The Americans Retrospective

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Unfortunately, as we've seen in recent weeks, people commit suicide in more direct ways, too, including those who seem to have everything going for them. A show that involved a gifted and wealthy celebrity parent to a teenage child committing suicide would be representing a sadly real, self-destructive aspect of fundamentally illogical human behavior. 

It's been a while since I watched this arc, but I feel like at the time I didn't think that Nina was on the verge of being released if she only kept her nose clean. I didn't think she necessarily felt that way. That is, I could see her life just continuing to be a series of things with a promise that if she did it she'd get out. So she saw this as her life now and didn't believe there was necessarily a clear ending she was blowing up and thought she was just dealing with it as forever.

But maybe I'm forgetting details of what was going on.

[Plums]

My interpretation of Nina's decision was that, her being pardoned was contingent on reporting on and successfully manipulating Baklanov into compliance. She was to do whatever she could to make sure he was working absolutely to the best of his ability for the Soviets, not moping around depressed or bullshitting them about things he couldn't do. The idea behind her actual recruitment for this mission was that she'd become his lover, but he absolutely refused to let that happen or relate to her that way, and it had a very profound effect on her. She got to know him and came to feel extreme respect, empathy and compassion towards him, made even more powerful for her because those feelings were clearly mutual. And she refused to be complicit in his suffering for her own gain. She thought of a way she might be able to help him, and she chose to do something selfless for him, even though it was dangerous. She couldn't bare standing by while he suffered this one huge burden she felt she had the opportunity to fix. It was a purely emotional, moral choice, and she did it in part to save her own soul. Because like she told him herself at one point, she wasn't sure buying her life back from the Soviets by compromising herself was worth it. Hurting Anton by choosing not to help him made it not worth it for her. 

And this isn't really a totally inconsistent thing with her character. Choosing to confess to treason when absolutely no one suspected her and she was so close to exfiltration wasn't a logical decision either. 

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

It's been a while since I watched this arc, but I feel like at the time I didn't think that Nina was on the verge of being released if she only kept her nose clean. I didn't think she necessarily felt that way. That is, I could see her life just continuing to be a series of things with a promise that if she did it she'd get out. So she saw this as her life now and didn't believe there was necessarily a clear ending she was blowing up and thought she was just dealing with it as forever.

But maybe I'm forgetting details of what was going on.

Yes, the officials told her she'd be released, all charges dropped, if she succeeded in getting Anton on track.  It's not in that episode, it's in an earlier one I think.

Paige didn't sacrifice shit.  She just didn't want to go to Russia, she never did, and still didn't.  That was her first logical move in years.

[sistermagpie]

I just had a thought today that's kind of obvious but I never thought about it in these terms. I'd been seeing all these parallels between Season 1 and Season 6, especially the ending and The Colonel. And I realized that S1 ends with Elizabeth speaking Russian to Philip--the only time she ever speaks Russian to him. And then the end of S6 and the show is the same, with Elizabeth speaking Russian to Philip.

Also in both cases it's kind of code for them going all in on starting a new life together.

[Erin9]

16 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I just had a thought today that's kind of obvious but I never thought about it in these terms. I'd been seeing all these parallels between Season 1 and Season 6, especially the ending and The Colonel. And I realized that S1 ends with Elizabeth speaking Russian to Philip--the only time she ever speaks Russian to him. And then the end of S6 and the show is the same, with Elizabeth speaking Russian to Philip.

Also in both cases it's kind of code for them going all in on starting a new life together.

So true. :) The writers did a great job of pulling S1 threads. 

I rewatched the Pilot. Their conversation on defecting is particularly interesting now that the show is concluded. 

Elizabeth thinks it’s not too late for the kids to become something other than 100% American. Philip says it’s too late- they are. And he was right. She gave up on Henry. Tried with Paige- but I think deep down she knew it wasn’t working. She sounded like someone trying to convince herself that Paige could be kinda Russian and a spy. Truthfully- unless they had to go back to Russia when the kids were VERY young, it was too late a long time ago. 

Elizabeth flips out and says they agreed the kids would never know that they’re spies, that they’d live their own lives, the kids would hate them if they knew. Interesting given that when orders from the centre changed- she tries to change with them. But- she was always hesitant about telling Paige they were spies in the end. Even Gabriel pointed out she wasn’t actually doing it. And she was clearly hesitant about really recruiting her given how much she didn’t want to tell Paige about spying realities.  Even though she verbally followed the party line and tried to play along. She knew all along this was a mess. And so did Philip (except for this one time). 

Philip mentioned in the garage how terrified he was when Stan showed up. No kidding. He wasn’t thinking clearly at all when Stan showed up: 

The first and last time he was ever blasé about the kids finding out the truth was here. Plus- the kids would have had the truth AND an identity change/move in the US. They’d have been thrilled. 

Elizabeth rightly pointed out that Timoshev in their trunk was a great argument for the futility of defecting. He says they wouldn’t be stupid like him.  Well- we and they repeatedly saw how good the KGB was about finding and eliminating traitors- timoshev, Gennadi and Sofia (with the kid in the house no less- and if P/E had defected P and H could have gotten killed ), the Russian WWII girl- Natalie, Irina- a spy too....they’d be dead. 

Would Philip really have been able to go through with defecting- really actually marched Timoshev over to Stan’s and told all? Without Elizabeth no less. He tried to say it wasn’t a big deal that they’d done so much for the country already-  but this is a guy who in the end risked getting killed by the KGB because he saw the potential for positive change. He risked his life and marriage for it. Not sure I see him being able to do it. This was also the only time he suggested giving info to the Americans. He was that scared of Stan’s presence. 

Lastly- much as Philip liked to dream about really being Philip ....I think S6 showed he couldn’t be. I don’t think he liked having a job that wasn’t truly useful. Money making wasn’t something he personally desired anyway imo.  And....he still identified with home too much. If they  needed help, and he thought it was a worthy mission....sign him up. No matter how crazy it sounded. 

From the very beginning of the show there was no “happily ever after” possible for all 4 of them. 

[Plums]

Wrt the whole idea of defecting, I think they addressed it in the pilot- they could defect with Timoshev or let him go or whatever, but killing him was a point of no return. After Philip crushed his windpipe, defecting to America was no longer an option on the table. It's a major reason why Elizabeth was so moved by him doing it. I also tend to think that Philip being blasé about the kids knowing the truth in this instance is because going into the witness protection program is not the same thing as going to Russia. It's not utterly life destroying in that same way- they'd just be moving to another part of the country and have to get used to new names and identities. And that all could be initially hard for the kids, but they'd still be Americans living in America with their parents. 

If we're interpreting Philip's tell-the-kids-the-truth and defect argument in the pilot as a wildly atypical, terror induced reaction to an FBI agent moving in across the street rather than the characterization not quite being hammered down for Philip in the pilot, then that makes Philip's subsequent risk-taking with that same FBI agent feel even crazier, tbh. I don't even know the names of some of my closest neighbors and couldn't pick those people out of a lineup. I have no idea what they do if I don't see them doing yard work or walking by. It's not like Stan moved in next door (or the other half of the weird duplex house they seemed to live in one part of? seriously it will always bug me), he moved in across the street, and the way that neighborhood is set up, it's not even as close as a normal neighborhood's "across the street". Bottom line, Philip chose to befriend Stan, initially to probe him as a potential source, but it was ridiculously dangerous to develop such an intimate relationship with the Beemans and not remotely inevitable or unavoidable. I don't know if Philip felt trapped into keeping it going after the initial, source-developing motivation wasn't all that productive before he accidentally made a friend or what. It's super interesting to me though, to think about how scared he was of being blown in the pilot, such that he would consider defecting, then taking such a brazen risk in becoming close to Stan and in doing so making him be more aware of them rather than less aware. The Jenningses becoming insanely incautious over the years with Stan right there is one of my favorite parts of the whole tragedy though. 

[Erin9]

Was Timoshev really the only time defecting was a possibility? P and E had a ton of valuable information. Maybe so, but it seems like they would have a lot to offer themselves. 

How valuable to the US was Timoshev still anyway? Sure- the FBI wanted him back. But I assume he’d already told them everything. He was just giving speeches on what I assume the FBI leads already knew. If they didn’t, they should have. Especially if he’s just wandering around DC. 

True- Elizabeth was certainly moved that he killed Timoshev for her. He seemed to be their best bargaining chip for defecting for whatever reason, though I find that hard to fathom right now. 

IA- WITSEC is not the same as going to Russia, but he was still very blasé about telling them everything- which he never was again. 

I think initially Philip thought of Stan in terms of “keep your friends close, your enemies closer.” Then, he actually saw Stan as a friend. Which was dangerous. 

 No matter what though,  the biggest single issue was that Stan lived close by and knew what they looked like imo. Sure- he wouldn’t likely be super focused on their comings and goings, but he knew their faces. In the end the FBI knew who they were because Andre saw their real faces and Stan/Aderholt knew what they looked like. Although Aderholt wouldn’t have known them had they not been friendly with Stan. 

 

ETA- on the subject of defecting, it seems to me they could have- if they REALLY wanted to defect-  given the FBI  other spies. It would have meant stabbing people they knew in the back- or people in their shoes. But possible. They could have given the FBI the whole operation much sooner rather that wait for Harvest’s asset. It’s hard to believe that wouldn’t have been valuable all by itself. 

Edited June 28, 2018 by Erin9

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Was Timoshev really the only time defecting was a possibility? P and E had a ton of valuable information. Maybe so, but it seems like they would have a lot to offer themselves. 

I was just re-watching the pilot too--though I'm only up to the mall scene and the scene before that is also interesting, where Philip is already floating the idea of defecting to Elizabeth. They already have Timoshev at that point but Stan has not yet moved in.

I tend to see it, frankly, as largely Philip's characterization not quite being laid down yet if only because it seems like they really wanted him to be already antsy and even tried to suggest that money was a real temptation--he keeps referring to the money Timoshev got. One could see his saying that they wouldn't be "stupid" like Timoshev as referring to him seeing Timoshev as a special way to defect. That is, he thinks if they give them Timoshev they won't have to give up all these other spies and info, but of course that's still a pipe dream. It's possible that there really is a meta reason here, that they started out seeing the west vs. east divide as more of a conflict than it could be, and imagining Philip's love for Elizabeth keeping them together, but that was simply unsustainable. Anybody who saw it that way found it ridiculous, at least based on what I saw online. Also the idea of Philip not defecting simply because of Elizabeth just didn't work with the way his character turned out. She *had* to represent a similar feeling he had in himself the same way he represented her very real love for her family in himself or else it's hard to root for either of them or the romance. Ultimately Elizabeth had to find a way to love her family while also loving the Cause just as Philip had to love his country while also loving his family. In the end if either one of them was abandoning their own values for the other it wouldn't work.

But dealing with what we've got, I can also see it as Philip--as weird as it sounds--having gotten lost in his "character" at the point the series starts. That would also explain that OC scene where he's nuzzling up to Elizabeth when she tells him to stop, ultimately provoking her into a pulling a knife on him to which he responds he's "her husband." There's no other time in the series he would be that delusional. Like he really does think that he's this guy--and wants to be because at that point his relationship with the kids is so good and the spying still fun for him too, that he sees it as getting out when he's on top.

His killing Timoshev shows how much he loves Elizabeth, but again it's not even only that because of the mall scene where he's so angered by Errol the creep. And not just for Paige's sake either. He clocks the guy as he walks by with the young girl he's already with, notes the guy's hand on her butt as he encourages her to tell her mother she's sleeping over at a friend's house, and looks furious. So that "protect the weak" directive was already strong too. The kids are maybe young enough then that he isn't so afraid of telling them the truth, especially in order to protect them. They would have accepted their parents as anybody then--especially Henry.

In fact, now that I think about it, P&E's reasons for hesitating to tell the kids the truth actually seem very different. In the pilot Philip is blase and Elizabeth talks about the kids having "their own lives." But when it actually becomes an issue their positions are more that Philip doesn't want them to know because he doesn't want to put a burden on them and draw them into someone else's life and world. He wants them to be free to be themselves and free of guilt or secrets. Elizabeth, otoh, often seems like her fear comes down to being rejected. She desperately wants to be known by the kids but then is afraid in the crucial moment so Philip has to push them (calmly) over the line. And of course even in S6 she's shielding Paige from what she does while Philip is more ready to tell her the truth so she can make an informed decision. Both of them lie, obviously, but Elizabeth seems to be more ambivalent about it.

So maybe part of the thing in the pilot is that it snaps them both back into focus for themselves, a bit. That is, Elizabeth sees Philip as the better man than she'd been dismissing him as, but Philip also acts out of love for the real Elizabeth rather than "Elizabeth Jennings" the suburban mom with spy benefits that he'd be fine being married to for real.

