Phoebe Halliwell

[latincoffee]

Who else loves this beauty? aka Alyssa Milano.

[Esmeralda]

Yeah, she's beautiful.  Too bad her character wasn't once she met Cole.

[Eva Marie]

I find it amazing that Alyssa was a last min. replacement because I can't imagine the show without her. She has the sort of old-school charisma that beams off the screen and a diverse range of comedic talent.

[Guest]

Yeah, I remember years ago all of the rumours about what "personal reasons" the original Phoebe left for. Some said she was religious and against the Wiccan stuff. 

But, looking back I feel it was clear that they allowed her to "leave of her own accord" when in reality Spelling felt she didn't work and they needed someone with more screen presence to stand alongside Combs/Doherty, and if they could get someone with star power then that's a bonus. 

Shows always go through casting changes from original pilot to series and original Phoebe wasn't the only change. I think it was probably just a kindness that they let her go and say she'd quit. 

 

Either that or she went to Spelling saying "Shannen goes or I DO!!!!" and unlike Milano, she wasn't as lucky. Lmao. 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Lost

[magicdog]

On 3/10/2018 at 9:03 PM, Lost said:

he rumours about what "personal reasons" the original Phoebe left for. Some said she was religious and against the Wiccan stuff. 

I remember those rumors and I think they're bunk!  I don't knowLori Rom's religious bent, but  if she felt hampered about playing a witch she would have known about it when her agent gave her the script.  She could have backed out before filming the original pilot.

I saw that pilot and Rom had no chemistry with SD or HMC.  She seemed physically more imposing than either actress when beside them and I can understand why it was decided to replace her.  She just didn't fit the character of Phoebe.

[latincoffee]

Alyssa was awesome in Charmed. 

[Guest]

On 23/03/2018 at 2:56 PM, magicdog said:

I remember those rumors and I think they're bunk!  I don't knowLori Rom's religious bent, but  if she felt hampered about playing a witch she would have known about it when her agent gave her the script.  She could have backed out before filming the original pilot.

I saw that pilot and Rom had no chemistry with SD or HMC.  She seemed physically more imposing than either actress when beside them and I can understand why it was decided to replace her.  She just didn't fit the character of Phoebe.

Completely agree. She was so much taller than Combs and Doherty too, which doesn't bode well for the newbies in the reboot either...

[blueray]

^Every time I see that picture I keep thinking she is their mother.

 

I'm not sure if I ever saw the original pilot, but I can't imagine anyone else doing the role accept Alyssa. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by blueray

[Esmeralda]

We've been discussing Phoebe and Cole at another site and the discussion has been so fascinating that I had to bring it over here.  It takes place during our 20th anniversary reverse series rewatch after a bunch of us had rewatched 'Primrose Empath' right after watching 'Death Takes a Halliwell':

Member #1 wrote:

Quote

Coming back to the episode, is it just me or does it seem like Phoebe is not in college? Here and Death Takes a Halliwell episode? 

I randomly found myself doing a scene rewatch and ended up at Phoebe’s graduation party at P3 and I was like wait....Phoebe graduated? She was in college during these episodes? It really didn’t seem like it, especially since it’s been awhile since I saw season 3. So anyone new watching these would know about Phoebe's forbidden relationship with Cole first but sadly no idea about going back to college working hard to get her degree along with the responsibility of saving innocents and changing her bad habits and everything ??? 

Even her graduation celebration ended up being worried about Cole.

It really harmed Phoebe’s character as an individual. Cole had a lot of interesting stuff about him already and could stand out individually. But by having Phoebe mostly worried and talking about Cole rather than developing other aspects of her life separate from Cole, the only interesting thing that became about Phoebe was…..Cole. Cole became a crutch to make Phoebe interesting. And that horribly backfired in season 5 when he’s being painted as some kind of abusive monster while Phoebe the innocent victim who did no wrong.

Member #2 wrote:

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The last thing Phoebe needed in her life was Cole. Or really, a man at all. She was such a unique person in the first two seasons, and she had more than enough to do with all the magical situations they were in, going back to school, and finding a job. Her doing all these things while maturing and growing as a person would have been plenty to develop her character. Cole derailed everything by being matched with her. 

I love Cole's potential and a lot of who he was, but he ruined Phoebe. I like to imagine in my alternate reality that Phoebe was not his target to seduce, and she acted towards him the way she did to Bane in season 2. It would have given her some much needed growing up to suspect and ultimately be right about Cole not being someone they could trust. And it would work out even better if Prue were the one matched with him, because she had spent so much of her life being the one who was always right and who made good decisions, and I think it would be good for her to really screw up. 

Member #3 (Me) wrote:

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Oh, man, you are so right about all of that. But that's what happened when Brad Kern took over - suddenly the sisters were nothing without a man.

