Jack and Ianto: Not a Blip in Time

[Captanne]

I think it's because Ianto didn't see Gwen as a threat.  

[itsmeyousee]

It is harder to understand Ianto's feelings when it comes to Gwen, cause he doesn't seem to acknowledge anything is happening, but at the same time nothing is happening between Gwack..

 

Season 1 Jack seems to fancy Gwen big time, but for whatever reason he believes he needs her "normal/special" and it's her relationship with Rhys that keeps Gwen how Jack needs her, so he doesn't go there. Even though he knows he could, it's more like Gwen would have to make the first move for Jack, he can't sully her Gweness. At the same time Jack ends up with Ianto , a relationship based on loneliness, convenience, sex  , comfort. And i don't think either guys are looking for more than that, we see Ianto is feeling more than he expected in CJH/EOD. But even in EOD Jack makes them very public by openly showing the different way he sees Ianto to the others, Ianto is confused but Jack isn't.

 

Season 2 Jack comes back with what looks like a decision made, he wants Ianto. And I don't know if it's a choice between ianto and Gwen for Jack, more just he wants to try for something more with Ianto than what they had. And if you take away those 4 scenes i mentioned for Jack. Gwen while still special to Jack , his feelings for her have changed, she isn't what he needs now in a personal way. Best friend yes, loves her yes, needs her in that way , no. Which is why those scenes stand out so much, they just don't fit with anything else Jack is doing or feeling or showing. small references to how he used to feel, sure that makes sense but this desperate angst , just isn't there anymore.

 

And by the time we have COE or MD i's gone for Gwen as well ( the angst), she still wanted Jack in Season 2 and expected Jack to feel the same way about her and ianto or even Rhys don't come into her thoughts. This is all about how Jack sees just how special she is and his love confirms that she is special. It's more about her image of Jack supports her own thoughts about herself, if that makes any sense

 

And maybe that's why Ianto isn't really jealous of Gwen, it doesn't seem to be about a real relationship that could happen. It's all about fairytale images or ego boosts or whatever term. And most of it comes from Gwen.

[Captanne]

Exactly.  If anything, I think (when it came to Jack) he politely tolerated her.

 

In other ways, though, I think he was rather fond of her.  

 

I just don't think he was ever jealous of her with regards to Jack.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

Ianto and Gwen never seemed to have tension them, and I agree Ianto seemed fond of her.  I would say that after Jack Gwen was closest to Ianto.  Isn't Gwen the one who calls Ianto/Jack a couple which leads to Ianto to start fishing and Jack to get defensive?

[Swansong]

 

Isn't Gwen the one who calls Ianto/Jack a couple which leads to Ianto to start fishing and Jack to get defensive?

 

No. Ianto starts fishing in the hospital when Rupesh, calls them a couple.

[Luckylyn]

I remember a scene where Jack, Ianto, and Gwen are watching cctv of the doctor they are thinking of recruiting.  I remember Jack and Ianto doing or saying something that makes her refer to them as a couple, and Ianto notes that to Jack who gets irritated.

[itsmeyousee]

It's both, Ianto is flustered by a stranger Rupesh discussing them as a couple and Jack is what's the deal we are ? When Gwen being the second person that says something, Ianto wants clarification which annoys Jack

[Dizzy76]

Everyone is saying some good stuff here.  Itsmeyousee, I think my headcanon falls the closest to what you've been saying.  I think Jack was very attracted to Gwen when he first meets her and her "normal-ness" and "heart" are qualities that he feels completely drawn to.  So in series 1, we get a Jack that would have totally "gone there" with Gwen but it would have taken away from what he considered to be one of the biggest things that grounded her - her relationship with Rhys.  That is why I think he gets so mad at Gwen in that EOD scene.  She's crying and screaming about how she is oh so in love with Rhys and needs to get him back but Jack is remembering how so far, she's not done a great job of respecting Rhys or their relationship.  She purposely endangered an important part of what made here special.  I also think Swansong made a great point about Jack respecting the defined relationships (for all the reasons she pointed out) and so Gwen being in a monogamous relationship and defiling that is wrong for him.  Of course we know that Jack has no problem being with more than one person at a time but I really truly believe that once you define a relationship (with rules that you don't go outside that relationship for hook-ups or whatever), then he tires his best to honor the relationship rules.  And of course, those rules can even be set in a polygamous relationship.  And maybe the rules can be that you spend time with other people but while your partner is there or gives the ok.  But whatever they are, Jack wants to respect them.

 

One of the things that I had to work out about series 1 was in CJH, Jack is telling Real!Jack that there is no one while Ianto is telling Owen that Jack needs him.  Most people seem to think that it has to be one or the other (and that Jack is being an ass and disrespecting Ianto) but I think that both guys were speaking a truth then.  They weren't serious or rather, they hadn't had any sort of conversation that defined the relationship in any way but they had grown as friends and were the person each guy leaned on to get through those tough Torchwood days and nights.  They weren't boyfriends or partners so Jack was right, he wasn't with anyone in "that way."  They did however need each other for support and comfort and understanding.

 

Once we hit series 2, things get a little more murky storytelling wise.  In the real world, I think the confusion between Ianto/Jack vs Jack/Gwen comes down to some of the writers and directors (and novel writers) still holding on to what had been set out in series 1 - not wanting to move on to how the Ianto/Jack relationship had developed.  My personal headcanon though is that although neither Jack or Ianto expected things to go beyond comfort sex/companionship, both guys ended up wanting something more.  We see Ianto get there earlier than Jack but by the time Jack comes back from TYTNW, he's gotten there as well.  And you guys are correct, outside of 4 scenes within 3 episodes, we don't see Jack responding to Gwen in the same way he did in series 1.  Most of the longing seems to come from Gwen. 

 

What we do see however is that Jack has a serious issue with letting go and loosing people and this side of Jack heavily influences how I interpret those 4 scenes that we can't seem to ignore.  I have no problem seeing Gwen as Jack's best friend during this lifetime or that she holds a very special place in his heart.  He loves her.  She's become family.  And although he knows that Rhys being in her life is important and necessary, the closer she gets to having that normal life with him, the more Jack fears that it will pull her away from him and the family that he's made through the team.  I admit that seeing the Captain's Blog for KKBB where Jack is specifically talking about this fear paints the way I looked at all the other scenes, but I think it works for all of them.  He would know differently if she retconned herself and left the team, the family.  He is really struggling with Rhys becoming more important to her which could mean that he becomes less (and I think this would be the same for Owen and Tosh as well if they had been in the same situation).  And when she gets married, I think Jack was dealing with a lot of feelings.  Not only is he going to loose a little bit more of Gwen, but he's remembering his own past marriage and possibly dealing with feelings of jealousy because he's never going to have the exact same thing as Gwen and Rhys will (thinking it doesn't ever work out for him).  But think about Jack during the rest of the episode, he is trying really hard to make sure Gwen and Rhys get their day.  He even hands her off to Rhys in what could be seen as a fatherly way once the danger is over.  He steps back and lets Rhys be the hero for a moment.