[Erin9]

IA- I think they hadn’t fully fleshed out where Philip was going yet. The part about the money threw me too. Philip liked some of the western perks, but he never wanted to get rich. That wasn’t what drove him. It was weird. 

I think what they really wanted to establish in the pilot- and stuck with- was Philip prioritized family/people, and Elizabeth country/mission. But both still cared about the other’s priority. That’s what made the show, as you said. And that’s where the show went. It emphasized the point that they needed each other. Their marriage wouldn’t have worked if Philip truly didn’t care. 

Really- Elizabeth’s near single minded focus is one of the things Philip loved about her. (But he wasn’t afraid to tell her when he disagreed either.) It’s her dominant character trait. He had to see it as a mostly good thing.  She was “amazing.” And that devotion had to be a part of him too all along. Which we saw repeatedly when he’d soldier on when he was told he was really helping someone. That was his big motivator....all the way to the end of the show 

I do think, as Philip said in the end, he was terrified Stan knew all when they met. He did want to protect his family. That fits. So- I think that drove some of his actions in the pilot. But it doesn’t explain them all. 

I like the idea of Philip getting lost in his own character- and snapping back after killing Timoshev. It would explain that attempt at affection scene with Elizabeth. And somewhat the money aspect and the delusion  that Timoshev was all they seemingly had to offer- or would have to give up.  Even Elizabeth didn’t mention what they’d really have to give up. And- she supposedly was about to just let him defect too before Timoshev opened his mouth. It doesn’t really fit them or what the reality of defecting is at all. 

Philip usually seemed to have a pretty decent grasp on the reality of the situation. Not always, of course. The whole defection argument was about the least reasonable I can recall him acting. Least thoughtful. 

I always saw Philip killing Timoshev as a way for Elizabeth to see how much Philip loved her. 

I think Elizabeth came across as a better mom after the pilot too. Other than in S6 with Henry, she never seemed quite that remote again either. 

Regarding Stan- he comes across in the pilot as a normal, average, well-adjusted  FBI  agent with a stable, happy  family. He had a bit of paranoia, but that’s it. He seemed like he’d just be a good guy. That’s it. They moved on from that fast. By episode 2 I think they started showing cracks. 

This pilot is one of my favorites ever, but they made some clear character shifts after the pilot. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Erin9

[Dev F]

I feel like a huge part of why Philip turns away from America after season 1 is because Irina tells him about Mischa and the fact that he's joining the Soviet army. I didn't realize till years later, and only then because the showrunners raised the possibility in an interview one time, but Philip is actually motivated by the fear that his son will be killed in Afghanistan long before Gabriel confirms that he's fighting there.

For years, I was puzzled by Philip's first scene in season 2, where he's playing American cowboy to milk information from two mujaheddin, but then suddenly drops the mask and turns murderous when one of the men tries to present him with the knife he used to kill his first Russian soldier. Philip's turn always struck me as angry and personal in a way I couldn't understand -- but then I realized that Philip is imagining that Mischa is the one getting stabbed. It's a counterpoint to the previous sequence in the episode, where Elizabeth slams on the brakes in her car to protect the family of deer wandering across the road. It's about what the two of them will do -- or refuse to do -- to protect their children. Which sets up the main conflict for the season, P&E confronting for the first time the possibility that their work will blow back on Paige and Henry.

And I don't think it's accidental that Philip's opening scene has him playing the most stereotypical American imaginable -- a blustery Texan in a cowboy hat promising money and guns for all -- only to have that facade literally ripped away from him in an angry, impulsive confrontation over an imagined threat to Philip's son. I think that's how his American dream gets ripped away from him in a larger sense, as he finds himself more motivated to go to the mat for his own country to protect his son from the US government and its Afghani allies.

Season 3 also plays differently if you assume that Philip is worried about his son all along. For one thing, it makes more sense that he's fretting over the titular disaster in "Salang Pass," and it means he's lying to Elizabeth when he tells her he's just worried about Martha and her new foster-kid mania. And when Gabriel finally confirms that Mischa is fighting in Afghanistan, it seems like it's less about Philip realizing it for the first time than about him wanting to take ownership of the truth before Gabriel uses it against him. The first thing he asks is "Have you told Elizabeth?" -- and he immediately tries to tell her himself, but she interrupts him before he can, assuming that he's trying to argue with her about Paige again. And when he finally tells her in the next episode, it's something that brings them closer together, and releases him from the need to suffer alone. So the next time he gets some sudden protective impulse relating to Mischa -- insisting that they don't kill the South African agent because "he's just a kid" -- Elizabeth recognizes what's happening and supports his impulse.

You could even argue that once Philip knows his son is safely back in the Soviet Union, that protective instinct fades -- hence his turn back toward all things American in the final seasons.

In retrospect, it really is such a crucial storyline. Which is why it's such a shame that the episode that kicked it all off, "Duty and Honor," is such a clusterfuck. With a storyline that never quite makes sense (How many times have we argued fruitlessly about dumb, surface-level questions like whether we're supposed to think Irina is a deep-cover illegal or not?) and a romance that doesn't really click, it's simultaneously one of the most important episodes of the series and, in my estimation, one of the worst.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Dev F

[Plums]

that is a super interesting interpretation that actually makes a ton of sense. I wish we had gotten more of a sense of Mischa's existence as this game changing specter in Philip's life over the course of season 2. As it stands, from the time of Duty & Honor to the moment Gabriel brings him up, the audience could be forgiven for forgetting entirely that it was revealed Philip has a long lost adult son in the soviet military. I think there are a lot of moments, looking back, where I assume Philip is just more loyal to his homeland than previously established, but the Mishca thing tying him to the USSR in a way he wasn't before adds a dimension that makes more sense. Like in New Car, where he buys the fancy sports car, a symbol of American glitz and excess that he loves, then finds out the US government deliberately, maliciously deployed a batman gambit to trick the Soviets into sinking one of their own submarines, with over 100 young Soviet sailors aboard that were killed as a result, for no other reason than to just be dicks it seems, and it absolutely horrifies Philip. It makes a lot of sense that he'd be thinking of his son there, who could easily have been one of those sailors, and it effects him very personally. It shores up his resolve, and he regards the car in almost numb confusion and disgust when he gets back to it. It's momentary, but still.  I like this theory a lot!

I didn't start watching the show until after season 2 had aired, so I missed any Irina wank wrt whether or not she was for real or working with the Center to trap Philip, but it never crossed my mind she wasn't being honest with him. Though I agree it's not a very good episode. A lot of those season 1 episodes were comparatively shaky tbh. 

[Erin9]

I don’t really see Philip becoming closer or more distant from the US as being primarily about Mischa. It’s a motivator for sure. Philip always comes across to me as someone who cared about his people- ie Russians. Philip’s issues to me were mostly spy burnout, the correct belief that the centre would lie and manipulate them, that the government had problems serving their people properly, and that they didn’t always know what they were doing- as William put it. In general- he always liked certain American perks. That never changed. 

And S6 was about Philip risking everything for his country. And the world. Lol In many  ways he was pulling away from the US in S6 because he was pulled back into spying for the homeland for a mission he truly believed in. And he chose to get pulled in. He could have stuck to his original it’s not my problem.....but that’s not Philip. 

But ICAM that Philip was highly motivated about everything Afghan because of Mischa.  That was very personal to him. Even before Gabriel confirmed his existence in S3. It definitely motivated him in S2. Philip flipping out in the restaurant is a great example. Mischa leaving Afghanistan and going home to the USSR would be another more personal motivator for Philip to always care deeply about what was going on back home imo. It wouldn’t be a reason for him to turn more toward  America just because his son was safe. 

I like Duty and Honor. I just try not to overthink it.lol I liked the brief glimpse of a young, ambitious, excited, idealistic Philip who was in love. I liked knowing he’d loved someone else. I wonder if the writers had decided where he was from already. She said he’d like the trees, more rural parts of Canada, she may have mentioned the colder climate too. 

I think it’s interesting that P/E’s first loves are people who are very similar to themselves. Irina ultimately burned out on spying, believed the centre didn’t care about them. (Though her younger self was more dutiful, a bit like Elizabeth.) Gregory was a mission first type.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

In retrospect, it really is such a crucial storyline. Which is why it's such a shame that the episode that kicked it all off, "Duty and Honor," is such a clusterfuck. With a storyline that never quite makes sense (How many times have we argued fruitlessly about dumb, surface-level questions like whether we're supposed to think Irina is a deep-cover illegal or not?) and a romance that doesn't really click, it's simultaneously one of the most important episodes of the series and, in my estimation, one of the worst.

Totally agree. Although, surprisingly, I actually did see that characterization on my first watch of the ep. That is, in that opening scene when Philip was angry about the knife I actually did make the connection to him having a son in Afghanistan--at least I wondered about it. I wasn't sure that was what was going on, but I know I did wonder about it. I think it maybe clicked for me because we didn't know if the son was real (Irina even left Philip with a coy "maybe" answer to his direct question about it, which is another nonsensical thing in the episode) and frankly I didn't *want* him to really exist so I was maybe worried about it. Plus it seemed to say something really significant if Philip was this angry about a kid who might not even exist.

That was before we got that "make it real" conversation which sheds more light on it--Philip had made it real to himself already. And he was the type of person who would take ownership of a son he didn't know for sure existed rather than take a chance on not taking responsibility for one who did. Something the Centre must have known to use it against him in S3.

It's also interesting that after the revelations about Mischa between Philip and Elizabeth in S3 he never comes up between them again that I remember, even when they're talking about going back to the USSR. Not that I'd expect them to talk about him--they barely have any time to talk about it and they're not going to bring that up. But it does seem like it was Philip's anxiety about the boy that made him important to them as characters. Mischa's actual storyline in S5 has nothing to do with Philip because he doesn't even know about it and it's resolved with a convenient brother as a consolation prize. (It's not even like they use Mischa's scenes to have him pick up stray info about Philip here and there in any way.) So while it seems most people assume Philip will connect with his son back in the USSR, he's very much a grown person now. They're still empty nesters.

I do, like Erin, see Mischa's influence more obviously with Afghanistan specifically, but then there's probably many things going on with the characters that are influencing them at any given time. Elizabeth's arc with her love for her family is more obvious but Philip's got a parallel arc with the homeland, I think. The thing that he tells himself he must just cut off because it threatens the family, but can't really do it. In season 6 it seems more clear than ever how much the other person helps them integrate these two sides, so along with Mischa making the homeland more real to Philip I think the relationship to Elizabeth does too.

I read an old comment the other day that I really liked that this makes me think of, actually. It was talking about Trust Me and the whole separation arc of S1. The person was I think talking about how Trust Me is so important because it's where Philip learns that Elizabeth was informing on him all those years, and this is coming after the Gregory revelation etc. And they said that in a way Philip is seeing the real Elizabeth for the first time and figuring out if he can love this person. Part of that person she is is someone with a total commitment to the Cause and the country. When Irina asks him to run away with her (as Gregory asks Elizabeth later) it's clearly not a temptation--he's not going to leave the kids. But it also I think works to put things in perspective for him that he doesn't love Irina and ultimately he's not Irina. He chooses Elizabeth *and* the country just as Elizabeth can choose Philip and the country.

[Plums]

20 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's also interesting that after the revelations about Mischa between Philip and Elizabeth in S3 he never comes up between them again that I remember, even when they're talking about going back to the USSR.

It's really about Irina, but Mischa comes up once between P&E, in a way, after s3, that I can think of. It's during the fight. "I am stuck with you because I took you back! AFTER YOU SLEPT WITH THE WOMAN WHO HAD YOUR SON, AND YOU LIED TO MY FACE ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 

lol, honestly just wanted an excuse to quote it. I didn't even have to look it up. 

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, Plums said:

It's really about Irina, but Mischa comes up once between P&E, in a way, after s3, that I can think of. It's during the fight. "I am stuck with you because I took you back! AFTER YOU SLEPT WITH THE WOMAN WHO HAD YOUR SON, AND YOU LIED TO MY FACE ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" 

Heh-I totally didn't think of it at the time but yes, he does come up then! Even if it's more about Irina. That's how Elizabeth describes her, rather than just saying he slept with his old girlfriend. She also seems anxious when he talks about how he'd almost want to let Martha adopt a kid because it would make her happy.

