Joe Hellandback October 12, 2018 Share October 12, 2018 The Good; All great, emotional turmoil mixed with side-splitting humour at every turn. Especially love Anya and the bunnies and the beautiful ending song The Bad; The Loanshark is a funny idea poorly realised Spoiler (foreshadowed in Restless as is Giles thinking Spike's his son). Works better in the comics although he comes to a sticky end. Best line; Giles "Welcome to the nancy tribe" Women good/men bad; Spike refers to Anya as tarty and a trollop. Anya's woman's intuition needs work. Jeez!; Once again the creature we don't see behind the counter is the scariest of all, just like in Forever. Seeing Buffy get kicked on the ground also isn't nice. Kinky dinky; Spike and Buffy kiss again. And the Spuffers did rejoice! Spike is 'Randy Giles' and dresses just as he did in Restless. Anya describes Spike and Giles as 'ruggedly handsome'. Willow in her towel. Dawn seems to enjoy Xander helping her down the ladder. Captain Subtext; Even when amnesiac Willow and Tara sense they're lovers and Buffy and Dawn sense they're sisters (amnesiac Buffy knows amnesiac Dawn for all of one minute and they're already both enjoying Buffy stroking Dawn's hair in the traditional Summers' way). How funny would it have been if it was the other way around and both pairs came to each other's conclusion? Check out Dawn's expression when Willow tells her she's 'Kinda gay' (as she remarked of VampWillow). Interesting it's 'kinda' giving another hint of bi-Willow. Willow and Xander also sense their affection for one another. BUT Anya and Xander don't, she's actually attracted to Giles (and still hugely capitalist). Maybe Anya is actually in love with the idea of Xander rather than the guy himself? Even more interesting is Giles' affection for her. Anya looking for a daddy figure (like D'Hoffryn?) and Giles transferring his fatherly love for Buffy to Anya? Willow and Tara break up just as another relationship blossoms. Giles threatens to put Spike across his knee (well Buffy already has him spanking Dawn). Spike refers to Giles as 'nancy' and Giles welcomes him to 'the nancy tribe'. Note Spike seems to desperately want to be like Angel (because Buffy loves Angel or does he wants Buffy only because Angel loves her?) Spike refer to Giles' car as 'penis shaped' but then they hug. We never meet Spike's dad, divorce taboo in Victorian society so he may have died young (much more common), perhaps Spike harbours feelings of resentment towards him as his relationship with Angelus might suggest? Scoobies knocked out: everyone but Xander also faints Buffy: 17 Giles: 12 Cordy: 6 Xander: 11 Will: 6 Jenny: 2 Angel: 6 Oz: 3 Faith: 1 Joyce: 3 Wes: 1 Anya;3 Dawn; 2 Kills: 2 vamps for Buffy, 3 for Spike and 1 for Xander Buffy: 103 vamps, 41 demons, 6 monsters, 3 humans, 1 werewolf, 1 spirit warrior & a robot Giles: 8 vamps, 2 demon, 1 human, 1 god. Cordy: 3 vamps, a demon Will: 6 vamps + 1 demon +1 fawn. Angel: 3 vamps, 1 demon, 1 human Oz: 3 vamps, 1 zombie Faith: 16 vamps, 5 demons, 3 humans Xander: 6 vamps, 2 zombies, 1 a demon, Anya: 1 vamp and 1 a demon Riley; 18 vamps + 7 demons Spike; 8 vamps and 2 demon Buffybot; 2 vamps Tara; 1 demon Dawn; 1 vamp Alternate scoobies: the whole gang go amnesiac Buffy: 7 Giles: 4 Cordy: 1 Will: 3 Jenny: 2 Angel: 3 Oz: 2 Joyce: 2 Xander: 4 Tara; 1 Dawn;1 Spike; 1 Total number of scoobies: 7 (but not for long!). Note how keen Dawn is to participate in the Scooby meeting, slowly becoming a full member of the gang. Xander, Willow, Buffy, Anya, Tara, Spike, Giles Spike; good or bad? Amnesiac Spike doesn't seem to realise he's supposed to be evil and wants to be good. He saves Buffy again. Dawn in peril; along with everyone else 7 Dawn the bashful virgin; 5 Questions and observations; Teeth asks if Buffy has ever considered working as a debt collector. Well it would solve her financial problems. Tara's very right, Willow violating her mind is no joke especially after what Glory did to her. It also makes their sex whilst Tara is amnesiac virtual rape. Buffy wears her cream number she died in for the first time. Xander wears what looks like an army jacket, left over from his faux soldier days? Xander's latent insecurities are very apparent, wondering if Willow is dating his brother. But he still comes the hero in the end. Buffy's choice of 'Joan' suggests Joan of Arc. Note amnesiac Tara begins to stutter, just as she did before she befriended the Scoobs. Marks out of 10; 9/10, suffers in comparison with OMWF but otherwise not perfect only because of the loanshark. Link to comment
