Season 1 Episodes Talk

[normasm]

Yeah the only other "trial" episode i can think of is The Edge of Winter, where Morgan was trying to see if the victim/unsub was stable enough to testify, and she wasn't. That was well-written and fascinating. He was left knowing at least the poor girl was where she needed to be, but her life was completely screwed.

[JenJenBosco]

Just now, normasm said:

Yeah the only other "trial" episode i can think of is The Edge of Winter, where Morgan was trying to see if the victim/unsub was stable enough to testify, and she wasn't. That was well-written and fascinating. He was left knowing at least the poor girl was where she needed to be, but her life was completely screwed.

I remember that one, and I actually really liked it, which was part of why I wish that they had done more trial episodes.  There's been many different types of unsubs, and victims, that would be interesting to see in a trial setting.  They could even do flashbacks to the case so it isn't too much trial.  

I wish that they could go back to past cases and do those trials or catch up with the victims, kind of like seeing Rebecca in the season two finale...she turned her life around and seemed to be doing well until Frank killed her.  Poor girl, two years held captive by her bio dad, and then a year later gets killed.  I liked the continuity of that, as well.

[smoker]

11 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

I actually think when they came up with Rossi the writers took Max Ryan and simply renamed him, perhaps adding a few peripheral things like Rossi's predilection for hunting. The similarities between Ryan and Rossi are far too close to be a mere coincidence, which makes me think that perhaps the writers wanted to bring Ryan back but were stymied somehow- and hence they created Rossi.

I still hope one day they do bring Ryan back, because I think it would be fun to have Rossi and Ryan meet up again. Those two are so similar that they'd butt heads, and they're both so headstrong that their arguments would be epic.

Plus...can't say no to Geoff Pierson back on my screen again. He played Ryan perfectly.

Agree. I do agree with everything.

I think they wanted a bigger name than Pierson to replace MP, but I love Geoff Pierson too, he is an extraordinary actor.

I would love watching them together too, I think they could have included him in some of  Nelson's Sparrow's flashbacks, it would have been a nice touch.  Who knows? maybe a miniseries, "BAU: origins" or something like that hehe. I have always thought the brass put them away together because they were the freak, the minority and the difficult to work with (Ryan); and they only got cases agents like Hotch didn't want to. The one original member who really cares about serial killers and their victims is Gideon, Rossi and Ryan were nurturing their careers, IMO, of course.

Totally  love when Hotch tells Reid he won't learn anything from Ryan.

Edited November 26, 2017 by smoker

[JenJenBosco]

2 minutes ago, smoker said:

Totally  love when Hotch tells Reid he won't learn anything from Ryan.

Me too.  I also love that Reid mentions that thing about repetitive learning, which explains why he's always coming up with more facts and figures and knows so many things, because anxious to learn more.  

[smoker]

4 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

Has anyone else? 

Morgan and JJ :(

Morgan in season 6 premiere >(

[JenJenBosco]

1 minute ago, smoker said:

Morgan and JJ :(

Morgan in season 6 premiere >(

Morgan did?  Hmm-mmm, I don't remember that.  It's been a while since I have seen the season six premiere.

Also, when did JJ consider killing an Unsub rather than let that person see trial?  I don't remember this.

[smoker]

1 minute ago, JenJenBosco said:

Morgan did?  Hmm-mmm, I don't remember that.  It's been a while since I have seen the season six premiere.

Also, when did JJ consider killing an Unsub rather than let that person see trial?  I don't remember this.

episode 200
And I can't remember the forever people, I remember the chase against orders, but not the end of the episode.

Sorry, seasons 8, 9 and some of 11 are a bit blurry.

[JenJenBosco]

Just now, smoker said:

episode 200
And I can't remember the forever people, I remember the chase against orders, but not the end of the episode.

Sorry, seasons 8, 9 and some of 11 are a bit blurry.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.  To be fair, I am a little out of my depth with the later seasons because I haven't seen them in a while, and I struggle to want to re-watch 200 or the Forever People because I didn't like them at all the first time.  However, I will get there, eventually.

[normasm]

19 minutes ago, smoker said:

episode 200
And I can't remember the forever people, I remember the chase against orders, but not the end of the episode.

Sorry, seasons 8, 9 and some of 11 are a bit blurry.

smoker, I think you mean the Forever People, and, yes, I think you're right that JJ just up and shot the guy without assessing the danger of the gas exploding and possibly killing her and the victim. Just up and shot him.

I'm not remembering Morgan doing anything. But I do recall just this current season, a PTSD-wracked Reid saying he was going to kill Mr. Scratch, no hesitation. Emily asked him to hang back with her, so, we'll never know if he would have. 

I know we're off topic here, but this is a fascinating conversation.

[JenJenBosco]

1 minute ago, normasm said:

smoker, I think you mean the Forever People, and, yes, I think you're right that JJ just up and shot the guy without assessing the danger of the gas exploding and possibly killing her and the victim. Just up and shot him.

I'm not remembering Morgan doing anything. But I do recall just this current season, a PTSD-wracked Reid saying he was going to kill Mr. Scratch, no hesitation. Emily asked him to hang back with her, so, we'll never know if he would have. 

I know we're off topic here, but this is a fascinating conversation.

Ahh, I see.  I don't remember Morgan's incident, but I do remember that JJ killed the unsub in the Forever People without proper reason.

As for Reid this season, I haven't watched since the first Reidless Episode last year...when I spoiled myself and found out where he was going for the rest of the season...so I didn't think about that.  Although, after everything, I could totally see him not hesitating.

Also, I know it's off topic, but it does pertain to an episode in season one, so I hope that helps.  

Personally, I am surprised that the conversation hasn't come up on the show more often, especially since they deal with the worst of the worst every day.  You'd think that they'd at least consider it every once in awhile.  But then again, maybe not, especially since they do sometimes have to kill the unsub to save the final victim.

Does anyone know how often they kill the unsub?

[smoker]

18 minutes ago, normasm said:

smoker, I think you mean the Forever People, and, yes, I think you're right that JJ just up and shot the guy without assessing the danger of the gas exploding and possibly killing her and the victim. Just up and shot him.

I'm not remembering Morgan doing anything. But I do recall just this current season, a PTSD-wracked Reid saying he was going to kill Mr. Scratch, no hesitation. Emily asked him to hang back with her, so, we'll never know if he would have. 

I know we're off topic here, but this is a fascinating conversation.

hahaha agree

and, yes, I was talking about that episode, thank you normasm. And 200 where Emily helps JJ to kill the bad guy.
Right now, about Morgan, 6x01 is the one coming to my mind.

Edited November 26, 2017 by smoker

[ReidFan]

2 hours ago, normasm said:

Yeah the only other "trial" episode i can think of is The Edge of Winter, where Morgan was trying to see if the victim/unsub was stable enough to testify, and she wasn't. That was well-written and fascinating. He was left knowing at least the poor girl was where she needed to be, but her life was completely screwed.

Tabula Rasa?

[JMO]

It is an interesting discussion, in part because the circumstances for each team member have been so varied.

I think that, as people grow older and more experienced, there is a certain amount of practicality that creeps in, and idealism that seeps out.  And I think we see that in the various circumstances where the team members have taken lives.  Reid, for whatever reason, seems to have been given an unusually large dose of idealism, and has lost it only slowly, in increments.  Is that because he has nothing to lose?  No family waiting at home, no specific dreams for the future?  Is that what has made him less likely to end a case by killing the unsub?  Is Rossi more likely, because he's simply seen too much? 