And you are so right about how much better it would've been had Prue thought that Cole was similar to Bane while Phoebe was certain he wasn't. What a way for both characters to grow!

Anyone want to write *that* as an alternate-universe spin-off, I would so love to read it!
 

Member #4 wrote:

Quote

Wow!!! Now that's an idea I never heard. 

How great it would be for both sisters and a wonderful way to build up the wonderful character progression they got growing closer in the series thus far.

Someone write this please.

And again unlike S2, S3 was all about Cole for her. So her college life was pushed aside. It felt like the writers or Kern forgot Phoebe was in college and suddenly went they better show her college story. So Sin Fransisco and TDWCIFTC was suddenly rushing her graduation.

Phoebe's progression didn't need a man until at least S5, once she graduated and found a job. They already had Piper's love story and that was enough. Thankfully Prue didn't get one in S3. Might have been just better for Cole's story to shift to Prue instead.

 

Member #1 replied:

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Now that you mention her reaction to Bane, I can't help but think her unforgiving reactions toward Aunt Gail's betrayal, Sam revealing he was Mom's whitelighter, when Aviva ending up hurting her thinking she was Prue and ofcourse Cal Greene. Her being forgiving and accepting of Cole does seem extremely unrealistic taking into consideration her past behavior when faced with betrayal or hurt.

On top of that, Cole didn't just kill more innocents than Bane and Cal could in a lifetime, but tried to kill her sisters more than once and slept with her too while hiding all this. So Phoebe going from angry tearful one moment and smooching and cuddling Cole and faking his death the next seems as unrealistic as  9/11 terrorist revealing his true identity and other crimes (including trying to kill her family) to a woman he slept with then proving how much her love had changed him.

Sorry, but my natural reaction would be closer to vomiting on the guy and trying to chop off his family jewels. But giving him a big kiss with a huge smile and faking his death just because he killed one guy who was trying to kill me? Yeah....no. I still would be processing the whole killed so many innocent people and tried to kill my family and I slept with him and sick to my stomach to even come up with a fake his death and lie to my family scenario.

Brad Kern's Phoebe seems to be based on an alien it seems. Or an extremely dumb teenager who thinks the power of a girl's love can turn even the nastiest criminal into a big old soft Teddy bear who'll do good from now on all thanks to her. 

Yeah if that nasty criminal was a toddler or a pet, sure. 

Also how many times does Cole have to mention he's doing this good deed for Phoebe? Trying to change for Phoebe? And Phoebe's right there motivating this unhealthy behavior by whispering lovingly in his ear 'do it for me' or 'for us'. 

Did Phoebe change her ways because she fell in love with a hard working student? And his love for her awakened in Phoebe a desire in her she never thought existed and was lost forever....a desire to study! Hard! Ace multiple tests and exams! Graduate! And she's doing all this studying for him? And this guy is right there telling her 'pass it for me. Pass that psychology exam for us, Phoebe. We'll have a wonderful life together when you graduate with honors.'

But both Phoebe and Cole actually ended up hurting each other's individual characters. Though Phoebe mostly suffered the damage.

Matching Prue up with Cole is a good idea because acting wise Shannen and Julian are a perfect match. Couple and romance wise, I don't know how much it can go forward. Prue even convinced Bane to go to jail rather than just setting him free for saving her life or helping him vanquish a demon. Plus Prue is really overprotective of her sisters so I don't know how forgiving she could be to Cole's repeated attempts to kill her little sisters, even if they ended up hooking up romantically in the beginning. I imagine she would help in getting his father's soul and grudgingly appreciate any kind of help in vanquishing the Source, but once it's done, make him strip his powers. I can't imagine a marriage or happily ever after together. Especially if Prue met one of Cole's victim's family. She would probably make him go on a life long redemption mission to help in any way he can all of his victims loved ones or something if not jail.
 

Member #1 replied:

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For Phoebe, there are two scenarios where she was patient and forgiving when she otherwise wouldn't have been: Cole and her father. With Victor, she never knew him and painted him as a victim, because accepting the truth that he probably had a chance to be in her life and didn't take it was too painful for her. It's understandable.

But to forgive Cole is insane. It's like **** said. Her reaction should have been to be absolutely sickened to the point of vomiting that a murderer had gotten so embedded in her life. They didn't know each other nearly well enough for her to have even the slightest desire to save him. The real Phoebe, the one of the first two seasons, would have helped her sisters vanquish him, even if she lived with the wonder of what might have happened for a long time afterwards. 

And ****, I completely agree about Prue and Cole not working out long term. In my scenario, I only got as far as Cole's reveal as a demon in season 3 and the aftereffects of Prue realizing she'd made a horrible judgment call about him, and having to also realize that her formerly flakey sister had been completely right. I really don't think that if the sisters' true characterizations had been adhered to that Cole would have gotten very far at all.
 