[Dev F]

On 6/29/2018 at 11:02 PM, Plums said:

Like in New Car, where he buys the fancy sports car, a symbol of American glitz and excess that he loves, then finds out the US government deliberately, maliciously deployed a batman gambit to trick the Soviets into sinking one of their own submarines, with over 100 young Soviet sailors aboard that were killed as a result, for no other reason than to just be dicks it seems, and it absolutely horrifies Philip. It makes a lot of sense that he'd be thinking of his son there, who could easily have been one of those sailors, and it effects him very personally. It shores up his resolve, and he regards the car in almost numb confusion and disgust when he gets back to it. It's momentary, but still.

Yeah, "New Car" is one of the other episodes that felt much more meaningful in light of the Mischa revelation. Obviously, Irina told Philip that their son was going into the army, not the navy, so it's not that he thinks Mischa could literally be one of the victims -- but if one of the things that's been motivating him more generally is the idea that his work will help to protect his son, it must be horrifying to consider the possibility that the Americans could twist his work around so it kills his son instead.

Now that I think about it, that actually echoes the Henry stuff in the same episode. Philip thinks he's being a cool, supportive dad, bonding with his son over the excitement of buying a new car. But their bonding is yet another thing that's sort of been corrupted by the Americans, by their acquisitive capitalist impulse: "Why shouldn't you feel all that speed and power and freedom?" It's the same impulse that's driven Henry to break into the neighbor's house to play video games, because he wanted an Intellivision and his parents wouldn't get one for him, and why shouldn't he get to play with one? So Henry ends up sobbing and miserable, and Philip must wonder whether, yet again, his attempt to give his son a better life will get twisted around and break him instead.

[Plums]

okay, I've been rewatching (basically it's been non-stop Americans since March, lol) and I literally just noticed this and it's blowing my mind. And it isn't even hidden! It's literally talked about in an episode. 

okay, so season 2- the submarine propeller plans that Philip and Elizabeth stole after inheriting the operation from Emmet and Leanne. The sub went down, and Kate told Philip that the plans were faulty and deliberately planted by the US government to trick the soviets into stealing so that it would lead to them killing their own sailors. This is a fact that I absorbed from the show, and it wasn't unrealistic at all to me. But then Oleg tells Arkady later that the plans were for a different sized class of submarine than what the Soviet Navy fitted it for, and that they were basically completely negligent and incompetent in how they went about implementing and testing the design. Implication being that there wasn't actually anything wrong with the propeller at all, and the story that the Americans planted it was made up by the Soviet military to cover for their own incompetence. Arkady gives Oleg a significant look and just tells him "We got bad plans. This is our fault", like, wordlessly telling Oleg to just accept that the KGB and the American government is being scapegoated for their military's failure and do not speak of this to anyone else. 

I spent years believing that though, even though Oleg literally gives the true story in the same episode! I don't know why. It fits a lot with what we see of the Soviet government's MO when it comes to lying to their officers in order to deflect blame for things that are their fault, and it adds another layer of tragedy to P&Es situation, that they're basically being unknowingly fed false propaganda to reinforce their commitment. It starts from almost the very beginning of the show though, with kindly grandmother Claudia lying to them that they'd be exfiltrating Joyce Ramirez and her baby to Cuba, when in reality they killed her and took the baby to Russia. But in terms of operations they were given, the exact same things happened with the biological weapons and the wheat storyline. They were told they were on missions to defend their country from American aggression, when really it was all bullshit to cover for the fact that the soviets want to use biological weapons offensively and someone to scapegoat for the endemic corruption leading to food lines in their country. Elizabeth just thinks they got mistakenly false intelligence rather than deliberately false intelligence, but it's paralleled with an entire Russian storyline with Oleg where he's examining the real root cause of food insecurity in their country, and they all know it's entirely their own government's fault. It happens again with Elizabeth in season 6 when they try to manipulate her into being a pawn in their coup. 

It's no wonder Arkady and Oleg were so disgusted by the status quo at home after witnessing years of this shit that they'd team up against these assholes and stop their coup of someone actually acting in good faith. Like I have to wonder if P&E will ever know the breadth of how much the Center lied to them over the years. I think Philip was starting to understand it on some level by the time he retired, but it wasn't really something he wanted to think about because it was too much and too terrible.  

[sistermagpie]

I just happened to have been reading an old convo about Joyce and apparently people asked the writers if Elizabeth and Philip knew she'd be killed and they said if you asked the writers' room you'd get a dozen different answers--but that this didn't apply to Gregory's situation. That is, there everyone just agreed that Gregory would have to go to Moscow (for real) or die.

But then, that makes sense. Philip and Elizabeth themselves could see the necessity of killing Joyce and might just agree to try to believe the lie. But as early as New Car we're seeing things build up to S6--so well encapsulated by the general and Elizabeth when she says her country's not doing well and he says, "Who's fault is that?" Elizabeth's having to work extra hard there to get herself angry at the US because she's doing so much too.

I've seriously been thinking about doing a rewatch, actually. A deep-dive one. Would love it if anyone's up for it with me! Not that there would have to be any set schedule. My only question would be about how to arrange it because we'd obviously want to talk about spoilers in the episode threads as episodes got more meaningful with what came after and I don't know if it would just be annoying to have tons of spoiler cuts in them. I don't know if it would be okay to do special ep threads with spoilers for rewatch.

Having just watched not all of the pilot again in the scene where Philip and Elizabeth argue for the first time about defection I realized that her reaction is in some ways as surprising as his. She rejects the idea, but not before she presses him on all sorts of practical details that have nothing to do with treason. So you almost have to imagine Elizabeth herself being in a very different place than we imagine her always being in the pilot. She doesn't want to quit, but it's not deal-breaker for her either!

46 minutes ago, Dev F said:

Now that I think about it, that actually echoes the Henry stuff in the same episode. Philip thinks he's being a cool, supportive dad, bonding with his son over the excitement of buying a new car. But their bonding is yet another thing that's sort of been corrupted by the Americans, by their acquisitive capitalist impulse: "Why shouldn't you feel all that speed and power and freedom?" It's the same impulse that's driven Henry to break into the neighbor's house to play video games, because he wanted an Intellivision and his parents wouldn't get one for him, and why shouldn't he get to play with one? So Henry ends up sobbing and miserable, and Philip must wonder whether, yet again, his attempt to give his son a better life will get twisted around and break him instead.

It also seems important given how in S6 Philip is allowed to fully embrace being Philip Jennings and is genuinely dissatisfied with capitalism in ways that Henry isn't. To Henry, Philip's problems are just the kind of things that can happen. You hit a snag you pick yourself up, use the tools at your disposal, work harder, etc. It's not that there's a big conflict between them, but maybe there's some parallel to Paige there with Philip as Paige, trying to act like he "gets it" and is really into it but not really.

And of course, in both situations Philip's enjoyment of material things is easily derailed by problems with actual people back home.

[Dev F]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

I spent years believing that though, even though Oleg literally gives the true story in the same episode! I don't know why.

Even on my latest rewatch, I wasn't sure what we were supposed to believe about why the submarine sunk -- because the US doctored the plans, because the Soviets rushed through their reverse engineering, or because of some combination of the two. From the subsequent conversation about the risks of stealing the Americans' Stealth technology, it seems like Oleg and Arkady are at least considering the possibility that US sabotage was a real factor. But like with the initial talk about Mischa, I don't think we're supposed to know for sure what's true.

 

On a totally unrelated note, I just rewatched "Do Mail Robots Dream of Electric Sheep?" for the first time since I watched season 6, and there's an echo of things yet unrevealed that's pretty interesting, even though it's probably just coincidental. It's from when the elderly bookkeeper realizes that Elizabeth will have to kill her:

"I'm not afraid of leaving the world. I don't know why, but I'm not. It's better than falling down in the street like a drunk and waiting for some stranger to pass by."

Elizabeth's face tightens in response -- which I suspect originally wasn't meant to convey anything too specific, but in retrospect it makes sense that she's horrified that Betty is unintentionally suggesting, At least the way you're killing me isn't as bad as that time you left a comrade to die in the street.

[Erin9]

I’d be up for the re-watch. But it would be nice if we could do it without spoiler tags. That would be annoying. I’m so obsessed with this show. lol 

Regardine the submarine episode- I’ve always liked that the official story blamed the KGB and Americans- but in reality I think it was the military covering themselves. I’d never fully thought through that what Arkady’s response to Oleg meant was: we can’t tell anyone else. We’re stuck taking the fall. Yep- it really is no wonder the 2 work together later to try and get rid of the corruption.

And Philip was the perfect guy to help. Even as distanced from everything as he was, he got the reality of the situation just the same. He didn’t know the scope, of course, but he knew he was being lied to, that the government was screwing up. That being said- it’s not a stretch for me to buy that governments have and do put out false info for spies. 

I do think the coup opened Elizabeth’s eyes up to a lot. Once she finally fully accepted she had gotten lied to, and there was no good reason she could tell herself for it- that would just open the floodgates to what else she got lied to about. And accepting it as wrong. 

One interesting thing about Philip: he still consistently refers to Russia as “home” when that’s the appropriate lingo to use.  He never distances himself in the way he could have from it by always saying Russia. Of course, when he’s referring to the government or certain generalities,  he’ll refer to Moscow or Russia. But it’s interesting. Philip was Americanized....to a point. That’s not to say I don’t think he saw America as home in a sense too, just that he never distanced himself from the Motherland either. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Erin9

[Plums]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It also seems important given how in S6 Philip is allowed to fully embrace being Philip Jennings and is genuinely dissatisfied with capitalism in ways that Henry isn't. To Henry, Philip's problems are just the kind of things that can happen. You hit a snag you pick yourself up, use the tools at your disposal, work harder, etc. It's not that there's a big conflict between them, but maybe there's some parallel to Paige there with Philip as Paige, trying to act like he "gets it" and is really into it but not really.

I almost wish this was a thing we had more of a sense of in earlier seasons. Like, because I'm watching season 2 right now, particularly "New Car", and the titular new car is got specifically because the travel agency is doing really well, and Philip has these asides where it's clear he's focusing on it a bit and hustling and getting new business and just generally being a successful small business owner. When he's not feeling the walls closing in and acting from flop sweat desperation mode, he's a really good, natural salesman. So he's not been established previously as bad at capitalism when I feel like he kind of should have been, in order for the final season story to not feel so out of nowhere. I mean, I get it. Philip hits a snag when he tries to expand and goes into debt just at the moment when the market takes a hit, and it's a common, unfortunate feature of capitalism that this happens sometimes, but he's not prepared to deal with it at all. The KGB business school probably didn't include lessons on risk and investing when it came to their agents' cover jobs. Losing Elizabeth's probably moderating input wrt the travel agency probably didn't help (she's the one who suggested he cut back when he first told her there were money troubles, and I don't see her agreeing at all to taking out a huge business loan to expand if she were still involved in decision-making at the travel agency).

Honestly, his arc in season 6 with capitalism reminded me of Don Draper, someone else who grew up in utter deprivation, found himself living the "American Dream" under a false identity and was taken in by the myth and the trappings of the dream (like buying a totally sweet fancy new car because the image of themselves driving it made them feel awesome) without understanding the reality or the rules of it. Like, I see Philip with his struggling small business, putting on his cowboy boots, driving his fancy new car with fancy sun roof and fancy stereo, reading his power of positive thinking self help book in his office, and all I can think of is Betty Draper dismissively saying "I've seen how you are with money; you don't understand it". That succinct character penetration got Don right in the gut. One of the first things we see in the next season is that he's moved on from hoarding cash in a drawer to having an accountant. Like, I don't think Don is a similar character to Philip in any other possible way, but it just struck me as I was watching him in season 6, the familiarity of that particular character detail. 

[sistermagpie]

My comment earlier about a possible Paige/Philip parallel in S6 made me realize that the show tends to focus on how Elizabeth and Paige are alike. Both Elizabeth and Paige seem to focus on the same thing--and of course the writers also often talk about how Philip/Henry are similar. But one way that Philip and Paige are more similar is that they're the ones who struggle a lot through the seasons to figure out who they are. Philip always seems very reluctant to define Henry at all but there might be some projection there. When Paige says that she envies Henry "knowing who he is" in S5 I thought she was just seeing him as everything she wasn't--and maybe she is. Henry might one day wind up feeling like he's not being himself either--who knows?

But that doesn't seem to be happening on the show. Maybe it's interesting to see him as being a bit like Elizabeth, figuring out who he wants to be and sticking to it with determination. There's always been an obvious parallel between Church and the Cause with Paige/Elizabeth, but there's also a parallel with EST, the place Philip goes to try to figure out who he is. He's never able to give Paige easy advice when she's confused because he doesn't have answers either. Then in the last season both of them have thrown themselves into the thing that seemed most available to them, something that did have some appeal, but wasn't really right for them. Henry is also the one who leaves the family.