There are obvious reasons to kill an unsub, such as when a victim is in immediate danger.  Reid's done that at least three times that I can think of----the LDSK, once to save Alex Blake, and in season 12, to save Morgan.  So have the others, to save victims and colleagues.  But that raises the question of how immediate is the danger?  Would a moment of negotiation work?  Does the agent care, or would it be just as easy to get everything over with right now?  Are they actually trying to negotiate, or just to distract, to get the better shot?

Do they kill for revenge?  For example, did Rossi draw out Gideon's killer for the purpose of shooting him as a way of avenging the death of his old friend?  Or was he being practical, knowing that the guy had already been killing for decades?  Was it because Rossi had seen the judicial and penal systems fail too often?

Does it happen in the height of emotion, a la Hotch vs. Foyet?  Was that a practical killing, taking out Foyet because he'd already shown an ability to escape?  Was it to eradicate the threat to Jack?  Or was Hotch just insanely, and understandably, angry?  Does that make it murder?  Was Hotch impaired, in the moment?  Was JJ, in her moment?  Elle?

I liked that we saw some fallout for Elle, after her shooting of the rapist.  I wish we'd see more. Some uncertainty about the appropriateness of the shooting, some discussion of how else it could have been handled.  Maybe even some uncertainty, after the fact, of whether they'd gotten the right person.  Even some discussion about what separates a 'justified' killer from a serial one.  For me, it would inject new life into the series.

[normasm]

35 minutes ago, ReidFan said:

Tabula Rasa?

Riff that was the "other" that JMO had just spoken about.

[JenJenBosco]

3 minutes ago, JMO said:

It is an interesting discussion, in part because the circumstances for each team member have been so varied.

I think that, as people grow older and more experienced, there is a certain amount of practicality that creeps in, and idealism that seeps out.  And I think we see that in the various circumstances where the team members have taken lives.  Reid, for whatever reason, seems to have been given an unusually large dose of idealism, and has lost it only slowly, in increments.  Is that because he has nothing to lose?  No family waiting at home, no specific dreams for the future?  Is that what has made him less likely to end a case by killing the unsub?  Is Rossi more likely, because he's simply seen too much? 

There are obvious reasons to kill an unsub, such as when a victim is in immediate danger.  Reid's done that at least three times that I can think of----the LDSK, once to save Alex Blake, and in season 12, to save Morgan.  So have the others, to save victims and colleagues.  But that raises the question of how immediate is the danger?  Would a moment of negotiation work?  Does the agent care, or would it be just as easy to get everything over with right now?  Are they actually trying to negotiate, or just to distract, to get the better shot?

Do they kill for revenge?  For example, did Rossi draw out Gideon's killer for the purpose of shooting him as a way of avenging the death of his old friend?  Or was he being practical, knowing that the guy had already been killing for decades?  Was it because Rossi had seen the judicial and penal systems fail too often?

Does it happen in the height of emotion, a la Hotch vs. Foyet?  Was that a practical killing, taking out Foyet because he'd already shown an ability to escape?  Was it to eradicate the threat to Jack?  Or was Hotch just insanely, and understandably, angry?  Does that make it murder?  Was Hotch impaired, in the moment?  Was JJ, in her moment?  Elle?

I liked that we saw some fallout for Elle, after her shooting of the rapist.  I wish we'd see more. Some uncertainty about the appropriateness of the shooting, some discussion of how else it could have been handled.  Maybe even some uncertainty, after the fact, of whether they'd gotten the right person.  Even some discussion about what separates a 'justified' killer from a serial one.  For me, it would inject new life into the series.

I love your post.  I agree with it so much.  

For me, I always believed that Reid is more reckless with his life because he doesn't have anyone at home and nothing to lose.  Whereas, Hotch, for example, killed Foyett because he couldn't lose Jack, too.  At least that was how it played to me.  Yes, he was angry, but he knew that Foyett was dangerous, that he could get out of prison, again, and do the same thing, except this time actually kill Jack, too.  I think the anger and knowing that led Hotch to justify killing Foyett.

As for Rossi and even, Elle, both of them have seen the justice system fail fairly often.  In the Real Rain, Elle even mentions it.  That for me shows a propensity for allowing themselves to kill an unsub because, at the very least, they were getting someone dangerous off the streets.  I think we see both Rossi and Elle kill for revenge.  

I also wish we saw more fallout from whenever they kill an unsub.  An investigation or some sort of comment from the upper people wondering why the Unsub dies in various cases.  Or some sort of discussion among the members.  At the end of LDSK, Gideon told Reid that he did what he had to do, it was necessary.  It would be interesting if there was more discussions like that.  

I feel like the only time we saw fallout was Elle, and a little bit of Hotch when there was the inquiry about what happened with Foyett.  I feel like there should be more.

I would really love to know what is the thought process in each of the team's minds whenever they've had to kill an unsub or whenever they've had to choose talking them down over killing the unsub.  

I would also like to know how they decide the direness of needing to kill the unsub to save lives versus talking them down.  That would be interesting.  Also, agree that a discussion  on what separates a justified killer from a serial one would be interesting.  

[normasm]

14 minutes ago, JMO said:

It is an interesting discussion, in part because the circumstances for each team member have been so varied.

I think that, as people grow older and more experienced, there is a certain amount of practicality that creeps in, and idealism that seeps out.  And I think we see that in the various circumstances where the team members have taken lives.  Reid, for whatever reason, seems to have been given an unusually large dose of idealism, and has lost it only slowly, in increments.  Is that because he has nothing to lose?  No family waiting at home, no specific dreams for the future?  Is that what has made him less likely to end a case by killing the unsub?  Is Rossi more likely, because he's simply seen too much? 

There are obvious reasons to kill an unsub, such as when a victim is in immediate danger.  Reid's done that at least three times that I can think of----the LDSK, once to save Alex Blake, and in season 12, to save Morgan.  So have the others, to save victims and colleagues.  But that raises the question of how immediate is the danger?  Would a moment of negotiation work?  Does the agent care, or would it be just as easy to get everything over with right now?  Are they actually trying to negotiate, or just to distract, to get the better shot?

Do they kill for revenge?  For example, did Rossi draw out Gideon's killer for the purpose of shooting him as a way of avenging the death of his old friend?  Or was he being practical, knowing that the guy had already been killing for decades?  Was it because Rossi had seen the judicial and penal systems fail too often?

Does it happen in the height of emotion, a la Hotch vs. Foyet?  Was that a practical killing, taking out Foyet because he'd already shown an ability to escape?  Was it to eradicate the threat to Jack?  Or was Hotch just insanely, and understandably, angry?  Does that make it murder?  Was Hotch impaired, in the moment?  Was JJ, in her moment?  Elle?

I liked that we saw some fallout for Elle, after her shooting of the rapist.  I wish we'd see more. Some uncertainty about the appropriateness of the shooting, some discussion of how else it could have been handled.  Maybe even some uncertainty, after the fact, of whether they'd gotten the right person.  Even some discussion about what separates a 'justified' killer from a serial one.  For me, it would inject new life into the series.

Lots of good stuff in your post, as usual, JMO. I think Reid always saw himself as a knight, who serves a moral ideal, and tries not to give in to irrational emotion, but rather, serve the Greater Good. His self-image was wrecked last season, and therefore, it makes sense that he would experience a breakdown of that certainty he formerly felt. Hotch always approached from the POV of law enforcement, of restoring order, until all order was lost and he killed a begging Foyet. I think Morgan approached from a protector stance, trying to protect those who were victimized, and stop the monster from continuing, but (usually) not acting out of revenge (I say usually, because he gave a beat-down to several people who preyed on kids, etc.) Gideon, of course, felt a righteous mission to seek why someone is a monster, and try to restore the natural balance of good and evil. 