What do you guys think?

Edited July 27, 2018 by Esmeralda

[Apprentice79]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:58 PM, Esmeralda said:

We've been discussing Phoebe and Cole at another site and the discussion has been so fascinating that I had to bring it over here.  It takes place during our 20th anniversary reverse series rewatch after a bunch of us had rewatched 'Primrose Empath' right after watching 'Death Takes a Halliwell':

Member #1 wrote:

Member #2 wrote:

Member #3 (Me) wrote:

Member #4 wrote:

Member #1 replied:

Member #1 replied:

What do you guys think?

 

I agree with everything, but the Prue/Cole factor. Prue was always suspicious of outsiders.  It made sense for Cole to cozy up to Phoebe. Phoebe was the youngest, weakest of the three, with a propensity to turn evil. I think that Constance was right in that he should have been pure evil and the sisters should have vanquished him, at the end of season 3. He should have been the big bad of that season. Plus, Phoebe should have figured out that he was evil on her own and used her powers of premonition to orchestrate his vanquish.   Demons and warlocks always underestimated her powers, but, it would have been cool to see her powers progress and change in season 3.  We saw a bit of it in season 2, where she was able to connect mentally with that female demon who was killing men.  More should have been done with that aspect of her premonitions. Empathy and telepathy should have been progressions of her premonitions. not separate powers, like empathy in season 6.

Phoebe falling in love was in character with her, but, dismissing Cole's years of killing innocents and witches would not have been fine with her.  Paige vocalized those concerns in season 4 and everybody dismissed her misgivings. Phoebe was always about innocents, saving them and she was the most empathetic of the three original sisters.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Apprentice79

[Guest]

I don't agree. Phoebe mentions, goes to and is seen at college several times in the Cole arc of season 3. 

Her studying, however, isn't a dramatic conflict nor interesting enough to be the focal point of her character nor an episode. Relationships are. TV is a visual medium. 

Then once she does graduate, they focus on her career and making her successful. In entirely the wrong way, most unrealistic way. Well, not at first, an advice columnist seems a good fit. Becoming super famous from it and a celebrity by the start of season 6 was pushing it. But still, they always had that "work, career, school, learn, deadlines, work to do" side to her character right to the end. Even in season 7 she goes back to college again. 

[blueray]

They mention her being in college a lot in season 3. She first interacts with Cole (outside of the courtroom) on campus. I feel like she mentions studying as well in other episodes. I vaguely remember her graduation episode but I couldn't think of which one it was. I never liked how they made her a celebrity. It didn't make any sense that she would get that famous that quickly. I think they should have kept her job the same but not have her become a workaholic or famous.

[Esmeralda]

17 hours ago, blueray said:

They mention her being in college a lot in season 3. She first interacts with Cole (outside of the courtroom) on campus. I feel like she mentions studying as well in other episodes. I vaguely remember her graduation episode but I couldn't think of which one it was. I never liked how they made her a celebrity. It didn't make any sense that she would get that famous that quickly. I think they should have kept her job the same but not have her become a workaholic or famous.

I'll always wish that she had been the one who had the temp jobs while Paige kept her social service one - or vice versa. Her trying to help others with love when she only loved herself never made a lot of sense to me.

[Apprentice79]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 3:36 PM, Esmeralda said:

I'll always wish that she had been the one who had the temp jobs while Paige kept her social service one - or vice versa. Her trying to help others with love when she only loved herself never made a lot of sense to me.

If the original power of 3 had remained throughout the series. Phoebe should have become a social worker, helping troubled kids. I also think that she should have helped Daryl solve cold cases using her premonition powers. There could have been an unintended consequences for Daryl in the mortal world. Perhaps, it would attract unwanted attention from his colleagues and  jealousy as well.  This would create organic conflicts between the sisters and Daryl.

[magicdog]

On 8/19/2018 at 4:04 PM, Apprentice79 said:

If the original power of 3 had remained throughout the series. Phoebe should have become a social worker, helping troubled kids. I also think that she should have helped Daryl solve cold cases using her premonition powers. There could have been an unintended consequences for Daryl in the mortal world. Perhaps, it would attract unwanted attention from his colleagues and  jealousy as well.  This would create organic conflicts between the sisters and Daryl.

I agree with this - and it did blow back on Andy back in Season 1.  Darryl was already getting jokes about using "psychics" in crime solving.

[TheLovelyAnomaly]

Alyssa I have no feelings about, since I know practically nothing about her. The character Phoebe, on the other hand, went from being my favorite Halliwell sister to the one who infuriated me the most. 

[Esmeralda]

Agreed totally.  Once she met Cole, she went from being Phoebs, my favorite sister, to PhoeME, my least-favorite sister, the reason the Phoebe/Cole storyline is my least-favorite.

