sistermagpie June 26, 2016 Share June 26, 2016 Rewatching The Benefactor it’s interesting seeing the wives in early seasons—Betty and Jennifer. I’d practically forgotten we’d ever seen Jennifer at all so it’ll be interesting to see what more of her we see. This is the ep where Betty is called “profoundly sad” and it ends with her crying with Don in the car on the way home from the dinner with the Utz couple. It’s interesting watching this early stuff where Betty really is committed to being bright and happy and “grateful” as she says. She tells Don she’s crying because she’s so happy but she definitely doesn’t seem to be crying happy tears. It’s possible at this point she doesn’t even know she’s not happy, at least not so profoundly so. Seeing this it’s easy to see how once she admitted to herself how she felt she was so bitter and angry. The car ride also foreshadows the later car ride where Betty, instead of crying, is just going to vomit all over the Caddy. It also made me think for a moment about Milk & Honey route when Pete tries to get Trudy to go out to dinner with him for “old times’ sake” with a client and she claims she was always bored by the dinners. I think she’s lying there—she probably did enjoy “making a good team” with her husband just as Betty did here, but it’s another sign of the times that she’s taking a stand for herself and not just asking to be part of her husband’s life the way Betty seems to feel is the big prize here. This elsewhere in the ep Lois gets fired for not being able to be the same kind of “team” to Don as Bobbie is for Jimmy and Betty is for Don. (Joan of course will be.) She blunders by being far too honest, referring to her job being to “cover” for Don while he gets offended at having it described so honestly—although Roger obviously doesn’t trust that when he’s out of the office he’s at the printer. Lois is the one that gets fired for a debacle where four professional men created the problem. I like the little reminders of Peggy’s story where the melodramatic ep of The Defendants has a father slapping his daughter for getting pregnant. This scene is shown for the Belle Jolie guy who meets briefly again with Sal, who’s been a “good girl” by getting married and *not* sleeping with him. But in the end it’s bad girl Peggy who seems to come out happier. Peggy's sister is another good girl, of course. Random Ken interjections: You know his mother is heavyset. Three Sundays...always loved this ep. Don’s definitely got his groove back thanks to Bobbie Barrett. Now that he’s been bad he can go home and be good. You can see why he quotes that line later to Joan in the bar. Betty’s reading Babylon Revisited. It’s F Scott Fitzgerald, the author of Diamond as Big as the Ritz, which was brought up to her at the stables. It’s cool that it seems to have put the author in her head to read, without her just obviously reading the story she said she didn’t know (not even sure if she was telling the truth there). Meanwhile those Bloody Marys Sally makes have so much liquor they’re nearly pink. “You think you’d be the man you are today if your father didn’t hit you?” Jesus, there’s a question Don doesn’t want to think about! I love how Margaret goes through so many different angry poses and different attacks on her father. It’s actually sad watching it now knowing that she may wind up truly lost in the end. Not that she couldn’t come back and rebuild her relationship with her son, but it’s also easy to believe that her troubled relationship with her father will keep her from ever really being a mother. I’ve always loved Don’s lines to Bobby: Mommy says you broke the Hi-Fi. I believe her. I just love that he explains that he believes her—like it’s not just Mommy saying things, it’s Don believing her too. He could easily be talking to one of the guys at the office like Harry, Pete or Ken. I also love that Bobby’s such a relentless fool in this ep—obviously screwing around with the stereo in full view and then putting his chin on the griddle. His reaction is a bit unrealistic. That kind of burn would have him screaming nonstop for the rest of the scene. Sally’s clapping is awesome. I’m surprised Roger’s not there for American Airlines work, but this is before he tries to get involved in things other than Lucky Strikes. Also there’s definitely a little info in how Don points out that even he’s at home usually on Sunday morning but Roger’s in a hotel room later in the day. He was the most checked-out of fathers. Sally asking “Is that your maid?” of the picture on Paul's desk is one of the best lines on the show too. Don’t think there aren’t white kids who wouldn’t say that today either. Sally’s already very interested in sex at this age, and it’s even more interesting in the context of the whole show. Because it’s not like she’s ever primarily interested in doing it herself—at least not unusually so. But she’s already picked up that there’s some kind of power in it and that’s what she’ll be trying to work out throughout the show. What is it about it that is so alluring? She’s not even like Glen the bathroom peeper. He seems more like he’s trying to find affection and attention. Sally’s after something else. Part of it is probably just the message she gets from society but I think Don is central to it too. Don’s impromptu speech about how there’s no such thing as American History and Sal’s “What does that mean?” response reminds me of The Crash—because here it does obviously mean something. There, not so much. Peggy’s sister does some amazing multi-layered lying in that confessional. This is another one of those moments where the show reminds you how people used to act like a man being violent towards a woman was completely normal. I don’t find Don very scary when he throws the robot or pushes Betty. I mean, obviously he’s being inappropriate and I’d be scared if I was Bobby, but his anger seems very controlled. His frustration makes him do things he wouldn’t have done otherwise, but he doesn’t seem abusive to me. It’s in fact not even like Betty in later seasons. Angry Betty seems to sometimes be barely holding herself back from being more hurtful where Don seems disgusted even with what he does here. He’s just not a guy who gets satisfaction out of physical violence. This Bobby/Don scene is one of my favorites. (That must be one of those moments where Don realizes how much he loves his son!) Bobby’s lines all seem believable to me and I love Don saying his father looked like him, but bigger. Because in his mind his father will always be bigger. I like how on this show the men with the two most violent fathers—Don and Lane—aren’t abusers themselves. Don’t mean that as a judgment on people who suffer abuse and do become violent—that’s an understandable reaction. But there’s so much of that on other anti-hero shows I like how this one deals with other cliches of masculinity instead. Throughout the series people often said that MW, as an acolyte of David Chase, believed that people didn’t change. But I think even this early you can see Don showing that this is a universe where people can learn lessons that stick. It’s never so simple as having an epiphany in the moment—that’s like Roger and his LSD. But at the end of this ep Don’s able to just explain how experience with his own father taught him that abuse isn’t a good thing, so he doesn’t do that. Not that Don started out abusive and had to change—I don’t mean that. But there’s times in the series where you can see characters actually learn through living through something something that they believe, and when they do they sometimes say it to other people like Don does to Betty here. Peggy does it more than once, Pete does it. It’s just always enjoyable hearing characters talk from that perspective because you can tell the difference. Don shares a lot about himself in this ep with his family and you can tell they all really like it. Though Don had already told Bobby his dad was a farmer. Don never actually lies about his past. He’s not trying to pass himself off as someone born into a higher class. It’s the details he covers up. Watching Peggy at the Easter Egg hunt makes me think of her “playgrounds” line to Don in The Suitcase, though here she may still be in denial—as her sister says, she acts like it never happened. Also her being given that egg makes me think of Pete giving her his cactus in the last ep, maybe because everything about the two gifts and scenes are completely different. And in a way so perfectly symbolic of Peggy. The egg is given to her in a church in Brooklyn, it’s a symbol of children and the traditional life she left behind--babies and Easter. She’s not sure how to react to it because she hasn’t worked through everything. The cactus she understands and accepts with affection from Pete. It’s non-threatening because it is all worked out and forgiven. Some people always read it as insensitive whenever Pete mentions his child in front of Peggy, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on there. 7 Link to comment
Melancholy June 26, 2016 Share June 26, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, sistermagpie said: This elsewhere in the ep Lois gets fired for not being able to be the same kind of “team” to Don as Bobbie is for Jimmy and Betty is for Don. (Joan of course will be.) She blunders by being far too honest, referring to her job being to “cover” for Don while he gets offended at having it described so honestly—although Roger obviously doesn’t trust that when he’s out of the office he’s at the printer. Lois is the one that gets fired for a debacle where four professional men created the problem. Technically, Lois is transferred back to the switchboard instead of fired. And then, she negotiates her way back into being a secretary at the end ac S2 in exchange for telling the guys about the PPL merger. It seems like she's Kinseys' secretary in S3. Then, she drove the tractor and ran over Guy McKendrick's foot AND STILL DIDN'T GET FIRED. LOL. But yeah, going back to the switchboard was a demotion. More aggravating, less stimulating work. Less chances to socialize with more people in the office beyond the other like, two, women on the switchboard. I think to Lois, she was particularly upset that she wasn't in a position to meet marriageable men on the switchboard. Maybe I'm a softie but IMO, Freddy and Ken didn't screw up. No way could Freddy stop Jimmy from drinking through his "at the bar scene." Until disaster struck I don't think it would have occurred to anyone at SC to limit Jimmy's booze intake. I also don't think Ken could have kept the Shillings off the set of their own commercial. I just think the situation was unavoidable because the Shillings' favorite comedian's whole shtick is to be horribly insulting but the Shillings couldn't take it. It's quite probable that Don is just so unusually good at knowing about social landmines and manipulating people oddly to avoid the landmines that only HE could have known that the Shillings couldn't see their own commercial being filmed and would have kept them off set- even that's counter-intuitive on its own. Knowing Don, I can buy that. However, that just means that Don, particularly, screwed up by being the movies at the time. Ken and Freddy were being competent. Quote I love how Margaret goes through so many different angry poses and different attacks on her father. It’s actually sad watching it now knowing that she may wind up truly lost in the end. Not that she couldn’t come back and rebuild her relationship with her son, but it’s also easy to believe that her troubled relationship with her father will keep her from ever really being a mother. Yup. The secondary characters like Margaret or Kinsey really run the gamut on "Only In The 1960s Personalities", comforting themselves in their elite white rich or upwardly mobile (and male for Kinsey) positions with some youthful foreshadowy idealizing remarks and then, ending up totally off the grid and firmly in the counter-culture. The main characters don't make such a transformation- like other than Stan and Megan embracing the looks of hippiedom but having pretty damn establishment values. Quote I’m surprised Roger’s not there for American Airlines work, but this is before he tries to get involved in things other than Lucky Strikes. Also there’s definitely a little info in how Don points out that even he’s at home usually on Sunday morning but Roger’s in a hotel room later in the day. He was the most checked-out of fathers. It's unbelievable. Roger was the partner who was the most firmly anti-being loyal to Mohawk in the bid to get American Airlines. However, Roger flakes on attending the work day devoted to being ready for AA when they moved up the presentation on the calendar. I feel like Roger was actually somewhat engaged in work in S1, although still pretty lazy and childish. He was the driving force between trying to get Menkens and Israeli tourism and he played second fiddle to Bert but he was also invested in repping Nixon. You could some brushstrokes of Roger eating crow and having unpleasant conversations to retain Don as a free-agent employee. I think Roger's heart-attack actually did affect Roger- but not in the virtuous "I spent the last twenty years like I've been on a shore leave" as it was promised but instead, it motivated Roger to have much as fun as possible by working even less and leaving Mona for Jane, no matter what it did to anyone else. Because Roger doesn't care about any non-Lucky Strike work in S2-4, with the exception of his tantrum about not being put on the Hilton account where it felt that Roger was throwing the tantrum more because he felt spurned by Don as a best friend more than because he really wanted to work the account. In a little fairness to Roger, Margaret was practically out of her childhood door when Roger was sexing up the hooker on Sunday morning. Margaret didn't really need regular weekend nurturing from her parents at her age. However, I do think Roger was probably the most checked out father- and pulled that crap a lot when Margaret was little. Like, I can't picture Don or Pete ever feeling, let alone saying, stuff like "I cannot wait until that girl is another man's problem" or even "We gave her everything and she's still...useless" about their kids. Quote Sally’s already very interested in sex at this age, and it’s even more interesting in the context of the whole show. Because it’s not like she’s ever primarily interested in doing it herself—at least not unusually so. But she’s already picked up that there’s some kind of power in it and that’s what she’ll be trying to work out throughout the show. What is it about it that is so alluring? She’s not even like Glen the bathroom peeper. He seems more like he’s trying to find affection and attention. Sally’s after something else. Part of it is probably just the message she gets from society but I think Don is central to it too. Betty is also central to it. Especially when she was younger, Sally feels, like most little girls, that she should live up to her beautiful mother. "You have big ones. My mommy has big ones. And I'm going to have big ones when I grow up!" Betty reinforces the message with her focus on appearance and stuff like: Betty: Did somebody get a lot of valentines? Sally: They made everybody give one to everybody else. Betty: That defeats the purpose. I feel like Sally develops her S1-3 interest in sex from mostly from Betty- and how she internalized that there's a power to being beautiful to men. Sally builds on that and her interest in sex in S4-5 is mostly driven by how it's a way to Don's heart and life that she's excluded from as his daughter. It comes up as an enviable route to maturity in most of S6 when Sally feels like a bit of a little kid sidekick to her her violinist friend and her bad seed Model UN friend- and then, a way to have power to inflict pain both as the recipient and the person who uses the power when she catches Don with Sylvia and the convoluted drama at the Miss Porters room right afterwards. Quote This is another one of those moments where the show reminds you how people used to act like a man being violent towards a woman was completely normal. I don’t find Don very scary when he throws the robot or pushes Betty. I mean, obviously he’s being inappropriate and I’d be scared if I was Bobby, but his anger seems very controlled. His frustration makes him do things he wouldn’t have done otherwise, but he doesn’t seem abusive to me. It’s in fact not even like Betty in later seasons. Angry Betty seems to sometimes be barely holding herself back from being more hurtful where Don seems disgusted even with what he does here. He’s just not a guy who gets satisfaction out of physical violence. I agree that he's pretty controlled in his physicality- and then, he feels disgusted with himself when he's acts out violently. I think this is unusual for people but IMO, I think Don shows more control in his physical outbursts than his verbal ones in this scene. He's very deliberately proving a point to Betty that physically disciplining children is necessarily ugly by throwing the robot. "Is that what you wanted?" And then, he's deliberately proving a "You shove me, than I'll shove you back" to Betty. However, I feel like his words get away from him. He came into the house with a clear intention to bottle up his work-anger- and specifically refused to talk about it when Betty asked. However over the course of the scene, he gets angry enough that it's "You want me to bring home when I got in the office today? I'd put you through that window." Quote Don shares a lot about himself in this ep with his family and you can tell they all really like it. Though Don had already told Bobby his dad was a farmer. Don never actually lies about his past. He’s not trying to pass himself off as someone born into a higher class. It’s the details he covers up. I agree that. I think that's a statement on class in America. There's no shame in generally speaking that you were raised poor. The shame is the details of break-breaking poverty. Most Americans believe, then and now, in the abstract, that being born is nothing to be ashamed of and actually, it's a source of pride to be born and but then, become a rich adult. However, that doesn't mean that people would ever want to hear the details of an impoverished childhood the way that they'd love to talk about a shared rich or middle-class childhood. Or that if they heard the unseemly, gory details of Don's life that they wouldn't walk away with an impression that he's too weird and dirty to ever trust him. Or that terms like "comes from a good family" or "educated" (terms that Don, himself, used to describe Betty to Anna) are supposed to connote unprejudiced value to someone's character to make them a good bet for marriage or hiring but they're rooted in growing up with at least some class privilege. Quote Some people always read it as insensitive whenever Pete mentions his child in front of Peggy, but I don’t think that’s what’s going on there. Really? That's unfair. Partly because Peggy giving away their child is a source of pain to Pete too. Peggy didn't just abort a fetus- just a group of cells as part of her body, completely in her domain. She gave away Pete's living, breathing child. And Peggy told Pete to primarily, inform him of just how much she rejects him as a romantic suitor. Now, I think that adoption was the best outcome here and Pete/Peggy just weren't set up to raise a child together at the end of S1. Both of their personalities wouldn't have taken well to being forced into it and that would have inevitably affected the child. So, I still think adoption was the way to go, even if the child wasn't adopted into a wonderful family (unless the child really was put in an impoverished or abusive home). I think the priest was insensitive to outright rude because it's not his place to get involved. I know that the priest assumes that it's his place because he's Peggy's priest, and thus, he's supposed to get involved in her emotional/spiritual issues. However, I think the story makes a point of how domineering and invasive that attitude is in spiritual leaders- and how no far-away bystander has a blank check to offer unwanted, unasked for guilt-tripping. However, that's not Pete's situation. Pete's actually in the thick of the situation and he's welcome to weigh in. But what's more, despite his pain, I think Pete only obliquely brings up their child in the spirit of generosity. See Person to Person, or him clearly thinking about their kid motivating him to prepare Peggy for the McCann buy-out. Pete was snide and angry when he made the oblique "Your decisions affect me" remark about Peggy considering going with Duck because Pete was still upset about losing a child...but I think that's an emotion that Pete has a total right to. Edited June 26, 2016 by Melancholy 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 26, 2016 Share June 26, 2016 8 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Maybe I'm a softie but IMO, Freddy and Ken didn't screw up. Oh, I don't think they did either. It just seems like of everyone Lois is the one that loses her job (though just the job at Don's desk, you're right; she's not fired from the company) while Freddie and Ken just get yelled at. I just meant that there were four men involved in this visit to the set (Ken, Freddy, Don and Jimmy himself) with Jimmy being the one who's really at fault, and Don presumably being out of the office doing something personal, while I can't even quite get what Lois was supposed to do. Don wasn't in the office...how could she have stopped anyone going anywhere? I'd say the same about Ken, too, of course. And while Freddy probably can't be trusted to stop anyone from drinking, I doubt anybody could have stopped Jimmy. It's just sad that Don's solution is to fire his secretary and even she is like "I don't get what I should have done?" 12 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Because Roger doesn't care about any non-Lucky Strike work in S2-4, with the exception of his tantrum about not being put on the Hilton account where it felt that Roger was throwing the tantrum more because he felt spurned by Don as a best friend more than because he really wanted to work the account. I do think the heart attack is at the center of that--he feels mortal, that's when he gets all the more interested in not just young women but a young wife. Though in terms of his Sunday in the hotel I didn't mean that that specifically was a problem for Margaret. It just reminded me that it seems like both Margaret and Mona were not used to him being around at any particular point, even more than Don, possibly. So I can't imagine him ever saying "I'm at home--where else would I be on a Sunday?" the way Don can, even though we know Don's got a crazy schedule too. He just seems like the least domestic of anybody. Btw, just watched The New Girl and Roger's literally playing with a paddle ball in his office. 15 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Betty is also central to it. Especially when she was younger, Sally feels, like most little girls, that she should live up to her beautiful mother. "You have big ones. My mommy has big ones. And I'm going to have big ones when I grow up!" Betty reinforces the message with her focus on appearance and stuff like: Oh yeah, I should have noted that Betty is probably the biggest deliverer of society's standards to Sally. She sees things playing out with her parents she doesn't quite understand when she's young too. 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: Really? That's unfair. Partly because Peggy giving away their child is a source of pain to Pete too. Peggy didn't just abort a fetus- just a group of cells as part of her body, completely in her domain. She gave away Pete's living, breathing child. And Peggy told Pete to primarily, inform him of just how much she rejects him as a romantic suitor. yes, and also it's not really where the characters are, even Peggy. She has moments of sensitivity about her child, and when Pete was first having a kid that was something she had to think about, but it's not like any time he mentions his daughter it's some kind of dig. This show always shows how when you deal with people every day you get used to things--people can have fights and get over them etc. She would have long ago got used to Pete occasionally mentioning his daughter. Plus, it's not like Peggy regrets giving her baby away. It was the right thing to do, and she really did want something else. So it's not like she resents him having a child when she didn't want one at that time. It's actually kind of nice how they start out with both of them feeling somewhat pressured to have kids because that's what people do. Peggy figures out earlier on that she wants something else--or at least wants something else first. Pete also questions it but winds up seeing how much he wants it once he has it (especially after he loses it). So I think both of them even by the end clearly always remember that child they had, but think of him separately than Tammy. Peggy can say she has a 10 year old boy waiting for her at home in the Burger Chef pitch and Pete reacts to it, but when he says he has a five-year-old, that's Tammy and Peggy knows that. Re-watching Maidenform, it's so interesting to me that on the surface Don's more secure with a family to come home to, and he's more often overtly falling apart in later seasons. But he actually does seem like he's in a better place in the later 60s just because he's more honest. His relationships are more honest and he's dealing with people who have gotten angry at him, called him out for what he is, and still like him. Also, another thing people often liked to say is that Pete had a thing for much younger women so he could feel more in control and they would cite people like the Maidenform model as proof. To me it always seemed like no, people just always aged down anybody he was with when they were almost always around his age. Maidenform is an adult working model. She's not a little girl just because she lives with her mother. There's nothing about her that implies any power difference besides that she's the woman. Don's hotel room stuff with Sylvia is kind of an echo of Bobbi--he also goes for her throat at one point a bit like he did in his nightmare. Also this ep's interesting the way it has so many scenes of someone being upset when they see themselves being looked at by others. Peggy has a moment of hesitation when she sees herself through Pete's eyes in the bar, Joan tells Peggy that in order to be taken seriously she has to not look like a little girl, the whole Maidenform ad is about women wanting to be seen by men a certain way, the model complains that she disappoints the men who see her in person, Don freaks out when Bobbi gives him a sense of how he's seen by others (he's not hiding what he does really) and nearly throws up when Sally offers not to talk, connecting her to Bobbi after she's been watching him with adoration. And of course, Duck gets rid of Chauncey so he can't watch him drink. 2 Link to comment
Melancholy June 27, 2016 Share June 27, 2016 20 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Oh, I don't think they did either. It just seems like of everyone Lois is the one that loses her job (though just the job at Don's desk, you're right; she's not fired from the company) while Freddie and Ken just get yelled at. I just meant that there were four men involved in this visit to the set (Ken, Freddy, Don and Jimmy himself) with Jimmy being the one who's really at fault, and Don presumably being out of the office doing something personal, while I can't even quite get what Lois was supposed to do. Don wasn't in the office...how could she have stopped anyone going anywhere? I'd say the same about Ken, too, of course. And while Freddy probably can't be trusted to stop anyone from drinking, I doubt anybody could have stopped Jimmy. It's just sad that Don's solution is to fire his secretary and even she is like "I don't get what I should have done? Yup. I mean, Don doesn't request Lois re-assigned for the Jimmy Barett screw-up but instead for general incompetence and threatening his reputation that day and other days. I don't think Don expected Lois to manage Ken/the Schillings to avoid the disaster- so much as to have a great excuse on why he was out so he didn't look bad when his lack of participation came up. However even in the "Discreet Secretary Standards," Lois was actually doing her job there. Remember when Joan instructed Peggy to not say where Don was when Betty and the kids came in for picture day but just to apologize that she didn't remind him and wait for Don to come in with his own excuse so no one's alibis was in conflict. Hilariously for such a consummate liar at the top of his game then, Don gives up the jig by immediately looking guilty and panicked when Ken said that Lois said he was out instead of going with the flow and being all phoney-aggressive "Yes, I was at the printer! I can't be hand-cuffed to my desk because Ken can't use common sense and keep the Shillings away from the set!". I actually think in Don's defense that he saw that his "Ken should have known not to take the Shillings to the set or warned me if he was really doing his job!" righteous swagger was deflated by how Don wasn't doing his job himself. Yes, but then, he's unfairly punitive to Lois in a sense. Although, I think Don also (rightfully) thought that Lois was stupid and she made these little screw-ups like bringing the wrong documents or announcing people by the wrong name. I also wonder how Don knows that she was gossiping about him behind his back- which she tried doing with Peggy in the first ep of S2. I would imagine that Peggy didn't spill the beans on Lois but thought her recrimination sufficed. But then, if Lois is openly crying in the breakroom about it to the point that Joan admonished her, I would think that Lois's Pinocchio jokes got around. Quote Also, another thing people often liked to say is that Pete had a thing for much younger women so he could feel more in control and they would cite people like the Maidenform model as proof. To me it always seemed like no, people just always aged down anybody he was with when they were almost always around his age. Maidenform is an adult working model. She's not a little girl just because she lives with her mother. There's nothing about her that implies any power difference besides that she's the woman. Well, I do think, with the exception of Trudy and Bonnie and the end of S2!Peggy that he professed his love to, that Pete goes for incredibly vulnerable women. They're not necessarily so much younger in years but there's something in their biography that makes them unbelievably self-deprecating and weak next to him. "You're my king" and all. Peggy, the beleaguered dowdy Brooklyn secretary. The Maidenform model who was an adult working model, but so incredibly insecure and pretty desperate for a job who, despite working in London, was naive enough to think that just because his title had "executive" in it, he was a decision-maker. Gundrun, the au pair terrified of disgrace, termination, and possible deportation. Beth Dawes, the broken baby bird clinically depressed housewife. The other domestic violence victim housewife that he was sleeping with in S6. The drivers' ed naive dewy teenager. I think that's meant to be a point of Pete- especially next to how Trudy really is His Person but Pete is, by turns, captivated and repelled by her innate sunniness and confidence and how she comes in with money and doting parents and an entire lifetime of being popular behind her so she can't really be subjugated. Trudy/Bonnie/end of S2 Peggy are distinctions with a difference in this Type of Pete's 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 28, 2016 Share June 28, 2016 (edited) 18 hours ago, Melancholy said: Well, I do think, with the exception of Trudy and Bonnie and the end of S2!Peggy that he professed his love to, that Pete goes for incredibly vulnerable women. Yes, some of Pete's encounters are definitely with women who seem like they'd never be with him if they weren't in a bad place at that moment. Also I think any woman offering herself to Pete is just going to read as more damaged than a woman offering herself to Don, even though they might be acting out of similar impulses. (In Gudrun's case, of course, she wasn't offering and it was her vulnerable position that gave Pete an opportunity take advantage of her.) A lot of sexual encounters on the show happen because one or both people are reaching out because they're feeling bad inside. Beth Dawes and Diana the waitress who have a string of guys they've picked up to play out their tragic drama over and over--they were the ones in control of the encounters, but were doing it because they were broken inside and in the relationships we see I think both guys are specifically attracted to the brokenness, feeling similarly themselves. I do see times when Pete is going after vulnerability to feel strong. I'm not saying that's not sometimes obviously there. I just feel like that becomes his defining attitude and ignores a) some of the other factors involved (like bottom feeders feeding at the bottom) and b) that Peggy, Trudy and Bonnie are his three most important and longterm relationships and are very different. It's just that age is a different issue and when that's the attraction it's more about mortality, it seems. Roger talking about not being interested in older women in S1, his second marriage seemingly tied to his mortality, Pete's interest in the high school girl. (Megan's younger too, but I saw that as more about Don being attracted to the fresh optimism than her age, myself.) Then there's lots of times where young women are attractive and the age difference is taken as natural--Sal's wife is younger, Don and Roger go out with younger women, Don makes a pass at Stephanie, Betty's younger than Henry, all the guys are after 20-year old new girls Peggy and Jane. Edited June 28, 2016 by sistermagpie 1 Link to comment
