyberwoman, Gareth and John thought that there was something going on with Jack and Ianto but I don't remember which one of them talked about it (maybe it was both?).  So if I am remembering correctly, Cyberwoman started the conversation between the guys on how to play things.  And from some of the stories that Gareth and James Marsters tell, John was always adding extra things to scenes.  How much of that actually made the show is a whole other story.

 

As for John Hart, I liked him as a character but he wasn't someone I wanted Jack to hook back up with.  I do think they wasted potential storylines that could have been delved into since introducing him.  I can buy that Jack was a bad man back in the day and I just assumed that the Jack we are introduced to on Doctor Who had been running and scamming for a while.  I also think that things are watered down a bit on Doctor Who because they know kids watch it.  Once Jack's character made the transition to Torchwood they hardened him up and I didn't have a problem with him not seeming as bad when he was on Who.  That being said, I never got the sense that he was a bad as John Hart, lol. 

 

 

I agree with whoever said that they should have separated Jack's return and had Captain John's arrival and had that be its own episode.

That was me!  I am still bothered by that truth be told. 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

Jack and John is harder to get a fix on because i don't understand the 51st century. Jack makes it seem like utopia but if John is the reality which is nut job basically LOL but that's ok cause he can go to rehab. So it seems like a time in where there is less personal responsibility or maybe that's just Time Agents, who seem to be above society , unsure. I would have thought you would have to be careful interacting in different times but John walks in a kills a dude, bad dude sure but still the attitude ?

 

And i can see some of Jack in John with this care free attitude which isn't all very nice but i still don't know if they were ever together before or after they got stuck in the Time Loop. So i can see them together in that but not outside of that, Jack would get bored to easily by John i think. John is about chaos , he loves creating chaos and i think that would get old for Jack quickly. Jack is more about fun and while Jack can be ruthless , that's not his natural way, it's more his learned way.

 

That's why i disagree some what with the Doctor made Jack who he is or a better man or whatever term. But more gave Jack a chance just to be who he already was. Same with Gwen really, Jack might think Gwen's heart makes him a better person but the reality is , it's on their terms,

 

And i think that's part of ianto attraction for Jack, Ianto is easy. And i don't mean sexually but in as a person, Ianto is interested in Jack and not who Jack should be but actually who he is. But nothing about Ianto should be easy, Boss/employee, betrayal/lies, horror/death for the two of them but underneath all the crap, they still trust each other, like each other, enjoy each other and i'm sure the sex is great. But they basically together 24/7 and they are both very comfortable with that.

 

I also agree with Swansong Jack doesn't have to be with Ianto cause he can't or doesn't want Gwen. If all Jack needs is someone, to take his mind of Gwen, big city outside the Hub door and find them. And there isn't anything to suggest that Jack has even tried anything with Tosh, Owen or Suzie, so he isn't limited to the Hub for his social life. It's ianto the person, it can't just be about sex, they are together too much. It might have started that way, but by i would say the end of Season 1, Jack has already decided he just doesn't know it yet otherwise why kiss Ianto like that. And it all comes from Jack, Ianto has no idea how to show what he is feeling, but Jack does and very openly.

[Swansong]

 

I also think that things are watered down a bit on Doctor Who because they know kids watch it.

It's more than that. Jack seems capable of showing remorse and regret for his actions and once he realizes his mistake tries to rectify it even risking his own life. I agree with Itsmeyousee in that we see those qualities he credits the Doctor for pretty much from the get go. John is pretty much the opposite of that.  He doesn't even show all that much remorse over killing someone he claims to love. I feel like Exit Wounds probably does a better job of creating that 'mirror' than KKBB does because in KKBB John doesn't just come off as someone capable of doing bad things given the circumstances. He comes across as a psychopath.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

 

And there isn't anything to suggest that Jack has even tried anything with Tosh, Owen or Suzie, so he isn't limited to the Hub for his social life.

 

Thanks for pointing that out.  I forgot all about that when I was making my point but this is so true.  It's why I never bought into the idea that Ianto was a substitute but I know that there are many people who watched the show and walked away with the idea that Ianto was only asked out because Gwen was engaged. 