 

And through all of that, I think Ianto sees it and understands most of it and so we don't ever get him behaving in a way that seems like jealousy.  I agree, that the show tried to make it seem that Ianto was the next person on the team that Gwen was the closest to after series 1 and he seemed to be fond of her.  No, I agree that Ianto's main problem was not whether Jack would leave him for Gwen, but if Ianto was important/special enough to Jack to remember him years later.  Was he someone who had made a big enough impact on Jack's life to matter in the end.

 

Which brings me to COE.  I can't ignore or get past the way they chose to write the Jack/Ianto relationship for this series.  I think they really did mean to grow the relationship in some way but I think they did a horrible job of it.  That being said, the whole "couple" talk doesn't come across to me the way it seems to come across to others.  At least not totally.  I agree that Ianto was fishing and feeling insecure about where he stood with Jack.  I think that Ianto saw and heard about important people in Jack's life (past and present) and thought that he couldn't possible measure up.  But I think Jack did indeed try to reassure him whenever Ianto tried to bring it up.  The problem is they both seem to have a hard time communicating with each other about their feelings and what they are to each other and so we get a disconnect in how they see the relationship.  I feel like people disregard or plain forget that the first time Ianto brings up the couple thing, Jack's response is, "Well we are.  Does it matter?"  Jack is in no way trying to deflect or bring up his hatred of labels.  He plain out says that they are a couple.  It's not until Ianto brings it up again when Gwen calls them a couple that Jack gets defensive.  And because I think that relationships with Angelo, Lucia, and even the Doctor have given Jack a buttload of relationship issues, I get why he may have started to get defensive and insecure that maybe Ianto is the one who really has a problem with them being together.  And so yes, he gets annoyed.

 

At the end of the day, no matter how sloppy or lazy or confusing the writing was at times, I just remember that as Ianto died, Jack was willing to give up millions of children or even destroy the world in order to keep Ianto with him.  He may not have said "I love you" (though I also like to remind myself that it was in the script and that the boys themselves took it out) his action and words during that entire death scene said enough for me.

 

 

 

Edited for stupid typos.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

Can i say i'm one of the people who think Jack is an arse in CJH LOL And it doesn't have anything to with Ianto and his feelings coming through, they are Ianto feelings Jack doesn't have to feel that way. But Jack is dismissive and that pisses me off, it's the same reason i hate the dance in SB or even the end of Meat but everyone cops it then.

 

I hate it when Ianto can't even been seen as a person by Jack not even as a member of his team that Jack supposedly adores, let alone someone he is screwing. I just find Jack's attitude truly ugly as a person and i don't want to know anything about Jack. Stay in 1945 for all i care, choose Gwen and suffer you loser, is more my attitude towards Jack in those moments LOL

[Swansong]

So in series 1, we get a Jack that would have totally "gone there" with Gwen but it would have taken away from what he considered to be one of the biggest things that grounded her - her relationship with Rhys.  That is why I think he gets so mad at Gwen in that EOD scene.  She's crying and screaming about how she is oh so in love with Rhys and needs to get him back but Jack is remembering how so far, she's not done a great job of respecting Rhys or their relationship.  She purposely endangered an important part of what made here special.  I

I have to admit this is the part that has never and will never make any sense to me because for almost all of s1 and the first few episodes of s2 Jack hardly knows Gwen and doesn't meet Rhys until Combat, and then only very briefly, has no notion of her relationship with Rhys other than she happens to be in one. But he knows that being with Rhys is what grounds her to the point that he actively tries to protect this aspect of her life. The fact that Gwen seems so ambivalent with Rhys, has an affair with a colleague pretty quickly after joining Torchwood and seems interested in a potential something with him suggest that there may well be pretty significant issues with that relationship, but Jack remains pretty fixated on the idea that Gwen needs Rhys. It's almost like he's obligating her to stay in a relationship she may not entirely be happy with because it suits some vague agenda he has. 

 

I remember a scene where Jack, Ianto, and Gwen are watching cctv of the doctor they are thinking of recruiting.  I remember Jack and Ianto doing or saying something that makes her refer to them as a couple, and Ianto notes that to Jack who gets irritated.

That happens too, but after the hospital scene when they're back at the Hub. Edited August 3, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

When you lay it out, it really doesn't make sense Swansong, lol.  Like I said elsewhere (it may have been this thread even?), the show does a crappy crappy job of showing us the things they need to show us and tries to tell instead.  And even that is not always done well.

[Captanne]

I think everyone is awful in CJH, especially CJH who is a selfish, childish, inconsiderate asshole.

 

Ahem.

 

As for Ianto getting flustered in that hospital scene?  Personally, I didn't even consider that when Luckylyn asked her question about Gwen digging into "Jack and Ianto" because it was THE FIRST SCENE THAT MADE ME WANT TO OPENLY WEEP IN CoE.  And I have banished it from my mind with a resounding, "Get thee hence!" complete with arm flourish.

 

Jesus, Lord and Saviour, Ianto would never act like he did in CoE in that fucking hospital scene.  That was so cringeworthy that I give GDL an honorary International Emmy ™ me, for his performance.  How he did that without quitting his damned job right then and there is utterly beyond me.

 

Ianto was childish and silly in private with Jack and around the team but NEVER on the job.  That is so fucking OOC that I can't even breathe at the moment.

 

ETA:  Mousey, I don't like the dance scene in Something Borrowed, either.  Jack is a dick.

 

EETA:  Folks, I'm reading a bit out of order and catching up so -- Swansong, I think that the disconnect with Jack's misunderstanding of Gwen and Rhys' relationship (or at least Gwen's version of it) is part of Jack's poor leadership style.  

 

Unfortunately, we're hitting on a lot of Jack's weaknesses today -- and I love the character and I love him for these weaknesses -- it makes him complicated and interesting.  It drives plot lines.  So, don't get me wrong in this one post because I seem to be raking Jack over the coals.

 

I adore Jack.  I think he's one of the neatest characters in the Whoniverse.

 

ANYway, one of his weaknesses is a lack of understanding of social structure.  He wants a person to un-nerd Torchwood, someone who will bring a non-subterranean perspective to the team.  He wants a "normal" person as opposed to a prisoner on parole, a suicidal doctor whose wife died of an alien brain infestation in front of his eyes and a sociopathic welder.  (Followed shortly by a severely damaged Torchwood One survivor with a Cyberman in the basement.)

 

All of these folks are problematic.

 

Jack wants a "normal" person and his definition includes a girl, a boy, later a baby, and a nice white picket fence.  I'm sure he would have bought them a labrador retriever if they had but asked.