Philip's in a better place than Paige in this sense in the last season since EST is about self-knowledge and he's just been through more and is more mature.

7 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

One interesting thing about Philip: he still consistently refers to Russia as “home” when that’s the appropriate lingo to use.  He never distances himself in the way he could have from it by always saying Russia. Of course, when he’s referring to the government or certain generalities,  he’ll refer to Moscow or Russia. But it’s interesting. Philip was Americanized....to a point. That’s not to say I don’t think he saw America as home in a sense too, just that he never distanced himself from the Motherland either. 

I liked how Philip got more connections to Russia in later seasons than the earlier ones. There's the wedding in Russian, his plans to return to the USSR, then in S6 he has that scene listening to Harvest's last messages and finally him renting the Russian movie. They're small things, but they knew they were setting up a return to Russia and that wasn't supposed to be an impossible ending for Philip.

[Umbelina]

Philip's childhood starving in the Gulag makes Don Draper's look like perfection, or it would to child-Philip.  Plenty of food, warm bed, clean clothes that didn't come from dead people...

I already did a re-watch, up to season 4 at least.  I've decided to just ignore that season 5 and 6 ever happened because they were both crap.

Maybe just a re-watch thread for all of them?  I still love 1-4 quite a bit, and now I do want to go back and watch the ballerina play the Russian wife at least, even though the end of her story was completely idiotic. 

[Plums]

I'd also love a deep dive series re-watch discussion with spoilers allowed. We always knew that these characters were tragic due to what was going to happen in the near future geopolitically, but now we'll be able to see even more tragedy, knowing what will happen to them personally! 

[Umbelina]

We could also just use this thread.

I've been on a rewatch of True Blood, and also of Breaking Bad.  One thing that has become very apparent to me is that the way the shows wrap up is extremely important for my overall enjoyment of a rewatch of a series.

For example, I tried to watch Mad Men again as well, but I have to skip over so much shit to get to the gold, and the ending, while not quite as bad as I feel The American's final two seasons were?  Also sucked.  While I still love the show Mad Men, I don't love it quite as much because I know how it ends, Don basically abandoning his kids and the stupid Coke commercial.  Now when I watch it, with many great exceptions, I keep seeing Mathew Weiner's rather perverted and pedantic sexual fantasies play out.  The endless whore/Madonna crap, the slapping, the terrible (though with a decent conclusion) Dr.'s wife story, the pedestrian bondage, the physical fighting to provoke sex with Megan, etc.  I'll still love the show for things like the plastic bag over Sally and the pregnant women smoking and drinking and throwing the picnic stuff all over the park, and The Suitcase, too many things to mention.  Overall though, and in great part because of the final season disconnected from most characters?  A fail.

On the other hand, Breaking Bad and True Blood, both of which had a few shaky or difficult seasons?  I can watch and enjoy them all, because both shows nailed the endings in a believable and satisfying way, so when I rewatch them?  I'm good with the stumbles because I know where it will all go, and those places are close to perfection.

With The Americans I started rewatching during the horrible season 5, just to remind myself how good the show really was.  When season 6 began, it was SO much better than season 5, that I was just so hopeful, and much more forgiving, still hoping for (at the very least) a sensible and satisfying conclusion that (at the very least) wrapped up a few stories on screen, or gave us glimpses of some outcomes, positive or negative, but at least some kind of finish.

I've detailed several times why I feel they completely failed to do this on The Americans.  I seriously dislike "write your own ending" endings.  For me, it's a cop-out and a betrayal of the viewers.  For the writers to deliberately put each character in as much peril as possible, and then call it a day?  Total bullshit in my opinion.  I'm so annoyed I'm nearly angry with them. 

So in a way, I'm glad I watched the previous four seasons during the break between 5 and 6.  I was able to enjoy them again, in ways that I'm not sure are possible anymore.  Knowing what will come, in some ways similar to Mad Men?  May make me even less tolerant of tangents that go basically no where.  For example, Father Tim and that mostly boring story.  Yes, he was a convenient tool for Paige to use to tell on her parents and expose them.  Yes, I seriously loved when his wife threatened them with the "it's in my lawyer's hands if anything happens to us" story, which is just about the only believable thing that happened with that.  Still?  Other than the plot points, it went nowhere.

I may just bail and stop reading here.  The only people left are the ones who really love the ending, and somehow, beyond all logic for me, see an optimistic future for all the characters left in severe peril.  I don't like being in the role of the naysayer.  I'll go along with a writer's stuff, suspending disbelief and fan-wanking with the best of them to overlook errors, and I'll do it cheerfully, UNTIL I feel that they betrayed me or the story.  (An example with this show is having Phil and Liz do so many things embedded spies would never, ever do.)  The conclusion to a story and how they get there is part of the contract I feel when reading a book, or watching a long series.

Another example of that is LOST.  Those writers flat out lied to fans, which is an even bigger "betrayal" and for me, I'd never even watch a clip of that show again, let alone an entire episode.  While what The Americans show runners did is not quite that bad?  It was still a cop-out no-ending ending, and it spoils the show as a whole for me, especially after the ridiculous season 5 waste of time and cast.

Believe it or not?  I've really tried to see the optimism envisioned by many posters about what "endings" you've written in your own heads since the writer's did not bother to give one.  I just can't, hard as I've tried.  The set ups for disaster for each character were too thorough, and the show was grounded in enough reality and history that, for me, it simply can't be ignored.  I really wish we'd had a different ending, or at least that the set ups for disaster for everyone on screen were not so definite.  With a few changes, this ending could have worked.  (Paige not in the garage during the Stan/Philip confrontation.  Or Paige bailing on KGB shit during the time jump.  Or Elizabeth killing Claudia so Claudia couldn't tell the other Coup members about her.  Or Renee just being a wife, and not a probably KGB agent.  Or Henry on a full boat scholarship ride and a year older, so already an adult.  Etc.)

They didn't though.  THESE are the set ups they gave us.  I can't ignore them.

[sistermagpie]

16 hours ago, Plums said:

I almost wish this was a thing we had more of a sense of in earlier seasons. Like, because I'm watching season 2 right now, particularly "New Car", and the titular new car is got specifically because the travel agency is doing really well, and Philip has these asides where it's clear he's focusing on it a bit and hustling and getting new business and just generally being a successful small business owner. When he's not feeling the walls closing in and acting from flop sweat desperation mode, he's a really good, natural salesman. So he's not been established previously as bad at capitalism when I feel like he kind of should have been, in order for the final season story to not feel so out of nowhere. I mean, I get it. Philip hits a snag when he tries to expand and goes into debt just at the moment when the market takes a hit, and it's a common, unfortunate feature of capitalism that this happens sometimes, but he's not prepared to deal with it at all.

I would read it as less than he just wasn't prepared for the snag (though he wasn't prepared for it) but more what he says to Stan--why do you always have to be expanding? That generally is the point in business in capitalism, as I understand it. You grow the business. As Pete Campbell says, "Stable is that step backwards between successful and failing." Philip was fine at doing a job where people needed a service and he provided it. He probably enjoyed finding a vacation for people that they would have fun during--especially when it was more of a sideline that contrasted with spying. There were plenty of things about business that made sense to him--he sometimes gives tiny lessons about it, in fact. But he passed his interest level and saw that the entrepreneur drive wasn't really there for him. So he was questioning the system. Since he didn't actually get energized by his business (even the way he used to be obviously energized by spying in earlier seasons) it wasn't necessarily that he was bad at it so couldn't fight for it, it was that he didn't believe in what he was fighting for. (And not so good that he was great even when he didn't believe in it, like with spying.) 

But it was hard to really get that, I agree. In a way it seems like Elizabeth's arc in S6 was (as usual, really) the most clearly laid out. Philip's had more stuff where you had to put it together yourself and Paige even more so. 

Elizabeth's is even the only arc that gets an ending. It leads up to her killing Tatiana and that last scene with Claudia, with her relationship with Philip being integral to that. Once that's over it's done for her and she's just sitting there smoking in the wreckage when Philip calls. With Philip he never has a decisive act that rejects capitalism. There are things that show that he feels that way, but he's still drowning there when he unexpectedly has to run.

Same with Paige, actually. There's lots of evidence throughout the show that she doesn't belong in the spy world, isn't taking to the attempt to Russify her, just politely sitting in the boat with Elizabeth and Claudia, silently getting angry that she's wet and cold but unaware of the rapids ahead.

The scene that she has that parallels Elizabeth's confrontation with Claudia/killing of Tatiana isn't as clear. She confronts her mother with her suspicions that she's the one who slept with Jackson, accuses her of lying about everything and being a whore and then walks out, but it's not as decisive as Elizabeth's ending. Maybe part of it is at least for me I had to really go back and re-interpret the whole arc to incorporate the idea that she really didn't understand that honeytrapping happened. That she wasn't thinking of doing it at all herself, she was just disturbed by fears that somebody was doing it. It was hard to work out exactly what was in her head--and frankly, it always had been throughout the season anyway. None of the other aspects of her spy career are ever explicitly addressed (Elizabeth's defense about Paige not understanding because she didn't grow up like they did is at best an indirect acknowledgement that the Russia culture club was ineffective). When they show up at her apartment in START Paige reacts as if this is just a continuation of her ongoing argument with her mother, the ongoing dance of pleasing/disappointing/placating she and her parents have been doing for years. 

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe just a re-watch thread for all of them?  I still love 1-4 quite a bit, and now I do want to go back and watch the ballerina play the Russian wife at least, even though the end of her story was completely idiotic. 

This might be a good idea. I definitely thought of using this thread as well but it makes sense to me to have a re-watch thread that's specifically about that, unless the mods or others think it would just be redundant. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

On the other hand, Breaking Bad and True Blood, both of which had a few shaky or difficult seasons?  I can watch and enjoy them all, because both shows nailed the endings in a believable and satisfying way, so when I rewatch them?  I'm good with the stumbles because I know where it will all go, and those places are close to perfection.

 

It was funny for me to read this because I really liked Mad Men's ending (I didn't see Don as abandoning his children, fwiw) and *hated* True Blood's. I'd never consider a rewatch. (But then, I probably wouldn't have re-watched it anyway because it didn't mean that much to me.) BB, of course--totally re-watchable. Agree on Lost as well. They ended a different story than the one there were telling--wtf?!

But I have so much sympathy for anybody let down by an ending this way because I have so been there and I agree-endings can definitely color the whole show. I rarely buy TV series on DVD but if I'm even considering it I know I'd wait until it was over because there's a real chance the ending would make me change my mind. If we didn't do a re-watch you might be able to talk about 1-4, at least, since many of the issues with the ending are more plot-related than exactly a character based.

[Umbelina]

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It was funny for me to read this because I really liked Mad Men's ending (I didn't see Don as abandoning his children, fwiw) and *hated* True Blood's. I'd never consider a rewatch. (But then, I probably wouldn't have re-watched it anyway because it didn't mean that much to me.) BB, of course--totally re-watchable. Agree on Lost as well. They ended a different story than the one there were telling--wtf?!

Well Don did.  It's more about the last and second to last seasons on Mad Men.  Much like The Americans for me in that way.  The last season was just Don wandering around with random people we didn't give a shit about, and yes, the other stories were good, but our LEAD wasn't anywhere near those people, so it had less impact.  Peggy eventually having it all after much crap, Betty both coming into herself and facing death, Sally left with no parents, Joan facing very real sexual discrimination and her realization that she didn't need a man.  Actually, I liked all that happened to them, but i felt and feel that Don racing cars and getting rolled was boring.  At least it made some kind of sense though.  Don's a loner, always will be, and at least Weiner ended the damn thing, and nothing was illogical.

Actually Mad Men's end shines over The American's, now that I think of it.  It was mostly the sexual weirdness Weiner kept writing in that turns me off on a rewatch, and I'm certainly no prude.  His just seemed so relatively childish, kind of like the difference between "Shade of Grey" and "The Story of O" or the "Marquis de Sade."  I was honestly embarrassed for him, he's so basic.

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But I have so much sympathy for anybody let down by an ending this way because I have so been there and I agree-endings can definitely color the whole show. I rarely buy TV series on DVD but if I'm even considering it I know I'd wait until it was over because there's a real chance the ending would make me change my mind. If we didn't do a re-watch you might be able to talk about 1-4, at least, since many of the issues with the ending are more plot-related than exactly a character based.