Halting Hex October 12, 2018 Share October 12, 2018 (edited) Pointless episode, notable mostly for the Ray Harryheusen-esque special effects. (Giles against the skeleton is excellent.) But the characters learn nothing from the second chance the amnesia gives them, and so you could cut this one out completely and you'd still be exactly where the musical left off: Giles is leaving town, Tara is leaving Willow, Buffy's in denial about Spike and His Sinister Attraction (barf!). Running in place to absolutely no effect. And the characters get shit on, one by one: • Willow is a pathetic junkie who can't go a single minute without breaking her "no magic" promises. • Tara shows no fairness or flexibility, telling Willow that she doesn't get to make decisions for them on her own in the same conversation where she gives Willow an ultimatum, won't commit to giving Willow another chance even if Willow does everything Tara wants, and leaves Willow broken and going "are you saying you're gonna leave me?" • Giles remains an idiot who thinks that Buffy's problem is that she's too dependent on him, when in fact her issue is her inability to connect with people, and isolating her will only exacerbate the problem. I still say what's actually going on is that he can tell Willow's about to blow and has decided to run 6000 miles to the east for his own safety, but really there's nothing textual to support that, either. (And after his emphasis on Willow's need to deal with her power responsibly in Flooded, his dereliction of duty towards her is almost as bad, honestly.) • Buffy is all "wah-wah-wah, you can't understand my pain!". So much for the thought that opening up about Heeeeeeeeeaven would help her heal; she's the same self-involved brat she's been all season. (I keep thinking that the end of Act 1, just before the spell hits, is her trying to reach out to Willow, as it reads in the script. But some minor changes in the transcript turn it into "Buffy snots again, some more, lather, rinse, repeat." I don't know whether to blame the director, or Rebecca Kirshner [if she approved the changes] or SMG's performance, but as I've written about Kirshner's S5 eps, she seems to have an affection for the Buffy/Willow friendship that had largely been drained out of the rest of the series by now, so maybe what I sense in the script was her vestigial affection for B/W, and someone else "corrected" her work before we got the finished version.) (Most annoying incorrect spoiler of the year: "Under the influence of the amnesia spell, Willow will be attracted to Buffy." Sigh. Dammit. And again, sigh.) • Spike remains an obnoxious boor, putting things in the most crude terms possible just so the show can revel in UPN's lack of censors Quote SPIKE: We kissed, Buffy. With the rising music and the rising…what was that? Really, Spike? Really??? It's that important to let Buffy know you were getting an erection, is that it? ("Rising", get it? Ha-ha, so funny!) Honestly, I'm actually offended on Spike's behalf, with his being written so crudely just so that the writers can meet their sex "joke" quota, and slide one in. (See, I can do it, too! "Slide one in"! Ain't I clever!) Grow the fuck up. Honestly. Oh, and Spike's still a single-minded stalker who won't take "no" for an answer, but that goes back to the days when William wouldn't get the hell away from Cecily, so points for consistency, I suppose. And the series continues its annoying pandering to the loudest ass-kissing part of the fanbase. Look, everyone, Spike's wearing the suit from Restless! And he thinks he's Giles's son! It's all connected! Such brilliant foreshadowing! Joss is such a genius, y'all! (And thus HOW DARE YOU dislike Spuffy or Junkie!Willow or Xanya's incredibly boring "hijinx"! Don't you know genius when you see it?) Oh, SHUT THE FUCK UP. Seriously. Annoying as anything, and I stopped rewatching it years ago. But qualifies as "adequate", I suppose. 5/10? And it does have one good line: Quote SPIKE: "Randy Giles"? Why not call me "Horny Giles" or "Desperate-for-a-Shag Giles", then? See, not all sex jokes are pathetic and vulgar. Even when coming from Desperate-for-a-Shag, I mean Spike. (Exception proving the rule, I suppose.) Edited October 13, 2018 by Halting Hex 1 Link to comment