 

Problem is - he doesn't seem to understand life doesn't work that way.  Instead he got a narcissistic, philandering, unrepentant, stubborn, pit bull who is wiling to sell out her best friend on a threat she never checks out.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

ANYway, one of his weaknesses is a lack of understanding of social structure.  He wants a person to un-nerd Torchwood, someone who will bring a non-subterranean perspective to the team.  He wants a "normal" person as opposed to a prisoner on parole, a suicidal doctor whose wife died of an alien brain infestation in front of his eyes and a sociopathic welder.  (Followed shortly by a severely damaged Torchwood One survivor with a Cyberman in the basement.)

 

All of these folks are problematic.

 

Jack wants a "normal" person and his definition includes a girl, a boy, later a baby, and a nice white picket fence.  I'm sure he would have bought them a labrador retriever if they had but asked.

 

 

My problem Captanne is not with what you are saying because that's what we see but why Jack thinks that way. Because it contradicts each other.

 

On one hand saying Jack doesn't get the social structure because he is from the 51st century except he has lived in the 19th , all of the 20th and the start of the 21st century, so about time the dude got a clue LOL

 

But then what he considers normal is so lame, why does he think a chick & guy mean happy ever after since he laughs at labels and the quaintness of the 21st century

 

And it's same with the BS with Ianto, Jack isn't stupid he knows when he is being an arse but he just doesn't seem to care because he is Captain Jack Harkness, like that gives him permission to be a prick.

 

Not that everyone doesn't have annoying moments but they normally make sense unlike Jack's moments LOL

[Captanne]

I don't have a  problem with Jack's dickishness.  That's part of his personality.  It's not a very flattering one but it is what it is.

 

I totally agree with you about the "but he's been in the social structure of mankind for a hundred and fifty years, why doesn't he get it?!" but part of me says, "That's okay, Jack.  Some of us were born and bred in this society and we don't understand it either."

 

So, he gets it wrong.  There's no such thing as Ozzy and Harriet.  Lots of people get that wrong.

 

The dog dies.  Mom and Dad get a divorce.  The house is financed underwater and foreclosed on.  Sister dies of an overdose after getting an abortion.

 

Jack lives a bit of an idealistic fantasy in wanting someone "normal."  Plenty of people do that.

 

OTH, it's very "Jack" to think that Ozzy and Harriet do exist.  He's an optimist, hero who just knows "good" exists.  Why wouldn't it exist in Gwen?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

I assume Jack has a rather simplistic view of what it means to be normal and human (you have a boyfriend and are sometimes nice to strangers) because the show, through Gwen, seems be peddling a rather simplistic idea of those things. And her faults aren't really treated as an intrinsic part of her, but a consequence of being part of Torchwood. But I have to imagine even if Jack doesn't have a complete handle on our social norms he still has to have a somewhat more sophisticted handling of them than someone who'd honestly believe that all you need is a boyfriend and a chance to go bowling every Friday and that would be enough to protect you from succumbing to the bad things in the world or that just the act of having a boyfriend is proof of what a grounded normal person you are. Even the show can't sell that idea convincingly. Gwen doesn't stay grounded, if she was even all that grounded to begin with considering how quickly she seems to succumbs to cheating and drugging people just because she can. But even if you did believe that I still think you'd need to know more about a person than they have a boyfriend, like what that boyfriend is actually like, before you could say well obviously this person is normal and unjaded because they have this person in their life etc. I mean if they'd had Jack come to this belief about her after say Meat I could buy it, but the first or second episode?

Jack telling Real Jack that there's no-one only bugs me in relations to him then kissing Ianto in EOD. It may not be a serious relationship, but he can hardly be no-one if Jack chooses that particular response with him in those circumstances. And then yeah he is a dick and why exactly am I supposed to give a crap about his feelings in this when his apparently change according to which cute guy happens to be in the room. Especially when it's not as if they give us anything else to go on.

Edited August 4, 2014 by Swansong

[Dizzy76]

So, I was reading fanfic and of course, got sidetracked (like I do).  One thing lead to another and before I knew it, I had clicked on this link to a post someone had written about their take on the Jack/Ianto relationship in S1.  I thought I'd share it with you all because they do such a great job laying out why they think the way they do and it reminds me of the way we handle our discussions here.  I think you might especially like reading this, Captanne because this person also believes that there had to have been some kind of relationship pre-Cyberwoman.  And like I've said before, if you make the right arguments, I have no problems agreeing with the viewpoint.  This person makes some nice points that definitely have me thinking.

 

There are two more posts that were linked from this person about the Jack/Ianto relationship in COE and a look at the narrative structure and ethics for COE but I haven't read them yet.

 

Also, the S1 relationship post had a link to that Parental!Jack post that I was talking about in the Jack thread.  Is this the same one you were talking about, Indeed?

[Captanne]

In the immortal words of The Monkees, "I'm a Believer".  I've never doubted that they had a sexual relationship early on.  Not Twoo Wuv.  Not anything but casual.  I just don't have a problem with that.

 

ETA:  Interestingly enough, I agree with most of what solitary_summer says in the other articles you cited. 

 

As for the Parental!Jack?  Yeah.  That's another of my agreement points.  

Edited August 21, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

Yes, that's the one! It just dealt with S1. Can't believe you found it. I guess my Google search skills get a big ol' fail! LOL I had thought that picspam essay either split off into Ianto as mom/stepparent with examples or had a link to a separate essay covering that view, but re-reading the comments, I guess I got that impression from there. Lots of extra theories and supporting "evidence" (including a link to the Something Borrowed example I dug up earlier). It's been a few years!

Too bad there wasn't a follow-up S2 essay (at least I don't think there was?).

ETA: LOL at that "kids" Countrycide pic.

Edited August 21, 2014 by indeed

[Dizzy76]

LOL, Captanne - I figured you'd enjoy reading it!  Glad that you liked the other essays as well.  I wasn't sure where the COE essays would lead to but regarding the Jacck/Ianto relationship, I found myself agreeing with solitary_summer's take and liked that she pulled from everything when quoting and giving examples.  I still have to go through Jack/Ianto time essay that was linked to and the COE narrative structure essay.  Looking forward to it even more now that you found yourself agreeing with their take.

 

Indeed, you should have heard me when I saw the link for it.  I was so excited!  I too remembered there being more but reminded myself that I was consuming tons of information right after I finished watching everything.  It's very possible that for me, I was combining multiple picspam essays/posts as well as all the comments that came with them.  There were quite a few of them.

[Captanne]

Honestly, because I loathe CoE with the passion of....you know the drill.  Yeah, that much.  I found the CoE article mainly "skimmable".  It was interesting for me to see someone able to write a sober review and analysis without running off the rails and into "Jack looked like something smelled bad and Ianto behaved like a 7th grader" territory (as I would, I'm afraid.)