[Guest]

On 12/08/2018 at 2:58 AM, blueray said:

They mention her being in college a lot in season 3. She first interacts with Cole (outside of the courtroom) on campus. I feel like she mentions studying as well in other episodes. I vaguely remember her graduation episode but I couldn't think of which one it was. I never liked how they made her a celebrity. It didn't make any sense that she would get that famous that quickly. I think they should have kept her job the same but not have her become a workaholic or famous.

Yeah, she graduates in "The Demon Who Came in From the Cold". The episode with Cole's "brothers".  

[AMtoPM]

On 8/23/2018 at 11:09 PM, TheLovelyAnomaly said:

Alyssa I have no feelings about, since I know practically nothing about her. The character Phoebe, on the other hand, went from being my favorite Halliwell sister to the one who infuriated me the most. 

I agree.

I loved Phoebe in season 1 to 4. In the first two seasons she was so bubbly and had this eternal optimism throughout it all. She put a lot on emphasis on how Prue viewed her because that perception touched on her own insecurities. She was unsure of ever amounting to anything and while she was passionate, she didn't find anything to channel her passions into. That's where magic came in. It gave her a purpose and a destiny. I loved her enthusiasm and how she was the go to for spells, potions and knowledge on all things magic-related. I hated Leo's over-involvement because it took some of that from her and then it became Paige's thing. She had such a bleeding heart as well, she felt for everyone and was preyed on because of it. I loved that her power was not just to see things, but she felt what other people felt and it often propelled her to fight to save them.

In season 3 and 4, she came into her own with her love story with Cole helped bring out new aspects of her character and adding to her complexity. For one, the lure of "evil" was always with her in the form of the Woogy and then her past life. Cole really brought this forth and tempted her like no other. The first taste was faking his death and lying to her sisters. And then of course when the Source and Seer took them both over and they ruled the underworld.

But, when it comes to love he finally brought that to fruition in Phoebe and that was her most interesting story throughout the show. Her previous love interest was her first love, that ex from NY she gave up on. She cared about him, but outgrew him and was focused on her new life with her sisters and magic. Then there was Cupid and Billy. Both of them unattainable and representations of love, not actual love. She fell for safe bets that she could walk away from or guys she grew bored of. Phoebe liked the idea of love better than actually being in a relationship. Until she met Cole and he touched part of her soul. Made her want a real relationship, marriage and all of things that terrified her with other guys.

And throughout it all, she was more selfish than previously because she wanted this one thing for herself if nothing else, but she was still so warm and sweet. Though it was never mentioned like Prue, she prioritized duty and this relationship gave her a passion outside of magic and saving innocents. She welcomed Paige with patience when Piper could not. She got a job because she wanted to help out around the house. She was still the bleeding heart from before. But, she was maturing and paving her own way. I like how she lost herself because he didn't prioritize her relationship with her sisters and her duty because of her boyfriend/husband. It's an interesting conflict, but she fallout was awful. All her selfishness was swept under the rug and she was absolved of it all.

I hate how she changed after season 4. She lost everything that made her great. She never took any accountability for what happened with Cole. They were BOTH seduced and warped by evil. The Source's power took Cole over and the lure was just as enticing for Phoebe. She blamed it all on him and became so bitter as a defense mechanism to protect her heart and not face the consequences of her own actions, her sisters permitted it. After that she only grew to be more of a constant victim and more self-involved. Nothing was more important then her own lame column. I cannot believe how she would whine about having to save people because she had the weight of the world resting on her shoulders thanks to writing an advice column in her local paper. Being a big celebrity with billboards and an upcoming TV Show only validated her over-inflated ego. She even made being a empath all about herself and another source for more whining and victimization. Poor Phoebe has to deal with the feelings of others, when S1-4 Phoebe would have used that power for the betterment of others.

She also kept searching for a guy who could top Cole and never could find him. It made her desperate and obsessed with dating/men. She was once again in love with the idea of love and not any particular partner. I wonder if the show realized this when they had her settle for Coop, another Cupid? She married the embodiment of love cause she could never find the real thing despite it being her only goal in life.

[nightwing877]

On 8/20/2018 at 9:04 AM, Apprentice79 said:

If the original power of 3 had remained throughout the series. Phoebe should have become a social worker, helping troubled kids. I also think that she should have helped Daryl solve cold cases using her premonition powers. There could have been an unintended consequences for Daryl in the mortal world. Perhaps, it would attract unwanted attention from his colleagues and  jealousy as well.  This would create organic conflicts between the sisters and Daryl.

That really would have been a great way for Phoebe to use her powers for good and helping innocents. 

I never felt like the jobs most of the sisters had fitted, and even then, the ones that did were not even around long e.g Paige and Piper.

Being a social worker, was maybe the best job out of any of the sisters because it had a purpose to do actual good and a way to incorporate innocents into the plots. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by nightwing877