So, yeah, Elle killed because she knew the guy would get away with the rapes otherwise. Vigilantism. Rossi killed Gideon's murderer to punish, and possibly out of a certainty that he would not see true justice. Revenge. Hotch was terrified in his moment, he didn't know if Jack had survived, and if he had and Foyet had gotten up again, he would have tried to kill him. They tried to make the excuse that JJ was in the throes of PTSD, but i guess I didn't buy that she would kill someone so coldly.

[normasm]

21 minutes ago, JenJenBosco said:

I would really love to know what is the thought process in each of the team's minds whenever they've had to kill an unsub or whenever they've had to choose talking them down over killing the unsub.  

I would also like to know how they decide the direness of needing to kill the unsub to save lives versus talking them down.  That would be interesting.  Also, agree that a discussion  on what separates a justified killer from a serial one would be interesting.  

Reid is the one who, several times, talked an unsub down rather than shoot it out. I also think he has perhaps killed more unsubs than anyone, although I may be off on that.

[JMO]

8 minutes ago, normasm said:

 I think Reid always saw himself as a knight, who serves a moral ideal, and tries not to give in to irrational emotion, but rather, serve the Greater Good. His self-image was wrecked last season, and therefore, it makes sense that he would experience a breakdown of that certainty he formerly felt. Hotch always approached from the POV of law enforcement, of restoring order, until all order was lost and he killed a begging Foyet. I think Morgan approached from a protector stance, trying to protect those who were victimized, and stop the monster from continuing, but (usually) not acting out of revenge (I say usually, because he gave a beat-down to several people who preyed on kids, etc.) Gideon, of course, felt a righteous mission to seek why someone is a monster, and try to restore the natural balance of good and evil. 

So, yeah, Elle killed because she knew the guy would get away with the rapes otherwise. Vigilantism. Rossi killed Gideon's murderer to punish, and possibly out of a certainty that he would not see true justice. Revenge. Hotch was terrified in his moment, he didn't know if Jack had survived, and if he had and Foyet had gotten up again, he would have tried to kill him. They tried to make the excuse that JJ was in the throes of PTSD, but i guess I didn't buy that she would kill someone so coldly.

Excellent analysis, Norm.  I love your description of Reid's self-imposed mission, and think it fits perfectly with what we know of his childhood.  

 

3 minutes ago, normasm said:

Reid is the one who, several times, talked an unsub down rather than shoot it out. I also think he has perhaps killed more unsubs than anyone, although I may be off on that.

Surely, someone has been keeping track.  Any statistics out there?  I feel like Hotch was always good for a kill shot.  Can't think of anyone else who has killed other than by shooting, apart from Hotch.  

[JenJenBosco]

1 minute ago, normasm said:

Reid is the one who, several times, talked an unsub down rather than shoot it out. I also think he has perhaps killed more unsubs than anyone, although I may be off on that.

I have noticed that.  I get the sense that he believes in the justice system, and therefore thinks it's better to talk them down if possible.  I also think that Reid is the member of the team that really relies more on his talking ability and his brain rather than his gun and physical abilities.  He had trouble shooting at first, so I also believe that he'd rather not shoot because he trusts his talking over his shooting...although I think that does start to change over the seasons, but I believe that he prefers talking whenever possible.    Do you agree?

13 minutes ago, normasm said:

Lots of good stuff in your post, as usual, JMO. I think Reid always saw himself as a knight, who serves a moral ideal, and tries not to give in to irrational emotion, but rather, serve the Greater Good. His self-image was wrecked last season, and therefore, it makes sense that he would experience a breakdown of that certainty he formerly felt. Hotch always approached from the POV of law enforcement, of restoring order, until all order was lost and he killed a begging Foyet. I think Morgan approached from a protector stance, trying to protect those who were victimized, and stop the monster from continuing, but (usually) not acting out of revenge (I say usually, because he gave a beat-down to several people who preyed on kids, etc.) Gideon, of course, felt a righteous mission to seek why someone is a monster, and try to restore the natural balance of good and evil. 

So, yeah, Elle killed because she knew the guy would get away with the rapes otherwise. Vigilantism. Rossi killed Gideon's murderer to punish, and possibly out of a certainty that he would not see true justice. Revenge. Hotch was terrified in his moment, he didn't know if Jack had survived, and if he had and Foyet had gotten up again, he would have tried to kill him. They tried to make the excuse that JJ was in the throes of PTSD, but i guess I didn't buy that she would kill someone so coldly.

I also agree with your analysis, I think it makes sense that Reid is a knight fighting for the greater good.  Also, I like your ideas about the rest of the team.

[Annber03]

I also saw a while back that the Sundance channel, of all channels, is going to have a CM marathon later this month, on the 20th. 

[ReidFan]

:(

and I have no such channels, no such access....if I wanna binge watch CM, I gotta do it on the Macbook

[JMO]

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

I also saw a while back that the Sundance channel, of all channels, is going to have a CM marathon later this month, on the 20th. 

Interesting, I didn't know that, but I see it on their schedule now.  Wonder if ION and A&E are continuing.

I can't see my original post on here anymore, so to reiterate:  WeTV will start showing CM with a marathon on December 16.  They've bought rights to ten seasons.

[Annber03]

4 minutes ago, JMO said:

Interesting, I didn't know that, but I see it on their schedule now.  

Yeah, my mom was watching something on Sundance a week or so back and I saw an ad for it :D. If the info on their website is accurate, it looks like they'll be showing episodes from season 4 during that little marathon as well, which, yay :). 

Quote

Wonder if ION and A&E are continuing.

I wondered about that, too. They're bringing "NCIS: LA" and the original "CSI" to their lineup soon, so they'll have to make some room and may wind up shifting some other shows' typical air times around in the process. 

And I haven't seen any CM reruns on A&E for a while now. It's pretty much all reality programming at this point. Don't know if they'll go back to showing reruns on there at some point or not. 

Rewatching season one today on ION has made me go back and reread some of the conversations about it here, and I've been wanting to comment on some of the recent good points and discussions that have been made here. Will try and do that perhaps tomorrow at some point. 

[JenJenBosco]

On 12/4/2017 at 4:00 PM, ReidFan said:

:(

and I have no such channels, no such access....if I wanna binge watch CM, I gotta do it on the Macbook

You can always binge watch on Netflix.  It works.

[JenJenBosco]

On 12/4/2017 at 5:21 PM, Annber03 said:

Rewatching season one today on ION has made me go back and reread some of the conversations about it here, and I've been wanting to comment on some of the recent good points and discussions that have been made here. Will try and do that perhaps tomorrow at some point. 

That sounds great!  I love the discussions that have been happening.

[ReidFan]

12 minutes ago, JenJenBosco said:

You can always binge watch on Netflix.  It works.

I'm in Canada. Netflix doesn't have CM up this way.....

[JenJenBosco]

Just now, ReidFan said:

I'm in Canada. Netflix doesn't have CM up this way.....

Really?  That's surprising, although I did notice when I went to Belize that Netflix had different shows and some shows available in the US weren't available there.  I'm sorry about that.  I wonder where else in Canada you might be able to watch?  Besides having to buy the DVDs.

[ReidFan]

like I said, I have most of the dvds and all the episodes downloaded, so it's not like I'm completely deprived :) but this is why Netflix doesn't have me as a customer.

[JenJenBosco]

So, I am watching Somebody's Watching today.

I have to say that I think Spencer is totally adorable in this episode, and I love the teasing between Morgan and Reid about Lila.  I love Gideon's uncomfortableness at the woman hitting on him.  Although I was annoyed that he interrupted Spencer learning about art from Lila.  He's too cute.