I may, but I may bail.  I don't want to bring anyone down.  What I mean is that the ending SHADED my enjoyment of the previous seasons so very much.  For example, the endless pastor Tim shit.  Even before the ending, I was fast-forwarding through most of it, and now?  I'd hate it even more.  I'd be sadder watching Stan, a character I pretty much always defended and enjoyed.  The actor elevated so much of this story, and he carried unbelievable situations with his effective and masterful ability to "make it real."  His life, and Oleg's, and Nina's all ruined now, because there is no way in hell I will ever be able to swallow him suborning perjury with Paige on top lying about letting them go.  Top it off with "his wife is probably KGB" and just HELL NO.  Stan was human, and messed up, but he was also a good FBI agent and above all, "a God Damned American."

Another show that I still enjoy and watch here and there, even though I hated a major component of the ending is Alias.  In that one, I'm simply able to re-write one character and call it a day.  I do not, and will not believe Irina would try to kill Sydney, not even for everlasting life.  So, in my head, I just rewrite her part of the ending and I'm good.

With The Americans though?  I can't, because it's EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER'S STORY that I have huge problems accepting.  Aside from Paige, the characters on this show were not stupid, and in general acted logically, and carefully.  There is no way in hell Elizabeth would have told Claudia she was betraying her, and even less chance Elizabeth would let her live to endanger Paige, Philip's, and her life. 

While Stan might have let them go (I can fan wank that far) with the looming issue of his dereliction of duty and his wife probably being KGB?  He would not have then returned and lied to Aderholt, he would have faced the music and protected the FBI.  So again, I can fan-wank that to "OK, Stan needed a few minutes to collect himself, and then he will do that" but again, a very bleak ending for Stan.  Home life and job ruined, possible treason charges, beyond doubt fired, or he's just a liar from here on out, deceiving the agency he's devoted his life to.

Oleg's end is believable, but also miserable.  The most honest person on screen, and perhaps the most thoughtful and concerned with the world, imprisoned for life.  I'm OK with that, he was ready to sacrifice, and he did.  His dad could be in trouble too, and his wife, considering how things worked in the USSR.

It's not just the final episode to me, it's all that lead up to this.  As I said above, with a few changes, I would be happy with it, but instead, we got the story all season that put every one in peril and they just stopped the show.  The characters have never been in more peril actually, and certainly not every one of them at the same time.  So to deliberately do that and then role credits?  Major bullshit, and to me, nearly infuriating.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

28 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It was funny for me to read this because I really liked Mad Men's ending (I didn't see Don as abandoning his children, fwiw) and *hated* True Blood's. I'd never consider a rewatch. (But then, I probably wouldn't have re-watched it anyway because it didn't mean that much to me.) BB, of course--totally re-watchable. Agree on Lost as well. They ended a different story than the one there were telling--wtf?!

But I have so much sympathy for anybody let down by an ending this way because I have so been there and I agree-endings can definitely color the whole show. I rarely buy TV series on DVD but if I'm even considering it I know I'd wait until it was over because there's a real chance the ending would make me change my mind. If we didn't do a re-watch you might be able to talk about 1-4, at least, since many of the issues with the ending are more plot-related than exactly a character based.

I liked Mad Men's ending montage but wouldn't have the patience to re-watch any of that show past season 4 (lol, so in that respect I can totally relate to you @Umbelina) 

True Blood, ugh. Just forget about it. I felt like the entire thing went off a cliff after Alan Ball left. 

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

For example, the endless pastor Tim shit.

See, that entire storyline, and all the drama and suspense of this couple knowing the family secret it caused, was paid off for me personally entirely for that moment when he lies to Stan and covers for them out of loyalty to Paige. That was so delightful and satisfying to me.

All these ironies playing out in the final season- Elizabeth's, of all people's, sloppiness and lack of forethought or caution, is what ultimately puts the FBI on the trail of Harvest, which cracks open the entire illegals operating strategy, and puts Stan in particular on the trail of P&E. Paige's inability to hide her emotions isn't what makes Stan suspicious, but Henry's guileless complaining about how his parents are always leaving in the middle of the night. It's not ticking time bomb Pastor Tim who gives them up, but Father Andrei, who they trusted implicitly. 

I absolutely love that stuff. 

 

I'm sorry you didn't like the last two seasons. It's interesting how differently people interpret things. I get absolutely no sense of physical peril at all for any of the characters at the end. For just as clearly imperiled as you see them, I see them as just as clearly safe. The fallout from the emotional wreckage is the most immediate conflict I see everyone dealing with where we leave them, not any outside threat.  

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, Plums said:

I'm sorry you didn't like the last two seasons. It's interesting how differently people interpret things. I get absolutely no sense of physical peril at all for any of the characters at the end. For just as clearly imperiled as you see them, I see them as just as clearly safe. The fallout from the emotional wreckage is the most immediate conflict I see everyone dealing with where we leave them, not any outside threat.  

This is what I simply can't wrap my head around, and I HAVE tried to do that.

1. Henry is not only a minor, he can't pay for his school, and he's emotionally devastated that he's been lied to by his own parents for his entire life.  He will be a ward of the state, and possibly shunned by most of the people he knows.  This will be front page news.
2. Stan's wife may be KGB, he is lying to the FBI already, he will be found out because Paige WILL give him up (and no, I will not debate that, Paige barely has the skills to tie her own shoelaces, no chance she beats federal questioning.) He will be lucky to escape prison, as for his career and marriage?  They are both goners.
3. Philip and Elizabeth are walking into chaos, and they have MAJOR heavy hitters who will come after them, whether it is because they don't want to be exposed (the General/Claudia) or because they are furious this Coup was foiled by Elizabeth?  Either way, the chances of them living out the month are grim.
4. Paige, who has never even had a job, will have to support herself.  She's not smart enough to handle college bills and rent/food/gas/utilities/a car, AND college and a job.  In addition she's accessory to at least 4 murders (who knows what else she did during those missing years) and a traitor.  She could be executed for treason.  She's an adult, and it's more likely she gets life in a miserable prison, not a Martha Stewart prison.  Paige had a complete meltdown when she found out her mom fucked a Senator's aide.  Just how well do you think she's going to handle the fact that her father had a whole other wife, for years?  Or that the sailor was killed that night?  Or the mail robot granny?  Or the small child stumbling over his parents extremely bloody bodies in the ridiculous excuse for a "safe house?"  Or the wheat murders, because I can easily see Paige telling them "we were trying to help people while you guys were poisoning wheat!" and finally getting the truth about that.
5. Arkady may make it, so far, thankfully, Oleg never told Philip that Arkady was involved and Oleg will not give him up.  He may be able to hang in there, although picking up Elizabeth and Philip may put him in danger.  I can't figure out how his boss, who heads Department S, will not find out that he helped Elizabeth, who ruined his boss's Coup.  That boss may have to take out both the Jenningses and Arkady.
6. Aderholt will probably be OK, just demoted.
7. Oleg probably just lives out his life in prison, but I do worry for his father, who took clandestine messages for him to foil the Coup.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina
added Paige stuff, which I could do for hours, but I'll stop now

[Plums]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

This is what I simply can't wrap my head around, and I HAVE tried to do that.

1. Henry is not only a minor, he can't pay for his school, and he's emotionally devastated that he's been lied to by his own parents for his entire life.  He will be a ward of the state, and possibly shunned by most of the people he knows.  This will be front page news.
2. Stan's wife may be KGB, he is lying to the FBI already, he will be found out because Paige WILL give him up (and no, I will not debate that, Paige barely has the skills to tie her own shoelaces, no chance she beats federal questioning.) He will be lucky to escape prison, as for his career and marriage?  They are both goners.
3. Philip and Elizabeth are walking into chaos, and they have MAJOR heavy hitters who will come after them, whether it is because they don't want to be exposed (the General/Claudia) or because they are furious this Coup was foiled by Elizabeth?  Either way, the chances of them living out the month are grim.
4. Paige, who has never even had a job, will have to support herself.  She's not smart enough to handle college bills and rent/food/gas/utilities/a car, AND college and a job.  In addition she's accessory to at least 4 murders (who knows what else she did during those missing years) and a traitor.  She could be executed for treason.  She's an adult, and it's more likely she gets life in a miserable prison, not a Martha Stewart prison.
5. Arkady may make it, so far, thankfully, Oleg never told Philip that Arkady was involved and Oleg will not give him up.  He may be able to hang in there, although picking up Elizabeth and Philip may put him in danger.  I can't figure out how his boss, who heads Department S, will not find out that he helped Elizabeth, who ruined his boss's Coup.  That boss may have to take out both the Jenningses and Arkady.
6. Aderholt will probably be OK, just demoted.
7. Oleg probably just lives out his life in prison, but I do worry for his father, who took clandestine messages for him to foil the Coup.

It all comes down to the type of show we were watching, I guess. For me, the tone and what the writing chose to emphasize is what matters and informs the story. And the writing has always emphasized the characters over any kind of action or spy stakes. The plot serves the characters, not the other way around. The characters' relationships with one another, how their actions effect those relationships and their emotions, how their missions effect their characterizations, that's always been where the story is and the only things that matter, not the geopolitical plots themselves. I don't need to actually see that the anti-coup elements have lost this round, because those people don't matter, they're Claudia who has gone back to fight from the trenches and will probably be a figure in the 1991 coup if she isn't killed as one of the co-conspirators. and if she makes it she'll be just as shocked that the people aren't with her as the actual coup hardliners were when they thought they were saving the country. Otherwise, in the show these people are mostly nameless and faceless. They don't matter, and this plot never mattered beyond how it positioned characters we actually know and care about, and how it created conflict between P&E and grew Elizabeth's character. We don't need to see them actually lose to know they're not important anymore. I get from the narrative shorthand of seeing P&E meeting Arkady, who has been established as a competent, intelligent, sympathetic authority figure, and finally being able to rest as he takes over from there, that they got their message to the appropriate people in time and they're out of danger. It isn't anything that actually needed to be seen to be understood. The music and tone emphasizes their heartbreak at being separated from their kids and having to start a strange new life without them. that's where the story goes after the screen fades to black; there's not any sense of danger from outside forces.   

And I agree that I won't debate anything to do with Paige with you, since what we see her as capable of is an entirely irreconcilable difference of opinion. 

I just don't see any doom on the horizon at all, except for what we know will ultimately happen to the Soviet Union. Not in the immediate futures of any of the characters. Stan will care for Henry for as long as he needs it, and he won't get fired even though he may choose to retire, because that's all implied in what we saw on screen and what we know of the characters. 

This was a bittersweet end to a character drama, not an abrupt end to an action show. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Plums said:

It all comes down to the type of show we were watching, I guess. For me, the tone and what the writing chose to emphasize is what matters and informs the story.

The "tone" was extreme peril for all of the characters on the show.  The writers SET that tone by their deliberate stories to put them in peril.

2 minutes ago, Plums said:

And the writing has always emphasized the characters over any kind of action or spy stakes.

Yeah, we watched different shows then.  The murder counts and narrow escapes most certainly did emphasize "action" and "spy stakes" for the entire run of the show, and especially the final season, when the murder rate more than tripled in fewer episodes than previous seasons. 

4 minutes ago, Plums said:

The characters' relationships with one another, how their actions effect those relationships and their emotions, how their missions effect their characterizations, that's always been where the story is and the only things that matter, not the geopolitical plots themselves

Elizabeth's entire motivation was the geopolitical stakes.  It's who she was.  As Philip said "she cares about the whole world."  It defines her, and it also defines her relationship with Philip, and frankly, why he puts up with her.

6 minutes ago, Plums said:

I don't need to actually see that the anti-coup elements have lost this round, because those people don't matter, they're Claudia who has gone back to fight from the trenches and will probably be a figure in the 1991 coup if she isn't killed as one of the co-conspirators. and if she makes it she'll be just as shocked that the people aren't with her as the actual coup hardliners were when they thought they were saving the country. Otherwise, in the show these people are mostly nameless and faceless. They don't matter, and this plot never mattered beyond how it positioned characters we actually know and care about, and how it created conflict between P&E and grew Elizabeth's character. We don't need to see them actually lose to know they're not important anymore.

Only if you divorce yourself from history is any of this true.  The show deliberately grounded itself in history for it's entire run.  Reagan really gave those speeches, Gorbachev really did those things, the Afghanistan War really did bring down and bankrupt the USSR, the battle of Stalingrad really did cripple Germany and undoubtedly was a major factor in the allies winning WWII.  (on and on here.)

The Coup REALLY DID HAPPEN, the conspirators described were exactly the same as described by the show, KGB leaders, Military leaders, political leaders, all combined to take Gorbachev out.  Plots were ongoing for years, and Gorbachev probably, as a matter of fact, nearly definitely knew about them, but was powerless to fight them.  The show, for the first time ever, decided to take a page from history, but propose that the outcome changed because of Elizabeth's actions, which did NOT stop it, just delayed it.