 

There are parts of the CoE canon I'm willing to accept -- Ianto's loyalty, his doggedness, his desire to just have Jack talk to him -- those things I find totally plausible and with good foundation laid in the regular seasons for it.  

 

But it's the ultimate betrayals of the audience who know these characters from previous seasons -- Jack behaving like Ianto has "cooties" and being so dismissive and snide to him; Jack letting Ianto come with him into the Den o' Muppet; Ianto being stupid enough to follow Jack into the Den o' Muppet (so, yes, they are both to blame for that); Jack ever EVER ever having a reputation for child torture, rape and long-term imprisonment by junkies and then repeating that behaviour in 1965 is just abhorrent and OOC.

 

(Those who say, "I want to know what drove Jack to those extremes" are more generous and patient than I.  I don't want a character I love so much to ever be capable of such a thing.  I can't reconcile that.  And I do have a choice.  If a character is given that storyline in his life, I will reject him.  It's only fiction, after all.  I owe no allegiance to a fictional character.)

Edited August 21, 2014 by Captanne

[Dizzy76]

OK, so I just finished reading solitary_summer's time essay and I really enjoyed it. There were a couple of things that I had a different take on but mostly, I found it to be an interesting read. A good look at how time themes run throughout the show (focusing mostly around Jack) and how it ends up playing out in Jack and Ianto's relationship.

[itsmeyousee]

Thanks for the links Dizzy and i will have to read it all more properly but on the first essay as "how they got to the kiss". Sorry  and no surprise i really disagree LOL And it's not even the "did they/didn't they before TKKS" that's my problem. It's the emphasis on some eps is over done and disregarding of others. It's like the little moments don't count but that's all we have with Jack and Ianto, we have a few big moments but the rest is all the little bits. And discounting some moments as purely professional work time doesn't work either, cause that's all we see them at work LOL

 

For example Combat which solitary - summer has as purely professional time and we see nothing going on between them. Except they bounce of each other extremely well when they are doing bad cop/bad cop LOL. But that isn't part of Ianto's job, we haven't seen Ianto interview anyone before or interview anyone with Jack, yet they can finish each others sentences. That to me shows a very close relationship but it got ignored as unimportant.

 

Or take Countrycide which is shown as Jack still being pissed at Ianto or Ianto still hurting. so no good feelings between them there.But Ianto is out there with them when he isn't normally and ianto has tracked the SUV and Jack is following his lead. So it's not all bad between them, the trust is re- building. Nor do i think that screwing Jack is any indication that Ianto isn't still grieving for Lisa. Lisa and Ianto love for her is the one constant they keep with him but it doesn't lessen because of what happens between him and Jack. Just like all of Jack's old loves don't lessen any feelings for Ianto (normally after MD who the F knows).

 

I wished they had thought more about the "kiss " itself because that is more interesting that just a kiss cause they are together sexually. It's how Jack after being disobeyed and dying twice is connecting with each of them. It's showing us Jack's needs and Jack's feelings.

[Swansong]

One of the things that struck me about her second Jack/ Ianto meta was how little Ianto actually features in it. It really is all about Jack. I felt that unfortunately really summed up how the show handled their relationship. I thought the idea that time defines their relationship was an interesting one, but found myself disagreeing that on the show it defined their relationship. I feel like it should have defined their relationship, but like a lot of things really doesn't. Realistically Ianto only has a finite amount of time while Jack has forever, but that's something that's only touched on very briefly and then only rather superficially.  

[itsmeyousee]

I didn't mind the Jack & Ianto in COE one , although it bring up a question that i'll post in the Ianto topic. I have problems once again with the morals in COE mainly cause she comes from a very different view point of what Torchwood was and who Jack is than i do. The Time one was very interesting but it wasn't about Jack and Ianto , it was all about Jack and how Ianto fit into Jack's time stuff but also how everyone and anything fit into it as it related to Jack.

 

The one i really liked is the Family one, although i'm unsure about Gwen's role but i get how that could be the case but that requires that we ignore the supposed Gwack angst that pops up every now and again. But that Ianto is treated differently and there is more of an equal relationship between Ianto and Jack, i completely agree with. But i also don't see ianto showing Jack the respect he should as their Boss as being subservient , i think it says more about Ianto character than he can seperate between the two sides of his relationship with Jack and Jack for that matter. The job comes first for the two of them and that was a hard lesson for Ianto that we saw him go through and i imagine Jack's experience was as equally as bad.

[Luckylyn]

One thing I liked is that Ianto clearly learned a big lesson from Cyberwoman, and I think Jack gets that.  I really like how solid the professional dynamic is between Jack and Ianto even if the relationship side of things was underwritten on the show.

[Swansong]

 

One thing I liked is that Ianto clearly learned a big lesson from Cyberwoman, and I think Jack gets that.  I really like how solid the professional dynamic is between Jack and Ianto even if the relationship side of things was underwritten on the show.

I liked that too. I was watching GBG a few weeks ago and it really struck me how differently Jack and Ianto handled their relationship on the job compared to Gwen and Owen. Owen and Gwen come off as very immature and disruptive, but Jack and Ianto seem to make a point of not letting the fact that they're involved affect how they behave on the job.

[itsmeyousee]

Me three LOL They have a partnership both professional and personal but it's clear that professional must come first and then when it's quiet and they are alone, they can do personal. And it's very much from both of them, once again showing me an equal standing between them.

[Dizzy76]

Lame comment is lame but - Here, here!  Me four!

[Captanne]

I'm on my mobile at a conference so please forgive typos. I just wanted to agree (that makes me number five?). Ditto to the professional relationship!

[itsmeyousee]

Swansong raised a question about Ianto not getting jealous about women in Jack's life but only the men. But i can only remember Ianto getting jealous twice on the show and once in an Audio book. So John Hart, Unit dude in DW and more Jack flirting in In The Shadows, when else does Ianto get jealous ?

 

Jack gets jealous in In The Shadows and about dead Owen and if you believe they were screwing before TKKS then Jack is also jealous of Lisa and even Carly in Submission with Jack putting is hand wherever , certainly seemed like territorial behaviour from Jack

Edited August 26, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Luckylyn]

I think Ianto was also jealous of The Doctor in KKBB.

 

I do wonder if the hard look Jack gave Ianto in Countrycide was supposed to be jealousy over Lisa.  Also, Ianto deliberately brought up Lisa to make it clear how insensitive Gwen's juvenile kissing game was.  Was Jack angry about Ianto putting Gwen in her place or angry about that Ianto did not mention that Jack was actually Ianto's last kiss?  I like that stare down scene between Ianto and Jack a lot but am not sure of it's context.

