The 'Ship Yard: Relationships: At Bay, At Sail, Anchored, Adrift, Sunken, Salvaged and Under Construction.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, doram said:

I'm not sure how anyone watched this show and shipped Clark with anybody other than Lex. 

Lol.  I'm an equal opportunity shipper.  Room for nearly all.

In the defense of those that didn't ship Clark with Lex, Clark treated Lex pretty bad after the second season.  Then Lex hit his evil stride a few years later. 

[Sirious Dude]

Thing is tho,all of you people are either charlk(wich i dont even know hoow can someone ship for something doesnt exist at all) or clois fanatics and thats why  yall hate Lana,cause she slowed down Clois relationship.neutral fans loved lana and a lot of fans who werent even clana fanatic,simply quitted the show after she left cause that u want to belive it or not,lana and clark relationship was what really made smallville the show we know and love.

In SV universe they changed the story as someone already said above,and they should have changed till the end by making Clark and Lana end together.NONE here is being objective,all spreading hate against Lana.But did someone of u actually looked at her as a human being?who has grew up with no parents?did someone analyzed her behaviours?the way she change trough the seasons?she's one of my favorite character cause starts as a shy pretty girl ,who became a confident beautiful woman.,try to watch from season one and u will see that she treat clark better than any other and better than lois will ever do,..chloe during season one constantly manipulate clark when he goes after lana and kinda convinced him to not cross the friend line,and the she try to cross that line with him,lois didnt even knew clark had a secret cause she had so little faith in him that she barely sees a real man in him but just a farmboy,and after she actually discovers it she starts manipulating him to make confess starting to constantly  make allusions,double sense and he did eventually give up and tell her...

Lana discovers clark powers the day of the wedding with a smart set up,but what she really discoverd in that winery was how clark really feel about her and that’s what really matters to her,eventually she wait for him to be ready to  open bout his secret and look at  same episode 6x16 promise when clarks try to tell his secret right after the wedding,she stops him cause she knew in that moment he was acting impulsive and he was not really ready to reveal it..what actually lana asks is the truth since she gets manipulate a lot,especially from lex and clark and they keep lieng in her face like nothing and that just make her more souspicious and truth-craving...lana is the first to actually believe in clark,even before chloe we can see lana stand near clark all the time especially in the earlier 3 season(when he want to be president,the time she says theres much more than we can see of Ck,that once the guy who could split in 2 tricked chloe and lana,clark talked to both,but just lana trusted him)...and we can truly see during the seasons that lana afterall have a deep faith in clark ,in season 3 and even when she's with jason,in season 5 she's completly devoted to clark and she gave him all the chances he wanted and would give him even more if he didnt'  literally break her heart,pushing her she kinda hide the love that she still has with hate and then she goes to lex who deviate her against clark even more,but she eventually open her eyes up starting with the final scene at the talon after clark gets mind possed by the phantom and tell about the plastic engagement ring he dreamed to give her,then when clark saves her from the security guard.

and do u guys even realize how much lana sacrificed for clark?and not just marrying lex,even before when they were toghter she did all she could to make it work.but now lets talk about lois,why none complain about her?she's the real bitch of the story.I don’t realize how a man like CK with value and moral could marry a women like lois lane,wich has no moral, 0 ethics and slept her way to her job with Julian Luthor,didn’t even graduate and has prooved many times to be extremely selfish,she even betrayed clark steling the book of rao and going near to the earth distruction just for her pervers pleasing to be needed by a superhero and cause she basically never really trusted clark,she start doing it just when she discovers his secret identity .

Clark ending up with lois in this universe in the saddest thing for both him and Lana,lois does not deserves him at all,first cause she always belittles him,treated him bad and act all bossy to him,but most important she really fell with the superhero/cool reporter,not with the man behind the suit like Lana.i watched the show like 6 times and i can say that Lana its probably the only one that really loved clark since the first place and for who he really is,no super power no blur or leather jacket,she fell in love and she'll love for ever the simple shy farmboy she introduced to her parents at the graveyard and he fell in love with lana  since the first time he see her when they were 5,both in an endless love.

I want to make a point about Lana,Chloe and Lois and their haters.Everyone hates Lana either cause she is the perfect pink princess(jealousy)or cause she's the big obstacle between clark and lois.And thats all,dont lie cause there's nothing wrong with her character especially that she treat clark bad,clark is the only responsable for lana teatment.For the Chloe and Lois there is no much to say,everyone worshipp em cause one is the destiny girl of comic superman,and the otherone is shown as the most epic friend,when in the first place she was not that much, and moslty cause chloe has never been a threat for the happy clois ending any feaking fanatics want.

About Lana,anyone wants to see just the bad things of her,but the good are so much more...whats all  with this lie and secrets thing,but why none hates Chloe for the same stuff,even thou she's the try harder on clark secret?just cause since she does behind his back there are no interference between their friendship caused by her curiousity until he find out.lana simply ask him for the truth,wanst him to open to her like a symbol of love and trust to her,and not just to tell her his secret,she ask clark to open about his feelings cause she dont want him to keep all inside,and she dont want to see him ending alone.she has trust issues since he grew up without parents and its a thing to have lack of love in this situation,and she want to know that clark loves and trust her,cause she know he does,but when he lies looking straight in her eyes she start doubting if he really loves her as much  she really loves him,and think of him as soulmate.

And why blame her for being honest with whitney?thats something to praise her for,she understand she has feeling for clark and think its not fair to keep whitney on the hook.

But yall see the bad from lana,when in the end she is the best character,skill lightswicth apart,, and she the only one that truly loves clark and has alawyas trusted him since season one she says she have faith in him,and somehow know there is something special about clark, with chloe even thou she did eventually became her sidekick,people should face the fact that for the first seasons chloe has not that much trust in clark as lana has, thats a lightswicth from chloe when discovers his secret,u gotta admit that,she even sold clark to lionel for jeaulosy and she searched in his past trought the adoption files and when she have the power of the truth she tried it all to get the secret out.Is not true that clark and lana love the image they have of each other and that their relationship is moslty fisic,i think its the opposite their love is a deep connection that resisted everything and anytime they break up and get back together is stronger than before, and thats why they always get back together after all.

Clark only and real love is lana and i dont think he ever felt actually something for chloe.Clana relationship is the real one of SV u can see it so many times,the look in their eyes ,how cant people see that?they love each other since the very first episode,and they'll always be.

lois is the annoying one,she totally lightswitch at clark just cause he starts to be and to dress more adult in s8,showing us how shallow she and their relationship is and i started to totally see her as the worste character after season 9,when once she discovers clark secret she does the biggest lightswitch of the show,she became more devote,she trust him she encourage him,but she starts to manipulating him as well expecting for him to open up...what a false person,lois never really respected clark and probably she is the one character that doesnt even know what privacy is,for god sake she stole from a crime scene,what kind of person would do that?she is the most scorrrect and un ethic person from the good guys,and she dont get any consequnce for her stupid actions as well and she does so many in the series,among with stealing information from chloe and clark that almost get her killed ine that fight club,and giving clark one more prooblem to think about,she rummage into clarks stuff spying for zod/the blur and she steal the book of rao from clark,then she opens the box martha sent to clark with the new suit...

anyone here said lana want to know everything,lois doesnt just becase she has so little faith in clark she really doesnt see anymore that the farmboy,but she would be eventually the most invasive one in knowing it.and chloe yes is amazing but for the first 3/4 season she is pretty lame and manipulative,she make feel guilty both clark and lana cause they love each other and desrespect clark a lot,but none seems to notice that.

Lana getting mad at clark is a common thing to give her the blame of being cinic,but when he ask her out and then dump her?when she caught him kissing chloe?(u got to see it from lana eyes,she see the boy she in love from 2 years basically dump her cause he found something better to do,at least thats how it appears to her,plus is that hard for the future superman keep a 50kg girl away from him?)when after clark gets back from metropolis he break out with her?or when even thou lana during season 3 wait and hope for clark,he just dont make a move till she decide to go to paris,and step back even that time?when he forgets he should have took her to the airport?when he destroy her heart and she starts dating lex?

u see the thing just from clark eyes  and yes he wants to protect her but u cant blame lana acting suspicious or bad to this, truth is lana is the sweetest character and thats why she is so emotinal about stuff,cause she get hurt a lot from that,and i think the only one clark REALLY wanted to share his secret,but after reckoning he just understand its dangerous,cause she would be in the middle of aliens and stuff,like actually happens with lex.

Chloe is amazing but just as a friend,lois will never be enough to desrve clark.People admit the fact that lana is the one that really trusted him before anyone else,before chloe and way much more before lois,and if she sometimes lose faith in him,is just clarks fault,but in the end she loves him that even wehn with lex get sirious relationship she always have faith and hope that eventually she could be with cark,always look back at him.LANA MADE THE BIGGEST SACRIFICE FOR CLARK,DAMN SHE MARRIED LEX TO PROTECT HIM.

And yes the whole bizzarro thing kinda made me think about it,but in the end we can say that bizzarro never acted bizzarly with lana,she had really no clue to doubt about him,maybe just the fact that he was opening up(and yeah thats a thing that clark dont do neither with lois,well we can say especially),but that could have been even him since they were in a fight before he disapperead and think about chloe,she realize just when he got upset and actually acted weird,but as much as lana chloe thought that was clark for one month.Why none spreading sweet hate on her?

Lana always respetced clark and give him so many chances ,until he totally destroy her heart.I dont understand Chalrk shipper,there is no and there s nevver been anything more than friendhsip between em,and thats clear after the season one last episode,about Clois ,is a lottery win for lois and just a good-enough settle down for clark that he has to get satisfied of and eventually he 'll learn to love,but Clana is the the big love of the show and the real story of 2 soulmates that destiny didnt want to be together...a perfect example is when they actually have a really adult relationship,even if just for one episode(8x14) clark will never be that happy and satisfied with lois ,and truth is that hater gonna hate,aand usually they hate someone that deeply theyr jeaoulus of.The only girl that really deserves clark is lana,because not just she pushes him and she belive in him as a farmboy,wich is what makes superman the hero we know,but cause she does that since the very first time being friend,and neither chloe or lois can claim that,no matter how could they change in the future i think the first impression is what really count in a comparison,with out any time,issues or secret that could influence their image of clark.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[AndySmith]

Wow.

Edited November 29, 2016 by AndySmith

[BkWurm1]

I tried, I really tried to read the whole post but I gave up at about two thirds into it.  Just a friendly suggestion for any future posts; adding paragraph breaks and spaces after sentences and using capitalization makes it much easier to read.  I'm all for really long posts and I could tell you had a lot of knowledge and thought behind the post, but the format means very few will ever be able to figure that out.  

BUT for the record, I thought Lois was nearly as awful as you did.  I just equally disliked Lana.  I do acknowledge that they had a more believable IMO connection and love for each other than Lois and Clark ever did, I just maintain that Lana and Clark both were far more caught up in the idea of who each other was than in love with the real person.  

Clark supposedly fell in love with her on sight as a kid and then because of her necklace, spent years and years fantasizing about her from afar.  It's right there in the narrative that Clark idealized a Lana he only really knew in his imagination.  When they finally got together at the end of season two, that was Clark trying to put on an act and be the kind of man Lana deserved, he told her as much in the beginning of season three.

Lana might have said he hadn't needed to try, but not too many episodes later Lana agreed that Clark was right.  And she was real quick to blame Clark for all her ills when she was babysitting a crazy/poisoned Lex and was introduced to Stompy the Horse.  That was Clark letting her in to who he really was and she couldn't handle it.  

She only turned back to Clark in season four because she got tired of Jason (aka plot made him evil and so she had to fall out of love with him even though she had no reason to do so) and started idealizing her old relationship with Clark.  In season five even though she and Clark were together, both were hiding the most important parts of each other from each other. (like always)  

By season seven, both she and Clark took putting on facades to another level while playing house, hiding the truth about who they really were and what they really wanted from each other.  

Both genuinely wanted their love for each other to be real and to work, but we saw that at first Lana was more interested in revenge on Lex than love with Clark and then we find out the she actually loved the phantom that promised to turn it's back on everything Clark held most dear, telling Chloe that she, Lana, knew Clark better, but instead, her actions proved that she really didn't understand or know Clark and it proved that he wasn't really what she wanted and needed (even if the denial went on after the Phantom was killed).

On Clark's side, even though she knew his secret, he didn't share that part of his life with her and later he could barely stand to be in the same room with Lana knowing that she'd been happier with the phantom that wanted to abandon his friends and obligations and just concentrate on Lana and before they really got that conflict resolved, she was attacked, falling into the coma, and Clark's guilt over what happened pushed him to neglect being the hero he needed to be to save the world.  They just weren't good for each other.  

And that observation isn't based on jealousy or some sense of comic destiny.  It's based on what I saw on the screen from day one.  Lana had a surface sweetness, but her actions and choices  and deeper motives were in my opinion, sour.  

Even the supposed proof of Lana's ultimate devotion, that she married Lex to protect Clark; you can't say her actions are the be all and end all when Chloe was just as willing to run off with Davis if it meant keeping him from killing Clark.  And lets be honest, Chloe actually knew that Clark was in mortal peril.  More than twice he hadn't been able to beat Doomsday.  She knew nothing could kill Davis. 

 Lana was just cowed by Lionel feeding her lies and tricking her into thinking Clark couldn't possibly win just because Kryptonite existed.  That he wasn't totally invulnerable meant to her that he was completely vulnerable.  She showed zero trust in his ability to defend himself and she based her decision on a total lack of knowledge.  She had no real facts and in the end she never trusted him or her friends and instead faked her death and would have let them all think she was dead if Lex hadn't basically had a religious awakening and told her she could come home.   

So while I understand that you greatly enjoyed Lana and her romance with Clark, and more power to you, I adamantly reject that I did not have copious and legitimate reasons to dislike Lana or to see her romance with Clark as deeply flawed.    

Edited November 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Sirious Dude]

Yeah i didn't realize how much long it was till i published,its just i keep having idea and i write them,imma edit it after.  

I dont think they loved the ideal person,actually the opposite they were totally in love with the real person i think more that they simply didnt know each other,but still they had this deep love-connection and they felt that they wanted to be together,they just had to figure out how. Anyways u maybe right u can say they were not a great couple in the first attempts ,but nothing is perfect and any relationship most of the time needs to be adjusted,with time and patient,and there are ups and downs,if it work too good something probably is wrong,or you are really lucky.With any break up and getting back together they improve their relationship,and thats what make it actually good.Thats the challenge.Thats the proof of their love.If they actually were just in love with the ideal person,do u really think they would have tried so hard and so many times?

Maybe for starters clark did idealized lana,just cause he didnt knew her and wanted to give a personality beyond the physical aspect to that strong love he felt,so he just thought of her as the perfect girl for his standard.Lana actually admitted that she wasnt the perfect girl clark sees,and they eventually started to know each other and even if they weren't the person they tought to be,their love was still there.And i dont think clark tried to be the man for lana,he was being himself just he wasnt ready to tell her his secret,we can't say that lana didnt wait for him tho.And yeah she actually said that with the horse story,but from my POV lana just said the truth,she admitted that clark was right about the danger situation clark tend to get in,but she didnt blame clark,actually none blame clark,he blame himself all alone. 

Its mean to say she get tired of jason,cause thats not true.Lana acted with jason as she already did with clark before,she gave him many chances but he didnt get them,plus she didnt idealize her realationship with clark,heck even when she was with jason we can see she was still in love with clark,jason noticed that as well.Plus jason was meant to be bad,and the more he started to show his real face the more lana started to get away from him.And when no-memory clark ask lana out we can see that she actually was still waiting for him,no matter what,lana did seriosly waited a lot.

Then in season 5 we can see how their relationship could actually work,with no secrets as usually relationship should be,with both part opening to each other.Then clark has his power back still keeping them secret,then reckoning and when lana wanted to talk about her ufo experience he simply pushed her away,so she started to keep that as a secret and working with lex.To notice that is clark that actually start the relationship to fall apart,lana always try pretty hard.When clark tell her his feelings changed,her world completly fall upon.I think for lana clark is like everything,we know she has no family and she feels alone,and clark always made this feeling goes away,and lana did that for him as well,they like complete each other.Thats why im so sure none loved clark more than lana.

I dont want to exculpate lana for what she did about lex and lionel,but u cant really blame her.I mean i dont think she would kidnapped lionel if he asked her to marry lex to protec clark,if he explained the truth instead of threaten her with his death.She wanted tho to make lex pay for his crime,crime that she felt part of since sometimes she even covered lex dirty stuff,even tho she didnt know.Plus she realized how lex manipulated her  and how all their relationship was a big manipulated set up,with all those fake truth and false honesty,the perfect engagement with the fake pregnancy,the depression she got when she lost the baby,last hope of that forced marriage,all the lies all the pain all the sadness that she had to suffer even before the actual marriage,plus the fact that she actually even learned to love him a lil bit.Now figure when she discovered the fake pregnacy how lex true face came out,how his card castle fall apart leaving her to the cruel truth,that she has been brain washed,that what she tought was her finally honest man that even tho as a second choice she even married,that she trusted and gave herself to him,turn out to be the more dishonest of the man she has been with and how he caged her...all those feeling,bad and good, that she had till that moment started to invade her mind and she start to have a physical reaction feel confused and start to realize how her last period of life she didnt even have the free will,but was all orchestrated.Then all that become a huge rage,and the more she thinks about it the more this rage grow...That really would take the darkest side of everyone out.

The whole bizarro plot is compicated mixed with bad writing.Did actually lana even know that there was a fake clark out there?If she didnt,how could she realize that was not clark,if he was in red k wouldnt act like that,she thought he maybe just really wanted to focus more on the relationship,since last thing they were in a fight.If bizzarro stayed with lana for a month,that means that chloe was as blind as lana,or was that time he asked for the shield the first time they met after he came back?That time he really acted weird,lana would have realized that wasnt clark too,maybe with the whole leave smallville thing,but he still acted like clark.The reason lana felt good and in love that month tho wasnt the fact they wanted to leave SV,more the fact that she get attention and we can see during the episode thats what she really wants and needs,a clark that loves her and appreciate her.In that moment probably lana needed a more romantic relationship,she needed more love to forget all the pain from last period of her life.So its not they are not what they want from each other,its more like that clark had to appreciate lana and shouldnt take her for granted.

Clark neglected her,thinking that tell her his secret was enough,as i said they simply keep having some kind of lack in their relationship.But still soul mate doesnt mean everything will be just good and easy,things need to get worked on.Maybe yes,like u said they weren't good together or they more and likely weren't READY to be together,but just in season 7 cause after all they have been trought,they needed time to set their life up.We can clearly see how they actually are not just good,but even perfect together in season 5 and 8,when their actual mind set up is not upside down.

Why would lana action be so sour to u?Give me some examples,what make u think that?I always appreciated lana as character not just for her relation with clark,far way better than chloe,who presumable great friendship was all about knowing clark secret.Before that she wasnt a greater friend than lana,actually she was sometime worste.How many time clark asked her to stay away from his past but she didnt give a fuck and started to look at the adoption.Wasnt sour and selfish when she was going to ask clark parents the questions he wouldnt answer,knowing that they didnt have the free will of lie?She admitted that time she didnt like the fact he was keeping secret from her,like if he was forced to tell her,and she was basically going to hardly invade his pricavy in order to have her selfish knowledge,with absolutly no rights to do that.

Yeah chloe did run with davis as well,but that does not make lana less devoted.And besides the fact that none forced chloe,that it was completely her choice  to run with davis,we can say that somehow she was even kinda enjoyng that time,wasnt that kind of painfull  and depressed time lana as has been trought with lex,it was quiet and enjoyable,watching starts and doing what u want on ur free will no conditions by third part.Plus clark beated doomsday pretty easly in the end,didnt he?

When lionel threaten lana,her first reaction is to truly belive that he could never hurt clark,but as lionel clearly knew much more than her you have to see from SV world pov,where lionel is a powerfull man whose threats are dangerous and he know what he's doing,so yeah she eventually give up.Its clear that she have a lack of knowledge,she dont know nothing about clark but the strenght,speed and heat vision,so instead of saying she doesnt trust him u could say she loves clark so much that she didnt want to take the risk of him failing to protect himself.Plus we can see in 7x14 how lionel threat wasnt just talking,he was completly able to kidnap,torture,keep caged and eventually kill clark.She actually didnt trust clark and her friends or simply didnt want to involve them in that crazy and un ethic plan?Or she knew clark wouldnt let her do what she wanted to do?She wanted to frame lex before he could do anything against her,he did actually threatened her and he even beat her and u can see during the break up conversation that she is actually scared of lex,she know he is unstable and that he could be dangerous.Dont u think lana would have returned even without lex and his fake good intentions,eventually?

I dont say u have to like it as well,anyone is different and has different taste,my point was more on the fact that people cant blame it all on lana and spread hate on what,in my opinion,is the only girl that really deserves clark.Yeah that means chloe is not worthy as well...Anyone on the show has made bad decision,like lex said  "you cant judge someone by your last conversation,but the whole relationship".That could be applied to behaviour as well,thats why u shouldnt blame lana for her last period.

Maybe In the end u see their romance that flaweed,cause you want to see it like that.Cause ur just noticing the bads and not the goods.If u focus on something in particular u will just see that,i try to be objective,to make point of pro and cons.

Their relationship is the perfect example of no matter how many failure,if u really want something u always try again till u succeed.

Here,i found it on a blog,what creators and writers thought of the whole clana relationship

"This is what Al Gough had to say about Clark and Lana from the beginning of SV:

You feel there's a soul-mate connection between Lana and Clark. And whether or not he ends up with that person, it's . . . How does that person affect the man he'll become? Yes, he goes on, and he's with Lois, but did he ever get over Lana? Was she the one who got away? Because maybe, at that point in life, he couldn't be honest or deal with it. With Clark and Lana, you have a little bit of the star-crossed lovers, and a little bit of When Harry Met Sally.

So if Lois ends up being a rebound the creators meant for it to be that way from the beginning of SV. Also, I think Steven De Knight said that it was the intention of the show for Lana to be Clark's love interest from the beginning to the end of SV. So really Clark and Lois never really had a chance on SV. If KK's contract had not been finished then the scenes that we have in season 8 between Clark and Lois would never have taken place. This show would probably have ended with the marriage of Clark and Lana. Heck, if Lana does come back for the series finale, whenever that is, they probably will marry them to one another.

Wow, enough said. There you have it from the writer's mouth. 
-Basically we have Clark possibly never getting over Lana, even when he's with Lois. What do you think Cloisers?
-We also have the possibility that Clois would never even have happened had Lana stayed.
-Clana was to go from the beginning to the end of the series.
-Per KK's words, she may come back in S9 for a few eps toward the end of the series if she's given good material."

Edited December 4, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[Sirious Dude]

On 18/10/2015 at 6:51 AM, Gilmorefan said:

The physical aspect of their relationship was obviously important to Lana, because she can't be around Clark if she can't touch him, which isn't exactly an indicator of some great love.

Clark: Don't leave. Don't leave again, Lana. Even if we can't be together, I want you in my life.

Lana: That's where you're stronger than me. To... to see you... on the street every day... And not be able to touch Y... stay. No. Clark, don't. Clark.

Anyway, I said earlier that I would try to defend Clois. And then I realized that I'm not really sure why people don't like them, so if anyone would like to chime in and give me some reasons, I think I'd be able to construct a defense.

Ok,so that obviously is bad writing since they had no physical things in s7 and still they were together.And how could they even live in the same house if they couldnt get 3 m from each other,and more than anything i think that she means that would be a continuos pain for them,since keeping see each other they will never be able to get over enough to start new relationships.

Plus u just said that the importance of physical aspect isnt a indicator of great love,and then u want to defend clois?Clois relationship is all about physical,lois start to be interested in clark in the same exact moment he changed his clothes from farmboy to charm reporter,and clark start feeling attracted for lois cause after that she basically bombard him with allussion,double sense and the kind of dirty flirt sluts does.And thats it,maybe lois then get more involved with clark,but for him thats basically his relationship with lois.

Im dont believe in chlark,even tho clark admits he thought about that at lex and lana engagement dinner,but to be honest i d prefer much more clark ending up with chloe than with lois,i think its more respectfull for clark.

[BkWurm1]

Serius dude, you make a lot of interesting points.  

I talked about season 2 and 3 in my last post so I won't rehash that but about season 4...

Quote

Its mean to say she get tired of jason,cause thats not true.Lana acted with jason as she already did with clark before,she gave him many chances but he didnt get them,plus she didnt idealize her realationship with clark,heck even when she was with jason we can see she was still in love with clark,jason noticed that as well.Plus jason was meant to be bad,and the more he started to show his real face the more lana started to get away from him.And when no-memory clark ask lana out we can see that she actually was still waiting for him,no matter what,lana did seriosly waited a lot

It might be not so nice to say she got tired of Jason, but that's all I saw on screen.

At the end of season 4 Jason went evil, but the writing from the start did not indicate that.  In fact there are things at the end of the season that directly contradict things from the beginning that IMO proved show runners changed their minds and retroactively made Jason evil when he wasn't intended that way (and actually I've heard since that they had to write him out because of Supernatural)  So I can't accept that Lana pulling away when she did - when Jason hadn't done anything bad or shady  - was a good enough excuse for her sudden lack of interest in him.  After she started pulling away, that's when Jason started acting off, not IMO the other way around.  

I've never liked that aspect of Lana's personality, that she always has someone waiting in the wings before she breaks up with someone.  Even with Clark in season five, she had Lex and while she only threatened to break up with Clark and Clark was the one that actually did the breaking up, Lex was still right there, ready for her to turn to since she'd already laid the emotional ground work down while she was having problems with Clark.  

With Jason, she started being dissatisfied and instead of working on her relationship, she started pulling away and pining for Clark, but the reason I do call it idealizing him is that their past actually should have had Lana deciding that Clark was not the guy for her since except for physical saves, he was never there for her that way she wanted or needed.  Why she thought any of that would change, is beyond me. 

She actually got lucky since season five brought about changes so that Clark COULD be there for her but it was at the expense of his powers and his destiny.  He'd rescued Lana but rather than race back to the Fortress to keep his promise to Jor-El, he stayed with Lana ...and he lost his powers. And then later because he didn't have his powers, he was shot, died, came back and then basically Jor-El let him know that would cost him the life of someone he loved.  Sorry Jonathan.  It was Clark's choice so I don't blame Lana, but Clark made the wrong choice.    

While he was de powered he was pretty happy with the normal life and so was Lana, but it wasn't his real life.  It was his at that stage in his life, HIS idealized life.  Just be normal and live a normal life.  But that's not who Clark is and Clark was never willing to bring Lana into his real life.  Not even when the truth could have saved her from marrying Lex.  

Season seven had Clark and Lana both pretending that they could have that normal life.  But not only couldn't they have normal, I think we saw that Clark was moving away from even wanting just normal and Lana might have wanted it (as we saw with Bizarro) but without running away across the ocean, she couldn't get away from her Lex obsession long enough to find it.  

I don't really blame Lana for being messed up after dealing with Lex and LIonel, but I do judge her for ignoring all the warnings that came from people that she should have trusted.   I also question which were really stronger after the Lex stuff - her feelings of love for Clark or her feelings of hate for Lex.  

I don't deny that Lana and Clark had real feelings or that they wanted to be together, but I do question for one if it was ever a real possibility since they couldn't seem to ever be honest with each other.

But more than that, what I saw seemed to say that anytime they were truly honest with themselves, they realized they would never work out because they simply wanted and needed different things.  I think them wanting to be together was an idealized fantasy in itself.  

First Clark tried to hide who he was and then Lana was hiding who she really was and later literally tried to change who she was so they could be together.   

 

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The whole bizarro plot is compicated mixed with bad writing.Did actually lana even know that there was a fake clark out there?If she didnt,how could she realize that was not clark

Chloe didn't know there was a fake Clark either, but she knew something was wrong from his behavior and she knew what town they lived in and that meant something was up.  Lana didn't deny that Clark was different, but she liked the changes so much that she was willing to live in denial that there was something wrong and blame Chloe for having issues over how Clark had changed rather than face the truth.  Lana thought the changes that focused on their relationship to the exclusion of the needs of the world made sense for Clark.  But all it proved to me was that Lana wanted something different than Clark.  She preferred the idealized version come to life.  

Then when she came out of her coma, the initial version had her realizing that she and Clark weren't going to work.  The reworked version had her kidnapped, escaping and running off to change who she was currently since apparently she must have believed her forced video.  But even changing her DNA wasn't enough.  

I know we saw was looked like Clark and Lana finally getting their HEA, but I believe that even if the bio suit that Lana stole hadn't absorbed Kryptonite, I believe they would have found they wanted different things.  

For one, Lana didn't actually want to be out their saving people.  I say that since she never did anything with it for the rest of the series.  ( I don't count the comic since that was just one writer basically doing pictorial fanfiction, lol. ) According to the show, Lana was never involved even when the world was in danger.  The show could have easily mentioned her doing something on the otherside of the world without needing KK to show up.  It was a choice IMO that Lana was just out there living her life in as normal a way as possible.  That's what she really wanted.  Not for all the sacrifices the life of a hero required. 

Lana could have stayed nearby after she turned into walking Kryptonite, but she found it too hard that way it was.  She wanted all or nothing.  The reality that she could have at that time with Clark was not enough for her, not even enough for her to bide her time in hopes of some kind of solution.  

And when Lana left, Clark moved on.  Now, there could possibly be a case for saying that he was still messed up over Lana, thus explaining his weird switch to Lois out of nowhere and a relationship with her that seemed even more full of secrets with the added bonuses of being more emotionally disconnected from her and living life with more lines between what he was and wasn't willing to share with her even after she knew everything about him.  It was no longer about his secret, just what was his business and what was hers and he liked it like that (which is directly opposite of what he really wanted, a partner in all parts of life like his parents had been).  But Lois is a totally different and depressing subject.     

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[BkWurm1]

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.If bizzarro stayed with lana for a month,that means that chloe was as blind as lana,or was that time he asked for the shield the first time they met after he came back?

When the Phantom first took over Clark's life Chloe saw him when he first came back.  There was a hug and a thanks (since Biz Clark rescues her and Jimmy) but then a month later we learned since then he hadn't been around really at all.

On 12/1/2016 at 1:05 AM, Sirious Dude said:

The reason lana felt good and in love that month tho wasnt the fact they wanted to leave SV,more the fact that she get attention and we can see during the episode thats what she really wants and needs,a clark that loves her and appreciate her.In that moment probably lana needed a more romantic relationship,she needed more love to forget all the pain from last period of her life.So its not they are not what they want from each other,its more like that clark had to appreciate lana and shouldnt take her for granted.

I see Lana needing more from Clark and Clark not giving it as more than him taking her for granted.  They couldn't seem to create a dynamic where they could get from each other what they wanted and needed.  Biz Clark was able to give Lana the attention she needed because he neglected everyone else in his life.  He wasn't around for anyone else but Lana.  Leaving Smallville was a way for him to just cut any of those other parts of Clark's life away for good.  And unless Lana was an idiot, she had to realize the implications and yet she was ok with it.  Yes she was blinded by being in love and being happy but that's my point, Clark can't make her happy with his real life.  

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Why would lana action be so sour to u?Give me some examples,what make u think that?

Lana on the show came across to me as fake.  That her niceness was just a surface layer.  The show again and again reinforced my impression.  I actually liked her more when in season seven she and the show stopped pretending she was good or nice.  

I had done a long list of examples but neither of us are going to change each other's minds so I'll give just the first one that made such a big impression on me.  