lembergwatcher October 13, 2018 Share October 13, 2018 13 hours ago, Halting Hex said: so you could cut this one out completely and you'd still be exactly where the musical left off It's like you're reading my mind. Spoiler I guess that was one of the problems regarding season sux: too many pointless episodes. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback October 14, 2018 Author Share October 14, 2018 On 13/10/2018 at 11:32 AM, lembergwatcher said: It's like you're reading my mind. Hide contents I guess that was one of the problems regarding season sux: too many pointless episodes. But it's a GREAT pointless episode, it's so entertaining and full of character quirks. On 12/10/2018 at 9:33 PM, Halting Hex said: Pointless episode, notable mostly for the Ray Harryheusen-esque special effects. (Giles against the skeleton is excellent.) But the characters learn nothing from the second chance the amnesia gives them, and so you could cut this one out completely and you'd still be exactly where the musical left off: Giles is leaving town, Tara is leaving Willow, Buffy's in denial about Spike and His Sinister Attraction (barf!). Running in place to absolutely no effect. And the characters get shit on, one by one: • Willow is a pathetic junkie who can't go a single minute without breaking her "no magic" promises. • Tara shows no fairness or flexibility, telling Willow that she doesn't get to make decisions for them on her own in the same conversation where she gives Willow an ultimatum, won't commit to giving Willow another chance even if Willow does everything Tara wants, and leaves Willow broken and going "are you saying you're gonna leave me?" • Giles remains an idiot who thinks that Buffy's problem is that she's too dependent on him, when in fact her issue is her inability to connect with people, and isolating her will only exacerbate the problem. I still say what's actually going on is that he can tell Willow's about to blow and has decided to run 6000 miles to the east for his own safety, but really there's nothing textual to support that, either. (And after his emphasis on Willow's need to deal with her power responsibly in Flooded, his dereliction of duty towards her is almost as bad, honestly.) • Buffy is all "wah-wah-wah, you can't understand my pain!". So much for the thought that opening up about Heeeeeeeeeaven would help her heal; she's the same self-involved brat she's been all season. (I keep thinking that the end of Act 1, just before the spell hits, is her trying to reach out to Willow, as it reads in the script. But some minor changes in the transcript turn it into "Buffy snots again, some more, lather, rinse, repeat." I don't know whether to blame the director, or Rebecca Kirshner [if she approved the changes] or SMG's performance, but as I've written about Kirshner's S5 eps, she seems to have an affection for the Buffy/Willow friendship that had largely been drained out of the rest of the series by now, so maybe what I sense in the script was her vestigial affection for B/W, and someone else "corrected" her work before we got the finished version.) (Most annoying incorrect spoiler of the year: "Under the influence of the amnesia spell, Willow will be attracted to Buffy." Sigh. Dammit. And again, sigh.) • Spike remains an obnoxious boor, putting things in the most crude terms possible just so the show can revel in UPN's lack of censors Really, Spike? Really??? It's that important to let Buffy know you were getting an erection, is that it? ("Rising", get it? Ha-ha, so funny!) Honestly, I'm actually offended on Spike's behalf, with his being written so crudely just so that the writers can meet their sex "joke" quota, and slide one in. (See, I can do it, too! "Slide one in"! Ain't I clever!) Grow the fuck up. Honestly. Oh, and Spike's still a single-minded stalker who won't take "no" for an answer, but that goes back to the days when William wouldn't get the hell away from Cecily, so points for consistency, I suppose. And the series continues its annoying pandering to the loudest ass-kissing part of the fanbase. Look, everyone, Spike's wearing the suit from Restless! And he thinks he's Giles's son! It's all connected! Such brilliant foreshadowing! Joss is such a genius, y'all! (And thus HOW DARE YOU dislike Spuffy or Junkie!Willow or Xanya's incredibly boring "hijinx"! Don't you know genius when you see it?) Oh, SHUT THE FUCK UP. Seriously. Annoying as anything, and I stopped rewatching it years ago. But qualifies as "adequate", I suppose. 5/10? And it does have one good line: See, not all sex jokes are pathetic and vulgar. Even when coming from Desperate-for-a-Shag, I mean Spike. (Exception proving the rule, I suppose.) Yeah, I love the skeleton too, deliberately hokey and all the funnier for it. Personally I thought Tara just went the extra mile for Willow but as we see it wasn't enough. Link to comment