Also, "Do I look 12 years old to you?"  "Maybe 14."

I loved that it was a different start, and shows that they do other things like seminars for police departments.  I loved the focus on the victim and victims in this one, rather than too much on the unsub.  

I liked the different take on a stalker case turning into a delusional assassin.  It's interesting the Spencer gets involved with a stalker victim when in the future he does the same thing with Maeve.  Also, it's interesting that the assume it's a male (just like with Maeve) and it turns out to be a woman.  

I love the moment between Spencer and Lila about the drink, and Spencer watches her away and notices that Morgan sees him watching her.  Morgan walks over and says, "You don't mind sharing with me, do you?"

Spencer's looking away, and takes a drink and tells him to shut up.  I think it's funny.

I also loved Morgan concern for Reid when he sees the photos of him with Lila.

I liked the collage thing, and how that was a key to the puzzle.  I liked that Spencer was probably the only could see it.  I don't think anyone else could have seen it.

"I'm not going to just stop living my life.  I'm just not."  -The exact opposite of Maeve, which I find interesting.

"Lila, I'm begging of you, will you please just get out of the pool?"

"Really, Spence, you should live a little." -> I've listened twice, I think she does say Spence, so it's not only JJ and Maeve, after all.

"Live a little?  I've known you 48 hours and I feel like I've aged ten years!"

"Uh, I can't be that bad."

"Yes, No, you are that bad."

"Fine, will you help me out at least?" -> I can't believe he fell for that.  

I like that he tries to be honorable, but clearly, fails.

I really enjoy when there are misdirects in the unsub, I like that we see Mags in the beginning of the show...but don't know that it's her until the end, although it should have been obvious since she gave her the notes and had access.  

"How'd she get in the house?"

"She has keys." -> Don't give keys to friends...they might be stalkers.

I liked that Spencer took her down peacefully, and even when she was begging for him to kill her, he still got her help instead.

"Lila, believe me when I say this, I've never known a normal day in my entire life." -> totally true of what we know of Spencer.

I loved the last two scenes.  The one with Lila and Spencer, Spencer and Morgan.  They were cute.

"There's some things you can't control, even with that big old brain of yours.  No Harm, No Foul."  

I loved the comment on relationships being hard enough on the team.  Shows why most of them are single, and I think that makes a lot of sense.

Up next: Machismo.

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

I liked the different take on a stalker case turning into a delusional assassin.  It's interesting the Spencer gets involved with a stalker victim when in the future he does the same thing with Maeve.  Also, it's interesting that the assume it's a male (just like with Maeve) and it turns out to be a woman.  

Quote

"I'm not going to just stop living my life.  I'm just not."  -The exact opposite of Maeve, which I find interesting.

To this day, I'm still surprised that the show didn't bring up comparisons to Lila during the whole Maeve storyline. It would've been so interesting to see Reid use or reflect on the lessons he would've learned from his experience with Lila, and see how that could've helped, or hurt, his chances at saving Maeve. And the team could've made mention of that case as well, fitting the situation with Maggie and Lila into their knowledge about stalkers, and how likely they are to be violent. Total missed opportunity there. 

I like your observation of how Lila handled any possible fear regarding her stalker in comparison to Maeve, too. I'd never really thought about that before. Good way to show the variety of responses among victims. 

Quote

"Fine, will you help me out at least?" -> I can't believe he fell for that.  

Haha,  I thought that the first time I saw the episode, too :D. I was like, "Really, Reid?" Sweet that he tried to help her regardless, though. 

Quote

I like that he tries to be honorable, but clearly, fails.

Mmhm. I like how he wrestles with his obvious attraction to her throughout the episode, and even after kissing her in the pool, he still puts a stop to things before they go TOO much farther. Morgan reassuring him about his interest in Lila in the end is a nice touch*, a sweet balance to his fun big brother-type teasing of him throughout (I love that "You don't mind sharing with me?" bit, too :p). 

*I think about their conversation in this episode during the time in season 5 when Morgan hangs out with Tamara Barnes. Could've made for an interesting conversation between Reid and Morgan there, too. Especially since, in Morgan's case, he's acting unit chief at that time. 

Quote

I really enjoy when there are misdirects in the unsub, I like that we see Mags in the beginning of the show...but don't know that it's her until the end, although it should have been obvious since she gave her the notes and had access.  

Yeah, I like that, too. Very subtle. Most of us would naturally default to thinking it was a male stalker, too, so that makes the reveal that much more surprising. 

Quote

 

"How'd she get in the house?"

"She has keys." -> Don't give keys to friends...they might be stalkers.

 

For some reason, the way Lila says that amuses me. Here she's just learned that her friend is a dangerous stalker and is now in her house, and yet she doesn't seem at all fazed by this. 

I also laugh at the way Maggie says, "...what?" when Reid tells her Lila loves him now. 

Quote

I liked that Spencer took her down peacefully, and even when she was begging for him to kill her, he still got her help instead.

YES :). A perfect example of Reid's compassion in action, right there. And the fact he could take Maggie down peacefully, yet couldn't save Maeve from Diane...again, a heartbreaking contrast in outcomes. 

I like this episode, too :). Like you said, Reid is so freaking cute in this. I wrote a fic once exploring how a reunion between Reid and Lila would've played out. It was fun. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Annber03

[JenJenBosco]

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

To this day, I'm still surprised that the show didn't bring up comparisons to Lila during the whole Maeve storyline. It would've been so interesting to see Reid use or reflect on the lessons he would've learned from his experience with Lila, and see how that could've helped, or hurt, his chances at saving Maeve. And the team could've made mention of that case as well, fitting the situation with Maggie and Lila into their knowledge about stalkers, and how likely they are to be violent. Total missed opportunity there. 

I like your observation of how Lila handled any possible fear regarding her stalker in comparison to Maeve, too. I'd never really thought about that before. Good way to show the variety of responses among victims. 

I really wish they had used Lila as a comparison point in the Maeve situation because they dealt with the same thing in different ways.  Spencer should have learned Something From this situation with Lila that could have applied to the Maeve situation.  It's interesting that they managed to make Lila and Maeve so different in response.  I still wished he'd saved Maeve.  Also, I wish they had made the comparison to Cindy (Morgan's cousin) who also had a stalker and chose to run and the woman in the Crossing, who moved away to attempt to diffuse the situation, only for him to follow her.  

I always find it interesting that the police can't do anything about stalkers until they do something.  Even the fact that Lila didn't know she had a stalker can show how easy it is to be oblivious to the possible danger.

I also love that in the stalker situations we see on the show, they are different kinds of stalkers.  Maggie was in love with Lila, while Diane was jealous and wanted to be Maeve not be with her.  I don't know, I just really wished they had brought about Lila when dealing with Maeve.

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Mmhm. I like how he wrestles with his obvious attraction to her throughout the episode, and even after kissing her in the pool, he still puts a stop to things before they go TOO much farther. Morgan reassuring him about his interest in Lila in the end is a nice touch*, a sweet balance to his fun big brother-type teasing of him throughout (I love that "You don't mind sharing with me?" bit, too :p). 

*I think about their conversation in this episode during the time in season 5 when Morgan hangs out with Tamara Barnes. Could've made for an interesting conversation between Reid and Morgan there, too. Especially since, in Morgan's case, he's acting unit chief at that time. 

I love that it was made clear that Lila and Spencer were attracted to each other before she became a victim, it shows that she didn't just like him because he saved her life.  Also, I love his total confusion of this girl hitting on him, and he's got this look like, 'wait, is this actually happening'/

Like I said before, I love the big brother-ness in this episode.  Sometimes I see it, sometimes I don't, but here, like in Derailed, I definitely do.