Melancholy June 28, 2016 Share June 28, 2016 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, some of Pete's encounters are definitely with women who seem like they'd never be with him if they weren't in a bad place at that moment. Also I think any woman offering herself to Pete is just going to read as more damaged than a woman offering herself to Don, even though they might be acting out of similar impulses. (In Gudrun's case, of course, she wasn't offering and it was her vulnerable position that gave Pete an opportunity take advantage of her.) A lot of sexual encounters on the show happen because one or both people are reaching out because they're feeling bad inside. Beth Dawes and Diana the waitress who have a string of guys they've picked up to play out their tragic drama over and over--they were the ones in control of the encounters, but were doing it because they were broken inside and in the relationships we see I think both guys are specifically attracted to the brokenness, feeling similarly themselves. I agree with this. I think that Don is disposed to pick women for their confidence and appearance of happiness in the early seasons and he's actually upset when they deviate from this confident, happy ideal (Betty's mental illness and mourning over her parents, Bobbie having fully grown children and her drama with her husband, Suzanne introducing her epileptic brother, Megan falling apart, Midge evidently falling apart post-break up). In the later seasons, I think Don changes patterns and actually seems attracted to open pain and dysfunction- his attraction to Sylvia and Diana and Lee Cabot. This mirrors Don's arc. Of course, it's not such a clear cut dichotomy. Don does display attraction to specific types of pain in women in the early season- when he feels a commonality (Rachel's mother also dying in child birth, Suzanne's father also dying young) or this strange attraction when he just GETS why they're actually in the same boat so the world is making more sense to him (Betty indicating that she took him back because she's pregnant with Gene, Faye also living a double life between the fake wedding ring and focus groups and the mafia past). Don also finds some type of specialness and togetherness in Sylvia/Lee/even Diana a little that makes him think that feeling better is just around the corner for them...and thus, could be for him. Aside from mortality, I think men pursue younger women for cachet and prestige. They're rich and powerful enough that beautiful young women will want to date them, even if they're older. I think that's a big thing with Roger. In addition to his morality issues, it's important to him that he's powerful enough to take the Aluminum Sliding twins away from the younger ranked guys and get these young girls to sleep with him. It's important to him that he's the guy that Lotus thinks she needs to sleep with to make it instead of Danny Seigel. It was part of his relationship with Joan and Jane too. Ditto for the coat check girls where it's "too easy" because she's never had room service. I think Roger wants to think that younger women are sleeping him because he's handsome and charming (which is undoubtedly true)- but he's also intrigued by the power aspect that they'll go older and more white-haired than their set because he's rich and has favors to impart and that's all a credit to his importance and why he's above sleeping with women actually in his peer group. I don't feel like Pete and Don are in this exact frame of mind- except for sometimes which I'll get to. Pete actually *is* pretty young and twentysomethings are in his peer group in the early seasons and just under it in the later seasons. Don is 34 at the start of the series- and twentysomethings don't feel that far off. That changes later on because 40 is a benchmark of middle-age but Don's still outrageously handsome in a way that transcends age (as opposed to Roger who's a handsome older man) through the end. So, they're not thinking like Roger where there's just this casual conversation that it's "too easy" to get a coat check girl just because you can afford room service. However, I do think that Don/Pete can get into this frame of mind. Specifically, I think Don was regarding Stephanie in The Good News as a confidence-upping notch on his bedpost, dwelling on specifically her youth and beauty. He was thinking that landing someone that young would be a feather in his cap. As opposed to Megan, where I agree that Don was attracted to her optimism and potential as a protege which are characteristics of youth but have their own intrinsic worth beyond limited years. Pete wasn't that much older than the Maidenform model in years- but he was thrilled at himself for bagging her because it was a status-marker that he was the one with "executive" in his job title enough to make a model want to sleep with him. It's a little similar with Gundrun- Pete was into the fact that he had the knowledge and power to make a woman sleep with him. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie June 29, 2016 Share June 29, 2016 7 hours ago, Melancholy said: I think Don changes patterns and actually seems attracted to open pain and dysfunction- his attraction to Sylvia and Diana and Lee Cabot. Yeah, I do think this is a real change in the way Don progresses. It goes along with the way I sometimes feel watching him in these early eps. On the surface his life is more secure and stable, but it feels more lonely than later eps where he's more lost because those early years seem so repressed. It's not that he's never aware of his pain--he shares it with Rachel, for instance. But there's something weirdly healthy about Don being attracted to people who are a mess. Not forever, but at least he's dealing with that part of himself. It's sadder, almost, when he looks like everything's great but inside he can't really feel a part of it. I agree it's not the same place as Pete is in. They go through some similar things with their divorces and even losing their position at work and having to fight their way back up, but they're very different characters and get different things out of it. Don, I think, is uncovering a lot of things about his past and his feelings in those later seasons. And of course people have always seen his mistresses as being reflections of him, with each one saying something different. In a way Diana makes sense as the culmination of all of that since she's a woman who feels like she failed as a mother, abandoned her child, disappears. That almost sounds like Don's greatest fears about himself. 8 hours ago, Melancholy said: Pete wasn't that much older than the Maidenform model in years- but he was thrilled at himself for bagging her because it was a status-marker that he was the one with "executive" in his job title enough to make a model want to sleep with him. Yeah, this is what really seems in keeping with Pete, especially in those early years when he's trying to be a sort of alpha and is very easily threatened. The encounter itself is the thing that makes him feel good. Not just because of the sex, but sex that seems to validate him as The Man--a capable, virile figure of power and authority etc. That's not something Don gets from sex. At least not usually. 8 hours ago, Melancholy said: Don is 34 at the start of the series- and twentysomethings don't feel that far off. That changes later on because 40 is a benchmark of middle-age but Don's still outrageously handsome in a way that transcends age (as opposed to Roger who's a handsome older man) through the end. Right--and it's also something that's casually mentioned all over the place, that women stop being attractive when they're older, so of course that's what any man wants. Sure it can go to far and the guy can look silly, as Don says about Roger and Jane. But people would probably be more surprised at Don being with Bobbi Barrett than Bethany Van Nuys. Megan isn't all that much younger than Betty--she's just firmly on the other side of the generational line. It just occurs to me that it's a little like that speech Roger makes to Don about drinking, how his generation (meaning himself) drinks for better reasons than Don's. Roger pursuit or enjoyment of women is different than Don's too. (Roger also had a loving mother...) 1 Link to comment
txhorns79 June 29, 2016 Share June 29, 2016 Quote Megan isn't all that much younger than Betty--she's just firmly on the other side of the generational line. I think Megan is eight or nine years younger than Betty. Quote But people would probably be more surprised at Don being with Bobbi Barrett than Bethany Van Nuys. I remember Betty specifically commenting that Bobbi was "so old" when expressing surprise over that relationship. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 3, 2016 Share July 3, 2016 Watching the next few eps, particularly where Betty discovers Don's affair with Bobbie. When she confronts him I remembered the scene in S6 where the Campbells have a similar confrontation and I was struck by how in two scenes that are superficially similar--both have the man caught having an affair and the woman confronting him for humiliating her, the man refusing to admit to what he's done and the woman throwing him out--yet you can really see how there is some hope for the Campbells in ways there isn't for the Drapers. Not that it was a sure thing that the Campbells would work it out, obviously, but there's at least a communication going on between the characters--even if Pete won't admit it--that's just not happening with Don. He's just so adamant in his lying, and then at work he continues to frame the whole thing as Betty being silly and manage to sound believable about it--it's no surprise when he says to Roger that he doesn't actually feel bad. It made me think of Betty working through this in S6 by sleeping with Don at camp and saying to him about Megan, "That poor girl. She doesn't know that loving you is the worst way to get to you." Because that's the thing, that Don's just really damaged in his ability to deal with this that Betty doesn't have a chance. I can't believe I forgot to listen to Don and Roger's conversation in the bar after dropping off Freddy with an eye to how Roger was hearing it as encouragement to leave Mona for Jane. I love how we see basically nothing of that relationship beyond Roger finally getting her address out of her in exchange for working things out with Joan (not that he actually says anything to Joan or does anything at all--he puts Jane in the same place Don's in in S7) until Mona announces he's leaving her. And she tells him he can give his excuses to Margaret--it's really Margaret and not Mona or Jane or Marie--who's set up as the character most shaped by Roger's behavior, just as Sally is being shaped by Don. In The Inheritance Betty tells Don that she's been dreaming of a suitcase and connects this to the news that her father has had a stroke. That's not only a big foreshadowing of The Suitcase, the episode about Anna's death, but it's also got an echo in Don's Hawaiian hotel ad that reads as suicide. Also I'd forgotten Betty's sister-in-law is Judy, just as Pete's is (and in his case there's the added joke that it rhymes with Trudy). Pete does enjoy a well-timed bit of truth when somebody walks into it, like his mother does here. One of my favorite Pete/Bud scenes is the one where Pete "remembers Rope." Also more parallels with Gene and his stroke-related confusion which will later be echoed in Dot. This ep has Pete being both pressured into and out of adoption while we don't yet know that his own child was given up for adoption and Harry Crane gets ready to welcome a biological child. The adoption theme is also interesting given Betty's warm relationship with her former nanny, Viola, who also took care of someone else's children. Pete's "thank you" to Peggy giving him cake is a pretty clear moment showing his feelings for her (drinking will not help him express it). In Milk & Honey Route some thought Pete was lying when he said Trudy was the only person he ever loved, but given everything going on in his life I do think his focus on Peggy is as much wanting to escape all the people that feel like enemies as it is romantic love for Peggy. Speaking of old flames, Joan's reactions to Roger are great, starting from Jane's ostentatiously expensive gift for Harry. I like Jane even when she's being a big cliche. Harry also has a moment with the secretary he slept with. Oh, Don also learns Alison's name here (the secretary he's going to sleep with) and Harry's not yet been to California, the place that will start bringing out the worst in him. When asked if he's going to just leave his family to go there he doesn't answer. Don also here robs Kinsey of his planned trip to California in order to get away from personal problems, which he will do again to Stan in S6! Bert's brief appearance to wish Harry a happy birthday at his baby shower is awesome. Love Betty and Helen's conversation. It's fitting that she has to cut Glen off before that happens. Helen's line about how things with her husband there weren't that different from being a single mom kind of echoes Betty's later "you not being here is part of normal" later on. In The Jet Set--I forgot The Crash wasn't the first or even the second time Don toppled onto a floor. (I think he does something similar when the proto-hippies knock him out.) Another one of Ken's great random announcements: Kurt's a homo. Oh, and the other Ken thing. He's shown saying that he thinks the competition over the blood drive is stupid because "what do you win?" and will later refuse to compete with Pete for Head of Accounts...and then he ends the show giving Joan her idea for a company because he's turning the industrial film assignment into a competition with another department. 1 Link to comment
qtpye July 5, 2016 Share July 5, 2016 On 7/2/2016 at 9:32 PM, sistermagpie said: Watching the next few eps, particularly where Betty discovers Don's affair with Bobbie. When she confronts him I remembered the scene in S6 where the Campbells have a similar confrontation and I was struck by how in two scenes that are superficially similar--both have the man caught having an affair and the woman confronting him for humiliating her, the man refusing to admit to what he's done and the woman throwing him out--yet you can really see how there is some hope for the Campbells in ways there isn't for the Drapers. I think Bettie's humiliation was particularly brutal, because Bobbie's husband had been giving her special attention. Not that Betty was thinking of having an affair, but this famous comedian flirting with and talking her up was flattering, particularly because she felt like an ignored housewife with Don. It builds up her ego and then she is punched in the face with affair. Also, since Betty is a superficial woman, she could not write off the affair with "men are just dogs" excuse of her era. Since Bobbie was not young or conventionally gorgeous, Betty knew that there had to be something deeper then lust. 1 Link to comment
Melancholy July 5, 2016 Share July 5, 2016 (edited) On July 2, 2016 at 9:32 PM, sistermagpie said: Watching the next few eps, particularly where Betty discovers Don's affair with Bobbie. When she confronts him I remembered the scene in S6 where the Campbells have a similar confrontation and I was struck by how in two scenes that are superficially similar--both have the man caught having an affair and the woman confronting him for humiliating her, the man refusing to admit to what he's done and the woman throwing him out--yet you can really see how there is some hope for the Campbells in ways there isn't for the Drapers. Not that it was a sure thing that the Campbells would work it out, obviously, but there's at least a communication going on between the characters--even if Pete won't admit it--that's just not happening with Don. He's just so adamant in his lying, and then at work he continues to frame the whole thing as Betty being silly and manage to sound believable about it--it's no surprise when he says to Roger that he doesn't actually feel bad. It made me think of Betty working through this in S6 by sleeping with Don at camp and saying to him about Megan, "That poor girl. She doesn't know that loving you is the worst way to get to you." Because that's the thing, that Don's just really damaged in his ability to deal with this that Betty doesn't have a chance. I can't believe I forgot to listen to Don and Roger's conversation in the bar after dropping off Freddy with an eye to how Roger was hearing it as encouragement to leave Mona for Jane. I love how we see basically nothing of that relationship beyond Roger finally getting her address out of her in exchange for working things out with Joan (not that he actually says anything to Joan or does anything at all--he puts Jane in the same place Don's in in S7) until Mona announces he's leaving her. And she tells him he can give his excuses to Margaret--it's really Margaret and not Mona or Jane or Marie--who's set up as the character most shaped by Roger's behavior, just as Sally is being shaped by Don. Another commonality between Don/Betty and Pete/Trudy is that both wives knew about their husbands' unfaithfulness before and they both thought that they sent messages granting clemency for the past but holding the husband to some standard for the future and they were particularly enraged that the husbands didn't take the favor with grace but instead, took a mile where they were given an inch. IMO, Betty thought that she warned Don that she knew about his infidelity and that she wouldn't tolerate it again through the "How could someone do that?" conversation and then, ultimately, through Betty's shrink and the expectation that the shrink would relay all sessions to Don. I thought Betty signaled in her "Carlton better be happy and showering Francine with love after what he put her through!" fight-attempt that she holds Don to a similar standard where Don actually be better PARTICULARLY grateful that Betty, not only didn't divorce him for infidelity as she Francine did, but Betty even spared Don the difficulty of a face-to-face confrontation. Trudy out-and-out says that she knew Pete was unfaithful and Pete was supposed to respect Trudy's dignity in "granting permission" and take that gift of a sex-apartment to be discreet and confine his infidelities to the city. At the time, I think the lack of foreshadowing for Don/Jane is played as particularly unsettling for Don. It's played as entirely probable that Roger knew about Don's marital problems i.e. living arrangements because of pillow-talk with Jane. Don and Roger were friends but it's not entirely clear that Roger would figure out that Don was living out of a hotel if he wasn't having intimate conversations with Don's secretary who clearly already picked up on it. It's part of "I want her off my desk." Fans (off the show) and Roger (in show) say that Don/Megan was the same as Roger/Jane and thus, Don can't judge at all. However, I disagree. First, I think there's material differences in the relationships themselves that make Don come off as more sympathetic than Roger and Jane as more sympathetic than Megan. However just in terms of how it affected Don v. Roger- Roger wasn't blamed for breaking up a twenty something year old marriage. There's no probable cause that Don was gossiping about intimate aspects of Roger's life. Don didn't push to sell the agency to cover his increase in matrimonial overhead in a way that affected Roger. Quote Don also here robs Kinsey of his planned trip to California in order to get away from personal problems, which he will do again to Stan in S6! LOL. Although, this is part of why I loved Kinsey so much and like, Stan is so boring and thinly drawn for a long-term creative. There's a parallelism where Don used the trip promised to Kinsey to run from his personal problems...but then, Kinsey was *also* planning on using that trip to run from his own problems i.e. the commitments that he made to seem like a great white ally to the civil rights movement. It's really clever writing. And I love Kinsey so much when he's whitesplaining on the Freedom Riding Buss but he's still ahead of most of the characters because he's *on* said Freedom Riding Bus contributing to the cause. There's no similar deftness and interesting moral ambiguity with the Stan issue. It's interesting from a Don POV as his arc comes to a head in In Care Of. However, Stan is the heavy-handed lecturer, where Stan is coasting on how his mere professional disappointment that he was never entitled to in the first place can become HOW HE WAS MORALLY WRONGED because Don's own life apart from Stan is a mess. Quote Oh, and the other Ken thing. He's shown saying that he thinks the competition over the blood drive is stupid because "what do you win?" and will later refuse to compete with Pete for Head of Accounts...and then he ends the show giving Joan her idea for a company because he's turning the industrial film assignment into a competition with another department. IMO, Ken is full of it. I think he was absolutely competing with Pete in S3. The brash riding of the John Deere mower was a competitive move. All of the guys could tell that Ken was exciting about possibly landing Patio which could lead to Pepsi because it was a way to pull ahead of Pete. Pete was entirely correct that no one was going to hold hands and skip. I just think that Ken is keenly aware of how to compete in a way that benefits himself and not just in the narrow "who won what macho pissing contest" but who built the best foundation for a good life, which *could* include more money and prestige at work but only relative to effort and personal fulfillment. The blood drive doesn't benefit Ken other than in the narrow "WHO WINS!" that people can get caught up in* so he's less interested. *Arguably like Don who comes up with the clever "Find out who wants to be a copywriter for the day. Dollar a head" strategy for Creative to win the drive. However, I go back and forth if Don's unusual interest in such a bit of prosaic office rigmarole was because it "was for mankind" as he said and this actually is a bit of office rigmarole that can actually help people so Don sees the value unlike the party for the British PPL (after Don found out he wasn't getting promoted) or Cutler pretentiously reciting Captain, My Captain for Bert or yet another partner meeting discussing nothing of interest or because Don can historically get his head turned by pissing contests enough to "cheat at a charity". Maybe it's some of both. Edited July 5, 2016 by Melancholy Link to comment
sistermagpie July 7, 2016 Share July 7, 2016 On 7/5/2016 at 2:10 PM, qtpye said: I think Bettie's humiliation was particularly brutal, because Bobbie's husband had been giving her special attention. Not that Betty was thinking of having an affair, but this famous comedian flirting with and talking her up was flattering, particularly because she felt like an ignored housewife with Don. Yeah, and it's when she's feeling like she's actually useful to his work. It's a bit like Coke all over again. And Heineken. Just another joke she wasn't in on. On 7/5/2016 at 3:27 PM, Melancholy said: Another commonality between Don/Betty and Pete/Trudy is that both wives knew about their husbands' unfaithfulness before and they both thought that they sent messages granting clemency for the past but holding the husband to some standard for the future and they were particularly enraged that the husbands didn't take the favor with grace but instead, took a mile where they were given an inch. Yes--and that also shows how that line of thinking was never going to work anyway. Neither man asked for permission to cheat the first time, so why wouldn't they take a mile? It lays a good foundation for the later, more open communication of the 70s. Like Pete saying to his brother that his wife knows he's cheating--he's not telling him to imagine it, he's telling him she knows. On 7/5/2016 at 3:27 PM, Melancholy said: However, Stan is the heavy-handed lecturer, where Stan is coasting on how his mere professional disappointment that he was never entitled to in the first place can become HOW HE WAS MORALLY WRONGED because Don's own life apart from Stan is a mess. I love that whole story going on with Kinsey where he doesn't really want to go on the Freedom Ride and really does want to go to California, especially with Harry eventually saying he got dumped on the trip. Stan's plans to go to CA kind of come out of nowhere. He's never that ambitious. It wouldn't surprise me if he was just in love with Peggy and thinking it was better to get away. With Kinsey it's part of his whole character and insecurity. He's always set up as not quite fitting in with whoever he's with, and also never completely wanting to fit in. I love that they later, iirc, say he went to Princeton, but on scholarship. On 7/5/2016 at 3:27 PM, Melancholy said: IMO, Ken is full of it. I think he was absolutely competing with Pete in S3. He has that line to I think Kinsey when Kinsey says his getting published is like he didn't realize Ken was competition and Ken says "I won." He also says, of the blood drive, that if it was a competition for athletic skill Accounts would get it. There's a whole casual winner thing going on with Ken where it often seems like he's blase (or claims to be) about winning because he's already won or he's decided the competition doesn't matter. It's just really fun seeing how much that comes up knowing how much it's going to play into things. Even his winning Head of Accounts doesn't get him pulled into SCDP and the cutthroat world of Chevy practically destroys him. By the end of the show he's seeing competition where it doesn't even seem to really be there. Watching Mountain King and Meditations again, I hadn't realized just how much of a replay Pete has with his father in law in S6. He reacts the same way both times--Tom does something with the business to control or punish Pete and Pete immediately pulls the trigger. It makes sense given Pete's history with his own family that he reacts so immediately to that kind of thing, even with a later Pete who's not as sensitive and insecure as he is in S2. The loyalty theme is fun to watch there too. Pete reacts negatively to Harry's advice of never being loyal and you can see him decide to choose a side with Don, who's made him feel good about himself (even if he was just covering for flaking out). He *doesn't* declare any such loyalty to Trudy, agreeing that if he loved her he'd want to be with her but then not saying he'll be with her. He also flat-out says he wants to be in NY and she wants to be with her parents--this is another thing set up really well for the ending of the two of them going off to someplace new with Tammy. There's also that really interesting constellation of women and babies--Peggy confesses about hers to Pete and it makes her freer. It also frees Pete of his fantasies about Peggy. Betty winds up deciding to prologue her marriage because of the pregnancy and so Don, also, holds onto the idea that she and the family will make him whole. I originally sort of eye-rolled Don's letter claiming that if they split up Betty wouldn't be alone for long but he'd be alone forever thinking of all the women constantly throwing themselves at Don. But I think he believes what he's saying there in the moment. He's totally rejecting what Anna said to him in the Tarot reading--and he'll seem to finally understand it in Person to Person. I always like, too, how while Peggy does sometimes still make bad decisions about her love life (like pretending to be a virgin with that guy in S4) the place that she comes about her pregnancy here--being honest with herself and others about it, owning her choices and not being ashamed--is something she seems to really hold onto throughout the show. You can often tell on the show when someone has really learned something so deeply that it's actually become part of them and this feels like the first time it really happens. Starting Season 3, I'd forgotten that Don sleeps with the stewardess on his birthday. That date will come up again when he marries Megan and says he doesn't like birthday parties. I like that they made that a little sensitive spot for him, that for whatever reason he's always aware of his real birthday passing. It made the encounter with the stewardess sadder for me this time around, especially since this time I connected it more clearly to the flashback at the top of the episode. Or maybe it's not a flashback...more like Don imagining his birth as Betty is trying to make everything "perfect" for her baby. I also love that not only does Don travel under a false name because of his luggage, but that hilarious detail that Betty's brother puts his name on things he's borrowed from other people. Because of course at first you think Don's borrowed *his* luggage, but no, it's the other way around. Bill's going to love label-makers in the 70s. It occurs to me, too, that there was always the joke about how Gene never talked but this is the baby that Don will use as an example of potential, telling Sally they don't know who he's going to be yet. It's funny that he stays a total blank slate. I also like watching Pete make a smart decision when he comes into Don's office after finding out about the Head of Accounts position. He seems ready to complain to Don and who knows, maybe try to call in a favor after telling him about Duck's plans, but seeing Roger there makes him realize it's better to follow Trudy's advice. He's learning he needs to stop being so entitled and Peggy's learning to stand up for herself. (Peggy will sometimes go a little overboard with that but you can see why she'd have no instinct for it.) Finally, I laughed at everyone scurrying out of the hotel with that fire alarm. I was in a hotel once where the alarm went off and I'm pretty sure nobody went out any windows. I was on the first floor and just stumbled into the lobby with everyone else. Don & Co. act like they're in the Towering Inferno as soon as they hear the bells. Link to comment