That in season one even though she knew that her boyfriend Whitney had Scare Crowed Clark - which was a really nasty "prank" that had a town history of leaving a kid permanently in a coma and in real life would have gotten Whitney jail time, Lana  was willing to ignore it because Whitney climbed a tree and found her.  Made her feel safe.  That told me that she really didn't care how people treated other people, just how they treated her.  So I found her selfish. And I saw that most of Lana's time on screen was about her and even when other people came to her about something else, giving the chance, she turned it around to be about her.  Pretty much always.  

It didn't help that she seemed to use and discard people when they weren't useful...until they were again, but in the meantime, she would act like she didn't even know them.  Like her aunt or Whitney and Clark a few times and Chloe as well.  Some talk about how Chloe had stronger feeling for Clark than Clark did for her but it's absolutely the case between Chloe and Lana.  Chloe was a very good friend to Lana but I can't say the opposite.

In the early years, my issue with Lana was a combination of things, her behavior and attitude influenced me a great deal but Clark's mistreatment of the people around him in favor of Lana really was a huge negative for me as well as the show's habit of trying to treat her as perfect when she was anything but.  Do you know how many times people apologized to her after she did something wrong?  

 

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I always appreciated lana as character not just for her relation with clark,far way better than chloe,who presumable great friendship was all about knowing clark secret.Before that she wasnt a greater friend than lana,actually she was sometime worste.How many time clark asked her to stay away from his past but she didnt give a fuck and started to look at the adoption.Wasnt sour and selfish when she was going to ask clark parents the questions he wouldnt answer,knowing that they didnt have the free will of lie?She admitted that time she didnt like the fact he was keeping secret from her,like if he was forced to tell her,and she was basically going to hardly invade his pricavy in order to have her selfish knowledge,with absolutly no rights to do that.

 Chloe while she was under the influence of the truth power was not herself.  Clark even said that to her.  Even so, she was deeply remorseful.  Before that when she'd dug into, the first time was just because of a school project.  Then Clark asked her to stop but she didn't, but she wasn't digging to to root out his secrets but to help him get answers.  She totally messed up in deciding to get answers when he didn't want them, but she was 14 and thought she was doing him a favor.  Her intentions were good.  Still, she came to understand her mistake and apologized and stopped digging.

When she was 15 she hurt and mad and made the deal with Lionel, but not only did she regret it right away, she didn't give up any special info on Clark,  and nearly paid with her life in trying to make things right.  And she again learned from her mistakes and apologized and felt terrible. 

Chloe doesn't actually do any digging on Clark except for the truth serum thing after messing up at 14.  She's always digging into the wall of weird, but she doesn't know that's Clark.

 In season four Chloe has a conversation with Clark where she chooses their friendship over figuring out his secret.  She knew there was one and she couldn't help noticing the constant odd things that happened with Clark - it was stuff that was happening to her too, but she agreed to not look into it.  When she later is shown his secret, she immediately even stops her public research into the wall of weird stuff.  

Lana never reached the point of letting Clark keep his secret.  She felt she deserved to know and maybe she did, but Chloe stopped digging even when the truth was right there in front of her.  Lana was out of high school and about to get married when she stole Clark's secret.  There is a marked contrast IMO.       

 

 

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Yeah chloe did run with davis as well,but that does not make lana less devoted.And besides the fact that none forced chloe,that it was completely her choice  to run with davis,we can say that somehow she was even kinda enjoyng that time,wasnt that kind of painfull  and depressed time lana as has been trought with lex,it was quiet and enjoyable,watching starts and doing what u want on ur free will no conditions by third part.Plus clark beated doomsday pretty easly in the end,didnt he?

Fun?  Sure except for the part where he could turn into a unstoppable killling machine at anytime if she didn't keep him happy.  Chloe was as much a prisoner as Lana, more so since she had to leave her whole life behind while Lana was able to still see her friends and family.  

And Clark didn't defeat Doomsday, he managed to bury Doomsday after he was split (weakened) from Davis.  

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She actually didnt trust clark and her friends or simply didnt want to involve them in that crazy and un ethic plan?Or she knew clark wouldnt let her do what she wanted to do?She wanted to frame lex before he could do anything against her,he did actually threatened her and he even beat her and u can see during the break up conversation that she is actually scared of lex,she know he is unstable and that he could be dangerous.Dont u think lana would have returned even without lex and his fake good intentions,eventually?

Lana deliberately provoked Lex into hitting her.  She set him up.  He shouldn't have hit her or lost control, but she knew what she was doing and got what she wanted so she COULD frame him and I really don't think Lana had any plan in mind  to keep from her friends when she chose to marry Lex.  There's no way she knew about the clones at that time.  And no, I don't think Lana had any intentions of coming back.  She'd faked her death and framed Lex.  She would have been a wanted woman without Lex clearing things up.  

And the thing is, Lex had made her think she was pregnant and that was a huge violation but did he deserve to think his wife who he loved was dead and to go for jail for something he had not done?  Lex was not the one that forced Lana into marriage and he wasn't the one forcing her to stay. Lionel was doing that but Lana took her revenge against both.  

Lex deserved to be dumped for being so cruel as to faking the baby- even if his motives weren't all that awful - but Lex was deceived going into the marriage as well.  He thought - for the second time - that the woman marrying him loved him and wanted to marry him.  He was very wrong.  And for that, Lana had planned on ruining the rest of his life and branding him a murderer.   

 

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I dont say u have to like it as well,anyone is different and has different taste,my point was more on the fact that people cant blame it all on lana and spread hate on what,in my opinion,is the only girl that really deserves clark.Yeah that means chloe is not worthy as well...Anyone on the show has made bad decision,like lex said  "you cant judge someone by your last conversation,but the whole relationship".That could be applied to behaviour as well,thats why u shouldnt blame lana for her last period.

 

See that's my thing, I've had problems with Lana from the start and her behavior only got more manipulative and secretive.  She was never honest with Clark.  Even right through getting the super suit.  All lies.  All secrets.  All Lana.

Chloe is not perfect but she's had Clark's back at the sacrifice to her own life from basically season three on.  As late as the end of nine, she's erased herself from history because Fate said it was the only way she could save Clark and the others.  Chloe kept secrets, but they served the greater good.  Lana's seemed to serve herself before all else.  

 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

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This is what Al Gough had to say about Clark and Lana from the beginning of SV:

You feel there's a soul-mate connection between Lana and Clark. And whether or not he ends up with that person, it's . . . How does that person affect the man he'll become? Yes, he goes on, and he's with Lois, but did he ever get over Lana? Was she the one who got away? Because maybe, at that point in life, he couldn't be honest or deal with it. With Clark and Lana, you have a little bit of the star-crossed lovers, and a little bit of When Harry Met Sally.

So if Lois ends up being a rebound the creators meant for it to be that way from the beginning of SV. Also, I think Steven De Knight said that it was the intention of the show for Lana to be Clark's love interest from the beginning to the end of SV. So really Clark and Lois never really had a chance on SV. If KK's contract had not been finished then the scenes that we have in season 8 between Clark and Lois would never have taken place. This show would probably have ended with the marriage of Clark and Lana. Heck, if Lana does come back for the series finale, whenever that is, they probably will marry them to one another.

Wow, enough said. There you have it from the writer's mouth. 
-Basically we have Clark possibly never getting over Lana, even when he's with Lois. What do you think Cloisers?
-We also have the possibility that Clois would never even have happened had Lana stayed.
-Clana was to go from the beginning to the end of the series.
-Per KK's words, she may come back in S9 for a few eps toward the end of the series if she's given good material."

 

That's a pretty confusing quote since you were quoting someone both quoting and referring to a couple things and offering their opinion and commentary. It's someone's interpretation and speculation, not really fact.  Only the part I put in bold was an actual quote.  

Yes, the creators of the show saw Lana and Clark as star crossed lovers and they've also commented elsewhere that they were telling a tragedy in Lana and Clark.  I don't disagree.  I do disagree that Clark and Lana were ever a When Harry Met Sally kind of couple since they never had that dynamic where the first couple times they met they didn't like each other followed by being super best friends and only then of falling in love.  Clark was always hung up on Lana.  I was watching a show where he just needed to grow out of it.

The remark attributed to Deknight, a producer and writer that the original intentions were that Lana would be the romantic interest for the whole show run needs to be taken in context.  Originally the entire show was planned only to go five seasons.  That would have put them in their first year of college.  But even that plan went out the window because even when they moved Smallville to a new night and the show runners were afraid they were going to be cancelled, the story they chose to tell that season was of Clana breaking up and Chlark getting super close.  So initial intentions didn't last.  

I also disagree that that Lois was intended to be a rebound relationship.  Had the show runners done as initially planned, Clark meeting Lois would have been years away from the end of the show.  There's no reason to think that Clark wouldn't have been in the right place to have genuine feelings for Lois in the initial plan.  That said, what actually happened on screen certainly jibes with Clark being with Lois cause he was desperate and Lois was there.  I just disagree that the show runners were intending for that to be the case.  The reality was new show runners got put in charge and they basically said screw continuity, lets skip to the part where Lois and Clark are together.    

[Sirious Dude]

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

With Jason, she started being dissatisfied and instead of working on her relationship, she started pulling away and pining for Clark, but the reason I do call it idealizing him is that their past actually should have had Lana deciding that Clark was not the guy for her since except for physical saves, he was never there for her that way she wanted or needed.  Why she thought any of that would change, is beyond me. 

I disagree,she still has feeling for clark yes,but when she was with jason she didnt thought about clark in that way and she was pretty satisfied.But then jason decided to leave her after he discovers his mother orchestrated their meeting,i think its 4x10 when they all get nightmares...When after all she get back home with dinner and jason was packing and leaving.Then in the next episode she thought he wanted a "different kind of relationship",and try to set things up,but jason refuse but they still manage to save their relationship.

When clark is with alicia lana is happy with jason,and she remains like that till she gets angry cause he went to china after the stones and lied to her.In that ep we have some tense moment between clark and lana prooving they still have feelings for each other,but in the finale jason and her just clarify.Then she starts to have doubt about jason when,after her apartment get robbed and the stone is gone,he goes to lionel and beat him and threat him to give the stone back or to proof he didnt take it.Is when lana sees that scene that start to pull away from him cause she told him to leave stones and artifact in the past and try to rebuild the paris mood,but he clearly is more obssessed than she thought.So we can say she did in the end tried to work her relationship with jason,many times,but it was jason in the end that didnt try to really keep it.

After that she starts to have second thought about her relationship with jason,thinking he may not be the man she thought he was.When lex gets his evil part splitted,lana says to clark about knowing someone but then discovering a part u didnt know and getting shoked by that,referring to jason.Then after the prom,jason and lana have a fight cause she admits she had second thought and he even asks how much time she was thinking bout that cause feeling doesnt change in one night.Jason kinda attacks lana and accused her of how much he did protect her,and they eventually break up.

She didnt pine for clark,Is no memory clark that dont knowing of jason asks lana out saying this time will be different and she believes that,even cause after getting his memory back and forgetting that day, clark used the same words and they start to slowly rebuild a relationship.Lana was no longer with jason tho.

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

While he was de powered he was pretty happy with the normal life and so was Lana, but it wasn't his real life.  It was his at that stage in his life, HIS idealized life.  Just be normal and live a normal life.  But that's not who Clark is and Clark was never willing to bring Lana into his real life.  Not even when the truth could have saved her from marrying Lex.  

Yeah but it was clark that made that decision and that thought this was the only way to stay with her,and mostly that was not a idealized life,that was the life clark always wanted,he wanted to be normal.

Now i dont want to offend,but u are distorting the truth ."Never willing to bring lana into his real life?"Lana is THE ONLY person that he really was willing to tell his secret(maybe just lois after) and he actually do in reckoning,other people just discovered it.Always in reckoning we can see that it was clark paranoia that she wouldnt accept him and we can see they clearly are happy,and chloe says it as well "u know what she answer just have to keep her away from lex."He decide to not tell her cause he saw that within a day she was dead cause of that secret.He was telling her the truth even to save her from lex,but she says u dont owe me anything and decide by her self to marry lex to protect clark.This are facts that we can see in the series,you cant deny that.

 

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Season seven had Clark and Lana both pretending that they could have that normal life.  But not only couldn't they have normal, I think we saw that Clark was moving away from even wanting just normal and Lana might have wanted it (as we saw with Bizarro) but without running away across the ocean, she couldn't get away from her Lex obsession long enough to find it.  

I don't really blame Lana for being messed up after dealing with Lex and LIonel, but I do judge her for ignoring all the warnings that came from people that she should have trusted.   I also question which were really stronger after the Lex stuff - her feelings of love for Clark or her feelings of hate for Lex.  

Clark admits in s7 that he finally have all he wants,a normal farm life with the girl he loves,thats what he wanted and he was good with that.Had a family with kara and was living honestly(from his side) with lana.After lana getting clark power,she shut down her obsession with lex,so we can say that her feelings for clark are stronger.

Lana and lex relationship is a whole topic for me,clark warned her but after the heartbroken he gave her she was in love denial and muted that love in hate,chloe at the start warned her but then she did even tell her u cant look at people swimming u must swim too or something like that,but point is she kinda pushed lana in that relationship.After chloe warn lana and threat lex,lex starts to keep lana way from her friends,he started to take control of her life.So it wasnt she didnt trust her firend,but as chloe made her notice,maybe she was forced to leave her friend.Lana simply didnt realized that cause at that time she was a puppet in lex hands,exaclty as she claimed not to be with clark.Thats manipulation dude,u cant really do anything about that,clark fell in lex tricks too.

Am i the only one that noticed that lana was dragged by lex in that relationship? During whole season 5 lex pry on the doubt that lana has about clark and he make her have more doubt,in the meanwhile he manipulated her to trust him saying such thing like "clark will never trust u,but i do" "u can trust me" "i know clark needs u,but when u need someone im here"...lex basically shits clark a lot and he was her confidant so basically she told him all the problem with clark,he abused that position to gain information on what lana wanted and when johnny kent dies,lex even keep hitting on lana.

Then lex start to pull lana away from clark,and he managed to definely break them up with that hypno girl.That even devasted lana mind status and made her extremly vulnerable,so lex is able to instill a connection between them.He slowly starts to break all the taboos of a friendhsip,take her out at dinner,getting closer during conversation,then starts to hit seriosly giving her a kiss and look at her reaction.That was all mind gaming with lana...She was totally devastated and confused after 5 years of love with clark ended with "my feelings are changed"wich in lana's mind means i never truly loved u and thats why i didnt trust u,and lex got advantage of that to manipulate her making her believe he was trust worthy and that he trust her,and that clark fooled her the whole time,making her feel stupidTheir relationship was basically the one between adept and leader,after lex started to have total controll of her life,who she sees what she does,she was completely brainwashed...it wasnt love,was devotion and addiction.Was all a big manipulation,and if u dont know when someone tries to warn u from ur leader,u kinda turn on that person cause the particularity of that connection is a complete devotion and a blind faith,thats the ability of lex and he does that with kara too,in season 7.And im speaking really psychologically.

Lana tho had a lot of doubt about her relationship with lex,cause she felt it was too fast and she never wanted to get at that point but lex forced and dragged her,everytime she had some doubts he blamed her or made her feel guilty cause she was treating him bad due her isssues she had with clark,and kept manipulating lana like that till the proposal prying on the fact he trusted her and he was honest,using the relationship with clark to make her feel stupid.When lex proposed she realized she was caged with lex for the pregnancy,and that was the only reason she was marrying lex,if wasnt for that pregnancy even if clark wouldnt step back,i doubt she would accept lex proposal,she admits that.Sadly when u get manipulated u dont notice it,and manipulator ability is to take control of ur life and get a total trust and create addiction,alienating u from ur friend and family and shaping ur mind to them will....Like all the test lex created to try lana loyalty,to make her start acting like a luthor,u know threat,blakmails ecc.ecc. The pregnancy is the proof that made realize lana the dynamic of her relationship with lex.She was blinded by his manipulation,thats all.She even says to chloe that could be never be something with lex,but he ruthless dragged into a relationship she didnt even wanted.So why blame her for being with lex,and none blame lex for what he did to lana?

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I don't deny that Lana and Clark had real feelings or that they wanted to be together, but I do question for one if it was ever a real possibility since they couldn't seem to ever be honest with each other.

But more than that, what I saw seemed to say that anytime they were truly honest with themselves, they realized they would never work out because they simply wanted and needed different things.  I think them wanting to be together was an idealized fantasy in itself.  

First Clark tried to hide who he was and then Lana was hiding who she really was and later literally tried to change who she was so they could be together.   

There an ep,reckoning that show us that there was a real possibility of them getting even married,thats the proof their love and relationship with honesty would totally work.Point is that lex screwed up that time,and reality is that when they get back together in season 7 lana was a total different person,was deviated,was traumatized and had this dark side in her that lex managed to take out.Clark was different too,had a difficult year with phantom and all that he got to be trough,and he kinda was more cold too.They wanted to be together but wasnt idealizing,they simply felt the need to be together cause they still loved eachother,they still knew they were meant to be together,but had to solve the problem from the past.Lana didnt try to change who she was,she was more and likely trying to get her good side back,she was trying to leave her past with lex and her dark side behind her back.That was her change,when she got darker,now she decided to be again the honest and good person she was,and she did that during the time she was training in season 8.

 

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Chloe didn't know there was a fake Clark either, but she knew something was wrong from his behavior and she knew what town they lived in and that meant something was up.  Lana didn't deny that Clark was different, but she liked the changes so much that she was willing to live in denial that there was something wrong and blame Chloe for having issues over how Clark had changed rather than face the truth.  Lana thought the changes that focused on their relationship to the exclusion of the needs of the world made sense for Clark.  But all it proved to me was that Lana wanted something different than Clark.  She preferred the idealized version come to life.  

Chloe knew about bizarro tho,and she realized that just when he clearly acted weird...then again for a month she was as blind as lana....Lana in that moment surely wanted clark to be more sympathethic and lovely,it doesnt need a whole day to appreciate someone a nice phrase is enough(like when bizzarro said what could i do without you,she was flattered).She needed support cause afterall she still wasnt totally over the lex period,and clark just didnt realize how traumatized actually she was.Bizarro tho being more lovely gained her trust,giving her what she wanted IN THAT MOMENT of her life,a diffucult one.

 

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I know we saw was looked like Clark and Lana finally getting their HEA, but I believe that even if the bio suit that Lana stole hadn't absorbed Kryptonite, I believe they would have found they wanted different things.  

For one, Lana didn't actually want to be out their saving people.  I say that since she never did anything with it for the rest of the series.  ( I don't count the comic since that was just one writer basically doing pictorial fanfiction, lol. ) According to the show, Lana was never involved even when the world was in danger.  The show could have easily mentioned her doing something on the otherside of the world without needing KK to show up.  It was a choice IMO that Lana was just out there living her life in as normal a way as possible.  That's what she really wanted.  Not for all the sacrifices the life of a hero required. 

OH my lol,u clearly dont want to see the truth my friend,cause u distorte too much the reality of the show.How,how...with wich kind psychic power could u tell that they were gonna realize they wanted different things?Requiem was made on the porpose of showing us that their were finally together and perfect for eachother they were grown up adults,their life was set up,they loved each other and they both wanted to be superhero and make the world a better place.Clark added the romanticism to the relationship,and lana wasnt a whiny girl anymore,she knew clark loved her and she was confident with her self.

Lol again,besides the fact we know later with s11 she was in africa,since her last appearance showed us that she was gonna do the superhero,we suppose that thats what she do even if they dont mention it.But if you WANT to think that she lazely stay on the sofa and superspeed just to fill the popcorn bowl,ur free to do it,but ur distorting what the show showed us.Plus she sacrified so much that only one that sacrified most maybe is clark,but they could even be equal.

On 5/12/2016 at 9:47 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana could have stayed nearby after she turned into walking Kryptonite, but she found it too hard that way it was.  She wanted all or nothing.  The reality that she could have at that time with Clark was not enough for her, not even enough for her to bide her time in hopes of some kind of solution.  

And when Lana left, Clark moved on.  Now, there could possibly be a case for saying that he was still messed up over Lana, thus explaining his weird switch to Lois out of nowhere and a relationship with her that seemed even more full of secrets with the added bonuses of being more emotionally disconnected from her and living life with more lines between what he was and wasn't willing to share with her even after she knew everything about him.  It was no longer about his secret, just what was his business and what was hers and he liked it like that (which is directly opposite of what he really wanted, a partner in all parts of life like his parents had been).  But Lois is a totally different and depressing subject.    

Yeah she found it hard,cause they basically remains in a relationship but they couldnt even touch or live together.She realized that if she stayed that only would have stacked eachother without being able to go on with their life.Doc growl said process was irreversible.That means there is no way to fix it back.So she decide to do her last sacrifice for clark,so he could move on with his life.If she stayed,he would never get over lana cause as long as they see each other,their love will make em blind to other people and  clark would never be able to be with lois.When she's gone,even tho they will always love each other,clark can somehow put in background that feeling and focus on other relationship.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[Sirious Dude]

10 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

That's a pretty confusing quote since you were quoting someone both quoting and referring to a couple things and offering their opinion and commentary. It's someone's interpretation and speculation, not really fact.  Only the part I put in bold was an actual quote.  

Yes, the creators of the show saw Lana and Clark as star crossed lovers and they've also commented elsewhere that they were telling a tragedy in Lana and Clark.  I don't disagree.  I do disagree that Clark and Lana were ever a When Harry Met Sally kind of couple since they never had that dynamic where the first couple times they met they didn't like each other followed by being super best friends and only then of falling in love.  Clark was always hung up on Lana.  I was watching a show where he just needed to grow out of it.

The remark attributed to Deknight, a producer and writer that the original intentions were that Lana would be the romantic interest for the whole show run needs to be taken in context.  Originally the entire show was planned only to go five seasons.  That would have put them in their first year of college.  But even that plan went out the window because even when they moved Smallville to a new night and the show runners were afraid they were going to be cancelled, the story they chose to tell that season was of Clana breaking up and Chlark getting super close.  So initial intentions didn't last.  

I also disagree that that Lois was intended to be a rebound relationship.  Had the show runners done as initially planned, Clark meeting Lois would have been years away from the end of the show.  There's no reason to think that Clark wouldn't have been in the right place to have genuine feelings for Lois in the initial plan.  That said, what actually happened on screen certainly jibes with Clark being with Lois cause he was desperate and Lois was there.  I just disagree that the show runners were intending for that to be the case.  The reality was new show runners got put in charge and they basically said screw continuity, lets skip to the part where Lois and Clark are together.    

I honestly past copied that from another blog,but yeah i think thats the part the creator actually said.But the other still are from "writers mouth".Clana is definely star-crossed,and i dont know the story of herry met sally so i cant really say something about that.Indeed clark and lana are more the kind of love at first sight.

I thought too that they meant probably for e less number of season,but thing is that in the end their relationship lasted 8 years,and chlark never had really a possibility with lana around.Same for clois,and wheter they wanted or not,she definely is a second choice,more than a rebound.But anyways the great love,is between lana and clark,the dynamic is that as well,superman in the comic fall in love with lois since the first time he lay his eyes on her.This kind of love in SV clark has only with lana,even tho the writers had many chances to create the perfect falling in love plot with lois.So i think that maybe in the end they did wanted lois to be a second choice.

[BkWurm1]

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Then after the prom,jason and lana have a fight cause she admits she had second thought and he even asks how much time she was thinking bout that cause feeling doesnt change in one night.Jason kinda attacks lana and accused her of how much he did protect her,and they eventually break up.

She didnt pine for clark,Is no memory clark that dont knowing of jason asks lana out saying this time will be different and she believes that,even cause after getting his memory back and forgetting that day, clark used the same words and they start to slowly rebuild a relationship.Lana was no longer with 

 

Lana and Jason fought and eventually broke up after the Prom.  The thing is, Lana had already emotionally broke up with Jason before the prom where she soooo clearly was pining for Clark.  It's one of her most obvious positioning of the back up boyfriend before she deals with the current one and it really didn't impress me.  Both she and Clark talked about in that episode how they'd built up fantasies about how their prom would be and yeah, I think they both idealized that night.  I really didn't like the attitude of either of them in that episode.  

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Now i dont want to offend,but u are distorting the truth ."Never willing to bring lana into his real life?"Lana is THE ONLY person that he really was willing to tell his secret(maybe just lois after) and he actually do in reckoning,other people just discovered it.Always in reckoning we can see that it was clark paranoia that she wouldnt accept him and we can see they clearly are happy,and chloe says it as well "u know what she answer just have to keep her away from lex."He decide to not tell her cause he saw that within a day she was dead cause of that secret.He was telling her the truth even to save her from lex,but she says u dont owe me anything and decide by her self to marry lex to protect clark.This are facts that we can see in the series,you cant deny that.

I guess it's a matter of interpretation.  You are right that he did tell Lana in Reckoning since he choice was either tell her or lose her, but within a day he deeply regretted telling her and from her actions determined she could handle his world.  They strung along their relationship a bit longer and then finally broke up.  I guess I don't consider his actions that of a man that felt she belonged in his real life.  You see it as Clark being overly paranoid, I see it as Clark waking up to the truth and really the truth isn't what Lana could or couldn't handle, but that Clark had no faith in her being able to do it and that's as bad as Lana not being able to do it.

 About Lois, Clark told Lois twice.  Once when he was coming out to the WORLD to get ahead of some blackmail, that was just a means to an end and nothing to do personally with Lois.  The other time he told her it was only after he had an absolute guarantee of how it all worked out so I find that the weakest of all reveals.  He was content to walk away from that relationship until Future Brainiac told him it was a sure thing.  How not romantic.  

 

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,chloe at the start warned her but then she did even tell her u cant look at people swimming u must swim too or something like that,but point is she kinda pushed lana in that relationship

She pushed her to make a choice.  Nothing more.  Lana chose wrong and Chloe was done telling her what to do, probably since Lana refused to listen.  After how long and loud Chloe preached about how Lex was terrible and couldn't be trusted, Lana couldn't possibly think Chloe was pro Lex.  No one forced Lana.  

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.After chloe warn lana and threat lex,lex starts to keep lana way from her friends,he started to take control of her life.So it wasnt she didnt trust her firend,but as chloe made her notice,maybe she was forced to leave her friend.Lana simply didnt realized that cause at that time she was a puppet in lex hands,exaclty as she claimed not to be with clark.Thats manipulation dude,u cant really do anything about that,clark fell in lex tricks too

Not sure of the timeline you are thinking of but I don't see that Lex cut Lana from her friends so much as Lana chose Lex over her friends and yeah, that isolated her but it was her choice.  Chloe was there for her in any way she could be, and during her engagement, Lana had free access to Chloe, even staying with her for days, so Lex wasn't trying too hard to keep Lana away from people that didn't support him.  

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Am i the only one that noticed that lana was dragged by lex in that relationship? During whole season 5 lex pry on the doubt that lana has about clark and he make her have more doubt,in the meanwhile he manipulated her to trust him saying such thing like "clark will never trust u,but i do" "u can trust me" "i know clark needs u,but when u need someone im here"...lex basically shits clark a lot and he was her confidant so basically she told him all the problem with clark,he abused that position to gain information on what lana wanted and when johnny kent dies,lex even keep hitting on lana.

Again, we are talking perception.  Yes, Lex told her those things, but not only did Lex believe he was telling the truth, Lana agreed with him.  That's not in my opinion dragging a person into a relationship.  She's the one that kept turning to Lex because he was giving her what she wanted and not Clark.  

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Then lex start to pull lana away from clark,and he managed to definely break them up with that hypno girl.That even devasted lana mind status and made her extremly vulnerable,so lex is able to instill a connection between them.He slowly starts to break all the taboos of a friendhsip,take her out at dinner,getting closer during conversation,then starts to hit seriosly giving her a kiss and look at her reaction.That was all mind gaming with lana...She was totally devastated and confused after 5 years of love with clark ended with "my feelings are changed"wich in lana's mind means i never truly loved u and thats why i didnt trust u,and lex got advantage of that to manipulate her making her believe he was trust worthy and that he trust her,and that clark fooled her the whole time,making her feel stupidTheir relationship was basically the one between adept and leader,after lex started to have total controll of her life,who she sees what she does,she was completely brainwashed...it wasnt love,was devotion and addiction.Was all a big manipulation,and if u dont know when someone tries to warn u from ur leader,u kinda turn on that person cause the particularity of that connection is a complete devotion and a blind faith,thats the ability of lex and he does that with kara too,in season 7.And im speaking really psychologically.

Lana tho had a lot of doubt about her relationship with lex,cause she felt it was too fast and she never wanted to get at that point but lex forced and dragged her,everytime she had some doubts he blamed her or made her feel guilty cause she was treating him bad due her isssues she had with clark,and kept manipulating lana like that till the proposal prying on the fact he trusted her and he was honest,using the relationship with clark to make her feel stupid.When lex proposed she realized she was caged with lex for the pregnancy,and that was the only reason she was marrying lex,if wasnt for that pregnancy even if clark wouldnt step back,i doubt she would accept lex proposal,she admits that.Sadly when u get manipulated u dont notice it,and manipulator ability is to take control of ur life and get a total trust and create addiction,alienating u from ur friend and family and shaping ur mind to them will....Like all the test lex created to try lana loyalty,to make her start acting like a luthor,u know threat,blakmails ecc.ecc. The pregnancy is the proof that made realize lana the dynamic of her relationship with lex.She was blinded by his manipulation,thats all.She even says to chloe that could be never be something with lex,but he ruthless dragged into a relationship she didnt even wanted.So why blame her for being with lex,and none blame lex for what he did to lana?

 

Did Lex scheme and do shady stuff like try to break up Lana and Clark? Absolutely but you have to remember that at that point Lana and Clark were so messed up as a couple that I thought they'd broken up like three times before they actually apparently broke up!  He did not break up a healthy relationship.  They were over the moment Clark decided Lana couldn't handle his life.  Lex hired hypno girl but Clark is the one that decided to end things.

Did Lex try and get Lana to love him?  Yeah, he did.  I'm not defending his actions with Hypno girl or the fake baby but I don't see where Lex did anything wrong in making his move on trying to date Lana.  He was in love with her and wanted her to love him.  He wanted the fantasy life he saw in that dream world.  But he didn't want the unhappy ending so yeah, he tried to control and manipulate. 

Funny thing is, from how their relationship built and how willing Lex actually had been in being open with Lana about his shadier stuff and how important that kind of trust and openness was with Lana, I think if Lex had been patient, Lana would have been his anyway.  But he wanted guarantees and he wanted it now and so yeah, he is the reason it all fell apart, but Lana was clear to Chloe that she wasn't marrying Lex just because of the baby.  She wanted Lex and the life he offered.  The baby just rushed everything.  

I do blame Lex for what he did, but I feel like you don't blame Lana at all.  

18 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

There an ep,reckoning that show us that there was a real possibility of them getting even married,thats the proof their love and relationship with honesty would totally work.Point is that lex screwed up that time

And I saw it as proof they wouldn't work and that LANA screwed it up.  Lex did what he did, but the problem was always what Lana did and how she reacted.  Lex was himself with everyone.  And everyone else could handle Clark's secret around Lex.  Lana couldn't at the time.  

 

18 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

reality is that when they get back together in season 7 lana was a total different person,was deviated,was traumatized and had this dark side in her that lex managed to take out

And for me, what Lex brought out in Lana was just what I'd always seen inside of her, it was just no longer layered behind a mask of "perfect" and "nice".  I agree that Lana was traumatized, but her choices and actions seemed perfectly in line with who I saw on the show from the first season.  Her time with Lex just shined a light on those aspects of her personality.  