I really wish there had been conversation between the two when Morgan was crossing the professional line, especially because he was the one that said 'No Harm, No Foul', I wonder if he was thinking that when he dealt with Tamara.  

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Yeah, I like that, too. Very subtle. Most of us would naturally default to thinking it was a male stalker, too, so that makes the reveal that much more surprising. 

For some reason, the way Lila says that amuses me. Here she's just learned that her friend is a dangerous stalker and is now in her house, and yet she doesn't seem at all fazed by this. 

I also laugh at the way Maggie says, "...what?" when Reid tells her Lila loves him now. 

YES :). A perfect example of Reid's compassion in action, right there. And the fact he could take Maggie down peacefully, yet couldn't save Maeve from Diane...again, a heartbreaking contrast in outcomes. 

I like this episode, too :). Like you said, Reid is so freaking cute in this. I wrote a fic once exploring how a reunion between Reid and Lila would've played out. It was fun. 

Yes, I love the natural default being wrong.  Sometimes, we assume the wrong thing, which is why when I first watched I was surprised.

I also love Lila's non reaction to finding out her best friend is her dangerous stalker.

And again, I wish the outcome had been different, he could have taken down Diane, too, but I think being more emotionally involved hurt his chances at saving Maeve. -> there's a reason people personally involved aren't allowed to work the case.  Although, I feel like they don't follow that rule much.

Yes, Spencer is adorable....And I would love to read your reunion story.  I think that would be interesting.  I'm surprised that she's never mentioned when they go to LA.

[normasm]

Interesting conversation. I think of Lila being a young, open, pretty girl who learned her looks could take her places (not in a vacuous or mindless quest for fame, but more like she wanted to get out and conquer the world and she knew she possessed certain equipment for the job). Maeve was older, had always been studious, quiet and shy, and thought her main value was her mind. She wasn't nearly as trusting of people as Lila, and Lila didn't trust very willingly. Lila was physically, then emotionally drawn to Reid. Maeve was psychologically, then emotionally drawn to Reid. 

Their stalkers were different, as some have said here. Mags was an erotomanic stalker, fancied herself in love with Lila, and Lila in love with her. Diane stalked Maeve out of a thwarted sense of pride, envy. She herself said "I want what she has." She stole one boyfriend, and when she found Maeve had another, had to have him, too. 

Cindee, by contrast, was stalked by a male, and was pulled into a relationship with a horribly dangerous person while on the run, if I remember that correctly. Her captor imprisoned her mind and her body, and never thought that she loved him, and certainly didn't love her. Cary (The Crossing) was also stalked by a male who was obsessed in the same way Mags was, he was convinced she loved him.

[JenJenBosco]

6 minutes ago, normasm said:

Interesting conversation. I think of Lila being a young, open, pretty girl who learned her looks could take her places (not in a vacuous or mindless quest for fame, but more like she wanted to get out and conquer the world and she knew she possessed certain equipment for the job). Maeve was older, had always been studious, quiet and shy, and thought her main value was her mind. She wasn't nearly as trusting of people as Lila, and Lila didn't trust very willingly. Lila was physically, then emotionally drawn to Reid. Maeve was psychologically, then emotionally drawn to Reid. 

Their stalkers were different, as some have said here. Mags was an erotomanic stalker, fancied herself in love with Lila, and Lila in love with her. Diane stalked Maeve out of a thwarted sense of pride, envy. She herself said "I want what she has." She stole one boyfriend, and when she found Maeve had another, had to have him, too. 

Cindee, by contrast, was stalked by a male, and was pulled into a relationship with a horribly dangerous person while on the run, if I remember that correctly. Her captor imprisoned her mind and her body, and never thought that she loved him, and certainly didn't love her. Cary (The Crossing) was also stalked by a male who was obsessed in the same way Mags was, he was convinced she loved him.

I like your comparison for Lila to Maeve.  It's definitely true.  I never saw either one of them as very trusting, and both had reasons not to be.  I also agree about the ways that they were drawn to Spencer.  I understand the differences in their stalkers, and feel that it would be interesting if the show had discussed the differences.

Just like the comparison between Cary and Cindee, both of whom had men following them who believed the women were in love with them.  

However, I was comparing their responses as victims: Lila refused to stop living her life, Maeve went into hiding (although stayed in the area), Cindee decided to go into hiding away from home (hoping he wouldn't follow her), and Cary moved elsewhere, but didn't go into hiding, instead continued her life.

That's something that is interesting to me.  The different responses by the victims, since the stalkers are relatively the same all of them were in love with the victim (aside from Maeve's).  It's interesting how easy it is to fall into this situation, and yet not know what the right answer is in terms of response.  Would it be better to run, to hide, or to continue living regardless.  

It's interesting that regardless of it being a male or female stalker, the situation really shows a lot about the victim.

[normasm]

3 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

However, I was comparing their responses as victims: Lila refused to stop living her life, Maeve went into hiding (although stayed in the area), Cindee decided to go into hiding away from home (hoping he wouldn't follow her), and Cary moved elsewhere, but didn't go into hiding, instead continued her life.

That's something that is interesting to me.  The different responses by the victims, since the stalkers are relatively the same all of them were in love with the victim (aside from Maeve's).  It's interesting how easy it is to fall into this situation, and yet not know what the right answer is in terms of response.  Would it be better to run, to hide, or to continue living regardless.  

It's interesting that regardless of it being a male or female stalker, the situation really shows a lot about the victim.

Yeah, I was saying that open, pretty, independent Lila was not as likely to be cowed into giving up her freedom for safety, while shy, intellectual, lonely Maeve would plausibly be terrified, as she was. Cary was scared enough to turn her entire life upside down, leave her job and her home, and skedaddle. I think that qualifies totally for hiding. Cindee was "captured" by another stalker, who threatened her family, and made sure she stayed threatened. She didn't succeed in hiding out. 

In my view, only Lila, because she was young and had never really felt much threat but the relentless push for publicity using her image - only she didn't flee, because she didn't realize she was under threat until the BAU told her that people had been killed who might be "in her way."

Edited December 19, 2017 by normasm

[JenJenBosco]

1 minute ago, normasm said:

Yeah, I was saying that open, pretty, independent Lila was not as likely to be cowed into giving up her freedom for safety, while shy, intellectual, lonely Maeve would plausibly be terrified, as she was. Cary was scared enough to turn her entire life upside down, leave her job and her home, and skedaddle. I think that qualifies totally for hiding. Cindee was "captured" by another stalker, who threatened her family, and made sure she stayed threatened. She didn't succeed in hiding out. 

In my view, only Lila, because she was young and had never really felt much threat but the relentless push for publicity using her image, only she didn't flee, because she didn't realize she was under threat until the BAU told her that people had been killed who might be "in her way."

Ah I see now.  I understand that Cary running could be considered hiding just like Cindee, but both were looking to start their lives over elsewhere...continue to work,have friends, have a life, in Cary's case, a husband, whereas Maeve completely cut herself off in hiding (Did she even talk to her parents?) and rarely even went outside.  To me that's a little more like hiding, than the other two.  

Although I do agree about Lila, even if she, like Maeve or Cary, had gotten letters or threats for months, I doubt she'd go into hiding or start her life elsewhere.  Lila was the most likely to continue on with her life, regardless.  I do understand why Maeve and Lila acted so differently, and their reactions made complete sense for their personalities.

Also, was Cindee's stalker husband the same stalker that caused her to run because that's what I assumed, that she tried to run, but it didn't make it very far.  Instead, he saw she was running and attacked knowing that no one would come looking for her?  (Because Morgan told her that she had to completely cut herself off).  Also, I am aware that Cindee didn't succeed, I was merely stating that she tried to run, even if she failed.