MagnusHex March 13, 2021 Share March 13, 2021 I wouldn't call it pointless, since this was Tara's ultimatum to the junkie Willow, and such an ultimatum would've been definitely necessary for a single episode to fill out... on paper. But in execution, this ultimatum, instead of dealing with Willow's addiction issues, turned into some comedy hour and THEREFORE became a pointless episode. So yeah. I don't hate the episode, but I was mostly indifferent to everything up till the end, when we finally dealt with Tara being disappointed with Willow. Those last few moments were done pretty well with no dialogue and a single song playing out. The rest of the episode before that... eh, typical television comedy schtick. Memory loss, coming up with quirky false identities, yada yada yada. Kinda boring at times, but it has its moments. It's like watching "Days of Our Lives" or one of the many corny soaps. Then again, I've been told that Buffy IS a soap with its melodramatic elements. I was pleasantly surprised that Willow was at least mellow enough to feel regret for her horrible actions towards Buffy at the beginning of the episode (even though I still stand by my previous remark of "selfish bitch"), and once again, I'm still (kinda) sympathetic towards her addiction issues. But man, that look Tara gave Willow at the end of the episode when their memories returned, that look says everything I feel about Willow and her inclination to manipulate people around her for her own convenience. It was as if Tara was looking at a friend who became a monster. God knows what lengths Willow would go to next to improve her life. She could very easily just hypnotize a girl and sleep with her just to make herself feel better for example. That's the power of the addiction an addict would never acknowledge easily. It's not even just drugs I'm talking about either - pornography can become an addiction too, the kind of ways it messes with your head and sex drive, so even though Willow's addiction has nothing to do with damaging her body, her psyche has been damaged regardless. Don't really care enough about Spuffy to really say anything about that make-out scene. It was inevitable that this show forces some kind of romance onto the main character. It's a flaw of the medium that the protagonist must be romantically involved. Link to comment
Halting Hex March 13, 2021 Share March 13, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, MagnusHex said: God knows what lengths Willow would go to next to improve her life. She could very easily just hypnotize a girl and sleep with her just to make herself feel better for example Sure, let's judge characters by things they haven't done and wouldn't do. That's fair. I mean, Willow put those love spells on Oz and Tara, so…oh, wait. (Alternatively, perhaps Will just didn't think it was worth wasting the good stuff on the Wiccan Wall of Sanctimony and Hypocrisy. Save that for somebody with a fashion sense that isn't comatose, perhaps? But they keep claiming she "loves" Tara, so…) ************************ On a more minor detail, the idea that the Scoobs believe Giles is Spike's father because they're both British would seem to indicate that the spell wiped the concept of "regional accents" from the group's collective brains. They don't sound even remotely similar. If Spike had a Southern drawl, and Giles was Vinny-from-Brooklyn, would the group think they're related because "they're both American"? Fuhgeddaboutit! Edited March 13, 2021 by Halting Hex Link to comment
MagnusHex March 14, 2021 Share March 14, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Halting Hex said: Sure, let's judge characters by things they haven't done and wouldn't do. That's fair. I mean, Willow put those love spells on Oz and Tara, so…oh, wait. Uh, she just mind-raped her friends for her own convenience. I think we're done with this conversation here because her actions spoke for themselves. Putting you on the ignore list because you seem to be very high-strung when it comes to my opinions. Edited March 14, 2021 by MagnusHex Link to comment