 

18 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

That was her change,when she got darker,now she decided to be again the honest and good person she was,and she did that during the time she was training in season 8.

Again we disagree.  Season 8 was Lana lying and manipulating people to get what she wanted while keeping all her friends and family in the darkk about what she was doing.  And then when her plan failed, she ran and cut them all out of her life again.  

 

18 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Chloe knew about bizarro tho,

Lana wasn't in the dark about CLark's secret.  Chloe shared what she knew and Lana rejected it all.  I don't see where Chloe had any special insider info except for IMO actually knowing Clark better than Lana.  

 

18 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

OH my lol,u clearly dont want to see the truth my friend,cause u distorte too much the reality of the show.How,how...with wich kind psychic power could u tell that they were gonna realize they wanted different things?Requiem was made on the porpose of showing us that their were finally together and perfect for eachother they were grown up adults,their life was set up,they loved each other and they both wanted to be superhero and make the world a better place.Clark added the romanticism to the relationship,and lana wasnt a whiny girl anymore,she knew clark loved her and she was confident with her self.

You said it yourself: a person isn't who they were in their last conversation, they are who they have been through the whole relationship.  And Lana and Clark through their whole relationship were never satisfied by the other.  

In season seven when Lana finally set aside her Lex revenge, she then turned to Bizarro.  Clark on the other hand was leaning emotionally on Chloe rather than Lana. They were together but the fractures were clear and had she not been attacked and put in a coma, I'm sure they would have just broken up.  And proof of that to me is that Lana saw no reason to return to their life as it was after she was briefly kidnapped.  She knew that version of them was doomed.

But so was the version she became because that version of her wasn't honest.  She let Clark believe a lie for a year while she was finding herself.  She claimed she wanted to fight crime but not only had we seen no pattern of that in her past, once being with Clark was off the table, she never did anything with the suit.  Plus, even if Lana was this new remade, kick ass woman, that woman was a stranger to Clark.  

And all of that is why I'm sure it wouldn't have lasted.  

19 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Lol again,besides the fact we know later with s11 she was in africa,since her last appearance showed us that she was gonna do the superhero,we suppose that thats what she do even if they dont mention it.But if you WANT to think that she lazely stay on the sofa and superspeed just to fill the popcorn bowl,ur free to do it,but ur distorting what the show showed us.Plus she sacrified so much that only one that sacrified most maybe is clark,but they could even be equal.

Again, the tie in comic was one guy's take on the show after it was done.   It never happened on the show so I don't give it any more weight than any other of the fan fictions created by non show runners.  That several years later they tried to redeem Lana's storyline has nothing to do with what the show actually chose to portray or not portray.  

 

19 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

.Doc growl said process was irreversible.That means there is no way to fix it back.So she decide to do her last sacrifice for clark,so he could move on with his life.If she stayed,he would never get over lana cause as long as they see each other,their love will make em blind to other people and  clark would never be able to be with lois.When she's gone,even tho they will always love each other,clark can somehow put in background that feeling and focus on other relationship.

I do think that they gave up rather quickly and didn't even try to look for other solutions.  They lived in a world with magic but they just took no for an answer?  I don't disagree that Clark wouldn't have been able to move on for a long time had Lana not left, though I tend to see him not moving on more out of guilt than anything.  And really, did Lana do anyone any favors if her leaving meant Clark moving on with that Lois?  Yikes.  

[Sirious Dude]

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I see Lana needing more from Clark and Clark not giving it as more than him taking her for granted.  They couldn't seem to create a dynamic where they could get from each other what they wanted and needed.  Biz Clark was able to give Lana the attention she needed because he neglected everyone else in his life.  He wasn't around for anyone else but Lana.  Leaving Smallville was a way for him to just cut any of those other parts of Clark's life away for good.  And unless Lana was an idiot, she had to realize the implications and yet she was ok with it.  Yes she was blinded by being in live and being happy but that's my point, Clark can't make her happy with his real life.  

 

Thats the point,lana didnt really wanted to leave smallvile,she was gonna just cause bizzarro wanted,but clark didnt need to sacrifice his hero life to stay with lana,he siriously needed just to appreciate her most,say some sweet things to her....Lana was blinded by the love and attention that bizzaro payed to her and in that difficult moment she wanted to belive that maybe clark wanted just to fix it up,but clark could make her happy as well as we can see in season 5 and 8 when shes not messed up(rememebr season 7 lana still need to recovery)She just recovery for real when after the dear john video,she decide to not come back to smallville and to start training so she could defend herself without clark,and not change as u said.She wanted to fully mind recovery and gain good physical condition.

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Lana on the show came across to me as fake.  That her niceness was just a surface layer.  The show again and again reinforced my impression.  I actually liked her more when in season seven she and the show stopped pretending she was good or nice.

  

U sure its not that u want to see it like that?In season 7 she wasnt good and nice cause she actually wasnt that girl anymore,after 7 years of lies manipulation and suffernce she grew up like that,but in the start she was nice and good,the retro aspect that u want to see is just in ur mind,cause if the writers wanted her  to really be like that,it would have been more notable.The scarecrow fact,she did forgive whitney cause he apolagies as that was just a prank,but she did get angry at him,she says sorry to clark and she change the way she looks whitney in her mind,thats a point against whitney and make her closer to clark.The fact she stays with whitney doesnt mean she still thinks the same of him.

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It didn't help that she seemed to use and discard people when they weren't useful...until they were again, but in the meantime, she would act like she didn't even know them.  Like her aunt or Whitney and Clark a few times and Chloe as well.  Some talk about how Chloe had stronger feeling for Clark than Clark did for her but it's absolutely the case between Chloe and Lana.  Chloe was a very good friend to Lana but I can't say the opposite.

In the early years, my issue with Lana was a combination of things, her behavior and attitude influenced me a great deal but Clark's mistreatment of the people around him in favor of Lana really was a huge negative for me as well as the show's habit of trying to treat her as perfect when she was anything but.  Do you know how many times people apologized to her after she did something wrong?

 

WUT discard people?I dont know what are u siriously talking about....I totally dont see it and i think that clark do it the most,he goes to lex most of the time for his help,and then treat him bad,but clark do this with chloe as well.Maybe its a thing that everyone does in smallville.About chloe and lana....isnt that chloe simply doesnt need lana help?I dont think that lana actually negated chloe any favor or something,its more that chloe didnt ask any.Plus before she get over clark,chloe wasnt that good friend neither for lana and clark.

I say again that behaviour and attitude of lana is what made me love the character,and if clark mistreat people well how could that be lana fault?She even blame herself for that and she say im not perfect and everything,the show want to make her perfect?Why then they gave her so many personal issues...And i remeber her apolagiazing to people after she do wrong stuff...always.I remeber lana putting other people over her even when her own life is in danger...i just think u dont like the stereotype of that kind of girl lana is,and thats it.

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Chloe while she was under the influence of the truth power was not herself.  Clark even said that to her.  Even so, she was deeply remorseful.  Before that when she'd dug into, the first time was just because of a school project.  Then Clark asked her to stop but she didn't, but she wasn't digging to to root out his secrets but to help him get answers.  She totally messed up in deciding to get answers when he didn't want them, but she was 14 and thought she was doing him a favor.  Her intentions were good.  Still, she came to understand her mistake and apologized and stopped digging.

 

Maybe she wasnt her self,but when the school project about roots ended,chloe kept digging not to help him,but cause she was curious and intrigued by the mistery of clark kent,she even says that.Chloe was the only one that wanted any answer,if seriosly she did that for clark she would have stopped after he asked her to.

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In season four Chloe has a conversation with Clark where she chooses their friendship over figuring out his secret.  She knew there was one and she couldn't help noticing the constant odd things that happened with Clark - it was stuff that was happening to her too, but she agreed to not look into it.  When she later is shown his secret, she immediately even stops her public research into the wall of weird stuff.  

Lana never reached the point of letting Clark keep his secret.  She felt she deserved to know and maybe she did, but Chloe stopped digging even when the truth was right there in front of her.  Lana was out of high school and about to get married when she stole Clark's secret.  There is a marked contrast IMO.

When chloe find out clark secret she shut wall of weird down,but during the season we can see its still there tho.I dont remeber this conversation u talkin about,but i can remeber that chloe even tho stopped searching,tries a lot to get it directly from clark during season 4,keep making allussion double sense and stuff.Many times he felt emberassed and not normal...

Lana totally reached that level,and in the same ep she did stop clark from telling his secret twice.She didnt felt she deserves to know,indeed before doing the set up she already feels guilty and she is in contrast with her value,and asks aunt nell if bending the rule for once was that bad.She didnt did it that easly and without thinking,we can see she was truly fought by what to do.In lana timeline she wakes up after dreaming of clark saving her in the tornado,something that has been in her mind for 5 years.What she felt is that clark still loved her,and that he really just wanted to protect her as he always claimed,and since in the last period she started to see lex real face she realize who was lying and who not,and how that could change her life,would be the proof clark still loves her...cause she never closed the clark "door".What really lana "stole" is a confession of clarks love for her,and that all she really care about.She wanted to know why if he didnt love and trust her(as it appeared from her pov,and as lex convinced her to believe)he was still watching over her,and kept rescue her all the time.

  

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Fun?  Sure except for the part where he could turn into a unstoppable killling machine at anytime if she didn't keep him happy.  Chloe was as much a prisoner as Lana, more so since she had to leave her whole life behind while Lana was able to still see her friends and family.  

And Clark didn't defeat Doomsday, he managed to bury Doomsday after he was split (weakened) from Davis.  

More enjoyable,chloe didnt suffered the depression that losing a baby could bring,didnt get all that pain and the distress.She even liked davis in the first place.He didnt turn into doomsady when he was with her,wasnt that the purpose to stay with him?Maybe lana was able to see friend but she still has to live with lex luthor.

So he did defeat him in the end,the threat was gone.And actually split the human part from the kryptonian part makes doomsday more dangerous,not more weak.

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Lana deliberately provoked Lex into hitting her.  She set him up.  He shouldn't have hit her or lost control, but she knew what she was doing and got what she wanted so she COULD frame him and I really don't think Lana had any plan in mind  to keep from her friends when she chose to marry Lex.  There's no way she knew about the clones at that time.  And no, I don't think Lana had any intentions of coming back.  She'd faked her death and framed Lex.  She would have been a wanted woman without Lex clearing things up.  

And the thing is, Lex had made her think she was pregnant and that was a huge violation but did he deserve to think his wife who he loved was dead and to go for jail for something he had not done?  Lex was not the one that forced Lana into marriage and he wasn't the one forcing her to stay. Lionel was doing that but Lana took her revenge against both.  

Lex deserved to be dumped for being so cruel as to faking the baby- even if his motives weren't all that awful - but Lex was deceived going into the marriage as well.  He thought - for the second time - that the woman marrying him loved him and wanted to marry him.  He was very wrong.  And for that, Lana had planned on ruining the rest of his life and branding him a murderer.   

 

OH MY LOL,DUDE  I think this is a forced point of view.She did wanted to frame lex for her murder,but she didnt set up their conversation.That just came out spontaneously.How do u set up a conversation? lol He would have been framed anyways even if he didnt hit her.She didnt caused lex to hit her,he did that for jealousy cause when he says clark is the biggest liar,she answer back that he will never be as much important as clark.PLease tell me how could that even be thinked as a set up?She told him the truth.

Dont be the "lawyer of the devil",as we use to say in italy.Lex deserved anything bad could have happened to him and even more.He didnt really love lana,he was obsessed with her and the idea of her,for god sake he was gonna replace her with an alien DNA powered clone.Why do u think he cloned her?Lex is a sociopath,he's not able to love and to have healty relationship,he always try to manipulate and to controll people,thats why he is alone and all his relationships and friendships failed.And he did actually forced her to marry him,maybe not in the way lionel did,but fake a pregnancy is forcing too.The doctor says that to lana as well,he thought lana used "hormones to force a billionare to marriage".So lex did indeed forced lana into marriage.When clark goes to talk to lana after reading the daily planet about the proposal,lex negate clark to see lana and said to him i would be angry if i didnt knew that lana will say yes.He gets 2 birds with one stone,gets clark to step back and convince lana to marry him.Lex knew that in the eventuality this or anything like this situation would have happened,lana would have choose clark over lex within 1 sec if wasnt for the baby.

"Even if his reasons werent awfull"?U want to exculpate lex for faking a pregnancy in the name of love?He wasnt decevied and its all his fault if he thought lana loved him,he was too occupied to keep her by his side to notice she was deeply un happy.Lana wanted to frame him for murder but not just for revenge,for justice cause HE IS A DAMN MURDERER,he murdered a man even right before the wedding.He murdered and ruined so many life,he deserves to go to jail.He is the villain,remember? 

  And even if lana didnt want to come back to smallville,that means she was sacrificing.She sacrifice her life and love to assure a dangerous psycopath to jail.

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See that's my thing, I've had problems with Lana from the start and her behavior only got more manipulative and secretive.  She was never honest with Clark.  Even right through getting the super suit.  All lies.  All secrets.  All Lana.

Chloe is not perfect but she's had Clark's back at the sacrifice to her own life from basically season three on.  As late as the end of nine, she's erased herself from history because Fate said it was the only way she could save Clark and the others.  Chloe kept secrets, but they served the greater good.  Lana's seemed to serve herself before all else.  

I think that everyone sees what he wants to see,lana is objectively the less manipulative character,chloe and lois are far more manipulative ,since the beginning.Than chloe gets better after season 5,lois gets worste going on with the seasons,and lana start to being manipulative and secretive after the whole lex thing,but then going on with season 7 and 8 she gets better again.I honestly never seen lana put herself before others,she risk her life many times to protect clark even before knowing his secret(6x14/6x15) and she goes against 2 kryptonians in season 5,trying to save the day,and against zod in s6.She proven to have the hero spirit more than once,even if that put her own life in danger,many times she rather make other people being rescued before her.And she sacrifice her love for clark to save metropolis,but hey lana serves herself before others...

She was honest with clark,and then starts to not being cause he's not with her as well,the prometeus thing,as she said she didnt told clark cause he knew he would have stopped her,and she didnt want lex to suit up with that.She sees an opportunity,destroying that suit and waste it all,or put the suit to the will of the good.She decided that even if something was created by lex luthor it can be used to make the world a better place.And in the meanwhile give lana the opportunity to be on the same physical level of clark(to point physical,cause instead of lois lana dont think clark as superior god among the human,but she admits that anyways he's on another physical level),being so able to share a superhero life together,and make some bed time heartquakes. lol

Requeim is the ultimate proof of how their relationship would be amazing and could be internally possible,and extremly happy ,but for some external reason made impossible.Id like to point that lex is the main reason clark and lana break up since season 5.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[BkWurm1]

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He didnt really love lana,he was obsessed with her and the idea of her,for god sake he was gonna replace her with an alien DNA powered clone.Why do u think he cloned her?

There's no evidence he was going to replace her with an clone.  I think he cloned her so she wouldn't die in child birth. The clone could incubate the child with no risk to Lana.  

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He is the villain,remember? 

Sure but Lana knew that before she got cozy with him.  She was fine with what he did as long as he treated her right (just like Whitney), it was only when his same twisted habits happened to her, did she suddenly agree that Lex was terrible. 

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i just think u dont like the stereotype of that kind of girl lana is,and thats it.

What do you think that is?  What stereotype do you see applied to Lana?  

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She proven to have the hero spirit more than once,even if that put her own life in danger,many times she rather make other people being rescued before her.And she sacrifice her love for clark to save metropolis,but hey lana serves herself before others.

Every character on the show has stepped in and saved the day, including Lex.  She's put her life at danger when things happen right in front of her, but her regular life has never been about choosing that life.  Even Isis was just a front to hide what she was doing to get Lex.  The super suit was about getting Clark.  And she would have lost Clark anyway if she'd refused to save the city because she wanted to be with him.  

She's not as calculated about her choices as I perhaps make it sound, but the results are the same. She doesn't help the other characters on the show unless it's ultimately about her happiness.  Sure, part of the problem is the writing, but she is the writing.   

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Id like to point that lex is the main reason clark and lana break up since season 5

.I disagree that Lex was why Clark broke up with her in season 5, as I explained upthread.  Season six they weren't together.  Season seven they almost broke up because of Lana and Bizarro and then at first we were told she was letting Clark go because she'd hold him back and later that was retconned to being briefly kidnapped but I don't recall who kidnapped her.  I do recall that she could have gone back to Clark anytime she'd wanted but she instead stayed away and plotted to snatch up the super suit and while I don't recall if Lex planned for her to steal it or if it was just a happy accident he took advantage of, his revenge only worked because Lana couldn't be happy with how she and Clark really were together.  Reality wasn't good enough.  

Edited December 7, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Sirious Dude]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

There's no evidence he was going to replace her with an clone.  I think he cloned her so she wouldn't die in child birth. The clone could incubate the child with no risk to Lana.

Yeah theres a scene he look at the clone just after he claimed his army was gonna live or something like that,point is he was trying to create an army and lana clone was part of it.

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Sure but Lana knew that before she got cozy with him.  She was fine with what he did as long as he treated her right (just like Whitney), it was only when his same twisted habits happened to her, did she suddenly agree that Lex was terrible. 

No she didnt,she didnt know lex was bad cause he convinced her he was good and honest,viewers see all the face of lex,lana sees just the one lex really shows her.Indeed she starts having serious doubt about lex when she starts to suspect he is behind the meteor freak stuff in the ep right before the wedding 6x15,when lex lie to her even tho she  see him and that doctor and start to realize all the time he lied in the same way and understand he is not the man she thought...how many time we see her defending lex?About 33.1,his honesty,that he is changed...Lana was fooled and i have to admit she has been naive.A lot.But since lex stepped in her personal life in a very bad moment pretending to be the honest hero,the man she dreamed about,we can actually understand why she acted like that...this is psychology.

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

What do you think that is?  What stereotype do you see applied to Lana?  

I dont know,like the perfect girl smart,cute and that all the guys go after her,but that is not happy cause of her personal problem like she's orphan and for that has personal issues like lack of love,trust issues and that influence her life negatively(like tina grer said she has the perfect life but doesnt deserve it),but to viewers eyes she appears like shallow and ungratefull for what she has.I read a lot call her "pink princess" or something like that i dont rember exactly,but pretty much the classic "perfect girl".Even tho she says many time she is not perfect as people or clark picture her,and she dont want to be pictured like that.

 

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Every character on the show has stepped in and saved the day, including Lex.  She's put her life at danger when things happen right in front of her, but her regular life has never been about choosing that life.  Even Isis was just a front to hide what she was doing to get Lex.  The super suit was about getting Clark.  And she would have lost Clark anyway if she'd refused to save the city because she wanted to be with him.  

She's not as calculated about her choices as I perhaps make it sound, but the results are the same. She doesn't help the other characters on the show unless it's ultimately about her happiness.  Sure, part of the problem is the writing, but she is the writing.   

Of course she does that just when things happen in front of her,its pretty hard put ur life in danger when ur not on the scene,thing is that when she is on the scene doesnt esitate to risk her life to save other.Its just in season 8 that she decide to have that life,she sees clark and what she loves in him and she understand that saving life is what she wants to do too.

The super suit was no about getting clark,she didnt want the power for her personal reasons,dont u think if was really like that she would have acted differently?She wouldnt save life,as she wouldnt defuse the bomb as well.The fact that she was now on the same physical level with clark was just a side effect.Wasnt her purpose,she has the strenght in her heart and her soul,thats what clark loved of her.She was a hero even before getting superpowers,and i think clark thought of her as equal and she thought of clark equal too.beyond the physical level.

For the isis,yeah she had the double purpose to spy on lex,but that doesnt mean isis foundation was just to cover that purpose.The fact there is a 2nd purpose doesnt mean the first is a fake one.The foundation kept on running even after she shuts down lex spying project,cause she really wanted to help the people whom lex ruined the life.

I deeply disagree,she doesnt act just for her happiness.And its not about writing...think about lex,he really just do what is best for him and we totally see that,but can u really say the same of lana? I have seen her put even other people happiness over hers,as helping other people as well.

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

.I disagree that Lex was why Clark broke up with her in season 5, as I explained upthread.  Season six they weren't together.  Season seven they almost broke up because of Lana and Bizarro and then at first we were told she was letting Clark go because she'd hold him back and later that was retconned to being briefly kidnapped but I don't recall who kidnapped her.  I do recall that she could have gone back to Clark anytime she'd wanted but she instead stayed away and plotted to snatch up the super suit and while I don't recall if Lex planned for her to steal it or if it was just a happy accident he took advantage of, his revenge only worked because Lana couldn't be happy with how she and Clark really were together.  Reality wasn't good enough.  

Ok i missed that post,i'll answer there then.

Yeah but eventually after bizarro they did not broke up.In the finale lex did successfully break them up for the second time,if he didnt kidnapped her,she wouldnt leave.After the kidnapp she decide that besides the fact that lex would always come after her,putting in danger even clark since lex knew his secret nnow,she take one more time the difficult decision to sacrifice her love for clark for a greater purpose.Indeed after lana left clark decided to leave the farm and go to the daily planet.She could go back anytime she wanted,but she thought that she was holding clark back,and that thought was confirmed after she knew clark started to work at the daily planet and to save people as the red blu blur.She realized that leaving was the best thing she done for clark and his future,and didnt want to risk to ruin it.

She didnt plan to take the suit for clark,she even said she wasnt coming back to smallville.But oliver convinced her to go the chloe wedding and once there leaving again was hard.They started to see each other again before putting the suit on and she was good and happy with that,but since she already planned to take it eventually went like we know.But the new relationship with clark just happended and before the suit thing,wasnt in program for lana...wasnt i'll get the suit to be with clark.Indeed she ask to the legion what will be of she and clark,and there was many hint that suggested that she wasnt plan to get back with clark even cause she wasnt gonna stay.Once she had the suit,and she and clark already get back together,they kept living together and now on they had even powers.She asks clark to go patrol metropolis,when he wanted to just chill with her. 

Lol that would be a really crazy plan,i dont think lex wanted lana to stole the suit,it would be point less.The suit was projected as a weapon against clark for lex to wear it,and once lana took it lex was just able to take advantage of the situation anyways.I think that 

2 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lana couldn't be happy with how she and Clark really were together.  Reality wasn't good enough.  

I have to disagree again my friend,she has been already happy  with clark,no need of suit or super power.In power we can see that she want the suit and the powers to be able to do some real good in the world,to be a hero with all the responsabilities that it takes.

[BkWurm1]

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  16 HOURS AGO, BKWURM1 SAID:

There's no evidence he was going to replace her with an clone.  I think he cloned her so she wouldn't die in child birth. The clone could incubate the child with no risk to Lana

 

.

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Yeah theres a scene he look at the clone just after he claimed his army was gonna live or something like that,point is he was trying to create an army and lana clone was part of it.

That only shows that he planned on animating the clones, not that he was planning on replacing Lana.  There were if I recall, many Lana clones.  Was he going to have an army of Lanas?  Or maybe it was his plan to make sure that he never lost her.  

 

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No she didnt,she didnt know lex was bad cause he convinced her he was good and honest,viewers see all the face of lex,lana sees just the one lex really shows her.Indeed she starts having serious doubt about lex when she starts to suspect he is behind the meteor freak stuff in the ep right before the wedding 6x15,when lex lie to her even tho she  see him and that doctor and start to realize all the time he lied in the same way and understand he is not the man she thought...how many time we see her defending lex?About 33.1,his honesty,that he is changed...Lana was fooled and i have to admit she has been naive.A lot.But since lex stepped in her personal life in a very bad moment pretending to be the honest hero,the man she dreamed about,we can actually understand why she acted like that...this is psychology.

No one forced her to start associating with Lex. She knew before who he was and let herself be persuaded otherwise because he could give her what she wanted.  Just saying he couldn't have tricked and deceived her if she hadn't let him into her life.    

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  16 HOURS AGO, BKWURM1 SAID:

What do you think that is?  What stereotype do you see applied to Lana?  

 

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I dont know,like the perfect girl smart,cute and that all the guys go after her,but that is not happy cause of her personal problem like she's orphan and for that has personal issues like lack of love,trust issues and that influence her life negatively(like tina grer said she has the perfect life but doesnt deserve it),but to viewers eyes she appears like shallow and ungratefull for what she has.I read a lot call her "pink princess" or something like that i dont rember exactly,but pretty much the classic "perfect girl".Even tho she says many time she is not perfect as people or clark picture her,and she dont want to be pictured like that.

Yeah, I guess you are right, I don't like people that are dissatisfied and ungrateful under those circumstances.  It's not that they can't want more or something different, but I need to see more appreciation for what they really have.  Otherwise it seems like whining and ignorance when there's so much woe is me.  

 

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Of course she does that just when things happen in front of her,its pretty hard put ur life in danger when ur not on the scene,

It's the difference between when Clark was just saving his friends and family vs actively patrolling to me.  

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Its just in season 8 that she decide to have that life,she sees clark and what she loves in him and she understand that saving life is what she wants to do too.

And based on her past, I don't believe her and since we never hear of her doing anything to save people again, I feel justified in my disbelief just like I didn't believe Lex really was reformed like he claimed when he was saved by Kara.  

 

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The super suit was no about getting clark,she didnt want the power for her personal reasons,dont u think if was really like that she would have acted differently?She wouldnt save life,as she wouldnt defuse the bomb as well.

No, I don't think she'd have acted differently. As much as I don't love Lana and think she and Clark were a bad fit, I don't think she's evil.  You'd have to be evil to let a city of people die to save your sex life.  

 

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For the isis,yeah she had the double purpose to spy on lex,but that doesnt mean isis foundation was just to cover that purpose.The fact there is a 2nd purpose doesnt mean the first is a fake one.The foundation kept on running even after she shuts down lex spying project,cause she really wanted to help the people whom lex ruined the life.

When Chloe heard about Isis in season seven, it was per Lana only at the website and pamphlet stage.  After Lana was gone, nothing was going on with Isis until Chloe made it what it was.  Before that it was so dead that Oliver and the Justice Leaguers stored their spare secret weapons and gear in the waiting room.  Chloe then took Lana's idea and made it a reality, actually helping individuals.. And then, lol, the Legion comes back in time and gives Lana all the credit as founder even though we the viewer saw very specifically that it wasn't up and running until Chloe made it what it was.  It was exactly the kind of crap that made me see Lana as a huge awful joke of a character.  

 

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 After the kidnapp she decide that besides the fact that lex would always come after her,putting in danger even clark since lex knew his secret now

Yeah Lex knew Clark's secret and he also knew who his mother was and who his friends were.  So what, Lana thinks she's the only one that might be in danger or used to hurt Clark?  I don't get that logic.  

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,she take one more time the difficult decision to sacrifice her love for clark for a greater purpose.Indeed after lana left clark decided to leave the farm and go to the daily planet.She could go back anytime she wanted,but she thought that she was holding clark back,and that thought was confirmed after she knew clark started to work at the daily planet and to save people as the red blu blur.She realized that leaving was the best thing she done for clark and his future,and didnt want to risk to ruin it.

 

 

 

We actually agree about this part.  Where we disagree is that anything really would have changed after she came back with training and a bit later, with the super suit.  The issue between Clark and Lana wasn't that she was weaker physically than he was or that she'd be targeted at times or in danger.  Those issues applied to anyone Clark was in any kind of relationship with (even his friendship with Oliver).  I just think that Lana particularly wasn't great at balancing their differences.  Her solution was as extreme as expecting Clark to give up his powers in my opinion.  

They shouldn't have had to change who they were to that degree to make it work if it was really going to work.  Which is why even if the suit hadn't turned into kryptonite, I assume it wouldn't have lasted.  There's just be another problem that messed up their "perfect" situation.  

And it's ok that you don't agree with me.  I accept that.    

Edited December 7, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Sirious Dude]

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana and Jason fought and eventually broke up after the Prom.  The thing is, Lana had already emotionally broke up with Jason before the prom where she soooo clearly was pining for Clark.  It's one of her most obvious positioning of the back up boyfriend before she deals with the current one and it really didn't impress me.  Both she and Clark talked about in that episode how they'd built up fantasies about how their prom would be and yeah, I think they both idealized that night.  I really didn't like the attitude of either of them in that episode.

Yeah she did,i said that already,but was not all of a sudden.Lana didnt have the backup boyfriend when she and jason break up. :/ Clark asks her out after she already had that fight with jason,fight that he started by his own.Lets be real.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I guess it's a matter of interpretation.  You are right that he did tell Lana in Reckoning since he choice was either tell her or lose her, but within a day he deeply regretted telling her and from her actions determined she could handle his world.  They strung along their relationship a bit longer and then finally broke up.  I guess I don't consider his actions that of a man that felt she belonged in his real life.  You see it as Clark being overly paranoid, I see it as Clark waking up to the truth and really the truth isn't what Lana could or couldn't handle, but that Clark had no faith in her being able to do it and that's as bad as Lana not being able to do it.

The truth is that he was traumatized by the fact the day he told finally his secret lana died.Of course he regretted to tell her,was being over paranoid and decided to dont tell her again,she DIED.Just try to imagine what it would be to lose the person u love,u dont bet on it again no matter what. I think tho clark had much more faith in lana than in anyone else,and considered her to belong to his life and evrything,just was afraid to lose her again...i mean he see the love of his life dead right in front of his eyes (pain and sufference cause a mental fixation of that moment )and the cause of the dead was an accident caused by lex that was going after lana cause they had a fight about clark secret.(no secret no fight no accident...so secret =cause of the dead) Thats how u understand In clark mind knowing his secret = lana die. Its simply subconscious mind association.Thats a fear.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

She pushed her to make a choice.  Nothing more.  Lana chose wrong and Chloe was done telling her what to do, probably since Lana refused to listen.  After how long and loud Chloe preached about how Lex was terrible and couldn't be trusted, Lana couldn't possibly think Chloe was pro Lex.  No one forced Lana.

"Chloe i have this terrible feeling if i do this with lex i'm gonna lose my identity.I have made bad decision but when i figured out was too late."

"Lana i dont know if lex is the right guy for u,it wouldnt be for me.But u cant sit safely by the water and watch happy people splashing around.Eventually u have to dive in."

Thats pretty much the conversation.Now  besides the fact that there is someone that forced lana,and is lex,chloe could have take the chance of lana doubts to prevent her from goind too deep with lex,but she basically says go on,"dive in",try this relationship.Lana didnt refuse to listen,she went to chloe cause she wanted her external advice BECAUSE she indeed in the first place had doubt about lex and lana started to see some incongruence with him as well.I think lana somehow  hoped chloe would talk her out of that relationship.Here some possible answer to lana question:

"Lana i dont know if lex is the right guy for u,it wouldnt be for me.I mean i know that u want a relationship and that lex seems to be the perfect man,but dont rush it if u dont trust him,cause thats not gonna change.I think u should wait for someone u trust with no doubt."   OR

"Lana maybe if u dont trust him is cause deep inside u know he's not really the honest man he claim to be?Dont let him play u,u dont have to force ur self in a relationship,the right man will come eventually.Be patient cause haste is a bad thing for relationship."

From my point of view chloe could have totally saved lana in that moment,but she didnt.She basically said take this oppurtunity.She kinda pushed lana,but i dont blame chloe tho.

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Did Lex scheme and do shady stuff like try to break up Lana and Clark? Absolutely but you have to remember that at that point Lana and Clark were so messed up as a couple that I thought they'd broken up like three times before they actually apparently broke up!  He did not break up a healthy relationship.  They were over the moment Clark decided Lana couldn't handle his life.  Lex hired hypno girl but Clark is the one that decided to end things.