[normasm]

Yeah, Maeve talked to her parents. They bought the apartment in their name and set her up there. And yes, she was definitely terrified more than Lila, went farther into hiding than Cary, and there is no comparison to Cindee for this reaction, as Cindee had no choice from the point Malcolm got hold of her. (And yes, I'm not sure her "husband" was her original stalker, but i think he was). 

Lila, once Michael was killed, pretty much folded into the BAU, into Reid, didn't realize Mags was a threat, and was clueless until it came up in her face.

[JenJenBosco]

I knew they set her up in the apartment in their name, but I didn't know if she still talked them after that because it's been so long since I watched the Maeve arc.  

The comparison to Cindee was that she knew she was being stalked, and threatened, at least that's what I remember.  I thought she found out she was stalked and asked for help, and Morgan told her to move, cut herself off from the family, and not contact anyone, even when she got to safety.  The problem was that her stalker captured her before she could get away.  Also, I am fairly certain her stalker and her "husband" are one in the same.  Although I concede that perhaps Cindee doesn't belong in the comparison.

Also, yes, the FBI was already helping by the time Micheal was killed.  However, even after she was told, they wanted her to go to a safe house, but she wasn't interested.  

Edited December 20, 2017 by JenJenBosco

[amercakes]

I just finished rewatching Season 1.  I can't remember individual episodes half as well as most people on here seem to!  I guess I'm more of a casual watcher, although I thought it was interesting how many of these episodes I actually remembered once I started watching them, even though I haven't seen them in 12 years.  I guess they really made an impression, because at the time, I think the show was so different from anything else on TV in that it really got into the minds of the criminals.  I agree with a lot of the observations from @JenJenBosco, especially about Garcia.  I like how, in Season 1, she's competent at her job, but she's not this invincible or infallible computer expert/hacker she becomes later. 

On a shallow note: JJ's hair is much better by the end of the season than it was at the beginning.  (It really bugged me at the beginning.)

Interesting talk about Elle.  I never really liked her all that much, but I didn't hate her by any means.  Gideon also used to really get on my nerves, but I found myself appreciating him much more this time through. 

I just finished rewatching Season 1.  I can't remember individual episodes half as well as most people on here seem to!  I guess I'm more of a casual watcher, although I thought it was interesting how many of these episodes I actually remembered once I started watching them, even though I haven't seen them in 12 years.  I guess they really made an impression, because at the time, I think the show was so different from anything else on TV in that it really got into the minds of the criminals.  I agree with a lot of the observations from @JenJenBosco, especially about Garcia.  I like how, in Season 1, she's competent at her job, but she's not this invincible or infallible computer expert/hacker she becomes later.

On a shallow note: JJ's hair is much better by the end of the season than it was at the beginning.  (It really bugged me at the beginning.)

Interesting talk about Elle.  I never really liked her all that much, but I didn't hate her by any means.  Gideon also used to really get on my nerves, but I found myself appreciating him much more this time through. 

[JenJenBosco]

11 hours ago, amercakes said:

I just finished rewatching Season 1.  I can't remember individual episodes half as well as most people on here seem to!  I guess I'm more of a casual watcher, although I thought it was interesting how many of these episodes I actually remembered once I started watching them, even though I haven't seen them in 12 years.  I guess they really made an impression, because at the time, I think the show was so different from anything else on TV in that it really got into the minds of the criminals.  I agree with a lot of the observations from @JenJenBosco, especially about Garcia.  I like how, in Season 1, she's competent at her job, but she's not this invincible or infallible computer expert/hacker she becomes later. 

On a shallow note: JJ's hair is much better by the end of the season than it was at the beginning.  (It really bugged me at the beginning.)

Interesting talk about Elle.  I never really liked her all that much, but I didn't hate her by any means.  Gideon also used to really get on my nerves, but I found myself appreciating him much more this time through. 

I've been writing my replies as I watch each episode, which is why I remember the details and the names of the episodes.  I definitely think think the same about JJ's hair as well.  

Anyway, I am still in season one, Machismo is next when I get the chance.

[JenJenBosco]

Machismo:

First, I find it odd that an FBI team can travel across the border or that they would be sent across the border.  

I totally laugh at Hotch not knowing what to do with Jack.  "You're holding him like a cantaloupe."  "What you think you can do better?" -> I always wonder how Jessica feels about him staying with the job and her having to job everything to take care of Jack after what happens to Haley.

I always thought Haley started having problems with Hotch's job after the fisher king, did not realize it was shown in the first season as well.  "It's your wife."  I understand her frustrations, and Gideon shouldn't have called Hotch, but on the other hand, her passive aggressiveness is unnecessary and only furthers the problem.  Also, note that Gideon was never going to let Hotch go back home after a couple of hours for the briefing, as he says, "Hotch, call her from the car."

I liked the relation of what Hotch was dealing with to the theme of family with the case.  I also feeling like Spencer can learn to read, write, and understand a foreign language, but can't speak it.  That makes sense, given that he learns from books and not experience.  I liked his look at Elle, to get it right after she says, "Face it, you're only a Genius in English."

I loved that Garcia distracted things, and then "Do you want my genius or not?"  and Elle's response, "Yes, get on with it." -> she clearly wants to focus on work.

I liked the profile, half the team was sitting and it felt more like a conversation.  I like the craziness at the misunderstanding at the station...sometimes, it happens.  It's nice that things aren't perfect.  It's also interesting that it feels like they had two profile type scenes.  

I also liked that Elle had a unique contribution by being able to speak to the people since she knows Spanish.   I also liked that Elle and JJ were helpful due to being women because of the type of case.  I also liked that the women who was the stressor was a fighter and convinced others to speak out.  It's an interesting commentary about rape since many women struggle with coming forward with it because they don't believe that anything would be done.  

I have found this case as a good case.  There was a lot of discussion about the man that's responsible for the crimes, and I really enjoy the discussions in multiple scenes.  I like the organisation of the Man, and that it wasn't just random killing in a spree like many serial killers seem to do lately.  

I don't know how I feel about the ending though.

Up next: Charm and Harm.

[JenJenBosco]

Charm and Harm:

We see the unsub from the very beginning in this one with his victims.  I liked the beginning scene at the BAU:

Elle: What?

Morgan: We've only been here an hour. You've made 2 calls.

Elle: And?

Morgan: You hate the phone, Elle.

Elle: I don't hate the phone.

Spencer: Actually, you do. Did you know that alexander graham bell and eli gray Simultaneously invented electronic sound transmission devices? It came down to a race betwixt the two.

Elle: Yes, and bell beat gray to the patent office by a matter of hours. Common knowledge.

Morgan: Why are you acting so weird?

Elle: We're sitting with a guy who knows That there are 800 kernels of corn On the average cob...

Spencer: Ranged in 16 separate rows.

Elle: And you're calling me weird?

Morgan: You're getting some loving, aren't you.  I knew it. You got a boyfriend.

Elle: You are basing this on what exactly, That I don't like the phone? That's all you got, that's your best?  You've been a profiler for how long, derek, and that's-That's weak.

JJ: What's weak?

Spencer: Morgan thinks Elle has a boyfriend.      Elle: Nothing

Morgan: Nothing. See!  You just denied it.

JJ: Do you? 

Elle: It's more fun not to answer that question.

Morgan: That right there is a yes, baby. I knew it. I told you.

Spencer: She doesn't want to admit to anything, man. Reid, trust me. You've got a lot to learn.