Melancholy July 7, 2016 Share July 7, 2016 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I love that whole story going on with Kinsey where he doesn't really want to go on the Freedom Ride and really does want to go to California, especially with Harry eventually saying he got dumped on the trip. Stan's plans to go to CA kind of come out of nowhere. He's never that ambitious. It wouldn't surprise me if he was just in love with Peggy and thinking it was better to get away. With Kinsey it's part of his whole character and insecurity. He's always set up as not quite fitting in with whoever he's with, and also never completely wanting to fit in. I love that they later, iirc, say he went to Princeton, but on scholarship. I think Stan was just drawn to California as a youthful, beautiful place at the forefront of the hippie movement. But Stan is so underwritten that I don't even know that he's not ambitious. Peggy says that in her Person to Person ugly tantrum- but I don't take Peggy's various ugly tantrums as completely accurate. Stan became the Art Director at an ad agency, on the rise. I would think even an ambitious artist would be pretty satisfied with that turn of events. He knows competition enough to warn Peggy off of hiring Ginsberg. His speed personality is VERY competitive what with the racing Cutler and the "I've written a million tags!" one-upping, whatever that means. There's a bunch of points where he transparently sucks up to Don. But yeah, maybe he really wanted to be a homesteader, making a name for himself with CA with his art. However, I don't even know if I'd characterize that as ambition so much as romantic idealism. Quote I originally sort of eye-rolled Don's letter claiming that if they split up Betty wouldn't be alone for long but he'd be alone forever thinking of all the women constantly throwing themselves at Don. But I think he believes what he's saying there in the moment. He's totally rejecting what Anna said to him in the Tarot reading--and he'll seem to finally understand it in Person to Person. I had the same evolving reaction. I think his comment acquires poignancy on rewatch, having seen the entire series like how Don did end up alone and Betty ended up with Henry and stuff like "I'm surprised that you ever loved me." I think, on some level, Don gets that he's not suited to build a cohesive upper-middle class family and it was some lucky, mysterious break that he landed Betty who could provide that. I'm also so committed to my "Megan was a gold-digger who only ended up with his for money/opportunity" opinions that I think there's a significance that when Don earned half a million bucks in that very episode, it fundamentally altered his romantic role. There's this new overwhelming financial motive for a woman to be with him that could drown everything else out. He lost that security of having a partner who married him before he got rich when he lost Betty. I don't think Don is rejecting the Tarot reading. I think Don was genuine- but I do think that he admitted to sleeping with Bobbie and admitted that he's the partner who'd end up alone and all of this unflattering stuff because he thought saying it would win Betty back. He wasn't resigning himself to aloneness. He was trying targetted honesty to get Betty back. Quote Finally, I laughed at everyone scurrying out of the hotel with that fire alarm. I was in a hotel once where the alarm went off and I'm pretty sure nobody went out any windows. I was on the first floor and just stumbled into the lobby with everyone else. Don & Co. act like they're in the Towering Inferno as soon as they hear the bells. I forget if everyone was scurrying out. I though Don's OTT reaction to get himself, Shelly, It's Been Swelly (LOVE THAT!), and Sal out really struck a nerve with his survivor's guilt that constantly comes up in his life from his mom to his dad to the real Don Draper. It was particularly pivotal with Don Draper 1.0 since Dick remembers dropping a lighter and killing Don Draper 1.0 in an explosion and taking the identity from the burned up charred body. IMO, Don 2.0 was desperate to avoid any part of that from happening again so he's very anxious about even fire drills. Link to comment
sistermagpie July 7, 2016 Share July 7, 2016 45 minutes ago, Melancholy said: I don't even know if I'd characterize that as ambition so much as romantic idealism. That's a great way of putting it. Not that we're privvy to everything that led up to his decision, but his whole presentation of it sounds just like that. And you're right, I was mostly getting the idea of Stan not being ambitious from that last episode when he's actually being pretty practical, telling Peggy she'd be miserable writing scripts for industrials. There's times where he does express the desire for something more--and his pride over the thing he worked on before coming to SCDP was real, even if it maybe also made him a bit insecure. He doesn't have the same in-your-face quality that Peggy does, but I don't think she could ever be with somebody who wasn't somewhat ambitious. All the guys she was significantly involved with were that, and somebody who wasn't wouldn't really be able to support her hours, I'd think. 47 minutes ago, Melancholy said: I don't think Don is rejecting the Tarot reading I probably shouldn't have used the word rejecting because I don't think he was doing it on purpose. It was more something that we as the audience can see. Don might have forgotten all about the reading by then. After all, how many of us would really take our friend's Tarot reading that seriously? Don't not exactly the new age type. And even if he did seriously consider the idea when Anna said it, I think he might just think it couldn't apply to him the way she meant it. Being alone is so much part of who he is he wouldn't even think about it. That's why it's a big moment when he even thinks it could be otherwise at the end of the series, I think. So yeah, I don't think he's intentionally being deceptive to Betty. He's making a pitch, of course, but pitches don't have to be based on lies. (Same with Pete's pitch to Trudy in Milk & Honey route--both guys have to dig down to get truth with those pitches.) Many of Don's pitches are I think something he believes on some level--even the first version of the Hershey's pitch, imo, wasn't a lie. He was just lying about the details of his background--pretending to be somebody who wasn't unable to connect with people. Pretending to be what he thought of as acceptable and normal. But I think he believes there is some little boy out there who had that Hershey experience--maybe Bobby, for instance. 51 minutes ago, Melancholy said: There's this new overwhelming financial motive for a woman to be with him that could drown everything else out. He lost that security of having a partner who married him before he got rich when he lost Betty. Yes, he's got things that make him insecure about Betty too (she's from a good family and educated etc.) but he still only had himself to offer back then. Maybe he wasn't telling her he grew up in a whorehouse but he wasn't pretending to be somebody like her either. He would of course already have been handsome, but not Don Draper as Megan met him, creative director with his name on the door. Betty wasn't his secretary--and he had to work for her a lot more than he did for Megan. 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: It was particularly pivotal with Don Draper 1.0 since Dick remembers dropping a lighter and killing Don Draper 1.0 in an explosion and taking the identity from the burned up charred body. IMO, Don 2.0 was desperate to avoid any part of that from happening again so he's very anxious about even fire drills. I had never thought of that! That would make sense. Don may have been the only person actually climbing onto the fire escape--I can't remember what Sal does, but even if he did that he'd be following Don. It makes the whole thing even more comically tragic to think of Sal being like, "WTF, Don is AT MY WINDOW on the FIRE ESCAPE? Why is he doing this to me?" Link to comment
drspaceman0 July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 This is America. Pick a job, and then become the person that does it. This is the only sentence that describes the whole series. Prove me wrong. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 Watching Love Among the Ruins I'm really impressed by how the show does two stories about siblings dealing with an aging, mentally compromised parent that don't seem repetitive at all, at least to me. When Dot Campbell was living with Pete in S6 I did remember the Gene story of course but even re-watching it they're two entirely different stories with totally different dynamics going on with all the characters. Neither story is about dealing with a parent in that situation in an educational way, the way it might have been on another show. The ill parent is more like having a baby or getting married, just something that happens in the course of life rather than a special situation. I don't completely buy Betty's accusations about William, btw. There's no doubt some truth there, but I don't know that he's that terrible--and later, of course, Betty will want him to raise her own kids. Interesting that you almost might have expected the Campbell family to have the siblings accusing each other of greed (even with no money), but Pete and Bud don't have that issue. That said, I did find myself oddly thinking about Don getting Megan the Buster Shoe add. The two situations are different in so many ways, but just as Don gets her the shoe ad and then walks away seemingly ready to start cheating again, Don opens his home to Gene because Betty wants it and then immediately spots Suzanne. I don't know what I make of that parallel or if it is even supposed to be one--Don was already cheating on Betty, of course, though he didn't have a mistress. But there does seem something significant in Don making a genuine sacrifice about his own life and it seeming to spark something like this in him. Also it was really cool the way that ep had a theme, it seemed, of people being unstuck in time (which fits with that Maypole representing spring with the ribbons all tangled up etc.). In an earlier ep Gene mistook Betty for his wife (a moment that many wanted to read as implying some sort of sexual abuse), he ends this ep getting rid of all the liquor thinking it's the 1920s. Peggy points out that Ann Margaret's appeal lies in part in her the ability to be 25 and act 14. The whole Madison Square Garden/Penn station campaign is about erasing the past vs. respecting it. Pete brings a Dykman ancestor into a meeting, offering him an opinion on the present. Don gives the clients the courage to embrace the new without apology. Don's vision of the future is then dismissed by Lane's bosses who are so fixated on the present they're totally short-sighted about the future. William doesn't want to live with his father because it will reduce him to child status--I think he may also have to sleep in a bunk bed at the Drapers. Margaret objects to Roger's wife being young enough to be her sister. We see a shot of the wedding invitation telling us the wedding will take place, to the modern viewer, the day after JFK is assassinated. Don and Betty give slightly different answers about how long they've been married. Roger also has some ugly Greek ruin in his office. (The jardinier Betty complainrf esd no longer where it used to be makes sn appearance--why would anyone want to steal that?!) William accuses Betty of revising the past, forgetting how she fought with her father. Joan kind of stands out as talking about her future, with Greg telling her how things will be after he's made resident. Dot Campbell will similarly be unstuck in time in her dementia (and Pete will use that to his advantage when he keeps her inside by claiming it's St. Patrick's Day). It seems like that's both a classic symptom of dementia and, maybe more importantly, just a foundation idea of the whole show. All the characters are acted on by the past. The older characters just do it more literally. When I saw the opening with Ann-Margaret I anticipated that scene with Sal dancing for his wife but it's not in this episode. I love that they got more than one ep out of this where they use that sequence to illustrate different things. Also I love that little exchange in the elevator when Roger, feeling sorry for himself, asks Peggy what her father would have to do for her to not want him at her wedding. She says he passed away and Roger says "There you go...you'd do anything!" when Peggy said no such thing. It's not that Peggy wouldn't have wanted her father at her wedding as far as we know. It's just funny how Roger takes her simple statement of fact as to why this question doesn't apply to her and turns it into something more maudlin and self-serving. It's interesting watching him spin with all the many consequences to his decision to blow up his life. Link to comment
Melancholy July 12, 2016 Share July 12, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Watching Love Among the Ruins I'm really impressed by how the show does two stories about siblings dealing with an aging, mentally compromised parent that don't seem repetitive at all, at least to me. When Dot Campbell was living with Pete in S6 I did remember the Gene story of course but even re-watching it they're two entirely different stories with totally different dynamics going on with all the characters. Neither story is about dealing with a parent in that situation in an educational way, the way it might have been on another show. The ill parent is more like having a baby or getting married, just something that happens in the course of life rather than a special situation. I don't completely buy Betty's accusations about William, btw. There's no doubt some truth there, but I don't know that he's that terrible--and later, of course, Betty will want him to raise her own kids. Interesting that you almost might have expected the Campbell family to have the siblings accusing each other of greed (even with no money), but Pete and Bud don't have that issue. The lack of repetitive-stories is one of the reasons why Mad Men is such a favorite show for me and definitely my favorite of the Breaking Bad/The Wire/The Sopranos/Mad Men quarternary of prestige dramas. Like, I love The Sopranos and it's second place for me but the "Old person has a health issue" stories and "Tony has a crazy, needy, brunette mistress who acts embarrassingly and who he'll brutalize" did feel repetitive to me. Mad Men did not, both in those stories or in the oft-criticism that Don's mistresses were repetitive when I think they were all interesting women with their own vivid personalities and ways of dealing with Don. I love Betty- but yeah, I don't think she was fair about William. She had a stronger case when William was talking about putting him in a nursing home. OK- that's a cause to fight. However, I think actually the best solution was for Gene to stay in his own home and have William and Judy move in to take care of him. They uprooted Gene out of his own home for Betty's vanity above all else. And my impression was that the Hofstadt home was bigger than the Draper home. Uprooting Gene and putting him in the attic made him feel cramped and poorly attended to- and it would have become even more so if Gene survived through the birth of Gene Jr. It sure didn't seem like Betty was using this as a chance to really nurse Gene or spend a lot of quality time with him. I mean, I don't exactly feel bad for Gene. I concur with Don that he's a son of bitch. If Betty's frosty and ill-connected with him after he AT BEST condoned Ruth's abuse of Betty as a child and then, only sought to disapprove of Betty's choices as an adult in the most patronizing, unhelpful way possible, Betty has a right to be cold and only come to him from a place of duty/defensiveness of her status. But still...he probably would have been better off staying in his home for Judy to nurse him with some due respect to how Sally probably brightened his final days. It's interesting about the Campbells because yeah, you'd think there'd be more fighting about money. Pete's like...strangely zen about how he was expecting that he wouldn't be a part of his dad's will, even when Bud was just telling him for the first time that the dad was broke. I guess Pete had just accepted it for awhile but he knew that the bigger inheritance probably belonged to Dot down the road? But even then, there's *some* money left over for Dot to keep her in the expensive, high class manner to which she's accustomed by S2. That's enough to fight over. I kind of think that Bud really baited such a fight when he finked to his mother that Pete/Trudy are considering adoption. I think that Pete just KNEW that his parents hated him and gave up the ghost of getting anywhere near what Bud seemed to earned. It also seems like Bud took on more duties/social arrangement with with his parents too because he was rewarded with love and favors and appreciation whenever he did so, unlike Pete- and I think Pete found that silver lining. It's also possible that Bud's wife was more into helping the parents because she married the favorite son- while Trudy was so done with the elder Campbells by S3 (despite her excitement to marry into that family) that she found no point in Pete even informing his mother of an promotion. Meanwhile with Betty, I think she was on a crusade for Hofstadt property for emotional reasons more than a desire for the stuff itself. I think she wants to make William feel guilty and slimy because he's having cash-flow problems and wants a little help from his family in not completely inappropriate ways (to move into the senile's father's house, some ugly antique) to direct her hurt feelings in her bad marriage with Don. Part of it is just Betty taking out her pain on others (which she does a bunch) but I also think that Betty would like to reassure herself of the moral correctness of taking back Don by raising the ability to provide for a family on an upper-middle class scale into the highest of virtues. It's the guys who can't do that who are the REAL assholes. Also, Betty's parents, or certainly Gene, didn't just uniformly openly dislike her like Pete's parents. Gene slobbered all over her with worshipful love ("It's an angel!" "My daughter's a princess!") out of one side of her mouth and then, fought with her all the way and bashed her choices and personalty and played a divisive role ("You don't want to hear about it, Scarlett O'hara"; "You can really do something. Don't let your mother tell you otherwise") out of the other side of his mouth. So, Betty was left betwixt and betweened between insecurity and entitlement, looking for proof that she was the golden child that she appeared to be in Gene's most complimentary moments. By the by, I think Megan has similar (although again, not identical) issues with her parents where she's betwixt and betweened between being the spoiled favorite and the disapproved of daughter who regularly fights with her mother certainly. As typical, Megan doesn't come off as sympathetic as Betty does in this dynamic. However badly she may have done it, Betty was more working to earn this elusive total approval while Megan was more just demanding it. And Betty's parents criticisms (you're a prostitute for being a model in your twenties, you suck for marrying and having three children with a guy because he didn't come from a good family) feel cruel while Megan's parents seemed like they had a point and they were trying to make her happier (don't throw an epic tantrum because you're not a movie star because few people become that, whether Emile meant "It's bad for your soul that you traded away a real marriage and your youth for Don's fortune" or the far nicer way that he put it emphasizing Megan's need to have her actual twentysomething years to pursue her passion with its attendant freedom and joys but risks and challenges.) Quote That said, I did find myself oddly thinking about Don getting Megan the Buster Shoe add. The two situations are different in so many ways, but just as Don gets her the shoe ad and then walks away seemingly ready to start cheating again, Don opens his home to Gene because Betty wants it and then immediately spots Suzanne. I don't know what I make of that parallel or if it is even supposed to be one--Don was already cheating on Betty, of course, though he didn't have a mistress. But there does seem something significant in Don making a genuine sacrifice about his own life and it seeming to spark something like this in him. I sort of think that Don didn't think of it as cheating in S3. I think he was on a streak that he wasn't going to cheat in town, in his daily life but just take occasional liberties on business trips (which is a manner of infidelity for certain guys who feel they're entitled to the complete pleasures of a vacation/trip and "what happens in Baltimore, stays in this Baltimore" but don't make it a part of their normal life). It ups the irony that when Don succumbed to acting on his attraction to Suzanne near the end of S3, he not only cheated in town, he REALLY cheated in town as in right in his family life. However, yup, Don wasn't exactly tempted by another women in S3- unless you say that I think it's the longest time that Don was clearly into a woman without making a move. He eyed Suzanne in May and I think they first slept together in September. (Although, come to think of it, his only real temptation in S5 was the whorehouse in Signal 30. And IMO, Don had other turn-offs there between past trauma, and making a public spectacle of nabbing a whore in front of Pete/Roger/Jaguar guy that made me pretty sure that he wasn't taking a cold shower when he got home or anything.) To add with your times and the 1920s, it's interesting that Roger and Jane's big first party as a couple was so 1920s. That's Roger's boyhood and Jane wasn't anywhere near around. The party symbolizes how the marriage is Roger being a child and Jane tagging along for this novelty of 1920s, WASP countryclubs, being the rich boss's wife that she knows nothing about, it out of her depth, but seems cool at first. I also like that Roger/Peggy scene. I think a lot of characters get thrown in to play off Peggy and I often find the results disappointing (her whole string of boyfriends- Ted/Stan/Mark/Abe/Duck, Joyce, Megan, Ginsberg in a bunch of scenes, Ken when we're supposed to infer more than is plainly presented). However, Peggy/Roger is ALWAYS delightful even though they feel thrown together because it's not like they inhabit each other's worlds or share any values other than their close tie to Don/the business. It is the type of a relationship where Roger wonders why they're in the same elevator, as opposed to him on an executive elevator. But still, every scene that they have together is gold. Then, it may have something to do with how Roger has a pretty perfect batting record in terms of how all of his main relationships are entertaining and interesting with chemistry galore. Edited July 12, 2016 by Melancholy 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 20 hours ago, Melancholy said: I kind of think that Bud really baited such a fight when he finked to his mother that Pete/Trudy are considering adoption. I think that Pete just KNEW that his parents hated him and gave up the ghost of getting anywhere near what Bud seemed to earned. Yeah, Pete definitely seemed to know that he wasn't getting anything regardless, and Bud knew it too--they have that exchange where Pete says something like "we weren't getting that money anyway" and Bud says "You weren't." So yeah, Pete is amazingly zen about it--but maybe that's just something that comes out when he's demanding things at work instead. I do think something that's implied in that family is that maybe Bud's being the favorite, as much as he could be, was not good for him. The little approval he did get made him exactly the person his parents wanted even if they didn't overpraise him for it. Pete seemed to figure that since he wasn't loved anyway he'd go out and do his own thing and that ultimately made him the more successful person. 20 hours ago, Melancholy said: And Betty's parents criticisms (you're a prostitute for being a model in your twenties, you suck for marrying and having three children with a guy because he didn't come from a good family) feel cruel while Megan's parents seemed like they had a point and they were trying to make her happier (don't throw an epic tantrum because you're not a movie star because few people become that, whether Emile meant "It's bad for your soul that you traded away a real marriage and your youth for Don's fortune" or the far nicer way that he put it emphasizing Megan's need to have her actual twentysomething years to pursue her passion with its attendant freedom and joys but risks and challenges.) It's almost been interesting to me how Megan's parents criticisms seem so much more legitimate. I guess part of it is that Betty's parents seemed to encourage everything about her that led to the things they later criticized. Maybe her mom didn't approve of modeling but she raised her daughter to consider her looks the most valuable thing about her. She was just mad that Betty tried to use them for an actual career where she was earning her own living instead of being somebody's wife. Where as with Megan I think her father probably did always encourage her to work at her art and be independent and while her mother's criticisms may have been coming from a place of bitterness at her father, that at least is consistent. Plus I just can't get over how correct both her parents are in what they're saying to Megan--as far as "parents unsupportive of my artistic dreams go, they're really not so bad at all. Both of them are kind of nailing the fact that Megan's not really doing what she says she wants to do. Whatever their motivations, they are actually telling her things that imply the career of acting is a career. 20 hours ago, Melancholy said: I sort of think that Don didn't think of it as cheating in S3. So funny that I didn't really think of it that way either. I almost said that he wasn't cheating on Betty, then remembered the stewardess. It feels like Suzanne is the real return to cheating to me too. 20 hours ago, Melancholy said: I think a lot of characters get thrown in to play off Peggy and I often find the results disappointing (her whole string of boyfriends-Ted/Stan/Mark/Abe/Duck, Joyce, Megan, Ginsberg in a bunch of scenes, Ken when we're supposed to infer more than is plainly presented) I had never noticed this but wow, that's so right. They really do use her that way and it doesn't always work. The Joan scenes are organic and are always somewhat intense because of where both characters are coming from, but with other characters not so much. I remember the whole "pact" thing with Ken that for a while people seemed to take as a serious plotpoint, like Peggy and Ken were seriously bonded for life and neither could get a different job without the other when they didn't seem that close to me. Workmates who got along well and probably bitched together about wanting to leave SCDP for someplace they were treated better, but that's it. Peggy was the person who could know about his writing and plans without wanting to use it in any way. So yeah, there's supposed to be a good relationship and some fun times we don't see onscreen, but neither needs to be there for major moments in each other's lives. But with Roger, yeah, I don't know what it is but the two of them just fizz together. I wonder if it was almost a surprise to everyone on the show too, that these two characters who don't have anything that would connect them on paper somehow bounce off each other beautifully almost because they're so different. When you think back on it it's amazing how great all their interactions are--Peggy is kind of a perfect not-as-straight-as-he-expects-her-to-be man. I watched My Old Kentucky Home last night. The scene where Harry's watching the Patio casting and asking the woman to twist for him is a real step in the direction of Harry the sleaze--I wonder if he's now taking tips from how the guys in California cast. This is also an ep where he and Jennifer will be in conflict, though not because of that. Love Paul's saying he'll go to the party in Harry's place--just give him the glasses. Love the juxtaposition of Don impressing Connie with his humble beginnings while Paul is shamed by his, even though he shouldn’t be. That's the tragedy of Paul throughout. He takes on so many different outward trappings of different types but never seems to feel he fits in. It's kind of perfect he winds up in a cult without really wanting to be there either. Even in a cult he feels like an outsider. I really hope he found his feet in California. Met some other sci-fi fans! I remembered that this ep had Joan performing her song and Pete and Trudy of course doing the Charleston, but it’s got Paul singing too--and Roger doing his blackface number. Peggy’s face listening to Paul sing is fantastic, it's so serious (because she's high). I also can’t help but see Don’s making that drink for Connie as a performance too, he’s so good at it, even jumping over the bar. And it’s a counterpoint to the guys in the office getting stoned--older men drinking 50s cocktails vs. younger people smoking weed. (Other time references--Smitty asks if they're "going back in time" because of Roger's Derby party, which is 20s themed, Sally's reading about the Roman Empire to Gene, Don and Connie reminisce.) Several wives are managing work dinners disguised as social outings and poor Jennifer comes out the worst. There's that great little moment where Trudy reacts to the other two women talking about babies which could have made her the outsider, but Jennifer fumbles the number of Draper children and isn't able to make smalltalk. Trudy, meanwhile, is on fire in this ep literally leading Betty around arm in arm like they're bffs. It's funny that for all Don's dislike of Pete he is the guy who most easily fits into that inner circle just as Trudy does. Don warns him not to hand out his business card, but I think he may just be trying to be doing a little dominating there--Pete knows how to behave at a party like this. Joan, meanwhile, has the worst husband to deal with. She's right, of course, about the seating, whether or not the guests would notice. In fact, that stuff about the Campbells sends me off on a tangent about the Brits ultimately going with Ken as Head of Accounts. Lane famously says Pete's clients feel their needs are being met while Ken's feel like they have no needs and that makes sense...but maybe it's not actually the best thing. Maybe Ken's clients being satisfied is a reflection of Ken wanting people satisfied, not wanting more, everything's smooth for him while Pete's aggressive. If his clients feel they have needs then they need SC. Ken was probably on the lookout for accounts at this party too, but Pete's going into this thing with an aggressive strategy imo. The Brits seeing Ken as more appealing is sort of a vote for smooth sailing over naval warfare. First glimpse of Henry Francis, with the name drop of Happy Rockefeller who Betty says married only a month after her divorce, with four kids...something Betty's going to almost do herself. I'm glad he at least ask her if he can touch her stomach, but I totally do not get why he’s so aggressively coming onto a very pregnant married woman. We never get a clue what was going on in his head here and it’s like the Glen bathroom moment—it’s never not going to define him as inappropriate. Pete and Trudy are freakin’ adorable hanging with Don and Betty here. Even Pete sounds cool with his “And yet they didn’t” line. There's another performance scene when the Cranes come over to try to ingratiate themselves and the Drapers and Campbells look at them so expectantly--and then they whiff it. Iirc, Jennifer says she'll do the talking but then she doesn't do a good job. Later she'll give a sad little attempt to dance while watching the Campbells and get upset when Henry just basically gives them both the hook. More tidbits to chew on when trying to think of how exactly the Crane marriage evolved... Joan’s song is so great—but it doesn’t sound like a professional. Good job, CH. It’s really fun watching all the clearly amateur performers the characters are. There’s also that nice comment by the doctor’s wife about how when she was growing up her mom played the piano while they read together. Don also mentions the band at the roadhouse where he worked. I guess Don and Betty are also performing looking perfect together. I love how Jane is so very quickly a trainwreck after marrying Roger. She was pretty cool as a secretary dealing with other guys her age but once he puts her into the wife role she's all trying-too-hard and seeming like a little girl. She seems far younger in this ep than she did in The New Girl, for instance. Even in the scene with her dress and hat and "my driver will be here soon, so could you send a girl down..." Roger isn't mean about her embarrassing him at all--he never seems to be like that with her. He just really can't connect with her too deeply. I don’t think Roger means his parting shot to Don as a class insult, but it’s a neat little comment on the earlier conversations with that theme, especially Connie's talk about being inside the Country Club and Don being outside the roadhouse. Don’s walk over to Betty looks a like his walk away from Megan at the end of S5 the way it’s shot. And his kissing of her seems like a rebuke of Roger more than anything. It's very cinematic, the hero walking up for the final kiss. In fact--I think this is what makes it so reminiscent of the end of S5, the way he strides toward the camera it almost feels like he's walking out of the TV entirely, right at the viewer. Walking off a set--or walking onto a set, which he seems to be doing with Betty, giving her the credit-ending kiss when she was probably in exactly the wrong frame of mind about him. It's a really aggressive angle of him walking--moreso than in The Phantom where it's more distant. 3 Link to comment