Did Lex try and get Lana to love him?  Yeah, he did.  I'm not defending his actions with Hypno girl or the fake baby but I don't see where Lex did anything wrong in making his move on trying to date Lana.  He was in love with her and wanted her to love him.  He wanted the fantasy life he saw in that dream world.  But he didn't want the unhappy ending so yeah, he tried to control and manipulate. 

Funny thing is, from how their relationship built and how willing Lex actually had been in being open with Lana about his shadier stuff and how important that kind of trust and openness was with Lana, I think if Lex had been patient, Lana would have been his anyway.  But he wanted guarantees and he wanted it now and so yeah, he is the reason it all fell apart, but Lana was clear to Chloe that she wasn't marrying Lex just because of the baby.  She wanted Lex and the life he offered.  The baby just rushed everything.

They were getting closer again,and lana said im gonna wait all the time u need.Clark broke up cause wanted her to be happy and he thought he couldnt make her,cause the last time he tried she was dead by the end of the day.About the lana handling clark life,i'll talk later.

It wasnt just the hypno girl,it was all their relationship,but again im speaking from a very psychological point of view.Lex has always kept a position of power toward lana.First owner of the talon,then owner of the apartment,and then owner of her object of study.That assure him that lana will never really turn against him cause in her mind she feels she owe to lex,she depends from him.It also give to lex the opportunity to be in contact with lana,and he became her confidant.

Thats why he never played fair with her cause he knew exaclty what she wanted and he gave that to her.Thats totally wrong and not funny at all,thats the difference between seduction and manipulation.Their relationship was built on lies.Even his openess was a lie.He wasnt really honest with lana,he just shared what he thought made a better man to her eyes.The vaccine made him appear like a hero savior of the world disease.The kryptonian ability made him look powerfull.But then on the things he really should have been honest,he was not.He fooled lana and thast when we can see it,when he actually hide the thing that would show his real face and how bad he is.He said to lionel too the day of the wedding."since im with lana i wonder is this the day she realize who i really am?"

When did lana said to chloe she wanted lex and the life he offered?Im sure she express her doubt more than once.She even admitted to chloe that she was pregnant and that she regretted all the decision made in the last few months.And already before knowing of the fake pregnancy she said "this isnt the life i wanted".She totally accept just for the baby,if u look at the dynamic u realize is like i said.Then if she claims that is not  for the baby is just for pride.

Im not denying lex and lana had a relationship,im just saying it was built on lies and it was created trough manipulation.So its kinda forced,manipulation isnt really free will,lana felt dependent from lex cause lex made her like that on purpose,to be able to controll her.The decision she regrets,are forced by lex and this is something undeniable.Lionel knew this too,indeed once he said to lana "i know how important you are to lex",meaning he knew lana didnt loved lex since he was totally aware of the relationship dynamic.Lionel even helped lex to try lana loyalty,knew about the pregnancy and obviously he knew lex so had no doubt about why lana was with him.

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I do blame Lex for what he did, but I feel like you don't blame Lana at all.  

So if i should blame lana for that,then i should blame kara as well?

For few examples to explain u the dynamic of lex and lana relationship just look at how lex made kara trust him:he approach her when she had amnesia,start to visit her often,and abuse the fact that he already know who she is to gain her sympathy.Make phrase like i can tell u dont belong here,linda doesnt fit u ecc ecc. even tho HE KNOWS exactly who she is,so he is not being honest with her,he is manipulating her using the advantage of her amnesia and his knowledge.

Then she starts to say do u trust clark,i feel he is hiding something and lex keeps on with the manipulation with the usual "i dont trust clark either,but u can trust me" "id like to say i trust him,but i cant" we used to be friends but i grew up" lol So he pry on kara lack of trust ,make her trust him and he pretend to be a humanitarian philanthropist so he appear like a hero to her,a honest man who just want her to gain his memory.But we know who he really is and that all he wants is to exploit her for clark secret.

Id like to make u notice that he use the same exact tactic with lana,with the differnce that with lana his purpose is to start a relationship,so once he gained her trust,he hire the hypno to split clark and lana,wheter their relationship was healty or not(even tho i dont think lana was gonna break up,she stated to clark ill wait all the time u need).

At that very point he get advantage of lana heartbreak and confusional status,and slowly break all those psychological barrier of a friendship. Example for this:lex in the first seasons wasnt bad,we can say he was good enough,even if he still wasnt always honest.Then going on with the time he starts to become evil,but thats a path,he follows some "steps".Those steps are the psychological barrier or taboo that i mentioned before.Once u break a taboo,the next time will be eaiser to do that same thing,lets say killing someone for revenge.Going on with time lex breaks all the psychological barrier that define good from bad.And once u break those barrier,u need hard work to redifine them,like lionel,he's good in the end but still use bad manners to get what he wants cause he is used to act like that.

Thats how he became bad,and with the same dynamic thats how he transformed the friendship that lana never wanted to be more,into a relationship.He starts putting a hand on her leg,touch her shoulder,caress her face,say things that u usually dont say to a friend,he kiss her after she says she and clark had their last fight.Thats when lana was still with clark,she indeed refuse lex avances but when they broke up lex start going more sirious getting her out for dinner,during conversation he gets always closer,create tension,then he goes for the kiss,he look at her reaction.And i mean,besides the fact he look at her reactions cause he is clearly testing the waters wich is something u normally dont do in seduction or at least not like that,you can say that is normal seduction.What tho makes it not normal is that he is not being honest first,second that its not seduction cause you can totally see that he is not himslef,he is not spontaneous,not at all.And third that he is taking advantage of a weak girl,that just got out of basically 5 years of love ended with a "my feelings are changed",a girl that feels alone and needs human contact.He directs lana where he wants.Please watch season 5,at least  the ep from 12 to 18,u will notice what im talking about.

As i didnt deny lana trusted lex and that they indeed had a relationship,i wont deny that kara trusted lex and they had a really close friendship.That doesnt change the fact kara as been fooled,and lana as well and the only one to blame for this is lex,he's the one the get advantage of people with no regards.The choice lana and kara made were lead by lex.If he wanted a relationship with kara he could have manipulate her to that,as he did with lana.

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Not sure of the timeline you are thinking of but I don't see that Lex cut Lana from her friends so much as Lana chose Lex over her friends and yeah, that isolated her but it was her choice.  Chloe was there for her in any way she could be, and during her engagement, Lana had free access to Chloe, even staying with her for days, so Lex wasn't trying too hard to keep Lana away from people that didn't support him.  

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Again, we are talking perception.  Yes, Lex told her those things, but not only did Lex believe he was telling the truth, Lana agreed with him.  That's not in my opinion dragging a person into a relationship.  She's the one that kept turning to Lex because he was giving her what she wanted and not Clark.

She thought she was making her choice,but indeeed she wasnt.Like in the ep lana says clark thinks lana is a puppet in lex hands.She says she is not,but we can see that she actually is at all since she was indeed doing what lex wanted.

The way lex says those thing,its a manipulative way,he knew what were lana and clark weaknesses and he was then able to made lana turn to him,he knew what lana wanted and played with that.Lana had doubt about clark trustin her,so lex says "i dont know if clark will ever trust u,but i do" "if u cant rely on clark,u can rely on me"...But lex knew that lana could rely and trust clark,indeed lex many times prove that he knew clark still loved and cared about lana,tho still said to lana he didnt cause he knew she had this fear.Thats why he gave her thoses thing,thats exaclty what im trying to tell u.Thats the meaning of manipulation.

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

And I saw it as proof they wouldn't work and that LANA screwed it up.  Lex did what he did, but the problem was always what Lana did and how she reacted.  Lex was himself with everyone.  And everyone else could handle Clark's secret around Lex.  Lana couldn't at the time.  

Did lana screwed it up tho?Is lex that knowing lana since like i said he was her confidant has been able to correctly claim that now lana knew the secret.But in fact she didnt do anything wrong,She totally handled lex,she firmly answer back clark has nothing to hide,and if everyone else handle clark secret,its simply cause lex was never able to affirm someone knew it with any evidence.Its unfair say that lana screwed up.Lex did it all.Saw the ring.Suppose lana knew.Reproach what he have done for her.Attack her.And then cause her a mortal accident.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

And for me, what Lex brought out in Lana was just what I'd always seen inside of her, it was just no longer layered behind a mask of "perfect" and "nice".  I agree that Lana was traumatized, but her choices and actions seemed perfectly in line with who I saw on the show from the first season.  Her time with Lex just shined a light on those aspects of her personality.

And i disagree again,never seen anything like that her sweetness was totally in line with the nice girl she was.I dont know what show u seen my friend,cause there is no clue that lana could do those choices and action in the first seasons.Plus everyone has a dark side and thats a concept we see a lot in the show.Lex took out the darkest side of lana,as red k takes worste side of clark out,but that doesnt mean thats the real side of em.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Again we disagree.  Season 8 was Lana lying and manipulating people to get what she wanted while keeping all her friends and family in the darkk about what she was doing.  And then when her plan failed, she ran and cut them all out of her life again.  

Clark lied and manipulated people for all the show,and we know it was doing to protect them.Thats what lana do in season 8(in season 7 not at all) she knew lex with that suit would have been dangerous and didnt want to drag neither clark or chloe in that mission,she was indeed working alone.She knew that prometeus was lex attempt to be clark equal and we learn that the suit is actually designed as a weapon against clark.Lana knew that clark would never even tried to stop lex,he would more and likely waited to face him.And lana couldnt let lex get superpower.Her plan didnt fail,she prevent lex from getting superpower.Thats her plan.Then lex  caused her to leave since she couldnt stand a life where she sees clark everday and couldnt be with him(not just in that way)i mean near him share the life with him.Andmore than that she knew that even if they will always love each other,they needed now to move on and until lana was there clark couldnt move on.I already said this.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana wasn't in the dark about CLark's secret.  Chloe shared what she knew and Lana rejected it all.  I don't see where Chloe had any special insider info except for IMO actually knowing Clark better than Lana.  

I intend that chloe knew of the existence of bizarro,lana didnt.Tho i have to admit,lana did get fooled by bizarro too.Chloe had sooo many info more than lana,she knew clark cause in the last 3 season chloe and clark shared really a lot.During season 5 lana didnt get the chance to really know clark,in season 6 she's with lex,and in season 7 they both are different person from who they are in season 5 or in season 1 when they fell in love.They both had their darkest moment,pain suffernce and losts.Chloe knew better clark cause basically clark and lana were 2 strangers,for 2 years they basically didnt have that much contact with eachother.Tho they still felt a strong love that made em together again.Isnt that the important?

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

You said it yourself: a person isn't who they were in their last conversation, they are who they have been through the whole relationship.  And Lana and Clark through their whole relationship were never satisfied by the other.  

In season seven when Lana finally set aside her Lex revenge, she then turned to Bizarro.  Clark on the other hand was leaning emotionally on Chloe rather than Lana. They were together but the fractures were clear and had she not been attacked and put in a coma, I'm sure they would have just broken up.  And proof of that to me is that Lana saw no reason to return to their life as it was after she was briefly kidnapped.  She knew that version of them was doomed.

But so was the version she became because that version of her wasn't honest.  She let Clark believe a lie for a year while she was finding herself.  She claimed she wanted to fight crime but not only had we seen no pattern of that in her past, once being with Clark was off the table, she never did anything with the suit.  Plus, even if Lana was this new remade, kick ass woman, that woman was a stranger to Clark.  

And all of that is why I'm sure it wouldn't have lasted.  

They actually were satisfied by each other,they were in season 5,in season 2,some part of season 7 and totally in season 8.When they were really honest and open with each other,thats the basic of a relationship,isnt it?

Yeah but thats just speculation,so as u said it deosnt count.U are not sure they would broke up...maybe that after that they start the relationship better than ever,brainiac was out,lex was missing and they had nothing to interfear between their relationship.But this is speculation so what i say has no real meaning and what u say as well.Maybe she knew that coming back was point less.Lex would have tried again just with the differnce he could have injured clark.Plus as i already said before and as lana said,that was a difficult choice.Maybe lana realized that what she said in the video was not that wrong,or that she simply wanted to escape and restore her self after all she has been trough.

Wasnt a lie tho,i mean she was forced to rec the video,but she did leave him so in the end the lie became true.Whats the differnce if clark knew that THE VIDEO was a fake if in the end she still was gone? We see no pattern? What about the time she wanted to defeat 2 kryptonians all by her self cause they killed a lot of people?Isnt that a pattern of right and justice?And when she offer herself to kill zod cause she was the only one able to ger near enough?Then she asks clark to go patrol together cause thats what she wants to do.We have seen all the possible pattern of a hero soul and spirit,more than once. She then realize what she want to do.Clark realize in season 8 he want to be a full time hero too,didnt he? None is born knowing already what he wants to do of his life.

We have to suppose that she does that with the suit since thats what her last appearance lead us to believe.Is not a new remade kick ass woman,is the same lana that just became more strenght,but not just physically.She did start a dark path,but now she finds again the right one.Actually is like the first season lana,she recovers the good side of her and she free her self of the negative sides.But i think in season 8 more than ever is the real lana we see since the first season,so is less stranger than in season 7. 

This was the right time,the one that more than anytime could have lasted,they were honest to each other,they were still deeply in love,but more important they were both adult.Thats something i think ruined their passed attempts,they were too childish didnt know how to actually keep a relationship.

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Again, the tie in comic was one guy's take on the show after it was done.   It never happened on the show so I don't give it any more weight than any other of the fan fictions created by non show runners.  That several years later they tried to redeem Lana's storyline has nothing to do with what the show actually chose to portray or not portray.

I thought it was canonic with the show,so i dont really know what to say about that.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 1:22 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I do think that they gave up rather quickly and didn't even try to look for other solutions.  They lived in a world with magic but they just took no for an answer?  I don't disagree that Clark wouldn't have been able to move on for a long time had Lana not left, though I tend to see him not moving on more out of guilt than anything.  And really, did Lana do anyone any favors if her leaving meant Clark moving on with that Lois?  Yikes.  

Clearly is more of a writing convenience,but even tho,the irreversable was pretty much clear as status.Like braniac with the lana coma.There are things that can be changed my friend.Im happy to see we do agree on something. lol

U mean that if lana would have remained he wouldnt move on to not hurt her?Cause that make him feel guilty?Anyways i agree with the lois thing,at that very point as i already stated,chloe was much more worthy.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[Sirious Dude]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

That only shows that he planned on animating the clones, not that he was planning on replacing Lana.  There were if I recall, many Lana clones.  Was he going to have an army of Lanas?  Or maybe it was his plan to make sure that he never lost her.  

Thats what i meant by  replacing,in the case she would have leaved,he could have activated her clone,wich just prove lex was just obsessed with her as an object.But i dont know,since this is lex luthor he could had even kill or cage lana,and live with lana clone.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

No one forced her to start associating with Lex. She knew before who he was and let herself be persuaded otherwise because he could give her what she wanted.  Just saying he couldn't have tricked and deceived her if she hadn't let him into her life.    

U dont let yourself be persuaded...it wouldnt be persuasion.Lex forced him self in lana life,look at season 5,he LITERALLY force him self in her life.She didnt trusted him anymre after how he acted in season 4 finale.But he MANIPULATED and gained her trust again with lies.As u said,she was tricked and deceived,thats exactly the point my friend.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah, I guess you are right, I don't like people that are dissatisfied and ungrateful under those circumstances.  It's not that they can't want more or something different, but I need to see more appreciation for what they really have.  Otherwise it seems like whining and ignorance when there's so much woe is me

She wasnt ungratefull tho,she just wanted her parents.Thats why when she discover her biological father she look for him,Lana needed a father figure.You cant really blame her for that.Her parents are the only thing she was dissatisfied about,like clark she was orphan.Differnce is that she was raised only by her aunt,didnt have none to call mom or dad.Thats kinda sad,and totally in line with the whining,Clark whines about his biological parents too.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's the difference between when Clark was just saving his friends and family vs actively patrolling to me.  

Maybe yes,so lana starts her hero life in season 8 exactly like clark.Except that clark always had superpower.Lana starts right when she gain with the suit.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And based on her past, I don't believe her and since we never hear of her doing anything to save people again, I feel justified in my disbelief just like I didn't believe Lex really was reformed like he claimed when he was saved by Kara.

You are just speculating and you are free to believe that,but its not what the show want us to believe. The reality of the show want us to believe lana bacame a superheroine,wich is even in line with the character.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

No, I don't think she'd have acted differently. As much as I don't love Lana and think she and Clark were a bad fit, I don't think she's evil.  You'd have to be evil to let a city of people die to save your sex life.  

Nah,not evil,just selfish,and u stated that lana is actually selfish many times.U said she think herself before other.Now ur saying this...So this prove that she is not either selfish or evil.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

When Chloe heard about Isis in season seven, it was per Lana only at the website and pamphlet stage.  After Lana was gone, nothing was going on with Isis until Chloe made it what it was.  Before that it was so dead that Oliver and the Justice Leaguers stored their spare secret weapons and gear in the waiting room.  Chloe then took Lana's idea and made it a reality, actually helping individuals.. And then, lol, the Legion comes back in time and gives Lana all the credit as founder even though we the viewer saw very specifically that it wasn't up and running until Chloe made it what it was.  It was exactly the kind of crap that made me see Lana as a huge awful joke of a character.  

Lana had a really low on screen in season 7,so they didnt show much about isis foundation,but for the little they showed,we can clearly see the foundation working.When chloe discover it,there is other people there for consulting or whatever,and even after the lex spying get shut down,lana goes regularly to the fundation and always runs till lana goes in coma.Simply the writers didnt deepen with that,and they focused more in season 8,cause they needed somewheer to put chloe in,and then in season 9 isis is totally forgotten.So the fact that in season 8 we see chloe making meteor frek group meeting,doesnt mean lana didnt do that as well,just that now they showed us.No doubt tho that chloe improved it,as lana admit to her,but that doesnt change the fact that lana started it.It was lana's idea.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Yeah Lex knew Clark's secret and he also knew who his mother was and who his friends were.  So what, Lana thinks she's the only one that might be in danger or used to hurt Clark?  I don't get that logic.  

Quote

Ma kent wasnt lex's object of desire,lana was.Thats the logic.Lex going after lana could hurt physically clark in the process.

 

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

We actually agree about this part.  Where we disagree is that anything really would have changed after she came back with training and a bit later, with the super suit.  The issue between Clark and Lana wasn't that she was weaker physically than he was or that she'd be targeted at times or in danger.  Those issues applied to anyone Clark was in any kind of relationship with (even his friendship with Oliver).  I just think that Lana particularly wasn't great at balancing their differences.  Her solution was as extreme as expecting Clark to give up his powers in my opinion.  

They shouldn't have had to change who they were to that degree to make it work if it was really going to work.  Which is why even if the suit hadn't turned into kryptonite, I assume it wouldn't have lasted.  There's just be another problem that messed up their "perfect" situation.  

And it's ok that you don't agree with me.  I accept that.  

She didnt plan to come back indeed,but once she came back she wasnt the deviated girl of season 7,and neither the whiny girl of season 1.Lana didnt change with the training,she just matured and cleaned her mind and soul,gained back her sweetness and pure heart,but without the whiny and childish issues since she was now adult,or the dark side.She was a grown up adult with her right mind and spirit of the early seasons,but all the experience she had in those 8 years.Their issues were back in the seasons: clark lack of honesty and openess in the first place,and after lex,lana was the dihonest one.In season 8 they dont have those problem anymore,especially after the suit mission and to be clear she didnt stole the suit to be with clark.She started the suit mission not knowing she would eventually come back to smallville.And she started to date clark again before accomplishing the suit mission.

They started again in s8 as grown up adults,that knew how to bring on a mature relationship,that was tho fueled by a childish true love,wich is the purest kind of love.The strongest.

The fact that they now played on a equal plan,was not the point of the relationship, was the point of being able to share and do what they wanted to do,together.They started to date again before she put the suit.And they would have kept on dating even without the suit.It was just a plus,an optional.

They didnt change who they really are,they just grew up,remember they started their relationship at 15.Its obvious that in 8 years and that in this particular period of life they change,its called becoming an adult. That doesnt mean they now are 2 complete different person or that they changed on the purpose to fit one with the other.Thats why this time would have lasted.Cause after all they were still there,they grew up together loving eachother.Even in the darkest moment.If this isnt true love...

Edited December 8, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 

Chloe i have this terrible feeling if i do this with lex i'm gonna lose my identity.I have made bad decision but when i figured out was too late."

"Lana i dont know if lex is the right guy for u,it wouldnt be for me.But u cant sit safely by the water and watch happy people splashing around.Eventually u have to dive in."

Thats pretty much the conversation.Now  besides the fact that there is someone that forced lana,and is lex,chloe could have take the chance of lana doubts to prevent her from goind too deep with lex,but she basically says go on,"dive in",try this relationship.Lana didnt refuse to listen,she went to chloe cause she wanted her external advice BECAUSE she indeed in the first place had doubt about lex and lana started to see some incongruence with him as well.I think lana somehow  hoped chloe would talk her out of that relationship.

 

This is not the first or even the last conversation that Chloe and Lana had about Lex.  Chloe was so against the relationship that she and Lana were estranged.  Lana came to Chloe and basically called a truce and at that point Chloe still told Lana that she thought Lex was not the right guy from her standpoint.

 But Lana wasn't asking Chloe's opinion on Lex.  She was telling Chloe in really broad terms that she questioned any and all future decisions she was going to make about everything because in the past she'd sometimes only figured out she'd made a mistake too late.  Chloe has already told her again and again that Lex is a mistake.  That isn't what the conversation is really about.  Chloe is saying never actually getting involved in your life is no way to live and that there are no guarantees.   

Chloe has already repeatedly made her thoughts clear on Lex and Lana has already made her choice to be with Lex.  This really isn't about Lex because Chloe has no influence on that choice.  I do believe Lana was going to make the same choice with or without Chloe's thoughts.  Cause no where in that conversation does Chloe say that Lex is a good idea.  She only tells Lana that not living her live because of fear is not a good idea.  And Lana then once more picked the life she wanted.  

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

.Lex has always kept a position of power toward lana.First owner of the talon,then owner of the apartment,and then owner of her object of study.That assure him that lana will never really turn against him cause in her mind she feels she owe to lex,she depends from him.It also give to lex the opportunity to be in contact with lana,and he became her confidant.

Lana went to Lex about the Talon.  Not the other way around.  And they actually were partners as ridiculous as that is.  (And she used that partnership until she was done with it and sold her half and ran off to Paris.)  Yeah, Lex is in her life on a lot of levels but because she let him in and kept letting him in.  Yeah, he had what she wanted to study but guess what, he's a bad guy.  Don't take gifts from bad guys.  Instead Lana wanted what she wanted and let Lex in.  Lex only was able to get close to Lana cause she would rather hanging with a known bad dude that her friends don't trust than not get what she wants.  

 

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

For few examples to explain u the dynamic of lex and lana relationship just look at how lex made kara trust him:he approach her when she had amnesia,start to visit her often,and abuse the fact that he already know who she is to gain her sympathy.Make phrase like i can tell u dont belong here,linda doesnt fit u ecc ecc. even tho HE KNOWS exactly who she is,so he is not being honest with her,he is manipulating her using the advantage of her amnesia and his knowledge.

Lana did not have amnesia.  Huge difference and if you recall, Kara listened even with her amnesia when Chloe and Lana snuck in to the Luthor Manor.  She was actually willing to listen to reason and evidence of people that she actually really didn't know.  Lana knew the people warning her about Lex.  

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

,and with the same dynamic thats how he transformed the friendship that lana never wanted to be more,into a relationship.He starts putting a hand on her leg,touch her shoulder,caress her face,say things that u usually dont say to a friend,he kiss her after she says she and clark had their last fight.Thats when lana was still with clark,she indeed refuse lex avances but when they broke up lex start going more sirious getting her out for dinner,during conversation he gets always closer,create tension,then he goes for the kiss,he look at her reaction.And i mean,besides the fact he look at her reactions cause he is clearly testing the waters wich is something u normally dont do in seduction or at least not like that,you can say that is normal seduction.What tho makes it not normal is that he is not being honest first,second that its not seduction cause you can totally see that he is not himslef,he is not spontaneous,not at all.And third that he is taking advantage of a weak girl,that just got out of basically 5 years of love ended with a "my feelings are changed",a girl that feels alone and needs human contact.He directs lana where he wants.Please watch season 5,at least  the ep from 12 to 18,u will notice what im talking about.

I know what you are talking about, I just disagree.  Lex is Lex so yeah, bad dude but there is nothing wrong with anyone wanting to move from a friendship to a romance and testing the waters and trying to get closer is exactly how someone would do it.  It's strategy.  It's not required to be spontaneous.  Seduction is usually very deliberate and designed to make the most of openings and weaknesses.  

Lana could have put her foot down and walked away.  She didn't. Was she vulnerable?  Yes, but lots of people that are vulnerable know to then take themselves out of the situation that they are vulnerable to.  I can sympathize with Lana's emotional state, but hitting on a girl when she's on the rebound isn't unusual at all.  Clark tried it with some success with Lana in season one as well.  

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

She thought she was making her choice,but indeeed she wasnt.Like in the ep lana says clark thinks lana is a puppet in lex hands.She says she is not,but we can see that she actually is at all since she was indeed doing what lex wanted

Clark was blind as well.  Doing what someone wants you to do doesn't automatically mean you have given up free will to do it.  There was something that Lex was giving her that she didn't want to give up.  It was a weakness and then she got in too deep.  I can forgive her for doing it, but she needs to own her part in her seduction, of why she was willing to get in too deep in the first place.  I won't put it all on Lex.  He could only dangle the lure.  She had to be too weak to tell him no.  

 

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Did lana screwed it up tho?Is lex that knowing lana since like i said he was her confidant has been able to correctly claim that now lana knew the secret.But in fact she didnt do anything wrong,She totally handled lex,she firmly answer back clark has nothing to hide,and if everyone else handle clark secret,its simply cause lex was never able to affirm someone knew it with any evidence.Its unfair say that lana screwed up.Lex did it all.Saw the ring.Suppose lana knew.Reproach what he have done for her.Attack her.And then cause her a mortal accident.

She went to him when he called in the first place.  And she didn't know how to deescalate the situation.  Others that knew Clark's secret could handle themselves better.  Lana freaked and ran and then gets into a dangerous car chase.  He was chasing her, but she was running.  She was scared and didn't know how to handle it.  

 

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

I dont know what show u seen my friend,cause there is no clue that lana could do those choices and action in the first seasons

The Whitney thing in the second episode told me a lot.  

 

22 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Chloe knew better clark cause basically clark and lana were 2 strangers,for 2 years they basically didnt have that much contact with eachother.Tho they still felt a strong love that made em together again.Isnt that the important?

Honestly, no, it's not that important to me.  It's what makes me think the "love" is all based on a fantasy.  They really didn't know each other that well so what is the basis of their feelings?  Whatever it was, it wasn't deeply knowing each other.  

 

22 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

And when she offer herself to kill zod cause she was the only one able to ger near enough?

Inflated self worth thinking she could actually do it, lol.  She couldn't.  

22 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

I thought it was canonic with the show,so i dont really know what to say about that.

He got the legal rights to use the characters and jump off from the show's storylines but the show stopped filming so it doesn't make it canon to me.  And in the past comics that the show claimed were canon were contradicted or ignored.  They can say what they want, but in the end, it was a transformiative work done with characters form an existing show in a different medium than which the show was done.   Except for being able to make some money off of it, what they did is the definition of fan fiction.  Means nothing to me.  

[BkWurm1]

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Thats kinda sad,and totally in line with the whining,Clark whines about his biological parents too.

Mostly when bio dad tries to maim, kill, brand, and mind whammy himself, his parents and his friends and the occasional stranger.  I can actually support that kind of whining.  Jor-El, the real villain of the story.  

 

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Nah,not evil,just selfish,and u stated that lana is actually selfish many times.U said she think herself before other.Now ur saying this...So this prove that she is not either selfish or evil.

Selfish does not automatically equal evil. Even most criminals aren't evil.  Being a basic human being and not letting a city full of people die when you can save them does not mean a person in their day to day life isn't selfish.  

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

When chloe discover it,there is other people there for consulting

And that's where Lana tells Chloe nothing is up and running yet. Once her spy network is shut down, I don't recall Lana regularly going to Isis and again, when Chloe moved into the offices, there was nothing going on.  

 

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

but that doesnt change the fact that lana started it.It was lana's idea.

 

Yup, her idea but we saw that it was a front for the money she stole from Lex.  Her actions said the idea was just a cover.  

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Ma kent wasnt lex's object of desire,lana was.Thats the logic.Lex going after lana could hurt physically clark in the process.

 

But hurting his mother wouldn't have hurt Clark?

21 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

They started to date again before she put the suit.And they would have kept on dating even without the suit.

Sorry, this is as much speculation as any opinion I gave about how their relations would have turned out.  

[Sirious Dude]

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

This is not the first or even the last conversation that Chloe and Lana had about Lex.  Chloe was so against the relationship that she and Lana were estranged.  Lana came to Chloe and basically called a truce and at that point Chloe still told Lana that she thought Lex was not the right guy from her standpoint.

 But Lana wasn't asking Chloe's opinion on Lex.  She was telling Chloe in really broad terms that she questioned any and all future decisions she was going to make about everything because in the past she'd sometimes only figured out she'd made a mistake too late.  Chloe has already told her again and again that Lex is a mistake.  That isn't what the conversation is really about.  Chloe is saying never actually getting involved in your life is no way to live and that there are no guarantees.   

Chloe has already repeatedly made her thoughts clear on Lex and Lana has already made her choice to be with Lex.  This really isn't about Lex because Chloe has no influence on that choice.  I do believe Lana was going to make the same choice with or without Chloe's thoughts.  Cause no where in that conversation does Chloe say that Lex is a good idea.  She only tells Lana that not living her live because of fear is not a good idea.  And Lana then once more picked the life she wanted.  

She told wasnt for herself,but to lana she said i dont know if is right for u.Could have said its not.

The subject of the convo was lex,is implied and both of them knew that so lana kinda WAS asking her opinion about going "deeper" in the relationship with lex.She said that she felt all the decisions she made were wrong,it includes getting involved with lex.Lana felts she made a mistake and was asking chloe,since she told her since the beginning that it was a mistake,what to do at that point.Chloe gave her green light,said go on,gotta take some risk.

Again im not blaming chloe,but at that very point she encouraged lana in the relationship with lex,is a fact.I dont know why we arguing about something that cant even be questioned.Thats was not the life she wanted,she said that too later(before the fake pregnancy discovery, just to be clear)

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana went to Lex about the Talon.  Not the other way around.  And they actually were partners as ridiculous as that is.  (And she used that partnership until she was done with it and sold her half and ran off to Paris.)  Yeah, Lex is in her life on a lot of levels but because she let him in and kept letting him in.  Yeah, he had what she wanted to study but guess what, he's a bad guy.  Don't take gifts from bad guys.  Instead Lana wanted what she wanted and let Lex in.  Lex only was able to get close to Lana cause she would rather hanging with a known bad dude that her friends don't trust than not get what she wants.  

I will skip the part about the malicious comment of the partnership...Lana went to lex cause he was the one who was buying it.Most of the time when u do a deal with the devil ur the one who go after him,its not him that comes to u.Thats how he get adavntage,knowing that u need him.As lionel did with the kents,as lex did with jimmy at the end of s7.Lex was in clark life as well,and clark let him in too.But u have to admit that lex pushed his way in as well,he offers cause he know that people need.This is called getting advantage of people weakness.Lana didnt know lex was a bad guy,she thought he was good and honest and that something we can see many times during their relationship.She is convinced lex is good and want to do good in the world.