They ARE important because, since Elizabeth inexplicably told Claudia she was turning on her in one episode, and in the next, didn't take her out?  Puts the entire family in peril.  Even though Elizabeth was not then planning to escape?  She would never, ever have done that because they were just as vulnerable in the USA to being murdered as they will be in the USSR. 

The writers WROTE that.

13 minutes ago, Plums said:

I get from the narrative shorthand of seeing P&E meeting Arkady, who has been established as a competent, intelligent, sympathetic authority figure, and finally being able to rest as he takes over from there, that they got their message to the appropriate people in time and they're out of danger. It isn't anything that actually needed to be seen to be understood. The music and tone emphasizes their heartbreak at being separated from their kids and having to start a strange new life without them. that's where the story goes after the screen fades to black; there's not any sense of danger from outside forces.   

Arkady is in danger himself!  His own boss is against him, because the Director of Directorate S (Philip and Elizabeth's boss as well as Claudia's and Arkady's) is IN THE COUP.  If anything, Arkady put himself in more danger by picking them up at the border, because Claudia damn sure already told his boss that Elizabeth betrayed them with Philip's prompting.

 

15 minutes ago, Plums said:

I just don't see any doom on the horizon at all, except for what we know will ultimately happen to the Soviet Union. Not in the immediate futures of any of the characters. Stan will care for Henry for as long as he needs it, and he won't get fired even though he may choose to retire, because that's all implied in what we saw on screen and what we know of the characters. 

Again, I outlined the dangers above.  It's beyond me that you so easily dismiss them, without telling me how any of them are not just possible, but likely.  Nice music at the end of the show doesn't mean anything other than Philip and Elizabeth being tired from the run, and having a hug.

Stan won't be able to take care of himself, let alone Henry. 

16 minutes ago, Plums said:

This was a bittersweet end to a character drama, not an abrupt end to an action show. 

It wasn't at all "bittersweet" to me, and this show was certainly both a character and action driven show, and it has been all along.

It was a completely hopeless ending for everyone on screen.  Actually, it wasn't an "ending" at all.  As easily seen by both of our multiple posts on this finale?

Write your own ending.

The showrunner was too lazy for anything else.  They wrote everyone into corners (peril) and then exited, stage left.

[Erin9]

I like the idea of separate threads to deep dive episodes, if possible. It’s less confusing and more organized. 

There aren’t many things to me that are absolutes- due to the Americans world that was established and that there is no real way of knowing where these people will be emotionally in 5-10 years. Off the top of my head: Henry and Paige will never have US government jobs. Philip, Elizabeth and Martha will never return to the US. Most other things- are up for debate imo. I may have strong opinions on them. But they’re not absolutes. 

Like @Plums- there is a lot about the wrap up I liked. Elizabeth blew their life in America. I wish she knew it, but she was the one who got the FBI on their trail.  I wish Philip knew it too. Her blind loyalty cost them dearly. I loved that Andre outted them. The ONE time they do something for themselves- and it’s a fatal mistake. Ouch.

I like parts of the Pastor Tim story. We saw much more of him than we needed and I do FF parts of it. But-  I like that he kept his mouth shut. And really- he’d made his bed a very long time ago. No real surprise he stuck to it. 

Same with Stan. Once he let them go, that was it imo. He made his choice. It wasn’t surprising to me that he lied to Aderholt. Self preservation is a pretty strong motivator anyway. As Stan once said- no one thinks they’ll commit treason. To quote Star Wars- roughly-“once you start down the dark path- forever will it dominate your destiny.” A tad over the top, but it fits. Lol IMO- he’ll shut up to protect himself, Paige and Henry from further fallout. And Paige can and will shut up imo. 

My feel on the coup is- as I’ve said- they’ll be fine. I got a general feeling of safety when they saw Arkady. Now- rounding up the coup members may take some time and there is room for FF on how it all plays out. It may be awhile before everyone feels or are completely safe. There could be some danger. But I think they’ll be fine in the end. That they were able to sleep in the end and talk outside in Moscow about other things spoke volumes. They sure didn’t act like death was imminent. I’m sure Arkady has a plan- a plan they must have had confidence in.  They may help him execute said plan too. 

 Really- Arkady never would have set the ball rolling if he thought it was pure suicide for everyone, including himself. Dangerous, highly risky, yes. He had to believe that IF he got the plot details, there was a way out for them. And he did get them.  He had to have various ideas/plans on what to do next. 

As for Claudia knowing about Elizabeth: Well- much as I don’t buy her letting E walk, she did. So who knows what she does next-  besides try and get home. Claudia may choose not to tell anyone about E or she may not have a chance to tell anyone. She has her own problems- that’s clear. She was pretty devestated last we saw her. 

 It seemed to me she was in more danger that Elizabeth, the way the show chose to play it. Of course, she thought Moscow already knew all, but still- they know in the end. Also- Claudia has no idea about Philip’s involvement. She might suspect, but she knows nothing. Elizabeth didn’t tell her that. 

Philip, Elizabeth, Arkady, Claudia, Stan  and Oleg all ultimately cared about the country/world. The story, partly, was what kind of world/home did they want. What sacrifices would they make for it. This is obviously less of a thing for Stan, but he’s still part of it. 

Edited July 2, 2018 by Erin9

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

My feel on the coup is- as I’ve said- they’ll be fine. I got a general feeling of safety when they saw Arkady. Now- rounding up the coup members may take some time and there is room for FF on how it all plays out. It may be awhile before everyone feels or are completely safe. There could be some danger. But I think they’ll be fine in the end. That they were able to sleep in the end and talk outside in Moscow about other things spoke volumes. They sure didn’t act like death was imminent. I’m sure Arkady has a plan- a plan they must have had confidence in.  They may help him execute said plan too. 

The Coup happens though.  They slept because they'd been traveling for days.  Arkady's "plan" was convincing Oleg to convince Philip to foil Elizabeth.  That succeeded, but the Coup still goes forward ousting Gorbachev.  The USSR completely fails, and chaos ensues.  I seriously doubt that was part of his "plan."

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Really- Arkady never would have set the ball rolling if he thought it was pure suicide for everyone, including himself. Dangerous, highly risky, yes. He had to believe that IF he got the plot details, there was a way out for them. And he did get them.  He had to have various ideas/plans on what to do next. 

He knew and warned Oleg that this could be a suicide mission, but it was all he could think of to keep perestroika going, and reforms.  Akardy is even less powerful than Gorbachev.  Oleg knew exactly what risks he was taking, and how dangerous it was.

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

As for Claudia knowing about Elizabeth: Well- much as I don’t buy her letting E walk, she did. So who knows what she does next-  besides try and get home. Claudia may choose not to tell anyone about E or she may not have a chance to tell anyone. She has her own problems- that’s clear. She was pretty devestated last we saw her. 

Claudia has extremely powerful allies, including her/Akady's/Phil's/Elizabeth's boss, head of their division, and also other highly placed Generals, Political figures, and KGB officers that are on her side.

She'll probably kill herself when the USSR falls, but until then?  She will make it her mission in life to end Elizabeth for foiling this coup, possibly end her entire family first just to make her suffer.

She didn't look devastated to me.  She just ate her soup.  If anything, she was holding in fury.

5 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Same with Stan. Once he let them go, that was it imo. He made his choice. Self preservation is a pretty strong motivator anyway. As Stan once said- no one thinks they’ll commit treason. To quote Star Wars- roughly-“once you start down the dark path- forever will it dominate your destiny.” A tad over the top, but it fits. Lol IMO- he’ll shut up to protect himself, Paige and Henry from further fallout. And Paige can and will shut up imo. 

Again, Stan won't even be in position to save himself, let alone help Paige (by what, committing additional crimes and suborning perjury?) or Henry.  He's done.  Wife?  Done.  Job?  Done.  Ideals?  Unless he comes clean with the FBI?  Done.  His whole life, everything he's devoted himself to being?  Trashed.

Paige, not in any universe, is smart enough to outwit the best Intelligence Officers in the USA.  Can we at least stop with that one?

[Erin9]

We’ll just have to agree to disagree......I  don’t see it that way. I certainly think Arkady came up with a plan. It was highly dangerous, not 100% suicidal to try to stop the coup. Otherwise, why bother. 

Claudia rambling about how Elizabeth had ruined everything, that they’d all go to jail- sounded pretty dire to me. She wasn’t confident. She seemed to believe they were defeatable. 

[Umbelina]

33 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

We’ll just have to agree to disagree......I  don’t see it that way. I certainly think Arkady came up with a plan. It was highly dangerous, not 100% suicidal to try to stop the coup. Otherwise, why bother. 

 

Arkady's plan succeeded.  He foiled the Coup.  Or rather he delayed it.  He was perfectly clear when he spoke to Oleg, he didn't sugar coat it.  Oleg did it for his country, no matter what the consequences would be for himself.  He knew death or prison were very likely outcomes.

I don't think part of his plan was the fall of the USSR though, that caught everyone by surprise, including all USA intelligence services.  No one saw that coming, and it nearly destroyed the CIA.  Humiliation doesn't begin to cover it.

Quote

Claudia rambling about how Elizabeth had ruined everything, that they’d all go to jail- sounded pretty dire to me. She wasn’t confident. She seemed to believe they were defeatable. 

She says they will "take apart directorate S" and put them in jail (but that didn't happen, and aside from that, Coup members were in every branch of the KGB, not just directorate S and spread throughout the military and political leaders.)

Claudia saying she's returning to the USSR doesn't show fear to me, just disgust and exhaustion.  She's ready to fight to try to save her country again, that's why she's returning.  She will hang with her other Coup buddies and expose Elizabeth, if she hasn't already, bringing not only her personal wrath, but the wrath of far more important people than Claudia could ever hope to be.

Transcript Elizabeth With Claudia:

She made soup, offers some, Elizabeth declines.

Elizabeth says:  Nasterenko is alive.  I stopped it.  I also contacted Gorbachev's people and told them everything you were planning.  It's over.

Claudia:  Do you realize what you've done?  They'll take apart the center's leadership, the people that supported you all these years.  They'll put them in jail, all of us. 

Elizabeth:  There is still time for you to get out, go somewhere, I'm sure you could get by anywhere.

Claudia:  You think you are doing me a favor, I had so much faith in you, you know when things were bad between us I never lost faith in you.  You always reminded me of the women in the war, that put country over family.  But now I see you never really understood what you were fighting for...

Elizabeth:  I'm still fighting for those things.

Claudia:  Maybe you started to young...I thought I knew you.

Elizabeth:  You lied to me.  If you knew me, you'd know never to lie to me.

Claudia:  The work you put in, the sacrifices you made, our time with Paige, it was all for nothing Elizabeth.  You destroyed it all today.  The damage you've done is indescribable, far worse than all the good you've done all these years.

Elizabeth:  Where will you go?

Claudia:  Back home.  To fight for what's left of my country.  I'm not afraid.  We took it back from our enemies before, we can do it again.  And you, what's left for you now?  Your house? Your American kids?  Philip?  

(Claudia eats her soup.)

Edited July 2, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

I don't know why you posted the transcript of the confrontation with Claudia because it just looks like it proves Erin's point. It's heavily implied and all but stated outright that if Arkady was able to expose the details of this conspiracy to the Party, the balance of power in the government tips decidedly in the reformers favor and all the people involved with this particular plot are neutralized, either through death or imprisonment. the issue it seems you have is that you're equating the plot the show invented with the actual coup in 1991, and they're not the same. A whole hell of a lot happened in the four years in between. And we know the 1991 coup succeeded in ousting Gorbachev at the very least even though it hastened the end of the USSR and made that end even more chaotic than it would have been otherwise; we're not arguing that the show is telling us that coup was prevented and the course of history broke off into an alternate canon AU, we're just saying there's no danger to any of our main characters in Russia at the end of the show, because this is a different coup with different people involved. 

[Umbelina]

Sure. 

The show just happened to pick the exact same types of people for their "fictional" coup that were in the real coup about 2 2/3 years later in August of 1991.  Philip and Liz left around Christmas time, just days away from 1988. 

It's much more logical that they regrouped, lost a couple of members, and succeeded in 1991.  They were plotting for years, it's kind of a big deal, not something you would put together in `a few months, taking down the leader of the largest country in the world.  Also, if you read the history of the whole thing, Gorbachev had few allies in the power structure, and his hands were mostly tied. He couldn't have taken them all out if he tried.

I typed out the transcript not to prove a point, but because I didn't remember Claudia saying "jail" and when she did, I decided to finish typing the rest, and that @Erin9 was correct.  We may disagree about the ending, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate Erin9's posts.  I have for years now.  The truth is, Claudia has barely been in the USSR for decades.  She may have assumed they would go to jail, but that doesn't mean it happened.