 

I also find it interesting that some fans are so sure that Jack spent the majority of his relationship with Ianto sleeping around.  I know that Jack has a reputation and that he's open to hooking up with anyone willing (as long as they are gorgeous enough) but we don't really see that happening on the show.  He flirts a bit but that's really the extent of it.  I kind of expected there to be a bit of kissing going on but the two times it happened outside of Ianto were Gwen and Martha and they both initiated it. 

 

If Jack was just settling, shouldn't we have seen more flirting and some occasional smooching?  And meetings with officers wouldn't need to be explained so that Ianto didn't get the wrong idea, yes?  Am I missing something?  Why do so many fans think that Jack did more than just tell stories about past hook-ups?  Why are there fans who seem to think that Jack can't even be a one-person-guy for the amount of time that he's in a relationship?

[itsmeyousee]

I think people enjoyed this omnisexual playboy part and having Jack in a relationship for some reason would stop that. Why that is i don't know, Jack's past is still Jack's past and he is a flirt. But since his flirting normally doesn't lead anywhere, not sure why they are expecting it to. But i'm also unclear when Jack had the time to sleep around. He will be around for ages but he still has 24 hours in his day LOL

 

I think the Gwen thing is just like Ianto is a liar after COE reaction. The show conditions us to Gwen is everything, so if Jack is upset about Gwen then asks Ianto out then that's apparently all the choices Jack has, which then contradicts this "playboy" image. If the only two people Jack can hook up with are Gwen or Ianto LOL but it also ignores Jack saying " I came back for you" to Ianto first.

 

I think Gwen was the fantasy and Ianto is the reality and most of the time aside from Meat, Jack chooses reality and we haven't seen that from him, cause normally he is all about the dream. Look at the people he has loved and how many are unrealistic romances. The Doctor, Gwen ,CJH, Estelle, even Angelo who wasn't playing with the full deck anyway or John they got stuck together. Lucia was real but it didn't work.

[Swansong]

 

If Jack was just settling, shouldn't we have seen more flirting and some occasional smooching?  And meetings with officers wouldn't need to be explained so that Ianto didn't get the wrong idea, yes?  Am I missing something?  Why do so many fans think that Jack did more than just tell stories about past hook-ups?  Why are there fans who seem to think that Jack can't even be a one-person-guy for the amount of time that he's in a relationship?

I don't know.They don't like Ianto or his relationship with Jack and so the idea of Jack cheating on him and Ianto sulking and crying in the corner over it fills them with glee? Jack's reputation is that he'll sleep with anything that moves and I suppose if he's monogamous that contradicts that for them? Although this only seems to apply to Ianto. They don't seem to have the same issue with the idea of Jack being faithful to say Gwen if they'd ever hooked up. They just want to see Jack make out and sleep with other people and again monogamy, especially in his relationship with Ianto, crimps that?The other is that Jack represents a polyamorous ideal and for some people that's very important, but if he's in a monogamous relationship then he's not being true to that. Only silly fangirls would believe Jack could be monogamous especially with Ianto? What Itsmeyousee says. I'm sure there are a number of reasons. He does make out with Real Jack during his time with Ianto, but whether that's cheating or not depends on whether you think they're in a relationship or not at that point. 

 

I have no trouble buying Jack cheats. I also have no trouble buying he can be monogamous in some relationships because to be honest it's not just with Ianto. There's no indication he's with anyone else while he's with Angelo either and apparently managed ok for five years with just Captain Hart (granted his options were limited, but it didn't apparently turn him off John as a partner afterwards). Lucia seems to have a fair number of complaints against him, but interestingly infidelity is never put forward as one of them. And as you say there's nothing that really indicates he's sleeping around or that Ianto and Jack have an open relationship and it's not as if it would be all that hard to suggest that even if you didn't want to actually show Jack actually sleeping around. He likes to tell stories or they could show him going to the pub or a bar and picking someone up or suggesting something to one of the many guest characters that showed up and let us use our imaginations, but they don't. It's not as if they were wedded to us seeing Jack and Ianto as some great love (until they killed Ianto off) so clearly that's not what was stopping them. 