 

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana did not have amnesia.  Huge difference and if you recall, Kara listened even with her amnesia when Chloe and Lana snuck in to the Luthor Manor.  She was actually willing to listen to reason and evidence of people that she actually really didn't know.  Lana knew the people warning her about Lex.

Exaclty,lana had 5 years of manipulation against just some months for kara.In those years lex has proved to her to be reliable,just as he did with kara.

Who warned lana?Chloe and clark.Obviously clark couldnt even talk about that to lana expecting she actually listen to him ,and when chloe did,she talked to lex first.Then lex told to lana about his convo with chloe and from the way he treated chloe we can assume that with lana lex took the part of the victim,and when lana faced chloe,she stated exaclty that could never be anything between em.(thats a proof about how lex forced the relationship).

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I know what you are talking about, I just disagree.  Lex is Lex so yeah, bad dude but there is nothing wrong with anyone wanting to move from a friendship to a romance and testing the waters and trying to get closer is exactly how someone would do it.  It's strategy.  It's not required to be spontaneous.  Seduction is usually very deliberate and designed to make the most of openings and weaknesses.  

Lana could have put her foot down and walked away.  She didn't. Was she vulnerable?  Yes, but lots of people that are vulnerable know to then take themselves out of the situation that they are vulnerable to.  I can sympathize with Lana's emotional state, but hitting on a girl when she's on the rebound isn't unusual at all.  Clark tried it with some success with Lana in season one as well.  

Its wrong the way he did.Thats not seduction,seduction is an art,what did lex was manipulation,in seduction u dont act like someone else and u dont get advatage of people,thats mean and just coward act like that.Im pretty sure i even read somewhere that my theory is right,that their whole relationship was created with manipulation and lies.It doesnt take a genius to understand it,just need to watch the show with open mind and no blinders.

Clark did not get advantage of lana,they wasnt together till late season 2,a lot after whitney died.In season one they didnt have anything going on,they just see each other a lot.

Yeah,instead IT IS unusual if u are the one that put the girl on the rebound,this is what im trying to tell u dude,this is why its a manipulation because lex WAS the indirect cause of lana and clark break up.Lex made lana vulnerable and the got advantage of her,even thanks to what he knew about her.Even chloe siad that,"take advantage of a girl is mean even for u".

Now u can even say they would have break up anyways,but its again just speculation.Besides the fact that lana told clark that she was waiting all the time he needed,the fact is that the way it went,lex did break them up.Thats a thing that cant be questioned,i mean it WENT like this,its not something u can have a different thought or point of view about cause its simply the way it went...is really pointless arguing it.Ur negating the reality of the show,why?

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Clark was blind as well.  Doing what someone wants you to do doesn't automatically mean you have given up free will to do it.  There was something that Lex was giving her that she didn't want to give up.  It was a weakness and then she got in too deep.  I can forgive her for doing it, but she needs to own her part in her seduction, of why she was willing to get in too deep in the first place.  I won't put it all on Lex.  He could only dangle the lure.  She had to be too weak to tell him no.  

Dude,my friend,go check some site about psychology and u will realize what i mean by manipulation and thinking to do what u want,but instead doing what others want.Doesnt mean u dont have free will,but that u get influenced in the decision.Yeah,so what was this thing she didnt want to give up?The lies?She wasnt willing even of pursuing that relationship,now she even wanted to go deep?Didnt we already talked about the fact that she DID NOT want to go deeper with lex?She had a lot of doubts that got cleared by chloe.

I will pull it on lex tho,i see objectivly how he acted and he is extremely incorrect and manipulatory.Just think,clark didnt had to do anything like that to get lana,neither did jason or whitney.She didnt need to get manipulated to get in a relationship with them,she was naturally attracted,but with lex she wasnt.He had to lie,manipulate,fake to be someone else and did all the worng things to get lana.I actually think that the way he hitted on lana,is one of the main reason he became ruthless and evil.In order to get and to mantain her,he lose all the inhibitions and since that he started to REALLY be the villain of the show.The path to get lana is what really took completely his dark side out.

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

She went to him when he called in the first place.  And she didn't know how to deescalate the situation.  Others that knew Clark's secret could handle themselves better.  Lana freaked and ran and then gets into a dangerous car chase.  He was chasing her, but she was running.  She was scared and didn't know how to handle it.  

Cause she is a good friend,she knew he was probably upset and wanted to see him.Remember lana didnt see the side of lex that clark and chloe have already see.

Dude we can talk about everything u want,but just be honest and objective.She totally handle lex when he just ask her,he took her face,she takes his hand off and firmly says clark has no secret.Then lex GO CRAZY,throw a glass of whisky in the fire,scream and totally ATTACK HER,she just run from a psycopath that was visibly drunk,angry and violent.U HAVE to take count of this too before say anything,and u didnt.Of course she was scared and she freak,the dude almost beated her up.Did someone ever get in that same situation that u can say anyone else could have handled it better?No.

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

The Whitney thing in the second episode told me a lot.  

She forgive whitney,yes,but first she fight with him and then she apolagize with clark.He act like the jealous boyfriend to excuse his behavious,but she totally change her mind on whitney.She wanted to dump him many times,she was just too good to do it cause he was in a difficult period and need someone to take care of him.

 

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Honestly, no, it's not that important to me.  It's what makes me think the "love" is all based on a fantasy.  They really didn't know each other that well so what is the basis of their feelings?  Whatever it was, it wasn't deeply knowing each other.  

Thats should be the proof that their love IS NOT based on fantasy.After a while the fantasy is gone,so why they still try to be together?Thats the proof that their love is the exact opposite,is based on a deep feeling,a deep connection,the kind of one that has no explaination and doesnt need basis.Its just love,and the rest come after.Its unconditional.Thats what the writers want us to perceive.

 

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Inflated self worth thinking she could actually do it, lol.  She couldn't.  

Bravery is a concept not everyone can understand ... LOL

Edited December 13, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[Sirious Dude]

On 9/12/2016 at 6:51 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Selfish does not automatically equal evil. Even most criminals aren't evil.  Being a basic human being and not letting a city full of people die when you can save them does not mean a person in their day to day life isn't selfish.  

Well it does,if that means sacrifice ur love.Thats exaclty the difference between being selfish and not being selfish.Do u think someone who is selfish during his daily life would have sacrificed the love of his life to save other people?Answer is no,selfish means ur wellness before other people wellness.Do u think lex in that same situation have choose to save the people if that meant lose his great love for ever?Think about when lois threatened tess with a gun so she couldnt close the portal of the pz.In that moment she was putting in danger a high number of lifes if some phantom escaped like the last time.Why did she do that?For having clark.Lana tho saved those life even if that means sacrifice her relationship with clark.Obv its good that clark escaped the phantom zone,but still lois was selfish in that moment.

 

On 9/12/2016 at 6:51 AM, BkWurm1 said:

And that's where Lana tells Chloe nothing is up and running yet. Once her spy network is shut down, I don't recall Lana regularly going to Isis and again, when Chloe moved into the offices, there was nothing going on.  

 

On 9/12/2016 at 6:51 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Yup, her idea but we saw that it was a front for the money she stole from Lex.  Her actions said the idea was just a cover.  

She says they just started and they want to expand,chloe say you are on the net thats a lot.Lana did go at the isis tho,she was always there even after the spy was shut down,during the 2 ep bizarro,during the one after and all the ep she was in we see her at the isis :/ Brainiac attacked her at the isis...and thats why when chloe moved nothing was going on,lana was in a coma.

Again,thats not true,having a double purpose doesnt mean the first is not real.She wanted to help people too.Why bother make a web page,why hire a secretary?Why go public if u real purpose is spy on someone?If she didnt went public,then she wouldnt have anything to cover cause none would have seen that office as the isis foundation.The proof her intention were real is that she actually open it up.If she wanted just to spy on lex why dont just use that office as secret base and thats it?She didnt need to cover anything and none would have knew,neither Chloe that found out by her self,or clark.Think about it.Please.... LOL

On 9/12/2016 at 6:51 AM, BkWurm1 said:

But hurting his mother wouldn't have hurt Clark?

LOL Are u sirious or what mate?Did i said lex wanted to hurt clark? Im saying lex purpose to take lana away from him COULD hurt clark in the process.

On 9/12/2016 at 6:51 AM, BkWurm1 said:

They started to date again before she put the suit.And they would have kept on dating even without the suit.

 

On 9/12/2016 at 6:51 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Sorry, this is as much speculation as any opinion I gave about how their relations would have turned out.  

 

Actually,since im objective and honest,lana did say that she didnt want to be clark distraction so she wasnt really planning to date in power,but she said that referring to when she came back for the wedding,but since in bulletproof clark convince her saying the world dont have to come first,and they make out....I say again they would have dated.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

She told wasnt for herself,but to lana she said i dont know if is right for u.Could have said its not.

The subject of the convo was lex,is implied and both of them knew that so lana kinda WAS asking her opinion about going "deeper" in the relationship with lex.She said that she felt all the decisions she made were wrong,it includes getting involved with lex.Lana felts she made a mistake and was asking chloe,since she told her since the beginning that it was a mistake,what to do at that point.Chloe gave her green light,said go on,gotta take some risk.

Again im not blaming chloe,but at that very point she encouraged lana in the relationship with lex,is a fact.I dont know why we arguing about something that cant even be questioned.Thats was not the life she wanted,she said that too later(before the fake pregnancy discovery, just to be clear

It's not a fact that she encouraged Lana to be in a relationship with Lex.  Encouraged means give support that affirms a choice or decision.  Chloe was against Lex.  Full stop.  But Chloe was willing to let Lana make her own choices based on her own judgment and that was what the "I don't know if he's right for you" part was about.  

Yes, she could have said that Lex is not right for you, but she's already said it in multiple ways and Lana ignored her and pulled away.  Lana showing up was the first olive branch. And not to get too real, but I've had a friend in a relationship with a real terrible guy. Verbal abuse of the worst kind.  And there came a point where if I expressed my opinion any more that our friendship would have been over and where would that have left her?  Even more isolated.  So I tried to be there for her in a way she'd let me.  It wasn't a random choice.  I researched the best way to handle a friend in an abusive relationship.  There comes a point where all you can do is prove you are still there however they need you.  

Neither my friend nor Lana needed to hear anyone say again that the dude they were involved with was a rotten dude. They know what everyone thinks.  

Lana was involved with Lex and her choice was going to involve her relationship with Lex, but Lana didn't ask if Chloe thought dating Lex was a good idea.  Lana expressed worries and then she mentioned she'd made mistakes in the past and only figured it out later (which I'm 99.999999% certain actually had nothing to do with Lex) So Chloe answered Lana's question about what Lana was really asking, if since she'd made mistakes in the past, should she always assume the worst so she wouldn't get hurt.   And Chloe said that's not living.  

Yes Chloe knew Lana was going to apply it to Lex, but that isn't on Chloe.  That's Lana.  Chloe did nothing to support Lana's choice of Lex.  She only supported Lana living her life to the fullest.  Lana is the one making the choices on how to do that.  

I know we aren't going to agree and than's fine.  We can both have our own viewpoint as long as we don't try to push our opinion as absolute fact.  

[BkWurm1]

11 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

I will skip the part about the malicious comment of the partnership...Lana went to lex cause he was the one who was buying it.Most of the time when u do a deal with the devil ur the one who go after him,its not him that comes to u.Thats how he get adavntage,knowing that u need him.As lionel did with the kents,as lex did with jimmy at the end of s7.Lex was in clark life as well,and clark let him in too.But u have to admit that lex pushed his way in as well,he offers cause he know that people need.This is called getting advantage of people weakness.Lana didnt know lex was a bad guy,she thought he was good and honest and that something we can see many times during their relationship.She is convinced lex is good and want to do good in the world.

Funny thing, I wasn't actually being malicious with my comment on Lex and Lana's partnership being ridiculous.  It was ridiculous but on a totally business standpoint.  She wasn't even 16 and what she knew about running a coffee shop hadn't been enough to keep her from getting fired from her job at one in season one.  Lex deciding to invest in this child with no skills and then just give her 50 % of the business while putting up all the money is something that only happens on television.  Even Clark being from another planet seems more plausible but it wasn't meant as a personal slight against Lana.  Just a comment on reality.  I know, reality has very little to do with Smallville, lol. 

Season one and two Lex is a Lex that I tend to defend. (Even a lot of season three) I'm not convinced that Lex was destined to turn evil.  I think he was trying to be a good guy.  He had a temper and had his faults and was certain to cross lines but I think his intent was good and truly, if Clark hadn't been such a crappy friend early on, I think Lex would have turned out differently, so I don't really think Lana was seeking out a bad guy early on with the Talon.  So I really don't think her deal with Lex that time should be classified as a deal with the devil.  For one, Lex had no idea she'd have any interest in the Talon.  He wasn't laying a trap or dangling bait.  

And when he did help Lana, I think he actually was trying to still help Clark get the girl.  It's just that eventually Lex decided he wanted the girl instead (and why not since from his standpoint Clark treated her like crap anyway)  

BUT one of the reasons that I do shake my head over Lana and her deal with Lex and the Talon is because it was to save something of purely sentimental value that personally I think showed her immaturity.  And really, that's fine, she was a kid, but I'm afraid that two years later when she'd outgrown her sentimental attachment to it and used the profits from her shares to get her latest to die for dream, I judged her for her fickleness.  What she just couldn't imagine surviving without (the Talon) meant very little to her a short time later.  Just as her art meant very little to her a few months later and the astronomy a bit later and then all the good works she was going to do with Lex's wealth and power and then Isis and then ....well, you can see why I had trouble believing Lana was ever going to stick to anything.  But I'm getting off topic.     

By season four, Lana knew exactly who Lex was and what he was capable of.  And from then on, I can't only blame Lex for having what she wanted.  In life there are needs and wants.  Lex rarely had what she needed, only what she wanted, but it's on Lana if she mistook the one for the other, even if Lex offered the bait.  Can't catch a fish unless they bite.

When the Kent's got tangled up with Lionel the first time, Lionel was just a businessman with a lot of pull that owed them a favor.  They didn't know.  Later, each of the characters went back and forth on their dealings with Lionel.  Ultimately I think he could have been trusted with Clark's well being but he had so many other agenda's at the same time I can't blame anyone for cutting him out of their trust circle.  

With Lex, Clark trusted him early on.  And his parents even came to like him between the end of season two and the start of season three.  And he and Chloe's interests aligned at the end of season three into season four and again, if Clark hadn't chosen his secret over his friend's mental health, I think Lex would have taken a different path but he didn't and Lex didn't.  And by a quarter of the way into season 4 Chloe and Clark and the Kents and even Lana were having issues with Lex.  (Even when it really wasn't his fault, he was blamed.)  Nobody was blind to how dangerous Lex was anymore.  But after that, only Lana allowed him close enough to convince her otherwise.  

12 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Exaclty,lana had 5 years of manipulation against just some months for kara.In those years lex has proved to her to be reliable,just as he did with kara.

Who warned lana?Chloe and clark.Obviously clark couldnt even talk about that to lana expecting she actually listen to him ,and when chloe did,she talked to lex first.Then lex told to lana about his convo with chloe and from the way he treated chloe we can assume that with lana lex took the part of the victim,and when lana faced chloe,she stated exaclty that could never be anything between em.(thats a proof about how lex forced the relationship).

Lana had known Lex for five years before she got involved with his research of the spaceship but just a few months before she'd feared for her life from him.  She also knew of many of the times when Lex had been a problem for her friends and she knew that Clark, Lex's former best friend now considered him an enemy and Lana trusted Clark over Lex at the end of season four and yet just a few short months later, while she still had a great relationship with Clark and Chloe, she formed another partnership with Lex.  She had years and years of history that she ignored.  Her own history.  Lex wanted her on his side, but she wasn't an amnesiac like Kara who only knew good things about Lex.  Lana knew the bad as well.  Kara didn't.  

Lana saying, when confronted, that she could never be in a relationship with Lex - that isn't proof that Lex forced a relationship.  It only proves that either Lana was in denial or that she changed her mind.  When I was a kid I said I hated tomatoes and now I love them.  But that doesn't mean they were ever forced on me.  

12 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Its wrong the way he did.Thats not seduction,seduction is an art,what did lex was manipulation,in seduction u dont act like someone else and u dont get advatage of people,thats mean and just coward act like that.Im pretty sure i even read somewhere that my theory is right,that their whole relationship was created with manipulation and lies.It doesnt take a genius to understand it,just need to watch the show with open mind and no blinders.

Clark did not get advantage of lana,they wasnt together till late season 2,a lot after whitney died.In season one they didnt have anything going on,they just see each other a lot.

Yeah,instead IT IS unusual if u are the one that put the girl on the rebound,this is what im trying to tell u dude,this is why its a manipulation because lex WAS the indirect cause of lana and clark break up.Lex made lana vulnerable and the got advantage of her,even thanks to what he knew about her.Even chloe siad that,"take advantage of a girl is mean even for u".

Now u can even say they would have break up anyways,but its again just speculation.Besides the fact that lana told clark that she was waiting all the time he needed,the fact is that the way it went,lex did break them up.Thats a thing that cant be questioned,i mean it WENT like this,its not something u can have a different thought or point of view about cause its simply the way it went...is really pointless arguing it.Ur negating the reality of the show,why?

We all watch the show with our own opinions and preconceived notions.  My way of watching is no more wrong than your way. All either of us can do is express how we see it.  And as long as Lex actually had real feelings for Lana, it was IMO not all based on lies or manipulation.  

And I personally think that seduction was what Lex was doing.  Lex wanted Lana to fall in love with him because he was (in his own way) in love with her.  I'd only call it a manipulation if he only wanted her to love him so he could get her to do something that had nothing to do with him loving her.  Like if he was trying to con her into thinking he loved her when he didn't.    

I'm not saying that Lex didn't manipulate situations or outcomes, but he didn't coldly sit back and plot Lana's seduction just to play puppet master.   He wanted the girl and he set out to get the girl.  Very straight forward IMO.  

Season one Clark made a date with Lana for a concert while she was still with Whitney saying it was just as friends but then he planned on swooping in with a limo and all sorts of other romantic moves to convince her to see him that way.  The only reason he didn't see it through is he had to bail from the limo last second to go save the day.  So no, Clark was not above an effort of planned seduction.  Even just being friendly with her was about getting closer so she'd choose him instead of Whitney. And it worked and she started pining for Clark while she was with Whitney.  

12 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

,the fact is that the way it went,lex did break them up.Thats a thing that cant be questioned,i mean it WENT like this,its not something u can have a different thought or point of view about cause its simply the way it went...is really pointless arguing it.Ur negating the reality of the show,why?

Again, it's not fact.  Why?  Because Lex's plan to break them up by using hypno girl so Lana could see Clark cheating on her failed.  Lex's plan failed.  Chloe explained and Lana was ready to forget everything that happened.  Lex didn't break them up.  His plot failed.  Clark was told by Chloe it was all fixed and only then did he decide to go ahead and break up with Lana because it would always be something.  Clark broke up not specifically because of Lex, but because this was just another in a long line of him doing something that hurt Lana.  It was Clark's choice.  No one forced him to do it.

And going back to the part where Clark had decided not to tell Lana after all - when it was fear of them breaking up that pushed him to tell her in the first timeline - he did know it was inevitable.  The only thing Lex might have done was spurred Clark to act sooner than later.  Because again, Clark and Lana were fine after Hypno girl.  They were fine until Clark ended it.

So yeah, it's very much up to debate if Lex broke them up or not.  

12 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

She didnt need to get manipulated to get in a relationship with them,she was naturally attracted,but with lex she wasnt.He had to lie,manipulate,fake to be someone else and did all the worng things to get lana.I actually think that the way he hitted on lana,is one of the main reason he became ruthless and evil.In order to get and to mantain her,he lose all the inhibitions and since that he started to REALLY be the villain of the show.The path to get lana is what really took completely his dark side out.

The thing is, I think that Lex managed to get Lana by not lying to her and not manipulating her and by being who he really was.  Well, to a point but that point isn't really any different than I'd expect of anyone else.  Nobody shares all their secrets right away.  I think he lost her because of the lying and the manipulation with the baby.  He actually was honest with her about the alien ship.  He was genuine in wanting to work with her and spend time with her.  Lex in general acts like a well mannered guy and he's frequently generous and hospitable.  He also was upfront with her about him seeking to fight the aliens.  He hid Level 33.3 but had Lana continued to be supportive of Lex, I think he would have opened up about that as well. I also think it wasn't getting Lana that turned Lex to his dark side, but losing her.  

13 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Cause she is a good friend,she knew he was probably upset and wanted to see him.Remember lana didnt see the side of lex that clark and chloe have already see.

Dude we can talk about everything u want,but just be honest and objective.She totally handle lex when he just ask her,he took her face,she takes his hand off and firmly says clark has no secret.Then lex GO CRAZY,throw a glass of whisky in the fire,scream and totally ATTACK HER,she just run from a psycopath that was visibly drunk,angry and violent.U HAVE to take count of this too before say anything,and u didnt.Of course she was scared and she freak,the dude almost beated her up.Did someone ever get in that same situation that u can say anyone else could have handled it better?No.

By mid season five, Lana HAD seen that side of Lex.  She just chose to work on the mystery of the aliens with him anyway and from there, he build back up her trust.  

I am being objective but I don't have the same viewpoint going into it as you do.  I'd be tempted to say to many Lana defenders that they are not being objective because of their affection toward Lana.  Lex did act in a manner that frightened Lana.  And she ran off and Lex immediately expressed his regret and sorrow.  Even if Lana felt that he was going to act out again if he caught up to her, she'd made it to her car.  He couldn't have gotten in.  She had her phone.  Lex even has guards and servants.  She turned it into a high speed car chase. She didn't have to do that.  I'm not saying it wasn't a bad situation, only that others that knew Clark's secret knew how to handle themselves better.  Take Chloe.  

While Lex didn't kiss her first or start to apologize, Lex, when he found Chloe in his study (where she'd just saved Clark and was covering for him after he stole the stone) kidnapped her and forced her to go to the caves in the middle of the deadly meteor shower, dragging her around and manhandling her and making threats.  Lex  was arguably a bigger threat to Chloe than to Lana.  At least he was sorry for how he acted with Lana.  Chloe again had to cover for Clark by knocking Lex out of the way and then staying mum when Lex tracked her down in the Arctic.  And yet no one got killed and there was no car chase or Chloe even calling for help.  She handled it on her own.  So yeah, others have been in similar situations and managed to handle themselves without freaking out.  

13 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

She forgive whitney,yes,but first she fight with him and then she apolagize with clark.He act like the jealous boyfriend to excuse his behavious,but she totally change her mind on whitney.She wanted to dump him many times,she was just too good to do it cause he was in a difficult period and need someone to take care of him.

Many episodes later she wanted to break up with him, but not because of how he treated Clark. For that she forgave him and later that day they were closer than ever.  I'll let Lana slide on not breaking up with him when his father was ill (though I kind of remember one of the reasons she wanted to break up with him was because he was always off working) but it was not kind of her to not tell him where they stood before he joined the army.  And waiting and then telling him at the end of a video that was supposed to be a happy thing from the whole town - that was extra awful.  Have some class and make the two events separate.  

13 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Thats should be the proof that their love IS NOT based on fantasy.After a while the fantasy is gone,so why they still try to be together?Thats the proof that their love is the exact opposite,is based on a deep feeling,a deep connection,the kind of one that has no explaination and doesnt need basis.Its just love,and the rest come after.Its unconditional.Thats what the writers want us to perceive.

Because they'd gone through so much to be together and treated it like this huge thing that was worth whatever sacrifice they made so when reality hit and they found out in season seven they really weren't a great fit beyond a superficial niceness, they weren't yet willing to give up.  Lana goes out to remake herself and it still goes wrong.  

Again, I don't doubt that they both cared for each other or even that they had a feeling of love toward the other, but I don't think it was based on being with that person, but of just longing for the idea of them.  

And as for being unconditional, well, everything I saw said that their love only existed with conditions.  When something went wrong, it fizzled.  Yes, turning into Kryptonite was a a really big something and I know the finality of it had a lot to do with the actress being gone, but that's behind the scenes.  In show, she didn't have the kind of love that could endure being in his life but from a distance.  Unconditional to me means nothing would stop them from any kind of connection.  

13 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Bravery is a concept not everyone can understand ... LOL

Again it's perception, because I saw a lot of brave things on Smallville, some of them even by Lana, I just think there is a difference between being brave and foolhardy.  

[BkWurm1]

13 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Well it does,if that means sacrifice ur love.Thats exaclty the difference between being selfish and not being selfish.Do u think someone who is selfish during his daily life would have sacrificed the love of his life to save other people?Answer is no,selfish means ur wellness before other people wellness.Do u think lex in that same situation have choose to save the people if that meant lose his great love for ever?Think about when lois threatened tess with a gun so she couldnt close the portal of the pz.In that moment she was putting in danger a high number of lifes if some phantom escaped like the last time.Why did she do that?For having clark.Lana tho saved those life even if that means sacrifice her relationship with clark.Obv its good that clark escaped the phantom zone,but still lois was selfish in that moment.

Agree to disagree.  No, not every selfish person would have saved the city if it meant they couldn't be physically close to the person they loved but I think if their significant other was right there and you know if you didn't save the city you'd have ruined your relationship anyway the percentage goes significantly up.  

Again, you can have someone that it selfish in smaller scale things that can be noble in huge things. 

And anytime you use Lois as an example, I'm just going to roll my eyes.  Lois was IMO a tool.  And an idiot.  And Tess could have disarmed her in the flick of her pinky finger.  If anything, Lois and the gun only helped Tess decide to do what she really wanted to do anyway.  

Agreed, Lois was selfish but in that particular case she was deluded about there actually being any real risk.  Tess probably just accepted the trade off whereas Lois I really beleive thought Clark was a god so of course any problem she caused he'd just fix right up when he got back.  What a myopic, short sighted, simpleton.  

If you can't tell, I may not have been a Lana fan but I really, really hated Lois.  At least I know why Lana IMO thinks she loves Clark. With Lois before she found out his secret, I think it was because he looked good in a dress shirt?  And she liked that he did her grunt work on the job?  That she liked his mother?  

Once they they both lost their job at the planet and she was no longer able to feel special helping the Blur (aka Zod) she quickly lost interest.  Seems telling if you ask me.  

Edited December 14, 2016 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

13 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

She says they just started and they want to expand,chloe say you are on the net thats a lot.Lana did go at the isis tho,she was always there even after the spy was shut down,during the 2 ep bizarro,during the one after and all the ep she was in we see her at the isis :/ Brainiac attacked her at the isis...and thats why when chloe moved nothing was going on,lana was in a coma.

Again,thats not true,having a double purpose doesnt mean the first is not real.She wanted to help people too.Why bother make a web page,why hire a secretary?Why go public if u real purpose is spy on someone?If she didnt went public,then she wouldnt have anything to cover cause none would have seen that office as the isis foundation.The proof her intention were real is that she actually open it up.If she wanted just to spy on lex why dont just use that office as secret base and thats it?She didnt need to cover anything and none would have knew,neither Chloe that found out by her self,or clark.Think about it.Please.... LOL

Opening a business for cover requires actually doing something.  She told Clark the ten million was a divorce settlement as opposed to the truth, that she'd embezzled it from Lex when she framed him for murder.  She then had to hide from Clark what she was spending it on. She also needed to explain where she was going when she was going to spy on Lex.  The answer to all her questions was Isis.  She basically laundered the money and most money laundering operations involve an actual open business. 

Lana hired a secretary, printed some pamphlets and got a web site up.  But that was it.  That was all done while she was using Isis as a cover.  Later when she was at Isis, we saw her all alone.  As far as I knew, she might have just been going there so she wasn't stuck on the farm with Clark.  Maybe she was maintaining the website as well, but when it comes to any services, there was no evidence of there being any.  And when she went into a coma, there didn't seem to be anything to look after.  Not until Chloe decided to make something of it.  

Quote

 

  ON 12/8/2016 AT 11:51 PM, BKWURM1 SAID:

But hurting his mother wouldn't have hurt Clark?

 

Quote

LOL Are u sirious or what mate?Did i said lex wanted to hurt clark? Im saying lex purpose to take lana away from him COULD hurt clark in the process.

I thought we were talking about one of the reasons why Lana decided to not return to Clark after her supposed good bye Im holding you back video. That her vulnerability to Lex prompted her to get tough so she could defend herself.  My point being that she didn't need to leave or do that since for example, Martha, was still just normal Mom and didn't need to change in order to be in a relationship with her son.  Threat of what Lex could do didn't mean Martha had to leave while I though you were implying that it did for Lana.  If I misunderstood, my apologizes.  

14 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Actually,since im objective and honest,lana did say that she didnt want to be clark distraction so she wasnt really planning to date in power,but she said that referring to when she came back for the wedding,but since in bulletproof clark convince her saying the world dont have to come first,and they make out....I say again they would have dated.

My comment about it being speculation was about where you said they would have continued dating had she not gotten the power suit.  We don't know if they'd have kept dating or not.  I'm not saying they would have been broken up by the time the episode with the suit happened, but I have no reason to believe that all their same old problems wouldn't have reared their ugly heads like they have always done in the past.  

[Sirious Dude]

On 14/12/2016 at 4:28 AM, BkWurm1 said:

I know we aren't going to agree and than's fine.  We can both have our own viewpoint as long as we don't try to push our opinion as absolute fact.

Yeah i probably pushed a lil bit on the fact thing,but you are right about the disagreement.

 

On 14/12/2016 at 4:28 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Yes, she could have said that Lex is not right for you, but she's already said it in multiple ways and Lana ignored her and pulled away.  Lana showing up was the first olive branch. And not to get too real, but I've had a friend in a relationship with a real terrible guy. Verbal abuse of the worst kind.  And there came a point where if I expressed my opinion any more that our friendship would have been over and where would that have left her?  Even more isolated.  So I tried to be there for her in a way she'd let me.  It wasn't a random choice.  I researched the best way to handle a friend in an abusive relationship.  There comes a point where all you can do is prove you are still there however they need you.  

Neither my friend nor Lana needed to hear anyone say again that the dude they were involved with was a rotten dude. They know what everyone thinks.  

Lana was involved with Lex and her choice was going to involve her relationship with Lex, but Lana didn't ask if Chloe thought dating Lex was a good idea.  Lana expressed worries and then she mentioned she'd made mistakes in the past and only figured it out later (which I'm 99.999999% certain actually had nothing to do with Lex) So Chloe answered Lana's question about what Lana was really asking, if since she'd made mistakes in the past, should she always assume the worst so she wouldn't get hurt.   And Chloe said that's not living.  

Yes Chloe knew Lana was going to apply it to Lex, but that isn't on Chloe.  That's Lana.  Chloe did nothing to support Lana's choice of Lex.  She only supported Lana living her life to the fullest.  Lana is the one making the choices on how to do that.  

Yeah because from those verbal abuse like from lex FAKE behaviour towards lana,came out a solid connection between em wheter is healty or not,there is devotion.Why abused woman dont tell anyone about the abuse they get?Its not just fear,its mental dependence,most of the time this kind of woman are not even able to do choices by their own.And that point is reached by spending most of your time with a man that tells u what to do,like lex negating lana to do that charity thing she wanted.After years it became natural for the girl to depend of the man even for the less important choices.Those are perfect exemples of a manipulative partner.

I know what u say,but have u ever been on the other side?Have u ever been the one involved with some bad guy ?Someone with some kind of influence that uses it to manipulate people around him?U dont listen to what people say and u tend to be overprotective,thats the strenght of that kind of people,to create blind faith and absolute devotion,like lana with lex,and then tess.Tess was convinced lex was good,until lana showed her real lex intentions.