[itsmeyousee]

I don't know if i would call it jealously Luckylyn, it's more about is Jack leaving or staying in KKBB. But i also think Ianto wouldn't bother getting jealous of the Doctor, he would more do the, "off you go" thing that he did in the DW eps. Like he knows there is no use Jack will be going.

 

As for Countrycide or even Cyberwoman with Jack's anger. I think it really depends on what type of relationship Jack and Ianto had before Cyberwoman. Personally i don't think anything happen between them and Jack's look in Countrycide is about Ianto creating a shit feeling within the group after Jack had just stop one happening with the Gwen/Owen/Tosh thing and putting Gwen in her place, all of them really by mentioning Lisa is dead.

 

But if you believe they had a thing then Jack is clearly jealous.

[indeed]

I think Ianto has a moment or two that can be interpreted as jealousy toward the Doctor in The Stolen Earth...but it's been a while so I could be remembering wrong.

[itsmeyousee]

I think Ianto has a moment or two that can be interpreted as jealousy toward the Doctor in The Stolen Earth...but it's been a while so I could be remembering wrong.

Are you referring to Gwen checking out the Doctor and the young bit Indeed ?

 

I'm not saying Ianto isn't jealous of the Doctor, but it's different. To me The Doctor will always come first for Jack and Ianto knows this, it's more like it's inevitable for Ianto. He will always be behind the Doctor for Jack but so will everyone else but all the companions are the same , the Doctor comes first.

[Captanne]

I think Ianto's totally jealous of the Doctor.  

 

Perhaps in a sexual way -- for comic effect -- but primarily because he understands that the Doctor comes from Jack's "world" (for lack of a better term.)  Jack knows space and has travelled in Time and probably knows about the Time Wars and Gallifrey and all that.  (I say "probably" because I'm not sure it's ever explicitly stated what Jack knows.)

 

Ianto is jealous of the fact that the Doctor can give Jack all of time and space.  Something Ianto simply doesn't have to offer.

 

ETA:  Add to it, everything Mousey says.  The Doctor will always come first with Jack.

 

Honestly, I don't see it being credible any other way.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

Are you referring to Gwen checking out the Doctor and the young bit Indeed ?

Yup, I thought there was a smidge of jealousy in that comment. Plus, in general, he has all that angst about Jack leaving him. Jack reassures him in Stolen Earth, but it's an ongoing issue that can be seen as being related to the temptation that is the Doctor.

[itsmeyousee]

But i think is just so different, like Ianto had a chance against lets say John Hart.. Former versus current squeeze or whatever but it's more even. But i think Ianto believes and correctly believes that when it comes to The Doctor, he has already lost. Can you be normally jealous when it's inevitable ? Or do you do what Ianto did which was say goodbye ? I guess that's why i don't included the Doctor when i think about jealous moments, everyone including Gwen comes second to the Doctor for Jack.. It's just too uneven and we know the outcome.

 

And I agree Indeed Ianto certainly has issues about Jack leaving him, but leaving him in all sorts of ways not just the Doctor. That's why i completely disagree with the idea that Jack not staying dead is a comfort to Ianto, it just adds more reasons for Jack to leave him.

 

But Ianto isn't the only one that gets jealous or has insecurities , Jack fits that bill as well . It's one of the best moments in SB, Jack high voice at Ianto agreeing with Owen LOL

[Swansong]

 

But i think is just so different, like Ianto had a chance against lets say John Hart.. Former versus current squeeze or whatever but it's more even. But i think Ianto believes and correctly believes that when it comes to The Doctor, he has already lost. Can you be normally jealous when it's inevitable ? Or do you do what Ianto did which was say goodbye ? I guess that's why i don't included the Doctor when i think about jealous moments, everyone including Gwen comes second to the Doctor for Jack.. It's just too uneven and we know the outcome.

Whatever Ianto's feelings about Jack and the Doctor in Stolen Earth Jack thought Ianto and Gwen were worried that he wouldn't come back once he met up with the Doctor, but didn't get that wasn't really their concern because he didn't know what they knew, that the daleks were coming for them. They thought they would be dead by the time Jack got back so I don't think jealousy or concern Jack would stay with the Doctor was the issue there.

 

I don't think it was inevitable that Jack would run off with the Doctor though because really he never did after s1. He had the opportunity to run off with the Doctor but chose instead to come back to Torchwood. Even in Stolen Earth he ran off to deal with a threat and when it was over came right back to Torchwood. That's not to say I don't think he had fun or didn't enjoy meeting up with the Doctor and the rest of the companions. I just don't think his goal was to run off with the Doctor. If anything Jack was pretty true to his word on this issue, that he'd decided his place was with his team and Torchwood.  I have to assume that whatever he felt he got from Torchwood and his team was actually more important to him than what he felt he got by travelling with the Doctor otherwise it makes no sense to me beyond the obvious meta reasons of course that he was given the opportunity to travel with the Doctor, but instead chose something else because really Jack did chose his team over The Doctor. I tend to believe that when Jack left in EOD he wasn't thinking of coming back. I don't think he just ran off to get answers because really if all he'd wanted to know was what happened to him he didn't have to leave Cardiff to do that just meet up with the Doctor. I think he was planning a permanent exit and only re-evaluated later.

 

I tend to agree with itsmeyousee, though, that Ianto's insecurities weren't specifically about the Doctor or really any one thing. I just think he wasn't sure of his significance to Jack and didn't expect the relationship to go the distance and figured sooner or later Jack would move on to someone else which probably wasn't all that an unreasonable fear to have with someone like Jack. I don't have any particular love for COE, but it is the closest we ever come on screen to Ianto articulating his view of the relationship and, while I suspect there's some fudging because he probably doesn't want to be having this conversation with his sister, it does suggest he doesn't feel all that secure that there is even much of a real relationship there. Or maybe he just didn't want to acknowledge there might be a real relationship there so he wouldn't feel as blindsided when it went south because he clearly expected it to end one way or another.

[itsmeyousee]

But Jack left Swansong to help the Doctor, just like all the other companions and Jack is no different. It's not about Jack and where he wants to be. It's if the Doctor calls or Jack thinks he needs help, Jack is gone. There isn't a question everyone comes second to the Doctor and that's what i meant by inevitable. And that's why i don't think of the Doctor in these circumstances, all the companions act the same regardless of who they are with either. Like Martha she made a choice after that year, doesn't stop her next time round though.

 

I think both Ianto and Jack have the same insecurities for different reasons. Jack's is based on the past, he doesn't believe or doesn't think anyone who knows all his secrets will stay. Ianto's are more about like you said his place in Jack's life but it's a huge amount of reasons that Jack would leave cause Jack has a huge amount of baggage LOL that Ianto feels he is competing with or can't compete with.