I liked that there were still able to have a thoughtful discussion on the killer, even knowing who he was from the beginning.  I liked the pairings in this one.  Having Elle and Morgan on a road-trip was very interesting.  I liked their banter that started at the beginning and continued throughout the road-trip.

I like Hotch's discussion with the ex wife, and Spencer and Gideon's discussion with the father.  It's funny that Spencer had to remind Gideon that the father wasn't the unsub.  Because the father protected him and he didn't have to take responsibility.  

I liked the banter behind Hotch and Garcia in this one.  It was enjoyable.

"I'm sorry are you saying that a ten year old killed his own mom."

"Well, it is a common theory that boys fixate on their mothers since they are their introduction to love."

"And if that mother had a negative influence on him, in this case she was an adulteress, it not only invalidated the father, but also the son."

This conversation that continues on with the whole team on the phone, is interesting, especially because this theme continues on in many serial killers.  It's weird that his father knew what happened, and let it continue on, protecting him...just like the mother in blood hungry.

It's disturbing that he killed his mother at ten...how many people did he kill before he was found out?  

Also, I liked that the last one was a fighter.  That she was looking for a way to save herself, instead of hoping for the authorities to save her.  -> I really enjoy the fighters.

I also liked the camera angles when he tries to kill someone, it's partially shown from the victims point of view.  

Morgan shot the Unsub this time...is this the first time he killed the unsub?  I can't remember.  

Up Next: Secret and Lies

[smoker]

2 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

Machismo:

First, I find it odd that an FBI team can travel across the border or that they would be sent across the border.  

I totally laugh at Hotch not knowing what to do with Jack.  "You're holding him like a cantaloupe."  "What you think you can do better?" -> I always wonder how Jessica feels about him staying with the job and her having to job everything to take care of Jack after what happens to Haley.

I always thought Haley started having problems with Hotch's job after the fisher king, did not realize it was shown in the first season as well.  "It's your wife."  I understand her frustrations, and Gideon shouldn't have called Hotch, but on the other hand, her passive aggressiveness is unnecessary and only furthers the problem.  Also, note that Gideon was never going to let Hotch go back home after a couple of hours for the briefing, as he says, "Hotch, call her from the car."

 

I also liked that Elle had a unique contribution by being able to speak to the people since she knows Spanish.   I also liked that Elle and JJ were helpful due to being women because of the type of case. 

And it's Hotch's birthday!! xD

This is an odd episode, I don't like much the case but I love Elle for every reason you have already said. And I love Hotch's interaction with his family and Gideon. This episode tells a lot about the future of his relationships with Haley and Rossi.

Gideon always took advantage of his seniority and relationship with Hotch to undermine/overtake his authority as unit chief, but he didn't take responsibility  when things went south. I remember when I saw Hotch setting boundaries with Rossi after he came back, I thought He didn't want the same situation he went through with Gideon again.

Not commenting anything about Haley or Jessica, I am afraid I could be rambling about it endlessly xP

[JenJenBosco]

51 minutes ago, smoker said:

And it's Hotch's birthday!! xD

This is an odd episode, I don't like much the case but I love Elle for every reason you have already said. And I love Hotch's interaction with his family and Gideon. This episode tells a lot about the future of his relationships with Haley and Rossi.

Gideon always took advantage of his seniority and relationship with Hotch to undermine/overtake his authority as unit chief, but he didn't take responsibility  when things went south. I remember when I saw Hotch setting boundaries with Rossi after he came back, I thought He didn't want the same situation he went through with Gideon again.

Not commenting anything about Haley or Jessica, I am afraid I could be rambling about it endlessly xP

I never really considered how this episode could forecast his relationships with Haley and Rossi, could you explain a little more?  Also, Yes, I do think Gideon played on Hotch's respect for him too much, and knew that Hotch would do whatever Gideon thought was best.  

I'd love to hear your thoughts about this situation with Haley and Jessica because I have always wondered how Jessica feels about Hotch going back to work after losing Haley.  I also wondered how that conversation went, and what other people thought or think about Hotch's decision.  

Also, yes, it was his birthday.  He took off, he should be allowed to take off.  FYI, at my company, your birthday is considered a paid holiday.  -> given there drop everything and go philosophy at the BAU, this should be the case for the BAU.

[secnarf]

On 2017-12-23 at 8:13 PM, JenJenBosco said:

I never really considered how this episode could forecast his relationships with Haley and Rossi, could you explain a little more?  Also, Yes, I do think Gideon played on Hotch's respect for him too much, and knew that Hotch would do whatever Gideon thought was best.  

I'd love to hear your thoughts about this situation with Haley and Jessica because I have always wondered how Jessica feels about Hotch going back to work after losing Haley.  I also wondered how that conversation went, and what other people thought or think about Hotch's decision.  

Also, yes, it was his birthday.  He took off, he should be allowed to take off.  FYI, at my company, your birthday is considered a paid holiday.  -> given there drop everything and go philosophy at the BAU, this should be the case for the BAU.

It’s the companies with that sort of philosophy- and those whose work is life and death - that are likely to frown on taking your birthday off. It’s unprofessional; these are adults, not five year olds, and their work doesn’t stop just because it’s their birthday. 

[JenJenBosco]

Just now, secnarf said:

It’s the companies with that sort of philosophy- and those whose work is life and death - that are likely to frown on taking your birthday off. It’s unprofessional; these are adults, not five year olds, and their work doesn’t stop just because it’s their birthday. 

I understand that.  I suppose it's different for life or death, but they did approve his vacation time, and he has an entire team of people that can work without him.  

Just because you're an adult doesn't mean you might not like your birthday off, most companies don't think about it, but I can imagine that some people do plan their vacation time to include their birthday.  Although, maybe I just think that way because the owner of my company said that when he worked for someone else, he didn't like working his birthday, which was why when he started his own company, he made the employee's birthday a holiday.  -> I think the idea is that work is work, no one likes to work all of the time, and even less when they have something to celebrate.  

My biggest point is that he took the time off...he requested it, they approved it, and Gideon should never have called him, especially because it was his birthday.

I mean, it's different than Spencer, who was working on his birthday, didn't ask for it off, they had the cake for him, but when it was interrupted, no one said anything because he didn't request it off.  If he had been at home, and got called in, he would have gone in because he didn't take it off. -> completely different than Hotch's situation, as he asked for the time off.

I don't think it's unprofessional at all, and I don't think it should be frowned on.  It's not frowned on to have Christmas off or New Year's or any other typical office holidays, and if you have vacation time, it should be allowed.

But maybe that's just me.

[secnarf]

43 minutes ago, JenJenBosco said:

I understand that.  I suppose it's different for life or death, but they did approve his vacation time, and he has an entire team of people that can work without him.  

Just because you're an adult doesn't mean you might not like your birthday off, most companies don't think about it, but I can imagine that some people do plan their vacation time to include their birthday.  Although, maybe I just think that way because the owner of my company said that when he worked for someone else, he didn't like working his birthday, which was why when he started his own company, he made the employee's birthday a holiday.  -> I think the idea is that work is work, no one likes to work all of the time, and even less when they have something to celebrate.  

My biggest point is that he took the time off...he requested it, they approved it, and Gideon should never have called him, especially because it was his birthday.

I mean, it's different than Spencer, who was working on his birthday, didn't ask for it off, they had the cake for him, but when it was interrupted, no one said anything because he didn't request it off.  If he had been at home, and got called in, he would have gone in because he didn't take it off. -> completely different than Hotch's situation, as he asked for the time off.

I don't think it's unprofessional at all, and I don't think it should be frowned on.  It's not frowned on to have Christmas off or New Year's or any other typical office holidays, and if you have vacation time, it should be allowed.

But maybe that's just me.