I know what u mean,but what im trying to say is that since chloe in that moment had the power to talk lana out of her relationship with lex prying on the doubt she had,just like lex did with lana and her doubt about clark,not using that power and pushing her to "live",equals pushing her in a relationship with lex.But like i said i dont blame chloe since she actually didnt pushed lana,even tho she kinda did.Do u understand what im trying to say?

[Sirious Dude]

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Season one and two Lex is a Lex that I tend to defend. (Even a lot of season three) I'm not convinced that Lex was destined to turn evil.  I think he was trying to be a good guy.  He had a temper and had his faults and was certain to cross lines but I think his intent was good and truly, if Clark hadn't been such a crappy friend early on, I think Lex would have turned out differently, so I don't really think Lana was seeking out a bad guy early on with the Talon.  So I really don't think her deal with Lex that time should be classified as a deal with the devil.  For one, Lex had no idea she'd have any interest in the Talon.  He wasn't laying a trap or dangling bait.  

I thought i could defend lex too,but then i realized after a reawatch that lex was bad since the beginning,his behaviour was always the same,his attitude,whats changed was his interests,his way to get what he wanted tho was always the same.I usually blame clark when u have to,but he wasnt crap to lex,i actually think he was really a good friend,in the moment lex needed him he was alaways there.Lex maybe had good intetnion,but he wasnt honest with clark with thing he should have been.I think eventually clark started to act diffident to lex cause in his subcouncious he knew lex wasnt trust worthy.

I dont think clark had much to do with lex becoming evil,actually he slowed down his path.The real evil from lex came from his relationships,after helen bryce and the crazy island thing he started to let his dark side out,and then as i already said in another post,his final dark path was with lana.

I dont say he wanted to trap her,but he anyways always had a position of power toward lana.Wheter was intentional for getting advantage or not.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

By season four, Lana knew exactly who Lex was and what he was capable of.  And from then on, I can't only blame Lex for having what she wanted.  In life there are needs and wants.  Lex rarely had what she needed, only what she wanted, but it's on Lana if she mistook the one for the other, even if Lex offered the bait.  Can't catch a fish unless they bite.

 

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

With Lex, Clark trusted him early on.  And his parents even came to like him between the end of season two and the start of season three.  And he and Chloe's interests aligned at the end of season three into season four and again, if Clark hadn't chosen his secret over his friend's mental health, I think Lex would have taken a different path but he didn't and Lex didn't.  And by a quarter of the way into season 4 Chloe and Clark and the Kents and even Lana were having issues with Lex.  (Even when it really wasn't his fault, he was blamed.)  Nobody was blind to how dangerous Lex was anymore.  But after that, only Lana allowed him close enough to convince her otherwise.

Clark didnt chose his secret over lex mental heatlh,he went to rescue him from the electroshok.He just had troubles with the other freaks.Clark one more time like pete said gave lex too many chances,plus is clear how lex just want to USE clark and his abilities for his personal purpose.We can see in season 7 that clark had nothing to do(if not just good)with lex dark path.

Did lana actually allowed him?Isnt more and likely that lex forced him self in her life again after she pushed him out?He got advantage of her to take the blackship,then he made her think she was crazy,for that too lana is hostil towards lex.Then lex forced him self in lana apartment,she ask him to get out and he starts the manipulation to gain her trust again "i dont think ur crazy" after he deliberately made her think she was.See thats what i mean for manipulation.And then it gets on like this,a little bit at a time lex get always closer to lana and so is able to blind her and convince heer he is changed or he is honest.Its pure psychology and manipulation.Nothing more.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana had known Lex for five years before she got involved with his research of the spaceship but just a few months before she'd feared for her life from him.  She also knew of many of the times when Lex had been a problem for her friends and she knew that Clark, Lex's former best friend now considered him an enemy and Lana trusted Clark over Lex at the end of season four and yet just a few short months later, while she still had a great relationship with Clark and Chloe, she formed another partnership with Lex.  She had years and years of history that she ignored.  Her own history.  Lex wanted her on his side, but she wasn't an amnesiac like Kara who only knew good things about Lex.  Lana knew the bad as well.  Kara didn't.  

Lana saying, when confronted, that she could never be in a relationship with Lex - that isn't proof that Lex forced a relationship.  It only proves that either Lana was in denial or that she changed her mind.  When I was a kid I said I hated tomatoes and now I love them.  But that doesn't mean they were ever forced on me.

Thats the point my friend,lana had 5 years of history that most of the time we have to admit was good.She ignored the bad part cause lex was able to pry on the good ones,and then to use lana doubts to make her see him as good and trust worthy,while clark wasnt.

Lol,what i mean that lex acted on her to the point of her being into him.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

We all watch the show with our own opinions and preconceived notions.  My way of watching is no more wrong than your way. All either of us can do is express how we see it.  And as long as Lex actually had real feelings for Lana, it was IMO not all based on lies or manipulation.  

And I personally think that seduction was what Lex was doing.  Lex wanted Lana to fall in love with him because he was (in his own way) in love with her.  I'd only call it a manipulation if he only wanted her to love him so he could get her to do something that had nothing to do with him loving her.  Like if he was trying to con her into thinking he loved her when he didn't.    

I'm not saying that Lex didn't manipulate situations or outcomes, but he didn't coldly sit back and plot Lana's seduction just to play puppet master.   He wanted the girl and he set out to get the girl.  Very straight forward IMO.  

Do you know whats is really LOL? Thats EXACTLY what he did. He sit back,he traced the hypno girl,he hired her to split clana up,then he planned to make his move,he did it,he offered to live in the mansion(and said never asked other girls...helen bryce....desire atkins...),he started a sexual relationship so he could fake a pregnancy to assure a yes when he propose.He planned what to do with lana since before they even started dating.

How can be this seduction?"He set out to get the girl"... U think the way lex acted towards lana is something good and acceptable?(fake pregnancy apart wich is obv not good)I dont know what u think,but from my pov its bad,really bad.Disgusting actually.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Season one Clark made a date with Lana for a concert while she was still with Whitney saying it was just as friends but then he planned on swooping in with a limo and all sorts of other romantic moves to convince her to see him that way.  The only reason he didn't see it through is he had to bail from the limo last second to go save the day.  So no, Clark was not above an effort of planned seduction.  Even just being friendly with her was about getting closer so she'd choose him instead of Whitney. And it worked and she started pining for Clark while she was with Whitney.

Indeed,that was lex plan.He pushed clark to do it,"he is a high school boyfriend she is not married" and clark repeated that to martha,just to make u notice the bad influence lex has.Clark had the chance to have lana when she was with whitney and she was gonna choose him,he didnt.Lex admitted that he would have tho,and indeed later in season 5 he do it.Deliberately.

Plus lana interest for clark is more genuin and true that for lex.Clark was himself with lana and didnt lie and manipulate to gain her trust and love.He did tho get close to her,but thats not bad as long as he doesnt act like lex,and obv he dont.

And anyways planning a date is not like planning a split up,and before that clark never trash talked whitney.Lex did with clark,since season 3 the first hints.In season 5 is crystallin.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Again, it's not fact.  Why?  Because Lex's plan to break them up by using hypno girl so Lana could see Clark cheating on her failed.  Lex's plan failed.  Chloe explained and Lana was ready to forget everything that happened.  Lex didn't break them up.  His plot failed.  Clark was told by Chloe it was all fixed and only then did he decide to go ahead and break up with Lana because it would always be something.  Clark broke up not specifically because of Lex, but because this was just another in a long line of him doing something that hurt Lana.  It was Clark's choice.  No one forced him to do it.

And going back to the part where Clark had decided not to tell Lana after all - when it was fear of them breaking up that pushed him to tell her in the first timeline - he did know it was inevitable.  The only thing Lex might have done was spurred Clark to act sooner than later.  Because again, Clark and Lana were fine after Hypno girl.  They were fine until Clark ended it.

So yeah, it's very much up to debate if Lex broke them up or not.

Simply because  if there was no hypno girl they wouldnt have break up.Lana would have wait.And even if they would eventually break up,at that point lex doing a move on lana would be less bad.But THE FACT is that lex DID hire the hypno girl,with the intention of breking them up and in the end is what happens.Wheter is because clark dont want to hurt lana anymore,or that he was hypnotized to cheat on her,the hypno girl has the effect of breaking them up.

Even if clark made the choice,he made it because THIS FACT made him realize that he is hurting her.The fact that somehow lex pry on their weakness,means he break them up.If he wouldnt pry,they would have not break up.Lana was ready to wait all the time clark needed and as long as he was not hurting her,he would have not break up to save her from the pain or whatever.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

The thing is, I think that Lex managed to get Lana by not lying to her and not manipulating her and by being who he really was.  Well, to a point but that point isn't really any different than I'd expect of anyone else.  Nobody shares all their secrets right away.  I think he lost her because of the lying and the manipulation with the baby.  He actually was honest with her about the alien ship.  He was genuine in wanting to work with her and spend time with her.  Lex in general acts like a well mannered guy and he's frequently generous and hospitable.  He also was upfront with her about him seeking to fight the aliens.  He hid Level 33.3 but had Lana continued to be supportive of Lex, I think he would have opened up about that as well. I also think it wasn't getting Lana that turned Lex to his dark side, but losing her.

Lex wasnt him self with lana,he was acting,he admits that too.He admits he is afraid of when lana will see his real face,cause he intentionally hide it from her.The good mannered,generous and hospitable guy is just a facade.He is not really like that,he pretend to be that person to be liked by people and cause its part of his manipulative ways.He lose lana before she discovers the fake pregnancy,she said that life wasnt what she wanted.She wanted to dump him on the wedding day when she realized clark still loved her,cause lana never was lex's.He couldnt lost her cause she never was really his.

Dude he wanted to spend time with her cause he liked lana.But wasnt honest about the ship.He found it months before telling lana about it.He used the ship card to get in her life again.Thats not being honest,thats lie and manipulation.And he just told her the things he needed to gain her trust.ut just the things that could made hima better man to her eyes...like the power,the humanitarian vaccin to save the world,the savior of the heart from the aliens.But the things that would have showed his real face he hide that,and i dont think he would have ever showed her lv 33.1,he knew that would have disgusted lana.

And lex in s6 is already on his dark side,right after getting her.He is the enemy of the season,losing lana maybe just made him more crazy and psycopath,but his dark side was so already there.

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

By mid season five, Lana HAD seen that side of Lex.  She just chose to work on the mystery of the aliens with him anyway and from there, he build back up her trust.  

I am being objective but I don't have the same viewpoint going into it as you do.  I'd be tempted to say to many Lana defenders that they are not being objective because of their affection toward Lana.  Lex did act in a manner that frightened Lana.  And she ran off and Lex immediately expressed his regret and sorrow.  Even if Lana felt that he was going to act out again if he caught up to her, she'd made it to her car.  He couldn't have gotten in.  She had her phone.  Lex even has guards and servants.  She turned it into a high speed car chase. She didn't have to do that.  I'm not saying it wasn't a bad situation, only that others that knew Clark's secret knew how to handle themselves better.  Take Chloe.  

While Lex didn't kiss her first or start to apologize, Lex, when he found Chloe in his study (where she'd just saved Clark and was covering for him after he stole the stone) kidnapped her and forced her to go to the caves in the middle of the deadly meteor shower, dragging her around and manhandling her and making threats.  Lex  was arguably a bigger threat to Chloe than to Lana.  At least he was sorry for how he acted with Lana.  Chloe again had to cover for Clark by knocking Lex out of the way and then staying mum when Lex tracked her down in the Arctic.  And yet no one got killed and there was no car chase or Chloe even calling for help.  She handled it on her own.  So yeah, others have been in similar situations and managed to handle themselves without freaking out.  

Lana did see it,but she kinda forget it cause of lex influence.

I dont defend lana just because its one of my favorite charcater,but because most of the time i just read hate and things against her.And i dont like injustice and hate,so i feel i have to defend her since none else seems willing to doi it.She may not be perfect and surely has done some wrong choices,but she doesnt deserve all the hate that she usually gets.

Now that i think about it,yes chloe did cover clark and handled the situation better,but wasnt exactly the same situation,he didnt have any proof on chloe.He couldnt tell for sure she knew something about clark,cause at that point chloe didnt even knew about clark.Lex could tell chloe knew something and thats it.With lana he did,he knew that clark told her the truth whatever it is and he was correctly sure of that.With chloe he just was suspicious.

But yeah i admit on this one actually ur right,even tho there are some difference,lana run away and chloe didnt,tho she wasnt racing,lex was chasing her at high velocity,lana was going at a normal speed.She basically when lex attacked her just run instead of submit to lex as chloe did.But that doesnt mean lana cant handle clark life.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[Sirious Dude]

On 14/12/2016 at 6:38 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Because they'd gone through so much to be together and treated it like this huge thing that was worth whatever sacrifice they made so when reality hit and they found out in season seven they really weren't a great fit beyond a superficial niceness, they weren't yet willing to give up.  Lana goes out to remake herself and it still goes wrong.  

Again, I don't doubt that they both cared for each other or even that they had a feeling of love toward the other, but I don't think it was based on being with that person, but of just longing for the idea of them.  

And as for being unconditional, well, everything I saw said that their love only existed with conditions.  When something went wrong, it fizzled.  Yes, turning into Kryptonite was a a really big something and I know the finality of it had a lot to do with the actress being gone, but that's behind the scenes.  In show, she didn't have the kind of love that could endure being in his life but from a distance.  Unconditional to me means nothing would stop them from any kind of connection.  

Thats it,u said it.They werent willing to give up,why would someone hold so much on something that is just idea?The way i see it,they simply love each other,meaning that their love was the simpliest kind of love,pure and genuin.They just wanted to be with each other,no matter what.Star crossed lovers is not just for external reason that they cant be together,other times the reason are internal,they were too young when they started their relationship and they werent able to handle it.In season 5 internal and external,they break up,in season 7 lana had to recover from lex,and clark was trying to live a life wasnt his.Season 8 no matter what they still loved each other,they still had that feeling to want to be together,and this time for external reason they still have to break up.

Lana did not goes to "remake" herself for clark,she do it for herself.She even says to clark that in the first place she didnt thought they could be together,she didnt want to be a distraction in his life.Thats her thought when she came back for the wedding.Then when clark says the world doesnt have to come first,what do we need ecc ecc. she realize that maybe she can stay with clark without being a distraction.Then she gets the suit,and since she cant be hurt and its clark equal,he doesnt have to worry about her.She was somehow ready to sacrifice her love for clark in order to give him to the world(if im not wrong the same thing happens in the comics).

It is unconditional tho,whenever something went wrong they still managed to clear the situation and dont give up on their love.

At that very point in requiem staying would have mean pain and suffernce and none would have moved on.A useless stall.Its not like they decide to stay friend and lana wants to go.They were ripped apart at the top of them being a couple.She didnt want to be a distraction for clark,and thats what she would be if she stayed.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

I know what u say,but have u ever been on the other side?Have u ever been the one involved with some bad guy ?Someone with some kind of influence that uses it to manipulate people around him?U dont listen to what people say and u tend to be overprotective,thats the strenght of that kind of people,to create blind faith and absolute devotion,like lana with lex,and then tess.Tess was convinced lex was good,until lana showed her real lex intentions.

 

Honestly no, because when I got a whiff of something off, I trusted my gut and backpedaled immediately.  Even when it was socially awkward and I was getting social pressure to go along with it, I still ended things or avoided people or found reasons to say no.  I didn't let myself make excuses even if it meant not getting something I wanted.  That's the behavior that gets you in too deep.  I never let myself get in that position in the first place.  I set boundaries and stuck to them.  But I will admit not everyone does that.  

 

Quote

I know what u mean,but what im trying to say is that since chloe in that moment had the power to talk lana out of her relationship with lex prying on the doubt she had,just like lex did with lana and her doubt about clark,not using that power and pushing her to "live",equals pushing her in a relationship with lex.But like i said i dont blame chloe since she actually didnt pushed lana,even tho she kinda did.Do u understand what im trying to say?

I understand what you are saying but I'll never agree that Chloe pushed Lana into doing something she didn't want to do or wasn't going to do or could have been talked out of.  If you just said that you wished that Chloe had done more in that moment to say that Lex was bad or told Lana being with Lex was a mistake or just refused to give her any advice, I could accept that.  I just don't agree at all that Chloe played a part in sending Lana to Lex.  I can understand the wish for a bigger negative reaction from Chloe but Lana going all in with Lex was always her choice and no one else's.

Chloe basically told Lana to not keep sitting on the fence.  To live her life. The thing is, there are two sides to the fence.  Chloe pushed Lana to take a good look at her life and make a choice and dive in.  Lana choose to dive into the Lex pool.  She could have chose to dive the other direction.  But it was time to make a choice and stop pretending she could have it both ways - especially when her actions already said what side she'd picked.

I've half wondered if Chloe was just frustrated about Lana dragging the inevitable out and deluding herself that she was still debating anything.  If you are going to make that choice, live your life and own it.  Or don't.  Either way get on with it. Had Lana made the right choice, would you still give Chloe credit for convincing her to drop Lex?    

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Clark didnt chose his secret over lex mental heatlh,he went to rescue him from the electroshok.

Actually  from what I remember, he only last minute decided to try and stop the treatment.  He let Lex stay in that prison and be accused of being insane for an awfully long time before he decided maybe he should do the right thing and later, when Lex was desperate to regain the lost time and memories that the electroshock therapy stole from him, Clark tattled to Lionel and it wasn't to save Lex, but to protect his secret.  A secret that before the electroshock therapy, Lex had proved he would keep.  

I don't know for sure that Clark trusting Lex could have changed everything, but I also don't know that it couldn't have.  I still think that Lex, given the chance, would have put all his manipulations and ambitions behind protecting Clark rather than stopping him. It's the difference between trusting Clark and not trusting him and when their friendship failed, neither had reason to keep trusting the other.  And in it's place, fear grew which pushed Lex to more and more dark and desperate actions.

 

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

On 12/13/2016 at 11:38 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I'm not saying that Lex didn't manipulate situations or outcomes, but he didn't coldly sit back and plot Lana's seduction just to play puppet master.   He wanted the girl and he set out to get the girl.  Very straight forward IMO.  

Do you know whats is really LOL? Thats EXACTLY what he did. He sit back,he traced the hypno girl,he hired her to split clana up,then he planned to make his move,he did it,he offered to live in the mansion(and said never asked other girls...helen bryce....desire atkins...),he started a sexual relationship so he could fake a pregnancy to assure a yes when he propose.He planned what to do with lana since before they even started dating.

How can be this seduction?"He set out to get the girl"... U think the way lex acted towards lana is something good and acceptable?(fake pregnancy apart wich is obv not good)I dont know what u think,but from my pov its bad,really bad.Disgusting actually.

  I just said in the above quote that he manipulated the situations and outcomes, but it was never done only to play puppet master.  It was done to make her fall in love with him and stay with him because he was in love with her.  He didn't just play puppet master for the thrill of it.  Like I said earlier in the same post, I'd only classify his manipulations as nothing to do with seduction if he hadn't also been in love with her.  He didn't want her to fall in love with him so he could steal a fortune or trick her into letting him access missile codes.  He wanted her to love him like he loved her.  So all his schemes and tricks and manipulations, while all very wrong, still fall under IMO the heading of Lex trying to seduce Lana.  He wasn't trying to con her for some other reason.  

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Lex wasnt him self with lana,he was acting,he admits that too.He admits he is afraid of when lana will see his real face,cause he intentionally hide it from her.

Lex hid dark stuff from Lana, but his personality, his lifestyle, his likes and dislikes, those he didn't hide.  He wasn't pretending to be someone else, he was hiding aspects of who he was.  Yes he was afraid when Lana found out about some of his projects and how far he was willing to go that she would leave him, but that doesn't mean that she didn't like the rest of who he really was as well.  Those everyday natural parts of him (and they count too) are what she liked.  The lifestyle, his knowledge, his personality, they all make up who Lex is as well.  We will have to agree to disagree.

 

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Thats the point my friend,lana had 5 years of history that most of the time we have to admit was good.She ignored the bad part cause lex was able to prey on the good ones,and then to use lana doubts to make her see him as good and trust worthy,while clark wasnt.

 Again, we'll have to agree to disagree about what she learned in those five years.  

 

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

With lana he did,he knew that clark told her the truth whatever it is and he was correctly sure of that.With chloe he just was suspicious

Did he know or did he again just guess, only for Lana to basically confirm it from her expression.

 

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

most of the time i just read hate and things against her.And i dont like injustice and hate,so i feel i have to defend her since none else seems willing to doi it.She may not be perfect and surely has done some wrong choices,but she doesnt deserve all the hate that she usually gets.

By the end of the series I didn't hate Lana so much anymore but I did hate how Clark regressed around her.  But as I said then and will say still now, I still found her and Clark's love story far more believable and earned than anything that happened between Clark and Lois.  I may have always felt Clark and Lana were more in love with the idea of each other than the reality, but at least I thought they really in the moment believed it.  Lois and Clark, I never really ever believed anything past a sibling like affection and tolerance.  Anything else was just lightswitched into existence out of no where.  So I agree that it is a shame that more people remember their earlier issues with Lana and not the bigger more lasting problem that was Lois on the show.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

So I agree that it is a shame that more people remember their earlier issues with Lana and not the bigger more lasting problem that was Lois on the show.  

For the record, I loathe and detest both Lana and Lois of this show equally.  Both have done things to earn my dislike and no matter how many times I rewatch, my mind is never changed.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Lana did not goes to "remake" herself for clark,she do it for herself.She even says to clark that in the first place she didnt thought they could be together,she didnt want to be a distraction in his life.Thats her thought when she came back for the wedding.Then when clark says the world doesnt have to come first,what do we need ecc ecc. she realize that maybe she can stay with clark without being a distraction.Then she gets the suit,and since she cant be hurt and its clark equal,he doesnt have to worry about her.She was somehow ready to sacrifice her love for clark in order to give him to the world(if im not wrong the same thing happens in the comics).

Lana left because she thought she was holding Clark back.  She thought that who she was as she was wasn't someone that could be with Clark.  She then set out to become a stronger person.  I remember that her training was so that she wouldn't be a weakness or a liability anymore.  That was about Clark.  It was also I remember about eventually being able to handle the power that came with taking over the suit.  She might not have intended at the time when she showed up for Chloe's wedding to restart her relationship with Clark, but she still thought that the changes she'd made to herself made them more compatible.  

The very thought that she too thought that as she had been meant she and Clark couldn't work, IMO was proof of why they wouldn't.   

The idea that she has to give him up for the greater good of the world sadly reminds me of Lois thinking that Clark having a relationship was just getting in the way of him saving the world.  It kills me that only Chloe ever understood on her own what Clark needed.  Both Lois and Lana had to have it explained to them.  Which is why I think both were wrong for Clark, lol.  

That said, Clark f'ed up enough with Chloe that before I'd have put him with her at the end of the show, he'd have needed to go be by himsself and think about all that he'd done wrong.    

Better yet, rewind and not make the same stupid choices in the first place.  But that's what fan fic is for.  :)

[Sirious Dude]

On 17/12/2016 at 11:48 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I just said in the above quote that he manipulated the situations and outcomes, but it was never done only to play puppet master.  It was done to make her fall in love with him and stay with him because he was in love with her.  He didn't just play puppet master for the thrill of it.  Like I said earlier in the same post, I'd only classify his manipulations as nothing to do with seduction if he hadn't also been in love with her.  He didn't want her to fall in love with him so he could steal a fortune or trick her into letting him access missile codes.  He wanted her to love him like he loved her.  So all his schemes and tricks and manipulations, while all very wrong, still fall under IMO the heading of Lex trying to seduce Lana.  He wasn't trying to con her for some other reason.  

But love is a reason as well, he manipulated her to love him, he didnt seduced her to love him. There is a little but substantial difference.Lex wasnt really in  love with lana,he was obsessed with her probably due to his obsession with clark and his life.On lex admition he always wanted all clark had,and lana was the only thing he could actually steal from clark.As lana said,he is not able to love...if he really was in love with lana would have not put her in through so much pain.Like clark did,in order to prevent her to be hurt he let her go.Thats what u do if u really love someone,lex behaviour prove that he wasnt really in love with her but just wanted her,physically by his side.

One of the reasons i deeply hate lex,besides michael rosenbaum monstrous and disturbing face,is cause he ruined lana.She was the best character sweet honest and nice,then while she was with lex became a snoob bitch with bad attitude even towards friends, due to lex alienations.After lex ,she became dishonest manipulative and cold.Luckly going on with season 7 and in season 8 she regain her inner strengh and pureness. But still i always get cancer watching late season 5 and most of season 6.When they kiss i swear i almost throw up.Disgusting. I like season 6 but its one of the hardest to watch for me, not just cause lana is with lex,but for what he does to her,he deviate her,even before the pregnancy,he changed her and i dislike that kind of lana. 

At least tho thanks to this relationship none can say lana is shallow,i mean if she was shallow why would she stay with lex?He sure isnt good looking...he actually is bad looking.Extremly ugly.I wonder indeed beside the fact she didnt realize what shit man he was,how could she anyways stay with someone that horrific.Ok lana doesnt thinkg about the appareance,but a little bit everyone cares,she is just too beautiful for him,even if he was the best man on the world.Im sorry if i emphatize this,but i REALLY cant stand MR face,especially since season 5.

On 17/12/2016 at 11:48 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Lex hid dark stuff from Lana, but his personality, his lifestyle, his likes and dislikes, those he didn't hide.  He wasn't pretending to be someone else, he was hiding aspects of who he was.  Yes he was afraid when Lana found out about some of his projects and how far he was willing to go that she would leave him, but that doesn't mean that she didn't like the rest of who he really was as well.  Those everyday natural parts of him (and they count too) are what she liked.  The lifestyle, his knowledge, his personality, they all make up who Lex is as well.  We will have to agree to disagree.

He was actually pretending to be someone else.What lana sees of lex,is not a side of him,is a facade.Is the mask of the perfect man,cause he knew what lana wants.But already when she moves in with him,he test her loyalty and then he stop to be honest with her,cause he now have total controll over her life and know she trust him.Lana even said once she felt she need an excuse to go talk with chloe.This is not random,the writers want the most carefull viewers notice the first sign of lex influence and controll.

Those natural parts of him? Like he was natural talking about the baby? He was not natural,around lana he had a totally different personality that he had with others,and he has that JUST with lana.Most of the time she kinda didnt like lex,but then she remember how "honest" he was with her.Episode static of season 6,she doesnt seems to like that life style and is clearly unhappy and doubtfull,dont seems to like that at all but then lex is kidnapped and she feel the dependence and remember how honest he has been with her and why she loves him (LOL).When she find out to be pregnant,she was miserable at the dinner with lex,she obviously didnt like that.Neither in the 3d episode she seems to like lex life style,neither in the second episode she seems to like the security cameras and so how lex lives.Its more and likely she is forced to accept it,but she complain about it.The only thing she "loved" about lex was his honesty with her.And we all know the truth about that, so ...

Just think at clark,he is "clark like" with everyone,he is always good and honest even with people he doesnt know.Lex treats all the people badly and with lana is a total different person as with them,but we see some time he slips and she has glimse of his TRUE(true,not hidden cause what lana sees remember is not a side of lex,is an act,a script) nature. He is not the good mannered charming guy lana thinks he is.He fakes that,is not a part of him.

Just look at this deleted scene,it explains a lot.Lex says that he helped for chloe,not for lana.We know thats a lie,cause when lana as a vampire ( lol ) bites chloe,when clark ask help,lex doesnt show not even a little concern for chloe,and was going to play dumb and avoid clark questions.He then decide to help when clark tell him lana is infected too.He even says he s not the villain,but at that very point he already is.He tortured AC,experimented on Victor stone,he was spreading seeds of discord between lana and clark.MANIPULATION,is a thing dude i dont talk cause i like to,i study psychology and i can assure u lana has been fooled,lex totally manipulated her,thats why only thing i blame her is to be naive,but its more cause she is good and honest and lex is so bastard he get advantage of that and clark secrecy. The more i watch it the more details i get of how lex brainwahsed lana. Like that dude said in that episode of season 6 when lana is followed by the photographer,lex infected lana with his behaviour and ruined her. I have honeslty been very happy that MR left in season 8,and that finally lex die.I hate that kind of people.

Extreme prove of lex manipulation:episode hydro.In the morning lex takes breakfast to lana,as a act of kindness,and gently read her the newspaper,but its in reality to manipulate her.He did indeed read the newspaper emphatizing clark and that she is on hold,to make her feel guilty.Guilty feelings is the easiset way to manipulate someone,when they feel sorry like lana do they are instantly submitted.Lex is evil,pure cancer.Thats how their relationship works,lana has doubt and lex manipulate her out of those doubt,everytime.Thats not seduction and sure its not right,its pure manipulation. I really like tho how clark for once has the guts to make feel lex pathethic as he is marking the fact that lana is holding so much. At the end of the episode lana was clearly not going to say yes to lex,but after another manipulative speech she give up...the story of their false relationship.Its not fair clark had to give up lana,wich costed the life of his father,and then lex enjoys it.Every moment spent with lex and that "yes ill marry u" are stolen.Season 6 make me give up to my dark side and costantly hope someone kills lex,or let him die badly or somehow he gets the heel out of smallville.

On 17/12/2016 at 11:48 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Again, we'll have to agree to disagree about what she learned in those five years.

In cyborg lana defend lex with victor saying he has done bad things in the past but he is changed now,then we later know he is literally the man behind victor experiment.Lex played lana,convinced her he was good just wanted to help but people dont understand him and clark betrayed him,and then he convince lana clark betrayed her too and get closer.To point that lana is unaware of lex involvement with victor,with ac,with the time the meteor freak kept in hostage clark parents and lana.Clark dont tell her this thing.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[BkWurm1]

56 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

But love is a reason as well, he manipulated her to love him, he didnt seduced her to love him.

I'm going to assume we have a language difference that prevents us from sharing the same understanding of what seduction means and covers and agree to disagree on if Lex actually loved Lana or not and just move on from that topic.  

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

At least tho thanks to this relationship none can say lana is shallow,i mean if she was shallow why would she stay with lex?He sure isnt good looking...he actually is bad looking.Extremly ugly.

Be prepared to be shocked but an awful lot of people found him better looking and more sexy than Welling.  I wouldn't go that far but yeah, bald didn't keep MR from being a good looking guy and the darkness in his character brought out a very sexy swagger.  Plus he was smart and I always find that hot.  So I can't assume that Lana ever found him ugly either, at least not as far as appearance went.  

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

He was actually pretending to be someone else.What lana sees of lex,is not a side of him,is a facade.Is the mask of the perfect man,cause he knew what lana wants.But already when she moves in with him,he test her loyalty and then he stop to be honest with her,cause he now have total controll over her life and know she trust him.Lana even said once she felt she need an excuse to go talk with chloe.This is not random,the writers want the most carefull viewers notice the first sign of lex influence and controll.

Again, agree to disagree about how much Lex showed of his true self and how much was a mask.  

As for Lana saying she felt she needed an excuse to go talk with Chloe, that wasn't about Lex.  That was Lana feeling that Chloe wouldn't want to talk to her unless she had a good reason to be there since Lana had IMO been a crap friend.  Note that Chloe says "excuse accepted".  It wasn't about making up an excuse to Lex to justify her going to see her friend, it was about Lana coming up with an excuse to see Chloe because at that point their relationship had not been that one of friendship.  So she needed something besides wanting to just talk a friend.  