Melancholy July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I do think something that's implied in that family is that maybe Bud's being the favorite, as much as he could be, was not good for him. The little approval he did get made him exactly the person his parents wanted even if they didn't overpraise him for it. Pete seemed to figure that since he wasn't loved anyway he'd go out and do his own thing and that ultimately made him the more successful person. I agree with all of that. Quote Where as with Megan I think her father probably did always encourage her to work at her art and be independent and while her mother's criticisms may have been coming from a place of bitterness at her father, that at least is consistent. Plus I just can't get over how correct both her parents are in what they're saying to Megan--as far as "parents unsupportive of my artistic dreams go, they're really not so bad at all. Both of them are kind of nailing the fact that Megan's not really doing what she says she wants to do. Whatever their motivations, they are actually telling her things that imply the career of acting is a career. Yup. Plus as Peggy put it, I think this is a trait of Megan's: Peggy: You want to quit? Megan (victim mode): I don't know. What do I do? Peggy: You know there are people killing to get this job. You're taking up a spot and you don't even wanna do it? Megan (blamey victim-mode): I'm sorry I told you. Peggy: You didn't. I caught you. And then you act like you want advice, but you've obviously already made up your mind. Megan does this thing where she asks for input or people's opinions but gets furious when it doesn't go according to the script that Megan wrote for this feature film where Megan's the intrepid glamour-girl heroine or something i.e. Megan's expected daily life. That happened with her parents. She was crying in bed bemoaning to her mother "What do I do?!", but then she got pissed when Marie's answer wasn't what Megan wanted to hear.; She was showing off the apartment and fancy food when her parents visited and she was fishing for compliments like she achieved something by becoming so wealthy and she was doing more of the same with Emile at the Codfish Ball and then, got upset just because Emile responded to Megan's solicitations of compliments by saying why he wasn't in the mode to celebrate how she was living her life. Plus, her parents are giving her advice that Megan can actually use. Megan can exercise her choice to not let her marriage to Don stop her from pursuing her dreams instead of his. Or she can exercise her choice to see that the acting thing wasn't panning out after she gave it an effort, so she could pick herself up and find joy in the stuff and relationships that she does have. Even though the advice is different, it's all constructive and stuff that Megan could actually do. Meanwhile with Betty, we didn't see whether Betty solicited her mother's opinions about modelling. I assume that she asked her parents for their approval of her marriage to Don- and they criticized it which was their prerogative as parents. However, Gene seems to opinion-belch about Don when his opinion wasn't solicited and it wasn't the time and place. Maybe excuse his outburst in The Inheritance as senility- but there's a vibe that this was a long-running fight. And Gene had to opinion-belch about how Betty failed at marrying Don while at the same time demanding her attention to his death. Moreover, most of the criticisms aren't constructive or anything that Betty can really take to heart to fix her life. Gene wasn't suggesting that Betty leave Don with her two kids and later on one on the way. That would be dangerous without another husband lined up. But even then, I didn't see Gene open his home to Betty or prescribe a path forward. He just wanted to yell at her. Sure, Betty could stop modeling but that doesn't remove her mother's epithet that Betty is now a prostitute. That's an insult and it's one that sticks because once a woman has fallen, she can't get up according Ruth's mindset. They weren't even really trying to be helpful while the Calvets really were. Quote I had never noticed this but wow, that's so right. They really do use her that way and it doesn't always work. The Joan scenes are organic and are always somewhat intense because of where both characters are coming from, but with other characters not so much. I remember the whole "pact" thing with Ken that for a while people seemed to take as a serious plotpoint, like Peggy and Ken were seriously bonded for life and neither could get a different job without the other when they didn't seem that close to me. Workmates who got along well and probably bitched together about wanting to leave SCDP for someplace they were treated better, but that's it. Peggy was the person who could know about his writing and plans without wanting to use it in any way. So yeah, there's supposed to be a good relationship and some fun times we don't see onscreen, but neither needs to be there for major moments in each other's lives. But with Roger, yeah, I don't know what it is but the two of them just fizz together. I wonder if it was almost a surprise to everyoneon the show too, that these two characters who don't have anything that would connect them on paper somehow bounce off each other beautifully almost because they're so different. When you think back on it it's amazing how great all their interactions are--Peggy is kind of a perfect not-as-straight-as-he-expects-her-to-be man. That's a great way to put it. I also like Peggy's interactions with Joan- except for the IMO, syrupy end in Person to Person. However, I cling to how it's juxtaposed with the encounter group and "Does hugging feel honest?" as well as Peggy's ultimate choice to not take the job and the appearance of success because Joan was going it alone. I think Peggy does well with the CORE SEVEN-SEASON cast- Pete, Joan, Roger, Don. That's all good. She's got some extra satellite characters that she pings well with- her family, Kinsey, Freddy, Ginsberg at times. However, yeah, it's a little notable that MM really tried giving Peggy so many relationships and characters to play off of but her batting average felt so much lower than the other main characters. Quote Love the juxtaposition of Don impressing Connie with his humble beginnings while Paul is shamed by his, even though he shouldn’t be. That's the tragedy of Paul throughout. He takes on so many different outward trappings of different types but never seems to feel he fits in. It's kind of perfect he winds up in a cult without really wanting to be there either. Even in a cult he feels like an outsider. I really hope he found his feet in California. Met some other sci-fi fans! I like Paul so much. I think it says everything that he was humiliated that he went to Princeton on scholarship and the guy who ended up as a drug pusher feels superior because his parents paid sticker price. He has a lot of poignant moments- stripped of all possessions but still a Star Trek fan as he watches the show through a store window, "You know, I got there and I started trying to figure out who Prabhupad likes best. It's the same as everywhere I go. He doesn't like me. No one likes me. Sometimes I think Krishna doesn't even like me. No one but Lakshmi.", humiliated that Ken found his "Death is my Client" but then so into himself but also IMO, being creative that he's stage-directing the office to perform it by the next cut. Such an underrated favorite. Quote I remembered that this ep had Joan performing her song and Pete and Trudy of course doing the Charleston, but it’s got Paul singing too--and Roger doing his blackface number. Peggy’s face listening to Paul sing is fantastic, it's so serious (because she's high). I also can’t help but see Don’s making that drink for Connie as a performance too, he’s so good at it, even jumping over the bar. And it’s a counterpoint to the guys in the office getting stoned--older men drinking 50s cocktails vs. younger people smoking weed. (Other time references--Smitty asks if they're "going back in time" because of Roger's Derby party, which is 20s themed, Sally's reading about the Roman Empire to Gene, Don and Connie reminisce.) Quote I also consider Don's cocktail making (and stories with Connie) as a performance. Ditto for Sally reading Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire as well as her entirely performative search for Gene's money which she stole. LOL and "I walked backwards all the way from the living room!" Also Peggy copywriting aloud with the guys being in awe. Quote I's funny that for all Don's dislike of Pete he is the guy who most easily fits into that inner circle just as Trudy does. Don warns him not to hand out his business card, but I think he may just be trying to be doing a little dominating there--Pete knows how to behave at a party like this. See, I don't think Don was being dominating. I don't even think that Don dislikes Pete, at this point. First, I don't think it's THAT obvious to not hand out a business card at this event. Second, Pete has made etiquette faux pas or seemed like a weird guy by coming off too eager and aggressive. He's not beyond advice. I do think Don was being dismissive more than dominating. I would write Don's thoughts as, "Ok, go get 'em tiger. I'm all for landing new business as a silver lining to this annoying party. However while our wives are bonding, we will not be. I'm already pissed about being here and you're not a friend but an only recently-emerging business asset. Do what you can, I applaud it but I'm going to look for a drink to nurse my irritation about being here and a place to pout about being here." Quote Roger isn't mean about her embarrassing him at all--he never seems to be like that with her. He just really can't connect with her too deeply. See, I think Roger was VERY mean. "CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GET HER A GLASS OF MILK?!" addressed to the entire tent. It's humiliating. Other husbands have been embarrassed at their wives drinking too much on this show. They didn't try to make a huge public yelling joke out of it. Plus, it underscores how much more important Don is to Roger that Jane wasn't feeling well and she was clearly nauseous and uncomfortable but Roger would rather force a conversation about his relationship with Don than look after his wife. We don't really see Roger and Jane alone together that often. However, I think he's an asshole to her and I think Jane was right on point in her hurt that Roger doesn't like her in Far Away Places. Roger conceded that point with, "...I did." Even in their limited interactions, Roger humiliates Jane far more than most husbands and tries making a big public joke out of her. "It's the most interest that girl's ever shown in a book depository." After Megan's performance, bringing over Jane to make a "Don, you lucky so and so...As a wise man once said, the only thing worse than not getting what you want is someone else getting it.". And also from A Little Kiss "You know, two weeks ago, Jane asked me, "Which one's Mussolini?"....No, it's good. She's a great girl. They're all great girls. At least until they want something." And from Lady Lazarus (admittedly after they agreed to divorce so things are naturally bitter) "Jane wanted a baby but I thought 'why do that to somebody?" Or in Christmas Comes But Once a A Year, Jane was being a little annoying and nosey by questioning Don if he was bringing someone to Acapulco and when he said he was going alone being all, "It's your fault for not falling for my friend Bethany!", but then Roger has to REALLY insult and undermine Jane's role in this public work-social conversation at the Christmas party. "Yes, I pity him. Marooned in that sea of bikinis." Roger didn't just fail to connect with Jane. He quickly developed utter contempt for her and resentment that he was with her instead of his realer loves, Joan or Mona. And Roger did what he did- he turned his contempt for Jane into a comedic act and took it on the road. Edited July 13, 2016 by Melancholy 4 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 31 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Roger didn't just fail to connect with Jane. He quickly developed utter contempt for her and resentment that he was with her instead of his realer loves, Joan or Mona. And Roger did what he did- he turned his contempt for Jane into a comedic act and took it on the road. I am totally going to have to watch this going forward. I remembered almost not a single thing you referenced here so I've obviously got a skewed view of Roger/Jane in my memory! In this ep I was mostly just thinking that he didn't have a scene where he was scolding her. He more just treated her like a child who'd made a mess. Which of course is your point anyway, so you're right. I was totally being led by Roger's not responding to nearly anything by being openly angry. He's still light and making jokes at the end of the party, but then, that doesn't mean he's making those jokes for Jane or to make the situation easier for her, especially since not many people are even there at that point. I had thought of him not really seeming to regret his choice with Jane until Margaret's wedding when he's got two of them crying but I think you're right that his "get her a glass of milk" is distancing himself from the drunk child even if he's dancing with her later. (Heh, that also just made me connect Jane getting drunk here with Sally in Three Sundays.) Jane, early on, really shows up the situation for what it is. Roger must have all these great fantasies about what things will be like with her and then even he can see he's just married a very young girl with not much on her mind (not that Roger is a deep thinker but simply by living a long time he's got more things he considers basic knowledge) who can't hold her liquor, has made his family angry at him and lost him Don's respect. He does look foolish. Or at least he doesn't look like he probably imagined he'd look. Maybe it is a bit like Don and Megan after the party, where he suggests that bringing people from work into their home ruined things. But that just shows how the relationship was a bit illusionary if it can't hold up to other people looking at it plainly. 35 minutes ago, Melancholy said: You know, I got there and I started trying to figure out who Prabhupad likes best. It's the same as everywhere I go. He doesn't like me. No one likes me. Sometimes I think Krishna doesn't even like me. There's such a theme on the show of people having to really work through dependence on other peoples' approval. Paul's so likable to me in part because he really does seem to *work* for the approval. Like the fact that he got into Princeton on scholarship should make him more sure of his achievements, but then he feels inadequate to guys like his dealer. I even always think that's an issue with his writing, that he's so much thinking about what he should be writing he doesn't write as well as he could. 39 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Even though the advice is different, it's all constructive and stuff that Megan could actually do. This is so true. And like you said, in Betty's case there's really nothing I can see that would have made her parents happy. She did what they told her to do, but somehow she did it wrong. There's no respect for her on her own terms--which is the thing that Betty ultimately explicitly gives Sally. Where as with Megan I don't see that kind of bait and switch at all. Some people felt Marie, especially, was too harsh with her but either way what both her parents were saying was something she very much needed to hear and it wasn't coming out of nowhere. Emile's values were pretty clear and consistent so there's no way Megan could really expect him to praise her marrying a rich guy as success. Especially as an artist he's going to see her as selling out. But it was even more important--he was disappointed with her for devaluing herself. Sure he didn't have respect for advertising, but if Megan really cared about advertising she'd be able to defend it better. (Look at Pete's great moment at that party where he shows him the "art" of accounts--Pete whose own father said advertising was "no job for a white man.") She was kind of asking him to rubber stamp something that was obviously not a good idea. And it's not even like he told her she had to leave Don or anything like that. He just pointed out that he knew she herself didn't feel like a success this way and if she wanted to feel good she'd have to do things herself. In the very next episode she took practical steps to do that. I think any parent would be concerned seeing their daughter make that kind of choice and no matter how gently it was said, if Megan didn't want to hear it she'd be upset. In Marie's case, too, what she's saying to her really goes to the heart of Megan's whole problem as an artist. Anybody who wants to be an actor has to have some other motivation that to be a movie star and get approval from others. I'm sure that's a factor for plenty of people too, sure, but you have to find reason for doing it when you're not being successful. Megan already admitted she'd quit acting once by 24 or 25. Then she tries again and within a few months, iirc, she's crying and feeling like the most rejected person in the world even with a fancy apartment and wardrobe to come home to. There's so few actors who make it in that short a time anyway. She really did need to ask herself if she was really meant for this. Marie's really just giving voice to the question terrifying Megan to begin with--what if you don't "have it?" What if you're never going to be a shining star? What if people keep rejecting you? Are you looking forward to a potential career as an aging character actress or is this about being the beautiful ingenue? It's funny, actually, that after that convo it's Megan herself calling herself a whore, suggesting all she's good for is sex with Don because she can't act or whatever. Nobody's calling her a whore, she's just feeling sorry for herself--and iirc, trying to get Don to give her the commercial. That's her solution. She never really gets her moment where she's down and out and then puts her head down and gets a victory she really feels like she owns, it seems to me. Even when she's on the soap it feels like she's still more focused on being a star. Even Don can't help but echo Emile in telling her she's not going to want him to give her success. 2 Link to comment
Melancholy July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: I am totally going to have to watch this going forward. I remembered almost not a single thing you referenced here so I've obviously got a skewed view of Roger/Jane in my memory! In this ep I was mostly just thinking that he didn't have a scene where he was scolding her. He more just treated her like a child who'd made a mess. Which of course is your point anyway, so you're right. I was totally being led by Roger's not responding to nearly anything by being openly angry. He's still light and making jokes at the end of the party, but then, that doesn't mean he's making those jokes for Jane or to make the situation easier for her, especially since not many people are even there at that point. I had thought of him not really seeming to regret his choice with Jane until Margaret's wedding when he's got two of them crying but I think you're right that his "get her a glass of milk" is distancing himself from the drunk child even if he's dancing with her later. (Heh, that also just made me connect Jane getting drunk here with Sally in Three Sundays.) 1 hour ago, sistermagpie said: Yes, Roger's light here. Roger is meanly scoldy with Jane in The Grownups when Jane was just trying to make friend with Margaret and A Little Kiss when he wakes up on Pete's prank meeting with Pepsi, I think? and Jane just asks where he's going and he was rarin' up to look for a fight when Jane acted like she had a surprise for Roger, even though it was actually copies of Sterling's Gold. "What did you buy? <said accusatorily> One of the few times that we see them alone. Based on those interactions, I think Roger had a pattern where he was openly contemptuous and scoldy of Jane in private and comedically humiliated her in public as part of the Roger Sterling-act. Other than the halycon days of S2, I think Roger didn't like her and made that clear. As always with Roger, things get obscured because Roger makes a joke out of everything and never takes anything that seriously so his feelings, "thoughts clean and unclean, loving and...the opposite of that", seem shallow. However even though he was treating Jane's conduct like a joke, it was a joke with the crueler edge. I agree that Roger was regretting how things turned out with Jane. I think it's also entirely possible that he missed Mona too. He certainly missed Joan- and that's a combination of her ending the affair and getting married but also the distance/wedge caused by Jane. Jane devolved from the ultimate symbol of "Roger Sterling can have ANY woman- because he's that rich and handsome and charmed" to a wedge driving Roger away from women that he actually valued more. I think that's why Roger actually seems to openly and consistently dislike Jane, in the way that the other men don't even to the wives they treat poorly. Quote There's such a theme on the show of people having to really work through dependence on other peoples' approval. Paul's so likable to me in part because he really does seem to *work* for the approval. Like the fact that he got into Princeton on scholarship should make him more sure of his achievements, but then he feels inadequate to guys like his dealer. I even always think that's an issue with his writing, that he's so much thinking about what he should be writing he doesn't write as well as he could. I agree. I thought a classic case was in The Color Blue when Kinsey would rather just show up unprepared for the Western Union meeting than admit to Don that he had a great idea but he didn't write it down because he saw it as a "The dog ate my homework" excuse. Peggy pushed Kinsey to tell, in Peggy's attempt to try to help Kinsey. Don was furious at first that Kinsey wasn't prepared, but actually learning that Kinsey had a great idea but lost it because he didn't write it down, actually calmed Don down and Don empathized with Kinsey over that. "Oh.....I hate it when that happens." To me, part of that dynamic came from how Peggy and Don KNOW that they're writers with all of the quirks and idiosyncrasies common to writers. Kinsey is a lot less secure about that and he believes that he's more of an aspiring writer who needs to affect the snooty accent and pipe and smoking jacket but he's not really in the writing club where he could count on another writer empathizing with his writing issues. He's more a pupil trying to justify himself to a teacher, in his head. 2 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Edited July 13, 2016 by Melancholy 2 Link to comment
small potatoes July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 It might not have seemed like Don was cheating with the stewardess because he wasn't really trying to pick her up in the first place. To me it seemed like he was just trying to be a good wing man for Sal, helping him get laid on a road trip. Funny how that turned out. Link to comment
Melancholy July 13, 2016 Share July 13, 2016 (edited) I don't think Don was trying to help Sal get laid. He wasn't even slightly nudging Sal to Shelly's cute but not as beautiful friend. Maybe you could read the "We're FBI accountants" as that because Don clearly didn't need a hook and line with Shelly, It's Been Swelly at this point but Sal could use one- but I think that was more about Don amusing himself albeit with Sal in a buddy role on Don's hijinks. There is an irony that Don and Sal were in such buddy mode- and then, they got a little too close when Don found out about Sal's homosexuality. I do think that Don was making it a party with Sal so I really see your point- but Don didn't seem to have any feeling on whether Sal got off the elevator alone. It wasn't like Don with Lane in The Good News or something where Don was pretty damn invested in Lane getting not only laid but feeling like a girl slept with him for him. It's a little more understandable cheating from the standpoint of 1963. Is a businessman really not going to accept a stewardess throwing herself at him constantly- on the plane, at the restaurant, in the elevator to his room, in the hallway-, providing a special entry to the nicest restaurant while they're still on the waiting list, making it a party where the pilot shows up? In favor of what? Sitting in his hotel room and waiting one of the three black and white channels until the meeting the next day with no Internet or cell phone and more limited attractions in Baltimore? Strictly speaking, that's exactly what Don should have done but these out of town affairs are hardly Don making a choice to not go home to his family or work in office to for a mistress. In terms of news stories that came out today, it's not like Don is living in the age of Bill Clinton who can run up like $120 in "hotel movies" on one university speech where the AHEM "hotel movies" probably sub in for the stewardess (flattering assumptions to Bill). http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/07/12/bill-clintons-outlandish-expenses-during-speaking-engagements-revealed Edited July 13, 2016 by Melancholy Link to comment
small potatoes July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Maybe I'm reading too much into it but the more I think about it, the more it seems like the show was having fun with the idea of Don as "wing man." He wasn't (conventionally) successful with Sal, but he did bring home a wing for Sally. As an aside, I've hit the like button for a couple of posts today and nothing happened. I tried several times and it just wouldn't take. I sent a note to the mods and couldn't get through to them. That's why I'm mentioning it here. Link to comment