[Swansong]

 

But Jack left Swansong to help the Doctor, just like all the other companions and Jack is no different. It's not about Jack and where he wants to be. It's if the Doctor calls or Jack thinks he needs help, Jack is gone.

I do think the Doctor is very important to all the companions, I'm not really arguing against that, but also for the most part I think Jack cares about his friends and if he believed they needed his help he'd try and be there if he could. I don't think that's specifically unique to the Doctor. And particularly in this case Torchwood couldn't do anything in what was a pretty huge crisis, before the Doctor showed up they all thought everything was lost, and he and everyone else believed the Doctor was their best bet so finding him would help them solve the crisis. The more important thing for me is the moment the crisis was over he came home.  And I think Jack leaving to help the Doctor in these circumstances is something Ianto, at least the one we meet in s1 and s2, would understand and be ok with as long as Jack still wanted to come home when it's over. I don't think Ianto's fears are over the fact that Jack might want to go and help the Doctor if he needed help. I think if it was just about that he'd be fine. I think his fear is that he can't imagine why Jack would want to stick around with them (him) when there are more exciting things and people out there that Jack potentially has access to. But I don't think it's really about that for Jack at least not at that point. 

Edited August 28, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

.  And that's why i don't think of the Doctor in these circumstances, all the companions act the same regardless of who they are with either.

 

I think we are saying the same thing Swansong but it's the bold part that i was referring to, me. When i think of Ianto being jealous i tend not to think of the Doctor. because Jack is no different from any other companion.

 

It started with Luckylyn , Captanne and Indeed referring to the Doctor and ianto being jealous and i just don't think of him. The Doctor never pops into my head because of the very different relationship Jack has with him but that also goes for the other companions as well.

[Dizzy76]

I've been reading your guys' thoughts for the last couple of days and trying to put to words my take on things.  Not sure how successful I'll be because I kind of agree with bits and pieces from everyone. 

 

Just from watching the show alone, I'm not sure why Ianto never seems jealous of someone like Gwen or Martha.  However, when I apply things I know from outside of the show itself, I feel like it makes more sense.  Ianto not being jealous of Martha makes sense because he knows that Martha is a good friend and nothing more.  No explanation for why he doesn't tell her to mind her own business when she asks about his sex life with Jack but I'm just going to pretend that maybe Ianto wanted to blab to someone about it and Martha bringing it up gave him an opportunity to talk about when he wouldn't have otherwise.  Best I've got concerning that moment.

 

As for Gwen, I admit that I really really love that Ianto never seems to be jealous of her because it helps me hold firm to my head canon that Ianto understands that what Jack feels for Gwen isn't something to be threatened by.  I also like to believe that Jack deep down knows that if he and Gwen had ever crossed the line and got together, that it wouldn't end well.  Looking outside of the show itself, Jack does care about Gwen and doesn't want to loose her to normal life (even as he tries to push her to maintain it) but I don't ever get the sense that he's in love with her in any real way.  We talk a lot about Gwen loving the persona and the hero-ness of Jack more than Jack himself and I kind of see the same thing happening with Jack.  He loves what Gwen represents and feels he needs her to help him remember what Torchwood is suppose to be fighting for.  But like we talked about before, a lot of what Jack seems to find so special about Gwen isn't really there when you look at who she is from day to day.  All that to say that in my head, I always kind of see Ianto as getting what Jack and Gwen get from each other (she needs a hero, he needs someone to be a hero for) but knows that regardless of the looks and declarations, Jack wouldn't go there with Gwen because she'd stop being what he needs from her if they really got together. 

 

As for the men in Jack's life, I agree that Ianto's jealousy is shown but I don't think it's because he doesn't get jealous of women only men.  I think the men that we see during Ianto's time are legit threats.  John Hart is not only someone who Jack was with "in every way" but who is a part of Jack's life that Ianto knows nothing about.  He knows Jack in a way that Ianto can't ever know.  Plus, John is one of 2 people that Ianto knows can offer Jack something he can't.  Finding out that Jack is not from this time and that John Hart can take Jack back to his own time must sting a little.  And as much action as Torchwood sees, Ianto can't give Jack the same kind of adventure that John can out amongst the stars.

 

Which brings me to the Doctor.  I'm not sure if I believe that Ianto is jealous of the Doctor because he thinks Jack is in love with him (although I can totally buy that he thought so when Jack ran off the first time).  I do however firmly believe that the Doctor represents the ultimate fear - Jack leaving him again.  Just like John, the Doctor can travel through time and space and give Jack a life that Ianto can't possibly compete with.  Plus, if we bring in the issue of lifespan, Ianto knows that he doesn't have long with Jack while the Doctor will be around for a very long time.  The Doctor will get to be a part of Jack's future as well as being a part of his past and for someone that fears that he won't be remembered or be important enough to make an impact, that's got to hurt a bit.  So even without adding in any romantic feelings, the Doctor will naturally outlast Ianto in Jack's life.

 

Isn't it Deadline where Ianto talks about watching Jack sleep and hoping that Jack's dreaming of him when he's smiling but knowing that he isn't?  I need to go re-listen to that but that moment always came across to me as Ianto thinking that Jack is dreaming of adventures and space and the fascinating things/people he's come across in his long life amongst the universe.  That Ianto is remembering Jack's stories of fun times and forward thinking places and comparing those to what day to day life is like at Torchwood.  That Ianto is comparing those places and people with himself and coming up short.  People like John and the Doctor have experienced those things with Jack.  The Doctor even trumps Ianto at saving the world and maybe Jack is dreaming of being right there beside the Doctor as he does it. 

 

I agree that for Jack (like just about every other companion) the Doctor will always come first.  I tend to agree more with Itsmeyousee's and Swansong's take on why that is but I will say that during S1, the Doctor came first in Jack's life on every level.  Something I would have loved to read about (or hear a little bit about on the show) is the change that happened for Jack during TYTNW.  I think that year Jack spent chained up and tortured did a lot to flip the switch concerning his thoughts about the Doctor and then his Torchwood team.  I agree with Swansong that Jack's initial plans were to leave with the Doctor and never look back.  When the Tardis came, he just grabbed his bag and acted on instinct.  And maybe it would have happened eventually after traveling with the Doctor for a while but TYTNW definitely forced Jack to put things in perspective.  I like to think that once he thought about it, he realized that his team were more important than he was admitting at the time and that he had come to think of them as his family.  Plus, this wasn't his Doctor anymore and the man that he had been waiting for and willing to throw everything else away for just wasn't there anymore.  He wasn't going to get what he needed for this regeneration.  So, when the Doctor asked him to travel, Jack said no.  I do wonder sometimes though if he had been talking to the 9th Doctor, whether his answer would have been the same.  Maybe it would have considering that the Doctor didn't love him like that and would have still left him alone on the game station. 