 

 

I think the Gwen thing is just like Ianto is a liar after COE reaction. The show conditions us to Gwen is everything, so if Jack is upset about Gwen then asks Ianto out then that's apparently all the choices Jack has, which then contradicts this "playboy" image. If the only two people Jack can hook up with are Gwen or Ianto LOL but it also ignores Jack saying " I came back for you" to Ianto first.

That's the part that amuses me. Jack is supposed to be so gorgeous and charismatic and so sexy he can make straight men gay, but when he can't have Gwen his only option is to settle for a guy he's not really all that in to.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

He does make out with Real Jack during his time with Ianto, but whether that's cheating or not depends on whether you think they're in a relationship or not at that point. 

 

I have no trouble buying Jack cheats.

 

That's the part that amuses me. Jack is supposed to be so gorgeous and charismatic and so sexy he can make straight men gay, but when he can't have Gwen his only option is to settle for a guy he's not really all that in to.

 I personally don't think it's cheating, cause Jack and Ianto aren't in a decided upon relationship. They are together having sex but i doubt they have talked about anything at that stage. But i do think Jack is being a self centred git not only to Ianto but to the real CJH.

 

Sometimes i think Jack could cheat and sometimes i don't. I think cheaters are ultimately the most selfish people and Jack has those moments where he is a right prick but in a general sense i think no. I think when he is with someone he is but it's not something he thinks about either. Unlike Gwen, she made a choice and keep making it until Tosh dumped her for Owen by telling her about Dianne. I just don't see Jack doing that not just with Ianto with anyone.

 

What does it say about Tosh, Owen or Suzie, if Jack's choices are Gwen or Ianto and if he wasn't into Ianto , let alone his reputation which would be bollocks LOL It makes no sense at all

[Dizzy76]

Well, I'm glad it's not just me who doesn't get the logic behind all that.

 

 

I have no trouble buying Jack cheats.

In theory, I don't either.  It's why I can read fanfiction (well written of course) where that happens.  But when having a serious discussion about what actually went down on the show, I'm going to go off what I actually saw on the show and what was given in extra content.  For those of you who read the books, were there anything in those?  Maybe there's stuff there?

 

And you are right, Swansong, Ianto wasn't the only person that it seemed he was exclusive with.  I find it very interesting that infidelity wasn't brought up as an issue for Lucia.  And you are right, she seemed to have a few problems with Jack.  That tells me that although in theory I can see Jack cheating, I have to echo Itsmeyousee, and say that I don't see it happening when Jack is in an exclusive relationship. 

 

I also agree with you Itsmeyousee when you say that what Jack and Ianto had in S1 wasn't anything defined.  Regardless of not knowing what to call things post S2, I do think Jack asking Ianto out on that date changed the relationship from casual to something more.  If we had seen a CJH-type scene in S2 or COE, I would have considered that a bad thing.  It's funny though because even though I don't think they were suppose to be serious in S1, Jack with real!Jack still made me a bit made at him, lol.  Maybe I see it as self centered too.

 

And finally, poor Tosh, Owen, and Suzie.  They definitely aren't gorgeous even if Jack's only in-house options are Gwen and Ianto.  Though I have seen people who think that Jack and Suzie hooked up.

[itsmeyousee]

I think in COE it's how other people are seeing them, I don't think it's Jack and Ianto but it brings up Ianto insecurities and Jack is more what's your problem to Ianto. But yes i agree asking Ianto out made a change with them but i also think they were sorta there Ianto realising his feelings and Jack showing it with the kiss in EOD.

 

The books are all over the place to be honest Dizzy, and i'll go into that topic to expand on that. But there is one book that i haven't read Trace Memory, where this guy appearing in all of their lives at different stages and Jack and him were together in the past and he will go back there to die and Ianto tells Jack to go to him if that's what Jack wants, he can't stop Jack.. But i have no context for the convo. I will let you know when i have read it

Edited September 4, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Captanne]

This came up on my Tumblr feed this morning.  First time a fan artwork has really struck me.  (The URL says "rose tyler", I know.  If a picture of her comes up, I'm sorry.  It should be of Jack.)

[catrox14]

My first reaction was how Jack looks completely lost and utterly alone he looks. Like when everyone else has died. And now I'm sad.

But oh wow does this give me a idea for a fic about Dean Winchester and Jack Harkness....