qtpye July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 19 hours ago, sistermagpie said: It's funny, actually, that after that convo it's Megan herself calling herself a whore, suggesting all she's good for is sex with Don because she can't act or whatever. Nobody's calling her a whore, she's just feeling sorry for herself--and iirc, trying to get Don to give her the commercial. That's her solution. She never really gets her moment where she's down and out and then puts her head down and gets a victory she really feels like she owns, it seems to me. Even when she's on the soap it feels like she's still more focused on being a star. Even Don can't help but echo Emile in telling her she's not going to want him to give her success. One of the problems is that Megan never had to struggle for anything. I remember Peggy saying something like ( I can not remember the exact quote) " Megan is one of those girls that is good at everything and so nice you do not hate her for it" or something to that affect. I think the one quality Megan lacked was hunger. There was no reason for her to be hungry because her plate was always full. When Megan was first introduced, she was the beautiful new secretary. However, she was presented in a very refined manner with expensive elegant clothing. There have been beautiful secretaries in the office before, but not like this (or at least that is what we are supposed to think). We have heard many women in the office talk about how the hoped to find a husband at work (probably typical attitude for the times) and Megan comes in and bags the greatest prize....the handsome and rich Don Draper. Don's only drawback was he had three kids, but a lot of women would not mind being a stepmother and of course Megan was a natural. Don married her because he truly thought he a rare jewel, a beautiful sophisticated woman who loved advertising and would be a great caregiver to his children. She did not challenge him like, Faye, and made him feel like the king of the world. Later, he finds out that Megan does not like advertising (even though like everything else she is good at it). It is a huge disappointment, but he still supports her acting career, because he can understand having a dream. When Megan gets drunk and starts feeling sorry for herself and begs Don to give her the part in the commercial...that is when Don realizes that she is not some amazing person. She is slightly spoiled and does not mind taking the easy road, because she has never taken the hard way around anything. It is understandable. Why would you bust your butt going to auditions when you have a husband with connections? That commercial helped her land the part in soap opera. However, Don tends to abandon his wives emotionally as soon as they show themselves to be human. He also has a giant virgin/whore complex because of the awful way he was raised and Megan's acting career became slightly like prostitution to him, because she came by it cheaply. Megan, for her part, started enjoying the role of being the rich man's wife. When she moved to Los Angeles she became a dilettante with little responsibilities. It was not until she knew the marriage was dead that she began doing desperate things like stalking directors. It was not a coincidence that at their divorce she became quiet when Don gave her a million dollars. He realized they had no connection and that she would not miss him, but the comfort he provided with his wealth. The interesting thing was that Megan was not initially a gold digger, but she had gotten used to a lifestyle and as I said before, enduring hardship is not her thing. 19 hours ago, Melancholy said: Based on those interactions, I think Roger had a pattern where he was openly contemptuous and scoldy of Jane in private and comedically humiliated her in public as part of the Roger Sterling-act. Other than the halycon days of S2, I think Roger didn't like her and made that clear. As always with Roger, things get obscured because Roger makes a joke out of everything and never takes anything that seriously so his feelings, "thoughts clean and unclean, loving and...the opposite of that", seem shallow. However even though he was treating Jane's conduct like a joke, it was a joke with the crueler edge. I agree that Roger was regretting how things turned out with Jane. I think it's also entirely possible that he missed Mona too. He certainly missed Joan- and that's a combination of her ending the affair and getting married but also the distance/wedge caused by Jane. Jane devolved from the ultimate symbol of "Roger Sterling can have ANY woman- because he's that rich and handsome and charmed" to a wedge driving Roger away from women that he actually valued more. I think that's why Roger actually seems to openly and consistently dislike Jane, in the way that the other men don't even to the wives they treat poorly. Roger realized, too late, that he did not love Jane, but what she represented. He got carried away by an ethereal moment with her and mistook that for love. It must have been thrilling to feel that excitement after all the years of numbness. However, that was fleeting and he realized that he did not like her very much. He felt like he suckered himself in marrying a woman, who really should have been a one night stand. He knew he looked like a fool and that was his way of lashing out. The great irony was that Jane actually ended up falling in love with him. She was devastated when their marriage ended. It is interesting to note that both Megan and Jane left their marriages much wealthier women, but I guess that is not that unusual in May/December pairings. 1 Link to comment
Melancholy July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 (edited) I hold the UO of thinking that Megan was a lot more calculating and gold-diggery about how she approached Don than Jane was with Roger. Roger hit on Jane a lot and Jane knew perfectly well that Roger was the big shot senior partner with his name on the door. However, Jane didn't go for Roger in his first attempts and I don't even get the vibe that she was playing it cool. She just really seemed a lot more interested in having some torrid affair with Don or flirting en masse with the young guys than being Roger's new sidepiece and getting fur coats and stuff, much less luring Roger from his long-time marriage with Mona. However, then Joan fired Jane and it was a case of "desperate times, call for desperate measures" and Jane probably somewhat correctly felt that she was being treated unfairly by Joan to be punished for hijinks that everyone pulls and that most of middle management was playing with her at the time but not getting so much as a lecture, let alone a firing. So, she begged Roger for help. Only in THAT meeting, I feel like Roger really endeared himself to Jane by being her shiny white knight and speaking very nicely and gently to her instead of relentlessly hitting on her and engaging Roger's charming way with words. "Jane on Jane Street. That's a pretty picture." That's when the attraction bell went off in Jane- I could see it happen. It certainly didn't ring because Roger Sterling, Big Shot Name Partner, hit on her for the first and then, eleventh time. And I think for the rest of S2, Roger could build on that since Jane didn't know a lot about him since she worked for Don and not Roger so Roger could really control her image of him. The "Jane on Jane Street" Roger was still the Roger in the poetry reading scene in S2- so I think that's how Roger presents when he thinks he's in love. IMO, Roger's more callous side and his fractured relationship with Margaret and the uglier side came as something of a shock to Jane. Jane: I'm tired of the awkwardness. And I'm trying to be nice. I don't know what kind of world you live in, but I am the good person here! Roger: You're not good because you didn't listen to me and you really upset her. Meanwhile, having a relationship with Don in S4 is a profoundly different. I think that most intelligent women understand that they're at their own risk by getting involved with a married man and he probably won't leave his wife for the mistress. Joan understood that when she got involved with Roger. I think Jane expected that too and Roger really surprised her by leaving Mona and Jane was humiliated at the consequences of that (but not enough to still play her role in breaking up the marriage). However, Don in S4 was completely eligible to get remarried. He's somewhat damaged goods what with having three kids and a recent divorce (and given the times, I think it's fair to have a presumption that it was his fault/choice instead of the ex-wife), but he's an eligible bachelor to be a rich husband to some lady and Bethany, Faye, and Megan were all very aware of this and I think they all had aspirations of commitment and later marriage in their heads. However, Bethany, in her defense, only saw Don in date-mode. She was very aware that he had a drawback from being divorced, but she didn't know him well enough to come up with other issues but it was clear that she was trying very hard to really get to know him. Faye, in her defense, did see Don's flaws but between her own checkered past (childhood and romances), her professional inclination to treat a patient muddying up her personal instincts to run, her actual true desire to be part of a Mad Ave power couple, and the fact that she was hard-core falling in love put blinders on her eyes. Megan, on the other hand, really had a front row seat to Don's problems as a husband because she worked closely with him. She knew that he had trouble controlling his drinking and inappropriately asked her for help dealing with it. She knew that he'd break his own Clio award on just Day 1 of Post-Lucky Strike. She was on the receiving end of one of his terrifying tantrums where you get a flash of anger but then don't know what the fuck it was about in the near DoD disaster. She had a running list of the women he was involved with in S4 and clearly formed a judgment that his sexual appetites meant he was dangerous as a husband. She knew that his homelife was disorganized, at best. I have a measure of sympathy for a bunch of Don's women that they felt snookered by his first impression and learned about his problems later- but really none for Megan. Of all of the women that he was romantically involved with, her "courtship" was bearing witness to his dysfunction. What's more, I don't find Megan had Faye's compassion love-goggles or attraction love-goggles or shrink love-goggles or "we have similar personalities" love-goggles. Megan found Don's inner angst very inconvenient and something to be dismissed as opposed to Faye's interest in diagnosing/curing/helping. I think Megan thought sleeping with Don was pleasant enough but he's clearly not as hot to Megan (whose is UNUSUALLY aware of her youth- in a reflection of the times and Megan taking stock her of her commodities) as he is to someone in Don's own age group or someone north of 30 who has more '50s/early '60s aesthetics. Megan's only excuse is that I think she minimized some of these issues because she grew up with her parents having them too. However, she was aware of the defects. Megan was very deliberately telling lies/untruths/spinning her opinions to wrap themselves around Don's personality to endear herself to him. "I'm FASCINATED by advertising" <in the middle of the lesson> "Can I sit on your lap?" "I think it's wonderful that you took a stand against Big Tobacco for the good of mankind! Oh, you're up and saying that you didn't do it for that reason! Well, OK- I think it's clever that you TRICKED mankind into believing you're against Big Tobacco to suit your self-interest- IT'S LIKE WE HAVE ONE MIND!" "You judge people on their work. I'm the same way. Everything else is sentimental." It's all pretty calculated to me. So, Megan played it cool for like a week after they first slept together (which Megan promised to do to convince Don to give up his Allison-induced reservations about secretary-sex) and the trip to California/insta-proposal was a surprise. I still think that Megan was working on starting a romance with Don (to end in marriage) - she just thought it would take more time. I think Megan can play her gold-diggerness a little more unconsciously, also, because she's a product of Marie's materialism AND Emile's self-righteous liberalism. She has Marie's wants but she's learned from Emile how to package them to some extent, to seem particularly relevant to the late '60s and to come off like the good person instead of openly grasping like Marie. So, I know it's UO but I do think Megan was a gold-digger from beginning to end and she exhibits far more of the strategies of a gold-digger than Jane. I think Jane gets tagged with the gold digger label while Megan weasels out of it just because Roger has white hair. Edited July 14, 2016 by Melancholy 4 Link to comment
qtpye July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 38 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Megan was very deliberately telling lies/untruths/spinning her opinions to wrap themselves around Don's personality to endear herself to him. "I'm FASCINATED by advertising" <in the middle of the lesson> "Can I sit on your lap?" "I think it's wonderful that you took a stand against Big Tobacco for the good of mankind! Oh, you're up and saying that you didn't do it for that reason! Well, OK- I think it's clever that you TRICKED mankind into believing you're against Big Tobacco to suit your self-interest- IT'S LIKE WE HAVE ONE MIND!" "You judge people on their work. I'm the same way. Everything else is sentimental." It's all pretty calculated to me. So, Megan played it cool for like a week after they first slept together (which Megan promised to do to convince Don to give up his Allison-induced reservations about secretary-sex) and the trip to California/insta-proposal was a surprise. I still think that Megan was working on starting a romance with Don (to end in marriage) - she just thought it would take more time. I think Megan can play her gold-diggerness a little more unconsciously, also, because she's a product of Marie's materialism AND Emile's self-righteous liberalism. She has Marie's wants but she's learned from Emile how to package them to some extent, to seem particularly relevant to the late '60s and to come off like the good person instead of openly grasping like Marie. So, I know it's UO but I do think Megan was a gold-digger from beginning to end and she exhibits far more of the strategies of a gold-digger than Jane. I think Jane gets tagged with the gold digger label while Megan weasels out of it just because Roger has white hair. These are all very good points. I think the reason Don fell so hard and fast, was he truly believed Megan saw him, warts and all, and she still loved him. Also, has you pointed out, she was very good at saying the right things at the right time, so Don believed he had found his mirror image. It's interesting, Don the ultimate deceiver, was snookered by someone who seemed as guileless as Megan. This is why he opened up to her about his past. In truth you are pointing out that Jane was never with Roger just because of his money and power. She loved Roger and might have been with him if he was an average guy, but Megan loved the "allure" of Don Draper and never would have looked twice at Dick Whitman. She is actually much more materialistic then any other woman on the show. Also, their age difference is not apparent. Someone said that with Don's wives, you would never know who was the first or second wife, because Betty was just as youthful looking and beautiful as Megan (fat Betty aside). Even though Mona was still very attractive, from the outside it just looked like a handsome, but older guy trading in his wife for a newer model. I was always so impressed with how maturely Mona handled the situation. I was happy she did not walk around like a woman scorned and you could tell they still had an affection for each other. 5 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 12 minutes ago, qtpye said: She is actually much more materialistic then any other woman on the show. In the last ep I saw Jane's obviously flaunting her new wealth--she's wearing a fabulous dress and a giant hat and talking about her driver, and she's previous bought Harry an inappropriately expensive gift. But I don't think that makes her a gold-digger, more just a girl who's having fun with all the new wealth she has. I mentioned it just because it's funny how Megan does exactly the same thing without it really being remarked upon the same way. Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style always noted that Megan was dressed in up-to-the-second clothing and that everything she wore was expensive. Like I think in Dark Shadows she's talking to her friend who's genuinely stylish and her friend is wearing cheap clothes put together in a creative way (for instance, she's wearing a sleeveless dress with layering so it works all year) and Megan's wearing what sort of looks like a plain sweater but it has leather insets that probably mean it's really pricey. Even when she's in California and ostensibly trying to fit in by not having a big TV, for instance, she really never goes for the hippie fashion for real. At the party she throws other people are in jeans while she's in a designer dress--and even her jeans seem to be expensive fashion rather than the cheap stuff. Even the apartment she and Don live in is a bit like Roger's office as decorated by Jane in the latest decor. It's just sort of a pattern with Jane that probably for multiple reasons she gets judged as a gold-digger where Megan isn't even when Megan really did make a concerted effort to land Don where Jane really didn't, and when Megan spends money the same way as a wife. When Jane and Roger are in the hotel room Jane's reading him poetry she's written and it's not incredibly good and not terribly bad at all either--but definitely seems like Jane honestly expressing herself. She's not doing those pivots like Megan where she makes statements about herself to match Don, almost none of which really turn out to be true. She doesn't find advertising fascinating, she doesn't want to do what Peggy does, she's not someone who stands up for their principles or someone who thinks only the work matters. Megan makes a much better impression as Don's second wife, but maybe that too comes out of her being a people-pleaser and a chameleon. 2 hours ago, qtpye said: One of the problems is that Megan never had to struggle for anything. I remember Peggy saying something like ( I can not remember the exact quote) " Megan is one of those girls that is good at everything and so nice you do not hate her for it" or something to that affect. Yes, I've really seen her and Ken as very similar with this, that they both seem very naturally talented at things and get a lot of accolades early on, but have a harder time dealing with situations where that doesn't win the day. (Although I think Ken has to stand on his own two feet more than Megan does and is put through greater hell.) 3 Link to comment
qtpye July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 Quote In the last ep I saw Jane's obviously flaunting her new wealth--she's wearing a fabulous dress and a giant hat and talking about her driver, and she's previous bought Harry an inappropriately expensive gift. But I don't think that makes her a gold-digger, more just a girl who's having fun with all the new wealth she has. I mentioned it just because it's funny how Megan does exactly the same thing without it really being remarked upon the same way. Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style always noted that Megan was dressed in up-to-the-second clothing and that everything she wore was expensive. Like I think in Dark Shadows she's talking to her friend who's genuinely stylish and her friend is wearing cheap clothes put together in a creative way (for instance, she's wearing a sleeveless dress with layering so it works all year) and Megan's wearing what sort of looks like a plain sweater but it has leather insets that probably mean it's really pricey. Even when she's in California and ostensibly trying to fit in by not having a big TV, for instance, she really never goes for the hippie fashion for real. At the party she throws other people are in jeans while she's in a designer dress--and even her jeans seem to be expensive fashion rather than the cheap stuff. Even the apartment she and Don live in is a bit like Roger's office as decorated by Jane in the latest decor. It's just sort of a pattern with Jane that probably for multiple reasons she gets judged as a gold-digger where Megan isn't even when Megan really did make a concerted effort to land Don where Jane really didn't, and when Megan spends money the same way as a wife. When Jane and Roger are in the hotel room Jane's reading him poetry she's written and it's not incredibly good and not terribly bad at all either--but definitely seems like Jane honestly expressing herself. She's not doing those pivots like Megan where she makes statements about herself to match Don, almost none of which really turn out to be true. She doesn't find advertising fascinating, she doesn't want to do what Peggy does, she's not someone who stands up for their principles or someone who thinks only the work matters. Megan makes a much better impression as Don's second wife, but maybe that too comes out of her being a people-pleaser and a chameleon. Yes, I think Megan definitely tried to fit the mold of what Don would want and was lucky that he did not really get to know her before marriage. I think the reason Jane is so harshly criticized in the world of the show is that Roger left Mona for Jane, while Don was already divorced, so therefore available. This brings up two interesting points: 1. I think most people can agree that Don would have never left Betty for Megan. He probably was so quick to jump at marriage to Megan, because he wanted to desperately fill the void in his life that was caused by the divorce. 2. I think it is also a safe bet that Megan would never have had an affair with Don if he was married. There was a good chance that Megan was interested in marriage and she probably did not want to be labeled a mistress (or worse a one night stand). 2 Link to comment
Melancholy July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 1 hour ago, qtpye said: These are all very good points. I think the reason Don fell so hard and fast, was he truly believed Megan saw him, warts and all, and she still loved him. Also, has you pointed out, she was very good at saying the right things at the right time, so Don believed he had found his mirror image. It's interesting, Don the ultimate deceiver, was snookered by someone who seemed as guileless as Megan. This is why he opened up to her about his past.. I know- right? I think that there's a pattern where Don, consummate manipulator and liar, gets rolled by the unlikeliest of people- Danny Seigel, stoned kids trying a last ditch marriage to avoid the draft, arguably Jimmy Barrett....and Megan. Quote Even though Mona was still very attractive, from the outside it just looked like a handsome, but older guy trading in his wife for a newer model. I was always so impressed with how maturely Mona handled the situation. I was happy she did not walk around like a woman scorned and you could tell they still had an affection for each other. I thought it was also pretty classy of Jane to come to Roger's mother's funeral- just like a mere year and a half after a contentious divorce. I think it's a function that they truly loved Roger but also as Mona said, "Roger Sterling, no matter what you do, everyone loves you. What you're seeing is them worried about how you feel about them." Roger actually couldn't even burn a bridge with anyone, no matter how much of an asshole he was, because he's so charming. Except for the most important bridge- with his daughter. (And maybe Bert Peterson. But even Bert was all "I think we can work together!" while Roger was salivating over thrill of firing him again.) Like even when Roger is describing that his divorce with Jane was contentious, from the way that Roger tells him, it's sounds like Jane's version of going on the attack was to say that the marriage was a disaster for her instead of Megan's version of going on the attack which is to make Don feel like the most irredeemable piece of shit in the world. Quote Also, their age difference is not apparent. Someone said that with Don's wives, you would never know who was the first or second wife, because Betty was just as youthful looking and beautiful as Megan (fat Betty aside). Yes, the main difference in Betty and Megan is that Betty's beauty typified the '50s and Megan's beauty typified the later '60s. However, they really looked around the same age and if anything, Betty was more exquisitely beautiful. I think the trendiness of a woman actually does matter a little to Don, despite his '50s look and dislike of later '60s music. He picks and chooses trends- but he does like the look of new, trendy things whether it's movies or the look of an ad or home decor or women or cars. However, yes, it's not a trade-in ala Mona for Jane (even though Mona was still very good-looking). 46 minutes ago, sistermagpie said: In the last ep I saw Jane's obviously flaunting her new wealth--she's wearing a fabulous dress and a giant hat and talking about her driver, and she's previous bought Harry an inappropriately expensive gift. But I don't think that makes her a gold-digger, more just a girl who's having fun with all the new wealth she has. I mentioned it just because it's funny how Megan does exactly the same thing without it really being remarked upon the same way. Tom and Lorenzo's Mad Style always noted that Megan was dressed in up-to-the-second clothing and that everything she wore was expensive. Like I think in Dark Shadows she's talking to her friend who's genuinely stylish and her friend is wearing cheap clothes put together in a creative way (for instance, she's wearing a sleeveless dress with layering so it works all year) and Megan's wearing what sort of looks like a plain sweater but it has leather insets that probably mean it's really pricey. Even when she's in California and ostensibly trying to fit in by not having a big TV, for instance, she really never goes for the hippie fashion for real. At the party she throws other people are in jeans while she's in a designer dress--and even her jeans seem to be expensive fashion rather than the cheap stuff. Even the apartment she and Don live in is a bit like Roger's office as decorated by Jane in the latest decor. Megan spins stuff and some people buy the bullshit. Megan threw a huge, ostentatious birthday party for Don with live band and open bar and basically commanded all employees to attend with the soft power of the Big Boss's wife, even though a lot of them were grumbling about it. However: Don: Don't waste money on things like that. Megan: It was my money and you don't get to decide what I do with it. Like, maybe Megan did pay for the party with her copywriter earnings. However, would Megan have been able to afford it with her copywriter earnings and forced the entire guest list to show and held it up at the fancy pad and then, had a maid come to clean it up (since I think Megan's "cleaning" was just foreplay) if Don wasn't paying for everything else in their lives? Or Megan's big economic distinction between driving a new convertible and wearing a Pucci dress to a hippie party vs. having a color TV. Or her big social distinction between desperately trying to land a role on TV vs. owning a TV- which is inherently condescending to the "little people" watching the "idiot box." Quote 2. I think it is also a safe bet that Megan would never have had an affair with Don if he was married. There was a good chance that Megan was interested in marriage and she probably did not want to be labeled a mistress (or worse a one night stand). Yup. It's a VERY important point for Megan to make to the Heinz people. Mrs. Heinz Beans: How did you two meet? Don: Well - At work. Megan (bursts in!): Don was divorced! Don looks embarrassed (Which is kind of ridiculous- it's true! and better than the alternative! But whatever- it's Don...Actually, I think he was a little embarrassed that that Megan has to clear that up when it wasn't asked.) Mrs. Heinz Beans (picking up on the embarrassment and Megan's weird hastiness as geting the story straight): Well, that's none of my business. 3 Link to comment
qtpye July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Like, maybe Megan did pay for the party with her copywriter earnings. However, would Megan have been able to afford it with her copywriter earnings and forced the entire guest list to show and held it up at the fancy pad and then, had a maid come to clean it up (since I think Megan's "cleaning" was just foreplay) I do not want to add to the pile on of JP playing Megan and what a bad actress she is, but that scene was when I first noticed her weaknesses. When Megan dropped her robe to reveal her bra and panty set to clean and then said that Don does not "deserve this" it was so awkward. JP is a very beautiful woman and it should have been seductive and alarming. Instead, I was wondering what the hell she was going for and how anyone could be turned on by that. Quote Or Megan's big economic distinction between driving a new convertible and wearing a Pucci dress to a hippie party vs. having a color TV. Or her big social distinction between desperately trying to land a role on TV vs. owning a TV- which is inherently condescending to the "little people" watching the "idiot box." Yeah, Megan's friends are not idiots. They see how lavishly Megan is styled and that she sits around the house all day doing nothing but going to the occasional audition. They know she is loaded (or being financed by someone who has a lot of money). I agree that the real reason she did not want a t.v. was that it was not cool among her artsy friends to have one. It was also interesting to me how LA Megan no clue how to hold on to Don. She through another party and was doing a sexy dance with a hippie. Then she invites him to a threesome with her friend. The problem was that Don has sexy women throwing themselves at him all the time. He did not marry her because she was a sex kitten. He married her because he thought she was wholesome, understanding, and loved advertising. In fact, Don had sexist notions that a wife should not dress too revealing or sexy. He loved having a beautiful woman on his arm and being the envy of every man in the room. However, he hated it when Betty would wear a bikini. Don probably believed that wives should be beautiful, but maintain a standard of modesty. Everything Megan was doing was pushing him away further. It was no wonder that previously confident Megan was so shaken when the pregnant niece showed up to the house...she knew Don would fall for that "madonna' vibe in a second. Edited July 14, 2016 by qtpye 1 Link to comment
Melancholy July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 7 minutes ago, qtpye said: I do not want to add to the pile on of JP playing Megan and what a bad actress she is, but that scene was when I first noticed her weaknesses. When Megan dropped her robe to reveal her bra and panty set to clean and then said that Don does not "deserve this" it was so awkward. JP is a very beautiful woman and it should have been seductive and alarming. Instead, I was wondering what the hell she was going for and how anyone could be turned on by that. Aw, see I like Jessica Pare. I think she had a pretty thankless role being an UNlovable asshole as opposed to most of the cast who are lovable assholes. However, I thought her performance was good. Maybe it's because I'm not the demographic but I didn't think it was supposed to be sexy to most people when Megan dropped her robe, other than just seeing the goods. I think it was supposed to seem jarring and weird and disturbing. This isn't even a judgment on S&M and rougher sex play. This wasn't even that- with Megan really embracing the bratty role of the much younger wife and prostitute lingo "getting this" even as she's briefly topping before Don takes her over. I think it was very correctly weird and confusing. Quote Yeah, Megan's friends are not idiots. They see how lavishly Megan is styled and that she sits around the house all day doing nothing but going to the occasional audition. They know she is loaded (or being financed by someone who has a lot of money). I agree that the real reason she did not want a t.v. was that it was not cool among her artsy friends to have one. Yup. Megan's friends in NY saw it. The Butler Shoes friend who thought Megan was connected and life with enough ease that she'd help her get the role so she wouldn't have to sleep with whomever to get the role. Or especially: Megan: Who the hell is this woman? Julia: She's a new character. She's a cook and she's in love. Megan: She's insane. She needs a drink. Julia: They want you to be emotional. You haven't even seen the show. Megan: I've seen a soap opera. I don't think I've seen one this bad. And isn't this supposed to be scary? Julia: I didn't come for an acting lesson, but thank you for making me more nervous. Megan: Come on, we used to laugh about this together. You'll go in and turn that Chuck into Tenderloin. Julia: You know what? It's just so easy for you from your throne on 73rd and Park. Some of us act for a living and we wait tables when we don't. Megan (whines): That's not fair. Julia (matter of fact): No, it isn't. Megan (more whining): What do you want me to say? That I'd kill for an audition in this piece of crap? I would. Are you happy? Julia (conciliatory): Look, I'm sorry. I'm nervous. I haven't had a job in a while and you're lucky, that's all. Megan (still VERY offended and angry and like she still feels like the victim in this conversation): I am. I can't imagine that ALL of Megan's friends didn't have the same thoughts. It could be even more insulting. IMO, Megan's agent was all "The husband's a matinee idol!" drooly-surprised when Don walked in because the agent was gay but also because I think he had a specific image of what kind of rich husband was setting Megan up in LA to go look for an acting job and it didn't look like Don Draper. There's also something parent-teacher conference about how the agent speaks to Don like, "I know she's your trophy wife/charge." Also IMO, Amy didn't do the walk of shame out of Megan's house merely because she had a threesome on drugs. I bet Amy's had a bunch of threesomes on drugs and she walks into the breakfast room WITH PRIDE. You go, girl. IMO, Amy walked out in shame because she saw in the cold, harsh, light of the morning that she was merely a pawn used in Megan's bid to get her husband (sugar daddy's) attention again and she felt like a third wheel. 1 Link to comment