 

I think I've only written about half of the stuff that's in my head.  I know there were some other things that popped out at me that I wanted to comment on but this is already really long.  I did want to say that I think Ianto understands that Jack will always go when the Doctor calls and is ok with that but agree that for him the real issue is of whether Jack comes back or not. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

Yes Dizzy , it's Deadline. My poor baby but at the same time i think Ianto is trying to be realistic , how can he compare with the life Jack has already lived and will continue to live.

 

i think it's harder to understand Ianto when it comes to Jack and Gwen, cause he clearly has feelings. But when we have seen them they have been more on a general sense or group sense rather than just how Ianto feels personally.

[itsmeyousee]

Certain things can't be changed, even though i would love them to not happening, so i try not to dwell.

 

1. RTD writing style - The Main characters are everything and the minor characters don't get their own story. So Ianto is always going to be a "prop" for lack of a better word for Jack. But JB and GDL gave them depth and equality that RTD can't.

 

2. Gwen is all - that simple. Despite Gwen having her own arc with Rhys and supposedly choosing him and that life. There will always be a glimmer of Gwack because Gwen is all.

 

So ignoring those bits LOL I think having the major "hearthrob" leading man cause that's how they sell Jack, in a relationship without it being the focal point is actually a great thing. And the fact that the relationship was with an employee but still wasn't the focal point and a guy even better. For once we just had these two people working and being together without the show having to be about that. It could be about other aspects of their lives, like work which is why we are watching. Moments here, moments there was what i enjoyed and it seemed normal. And to me that was the best thing about them how normal Jack and Ianto were.

 

That's not to say they didn't have big hurdles to climb and sure we didn't see the ins and outs of the hurdles but we knew they climbed them. And real trust was at the core of their relationship which made them all the more interesting. Because i don't think Jack ever had that before, we have Jack constantly waiting for the bad part to happen and it didn't. Then we have Ianto, who needs to be needed and Jack did even when Jack didn't know it. Which in the end is what makes Ianto death even sadder, they both found what each other was looking for. It wasn't perfect but it was good for them.

 

I think if we had more personal stuff , it wouldn't have worked as well. I didn't need to see them dating. Jack asked, they were together, so they went out on dates. I don''t think it could have been just about sex either, they were together 24/7. They would have to like each others company.,no sex is that great LOL sorry it just isn't.

 

I would have liked more clarity sure but with points 1 and 2 above never going to happen

[Luckylyn]

I have mixed feelings about how Jack/Ianto was handled.  on the one hand I like your point that:

 

For once we just had these two people working and being together without the show having to be about that. It could be about other aspects of their lives, like work which is why we are watching. Moments here, moments there was what i enjoyed and it seemed normal. And to me that was the best thing about them how normal Jack and Ianto were.

I don't need relationship drama to enjoy a couple together.  I don't think romantic contentment and stability equals boring.  Jack and Ianto are fascinating people apart and together.  They can be compelling without make up/break up b.s.

 

One the other hand, there was some major issues with how the dynamic between them was handled.  Certain obstacles like how Ianto went from wishing hell on Jack to the stop watch offer is just not dealt with.  The important bridges to how character get from one point to another get glossed over or skipped entirely.  In COE I wasn't certain what Ianto was supposed to mean to Jack because of the lack of consistency in writing and the fact that some key developments happened off screen.

 

I think the show runner's need to make all roads lead to Gwen really made the show suffer as a whole and contributed to Jack/Ianto not getting the development onscreen that Gwen got with both Jack and Rhys.  For example, we see Jack comfort Gwen over Ianto's death, but she doesn't comfort him.  Her loss is the focal point for the writers even though logically Jack's grief over the death of Ianto should be.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Luckylyn

[itsmeyousee]

I agree with you Luckylyn But i can't change points 1 or 2. So we will never get the depth of their relationship from RTD and Gwen is all.

 

But watching it, i didn't need to see how the hurdles got passed. To me it was more important that they did get pass them and that they were happy together. And it seemed like they were. I get more fussed about Ianto not existing for this ep or that scene to Jack , stuff like that is more my bug bear. Because it makes me question Jack's character, who he is as a person and half the time i end up with buggered if i'd know. And then i question Ianto and why would he bother ?

[Swansong]

 

Certain obstacles like how Ianto went from wishing hell on Jack to the stop watch offer is just not dealt with.  The important bridges to how character get from one point to another get glossed over or skipped entirely.  In COE I wasn't certain what Ianto was supposed to mean to Jack because of the lack of inconsistency in writing and the fact that some key developments happened off screen.

For me the show glosses almost as much over developing their on-screen working relationship over the course of the seasons as it does over their personal relationship which is why the writing of the relationship ultimately seems so weak. It's not because we don't see them going on dates or arguing over who left the cap off the toothpaste or whatever. It's because we never see them outside of their work relationship, but their working relationship mostly consists of little more than Ianto just happening to share the same scene Jack while Jack's relationship with someone else, usually Gwen or Owen or some guest character is actually developed. If some significant development happens between them that apparently happens off screen and is never mentioned on-screen. The actors have an easy rapport on-screen and that works for the characters, but I never really got the sense the writers put any more thought into their working relationship than they did in their personal. I enjoy their rare individual scenes and enjoy the idea, at least in theory, that they're professional on the job, but I feel like that's more happenstance and me wanting to put the best spin on things than necessarily intended. 

 

 

I think if we had more personal stuff , it wouldn't have worked as well. I didn't need to see them dating. Jack asked, they were together, so they went out on dates. I don''t think it could have been just about sex either, they were together 24/7. They would have to like each others company.,no sex is that great LOL sorry it just isn't.

I can't say I'd take any of that as a given though. The few times we see Jack outside of work Ianto is no-where around and the one time we get close to see Ianto doing something after hours in s2 he goes with Gwen and Owen not Jack,who doesn't even know where he is, even though Jack would have made more sense to go with particularly since neither Gwen or Owen seem all that interested in being there. In Adam Jack apparently isn't expecting to find Ianto when he returns to the Hub. At the end of SB Jack  presumably chooses to go back to the Hub and his memories alone, no idea what happens to Ianto. If anything there's more evidence that they don't actually spend all that much time with each other after work than anything that really suggests they do. And other than Gwen's comment about in reference to Jack saying he needs Ianto's local knowledge there's never even a reference to them doing anything after hours outside of sex before s3. And even then they supposedly were out on an intimate dinner date when Rhiannon's friend saw them, but apparently being out in public as a couple with Jack is still so new to Ianto he freaks out over Doctor Rupesh noticing it (even though they want him believing they're just some couple). So is that supposed to be a new thing for them? Or is it that Ianto can only handle being potentially seen as a couple if dinner is involved?

 

 

I get more fussed about Ianto not existing for this ep or that scene to Jack , stuff like that is more my bug bear. Because it makes me question Jack's character, who he is as a person and half the time i end up with buggered if i'd know. And then i question Ianto and why would he bother ?