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

Those natural parts of him? Like he was natural talking about the baby? He was not natural,around lana he had a totally different personality that he had with others

In Static we saw his natural reaction when no one else could so I have no reason to think he was faking it.  In fact, it's the reason why I'm sure the "fake" baby storyline was retconned.  Lex thought he was going to be a day and he was wildly happy.  I think the original storyline was going to be him trying to figure out a way to get the real baby to the clone so that only the clone would be at risk during birth or something like that but yeah, we in the audience saw Lex's genuine reaction and it matched the one he shared with Lana.  

As for acting differently around Lana, people do tend to be nicer to the people they love than other people.  That's not so weird and what we saw with Lana matched up with how Lex acted when he and Clark were friends.  

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

The only thing she "loved" about lex was his honesty with her.And we all know the truth about that, so ..

And his money and his connections and his power and what they could do with them whether making a positive difference or having her own personal minions to threaten.  

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

Just think at clark,he is "clark like" with everyone,he is always good and honest even with people he doesnt know.Lex treats all the people badly

I just fundamentally disagree with this premise. Lex doesn't treat everyone badly.  Clark does not treat everyone well and he RARELY is honest.  

Part of our basic disagreement about who Lex is and why he does what he does, is that I am positive Lex isn't lying when he tells Lana he's not what people say he is or when he say people don't understand.  Lex thinks he is the hero.  He sometimes does "questionable" things but he thinks it's for the greater good.  He tried to stop Clark because he thought he was saving the world.  

I'm not trying to say that Lex is a good guy or even that he didn't cross over into being an evil guy, but he's not the cold calculating one dimensional character you see him as. People liked to say that he didn't know what love was but that was in regards to how he showed it, not if he felt it.

 He was messed up but he wan't without emotions.  Wanting his father's love and approval and losing his mother and his brother and being blamed for Julian's death shaped his life.  He craved a true friendship and real love but he never learned how and even when I don't think Lex really had done anything wrong, he got his love and friendship handed back, like with Helen.  Even Clark.

 Clark had secrets that he didn't want to get out so he got really angry when Lex started digging into them but really, why does Clark automatically get to keep his secret at the expense of everyone else's life? People's natural curiosity over things that are happening to them doesn't make them evil. Clark didn't get upset that Lex was researching him, he was upset because Lex might find out the truth, his big secret, but he wasn't honest about it, he instead pretended that he was offended that his privacy had been invaded.

And when Lex was trying to get months of his life back, months that Lionel stole from him because Lex found out that he'd killed his parents, Clark was absolutely no better than Lionel in wanting to protect his secret at the expense of  Lex's life.  What Clark did was more of a betrayal than Lex looking into the strange things in his life.  Again, not excusing Lex for the bad he did but I'm not excusing Clark either.  Clark's friendship could have changed the course of Lex's life but Clark turned against him over protecting his secret AND Clark's jealousy over Lex in Lana's life.  It's wasn't Lex's fault that he stepped in when Clark once again made promises he didn't keep but Clark threw away his friendship with Lex over Lana and then through away his life cause he threw a hissy fit and decided to go into the wall with "Kara".  

Like I said, Clark was not a good friend to Lex.  He's no saint either.  

[Sirious Dude]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I'm going to assume we have a language difference that prevents us from sharing the same understanding of what seduction means and covers and agree to disagree on if Lex actually loved Lana or not and just move on from that topic.

Well let me just say my last words about it:

Seduction comes from the latin sedŭcere, formed by se- ("apart, away") and ducere ( "lead, draw") and means "to lead forth, attracting to himself". Seduction usually means express our self to attract a person of opposite sex. Our self tho, a real seducer doesnt fake to be someone else,usually people good in seduction are confident and self conscious, and they express what they really are.Thats what attract the opposite sex. First rule of seduction is to be our self and not deceive faking. If u fake then it became manipulation.

Manipulate means to use influence aimed to change the perception and behavior of others using schemes and devious and deceptive methods.Manipulate means change the reality to bring someone to believe what u say o what u want. Lex lay in manipulation category,and much earlier the fake pregnanacy.If u cant see that i cant obviously force u to open ur eyes to it.But its there.Trust me.

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Again, agree to disagree about how much Lex showed of his true self and how much was a mask.  

As for Lana saying she felt she needed an excuse to go talk with Chloe, that wasn't about Lex.  That was Lana feeling that Chloe wouldn't want to talk to her unless she had a good reason to be there since Lana had IMO been a crap friend.  Note that Chloe says "excuse accepted".  It wasn't about making up an excuse to Lex to justify her going to see her friend, it was about Lana coming up with an excuse to see Chloe because at that point their relationship had not been that one of friendship.  So she needed something besides wanting to just talk a friend.  

U sure? Cause later on happens something like that and chloe points out that maybe lana didnt leave all the people behind,but maybe she was forced to.Thats actually one thing i like about chloe,always gets the thing right and she says that clearly.

 

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Be prepared to be shocked but an awful lot of people found him better looking and more sexy than Welling.  I wouldn't go that far but yeah, bald didn't keep MR from being a good looking guy and the darkness in his character brought out a very sexy swagger.  Plus he was smart and I always find that hot.  So I can't assume that Lana ever found him ugly either, at least not as far as appearance went.  

Im not talking in that way,im a man and i honestly cant judge if another man is sexy,i think thats even something objective for girls.What i mean is the actually appareance,MR especially from season 6 is ugly:his skin sucks,his face has a strange and too round shape,his mouth seems the dehydrated ass hole of a dog,he has wrinkles and he has the alcholic belly.Thats does not look good,he actually makes him more pathethic and loser(as lex).Like a man i objectivly say he is damn ugly and in a disturbing way,when hes on screen i feel like someone is punching me in the eyes,TW looks far way better he is in shape,have nice clear skin,nice hair.I actually laughed pretty badly anytime lana says something like "i want to see his face again" or "the most handsome groom" talking about lex.

If people found themself attracted to the bald,pathethic and evil guy who happens to be rich...good for them.But i have some pretty strong value and maybe thats why i despise so much lex.

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

In Static we saw his natural reaction when no one else could so I have no reason to think he was faking it.  In fact, it's the reason why I'm sure the "fake" baby storyline was retconned.  Lex thought he was going to be a day and he was wildly happy.  I think the original storyline was going to be him trying to figure out a way to get the real baby to the clone so that only the clone would be at risk during birth or something like that but yeah, we in the audience saw Lex's genuine reaction and it matched the one he shared with Lana.  

As for acting differently around Lana, people do tend to be nicer to the people they love than other people.  That's not so weird and what we saw with Lana matched up with how Lex acted when he and Clark were friends.  

Genuine reaction?Lol what? His face was more like "oh right,the baby",but id more think of that as unreadable,u cant really guess what hes thinking but is clear not "wildy happy",not when none can see him.  He has that reaction with lana later.Anyways im sure it was not fake plot,im sure it was programmed to be like that,even the way lex propose right after discovering the pregnanacy?Seems like he was waiting for her to tell him.His calm waiting for lana response?The way he tells clark he is sure of lana positive answer?His face when lana say yes?Those are all signs of his over confidence,he was so sure cause he actually programmed it.When lana says yes, he is not happy,is like "it worked" ,they embrace and he doesnt even close eyes,thats the thing u have to carefully watch at.

And all this much earlier that the first hints about this fake pregnancy were gave to us.Oh my LOL thats a really positive and optimistic speculation right there,I think u want to see lex better than he actually is....The whole pregnancy plot is totally in line with the lex character,is something he would totally do looking at his past behaviour to get lana.He wouldnt need the clone thing to save lana too,since in this reality unlike lexmas he has the money and the power.The clone was shown just in the ep 21,we have the first hinst of lana unusal pregnancy in ep 13,and project ares came out just in ep 19.How do u explain that?Remeber lex never do anything unless he's sure to suceed,either cause he planned the moves to do or cause he can physically over power his victim...and so he did with the proposal.He is calculating and he is evil,pure evil.Just that.There is no good in him,it never has been,cause all his choices were lead by selfish reasons,by his evil side,the good one was so submitted it didnt exist.Gaining trust or influence is a selfish reason too.But as u said we probably wont come to an agreement,i cant open ur eyes unless u want to.

Im sorry i must have expressed my self wrong,what i meant is that when he is with lana he is nicer.Not with lana tho,with other people he is a different person with her around,to keep the mask of the good misunedrstood man... like in Reunion,he keep the calm and he is polite with his "old friends".Even with oliver,when they met at the costume party,he make fun of lex but he polite exuceses him self.Then when lana is not with him,he show his real face,his moods totally change,he threaten oliver and he punch him cause he blamed him for what did to duncan.With dr groll talking about the black box,he is nice and calm...but we know that with his employees or anyone working for him he actually is rude,cold and aggressive.

And about clark,lex admits he kept that friendship for some sort of envy,and that was an act too especially in season 5,he kept indeed to be nice with clark till he steal lana from him.After lex managed to steal lana,he totally change to clark(even tho he says to lana he cares about him),he say hes not welcome at his the mansion anymore,and he treat him really bad.He clearly made the friend with clark to keep lana trusting him,since if he treated clark as bad as he do in season 6,lana would cut their friendship and he would lose her.Lex says in season 5 that he want to find some common ground ,after he started a relationship with lana,but its more and likely that he wanted to do what he admits he want clark at his wedding for:to show him what he "lost".Lex,over confident thanks to the kryptonian ability,express his real inner self in the season 5 finale,in the barn.Thats who lex really is,an envious traitor who has the guts to attack clark just when he s sure to win since he now has power.He was like that even in season one,when he look at the kents,when he is dishonest on things that really matters like in nicodemus.Open ur mind my friend,open it and u will see things clearly.

 

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And his money and his connections and his power and what they could do with them whether making a positive difference or having her own personal minions to threaten.

Oh right...lana,the real villain of the story...thats how u described her,even tho she actually is the real HERO of the story.She wasnt interseted in those things,like she says in the scene above,honesty.Thats all.Thast why she had the little interset in him,cause he was good and honest and trusted her.None of that really matters to lana,but onbviously if she is with a rich man she live like a rich woman... she later realize of the power and wants to use it for GOOD.Own ersonal minions to theraten?Like who?Dr groll? We know that the whole thing was planned by lex and he gave a scripit to lionel to test lana,to initiate her to those "luthor like" behaviour.To see how loyal and how far she could go.With of her own personal minions ,she was kind,even with the one later she realize was her stalker,she smiles,she is sweet and polite.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[BkWurm1]

22 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

well let me just say my last words about it:

Seduction comes from the latin sedŭcere, formed by se- ("apart, away") and ducere ( "lead, draw") and means "to lead forth, attracting to himself". Seduction usually means express our self to attract a person of opposite sex. Our self tho, a real seducer doesnt fake to be someone else,usually people good in seduction are confident and self conscious, and they express what they really are.Thats what attract the opposite sex. First rule of seduction is to be our self and not deceive faking. If u fake then it became manipulation.

Manipulate means to use influence aimed to change the perception and behavior of others using schemes and devious and deceptive methods.Manipulate means change the reality to bring someone to believe what u say o what u want. Lex lay in manipulation category,and much earlier the fake pregnanacy.If u cant see that i cant obviously force u to open ur eyes to it.But its there.Trust me.

se·duce

səˈd(y)o͞os/

verb

attract (someone) to a belief or into a course of action that is inadvisable or foolhardy.

"they should not be seduced into thinking that their success ruled out the possibility of a relapse"

synonyms:attract, allure, lure, tempt, entice, beguile, inveigle, maneuver

"she was seduced by the smell of coffee"

entice into sexual activity.

synonyms:persuade to have sex; More

attract powerfully.

None of what you say about it being real and not faked is actually a part of the definition of seduction. I will accept that is your personal definition, I just don't accept it as the broadly meaning.  To be seduced just means tempted into doing something.  There is no restriction on how it is done or requiring the seducer to be sincere or real.  

22 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

U sure? Cause later on happens something like that and chloe points out that maybe lana didnt leave all the people behind,but maybe she was forced to.Thats actually one thing i like about chloe,always gets the thing right and she says that clearly.

Positive.  Chloe pointing out that Lex's influence in Lana's life may have encouraged her to move away from her friends is a separate issue. The instance of Lana needing the excuse to talk to Chloe had nothing to do with telling Lex what she was doing.  

22 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

Im not talking in that way,im a man and i honestly cant judge if another man is sexy,i think thats even something objective for girls.What i mean is the actually appareance,MR especially from season 6 is ugly:his skin sucks,his face has a strange and too round shape,his mouth seems the dehydrated ass hole of a dog,he has wrinkles and he has the alcholic belly.Thats does not look good,he actually makes him more pathethic and loser(as lex).Like a man i objectivly say he is damn ugly and in a disturbing way,when hes on screen i feel like someone is punching me in the eyes,TW looks far way better he is in shape,have nice clear skin,nice hair.I actually laughed pretty badly anytime lana says something like "i want to see his face again" or "the most handsome groom" talking about lex.

If people found themself attracted to the bald,pathethic and evil guy who happens to be rich...good for them.But i have some pretty strong value and maybe thats why i despise so much lex.

Nothing to do with power or money or values.  It's fiction.  I just happen to think Michael Rosenbaum is a good looking guy and really didn't see anything that you described during the sixth season.  He's not the same kind of good looking as Welling, but still good looking by general standards.  To each their own though.  

  

 

 

 

 

Quote

Genuine reaction?Lol what? His face was more like "oh right,the baby",but id more think of that as unreadable,u cant really guess what hes thinking but is clear not "wildy happy",not when none can see him.

  I know what I saw.  He looked like he'd been given all his dreams.  So I guess agree to STRONGLY disagree.

 

Quote

they embrace and he doesnt even close eyes,thats the thing u have to carefully watch at.

Good to know.  

29 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

He wouldnt need the clone thing to save lana too,since in this reality unlike lexmas he has the money and the power.The clone was shown just in the ep 21,we have the first hinst of lana unusal pregnancy in ep 13,and project ares came out just in ep 19.How do u explain that?Remeber lex never do anything unless he's sure to suceed,either cause he planned the moves to do or cause he can physically over power his victim...

That just plain not true.  He constantly set up plans and research that failed or didn't pan out.  He did plenty of projects not knowing how they'd end.  

I explain not finding out about the clone or Project Ares until later as the show slowly unfolding it's story.  And the clone would be Lex just taking it to the next level.  Sure, he'd have the money and the resources for the best doctors, but why take the risk?  You just said he likes to control the outcome, clone Lana taking the pregnancy risk would be Lex controling the outcome.  So it's not so far fetched.  And again, what else is he going to do with an army of Lana clones?  Deploy their Lana Fu skills to take over the world? 

39 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

There is no good in him,it never has been,cause all his choices were lead by selfish reasons,by his evil side,the good one was so submitted it didnt exist.Gaining trust or influence is a selfish reason too.But as u said we probably wont come to an agreement,i cant open ur eyes unless u want to.

Passive aggressive much?

 You can have your personal opinion that there was no good in Lex, but even Clark when he went into Lex's head to find out where Kara was was forced to face the truth about there actually being good inside of him. He vowed to fight for that part of him in the future.  I just wish he actually had.   And Connor is a Lex clone and he's Superboy, so yeah, there is good in Lex.  Not enough to win out in the circumstances, but it's not so black or white.   

44 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

After lex managed to steal lana,he totally change to clark(even tho he says to lana he cares about him),he say hes not welcome at his the mansion anymore,and he treat him really bad

Cause Clark crashing his engagement party and making a scene, mocking and humiliating Lex's guests (and Clark's friends and mother) before kidnapping Lex's bride to be wasn't a good reason?  Again, Lex is a bad guy but Clark gives him good reason to not be welcome at the manor.  

48 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

Lex says in season 5 that he want to find some common ground ,after he started a relationship with lana,but its more and likely that he wanted to do what he admits he want clark at his wedding for:to show him what he "lost".Lex,over confident thanks to the kryptonian ability,express his real inner self in the season 5 finale,in the barn.Thats who lex really is,an envious traitor who has the guts to attack clark just when he s sure to win since he now has power.He was like that even in season one,when he look at the kents,when he is dishonest on things that really matters like in nicodemus.Open ur mind my friend,open it and u will see things clearly.

You start the paragraph taking what Lex said and saying that you choose not to believe or accept what the show presents as evidence and then ignore any of the crap that went down between season 5 and 6 that pushed Lex to taunt Clark, like that kidnapping I mentioned earlier.  

And at the end of season five Lana tells Lex that Clark and Chloe are plotting to kill him.  And later, it's not Lex, its ZOD!  

You seem to think I don't know that Lex does bad stuff.  I don't need my mind opened (it sounds like you are trying to push acid on me, lol).  I know what he's done and I know he's a bad guy, but he's not without nuance or reasons or emotions and no, he did not start out as evil.  It was his journey, just like Clark didn't start out as much of a hero.  He leaned more on whiny emo moper.  He grew into the hero he became like Lex grew into the villain.  

54 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

even tho she actually is the real HERO of the story.

Oh boy oh boy do I agree to disagree.

 

55 minutes ago, Sirious Dude said:

She wasnt interseted in those things,like she says in the scene above,honesty.

Lana's version of people being honest with her far too often actually translated as Lana wanting to selfishly know stuff just because.  Or to test them.  Or for them to prove something.  And she wasn't a big believer in turn about being fair play.   Who ended up with more secreths and lieths than the pink one?  The sanctimonious little twit.  Not worth my time discussing anymore.

Agree to disagree.  

[Sirious Dude]

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

None of what you say about it being real and not faked is actually a part of the definition of seduction. I will accept that is your personal definition, I just don't accept it as the broadly meaning.  To be seduced just means tempted into doing something.  There is no restriction on how it is done or requiring the seducer to be sincere or real.  

I have a dictionary too,thanks. Im not talking about the definition my friend,im talking about the practice. Make sure to at least understand what i say before answer back. The restrictions,the sincerity ,the honesty is what difference seduction and manipulation. How many other time i have to say that?

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Positive.  Chloe pointing out that Lex's influence in Lana's life may have encouraged her to move away from her friends is a separate issue. The instance of Lana needing the excuse to talk to Chloe had nothing to do with telling Lex what she was doing.

The mistery of subconscious...

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Nothing to do with power or money or values.  It's fiction.  I just happen to think Michael Rosenbaum is a good looking guy and really didn't see anything that you described during the sixth season.  He's not the same kind of good looking as Welling, but still good looking by general standards.  To each their own though.  

Of course,of course...maybe i just have a more critic eye.

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I know what I saw.  He looked like he'd been given all his dreams.  So I guess agree to STRONGLY disagree.

I did my research,there is none else that think thats a retcon,cause its so clear that lex planned it.I ll say it again,someone like lex,who likes to controll to be sure to get what he wants...the confidence he says to clark he knows the answer,conferm what the confidence in waiting for weeks hints.He is so sure that it make people question if someone like him did actually made possible all by himself to be that sure.I had suspicious about the pregnancy since lex said to clark he was sure lana was gonna say yes.Remember too that lex is a good actor,he faked with lana for months,and i dont know what u saw,but that speculation about the clone is just higly improbable.

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

they embrace and he doesnt even close eyes,thats the thing u have to carefully watch at.

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Good to know.

Body language,ever heard of that? Is a very important factor in the acting,is what make u really believe a scene is real.Is what make u understand scenes where there are no lines.Is what differentiate reading a line and acting.Writers give specific details about the body language in the script,and if they do so is because they want to show us something.Remember writers aint stupid,if there is something unusual is because they want it to be like that.But obviously not everyone can notice things they dont pay attention to.

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

That just plain not true.  He constantly set up plans and research that failed or didn't pan out.  He did plenty of projects not knowing how they'd end.  

I explain not finding out about the clone or Project Ares until later as the show slowly unfolding it's story.  And the clone would be Lex just taking it to the next level.  Sure, he'd have the money and the resources for the best doctors, but why take the risk?  You just said he likes to control the outcome, clone Lana taking the pregnancy risk would be Lex controling the outcome.  So it's not so far fetched.  And again, what else is he going to do with an army of Lana clones?  Deploy their Lana Fu skills to take over the world? 

I could actually answer seriously about this,but i feel its really useless spend time talking about something doesnt exist on the show.

Just one thing about the lana-clone: He was scared of lana leaving him,he had that paranoia.He just made sure to still have her.He has one,and i let u figure what he wanted that for.But again lex is a pathethic loser.He just happens to be rich,nothing more.

On 24/12/2016 at 8:18 PM, Sirious Dude said:

There is no good in him,it never has been,cause all his choices were lead by selfish reasons,by his evil side,the good one was so submitted it didnt exist.

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

 You can have your personal opinion that there was no good in Lex, but even Clark when he went into Lex's head to find out where Kara was was forced to face the truth about there actually being good inside of him. He vowed to fight for that part of him in the future.  I just wish he actually had.   And Connor is a Lex clone and he's Superboy, so yeah, there is good in Lex.  Not enough to win out in the circumstances, but it's not so black or white.   

What i meant is that even if he has that good side,he never listen to him,so its like it didnt exist because he always consciously choose to dont listen to that side,that probably make him even more evil from my pov.

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Cause Clark crashing his engagement party and making a scene, mocking and humiliating Lex's guests (and Clark's friends and mother) before kidnapping Lex's bride to be wasn't a good reason?  Again, Lex is a bad guy but Clark gives him good reason to not be welcome at the manor.

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

You start the paragraph taking what Lex said and saying that you choose not to believe or accept what the show presents as evidence and then ignore any of the crap that went down between season 5 and 6 that pushed Lex to taunt Clark, like that kidnapping I mentioned earlier.  

And at the end of season five Lana tells Lex that Clark and Chloe are plotting to kill him.  And later, it's not Lex, its ZOD!  

You seem to think I don't know that Lex does bad stuff.  I don't need my mind opened (it sounds like you are trying to push acid on me, lol).  I know what he's done and I know he's a bad guy, but he's not without nuance or reasons or emotions and no, he did not start out as evil.  It was his journey, just like Clark didn't start out as much of a hero.  He leaned more on whiny emo moper.  He grew into the hero he became like Lex grew into the villain.  

Kal,but from lex pov is clark,crashing the party happens 10 ep after lex kick him out.Yeah maybe clark often went to lex to accuse him of something,but most of the time he was right.What i mean tho is that doesnt seem to bother lex during season 5,but then after lana moved in at the mansion,it does.Reed between the lines.A very little is left to chance during the writing,maybe there are plots-hole and bad writing,but that is always about the storyline ,how the story goes trough the seasons.Those kind of details are made on purpose for the single ep,and are there to be notice.

Yeah lana tells lex that,but when he talk in the barn with clark,that is lex,its not zod yet.And id like to point that lex dont remember any of this,so cant say he kick clark out for that.What happened in the barn is lex that overwhelmed by his new power takes the guts to face clark,and he was going to kill him.HE ATTACKED FIRST,when clark was trying to help,he was perfectly aware that clark wouldnt have killed him and wouldnt attack neither.

Exactly,clark wasnt that hero neither,but already had the heroism inside and he showed it.Same for lex he had the villan inside,and he showed it.He is a different person from how he was at metropolis,many people said that.He was trying to be someone he was not,to impress clark,the kents,lana.I dont say he was already that evil from the beginning,im saying that thou it already was a bad guy,he was like season 5-6-7 lionel,antihero.But the fact that he then became evil,makes us think that was just an act.Probably cause of clark,indeed in the timeline clark never landed to earth,lex is already president and devoted to his dark side since a very very long time,cause he didnt get clarks influence.

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Oh boy oh boy do I agree to disagree.

None has made as many sacrifice,none has suffered or forgive as much as lana.NONE.And eventually she actually became a real hero,but she was already to me.There wouldnt be any superman or neither the blur without lana.She made clark that man,teaching him meaning of love,to fight for what he wants,pushing him to improve himself,believing in him since they were 14.

 

On 24/12/2016 at 9:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana's version of people being honest with her far too often actually translated as Lana wanting to selfishly know stuff just because.  Or to test them.  Or for them to prove something.  And she wasn't a big believer in turn about being fair play.   Who ended up with more secreths and lieths than the pink one?  The sanctimonious little twit.  Not worth my time discussing anymore.

Agree to disagree.

Oh man seems we get hate even on Christmas this year LOL.

I dont believe that,she never wanted to know stuff.She wanted clark to open up,she wanted to be part of the life of the man she loved.Isnt that normal in a relationship?If u try to make out with ur boyfriend,and he just avoid and use lame excuses,wouldnt u at that point want to know whats going on?When would she wasnt return the honesty?When after a traumatic relationship she gets deviated and obsessed about lex?U know for that some people need therapy?This is sirious,human mind is fragile and lex totally crashed lana's.

She trusted a man,thinking he was a good man,that he was honest and that he loved her,she turn against people that tried to warn her about him.Then she finds that all was a big lie,everything people said was true,she "gave herself" to the villain,she spent months in pain,sadness and TERROR.Can u just imagine how emotionally and psychologically destructive could be when she realized about the fake pregnancy?If u are a girl,i think u cant understand what it would means,she felt really,REALLY,violated.That could change the more strong woman in the world.Eventually tho she regain her mental balance.

About the ending up with more secrets,i guess u refer to the prometeus skin.She knew clark would never ever go after that,it would more and likely wait to lex with the suit full of K to knock his door.She kept that a secret even cause he would have tried to stop her yeah,but wasnt a bad move,was to protect clark,basically from himself.Think about how the only 2 people that REALLY take lex problem seriously are oliver and lana.They really seen lex face.Lana knew why lex wanted the suit,to face clark,and we later know that it was actually created to match clark.If lana wouldnt steal it,lex would had put it on.She couldnt even destroy it,cause she didnt knew where it was,the lab was set in her place.She could trick dr groll to set the lab and bring the skin and then destroy it,but at that very point would be a waste.Dr groll was ready to put it on lana,why destroy it?So even if she said that to clark either would have been a waste or clark stopping her from even doing something.

I think this scene really says a lot.

Merry Christmas my friend.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Sirious Dude

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Sirious Dude said:

I have a dictionary too,thanks. Im not talking about the definition my friend,im talking about the practice. Make sure to at least understand what i say before answer back. The restrictions,the sincerity ,the honesty is what difference seduction and manipulation. How many other time i have to say that?

And  just because you say it (over and over and over) doesn't make it any more a fact.

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Reed between the lines.

The issue remains interpretation.  (And spelling.)  

3 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

None has made as many sacrifice,none has suffered or forgive as much as lana.NONE.And eventually she actually became a real hero,but she was already to me.There wouldnt be any superman or neither the blur without lana.She made clark that man,teaching him meaning of love,to fight for what he wants,pushing him to improve himself,believing in him since they were 14.

I won't argue the status of Lana as a hero or what she suffered.  

I will argue that Clark and the Blur and Superman would have been just fine - likely better IMO - without having ever known Lana.  Personally I think Lana was the main reason he was so backward and took so long to become a hero. She was as much his weakness as Kryptonite.  She and all she represented is what was holding him back.  

I guess having to constantly rescue her did give him a lot of chances to hone his skills but Lana wasn't the one that pushed him to improve or be a better hero.  She was a distraction and an excuse not to think beyond Smallville and she fed his worst emotions like jealousy and selfishness.  

Even when Lana FINALLY was openly part of he secret, she wasn't really part of his regular support system in saving people.  Even when she's helped or shown that she could be a help, she's not who he turns to first for information and answers or just understanding.  No one supported Clark as a hero or encouraged him more or saved him more than Chloe.  Hands down. Not even close.  No one.  

His parents supported him as a son and taught him right from wrong and shaped who he was as a man and showed him what real love looked like, and he aspired to it, but they were always more hesitant in their support of him as a hero for the world.  Always proud, but the worry is always there and the need for him to hide what he was was always there, which is why I say Chloe was his biggest supporter.

 She's the one that always from the start had seen something wonderful and special in him.  She's the one that got him involved in the first place in what was happening in Smallville.  She's the one he went to for answers.  She's the one he went to for help to understand the answers. She's the one he worked with to execute plans.  She's the one that pushed him to do more.

 Pointed out that you don't decided who gets saved. She was the one that pushed him when he was despondent over Lana not to give up, because the world was still a risk.  She encouraged him to slow down so people could see him to give them hope.  (Aka the Blur) And encouraged him to see that people getting proof wasn't so bad and than maybe he could do more out in the open. (After Jimmy got a shot of him, Clark disagreed at the time but took her advice later as Superman)

She helped him figure out and use his powers in new ways.  And cope when he didn't have them.  She also is the one that taught him as his first editor and encouraged him to keep at being a journalist and encouraged him to return.  She risked dying to save him again and again and again.  Yes, everyone took risks but she knowingly "died" in saving Lex so she could save Clark.  He sat with her for 18 hours while she was dead, not sure she'd come back. She refused to ever let him give up, on anyone, even when the risk was high.

She's the one that even saved him from himself like when she wouldn't let him kill Tess - even though she was mind whammied.  Even when she stopped him from sending Davis to the PZ, he admitted later that she'd been right, that he wouldn't have been able to live with himself.  And that she would have saved the world by stockpiling the Kryptonite weapons had he not changed the future. 

 Clark himself called her the best partner he could have had.  Checkmate called her his best asset. He told Kara she was the smartest person he knew.  Even in his zoner induced dream world she was the ONE person that still believed in him.  She brought back together and organized his entire support system (the Justice League) even when he was treating her like crap.  She pushed him to do what was right even when it was killing her to imagine a world without Clark in it.  And she personally erased her existence from the world in order to save him and the rest of the JL.  That actually marked the second time she willingly gave up her life to save him.   

If you want to talk about who the real hero of the show is, Chloe is the answer, because seriously, you take her away and none of it happens. Not the teenage hero, not the blur, not the member of the Justice Leaguer, and yeah, not even Superman since she's the one that also stopped him from PERMANENTLY losing his powers.

Lana MAYBE shaped his opinion on love (badly since, helllo - Lois!) and to a degree for a short period of time relative to the length of the show believed and supported Clark, even at her own expence, but remove her existence and Clark still is every inch the hero he becomes, plus bonus, he's no longer bogged down in petty jealous behavior. 

Lana left because she decided she was holding him back. I agree.  

Edited December 26, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Sirious Dude]

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Even when Lana FINALLY was openly part of he secret, she wasn't really part of his regular support system in saving people.  Even when she's helped or shown that she could be a help, she's not who he turns to first for information and answers or just understanding.  No one supported Clark as a hero or encouraged him more or saved him more than Chloe.  Hands down. Not even close.  No one.  

Im not going to deny that,but r just missing one BIG point...chloe knew clark secret from years,she was estabilished to be his sidekick,but lana could do that as well when its needed.Plus Lana did sacrifice even when she didnt knew anything about clark.Lana was the one that sees the hero in clark before anyone else.Chloe in the first 2 season treat clark pretty bad for jealousy,lana supports him.Shes the first to notice that "there is more than meets the eyes about clark kent".She saw  that he was "honest,people likes him and the innate sense of justice in his eyes" .Of course after chloe discover clark secret she became the sidekick,but pete was the sidekick too.Chloe just had more time to help clark,but lana for what she could helped him more than anyone.Really a lot.Lana is the one that searched in all the pawn shops of metropolis for johnathan watch.She did those things for clark,the farmboy,not the super powered alien.Everyone is able to believe in a super powered alien.Everyone can believe in superman,but how much can actually believe in clark kent?Chloe believed in superman,lana believed in clark.Im not saying chloe didnt help him,she did and a lot and she belived in him,but just when she knew the truth.There is the big difference between chloe and lana.