qtpye July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Melancholy said: I can't imagine that ALL of Megan's friends didn't have the same thoughts. It could be even more insulting. IMO, Megan's agent was all "The husband's a matinee idol!" drooly-surprised when Don walked in because the agent was gay but also because I think he had a specific image of what kind of rich husband was setting Megan up in LA to go look for an acting job and it didn't look like Don Draper. There's also something parent-teacher conference about how the agent speaks to Don like, "I know she's your trophy wife/charge." There was one time where the agent called Don up in NY to complain about Megan stalking a director and he said something to the effect of "I'm worried about our girl" that it made it seem like he was talking about a daughter, not a wife. When life does not go well for Megan, she seems to regress maturity wise. 12 minutes ago, Melancholy said: Also IMO, Amy didn't do the walk of shame out of Megan's house merely because she had a threesome on drugs. I bet Amy's had a bunch of threesomes on drugs and she walks into the breakfast room WITH PRIDE. You go, girl. IMO, Amy walked out in shame because she saw in the cold, harsh, light of the morning that she was merely a pawn used in Megan's bid to get her husband (sugar daddy's) attention again and she felt like a third wheel. It's so interesting how different people can interpret the same exact scene in various ways. I thought Amy was one of those hanger on opportunists that was hanging around Megan to get all the "rich husband" perks that Megan was receiving by proxy. I do not think she would mind sleeping with a sugar daddy, if the money kept rolling in. I think Amy was savvy enough to realize that Don did not like her or really enjoy the threesome experience. She wanted to get out of there fast and would later sneak back when Don was gone. Don was always good at spotting opportunists and con artists (mostly because he is one himself), its just the Megan types that fool him. Edited July 14, 2016 by qtpye 3 Link to comment
Melancholy July 14, 2016 Share July 14, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, qtpye said: It's so interesting how different people can interpret the same exact scene in various ways. I thought Amy was one of those hanger on opportunists that was hanging around Megan to get all the "rich husband" perks that Megan was receiving by proxy. I do not think she would mind sleeping with a sugar daddy, if the money kept rolling in. I think Amy was savvy enough to realize that Don did not like her or really enjoy the threesome experience. She wanted to get out of there fast and would later sneak back when Don was gone. Don was always good at spotting opportunists and con artists (mostly because he is one himself), its just the Megan types that fool him. Interesting. I guess I didn't feel like I knew Amy well enough to make those assumptions so I just stuck to projecting how *I* think someone can have perfectly legitimate hurt feelings and embarrassment at being dragged into marital drama and performing sexually so that the wife can keep her rich husband's attention better. It felt a little bit like Amy was getting emotionally caught up in it between the drugs and the party and being Megan's BFF, and then, did the walk of shame when sober and coming down off the high of the big party. However, a big part of these S6-7 California scenes are about the hangers on of hippie culture intersecting with corporate culture intersecting with the entertainment world. I think I might also be looking at Amy as an emotional casualty of Megan to make a pattern with Stephanie in the same ep. Edited July 14, 2016 by Melancholy 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 24, 2016 Share July 24, 2016 Impressions from re-watching The Arrangements: I love when the guys ask Alison what kind of mood Don's in and she just says, "I'm never right." It's one of those classic Mad Men gems that's not only funny but gives Alison a whole personality. She'll need that later. The actress playing Kitty does a great job acting her total terror during Stan's acting out the Patio ad. Ho Ho's father's speech about his son living in a "cloud of success" that's all his father's and him seeing that failure might make him of use to someone is definitely something that plays out on the show for some characters. Interesting watching now that you can see Pete really chasing that Head of Accounts job, but it's mostly in the background. Jai alai or however you spell it still cracks me up. I remember it being a thing when I was a kid. Or something that was trying to be a thing. Even as a really little kid I didn't buy it. Don's half right on the J. The J's confusing, but you remember it. It's the "alai" that always screwed me up. I also love "It's a dead man's hat. Take it off." When Gene's not criticizing Betty for her traditional 50s woman choices he's pushing traditional 50s masculinity on Bobby. "See that? Dried blood!" The line about the ice cream smelling like oranges has always sounded so ominous to me. Am I wrong in thinking it's supposed to be evidence of a stroke? Usually I'd think that was an OTT reading but it seems very reasonable here. The guy playing Ho Ho is remarkably like young Pete in a lot of his mannerisms etc. And the inappropriate sharing of surprisingly detailed fantasies and thought processes... I usually don't think of Joan doing much copywriting but she does know how to advertise for the kind of roommate she'd want. Guess that makes sense--she's always been good at selling the one product that is herself. I like how the Gene story seems to maybe prime Don to react sensitively to Ho Ho's situation, and ultimately lead him back to looking at his own father. There's no clear line to draw from one to the other, but they do seem related. It also fits with the fact that Ho Ho is so much like Pete, who's at the table with them in the restaurant, and who used to look to Don for the same kind of fatherly approval. (Ho Ho's dad's feelings about his son besmirching his name also echo Pete's father.) Now he gets to look satisfied when Ho Ho says Pete talked him out of talking to Ogilvy and Pete himself gets a presumably stealth snarky line about his this is the kind of investment his dead (broke) father would have loved. The day after looking at his own father's picture Don's much more okay about "billing it to the kid." Don smashing the ant farm is one of my favorite Don moments ever. It's not just that it's funny and unsurprising that even Don couldn't handle that thing, but the way he manages to look so cool about it without pretending he did it on purpose. It's kind of an unspoken rebuke to Ho Ho thinking that if jai alai fails it's SC's fault. This is the second ep where Peggy takes Joan's lines for her own while she tries out that side of her personality. Go Peggy! It's also great watching her face when she hears the Patio guys proving her right. And Don's proud of her for it. (I guess that's also a little parallel to Pete's look about talking Ho Ho out of Ogilvy and Mather--they're both developing professionally.) Peggy's family's a nice counterpoint to the father/son stuff. A lot of people really don't like her mother for that "you'll get raped" line but they come across to me like a family that has problems but really isn't toxic at all. Plus let's face it, a lot of the men on this show long for a mother who would be upset at them for moving to another borough. I like how by the time Peggy's leaving (with a pep talk from a now supportive Anita) her mom's watching the TV she claimed she wanted to take back. Peggy can't really lose her mother's love any more than Don could have won his. I guess that also makes it fit that Bobby's own moments with Gene area full of conflict and doubt. I love how Betty looks really awful in the scene after Gene's died. Her nose is bright red and she spits fruit all over herself. Kiernan Shipka's good in her big scene yelling at the grownups. Her lisp gives the whole thing a nice Linus Van Pelt quality. It also made me now think of her "You make me sick!" to Don in S6 after finding him with Sylvia. The characters are so consistent. Link to comment
Melancholy July 24, 2016 Share July 24, 2016 11 hours ago, sistermagpie said: I like how the Gene story seems to maybe prime Don to react sensitively to Ho Ho's situation, and ultimately lead him back to looking at his own father. There's no clear line to draw from one to the other, but they do seem related. It also fits with the fact that Ho Ho is so much like Pete, who's at the table with them in the restaurant, and who used to look to Don for the same kind of fatherly approval. (Ho Ho's dad's feelings about his son besmirching his name also echo Pete's father.) Now he gets to look satisfied when Ho Ho says Pete talked him out of talking to Ogilvy and Pete himself gets a presumably stealth snarky line about his this is the kind of investment his dead (broke) father would have loved. The day after looking at his own father's picture Don's much more okay about "billing it to the kid." Hmm, I never thought the Gene story primed Don to react sensitively to Ho Ho. Why do you feel that way? I thought that Don's defense of Ho Ho fell into this category of business practices that repulse Don like throwing over good clients just to compete for a bigger one or firing long-time employees over stuff like drunkenness. And Don would try to do the same even if Gene wasn't in his house. I could be wrong but I thought Don had given up on trying to save Ho Ho from himself at the restaurant. At first, Don thought he was really standing up for a moral principle by defending Ho Ho. But then, Ho Ho's dad made a really compelling and completely definitive case of why he doesn't want his son rescued from his folly. I think it went a long way to convincing Don of the cool, clean, admirable logic of "kill or be killed, eat or be eaten." If the kid's own father doesn't want the money that the father made himself preserved, what are they fighting for? IMO, that was Don's attitude going into the restaurant when he was there to sell and plying Ho Ho with flattery, even though he still had left over reservations. However then, Ho Ho's clear love of his father and innocent optimism that he just wants to make his dad proud by giving him a team did endear him to Don in this big burst to the point that Don actually really went out on a huge limb to try to kill this account. IMO, Don has perennial guilt over all roles that he plays in a family- including his role as a son. It's classic survivor's guilt after his mother died having him and his father died in front of him when they were the only two people in the barn (which we learn this season). Add that to (also in this season), Archie's voice telling him that he's worthless. Ho Ho may be a silly man but he displayed this huge virtue of being a loving son who desperately wanted to please his father and Don wanted to help save that. In the cycle of fathers and sons, Don plays a fatherly role in encouraging Ho Ho- "But I think you should reevaluate this particular obsession. You can do better" to teach Ho Ho and instill Ho Ho with confidence even though there's been no sign of Ho Ho being able to do better. However then Ho Ho was totally resistant to Don's paternal attempts to save his fortune and even more his business years ahead of him and to gently teach him and instead, acted like he already knew everything and there was no need to teach him. At the restaurant, I see Don just giving up at this point in the sense of "Why take a paternal attitude with this guy when he acts like he's beyond that even though he's not?." It's hard to judge because Don seems so unfireable (except for the end of S6/7.0)- but this is one of the moments where it's like Don is practically courting that to kill this account even after they went through this whole big exercise of calling Ho Ho's father to make sure they're quadruple sure that it's OK with everyone and even when Ho Ho's father gave his blessing all the while Don isn't a partner owning his company but a PPL employee. I'm not sure how much of it was Don not being touch with his job safety or Don courting being fired from PPL or Don really trusting that Pete wouldn't narc on him this time after everything they've been through. Within my reading, it's a little hard to say the significance of Don looking at his father's picture. I think it's one of two things. First, maybe it strengthened Don's resolve to treat Ho Ho like he's surrendered paternal concern as Don strides in the next day ("Bill it to the kid.) because he certainly got more than his helping of Bert's childhood model of "Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten." It's a very true fact in life and this series that people who were raised in that philosophy frequently raise it up to a guiding philosophy of their own adult life and suddenly make it a moral principle to actually be an asshole to people lower on the scale as a way of "instruction" in order to justify their own difficult childhoods/young adulthoods. To a great extent, Bert, Lane, and Pete were all doing that with Ho Ho. Don was a little more resistant- but he can feel this as well. However, I think more likely that Don was sort of longing for a better way to deal with the situation but doesn't know how (which I think is a theme in this ep, especially with Don/Sally at the end of the ep). IMO, Don was mostly convinced by Horace's speech and Ho Ho's arrogance and the impossibility of changing anyone's mind that SC should fleece Ho Ho. However, it's *mostly*. It's still very uncomfortable and dirty to the viewer that SC is doing this to Ho Ho, and I think to Don as well. His OTT bravado the next day is something of a cover. IMO, Don is morally disappointed with his world in the 1960s. He transformed himself and clawed his way up to the upper crust, believing that it would deliver him to a kinder, morally better, happier world and in turn, make him that way. It's a huge blow to Don to basically see high falutin' versions of his childhood in his One Percenter world. "During the Depression, I saw somebody throw a loaf of bread off the back of a truck. It was more dignified." So, I think he's left with this discomfort that there has to be a better way of handling the situation but it's not coming to him what with Horace logically justifying it, Ho Ho undermining sympathy, and no logical path forward to end the sing-up all contrasted to the selfish incentive to get that client. Basically, at this point, Don is just totally confused on what's the true right thing here. He picks up the picture of his dad blaming him in his mind for not teaching his kid how to handle life and problems well, starting with not even modelling a halfway healthy father/son relationship so that Don has some reasonable measuring stick to Ho Ho/Horace. Quote Peggy's family's a nice counterpoint to the father/son stuff. A lot of people really don't like her mother for that "you'll get raped" line but they come across to me like a family that has problems but really isn't toxic at all. Plus let's face it, a lot of the men on this show long for a mother who would be upset at them for moving to another borough. I like how by the time Peggy's leaving (with a pep talk from a now supportive Anita) her mom's watching the TV she claimed she wanted to take back. Peggy can't really lose her mother's love any more than Don could have won his. I guess that also makes it fit that Bobby's own moments with Gene area full of conflict and doubt. I was pretty much with Anita that Katherine's most objectionable line was "Why should I believe anything you say?" The rape line stands out in its ugliness but in that moment, I think Katherine was mainly describing her fear of Manhattan and it's crime. Yes, I think she was also implying that Peggy's too irresponsible and loose to take care of herself and that's a slut-shamey line. However, this particular tac was the "Boo NYC" tac. Katherine thinks Peggy is dishonest (which has a basis in reality but it's pretty undermined by how Katherine wants dishonesty for certain things and honesty for others just to suit Katherine like saying it'd be better if Peggy lied about moving in with Abe) and Katherine slut-shames Peggy constantly out loud and I'm sure even more in her own head, but Katherine's not the type of parent who believes that Peggy deserves misery for those "faults."\ Quote This is the second ep where Peggy takes Joan's lines for her own while she tries out that side of her personality. Go Peggy! It's also great watching her face when she hears the Patio guys proving her right. And Don's proud of her for it. (I guess that's also a little parallel to Pete's look about talking Ho Ho out of Ogilvy and Mather--they're both developing professionally.) Hmm, I think I disagree there. First, I don't think Peggy was really proved right (even though I get that SHE thinks she was proved right.) To get it all out there, I'm a big fan of musicals and Bye Bye Birdie is a favorite of mine. I watched the movie as a child. As a little girl, I thought Kim Macafee was totally aspirational and I'd do the blue-screen Bye Birdie dance in front of my mirror much like Peggy in Love in the Ruins. I was an odd child BUT STILL. Peggy's whole argument was that Kim Macafee as played by Ann Margaret was this annoying shrilled-voiced, fake annoying character who could only appeal to men and not women, and thus, had no place as a template in an ad to sell diet soda to women. I didn't see the Patio execs accept that argument. Instead, they rejected the ad because ACTUALLY you need a once-in-a-generation talent like Ann Margaret to sell that strange, intense number and the actress in this commercial wasn't Ann Margaret. Ann Margaret's rendition of Bye Bye Birdie has survived as an enduring classic movie and song to male and female audiences alike past the 1960s. Contrary to Peggy's argument, the movie doesn't exist as just this stupid way to titillate men. So really, the Patio execs were saying that it was a failure of casting. Now you could say, that the "It's not Ann Margaret" complaint goes to show that the concept was flawed itself in the sense that they weren't going to find Ann Margaret 2.0 to hawk soda or even more, that changing the lyrics to hawking diet soda removes the Ann Margaret cinematic magic. An actress can't stretch her wings as Ann Margaret did to tell a story through her first and last song of the movie moving from naivette to sarcasm, girlishness to womanliness in the same package, softness to hardness when it's not a movie but instead a commercial. That would make sense and it'd be in line with the Patio execs sentiments. Or you could say that it was a failure of casting which it appears PEGGY LED and Peggy took her bias that Ann Margaret has an unpleasant, shrill voice and she's a ridiculous personality to go ahead and look for the actress with the shrillest voice imaginable and a totally off-putting demeanor because Peggy may have wanted the ad to fail or she just came in with these preconceived ideas about how the Patio execs and the men she was working with had shit taste in movies and actresses. I actually think it's a little of both. It was highly unlikely that they'd replicate Bye Bye Birdie/Ann Margaret but I also think that Peggy made the ad worse than it could have been in her casting choice. (As opposed to Sal who kind of proves my point. He's not attracted to women- but he does seem to authentically love the movie and her performance like hetero-girl me. He was invested in the project and actually, did his directing job perfectly in matching the commercial to the movie.) (But yet, I actually liked the commercial. A lot. LOL. I thought it was hilarious and catchy and I actually got it stuck in my head. I can just imagine how much it'd get stuck in my head in 1963. The ad wasn't the sexy, straight-forwardly adorable piece that the men wanted because the actress was really shrill but IMO, she was shrill in a Flo from Progressive sort of way that sticks in your head and you end up sort of liking on the twentieth time even thought it pissed you off on the first time.) Second, I didn't necessarily see pride in Don's eyes. He had a pretty deliberate poker face to Peggy fishing with her eyes for a YOU WERE RIGHT, PEGGY YOU GENIUS. Maybe Don felt as I did. However, I don't think he was particularly invested in this battle with Peggy. Peggy was highly invested because she was taking the whole Ann Margaret thing very personally, she was the main creative on this project, she went out on a limb with her own opinions from the guys. She really, REALLY cared. IMO, Don was pretty arms length from this project. I don't exactly know why- Don was pretty work-focused in S3 and the Patio execs didn't offend him and he bashed the name, but not the product. However every time that something related to this project came up to Don, he didn't seem invested at all. Maybe he didn't buy Ken's pipe dream that this was the entree to Pepsi. I think it's entirely possible that Don didn't entirely get why Peggy was so aggressively fishing for a reaction from him with her eyes and just decided to look neutral and avoid whatever discussion she was angling for because it didn't look like a fun one for him to have. LOL. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie July 24, 2016 Share July 24, 2016 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: Hmm, I never thought the Gene story primed Don to react sensitively to Ho Ho. Why do you feel that way? I thought that Don's defense of Ho Ho fell into this category of business practices that repulse Don like throwing over good clients just to compete for a bigger one or firing long-time employees over stuff like drunkenness. And Don would try to do the same even if Gene wasn't in his house. That’s how I originally read it too. It’s never been part of Don’s character to get off on going after the weak. He wouldn’t need anything extra to make him feel any distaste about this kid’s situation. But watching it this time I thought well, it’s part of this episode where the other stuff has Don reacting to Gene, and Ho Ho having that monologue that makes it so painfully clear he wants to impress his father who disapproves of him, and then Don himself looks at the picture of his own father, that I thought there is a connection of some kind. Because in Ho Ho’s case it’s not just a business practice that’s below him, or a way for Don to stand in Pete’s way (he doesn’t seem motivated by that at all), but this father/son thing with Don present for all the scenes focusing on that. With the Gene and Archie scenes also in the episode. It could be just two storylines that happen to be in the same episode—Gene’s dying in this ep, after all. But I felt like they probably did comment on each other in some way—just not in any really straightforward way. Like it’s not like Don feels shamed by Gene and then identifies with Ho Ho. I didn’t see that going on. It seemed more nebulous. Because in another context Don might have been in another mindframe with Ho Ho. He could see him as the rich kid who had everything and enjoy helping to teach him the lesson his father wants him to learn. Instead, as you said, he’s moved by his rich boy vulnerability. And to identify with Ho Ho as a son who wants approval. In the home part of the ep he’s got Gene obviously disapproving of him as a son-in-law and also Gene telling Bobby war and killing makes a man of you, a message Don doesn’t want Bobby getting either, and then in the end it does drive him to think about his own father. So basically my thinking is that even if the one thing isn’t directly influencing the other (as in: Don is hurt by Gene’s disapproval, which reminds him of his father, and therefore feels sensitive about Ho Ho), they are meant to be mixed up in a general theme of father/son approval that uses Gene a lot and puts Don in a lot of different scenes where he’s having complex reactions to things. His reactions to the Ho Ho situation change and evolve from scene to scene where everyone else’s are more detached and neutral—even Pete who has so much in common with the guy. (Which also lays some interesting groundwork for Connie Hilton’s overbearing presence later, and Don’s contrasting relationship with Suzanne the child-friendly teacher with curly hair.) Link to comment
sistermagpie July 29, 2016 Share July 29, 2016 Rewatching The Fog... In the scene where Pete’s fretting over Admiral TV sales being flat Ken bursts in to laugh about Lois getting her scarf stuck in the copier and brag about his new watch from Birds Eye, showing he’s made himself beloved without seeming to be doing much while Pete’s the only person in the room worried about work at all. That kind of sets up Don’s vision of the two vs. Lane’s. it’s not that Ken doesn’t seem to be killing it since he brings in John Deere. But it seems like this is likely to be Ken at his best. Pete hasn’t hit yet, but when he does he’s actually going to be better at it because of the way he’s working at it and learning. Of course, it’s also ironic to think of how Lane was introduced nickel and diming expense accounts when he himself is going to embezzle thousands. Totally not hard to understand how the same person can do both, though. He probably spends a lot of his time thinking of himself as the one who plays by the rules while everyone else gets to do what they want and it’s not fair so he’s justified. LOL! I forgot that Duck calls Pete as Uncle Herman and Pete, it turns out, actually has an Uncle Herman who’s married to Aunt Alice. Anybody could have an Uncle Herman but with Pete you can’t help but picture the guy. It doesn’t seem fake when Duck tells Pete and Peggy what they’re not getting at SC and then immediately they both experience it in ways that make them think of Duck---Peggy’s passed over for the raise she asks for by Don who seems to have everything (and so much of it) and Pete’s thinking outside the box gets him in major trouble. I like, too, how Peggy even talks about never getting anything new as a kid because she was the youngest so she’s giving Gene clothing. (Also the mention that she was left out of the joint gift.) Duck earns a place in this world despite often being a mess. I love that scene with Pete and Hollis, btw. Some people compare it to the scene with Don and the busboy in the pilot and just say Pete’s the one who can’t talk to black people, but the two scenes are completely different with totally different things going on—and a tiny nod to the changing race dynamics. We get so few black characters on the show it’s really interesting how Hollis obviously has MANY opinions about MANY things that he comes pretty close to voicing with Pete, who’s basically ready for it. Suzanne is easily one of my least favorite if not very least favorite mistresses. This phone call makes me want to pull that damn bra strap of hers and snap it like a rubber band or something. I remember being so irritated with her whole weird pursuit of Don—at least to me it seems like she’s blatantly pursuing him, only to take this whole “Stop pursuing me!” pose even before he shows definite interest. Maybe in her way she’s like Megan in that both of them are a bit like Don, jumping into fantasy relationships really quickly. In the school meeting she says she doesn’t know if Don can understand what it’s like losing someone at Sally’s age and Don has one of his honest moments where he says yes, he does. Then later she calls, drink in hand and shirt unbuttoned to gush about how she lost her father at 8 and that’s why she was inappropriate in the meeting...even though neither Don nor Betty ever intimated that she was inappropriate. Really she’s just using her apology as an excuse to be even more inappropriate. And then Don lies about it, because as much as I’d like to think he just didn’t think it was important enough to mention with Betty going into labor, this affair’s already happening. Watching Betty struggling and saying Don’s “never where you expect him to be” and asking if the nurse has been with him is really interesting given her final scenes where she tells Don that him not being there is part of normal and she’s taking in comfort in that then. Dream sequences can be really self-indulgent—people have criticized the appearance of Medgar Evers showing up to symbolize a white lady wanting to speak up, but it does make sense to me he’s there given that Suzanne said Sally was asking about him in connection to Gene’s death. (Also interesting that he appears in the ep with the Admiral TV story.) Betty’s father pretends he doesn’t know her and is hiding from her—Betty had thought she saw him as a janitor in the hallway before she was drugged much as Don will think he sees Adam in The Phantom. She asks if she’s dying and he says “Ask your mother” who tells Betty to shut up and be happy with her life, advice her father backs up. (“Ask your mother” not only seems to say something about how Gene let the mother control her but is now a bit ominous given that Betty will die like her mother quite soon.) Love the ending where Betty goes to take care of the baby (while Don’s asleep) and pauses before deciding to go forward. Miss Farrell really hangs over the whole ep. I would have remembered her as being introduced more gradually but in this one ep we’ve got the parent/teacher meeting, the phone call and Sally’s mention of her about the eggs. Sally and Don both seem to warm to Miss Farrell and bond with her while Betty seems totally outside of that—despite Betty being the person who just lost a parent and being very childlike herself. If Betty’s a child she’s often the lonely child, like Glen, in this early seasons. She even seems to follow her mother’s advice in this ep. If you think about Don’s mistresses all representing something else for him, the two of them sort of connect with references to childhood and they’ll continue to do that, hiding out in her little cottage. Don confesses that yes, he lost an important person in his life as a child and Suzanne calls him up and tells him her dad died at that age. (There’s also, iirc, the reference to babies killing their mothers, isn’t there? Which applies to Don.) For all Suzanne brings Sally’s behavior to their attention it’s Don and she who end up giving attention to each other. Guy Walks into an Advertising Agency Best title ever. Lots of transitions in this ep: Don and Roger make up, PP&L move everyone around, Greg fails to get his chief residency, Joan leaves her job and can’t get it back. Conrad Hilton wants to hire Don. Guy’s career comes to an end. Harry clapping at the announcement that no one except Lane will be losing their job is great. Also him not realizing just how well things went for him and pretty much no one else. I’ve always been a defender of Richard, Joan’s 7th season boyfriend. I didn’t particularly like him but I thought he treated Joan pretty well, save for that tantrum. Mostly I felt like Richard, in breaking up with Joan, did what many other characters did for the main cast at the end, which was to tell them the reality they were missing. Like they were stuck in their old patterns and needed somebody else to tell them the person they’d actually become. I think of it now because Richard says to Joan that what’s wrong in their relationship will always be wrong, and that’s totally true of Greg. He rapes her because he can’t stand ever feeling she’s more competent than he is. Naturally he can’t take any support from her after not getting the residency and worse, being told that he hasn’t got what it takes to be a surgeon. Greg’s whole time on the show is a guy trying to feel like a man. The only reason he wound up with Joan was probably that she was grabbing at a husband and made it happen. The rape’s just one of the worst things he does in a pattern. No caviar and children for Joan...well, until she gets them for herself, that is. I like how Betty looks like someone who just had a baby, despite staying so thin during the pregnancy. “One more promotion and we’re going to be answering phones.” Roger’s not being on the chart is also echoed later in Pete not having a chair at the meeting after the merger. Love the guy washing the office window as they discuss the aftermath of the accident. The two times on the show I think they do some really cool foreshadowing—first is here with Joan’s bloody dress which just can’t not remind you of Jackie Kennedy without there being any direct connection between Joan and Jackie. The other is in S6 when Don visits Megan at her California home and she tells him the coyotes aren’t really as close as they sound because the sound is weird out there—echoing the first line of Helter Skelter. Both things totally organically reference some coming important 60s horror of which the characters are unaware without doing more than that. In this ep the whole thing could almost be a play of what’s coming—handsome, charismatic guy takes over with big plans and then it all gets derailed in a bloody way. I also hadn’t realized that it’s in the same episode where Greg’s shortcomings as a doctor come out that Joan has people rightly praising her for saving Guy’s life. She’s even better at that-and she’ll probably not tell Greg that part. Don’s accidentally terrorizing Sally is pretty great too. If I were her I’d be telling the story my whole life. “And then I woke up in the middle of the night and she was SITTING ON THE DRESSER STARING AT ME!!!” Don’s speech about Gene is really sweet, but also funny given the way Gene develops. We still don’t know who he’s going to be. It almost seems...no one. It’s amazing to me that this late in the season you’d never guess that Betty and Don are going to be done by the end. Don hasn’t started seeing Suzanne yet, Betty hasn’t started thinking about Henry etc. But looking back it’s easy to see this whole period as them fooling themselves. That said, “He’ll never golf again.” 1 Link to comment