It's different to say that someone booked vacation time and it was approved - that has nothing to do with it being their birthday. Their birthday should have no bearing on anything, as it does not affect their ability to do their job.

And again, in a life or death job, you don't always get Christmas or New Year's off. You sometimes get called in on your time off. That's the nature of the job. I work in a hospital, and in my job, we are never off. We rotate holidays and call, but given that we all have different areas of specialty, we are never truly off and can be called at any time, even when you have booked vacation time. That's just the nature of the work that we do.

[JenJenBosco]

59 minutes ago, secnarf said:

It's different to say that someone booked vacation time and it was approved - that has nothing to do with it being their birthday. Their birthday should have no bearing on anything, as it does not affect their ability to do their job.

And again, in a life or death job, you don't always get Christmas or New Year's off. You sometimes get called in on your time off. That's the nature of the job. I work in a hospital, and in my job, we are never off. We rotate holidays and call, but given that we all have different areas of specialty, we are never truly off and can be called at any time, even when you have booked vacation time. That's just the nature of the work that we do.

I understand that, really I do.  Maybe I am coming from a different perspective, but I do understand.  However, Gideon could have handled it without him, I never saw a reason why Hotch, himself was needed, to be completely honest, and as Haley said to her sister, he took time off, so Gideon should have tried to do it without him.  

However, I do also find the series has made it clear -up until the later seasons- that none of them could really take time off...although I believe Morgan took time off in season two (a week) and it's stated that he does it every year, which suggests that it is allowed.  Anyways, I concede.  I know have cops in the family, I know about holidays and so forth, my main argument was that I was under the impression that he took earned vacation time off. -> although as you stated that might not mean much in their -or your - line of work.

[smoker]

Well I have to say the first time I read that part of your comment JJB, I thought I misunderstood the "bithday - holiday" thing. But I see, after reading secnarf comment I didn't. Obviously it's very weird. I don't know any company which gives such benefit, I am not saying it isn't possible, but the usual way is 

12 hours ago, secnarf said:

that someone booked vacation time and it was approved - that has nothing to do with it being their birthday

as you both have already said.

About being on or off call, that's a touchy matter. Being a surgeon (trauma, neuro, cardio...) is one of the most extreme examples, I guess it depends on the amount of surgeons and if there is a great number of emergencies related that day. 

And that's what I think about the subjet from my real life point of view.

 

Now, Gideon and Hotch, I think Hotch presence was unnecessary because Gideon was there and had "acting chief" seniority. Moreover, the case wasn't worse than others they had worked before.

Other thoughts:

I didn't remember Morgan taking time off to spend his birthday with his family, you're right JJB. However, I remember their holiday time in "The fisher king part 1" or Rossi in "Zoe's reprise", he was doing a tour as a writer or something like that. Let's not talk about the crap storylines of Rossi's time off to be a family man because they make me throw up a little bit in my mouth.

There are other moments when characters have been absent due to actors being off (AJ Cook's pregnancies). Anyway, I found it interesting as a part of the narrative, an useful resource which could have been used more wisely. Just like the times  the team was divided working two cases, someone stayed behind or was doing something else when got involved in a crime scene.

 

Finally, Gideon was very oblivious and insensitive. Rossi was aware of people having lives and I think he was always more supportive even in his early days (early as in season 3 hehe).

I have always seen Rossi as a workaholic because of his ambition while Gideon was that way because it was his nature and both ignored their families.

Edited December 26, 2017 by smoker

[JenJenBosco]

2 hours ago, smoker said:

Well I have to say the first time I read that part of your comment JJB, I thought I misunderstood the "bithday - holiday" thing. But I see, after reading secnarf comment I didn't. Obviously it's very weird. I don't know any company which gives such benefit, I am not saying it isn't possible, but the usual way is 

I don't I explained what I was trying to explain properly...my company is different since it is a bonus that he feels is necessary -> I don't know any other company that does it.  We were only 50 people, now we're 150 -> we merged with another company recently, and maybe that was why he felt it as something doable.

What I was trying to say, was that many people I know purposely take their vacation time (or an extended weekend) around their birthday, therefore, they would take their Paid Vacation Time not just don't show up because of their birthday -> they take it as part of their vacation time.  -> I still don't know if I am making sense, so I am going to stop.

2 hours ago, smoker said:

 

I didn't remember Morgan taking time off to spend his birthday with his family, you're right JJB. However, I remember their holiday time in "The fisher king part 1" or Rossi in "Zoe's reprise", he was doing a tour as a writer or something like that. Let's not talk about the crap storylines of Rossi's time off to be a family man because they make me throw up a little bit in my mouth.

There are other moments when characters have been absent due to actors being off (AJ Cook's pregnancies). Anyway, I found it interesting as a part of the narrative, an useful resource which could have been used more wisely. Just like the times  the team was divided working two cases, someone stayed behind or was doing something else when got involved in a crime scene.

Morgan didn't take off for his birthday, it is stated in Profiler-Profiled that he takes off every year for his Mother's birthday every year.  Also, isn't there a few other times where other members take off?  Like you mentioned, Rossi, and I think Hotch takes Jack to Disney World, and Reid takes off for his mother, JJ takes off for maternity leave, Elle is off for recuperation (although that's different), I feel like there could have been a discussion like only one of them could be off at a time, unless it's like "Fisher King".

 

2 hours ago, smoker said:

Finally, Gideon was very oblivious and insensitive. Rossi was aware of people having lives and I think he was always more supportive even in his early days (early as in season 3 hehe).

I have always seen Rossi as a workaholic because of his ambition while Gideon was that way because it was his nature and both ignored their families.

I get what you're saying.  Neither Gideon nor Rossi care much about their families, and Gideon, especially, did not understand that Hotch was trying to be a family man.  And since it wasn't a particularly bad case, and Gideon took the lead anyway, why did Hotch need to be there?  -> I think that's what I am focusing on.  

 

Again, Sorry if I'm confusing you guys about the holiday-birthday thing, and whether Hotch took the time off as vacation time or not, sometimes, I am not that great at explaining things.

[smoker]

6 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

I still don't know if I am making sense, so I am going to stop.

Again, Sorry if I'm confusing you guys about the holiday-birthday thing, and whether Hotch took the time off as vacation time or not, sometimes, I am not that great at explaining things.

Don't worry, you're making sense, I didn't get it at first, but I think I do now :)

 

Sorry, you're right, it was his mother's birthday. I'm not fond of that episode, well, I am fond of Gideon and Hotch. Actually Gideon was more supportive than Hotch in this one, but Morgan lied to him!

 

6 hours ago, JenJenBosco said:

Hotch takes Jack to Disney World, and Reid takes off for his mother, JJ takes off for maternity leave, Elle is off for recuperation (although that's different), I feel like there could have been a discussion like only one of them could be off at a time, unless it's like "Fisher King".

But we never saw anything of those experiences. I like it when it is showed better. I would have loved seeing Elle or Hotch struggling while they were recovering, or Hotch in some trip with Jack's class or sweating because he couldn't see Jack for a second in the middle of a crowd... I know, I know, I am just daydreaming xD

About their time off, I understand you. Although, I would have liked if they had showed us more BAU members or teams, not as part of some spin-off but as passing by coworkers, maybe Hotch after a briefing or consulting a case (fresh eyes), sharing coffe time... I don't know... but something to show how there are more people ready to fight crime in that office. 

There are some tv shows where main characters are the ones all the time and it starts to feel fake after a while. It's like that habit of writing other forces like they are retarded in fictional law enforcement series. That was something I liked about CSI, when dayshift made some appearance. It built interest and credibility.

Edited December 26, 2017 by smoker