lembergwatcher March 14, 2021 Share March 14, 2021 (edited) On 3/13/2021 at 7:33 AM, MagnusHex said: I feel about Willow and her inclination to manipulate people around her for her own convenience Then Willow really did suck at manipulating people for her own convenience. She should've taken lessons from one Jonathan Levinson (if you remember the episode Superstar you know what I mean). On 3/13/2021 at 7:33 AM, MagnusHex said: It was as if Tara was looking at a friend who became a monster. Willow's magic use skyrocketed after she became involved with Tara. I have a feeling all the spell casting they constantly did together somehow contributed to Willow's addiction problem too. However Tara never acknowledged her own part in her lover's issues with magic. 15 hours ago, Halting Hex said: the Scoobs believe Giles is Spike's father Do they? IIRC only Anya buys the whole "Rupert and Randy are related" concept. The rest seems preoccupied with other stuff at the moment. OTOH, judging from their current state, Scoobs can totally believe in anything. 7 hours ago, MagnusHex said: Uh, she just mind-raped her friends for her own convenience. What Willow did was really bad and she deserves condemnation. Although some other Scoobies aren't without sin themselves. And I don't mean Xander's little games with love magic in 2.16. I mean Tara herself did something quite similar to mind-rape more than a year before the events depicted in Tabula Rasa (in Family to be precise). Were we supposed to condemn her back then? No. What consequences did she face for her recklessness? Total acceptance by the gang and the best birthday. 7 hours ago, MagnusHex said: you seem to be very high-strung when it comes to my opinions Whenever you write some comments on forums you probably expect a reaction, so... Edited March 14, 2021 by lembergwatcher Link to comment
Halting Hex March 14, 2021 Share March 14, 2021 18 hours ago, MagnusHex said: Uh, she just mind-raped her friends for her own convenience. "Mind-raped" is an unnecessarily-inflammatory term, IMO. (And the text of the spell makes it clear that she's trying to heal Buffy and Tara's pain.) It has not a whit to do with hypothetically physically raping someone, when Willow has already proven incapable of enspelling her exes romantically. 18 hours ago, MagnusHex said: Putting you on the ignore list because you seem to be very high-strung when it comes to my opinions. Well, I suppose you won't see this, then, but…projection, much? Or, to quote the "rapist" herself: "I think that mine is the level head and your is the one that things would roll off of." JMO. Link to comment
Joe Hellandback March 18, 2021 Author Share March 18, 2021 On 3/14/2021 at 9:54 PM, Halting Hex said: "Mind-raped" is an unnecessarily-inflammatory term, IMO. (And the text of the spell makes it clear that she's trying to heal Buffy and Tara's pain.) It has not a whit to do with hypothetically physically raping someone, when Willow has already proven incapable of enspelling her exes romantically. Well, I suppose you won't see this, then, but…projection, much? Or, to quote the "rapist" herself: "I think that mine is the level head and your is the one that things would roll off of." JMO. Willow has already had sex with Tara under the "Great roofie spirit" in OMWF? Link to comment
Halting Hex March 20, 2021 Share March 20, 2021 (edited) That argument only holds water if you believe that Tara would have refused intimacy without the spell, though. It's several days after All the Way, and it's not as if Tara was trying to end the relationship; she didn't even leave the bedroom. To assume that normal service would not have resumed without the benefit of Bramble seems to be stretching it, IMO. Now if Willow had gotten busy right after doing the mind-wipe, there would be a stronger case. But all she wanted out of the spell was a less-querulous slumber; "rape" is really, really pushing it, I'd say. And it's not as if even an argument necessarily prohibits sex from occuring: Xander and Anya would probably have boinked just to shut each other up. We've seen Spike resort to a sexy bed-crawl when Harmony appeared initially unresponsive, and Cordelia advocate for kissing even when she didn't want to make up. So to say that Willow used the spell to get something intimate (that she neither sought nor obtained, in actuality) which she couldn't have gotten from Tara otherwise (even though arguing before bedtime still doesn't guarantee a G-rated night in said bed) makes a few assumptions that I personally wouldn't. But JMO. (Which doesn't make Willow's use of the spell anywhere near decent, mind you. I'm just pushing back against certain words being used, without defending her actions. But, again, JMO.) Edited March 20, 2021 by Halting Hex Link to comment
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