In fact, if it DID happen, it's much less likely that under 3 years later it would succeed.  Actually that's even more reason to kill Liz and Phil, because if the first Coup had succeeded, they may have not destroyed the USSR, just got out Gorbachev.  After all it was his new freedoms that gave the people the courage to stand up to the tanks to begin with.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[Erin9]

@Umbelina I appreciate your posts too. They are always thought provoking. Even when I disagree. ( From a 100% real world POV, I actually agree more. But I don’t apply them to this show.) 

Honestly- about the only line I draw between our fictional plot in 1987 to 1991 is that the USSR falls/Gorbachev is removed from power. That’s it. Anything else takes in too many variables that start from a fictional plot in a show that adhered to reality only to a point. I’m not drawing conclusions on anyone’s fate because the next coup succeeds. Who knows who exactly survived #1 to be involved in #2, much less who knew what about the players on both sides of #1. Basically- I take the same stance as @Plums. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, Plums said:

All these ironies playing out in the final season- Elizabeth's, of all people's, sloppiness and lack of forethought or caution, is what ultimately puts the FBI on the trail of Harvest, which cracks open the entire illegals operating strategy, and puts Stan in particular on the trail of P&E. Paige's inability to hide her emotions isn't what makes Stan suspicious, but Henry's guileless complaining about how his parents are always leaving in the middle of the night. It's not ticking time bomb Pastor Tim who gives them up, but Father Andrei, who they trusted implicitly. 

I absolutely love that stuff. 

 

 

I don't have a lot of thoughts on logical fall out from everything in the finale, but a couple of very small things for me, at least, was that 1) I do think the show intended to tell us that Henry *does* have the ability to pay for school. Philip couldn't pay for it so he talked to people and covered it via his well-paying summer job and more financial aid. It still was a contrivance that he didn't have a full scholarship because they wanted to make it play into Philip feeling like a failure, but they also wanted to show Henry not needing him on that score because he was self-sufficient and had covered it. The history of the show doesn't make me think it would have to be front-page news.

Whatever danger Arkady was in because of his actions, I think it's a given that Philip does know that he was the one who sent Oleg. Obviously he'd have been in a position to do it and he's the one who shows up to greet them etc. So I assumed this wasn't a secret between the three of them.

The final thing was on Paige and Stan, I don't believe Paige would be able to withstand FBI questioning at all, but I also don't think she'd necessarily be pressed hard enough on the issue of whether or not they ran into Stan on the way out of DC that she'd have to hold out. It's possible she might blurt out something under stress that outs Stan, certainly, but I don't think they'd have to get stories straight or anything since the story is already pretty set and the FBI wouldn't have much reason to focus on those particular minutes. If she's pressed on it for any reason I don't think Stan could trust her playing the FBI, but he might not have to. (Not that this solves all Stan's problems, of course.)

 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

There aren’t many things to me that are absolutes- due to the Americans world that was established and that there is no real way of knowing where these people will be emotionally in 5-10 years. Off the top of my head: Henry and Paige will never have US government jobs. Philip, Elizabeth and Martha will never return to the US. Most other things- are up for debate imo. I may have strong opinions on them. But they’re not absolutes. 

Yes, I have a few ideas that I imagine and a few things that seem "true" in my head and that's it.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

Like @Plums- there is a lot about the wrap up I liked. Elizabeth blew their life in America. I wish she knew it, but she was the one who got the FBI on their trail.  I wish Philip knew it too. Her blind loyalty cost them dearly. I loved that Andre outted them. The ONE time they do something for themselves- and it’s a fatal mistake. Ouch.

I like parts of the Pastor Tim story. We saw much more of him than we needed and I do FF parts of it. But-  I like that he kept his mouth shut. And really- he’d made his bed a very long time ago. No real surprise he stuck to it. 

Agreed with both you and Plums on this. Elizabeth's ruthlessness and coldness and unquestioning obedience led the FBI right to them. It's especially ironic that Pastor Tim kept his mouth shut and Father Andrei folded. Although to be fair there's no reason to think Pastor Tim would actually stand up to further questioning like Andrei got. If the FBI really presses him--and there's every reason they would given his history and his history with the Jennings--he might very well talk. But he held out long enough that their downfall didn't come down to him at all.

I agree it was really more than just Paige, imo. He made this decision the minute he started talking to Paige about "asking them more about what they do" etc. He wanted to keep that secret and it wasn't because of a special feeling for Paige. That was who he was. And it's quite possible that he came to regret it more after he had a child. He seems to tell the Jennings that he feels more for them after fearing for his life in Ethiopia and I think that's true, but I also think that just as Paige was ultimately relieved to get rid of Pastor Tim, he was relieved to get rid of her.

2 hours ago, Erin9 said:

Philip, Elizabeth, Arkady, Claudia, Stan  and Oleg all ultimately cared about the country/world. The story, partly, was what kind of world/home did they want. What sacrifices would they make for it. This is obviously less of a thing for Stan, but he’s still part of it. 

It's also cool for me that at the beginning of the season when Elizabeth was griping about Erika and how at least her husband in the State Department was doing something important instead of wasting his life on art, I kept thinking how completely incapable Elizabeth and Claudia would be at creating a new world because they had such contempt for people. Nobody would want to live in a world they created. They needed the constant war. Elizabeth ultimately pulled out of that, but that was in large part because Philip is her window into life.

So it fit that while Elizabeth is the person who stops Claudia's plot, the team of rebels are made up of the characters who are established as the most thoughtful about other people. They're willing to sacrifice their own happiness for others, but they prefer not to do it.

[Umbelina]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't have a lot of thoughts on logical fall out from everything in the finale, but a couple of very small things for me, at least, was that 1) I do think the show intended to tell us that Henry *does* have the ability to pay for school. Philip couldn't pay for it so he talked to people and covered it via his well-paying summer job and more financial aid. It still was a contrivance that he didn't have a full scholarship because they wanted to make it play into Philip feeling like a failure, but they also wanted to show Henry not needing him on that score because he was self-sufficient and had covered it. The history of the show doesn't make me think it would have to be front-page news.

Henry, given the salary he would get over the summer, would make about $3000, if I remember the numbers we figured out, and I'm pretty sure that doesn't include the deductions for state, fed, medicare, medicaid taxes.  Philip said he didn't have the $9000, IIRC for next semester's fees.

That's not even the biggest issue though, the biggest issue is that he's a minor.  He will be a ward of the state, turned over to social services, even though he's got a job lined up, he really doesn't qualify to be an emancipated minor.  It's possible that rich friend's dad would act as guardian for him, just over the summer, that would probably depend on how that dude feels about letting the child of murderous KGB agents (who many still come after their son) into his world.

The history of the show was based on real life events, as we've heard over and over again.  It would have been, as it was, front page news.  Reagan would have been screaming about the red menace and bragging that the USA caught the sneaky bastards right outside of DC.  It's news, it's something for the FBI and USA to brag about.  I have a seriously hard time thinking it would be kept quiet.

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The final thing was on Paige and Stan, I don't believe Paige would be able to withstand FBI questioning at all, but I also don't think she'd necessarily be pressed hard enough on the issue of whether or not they ran into Stan on the way out of DC that she'd have to hold out. It's possible she might blurt out something under stress that outs Stan, certainly, but I don't think they'd have to get stories straight or anything since the story is already pretty set and the FBI wouldn't have much reason to focus on those particular minutes. If she's pressed on it for any reason I don't think Stan could trust her playing the FBI, but he might not have to. (Not that this solves all Stan's problems, of course.)

Thank you. 

Then we disagree.  The FBI, as the show told us, is using crumbs to try to track down ALL of the illegals, not just the ones in DC.  Paige is full of crumbs, much bigger crumbs, and even if the FBI doesn't suspect her of being KGB?  They will question her extensively for "things she may not know she knows."  There is simply no chance they don't question both her and Henry.  None.  They are their best chance to get more crumbs to follow in tracking down how illegals operate here.

In the middle of that, she's going to blow it.

As I mentioned in another thread a while ago, my sister was questioned by police, and the FBI about Ted Bundy.  She was only with him (in his car, he abducted her) for about 3 minutes before she jumped out of the car, at around 80 MPH, the speed limit then, and rolled down a deep embankment.  She was probably questioned for at least 100 hours over a period of a year.

Paige?  Is far more important to far more people, because it's national security, not just a serial killer.  They will "go over it again" so much she will slip up.  My sister even thought they were suspecting her!  They ask the same questions over and over again, just in case you remember some little thing. 

The minute they ask her if she knew about (pick one) Martha being married to Philip, or the murdered sailor who hit on her, or any of several dozen things that will hit close to home?  She'll give herself away. 

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It's especially ironic that Pastor Tim kept his mouth shut and Father Andrei folded. Although to be fair there's no reason to think Pastor Tim would actually stand up to further questioning like Andrei got. If the FBI really presses him--and there's every reason they would given his history and his history with the Jennings--he might very well talk. But he held out long enough that their downfall didn't come down to him at all.

Pastor Tim will crack like an egg, and his wife will hire a lawyer because she's the only one with brains in that family, and the lawyer will advise him to get an immunity deal in exchange for spilling his guts.  Which?  He probably will.

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I kept thinking how completely incapable Elizabeth and Claudia would be at creating a new world because they had such contempt for people. Nobody would want to live in a world they created. They needed the constant war. Elizabeth ultimately pulled out of that, but that was in large part because Philip is her window into life.

The world they were trying to create, and I agree it's as much of a fantasy as fan-wanking the finale into a happy ending <grin> didn't include war.  It didn't include rich or poor, it included equality for all, respect for all, no threats of war because no human would ever be thought of as better or worse, or treated any differently.

The ideals of communism were not, and frankly, are not, bad.  It's the execution that sucked.  The world they wanted was kind of like Dr. Spock's home planet on Star Trek.  Peace and plenty (or at least enough) for all.

I think it's going to hit Elizabeth and Claudia the hardest when the Soviet Union fails, they gave everything for their country, their whole lives, all for nothing, for a dream that died.  It's going to be especially hard for Elizabeth, since her dad was a traitor, and now she, inadvertently, is one too.  As I said above, it's possible that the USSR would have continued had the Coup worked, and they just got Gorbachev out.  A little under 3 years later though, reforms had taken hold, and freedom was more solid, and it gave the people hope enough to stand up to the tanks and guns.

Will Elizabeth be glad she saved Gorbachev but lost her country?  I seriously doubt that.  Imagine the USA falling apart because of a choice you made.  Also, in those first critical years of crime and absolutely nothing working at all until they finally ended up with an asshole like Putin?  She will feel guilty as hell.

If they live that long, and Elizabeth isn't constantly drunk, I have a strong feeling both she and Philip would leave Russia forever.

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

So it fit that while Elizabeth is the person who stops Claudia's plot, the team of rebels are made up of the characters who are established as the most thoughtful about other people. They're willing to sacrifice their own happiness for others, but they prefer not to do it.

I don't think Claudia would see it that way.  ;~)  I also don't think that Elizabeth will after the collapse of the USSR.  Yes though, it was a lovely band, I just wish Liz had killed Claudia, so they all had a better chance of survival.  One little thing.  After all the murders Liz committed this season...the one that counted?  She blew.  Inexplicably.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Whatever danger Arkady was in because of his actions, I think it's a given that Philip does know that he was the one who sent Oleg. Obviously he'd have been in a position to do it and he's the one who shows up to greet them etc. So I assumed this wasn't a secret between the three of them.

In fact almost the very first thing Oleg says when he and Philip first meet, after they've established there's no surveillance is, "Arkady Ivanovich sent me. We need your help."

[Erin9]

Also, meant to mention it earlier, I’m not sure it’ll be common knowledge that Philip and Elizabeth were spies. If they’d gotten arrested or killed, sure. But what actually happened is pretty humiliating to the US government. Not sure they’ll be broadcasting this failure. 

@sistermagpie All I could think of when you said Philip is her “window into life”  is Elizabeth drawing the plane window. She came a long way in the end. She never would have made it without Philip especially- and to a much lesser extent Erika’s drawing lessons. 

Philip absolutely knows Arkady sent Oleg. Oleg told him. 

ICAM- it is fitting that the rebels are the thoughtful people who care about others. 

I just re-watched the scene where Elizabeth decides Paige is like her because she’s interested in causes, changing the world/making the world a better place. It actually struck me as funny this time that she relates it so directly to herself- and only herself. Philip wouldn’t be a spy in America if those types of things didn’t interest him. He talks about them in a different way, but it’s the same basic idea. Philip is just more personal about it. If he wasn’t interested in changing the world- he definitely wouldn’t have bothered to help Oleg and Arkady. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Philip absolutely knows Arkady sent Oleg. Oleg told him. 