Melancholy July 30, 2016 Share July 30, 2016 On July 28, 2016 at 11:39 PM, sistermagpie said: On July 28, 2016 at 11:39 PM, sistermagpie said: It doesn’t seem fake when Duck tells Pete and Peggy what they’re not getting at SC and then immediately they both experience it in ways that make them think of Duck---Peggy’s passed over for the raise she asks for by Don who seems to have everything (and so much of it) and Pete’s thinking outside the box gets him in major trouble. I like, too, how Peggy even talks about never getting anything new as a kid because she was the youngest so she’s giving Gene clothing. (Also the mention that she was left out of the joint gift.) Duck earns a place in this world despite often being a mess. Yes, it's very subtly done. I do think that the fake part was the Duck/Grey could deliver this perfect career for Accounts and Creatives. However, Duck knew what Pete and Peggy were longing for. Duck's particularly sharp on Pete because it's easier to infer that any Creative will want prestigious accounts and money but Duck had to really know Pete to know that he'd want to be treated a little like a Creative. But I do think that Duck was over-promising about what Grey could do for them and even probably Duck's hiring power and power to determine their salaries and positions at Grey. Duck wasn't off the wagon but there's a disconcerting dry drunk desperation to how Duck approaches them like he NEEDS them or something which I think Pete picks up but Peggy doesn't. Quote Suzanne is easily one of my least favorite if not very least favorite mistresses. This phone call makes me want to pull that damn bra strap of hers and snap it like a rubber band or something. I remember being so irritated with her whole weird pursuit of Don—at least to me it seems like she’s blatantly pursuing him, only to take this whole “Stop pursuing me!” pose even before he shows definite interest. Maybe in her way she’s like Megan in that both of them are a bit like Don, jumping into fantasy relationships really quickly. In the school meeting she says she doesn’t know if Don can understand what it’s like losing someone at Sally’s age and Don has one of his honest moments where he says yes, he does. Then later she calls, drink in hand and shirt unbuttoned to gush about how she lost her father at 8 and that’s why she was inappropriate in the meeting...even though neither Don nor Betty ever intimated that she was inappropriate. Really she’s just using her apology as an excuse to be even more inappropriate. And then Don lies about it, because as much as I’d like to think he just didn’t think it was important enough to mention with Betty going into labor, this affair’s already happening. I do like Suzanne, even though I agree that she's somewhat like Megan (who I thought was interesting but she was pretty notable in being like the only character from the main cast that I didn't warm to or sympathize with as person at all). Suzanne is a mess but I felt like I got enough glimpses at her home life to contribute to this- epileptic brother who she feels responsible for because probably their parents are dead, father who died when she was a child, living as a single woman in Ossining among rich spouses with, IMO, something of a hamstrung social life because she has to make a train commute to Manhattan. I always feel like Suzanne hit some critical mass of sadness with her life right when Don showed up as this super-attractive guy who could get her issues where no one else can and she got desperate. So while I think the aesthetics of Suzanne and Megan's approaches are a little similar, I think Suzanne was genuine/emotional and Megan was calculated/fake. Despite the "bunny-boiler" comments from fandom, Suzanne gives off the vibe that her affair with Don was very outside the norm for her and it was just an unusually dark decision. The drunken phone call was a very klutzy attempt at flirting, much like her other attempts. Quote Dream sequences can be really self-indulgent—people have criticized the appearance of Medgar Evers showing up to symbolize a white lady wanting to speak up, but it does make sense to me he’s there given that Suzanne said Sally was asking about him in connection to Gene’s death. (Also interesting that he appears in the ep with the Admiral TV story.) I really love Betty's dream sequence. The music is incredible. I just listen to it from time to time. Oddly, I think it's just odd and OOC enough for Betty Draper's subconscious, OF ANYONE'S SUBCONSCIOUS, to pick Medgar Evers as a symbolization of her issues that it vitiates any clarity that this is racially inappropriate. If that makes sense. Betty's subconscious picked Evers because the story was stuck in her head, not because Betty is one of those privileged white women who polish their Good Person Badge by adopting black struggles as theirs (a little like Peggy with Dawn in Mystery Date- a conversation that I *did* find racially insensitive). Betty is proudly distant from the black experience, undermining any faux (but actually offensive)-virtue in Betty picking Evers for her dream sequence. Betty's inability to speak up is sympathetic but I think the dream is aware that she's a "silly woman" (even though she's unfairly treated as sillier than she is and her repressed life made her silly) and that's Ever's role as well as "I left my lunchbox on the bus...and I'm having a baby" and Betty admiring the caterpillar and then, killing it with her hand. Quote It’s amazing to me that this late in the season you’d never guess that Betty and Don are going to be done by the end. Don hasn’t started seeing Suzanne yet, Betty hasn’t started thinking about Henry etc. But looking back it’s easy to see this whole period as them fooling themselves I really think it's appropriate that I never expected Betty and Don to actually divorce right up until the end of Shut the Door, Have a Seat while I was waiting for Megan and Don to divorce from the minute that he proposed. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 5, 2016 Share August 5, 2016 On 7/30/2016 at 10:28 AM, Melancholy said: But I do think that Duck was over-promising about what Grey could do for them and even probably Duck's hiring power and power to determine their salaries and positions at Grey. Duck wasn't off the wagon but there's a disconcerting dry drunk desperation to how Duck approaches them like he NEEDS them or something which I think Pete picks up but Peggy doesn't. I agree—Duck’s exaggerating what he can offer, and also it makes sense that Pete would pick up on that in ways Peggy wouldn’t. That’s something that’s pretty consistent with Peggy, probably in part because she was the only woman in the copywriting department and started as a secretary. She’s overlooked so much she jumps at anyone giving her attention—and her career even started because some guy suddenly gave her attention. Sometimes she oversteps, thinking she’s being overlooked when she isn’t (the famous “that’s what the money is for” line, imo), other times she’s worried about not trusting attention when she gets it. Pete, as a guy, and a privileged one at that, not to mention someone who works in accounts, would have a lot more experience in this sort of thing. On 7/30/2016 at 10:28 AM, Melancholy said: I really think it's appropriate that I never expected Betty and Don to actually divorce right up until the end of Shut the Door, Have a Seat while I was waiting for Megan and Don to divorce from the minute that he proposed. I never thought about it before but yes, that was exactly my feeling too. I was actually disappointed when Don and Betty split up because I thought it would be interesting seeing their relationship evolve in response to what had happened in the past. There’s many ways people could look at early Betty and think she’s a bad wife for Don because she’s so clueless and trusting to start with, but I still feel like the two of them have a better connection as two people than Don and Megan ever did. Like many people took it as a great step when we learned Don had told Megan about his past and I think Don meant it to be that, wanted to be more honest. But Megan just offered unconditional forgiveness without really much caring one way or the other. That kind of forgiveness didn’t really come with much understanding, imo. She didn’t get how serious the whole thing was, she just said “Well, I like who you are now so who cares about your past?” One of the things that makes Don seem to me in such a better place as the series goes on is that he’s surrounded by people who cared about him letting them down or cared about his past but worked through it with him because they thought he was worth it anyway—Roger, Peggy, Pete, Sally and especially Betty. By the end of the show Betty really seems to get Don and let go of a lot of things. I guess we could imagine Megan getting to a place like that eventually after the show’s over, but she really doesn’t seem poised to do that the way Betty was. One thing I also definitely agree with about Suzanne is I do think she’s being honest throughout the relationship. I never understood the Bunny Boiler stuff because she always seemed honest about being ready to let Don go if that’s what he wanted. She didn’t seem clingy and desperate. She was never really pretending to be anything she wasn’t. Her issues weren't about that. In fact, re-watching the next ep I wonder if the reason she goes off on that whole "you're all alike" speech to Don is that in her head the two of them were hurt children together and bonded over that and now here he is with all these suburban dads and not seeming very different from them at all. Megan in a way just gets more and more into pretending she’s somebody she isn’t, especially once she gets to California. There she seems to sometimes be pretending to be a starving artist when she’s really a rich woman while at the same time pretending to be a working actor while really being unemployed. Rewatching 7-23, I was totally fooled by the way this ep starts with a flashforward. I thought I’d skipped episodes. Connie immediately calls out Don’s lack of family on the desk, kind of echoing Gene, but also Don’s not being connected enough to people. Nice power play sitting in Don’s chair, there. What’s great is that Hilton is saying Don ought to be more tied to family while proceeding to show him just how terrible it is to be tied to family with all his demands. There still is something bizarre about Henry so obviously dealing with Betty as if she’s somebody he wants to date when she’s married. Obviously everybody on the show has affairs, but it still seems off with Henry. But I guess they’d never get together otherwise. Also really nice touch with Betty automatically trying Don’s locked door as she gets off the phone. That’s some obvious symbolism that still works. Love the Peggy/Pete conversation. Totally different from her later office convo partner, Stan, but I love them being somehow like work siblings. One of my favorite moments is when Pete says Hilton looks like a cowboy and then says “He has a book?” since Peggy mentioned it. They’re both giving each other information in the scene that comes from their different backgrounds. They both asked to be put on Hilton--Peggy just had worse timing than Pete. “So much changes, so much doesn’t.” Henry sums up Mad Men in one line. “You stare at the sun every day?” is also one of the all-time great lines. Don says Sally has a crush on Suzanne. Did people really say that back then? Not “have a crush” but say someone has a crush on someone of the same sex? Interesting that Carlton talks about running, how Suzanne runs and how he likes it because he gets to be alone. It’s like the tiniest call back to Helen Bishop’s walk. Another weird little moment...Carlton asks what bad will really happen if they look at the eclipse. Betty does look at the eclipse before Henry covers her eyes. She then feels something—dizzy, and he tells her to take a deep breath. I have no clear meaning to assign to any of this, but it makes me think of Betty’s fate. Then Don, too, looks at the eclipse. They're both ready to just risk it. The Duck story’s interesting the way it reflects Don’s relationship with both Pete and Peggy, the way they both want his approval and what they do when they don’t get it. Pete tells Peggy that Duck’s after them to get to Don, then Don’s an asshole to her so she goes to him and sleeps with him. I wouldn’t say that was just about Don, but Don’s elusiveness is causing conflict with everybody in this ep. Everybody except, maybe, Pete—who is the person who knows the secret. (And Bert, of course, who also knows it and uses it.) Eventually Don’s takes the hobo thing too far and gets knocked out. The fainting couch really is dreadful. It looks like somebody’s extra furniture they stuck there until they come and get it. But I like that Betty’s basically screwing her “hearth”—the heart of the home—with a big Henry Francis symbol. She really wouldn’t have been so open to the idea in S1. Even when Don tells her he signed the contract as if his decision had something to do with her, it doesn’t seem to much affect her. And Don, who judges objects for a living, doesn’t comment on the ugly fainting couch. 4 Link to comment
qtpye August 5, 2016 Share August 5, 2016 9 hours ago, sistermagpie said: On 7/30/2016 at 10:28 AM, Melancholy said: I really think it's appropriate that I never expected Betty and Don to actually divorce right up until the end of Shut the Door, Have a Seat while I was waiting for Megan and Don to divorce from the minute that he proposed. I never thought about it before but yes, that was exactly my feeling too. I was actually disappointed when Don and Betty split up because I thought it would be interesting seeing their relationship evolve in response to what had happened in the past. There’s many ways people could look at early Betty and think she’s a bad wife for Don because she’s so clueless and trusting to start with, but I still feel like the two of them have a better connection as two people than Don and Megan ever did. 9 hours ago, sistermagpie said: Megan in a way just gets more and more into pretending she’s somebody she isn’t, especially once she gets to California. There she seems to sometimes be pretending to be a starving artist when she’s really a rich woman while at the same time pretending to be a working actor while really being unemployed. I agree. As other people pointed out, Don had nothing when Betty married him. He was a fur sales man with no "people". Betty must have been really in love with him. I am sure she could have had her pick of men, being a great beauty from a good school and family, but she chose Don. He is the one who lied to her from the beginning. When Megan saw him, she just saw a handsome, rich, and powerful man. She never saw him for who he, which is ironic since Don revealed the Dick Whitman secret to her from the start. I think if Megan has a talent is is knowing how to please people on a superficial level. She has little awareness of who she is as a person. Don was attracted to the fact she seemed so easy going and kind, plus he thought he could mold her into his dream wife (beautiful, kind, loves advertising etc.) 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 5, 2016 Share August 5, 2016 1 hour ago, qtpye said: I think if Megan has a talent is is knowing how to please people on a superficial level. She has little awareness of who she is as a person. Don was attracted to the fact she seemed so easy going and kind, plus he thought he could mold her into his dream wife (beautiful, kind, loves advertising etc.) Yeah, it's really true. With her family background you can see why she's like that, but it also seems to be a big part of why she's pretty unsuited to acting. Whether or not she has talent, she really doesn't seem comfortable with rejection. Compare her with, for instance, Peggy in this ep. Don's pretty harsh with her, but when he says she's good and needs to get better she seems to be able to understand that in a practical way, something she can work with. Pete gets similar advice in a nicer way--keep working and improving and you'll get there. The important thing is they both find things within themselves that keep them going even when other people aren't giving them encouragement, something actors need desperately. Megan seems more all or nothing. She takes acting classes, of course--it's not that she thinks she's perfect and can't believe people reject her. But if they don't want her she doesn't know what to do. Maybe that's why I always go back to that scene where she's frustrated about how the director on the soap seems to be making it impossible for her by saying things she doesn't understand...but what he's saying is actually helpful. It's kind of unclear why Megan is so mystified, except that she does seem to kind of see things as either she's good or she's bad. It's also maybe why she doesn't quite get Don's thing about not wanting her success to come from him. For her success is success. She doesn't ever seem to have a good eye for her own performance. Which is kind of the way she eventually is with Don as well. First he's just good, whatever his past. Then he's a pathetic drunk. Which, again, is her talking in the heat of things without the time Betty had to process the break-up. But even when Don's explaining to her why he doesn't like birthday parties her pov is like, "Sure, you had terrible birthdays when you were a kid and nobody loved you, but you're loved now by me, so why would that apply?" Where as Betty might have been in denial about a lot of things about Don, but she did seem to be putting them together on some level to see him as a complex person. She is able to call him out very accurately at times. Like in 723 she has that great moment where he accuses her of making his contract negotiations "all about her" when they have "nothing to do with her" (?!). He explains that not having a contract means Don will always be wanted because nobody can have him. And Betty says, "Oh, you're right, Don. What could that possibly have to do with me?" 2 Link to comment
Melancholy August 5, 2016 Share August 5, 2016 (edited) On 7/24/2016 at 0:24 AM, sistermagpie said: I was actually disappointed when Don and Betty split up because I thought it would be interesting seeing their relationship evolve in response to what had happened in the past. There’s many ways people could look at early Betty and think she’s a bad wife for Don because she’s so clueless and trusting to start with, but I still feel like the two of them have a better connection as two people than Don and Megan ever did. However, the trick in Betty is that she wasn't "clueless". She forced herself to ignore the evidence of Don's affairs and spotty past, at great cost to herself (the trembling hands) but she was absolutely sharp and could reel off a list of clues that she took note of on Don's infidelity. Betty really just couldn't win. She forced herself to override her good sense on Don's problems because she was so in love with him that she was determined to not see any bad, even though she's clearly a very observant woman. It's different than Megan cynically marrying Don, despite his open and obvious problems, kind of expecting him to cheat on her by Mystery Date i.e. very early into their marriage. Megan wasn't really in love with Don but instead using him so of course, Megan could rack up suspicions at the outset of their marriage that Betty's love-goggles inhibited. However, even though Megan expected/suspected infidelity, Megan wasn't observant enough to actually see the signs of Don/Sylvia as it was occurring under her own nose. Quote The Duck story’s interesting the way it reflects Don’s relationship with both Pete and Peggy, the way they both want his approval and what they do when they don’t get it. Pete tells Peggy that Duck’s after them to get to Don, then Don’s an asshole to her so she goes to him and sleeps with him. I wouldn’t say that was just about Don, but Don’s elusiveness is causing conflict with everybody in this ep. Everybody except, maybe, Pete—who is the person who knows the secret. (And Bert, of course, who also knows it and uses it.) Eventually Don’s takes the hobo thing too far and gets knocked out. Although while evidently Peggy/Duck wasn't just about Don, it still surprises me that she kept sleeping with him for months. LOL. Because really, the whole emotional gravitas of their relationship comes from Don. I guess Mad Ave gossip could fill a lot of pillow talk and they didn't seem to go on dates so much as have sexual encounters so conversation must have been limited, but MAN, I almost can't picture pillow talk without some form of bitching about Don. Either both them of openly bitching about Don or more likely, Duck bitching about Don and fishing for gossip and Peggy having passive aggressive loyalty where she's clearly upset with Don and low-key grumbles/long suffering sighs but doesn't say anything more. I do think that Bert is bullshitting a lot in his last scene, even though his Sackajawea line is a GREAT one. In S1, half of SC's business came for Don but he wasn't partner. No less a rapacious capitalist than Lee Garner Sr. thought Roger and Bert were wrong to not have made Don partner by S1. The staff quite agreed. We saw that Don wasn't "brought in." Roger wouldn't even read his book or give him an interview- so Don conned his way into the job. Bert and Roger don't seem to know a lot about being a creative director and seemed actually completely divorced from the side of business that demands coming up with a presentation. Based on all objective factors, Don tricked his way into the job and then, found a way to make himself indispensable to the point that Roger and Bert were so out of control of the career of the guy who makes their agency and in some ways, so retired from their own agency that Conrad Hilton is shocked to discover that they don't have Don under contract and understandably refuses to do business that way. So, I call bullshit on Bert's "We nurtured you, brought you in, treated you like family." Don wouldn't have reached his heights if he didn't worm his way into SC's credible, white shoe agency so Bert/Roger did end up conferring credibility on Don even if they were originally tricked into and then, handsomely rewarded for it. However, Bert was certainly trying to make himself sound like a far more helpful, charitable, kind person in Don's life to feel like he was being righteous in blackmailing Don into signing away control of his professional life for three years. Basically, I think that Don should have signed the contract but only because I think he's being self-destructive in not taking on that additional protection/stability since he so clearly intends on working at SC indefinitely (and it comes full circle where he's ultimately protected by being under contract at the start of S7). However maybe it's an UO, but I think Roger and Bert's supposedly hurt feelings or moral outrage at Don not signing a contract are ridiculous. Make like Conrad Hilton and just call it a business practice to secure all talent- I can respect that. However, I disagree that Don owes Roger and Bert to sign away control of his professional life for three years on any of kind of moral or human level. I'm a little betwixt and betweened on Roger calling Betty about the contract. I'm for in in the sense that I think Betty should know about Don's big career dilemmas since it directly affects her life and Don fails as a husband by not telling her. However since I laugh at Roger's supposed moral/human claim to Don's life for the next three years, I think Roger was an ass to call Betty and try to stir up a fight at the Draper house to make Don sign the contact. Basically, Betty hits my sweet spot of an opinion by bashing on Roger for going behind Don's back and pressuring her into exerting influence and then, bashing on Don for not telling her anything about his professional life. #Imwithher To some extent, I don't think that Don defends himself enough (especially in the later seasons) and one classic example is Don accepting Roger's accusation that Don's S3 feud was hypocritical and ridiculous because it was all about marrying secretaries which they both did. Putting aside the differences in Roger/Jane and Don/Megan, Don was angry at Roger for other reasons. The fact that Roger married a twentysomething secretary actually seemed to be the very least of it. Don seemed more upset that Roger left Mona and Margaret (and tried to leave her with as little money possible) in a way that Mona blamed Don for it. The fact that Roger sold SC primarily to pay for the divorce. And then, Roger and Don were making up from that in the ep before but then, I would argue that Roger *did* betray a certain trust in throwing a tantrum over Don not signing the contract and then, trying to create friction between Don and Betty force a signature to the contract. I really get why Don didn't want to talk to Roger for months. Betty also wins my heart in how, as you said, she gives no fucks at Don's melodramatic "I signed it (subtext: for you- I'm such a martyr!)" sort of lie with Don's IMO intended subtext even though he doesn't outright say it. She's really had enough of Don's non-stop drama. Edited August 5, 2016 by Melancholy 3 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 5, 2016 Share August 5, 2016 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: Although while evidently Peggy/Duck wasn't just about Don, it still surprises me that she kept sleeping with him for months. LOL. Because really, the whole emotional gravitas of their relationship comes from Don. God, the more you think about it the more a bad idea it is for Peggy--but it fits right in with her pattern of bad ideas. It's not completely different, even, then Ted who's the anti-Don in her eyes. She can pretend she just fell in love with Ted because she got to know him and thought he was great but there's just no way you can be involved with Ted as Peggy and *not* be a pawn in the competition with Don. Peggy winds up with both the guys who set their sites on "winning" against Don and both of them lose because they're kind of weak. And really, the very fact that they get involved that way is a sign of that. Don never tries to steal anybody from anyone--it's not his style. Pete even just laid it right out to her before she did it--even saying that he got Cuban cigars (though he doesn't smoke) and now he figures they're not so hard to come by. Duck then, iirc, mentions that Grey has Hermes, so the scarf isn't so hard to come by either. (Plus I'm totally suspicious of his having meetings in hotel rooms.) 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: It's different than Megan cynically marrying Don, despite his open and obvious problems, kind of expecting him to cheat on her by Mystery Date i.e. very early into their marriage. Megan wasn't really in love with Don but instead using him so of course, Megan could rack up suspicions at the outset of their marriage that Betty's love-goggles inhibited. However, even though Megan expected/suspected infidelity, Megan wasn't observant enough to actually see the signs of Don/Sylvia as it was occurring under her own nose. Yes, it seems like Megan goes into the relationship with a more Bohemian, 60s idea about sex--after all, she sleeps with Don while he's with Faye claiming she won't expect anything else out of it, and she knows about him and Alison etc. She's presenting herself as the sophisticated, independent girl who can separate sex from love. But, as you say, it's not like she's actually wise to Don and Sylvia, which would absolutely have hurt her feelings. Nor does she seem to really get Don's issues the way Betty does. She's just, it seems, generally disappointed. While Betty, I agree, is actively repressing all her suspicions and real thoughts about Don because that's what she's been taught to do. There's no room in her worldview or the worldview of Ossining for open marriages even if she wanted one. She's just humiliated. When she does confront him with an affair she really gets to the heart of it too, saying she'd never do that to Don, why would he do it to her? I think in a nutshell that's more where the show falls on the whole idea of monogamy. It's not sex that's bad, it's treating someone you should care about with disrespect. Don's not ready to really face that back in S2 but his attempt to face it with Megan seems pretty false to me, like he's just putting on a show of white-knuckle fidelity that he eventually just throws off completely. He wants to be better, but he's doing it wrong and sort of dooms himself. 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: Bert was certainly trying to make himself sound like a far more helpful, charitable, kind person in Don's life to feel like he was being righteous in blackmailing Don into signing away control of his professional life for three years. Yeah, Bert's such a mafia-Don type in that whole scene. All that stuff about claiming they've treated Don so well is just a lead up to the real pitch, which is a threat to destroy him with his false identity. If Bert didn't have that to hold over Don's head Don could easily walk out and nobody would see him as having much betrayed SC since he was their superstar. Especially since there's very little indication that Don even had any particular mentor in the place like Peggy had in Don. And Roger's just totally sticking it to Don by causing trouble for him at home. There's no way he would automatically think Don was discussing any of this with Betty. 1 hour ago, Melancholy said: The fact that Roger married a twentysomething secretary actually seemed to be the very least of it. Right, there's just a lot of differences with their two situations and Roger *always* brings it up as if it's the same in ways it isn't. Don might have rolled his eyes at Roger being with a woman the same age as his daughter, but I honestly don't think that alone would have bothered him that much. It's not like Don wouldn't sleep with a woman who was 20. Really, Megan is a perfectly respectable choice from Don's pov. He's single(ish), she's single, so he's not leaving his wife for anybody. He sees her as a great stepmother, while Jane distances Roger from his daughter even more. Don's not causing the company any public embarrassment or money for marrying Megan. Megan fits in with the clients. When Don says Roger looks foolish rather than happy I don't think he's focusing on the age difference, even if that adds to it. I think Roger's really just doing a lot of projecting on that issue, still trying to prove to himself that he didn't just do something foolish. He really did make a decision that he very quickly had reason to regret. Don made a mistake, but marrying Megan was really not a mistake that blew up tons of other things in his life. If he regretted it it was probably because he felt guilty about letting Megan down. Roger says he did the same thing as Don, but Don really didn't do what Roger did on many levels. Watching this ep I was looking for signs of what, exactly, Betty saw in Henry besides the general acceptableness of him as a mate, but I don't think there really is anything. She likes being taken seriously about the water tanks, but Henry's not taking her all that seriously, exactly. Her marriage to Henry is really as big of a risk as the marriage to Don was in terms of really knowing the guy well, but I could see her thinking that was fine. I think it's more about her wanting to get out than this guy being obviously the one, at least at this point, however she comes to feel later. She just seems to be rebelling and taking more control in a lot of different ways in this ep, taking stock of her situation. Like I like how after she has the fight with Don about his contract he goes out to drive around, get stoned and beaten up. She pauses for a moment and then baby Gene starts crying so she has to go take care of him. She doesn't have the same options he does. 1 Link to comment