That's why it is a problem for me. If the way they were written was still slight, but relatively consistent that would be one thing, but we don't even get that when they do bother to remember them. It seems to veer from yes Ianto matters to Jack one episode to 'Ianto, who?'.

Edited October 19, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

For me the show glosses almost as much over developing their on-screen working relationship over the course of the seasons as it does over their personal relationship which is why the writing of the relationship ultimately seems so weak. It's not because we don't see them going on dates or arguing over who left the cap off the toothpaste or whatever. It's because we never see them outside of their work relationship, but their working relationship mostly consists of little more than Ianto just happening to share the same scene Jack while Jack's relationship with someone else, usually Gwen or Owen or some guest character is actually developed. If some significant development happens between them that apparently happens off screen and is never mentioned on-screen. The actors have an easy rapport on-screen and that works for the characters, but I never really got the sense the writers put any more thought into their working relationship than they did in their personal. I enjoy their rare individual scenes and enjoy the idea, at least in theory, that they're professional on the job, but I feel like that's more happenstance and me wanting to put the best spin on things than necessarily intended. 

 

 

 

 

Like i said i can't change points 1 or 2. RTD writing or his team writing style sucks especially if you are a minor character like Ianto. Ianto isn't going to have any big story of his own , it's only going to be in context of Jack. Just like Rhys is for Gwen or Tosh was for Owen or everyone else to Gwen. It's annoying and sucky and lame but i still can't change it, so no use getting caught up with how it should have been and i just look at what was. And i was okay with how we saw them except for moments when Jack is a total self absorbed prick, then i'm left thinking WTF. I'm not disagreeing i just focus on other parts.

 

 

 

I can't say I'd take any of that as a given though. The few times we see Jack outside of work Ianto is no-where around and the one time we get close to see Ianto doing something after hours in s2 he goes with Gwen and Owen not Jack,who doesn't even know where he is, even though Jack would have made more sense to go with particularly since neither Gwen or Owen seem all that interested in being there. In Adam Jack apparently isn't expecting to find Ianto when he returns to the Hub. At the end of SB Jack  presumably chooses to go back to the Hub and his memories alone, no idea what happens to Ianto. If anything there's more evidence that they don't actually spend all that much time with each other after work than anything that really suggests they do. And other than Gwen's comment about in reference to Jack saying he needs Ianto's local knowledge there's never even a reference to them doing anything after hours outside of sex before s3. And even then they supposedly were out on an intimate dinner date when Rhiannon's friend saw them, but apparently being out in public as a couple with Jack is still so new to Ianto he freaks out over Doctor Rupesh noticing it (even though they want him believing they're just some couple). So is that supposed to be a new thing for them? Or is it that Ianto can only handle being potentially seen as a couple if dinner is involved?

 

 

 

Lots of examples there. But i'll try one for one

 

FOOTR - Tosh just says the Cinema opening Ianto wanted to check out and Jack goes straight there without asking what cinema or where or phoning or anything. So who is to say that Jack wasn't interested when Ianto first mentioned it or something. I don't see that as a bad thing , a forgetful thing sure but not some indication of their relationship after hours.

 

Adam - Who knows how late it is ? And Jack is very much in his own world with his memories, so nothing bad there either

 

SB - Would you even want to be around Jack after that , maybe Ianto just went home cause he was tired certainly seemed like they all had a big night cleaning up the evidence. Jack was a bastard in the ep. But i'm not thinking Jack doesn't want sex so Ianto can F off or anything.

 

FOOTR - Gwen's comment, it's Gwen. Do you honestly think she has any idea about any of them after hours ?

 

COE - I don't think it's being a couple that "freaks" ianto out. It's being called on it and not knowing what to say since Jack has the "Naming" bug bear up his arse with our quaint 21st century ways. I think he is nervous because he is expecting a different reaction which blindsides him and when he does ask for clarity he doesn't get it. But Jack is so non pluss in the hospital , i don't think he gets why Ianto has a reaction.

 

Whether they are guys or not, there has to be more to them then just sex cause sex is easy to find with lots less complications than these two would have.

[Luckylyn]

COE - I don't think it's being a couple that "freaks" ianto out. It's being called on it and not knowing what to say since Jack has the "Naming" bug bear up his arse with our quaint 21st century ways. I think he is nervous because he is expecting a different reaction which blindsides him and when he does ask for clarity he doesn't get it. But Jack is so non pluss in the hospital , i don't think he gets why Ianto has a reaction.

That's my interpretation as well.  Ianto tells his sister not to broadcast his relationship with Jack because he doesn't know what it is yet.   I feel like  the Deadline and Submission established Ianto's belief that whatever he and Jack had was temporary but the longer it goes on the less temporary it probably feels.  I think trying to figure out what his and Jack's status is the thing that Ianto's struggling with in COE and why he's trying to get some clarity from Jack.  Ianto's been bracing himself for a break up that doesn't seem to be happening.  It makes me think of a fanfic where Ianto bumps into an old friend and stumbles when introducing Jack to her because he doesn't know if Jack's his friend with benefits or his boyfriend.

 

 

Whether they are guys or not, there has to be more to them then just sex cause sex is easy to find with lots less complications than these two would have.

I totally agree.  If all Jack wanted was sex he could certainly find it easier and with less baggage than with Ianto.   I do think Jack's history with people like Angelo and Lucia are why he refuses to label things with Ianto or consider the future.  Jack knows he and Ianto have an expiration date. I think Jack believes Ianto will betray him like Angelo, resent him for being immortal like Lucia, or even if Ianto stays loyal will leave Jack in death.  I think Jack is determined to think only of the present with Ianto and just doesn't want to think about the inevitable future heartbreak loving Ianto would cause.  He can't walk away from Ianto, but he won't let himself admit how Ianto is to him either.  There could never be a happy ending for them even if they lasted 50 years together because Jack's immortality means all his relationships must end.   Loss is his constant.  I wish the show hadn't forced me to fanwank all of that and just let the show deal head on with the issues that an immortal being involved with a mortal would bring like with Tessa and Macleod on Highlander.

[Captanne]

I'm not sure that's fanwanking, Luckylyn as much as it is "stating the obvious".  The problem is that we've got an amazingly rich existential question -- how does Jack cope with immortality and, in specific, with love?  (Which, I have pointed out before, makes Jack that much more tragic because he loves love so much.  He has such a joie de vivre.)

 

It's obvious to you and to me and to even a casual audience but couldn't be mined (or minded?) by the writers.

 

Such opportunities lost.

 

ETA:  And by "stating the obvious" I don't mean that it's an easy interpretation other than the fact that we see it because we care.  Why couldn't the writers latch onto it?  

Edited October 19, 2014 by Captanne