(see below)

5 minutes ago, Plums said:

In fact almost the very first thing Oleg says when he and Philip first meet, after they've established there's no surveillance is, "Arkady Ivanovich sent me. We need your help."

Well, crap.  Of course he did.  I somehow blocked that.  I think I didn't want to think of Arkady going down too. 

Hopefully Philip and Elizabeth will keep their mouth's shut.  I think they will unless they end up in Lubyanka. 

[Erin9]

Philip and Elizabeth are more than capable of keeping quiet. No worries from me there. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Philip and Elizabeth are more than capable of keeping quiet. No worries from me there. 

Yes, thankfully Philip didn't tell Elizabeth, so she didn't have a chance to spill that to Claudia.

Still, his boss is in in the Coup group, let's hope he doesn't bring them in for questioning after Claudia tells him what Elizabeth did.  That kind of questioning would be much harder than what Paige and Henry will face in the FBI, since it involves broken spines,severed fingers, and much worse.

Speaking of that.  Arkady's boss, the head of Directorate S, must already know that Elizabeth foiled the Coup.  That should be an interesting meeting.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[Plums]

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Also, meant to mention it earlier, I’m not sure it’ll be common knowledge that Philip and Elizabeth were spies. If they’d gotten arrested or killed, sure. But what actually happened is pretty humiliating to the US government. Not sure they’ll be broadcasting this failure. 

This has always been my view. They were neighbors and intimate friends with an FBI agent for 6 years. Their daughter dated his son. The head of FBI counterintelligence had Thanksgiving with them. They fled the country on a passenger train that was inspected by a border control unit armed with their photographs and knowledge that they wear disguises yet still managed to be fooled by wigs, makeup and nonchalance. This is farcical incompetence and the most humiliating intelligence failure in decades probably from the perspective of the US government, and no way they'd want it exposed in the media. In my personal headcanon, they even devise some cover story when questioning people who don't know the truth, like the travel agency employees, just to make sure the story stays hushed up and contained, like shady financial crimes or mafia ties. 

[Umbelina]

Yes.  The FBI, to avoid embarrassing Stan, won't search the Jennings' house, and won't tear apart Philip's business in order to find more illegals.  Oh wait!  They already ARE tearing apart their house, it's swarming with FBI agents.  Don't worry though, the neighbors won't ask any questions, or gossip about that, and it will never get back to someone like, a reporter for one of the many news outfits in DC.

It might raise questions! 

Philip's employees won't wonder where he's gone, and just to protect Stan, who has already blackmailed the FBI in the past, the FBI won't even question them!

Also, President Reagan, once informed of the captured spies, won't want to shout it from the rooftops, because he just loved Russians, the KBG, and the Soviet Union too.

It's a huge win for the FBI.  Not a chance they won't make the papers, it might be delayed a bit though, while they try to examine every inch of the house, the business, the employees, and the kids to find more crumbs so they can locate other illegals.  With Paige?  It won't be crumbs, it will be an entire bakery.

Oh, and it's another reason Stan's done.  They will serve him up on a platter to avoid further blame, probably Aderholt as well.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The minute they ask her if she knew about (pick one) Martha being married to Philip, or the murdered sailor who hit on her, or any of several dozen things that will hit close to home?  She'll give herself away. 

Just to be clear about what I was saying, I don't think Paige would be able to hold onto any lies she tried to tell. I was just saying that I saw a possibility in her *not* being pressed on whether or not they ran into Stan in the garage on their way out of her apartment. I don't think she'd be able to keep secret much about her life for the past few years at all. But if she told the truth that her parents came to her apartment, told her to pack a small bag and then they left via the garage and they didn't ask anything that directly related to them being surprised by Stan, she might not tell them. I do think they'd go over how they left--her parents used a stolen car, had plates to put on it etc. All that stuff they'd go over and in the course of that she might say something that would put them onto Stan, certainly. But if they didn't and she didn't, that might not come up.

So basically, just saying that I don't think it's realistic to expect Paige to cover for anybody but if Stan was really lucky she wouldn't have to. Really lucky.

With Pastor Tim, for instance, I don't see how his actions wouldn't come out if they're asking Paige detailed questions about her life. He's the only guy apart from Stan who was friends with her parents. They'd of course be asking about Stan too, but Paige wouldn't have to lie about that the same way.

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As I mentioned in another thread a while ago, my sister was questioned by police, and the FBI about Ted Bundy.  She was only with him (in his car, he abducted her) for about 3 minutes before she jumped out of the car, at around 80 MPH, the speed limit then, and rolled down a deep embankment.  She was probably questioned for at least 100 hours over a period of a year.

This still gives me chills. I'm so glad she got away!!!

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Pastor Tim will crack like an egg, and his wife will hire a lawyer because she's the only one with brains in that family, and the lawyer will advise him to get an immunity deal in exchange for spilling his guts.  Which?  He probably will.

Yup, yet another reason to assume that Paige's involvement is going to come out. I would bet that Pastor Tim won't even be able to defend Paige's character all that passionately. He'll probably also be learning that he's been working for a KGB-infiltrated organization for years as well. His life in Argentina is over--and he'll probably just be grateful for the immunity and not feel like he owed Paige anything at all.

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The world they were trying to create, and I agree it's as much of a fantasy as fan-wanking the finale into a happy ending <grin> didn't include war.  It didn't include rich or poor, it included equality for all, respect for all, no threats of war because no human would ever be thought of as better or worse, or treated any differently.

They said it didn't include war--it was all about peace. But they themselves needed the war. They didn't actually value the kind of world they claimed they were fighting for because it would be full of people who valued things they didn't. I think that's one reason why they could continue to fight for the fantasy and ignore the times their Cause was making things worse.

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Claudia would see it that way.  ;~)  I also don't think that Elizabeth will after the collapse of the USSR.  Yes though, it was a lovely band, I just wish Liz had killed Claudia, so they all had a better chance of survival.  One little thing.  After all the murders Liz committed this season...the one that counted?  She blew.  Inexplicably.

Yeah, that's just weird. However much they liked the image of Claudia calmly eating her soup.

46 minutes ago, Plums said:

In fact almost the very first thing Oleg says when he and Philip first meet, after they've established there's no surveillance is, "Arkady Ivanovich sent me. We need your help."

D'oh! There we are, then! Makes sense, too, since it would make sense to refer to somebody Philip knows something about.

45 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

Also, meant to mention it earlier, I’m not sure it’ll be common knowledge that Philip and Elizabeth were spies. If they’d gotten arrested or killed, sure. But what actually happened is pretty humiliating to the US. Not sure they’ll be broadcasting this failure. 

It wasn't common knowledge with the Connors and they *did* get killed.

45 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

 All I could think of when you said Philip is her “window into life”  is Elizabeth drawing the plane window. She came a long way in the end. She never would have made it without Philip especially- and to a much lesser extent Erika’s drawing lessons. 

So did I! I mean, I wasn't thinking of it when I started writing it but as the words hit the page that's *exactly* what I pictured. LOL.

But yeah, those two things really worked together throughout the season. It was really an echo of S1 where Philip again, by being himself, got through to her.

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

It's a huge win for the FBI.  Not a chance they won't make the papers, it might be delayed a bit though, while they try to examine every inch of the house, the business, the employees, and the kids to find more crumbs so they can locate other illegals.  With Paige?  It won't be crumbs, it will be an entire bakery.

I don't see how it's a win since they lost. We didn't see them catch anybody and they got far more crumbs from Harvest than they'd ever get from Paige, who they know is in FBI hands by now too. Hell, they started the show with Timoshev who was giving lectures on the whole program. Paige isn't the key to winning the Cold War.

Of course they'd still search everything, but they wouldn't necessarily explain to the press that these people were Russian spies.

Edited July 3, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Plums]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yes.  The FBI, to avoid embarrassing Stan, won't search the Jennings' house, and won't tear apart Philip's business in order to find more illegals.  Oh wait!  They already ARE tearing apart their house, it's swarming with FBI agents.  Don't worry though, the neighbors won't ask any questions, or gossip about that, and it will never get back to someone like, a reporter for one of the many news outfits in DC.

It might raise questions! 

Philip's employees won't wonder where he's gone, and just to protect Stan, who has already blackmailed the FBI in the past, the FBI won't even question them!

Also, President Reagan, once informed of the captured spies, won't want to shout it from the rooftops, because he just loved Russians, the KBG, and the Soviet Union too.

It's a huge win for the FBI.  Not a chance they won't make the papers, it might be delayed a bit though, while they try to examine every inch of the house, the business, the employees, and the kids to find more crumbs so they can locate other illegals.  With Paige?  It won't be crumbs, it will be an entire bakery.

Oh, and it's another reason Stan's done.  They will serve him up on a platter to avoid further blame, probably Aderholt as well.

This all feels like a wild, willful misinterpretation of the argument. I never said they wanted to protect Stan. They want to protect the organization and the image of the government as a whole. this isn't a win at all- the spies got away. and if the story got out and journalists dig into the story and discover the details, it'll make the entire US intelligence apparatus look foolish and incompetent. Hence, they bury the story. 

[Umbelina]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

This still gives me chills. I'm so glad she got away!!!

Me too, but it's kind of my window into the world of police and FBI questioning, that, and being interviewed and filling out an in depth analysis for someone I worked with who was applying for a job as an agent.  Thorough doesn't cover it.  Which, by the way...hello!  Renee?  After Martha you'd think the FBI would do a complete background check on her as well.

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They said it didn't include war--it was all about peace. But they themselves needed the war. They didn't actually value the kind of world they claimed they were fighting for because it would be full of people who valued things they didn't. I think that's one reason why they could continue to fight for the fantasy and ignore the times their Cause was making things worse.

They knew that war was the only way to fight and change the world.  Honestly though, the ultimate goals, those things that Claudia and Elizabeth sacrificed their whole lives for?  Were good goals...just badly carried out.  I'm talking about the idealism both women had, more than the practicalities involved.  There are many reasons that system failed, and one of them is the lack of support from the Capitalistic west for the Bolshevik Revolution, and certainly the boycott and blockades also contributed to the failure of that dream.  A world without hunger, without classes, without the Rich exploiting the poor.  One big world, no countries, so no need to fight with your neighbors.

That's what they fought for, that ideal.

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, that's just weird. However much they liked the imagine of Claudia calmly eating her soup.

One little thing.  Yes, they went for some bullshit artistic move instead of something that would have made the entire ending bearable for me.

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It wasn't common knowledge with the Connors and they *did* get killed.

How much did they really have on the Connor's though?  With the Jennings?  They have so much...let's start with Martha.  All they need is one fingerprint from that house they are searching at the end of the show.  After that, dominoes fall.  Also, the Connor's all died, even the son, and they had no part of that.  With Philip and Elizabeth?  True, they didn't catch them, but the got rid of them all the same, they were only running because the FBI was closing in.  So they did shut down that operation.

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't see how it's a win since they lost. We didn't see them catch anybody and they got far more crumbs from Harvest than they'd ever get from Paige, who they know is in FBI hands by now too. Hell, they started the show with Timoshev who was giving lectures on the whole program. Paige isn't the key to winning the Cold War.

Of course they'd still search everything, but they wouldn't necessarily explain to the press that these people were Russian spies.

They never spoke to Harvest though, all they did was follow him.  With Paige, she knows so many little details about things, from Claudia, to safe houses, to operational methods, to another agent, the black guy, she can identify the headless, handless woman, which might lead to more clues, the cars, the cameras, that garage...etc.  All they had with Timochev was how they were trained, obviously he wasn't giving out descriptions or they might have found Elizabeth by now.  With Harvest, they had the garage, and that led to utility bills paid in advance, and the priest.  One crumb leads to more crumbs.

 

15 minutes ago, Plums said:

This all feels like a wild, willful misinterpretation of the argument. I never said they wanted to protect Stan. They want to protect the organization and the image of the government as a whole. this isn't a win at all- the spies got away. and if the story got out and journalists dig into the story and discover the details, it'll make the entire US intelligence apparatus look foolish and incompetent. Hence, they bury the story. 

Not my intention.

The way the FBI "protects itself" was clearly demonstrated when Gaad was fired, they offer up a sacrificial lamb. 

The spies may have "got away" but the FBI closed down that operation.  They would not have run if the FBI hadn't been about to arrest them.  It's all in the spin.  The FBI and CIA are political organizations as well as spies.  They depend on Congress for their budgets, they tend to justify their worth.  Internally it's also very political with people "making their careers." 

They don't look foolish and incompetent at all.  Stan does.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Umbelina