Melancholy August 5, 2016 Share August 5, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, sistermagpie said: God, the more you think about it the more a bad idea it is for Peggy--but it fits right in with her pattern of bad ideas. It's not completely different, even, then Ted who's the anti-Don in her eyes. She can pretend she just fell in love with Ted because she got to know him and thought he was great but there's just no way you can be involved with Ted as Peggy and *not* be a pawn in the competition with Don. Peggy winds up with both the guys who set their sites on "winning" against Don and both of them lose because they're kind of weak. And really, the very fact that they get involved that way is a sign of that. Don never tries to steal anybody from anyone--it's not his style. Pete even just laid it right out to her before she did it--even saying that he got Cuban cigars (though he doesn't smoke) and now he figures they're not so hard to come by. Duck then, iirc, mentions that Grey has Hermes, so the scarf isn't so hard to come by either. (Plus I'm totally suspicious of his having meetings in hotel rooms. Right. IMO, in the "Peggy is like Don" scheme, Peggy is looking for a father after her father so traumatizingly had a heart-attack in front of her like Don is looking for a mother. However, there's some divergence. One is that Don looks for different types of mother-figures everywhere while I think that Peggy somehow latched onto this idealized Don-at-his-best form for what she wants in a father boss/lover and made it a huge prototype for what she wants professionally/romantically and that drives her relationships with Don, Ted, Duck, how much she OTT spirals with Lou, her half condescension/half ultimate peace with Freddy, how the priest sort of seduces her by encouraging her copywriting but then alienates her by not truly accepting her so Peggy rejects that kind of Father who didn't give her what Don did when it came to her pregnancy. Stan is supposed to a rejection/evolution from that- although the writing could have been better on how Peggy grew out of that. Also even more than "You can't be involved with Ted and not be a pawn of Don v. Ted", I think that Peggy wanted Don and Ted to fight over her just as much as or maybe even more than they wanted to fight over her. So, she butts into most of their conflicts even when no one asked her too and get so pissy when Don and Ted are having their own conflict or having their own cooperation/detente that doesn't involve her somehow. I don't think it was a feature of how Peggy fell for Ted at CGC. There, I think it was just straight up romance crossed over with "Ted as the Anti-Don." However, IMO, the merger did goose the Ted/Peggy relationship but because it made Ted want to compete more directly with Don and for Peggy to have Don and Ted fight over her and make a more definitive anti-Don stand. Quote Yes, it seems like Megan goes into the relationship with a more Bohemian, 60s idea about sex--after all, she sleeps with Don while he's with Faye claiming she won't expect anything else out of it, and she knows about him and Alison etc. She's presenting herself as the sophisticated, independent girl who can separate sex from love. Yeah, as a pick-up tactic. When Megan's the single secretary trying to seduce Don into a serious personal/professional relationship, she's completely non-judgmental. It's the WOMEN that are ridiculous. "Let me be clear. I won't run out crying tomorrow. I just want you tonight." And Megan says that to dissuade Don from his "Megan, I can't afford to make any mistakes right now" white-knuckling away from the trouble that he knows his promiscuity courts. However, suddenly when she has the ring on her finger, she slut-shame lists all of his sexual encounters in S4 as "There's something wrong with *you*." I think it's very tactical that Megan knows that she plays one non-judgmental, easy role as the secretary trying to make herself totally appealing to start a relationship and a different strict, controlling role as the wife gathering her legal/societal protections to get the more structured, faithful, secure life that she really wants. As always with Megan, I echo Gail Holloway. "Don't tell me that girl's not conniving." Quote Yeah, Bert's such a mafia-Don type in that whole scene. All that stuff about claiming they've treated Don so well is just a lead up to the real pitch, which is a threat to destroy him with his false identity. If Bert didn't have that to hold over Don's head Don could easily walk out and nobody would see him as having much betrayed SC since he was their superstar. Especially since there's very little indication that Don even had any particular mentor in the place like Peggy had in Don. And Roger's just totally sticking it to Don by causing trouble for him at home. There's no way he would automatically think Don was discussing any of this with Betty. Yeah, Pete got SO MUCH hate for blackmailing Don in S1 but I feel like Bert walks off a lot more cleanly for practically doing the same thing because Bert had the cajones to somehow frame it as his moral right to Don's next three years of his professional life. In some ways, Pete's price of a promotion is less sinister than forcing Don to sign a three-year contract under duress since Pete was just asking for his own promotion instead of three-years of someone else's commitment. Although, Don staying at SC for another three years makes more sense than Pete becoming Head of Accounts so young and we know that Bert's blackmail did have a stopping point while Don was understandably worried that Pete would just hold it over his head forever if Don gave into the blackmail. I agree that Don didn't even have a mentor at SC like he was Peggy's mentor. (Note how even though Don was a mentor and actually really did bring Peggy in and nurtured her and treated her like family, she had every right to leave him whenever she felt like it and she had no obligation to "pay him back" with guaranteed years of labor because that's an oppressive way to look at employees. And it was oppressive when Don took the attitude of "You can't leave me- I made you!" when Peggy quit until he thought better of it. Wow- I'm getting really fired up against Bert.) I will say that Bert and Roger wanted to be mentors to Don by S1. However while I think that goal is real and has affection (particularly from Roger), it's all well and good to want to be a mentor to an already winning mentee, who's winning so much that he's not even a mentee anymore but just younger and in an employee-employer relationship to the point that he has to sit and listen to such pearls of wisdom as "Philanthropy is the gateway to power" and "When G-d closes a door, he opens a dress" and "The day that you sign a client is the day that you start losing them" even though Don wasn't exactly learning anything there. That was the situation in S1 between Don/Roger/Bert. The question is whether you take on being a mentor to someone who's not such an obvious winning bet and use some resources teaching, promoting, and taking a chance on them. Like Don did with Peggy and even Pete. That's the value of being a mentor- it's not in the fuzzy feeling of counting yourself indispensable to an employee who's already indispensable to you. I never got the impression that Bert/Roger did that with Don- except for ironically Roger going out to defend Don in S7 which seems more friendship than mentorship at that stage. (BTW, I felt similarly about Ted calling himself Peggy's "mentor", even though I thought Peggy knew more about advertising than him by S6.) Quote Watching this ep I was looking for signs of what, exactly, Betty saw in Henry besides the general acceptableness of him as a mate, but I don't think there really is anything. She likes being taken seriously about the water tanks, but Henry's not taking her all that seriously, exactly. Her marriage to Henry is really as big of a risk as the marriage to Don was in terms of really knowing the guy well, but I could see her thinking that was fine. I think it's more about her wanting to get out than this guy being obviously the one, at least at this point, however she comes to feel later. She just seems to be rebelling and taking more control in a lot of different ways in this ep, taking stock of her situation. Like I like how after she has the fight with Don about his contract he goes out to drive around, get stoned and beaten up. She pauses for a moment and then baby Gene starts crying so she has to go take care of him. She doesn't have the same options he does. Right. Henry really could have been a huge disaster. Very easily. However, Betty didn't have the same options to get out or to date around to find a compatible partner that Don squandered in S4. I agree that Henry wasn't really taking Betty seriously, and I don't think he ever really did. Henry wasn't modern or feminist. But Henry strictly stuck to the stated social contract that man was the ruler of the household and thus, had responsibilities to be keep the peace at home and be respectable and abide by the outer sexual conservatism of the period. As opposed to Dons or Rogers who mouthed the social contracts of the time and believed in applying the conservatism to their first wives, but interpreted that as the Ruler, it meant that they had the power but less of the responsibility. It's not great but I can understand Betty preferring the real social contract where she's subservient in exchange for security and respectability as opposed to the one-sided contract with Don where she's subservient but only gets surfacey appearances of the security and respectability that a husband is supposed to deliver but Don really didn't. I think Betty was leaning on how Henry Had People. A daughter who he was still close with, an elevated position in the Republican Party, evidently a mother who Betty didn't like but still clearly leaned on for child-rearing help and kept as a big part of their lives. Edited August 6, 2016 by Melancholy 2 Link to comment
qtpye August 8, 2016 Share August 8, 2016 On 8/5/2016 at 5:01 PM, sistermagpie said: While Betty, I agree, is actively repressing all her suspicions and real thoughts about Don because that's what she's been taught to do. There's no room in her worldview or the worldview of Ossining for open marriages even if she wanted one. She's just humiliated. When she does confront him with an affair she really gets to the heart of it too, saying she'd never do that to Don, why would he do it to her? I think in a nutshell that's more where the show falls on the whole idea of monogamy. It's not sex that's bad, it's treating someone you should care about with disrespect. Don's not ready to really face that back in S2 but his attempt to face it with Megan seems pretty false to me, like he's just putting on a show of white-knuckle fidelity that he eventually just throws off completely. He wants to be better, but he's doing it wrong and sort of dooms himself. Watching this ep I was looking for signs of what, exactly, Betty saw in Henry besides the general acceptableness of him as a mate, but I don't think there really is anything. She likes being taken seriously about the water tanks, but Henry's not taking her all that seriously, exactly. Her marriage to Henry is really as big of a risk as the marriage to Don was in terms of really knowing the guy well, but I could see her thinking that was fine. I think it's more about her wanting to get out than this guy being obviously the one, at least at this point, however she comes to feel later. She just seems to be rebelling and taking more control in a lot of different ways in this ep, taking stock of her situation. Like I like how after she has the fight with Don about his contract he goes out to drive around, get stoned and beaten up. She pauses for a moment and then baby Gene starts crying so she has to go take care of him. She doesn't have the same options he does. I think Betty is a very practical woman. She understands that even though she is a beautiful woman with the right schooling, a single woman with three kids is not going to fare well in this ageist sexist society. Henry was wealthy, handsome, and wanted to take care of her. He comes from good people and old money. It really was not a bad option for her. I thought Henry was sinister as first, but he really did love Betty. He even liked fat Betty, which meant his love was not superficial. Even though Betty would never love him like she loved Don, she also came into her own as a politician's lovely and cultured wife. It was the perfect role for her. She also had the strength with Henry's support, to later go back to school. Betty never really enjoyed being a mother trapped in suburbia and marrying Henry gave her more options in life. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 10, 2016 Share August 10, 2016 (edited) Re-watching souvenir : I like Pete’s little unexpected memory of New York in the summer when he was a kid and listened to horses going by outside the window. Horses! It never occurred to me, but this ep was probably somewhat important in terms of Joan and Pete’s views of each other because neither of them tell on each other. Of course, both have something on each other so have good reason to keep quiet, but when Joan later says Pete hasn’t broken a promise to her, this might have been something that came to mind given her other experiences. Both of them aggressively act like they haven’t noticed the things the other person is hiding. LOL. You know, Pete actually sounds a little like Joan in the way he deals with the first dresses lady. Love the secretaries all having a house together. My mom has tons of stories about summers like that. They really did have wild times! God, the guy at the town meeting is such a dick. “Calm down, ladies!” just to be condescending. So many times when women are genuinely proud of something somebody cuts them down. This ep for me always seems to be about people in power helping people who have less power and then paying for it. (Joan and Pete are pretty equal but she makes a point of getting him the dress for free.) I don’t know exactly how Betty feels about Henry kissing her, but at first she looks kind of disappointed. I really love Betty taking credit for the stuff Henry did to save the reservoir. And Henry’s little advice about power. I think a lot of the time when Betty’s married to Henry she’s making sure she has enough room to not be perfect. It’s interesting how the night that marks the point before Don goes to Suzanne and Betty to Henry, is one where Don’s attracted to Betty as this exotic, sophisticated woman in Europe when Suzanne is like the opposite—homey, simple, giving him a sort of love he wanted as a kid. Although I guess he also sees her as something new and different because of that. Ugh. Pete showing up at Gundrun’s door is like a cliche date rape nightmare (date ends, then guy shows up again later), even if that’s not actually the scenario. Love that even the romantic in-jokes between Don and Betty involve...cigarettes. I forgot that Betty had her first kiss with Henry in the same ep where she describes a first kiss as going from a stranger to knowing someone. And that every kiss after is “a shadow” of that kiss—which would apply more to Don. But will come to apply to Henry too. The Pete/Trudy scene is parallel in a real contrast to Pete’s later dalliance with the neighbor. Here he’s so openly guilty (which he isn’t when he just sleeps with people) and more important remorseful. Later he’s just defensive and won’t apologize. He starts off this ep with all these symbols of being a kid—remembering childhood, watching cartoons and eating cereal, then at the end of the ep he’s back to that after he’s talked to Trudy, talking about throwing water balloons made of ketchup. There’s something really immature about him throughout the whole ep. It’s a bit sad seeing Betty wearing the dress she wears when they come back from Rome. It’s so colorful and modern-seeming, like something she’d wear in her modeling days. Re-watching Wee Small Hours: I’m surprised Betty was allowed to be left-handed. I see Peggy got herself on Hilton after all! We’ve seen Lee Garner Jr. been a jerk before, forcing people to do things for his amusement, but it’s brilliant the way he’s introduced in this ep by forcing Pete to smoke, with Pete coughing desperately through the entire rest of the scene. Had he smoked more he probably would have thrown up. I feel for you, Pete. Connie’s got liquor from Prohibition, a little callback to Gene. Not a very personal one—it really just says they’re both the same age, but since Connie’s literally saying Don is like a son, or more than a son, to him, that seems pretty important. Also once Connie starts telling him he’s a son he starts being disappointed in him and withholding love and approval. God, I didn’t realize Harry had several DAYS between Lee’s phone call and the disastrous meeting. Roger’s right about telling Mommy and Daddy. It’s hilarious that Harry thinks he can’t tell Roger or Pete because Lee told him not to, like it doesn’t occur to him to tell Roger and Pete and tell them he was told not to tell them. I do like when the show refuses to pull punches on the 60s attitudes about things (although I think the show’s always filtering this stuff through a 21st century lens). Don’s not a raging homophobe, doesn’t mind working with gay men, he’s not insecure and he doesn’t have issues about it. But he doesn’t see gay as being just like straight, only with men. Plus there’s sexism at work too—he’s not going to see this as a rape situation. Of course, in later seasons this scene with Sal comes up again when Don reacts totally differently to the Jaguar proposal with Joan, because from Don’s pov they’re completely different. And not just because HOMOPHOBIA but because of all the things going on with Don at both times. I like how ultimately Connie gives Don an excuse to be out of the house at all hours. And the extra stress really seems to be part of what drives him out to her house at last. Edited August 10, 2016 by sistermagpie Link to comment
Melancholy August 11, 2016 Share August 11, 2016 (edited) On 8/9/2016 at 11:41 PM, sistermagpie said: I do like when the show refuses to pull punches on the 60s attitudes about things (although I think the show’s always filtering this stuff through a 21st century lens). Don’s not a raging homophobe, doesn’t mind working with gay men, he’s not insecure and he doesn’t have issues about it. But he doesn’t see gay as being just like straight, only with men. Plus there’s sexism at work too—he’s not going to see this as a rape situation. Of course, in later seasons this scene with Sal comes up again when Don reacts totally differently to the Jaguar proposal with Joan, because from Don’s pov they’re completely different. And not just because HOMOPHOBIA but because of all the things going on with Don at both times. I like how ultimately Connie gives Don an excuse to be out of the house at all hours. And the extra stress really seems to be part of what drives him out to her house at last. Although, I'm kind of dubious that many people even in the 2000s would behave differently than Don. (I am 100 percent positive that no regular Sterling Cooper character on this show would have spared Sal. I wonder if anyone disagrees. Much like I'm 100 percent positive that no regular Sterling Cooper cast member would have spared Lane.) After hearing how Roger Ailes's gross sexual harassment of his female anchors, including bona fide headlining news celebrities like Gretchen Carlson and Megyn Kelly, went tolerated and hidden, it really makes you think. Even today, people will unfairly punish employees if doing so is incredibly, incredibly profitable. Roger Ailes was viewed as this brilliant right-wing propaganda man, critical to the success of Fox News. As a result, he gets to do whatever the fuck he wants even if it's against a number of laws , courts a lawsuit, is targeted against famous talent in their own right, and probably cost employees' jobs to keep the secret. And actually, I think that Lucky Strike is more starkly crucial to SC"s business than Roger Ailes was starkly crucial to FNC because the obvious money that client brings is more clearly indispensable than newsman types talents. And it's not just Fox News- it's a wider phenomenon. American culture has DRASTICALLY improved on gay rights since the '60s. It's less drastically but still improved when it comes to rape culture and sexual harassment. However, I think all of those ideals would generally collapse in the face of the Allmighty Dollar and it's not just about firing the Joeys of the world i.e. small time copywriters who are so insignificant that Don doesn't even remember his name but instead, firing the largest client pays a vastly disproportionate percentage of the bills and whose disappearance would lead to mass-layoffs and possibly folding. I think it was a fair choice to make the client Lucky Strike. However, I think it could have been more obviously dark and foreign to modern ideals if an exec from a smaller client sexually harassed Sal and demanded that he be fired and Don caved into that. Like, I think that Jaguar's small size plays a HUGE and underrated role in Don telling Joan that she doesn't need to put out to get the business and then, Don's rebellion against Herb when Herb was demanding Don compromise his vision and status. Don views not getting Jaguar or losing Jaguar as a mere disappointment because it's "piddly shit" and losing it doesn't threaten the agency or anyone's jobs or Don's standard of living. With Lucky Strike, it's "they can turn out our lights." Don can be bought, but some of his moral standards like protecting his employees or his idealized art of advertising need to be bought at a far higher price than some of his colleagues which can be bought far more cheaply. However, you're right that there are other reasons why Don was willing to give up exciting business for Joan but he wasn't for Sal. Namely that Joan is the kind of girl worth protecting. That's why Don first argues against whoring out Joan by citing her "husband in Vietnam" even though Don knows better than anyone that they're getting divorced and Greg's claim to Joan is meaningless after the Don/Joan bar shenanigans in the last ep. It's not a real consideration. It's just fodder in an ideal of Joan as above prostitution. It remains a bit of a mystery on whether Don would protect Sal's job if Pampers or Clearisol were at stake. Edited August 11, 2016 by Melancholy 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie August 12, 2016 Share August 12, 2016 (edited) 23 hours ago, Melancholy said: Although, I'm kind of dubious that many people even in the 2000s would behave differently than Don. (I am 100 percent positive that no regular Sterling Cooper character on this show would have spared Sal. I wonder if anyone disagrees. You're totally right. It's not really about keeping it like the 60s so much as not making sure their star looks good by having him conform to things their presumably liberal 2008 audience would approve of themselves. Also really good point about Lucky Strike. Among other differences about the two situations, Lucky Strike had just so much power. They were always a danger because of that so it's good they made a big story about it when they lost it all--and not even because of something anybody did. The Color Blue One of my favorite little character things in the whole show are Ken’s little announcements. It could have been OTT but it’s really just the one odd note in what’s usually a very smooth character. Today it’s “I love getting telegrams, but I never send them.” Don’s like “How’s that supposed to help? And obviously it’s not. Ken’s just thinking out loud. I honestly never noticed Alison much the first time but now I just keep seeing her being a really good secretary. Don really does blow it by sleeping with her. Sally says the person on the phone “hanged up.” Tammy Campbell will one day say she “got stinged” by a bee. I like how the kids on the show in general aren’t written to be cutesy so when they do make a mistake it’s one that most people actually did make at some point when they were a kid, regularizing an irregular verb. Awww. Poor Paul looking at his one good campaign while he knows he’s going to lose to Peggy. And then masturbating. Oh, Paul. He's making me think about Megan there. I mean, she has her great idea that comes to her in the shower and saves the account and gets an award for it, but I don't know if she'd be able to be as consistent as Peggy is in these meetings. This time Suzanne started talking about the kid and whether or not we see the same blue (my own teacher totally didn’t even get it when I asked that question in high school, btw) I wanted to whip out a picture of that infamous gold/white vs. blue/black dress. I like the way the Drapers both assume their lover called the house. And both of them say they didn't. I love Suzanne’s brother and the way he never comes back. A lot of people assumed that Don giving him his card meant it would somehow come up again—and it might have happened, but it’s just as realistic, and shaggier, that it never did. Or at least, it didn't happen by 1970. The scene with Don and the brother also now makes me think of Don and the kid at the motel later. Both guys get a pep talk from Don, but what Danny (that’s his name, right?) says is completely true. Don tries to give him a talk as an older man who knows what’s what but it’s actually Danny who’s more experienced here, telling him, basically, to check his privilege. Don can’t give this kid something the way he can the other kid, who’s much more like young Don. I assume Don’s thinking a bit of Adam when he gives Danny his card—and we just saw his picture with Betty. Danny’s just one of a line of people who will tell Don they can’t do what he thinks he did, create another identity through sheer force of will. It didn’t work with Adam, won’t work with Lane or Stephanie. Watching it now I feel like that gives it almost a little hint that Don’s living a fantasy here with Suzanne, one that’s going to disappear in a puff of smoke when Betty confronts him with that box, as if it never happened. He’s not going to think of going back to Suzanne when Betty leaves him even though she’d presumably still be available. Of course he can’t once the illusion is broken. Meanwhile, when we cut back to Betty she’s coughing—not something she does very often, but something that now seems like a harbinger of doom. Like she’s just taken a step forward by knowing the truth about Don, and that puts her closer to death. It’s great that Don’s playing white knight for Princess Suzanne leads to Betty deciding to stick with the status quo a little longer—and ultimately get a chance to plan better and build that lifeboat. Iirc, Don tells Sally that Betty’s being melodramatic when he hears she’s sick, but she actually doesn’t seem to be somebody who gets dramatic about her health. Don puts such emphasis on showing up with the “beautiful” Betty Draper on his arm, he points out the kid how pretty she looks...I watch this now and think yeah, it makes a lot of sense she got herself good and fat just to be sure. Because hearing those things after what she just learned in the context of a lifetime of her mother telling her her job is to be pretty and catch a husband....yeah. Burn it all down. Just before the party I realized I’d seen Alison Brie’s name in the credits and she hadn’t been in it at all...oh, here she is in a group shot with 2 minutes and 53 seconds to go! Edited August 12, 2016 by sistermagpie Link to comment
txhorns79 August 12, 2016 Share August 12, 2016 Quote However, you're right that there are other reasons why Don was willing to give up exciting business for Joan but he wasn't for Sal. Namely that Joan is the kind of girl worth protecting. Honestly, I think Don was willing to give up the account because he felt he didn't "earn" it, i.e. he was so against the Joan situation because it would mean that his importance was undermined, and it would always call into question why they got the account. 4 Link to comment
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