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I will argue that Clark and the Blur and Superman would have been just fine - likely better IMO - without having ever known Lana.  Personally I think Lana was the main reason he was so backward and took so long to become a hero. She was as much his weakness as Kryptonite.  She and all she represented is what was holding him back.  

I guess having to constantly rescue her did give him a lot of chances to hone his skills but Lana wasn't the one that pushed him to improve or be a better hero.  She was a distraction and an excuse not to think beyond Smallville and she fed his worst emotions like jealousy and selfishness.  

Clark developed new powers for lana,he pushed himself in order to save her.At the start of the show he is 14,its pretty normal that when u are 20 u still dont know what to do in ur life.But at season 8 he is like 22 and decide to change life.But as ur loved chloe stated,it wasnt lana leaving that pushed him,it was clark that grew up.And what u say,it wasnt lana's fault,it was clark that wanted to hold back a life doesnt exist anymore.And those emotions are what makes clark human,when he s not with lana he gave up his human side,like after the wedding,and everytime lana is gone,he focus on his hero duty,but he do it in a maniacal/ossessive way,not having lana reminds him he is not human.But is his human side to make clark the hero we know,remember that.

Lana decide that,but was clark that hold himself all alone.Lana could have been in the hero life too like in those season 8 ep,even befoere the suit she stays at the isis office to do the research usually chloe does.Its just clark that wanted to live a normal life.Lana is the first one that push clark to show him self to the world,in season 7.Chloe never thought about that,is lana that says about warrior angel fans "and what if they would look at you?" She also says she want to be with him,but that when the world will need him she doesnt want to hold him back.Its clark that tries to live a life isnt his.

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

She's the one that always from the start had seen something wonderful and special in him

LOL WHAT? In wich episode should this happen?Lana is the FIRST that notice something special about clark,after the tornado in season 2.NONE eccept his parents even said something like that,maybe lex but for curiosity not for support.Lana was the one that told him he couldnt hide in the barn forever,thats an encouragement too.She was the one that pushed him to open up with somebody even if not with her,she was the one that told him he couldnt press all the emotions.If clark opened up with chloe when she became a secret keeper,it was because lana pushed him to do it.

 

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Pointed out that you don't decided who gets saved. She was the one that pushed him when he was despondent over Lana not to give up, because the world was still a risk.  She encouraged him to slow down so people could see him to give them hope.  (Aka the Blur) And encouraged him to see that people getting proof wasn't so bad and than maybe he could do more out in the open. (After Jimmy got a shot of him, Clark disagreed at the time but took her advice later as Superman)

She pointed that,but was retorical,clark already knew he just had to save evryone.

AND OH MY SUPER LOL... Lana encouraged him to show him self to people in season 7 ep 5,when he didnt start his hero path yet,when she knew his secret from a few months. ONE YEAR before chloe said that,and to pint that again WHEN HE DIDNT START TO BE A HERO YET.Meaning lana encouraged the farmboy to became a hero and to show himself to people and give them hope,chloe encouraged the already hero good samaritan of metropolis to give some proof of his existence.There is BIG difference.Very big.So big im surpised we are even arguing about it.There is no comparison

14 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

If you want to talk about who the real hero of the show is, Chloe is the answer, because seriously, you take her away and none of it happens. Not the teenage hero, not the blur, not the member of the Justice Leaguer, and yeah, not even Superman since she's the one that also stopped him from PERMANENTLY losing his powers.

Lana MAYBE shaped his opinion on love (badly since, helllo - Lois!) and to a degree for a short period of time relative to the length of the show believed and supported Clark, even at her own expence, but remove her existence and Clark still is every inch the hero he becomes, plus bonus, he's no longer bogged down in petty jealous behavior. 

U know what s more funny about our argumentation?That u have to use hate and say bad things a discredit lana to prove ur point.But that just prove mine.I do not hate chloe,indeed i dont NEED to say bad things about her,i see her for the things she has done.But remove lana and u dont have anything.No clark kent,no blur,no superman.And yes,even if u remove chloe,but saying lana didnt made any differnce in clark hero life is just ridiculous and very VERY partial.

Im impartial indeed i admit chloe has her own big part cause she was involved in his hero life from years before lana,but lana has a bigger part for sure.Lana is clark engine,is what make him want to do something,and when shes gone,is LOSING lana that set clark in motion not the fact that she was holding him back,take out lana and he wouldnt do anything.Lana wasnt involved in his hero life but she was the one that actually shaped him,he became a hero saving lana and thanks to lana.

And yeah chloe was there,she helped him in the process,but so did pete and so did his parents.In the first season is pretty clear,that he had chloe for years in his life,but just when he had lana he starts to push himself.Please lets just be real at least.Im surely not saying tho that he would be the same hero without chloe,cause that would be damn false,but even saying without lana would be the same hero is very false.Im objective,the only one u could actually take out and still have superman is lois.But BOTH chloe and lana are indispensable.

And u seeing it just from chloe pov,i see it from both lana's and chloes pov.Chloe is more involved in clark life,just as was pete when he was the secret keeper,and thats all.If lana would have been involved in his life,wich was everything she wanted,she would have been his side kick as well.She would have the occasion to do those things,and im more than sure she would have done it.

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

And she personally erased her existence from the world in order to save him and the rest of the JL.  That actually marked the second time she willingly gave up her life to save him.   

Lana did that too when she faked her death to frame lex,he gave up her life so he wouldnt hurt anyone else.After of course marrying lex to protect clark.So...even? lol

 

15 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lana left because she decided she was holding him back. I agree.

I ll say again it was clark that was holding him self back,he could be with lana and be a hero as well.He could go to the daily planet and patrol in the meanwhile,doing all this while living at the farm with lana.It was clark that wanted to live HIS PARENTS LIFE,and he convinced himself that was the only way to be with someone,he see either be a hero alone or being "normal" with lana.He was still young,when he grow up he realize that both that kind of life isnt what he wants,and that anyways even if he save the world,the world doesnt have to came first,he could still have a private life.Lana decide to go cause she realize that CLARK HOLDS BACK on her in a life that its not what he is destined for.She knew that,and she questioned clark many time,but he stated that he wanted to stay at the farm with her.In the moment she realize that being with her hold back clark,she goes.Thats a pretty damn sacrifice,and thats pushing him as well.As chloe will never be able to do.

Nothing to take from chloe,i said more times she was amazing,and i really mean that,but just after she discovers clark secret.And,for me,that says it all.Lana always pushed clark even when she didnt knew about his secret,chloe just after she discovers that.And even when lana knew clark secret,she pushes him more than chloe,wich SUPPORT HIM. Cause she is daily involved from years in that life.

[Sirious Dude]

On 9/12/2016 at 6:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lana did not have amnesia.  Huge difference and if you recall, Kara listened even with her amnesia when Chloe and Lana snuck in to the Luthor Manor.  She was actually willing to listen to reason and evidence of people that she actually really didn't know.  Lana knew the people warning her about Lex.  

Look what i found...some deleted scenes explain so much that i dont understand why they cut em.Kara didnt listen to chloe and lana,she didnt trust them.She trusted jimmy and lex,and its because jimmy opens her eyes that kara starts to see lex real face.Thats why she was willing to listen to chloe and lana.If jimmy wouldnt talk to her she wouldnt trust them cause she would still be enchanted by lex.

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Im not going to deny that,but r just missing one BIG point...chloe knew clark secret from years,she was estabilished to be his sidekick,but lana could do that as well when its needed.Plus Lana did sacrifice even when she didnt knew anything about clark.Lana was the one that sees the hero in clark before anyone else.Chloe in the first 2 season treat clark pretty bad for jealousy,lana supports him.Shes the first to notice that "there is more than meets the eyes about clark kent".She saw  that he was "honest,people likes him and the innate sense of justice in his eyes" .Of course after chloe discover clark secret she became the sidekick,but pete was the sidekick too.Chloe just had more time to help clark,but lana for what she could helped him more than anyone.Really a lot.Lana is the one that searched in all the pawn shops of metropolis for johnathan watch.She did those things for clark,the farmboy,not the super powered alien.Everyone is able to believe in a super powered alien.Everyone can believe in superman,but how much can actually believe in clark kent?Chloe believed in superman,lana believed in clark.Im not saying chloe didnt help him,she did and a lot and she belived in him,but just when she knew the truth.There is the big difference between chloe and lana.

Yes there is a big difference between Chloe and Lana. Lana was very late to the party.  Chloe was a friend and partner since the first season and saw through the awkward farmboy to the great guy he was the first day they met years before.  She saw him as a hero first as Clark Kent long before she knew what he could do.  In "Obscura" season one as he rescued her when she was buried in a dark field, she cried out "I knew it was you.  It's always you."  She didn't know he had powers til mid season 4 but they'd been working to save people since she let him in on her Wall of Weird.  Even when he was powerless, she still turned to him as a hero in "Mortal" helping him rescue Lana and in "Hidden" when the town faced the risk of nukes. 

And it was Chloe that explained even in the finale that Clark even with his powers was a man first.  It was something that neither Lois or Lana seemed to get.  

Quote

Lois: There is no Chloe quip that's gonna make me change my mind. Clark can hear the world's cries for help, and he's duty-bound to answer the call. I am not gonna stand in his way. 

Chloe: He can't listen all the time, Lois. He's not God. He can't be aware of every bird or blade of grass, okay? He's a man. And sometimes he needs to not listen. He needs to rest, to love, to laugh. And when he finally does decide to take to the skies, he's gonna need you to ground him.

Her belief was in the whole man, with or without powers, but she was basically the first to believe in what he could do with those powers, the show had her says as much in season ten's "Fortune" but where as Lana didn't trust that even with his powers he could defend himself against Lionel or Lois who just assumed because he had powers he was all powerful no matter what, Chloe knew that neither was true.  And in both cases she still saw the man beyond the powers and understood that Superman was what he did, not who he was.  He was still Clark, the man.    

4 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Look what i found...some deleted scenes explain so much that i dont understand why they cut em.Kara didnt listen to chloe and lana,she didnt trust them.She trusted jimmy and lex,and its because jimmy opens her eyes that kara starts to see lex real face.Thats why she was willing to listen to chloe and lana.If jimmy wouldnt talk to her she wouldnt trust them cause she would still be enchanted by lex.

 

I don't care who she listened to, but she trusted someone she barely knew (since she'd forgotten him) and faced up to who Lex was, Lana ignored people she trusted telling her the same stuff.  And just for the record, if the scene was deleted, it doesn't actually count as having happened.  

 

6 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

AND OH MY SUPER LOL... Lana encouraged him to show him self to people in season 7 ep 5,when he didnt start his hero path yet,when she knew his secret from a few months. ONE YEAR before chloe said that,and to pint that again WHEN HE DIDNT START TO BE A HERO YET.

 I don't understand your definition of hero if you don't give him any credit as a hero until season 7.  Again, Chloe was helping him be a hero since season one.    

 

6 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

If clark opened up with chloe when she became a secret keeper,it was because lana pushed him to do it

Good grief.  Clark was confiding in Chloe over Lana since always, not because Lana pushed him to talk to someone.  Even Lana lamented over that in season three even if Chloe dismissed it saying it was because he wasn't in love with her.  Lana had nothing to do with it Clark trusting and confiding in her.  

6 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

U know what s more funny about our argumentation?That u have to use hate and say bad things a discredit lana to prove ur point.But that just prove mine.

You said that Lana taught Clark what love was as one of the reasons she was essential to making Clark Superman.  I pointed out that led to Lois. Pretty sure it proved exactly the point I intended.  

I wasn't discrediting Lana to build up Chloe.  I discredited Lana and then used Chloe as a contrast of who on the show was IMO essential in building and shaping Clark to Superman.  

 

7 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

And yeah chloe was there,she helped him in the process,but so did pete and so did his parents.In the first season is pretty clear,that he had chloe for years in his life,but just when he had lana he starts to push himself.

And I'd argue that Clark finding out about Chloe's Wall of Weird and the meteor infected people and dealing with them is what prompted him to push himself, not that Lana took off her necklace and got kidnapped a lot. But I never said that Chloe is the only one that helped shape him as a hero, just that her contributions were bigger.    

 

7 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Chloe is more involved in clark life,just as was pete when he was the secret keeper,and thats all.If lana would have been involved in his life,wich was everything she wanted,she would have been his side kick as well.

Pete's story arc as the secret keeper was actually that it was too hard for him to handle Clark's secret.  It's why he left.  And in season seven when Lana did know, she typically was not Clark's partner or side kick.  She was involved when it directly involved her or if she had info Clark and Chloe wanted, but she wasn't a go to helper.  She could have been, but wasn't.  So there's nothing to say that she would have just as easily filled Chloe's place.  The point the show made IMO was that secret keepers weren't interchangeable.  Knowing wasn't the most important thing, especially since Chloe managed to fill that position as partner and sidekick for four years while not knowing Clark had powers.  She was there to find answers and relied on Clark with or without them.  

 

7 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Lana did that too when she faked her death to frame lex,he gave up her life so he wouldnt hurt anyone else.After of course marrying lex to protect clark.So...even? lol

We've covered this before.  Lana didn't as far as I can see fake her death for Clark.  She did it for herself.  And marrying Lex to protect Clark was a misinformed choice, not based on what Clark really needed. But I was listing what Chloe had done (of which that was one of many, many things) not Lana.  

 

7 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

 

23 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Lana left because she decided she was holding him back. I agree.

I ll say again it was clark that was holding him self back,he could be with lana and be a hero as well

 

Clark was the one holding back, but it was because he felt it was what Lana needed and wanted and given how much happier she was with BizClark that took holding back to the next level and was planning on just vanishing from Smallville completely, I think there is a lot of good reason for Clark to believe he was right about what she needed.  

 

7 hours ago, Sirious Dude said:

Lana always pushed clark even when she didnt knew about his secret,chloe just after she discovers that.

This I can't agree to disagree on.  I can only disagree.  Chloe supported and believed in Clark years and years before she knew his secret.  She continued to support him as both the man and the Superman.  

In the end the degree of how much who contributed is all opinion since the show did include Lana and Chloe so one can't absolutely prove their interpretation but I stand by mine. 

[rue721]

On 12/5/2016 at 11:59 PM, Sirious Dude said:

Am i the only one that noticed that lana was dragged by lex in that relationship?

IMO Lana and Lex's relationship actually progressed pretty organically, at least up until the fake!baby showed up and Lionel blackmailed Lana on her wedding day.

To start at the beginning of their relationship -- IMO Lex bought the Talon because Lana's sentimental pitch genuinely appealed to him. Not to say that Clark having a crush on Lana, and Lex developing an attraction to her, too, were completely irrelevant. But it seemed to me that the pitch was what ultimately swayed him.

Unrealistic as it was, I didn't think there was really anything that nefarious about that deal, or about how they ran the business together afterward. And because of the business, they worked together pretty closely for years -- and they gradually seemed to become friends over the course of that time. Plus, I think that Lana liked how supportive Lex was, and Lex liked how wholesomeness Lana was. So I wouldn't say that their whole relationship was built on lies or manipulation. IMO it made sense and was reasonably believable that they slowly went from being business partners to friends to boyfriend/girlfriend.

But I think that Lionel sabotaged Lana and Lex's (burgeoning) relationship when he told Lex that he would never be able to get a girl like Lana to love him. IIRC, Lionel said that Lana would eventually see the "real" Lex, and she would never be able to love that. IMO that's when Lex went from crushing on Lana to fixating on her. And IMO that's also when he stopped being genuine with her and letting their relationship progress naturally, and started trying to manipulate her into getting "trapped" with him.

I think that comment by Lionel planted the seed (in Lex's head) that Lex needed to wear a "mask" around Lana (which I don't think he had really been doing up until then, at least about his personality and stuff), and planted the idea that how much Lana loved him was a barometer for how lovable or worthy he was in general (as a person). IMO that was Lionel's way of putting pressure on the relationship -- and setting it up to implode (or putting a lot of pressure onto Lex and setting him up to implode, but that's same difference IMO). Lionel did basically the same thing when he blackmailed Lana into marrying Lex, too, IMO.

I think Lionel undermined Lex's confidence and set up that implosion because he simply enjoyed toying with Lex. At that point, I think he was just being sadistic. But later on, when he became Lion-El or whatever, I think he convinced himself that he was somehow redeeming himself by siding with Clark against Lex, and he wasn't just hurting him for shits and giggles (but because it was the right thing to do).

On 12/6/2016 at 7:22 PM, BkWurm1 said:

He was in love with her and wanted her to love him.  He wanted the fantasy life he saw in that dream world.  But he didn't want the unhappy ending so yeah, he tried to control and manipulate.

I agree, but to go even further, I think that the control and manipulation were his attempts to guard against ANY bad outcome, not just the bad outcome that he saw in the dream world. IMO seeing Lana die in the dream world triggered the fear that she would die or be in trouble and he would be powerless to save her (which drove him to be ruthless in the pursuit of power/money). But IMO he also had the fear that she would stop loving him or would leave him and he'd be powerless to stop her (which drove him to try to lock her down).

IMO Lex seemed to start going into a tailspin pretty much as soon as he started believing that he and Lana had a real shot. I think that before that, it seemed like they had both just kind of figured they weren't going to get together, and didn't really worry that much about it. I mean, he was dating and even marrying other women before getting together with Lana, and it didn't seem to me like being with Lana instead of those other women was even on his mind during that time. Same for Lana. But IMO as soon as the idea that he and Lana could actually fall in love and be together became a real possibility to him (which, like I said, I think actually became a possibility pretty organically, over the course of a lot of seasons), he started fixating on all the ways that things could go wrong and he could lose her, and trying to engineer everything so that everything would go perfectly forever. Of course that fixation was counterproductive, but...that's sort of the story of Lex's life, so whatever.

On 12/6/2016 at 9:15 PM, Sirious Dude said:

She did wanted to frame lex for her murder,but she didnt set up their conversation.That just came out spontaneously.How do u set up a conversation? lol He would have been framed anyways even if he didnt hit her.She didnt caused lex to hit her,he did that for jealousy cause when he says clark is the biggest liar,she answer back that he will never be as much important as clark.PLease tell me how could that even be thinked as a set up?She told him the truth.

I agree, I don't think that Lana was specifically trying to get Lex to hit her. IMO she was trying to instigate a fight and trying to air their dirty laundry, as part of her plan to frame him for her murder. Like, she was trying to make it public that their marriage was on the rocks. But it was Lex who made the choice to get physically violent specifically.

I can cut him SOME slack because he obviously learned it at his father's knee. I can see getting physical being normalized enough in his mind that he could legitimately think that it would be the ordinary or even appropriate thing to do in that situation, because IMO he behaved just as Lionel would have in his place. Also, in Lana's place, he probably would have taken her getting violent as a sign of how strongly Lana felt about him, and it would have convinced him/scared him into staying with her. After all, that was his reaction when Lana DID attack him (when she had Clark's powers for a hot second). But as far as I know, Lex had known enough not to get physical with Lana before that, and he purposefully shut the doors so that nobody would actually see him hit her, so he apparently understood that beating her wasn't OK regardless of how normalized it might have been to him personally -- which makes him culpable IMO. And honestly, I think it was one of the most chilling things he did.

Speaking of that scene, I thought the coldblooded way he shut all the doors so he could beat her in private was especially disturbing. It made it seem like this wasn't his first rodeo. My mind jumped to that being Lionel's MO, and Lex picking it up from him, but I guess the interpretation could also be that Lex has a history of getting violent with his SOs and has his own little ritual for it. Just really disturbing either way.

On 12/8/2016 at 2:07 AM, Sirious Dude said:

Lex has always kept a position of power toward lana.First owner of the talon,then owner of the apartment,and then owner of her object of study.That assure him that lana will never really turn against him cause in her mind she feels she owe to lex,she depends from him.It also give to lex the opportunity to be in contact with lana,and he became her confidant.

I don't think that Lex really engineered that all that consciously. He and Clark were both in a weird position throughout the show of having WAY more power than virtually anyone else, and it was difficult for them to maintain relationships (even friendships) because of that power imbalance. I think that was actually a pretty major theme of the show.

On 12/9/2016 at 0:35 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Lex only was able to get close to Lana cause she would rather hanging with a known bad dude that her friends don't trust than not get what she wants.

To be fair to Lana, I think she had her own personal reasons for not wanting to pigeonhole people based on their pasts (since she herself had been pigeonholed as the resident ~tragic beauty~ or whatever and hated it), so she legitimately tried to judge Lex on his own merits rather than based on his reputation.

My read was that she got to know him pretty well, definitely well enough to come to her own conclusions about him (rather than relying on other people's opinions or rumors), and decided she liked him. He also came through for her and for her friends pretty consistently, so he earned her trust over time. Clark's dislike of him could pretty easily be chalked up to jealousy, and Chloe and Lex had their own personal feud going on, so she probably didn't give either of their opinions much weight. I think she understandably came to the conclusion that people had the wrong idea about him.

Anyway, I think that Lana trusted Lex when he was nice, supportive, and reasonably open to her, and then she stopped trusting him when he betrayed her. I don't think that Lex's reputation ever really came into it for her, and IMO that speaks well for her.

On 12/17/2016 at 0:11 PM, Sirious Dude said:

I usually blame clark when u have to,but he wasnt crap to lex,i actually think he was really a good friend,in the moment lex needed him he was alaways there.Lex maybe had good intetnion,but he wasnt honest with clark with thing he should have been.I think eventually clark started to act diffident to lex cause in his subcouncious he knew lex wasnt trust worthy.

Clark was not always there for Lex. He let him languish in Belle Reve, for one. He did eventually try to get him out, but he chose his own safety directly at the expense of Lex's for months before that. And I thought it was an even bigger betrayal when Clark went to Lionel about Lex trying to get his memories (from Belle Reve) back. Clark saw Lionel electrocute Lex, so it was no mystery to him what Lionel's response to Lex's meddling would be. Clark was apparently OK with that, though -- he just didn't realize that Lionel would turn some of that violence on him personally, and wouldn't just focus it all on Lex.

I actually think that Lex did prove himself trustworthy when it came to Clark. Lex's obsession with Clark was creepy, and I understand why Clark wanted to take a step back from their friendship. But IMO it spoke volumes about Lex when he didn't give up Clark's secret even when his life was at stake in Belle Reve. Lex had also helped out the Kents and Clark's friends quite often, for years, and really didn't call in any favors. Even in retrospect, IMO Lex seemed to have been helping them because he valued Clark's friendship and wanted Clark, his family, and his friends to like him, or just because they needed help, and there weren't really nefarious ulterior motives going on there. And even after Lex turned fully "black hat," IMO Clark STILL managed to think worse of him than was really warranted, because Clark was just always trying to think the absolute worst of Lex possible and just couldn't believe anything good or even human about him. Like when Clark assumed that Lex knew that Lana hated him and was just keeping her in the marriage out of cruelty/spite, when really, Lex thought that she did still love him. Or when Clark went to the mansion after Lex killed Lionel and flipped out on him -- granted, Lex really did kill Lionel! But when Lex was saying he was acting so weird because he was grieving and that he was genuinely upset that his father was dead, IMO he was telling the truth, too. Although to be fair, I also was always kind of taken aback at how much Clark defended Lionel to Lex, so who knows what was really going on there!

On 12/23/2016 at 5:46 PM, Sirious Dude said:

Lex wasnt really in  love with lana,he was obsessed with her probably due to his obsession with clark and his life.On lex admition he always wanted all clark had,and lana was the only thing he could actually steal from clark.As lana said,he is not able to love...if he really was in love with lana would have not put her in through so much pain.

I disagree that he was incapable of love. His relationship with his family proves that he was capable of love IMO. He took the blame for his brother's death out of love for Lily, and then he cloned his brother out of love for Julian, and then he killed clone!Julian to keep him away from Lionel out of some twisted love for both Julian, too (in the sense that I think that Lex legitimately thought that he was being merciful by sparing him from being corrupted/degraded by Lionel, and killed him for the same reason that Lily had killed the real Julian way back when). The way he expressed that love was beyond messed up, but I think his actions make it clear that he felt it. I also think that Lex loved Lionel and Clark, but that's a whole other story! ;)

I also think that Lex loved Lana. IMO he genuinely wanted to help and protect her, and he was genuinely afraid of losing her, and he genuinely wanted a life and family with her. I don't think it was irrelevant that Clark wanted her, too, but IMO Lana and Lex also developed a relationship separate from Clark.

On 12/23/2016 at 11:39 PM, BkWurm1 said:

In Static we saw his natural reaction when no one else could so I have no reason to think he was faking it.  In fact, it's the reason why I'm sure the "fake" baby storyline was retconned.  Lex thought he was going to be a day and he was wildly happy.  I think the original storyline was going to be him trying to figure out a way to get the real baby to the clone so that only the clone would be at risk during birth or something like that but yeah, we in the audience saw Lex's genuine reaction and it matched the one he shared with Lana.

Yeah, the only plot that makes logistical sense to me is if Lex decided that it would be too dangerous for Lana to try and carry a baby to term (because he saw her die in childbirth in Lexmas), so he created a Lana-clone to carry/birth her baby for her, and decided that after transferring the fetus from Lana to the clone (or impregnating the clone), he would drug Lana so that she would continue to believe that she was pregnant and would eventually believe that she gave birth to the baby herself.

It wasn't just that Lex was so happy about the baby in Static, he was also dreaming about the monster!baby in the wedding episode and stuff. It really seemed like he thought he was going to be a father. None of that makes sense if he knew the baby was fake all along!

On 12/24/2016 at 2:18 PM, Sirious Dude said:

He wouldnt need the clone thing to save lana too,since in this reality unlike lexmas he has the money and the power.The clone was shown just in the ep 21,we have the first hinst of lana unusal pregnancy in ep 13,and project ares came out just in ep 19.How do u explain that?Remeber lex never do anything unless he's sure to suceed,either cause he planned the moves to do or cause he can physically over power his victim...and so he did with the proposal.

 

Lex did lots of stuff that he couldn't be sure would succeed. In fact, I would actually go the other way and say he was usually too reckless and over-ambitious. He was constantly running bizarre science experiments that would go awry. He was constantly using himself as a guinea pig. He was always getting confrontational with dangerous people or rushing into dangerous situations. He wouldn't even stop investigating Clark despite Clark making it really clear that Lex was making an enemy out of him.

Lex was too ambitious; I can't see being content to just sit on a pile of money and bet on that being enough to protect him. But I can definitely see Lex thinking, if he creates clone surrogates he can bring the maternal mortality rate of the whole world to zero, and that'll protect Lana from dying in childbirth -- and then getting obsessed with that idea. I mean the idea of not just saving Lana, but of saving everybody. And I can see Lex pursuing that idea of creating clone surrogates RELENTLESSLY, ignoring any dangerous or immoral consequences that might come of it, volunteering himself or even his own fetus as a guinea pig, and all kinds of nutso stuff like that.

Lex seemed to have a lot of rescue fantasies, both of him being rescued and of him rescuing EVERYBODY. I think he mostly wanted to prove his own worth and to not feel powerless himself. But he would always blow things way out of proportion. It was never enough for him to solve a problem for now, for himself, he had to solve the problem PERIOD. He had to completely triumph over it and save everyone from it for all time. I don't really know what that was about, though.

On 12/24/2016 at 3:19 PM, BkWurm1 said:

You can have your personal opinion that there was no good in Lex, but even Clark when he went into Lex's head to find out where Kara was was forced to face the truth about there actually being good inside of him. He vowed to fight for that part of him in the future.  I just wish he actually had.   And Connor is a Lex clone and he's Superboy, so yeah, there is good in Lex.  Not enough to win out in the circumstances, but it's not so black or white.

IMO what was interesting about Alexander running around in Lex's head was that Alexander apparently spent his time in the parts of Lex's head that Lex wanted to avoid. I understood the idea that Alexander was in hiding, and that Lex was constantly trying to hunt him down and exterminate him, so it would make sense for him to stick to those areas. But it's still strange to think that the good part of Lex was hidden among all the things he wanted to avoid thinking about or reliving, like memories of his parents being assholes. It's strange to think that bad memories were what was sustaining/protecting the good part of him. That doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I'm not sure what the show was trying to say was good about Alexander, and what goodness was snuffed out in Lex when Lex killed Alexander in the fireplace. Alexander didn't seem especially moral or anything. Was it just that he cared about people? But then, even after killing Alexander, Lex seemed to be mourning his dad. And his dad was a sociopath who Lex himself murdered, so if Lex could still mourn HIM, then I guess he was still pretty able to care about people in general.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Speaking of that scene, I thought the coldblooded way he shut all the doors so he could beat her in private was especially disturbing. It made it seem like this wasn't his first rodeo. My mind jumped to that being Lionel's MO, and Lex picking it up from him, but I guess the interpretation could also be that Lex has a history of getting violent with his SOs and has his own little ritual for it. Just really disturbing either way.

I really enjoyed your post as a whole, but in the scene you refer to, I never got the impression that he planned on hitting Lana until it just happened.  Closing the doors were in my opinion about hiding the argument and yeah, probably learned behavior from Lionel to protect the image of the family, but I think Lex hitting Lana was him losing control like when he went nuts and killed that blackmailing doctor. 

It was still chilling, but I don't believe it was calculated.  Closing the doors, yes, but I don't think until his hand was swinging out that he thought he'd hit her.  Again, not lessening the wrongness of what he did, but except when Lex loses control, he's not a super physical person.  But when he DOES lose control, it's swift and brutal.  

Edited December 28, 2016 by BkWurm1

[rue721]

45 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I really enjoyed your post as a whole, but in the scene you refer to, I never got the impression that he planned on hitting Lana until it just happened.  Closing the doors were in my opinion about hiding the argument and yeah, probably learned behavior from Lionel to protect the image of the family, but I think Lex hitting Lana was him losing control like when he went nuts and killed that blackmailing doctor. 

It was still chilling, but I don't believe it was calculated.  Closing the doors, yes, but I don't think until his hand was swing out that he thought he'd hit her.  Again, not lessening it, but except when Lex loses control, he's not a super physical person.  But when he DOES lose control, it's swift and brutal.  

OK, I just re-watched the scene.

Seeing it again, I agree that Lex didn't know for sure that he was going to hit her. I do think that he knew that things were about to get ugly, though. Lana had already told him she thought he was incapable of love and she was done. He knew there was no way to convince her to stay with him out of love, so he was going to have to use force to keep her there. Not necessarily use physical force, but IMO use force of some kind (manipulation, blackmail, threats, etc).

To me personally, someone closing the doors and physically blocking the exit is a pretty major danger signal, maybe even an implied threat. So in my perspective, Lex closing the doors and standing in front of them was Lex physically trapping Lana in the room, and a big red flag that things were pretty likely to escalate into him getting straight up violent. So in my perspective, him closing the doors/blocking Lana's exit predicted him hitting her. But that might be idiosyncratic to me! I'm not really sure what the director was trying to convey with that choice of blocking?

But in any case, I do agree that, on re-watch, it seems like he didn't think, "I'm going to hit her, so I'd better close the doors," which is how I had remembered it. It seemed more like he closed the doors because he was thinking, "I can't just let her leave!" and things escalated pretty organically from there.

Anyway, I also agree that, ultimately, he hit her because he lost control. My take on what happened was:  She told him that he'd betrayed her (with the fake!baby plot), so she was 100% done with him. He tried to convince her to stay because of the love they had had for each other, or at least the love he had for her, and she blew him off by saying he was never even capable of love. I think that genuinely hurt him. Maybe because he actually did love her, maybe because he was still sane enough to worry about being #foreveralone, maybe because he heard the implication in her accusation that he was not only incapable of love but also of being loved...? Regardless, that's when he shut the doors. That's also when he asked if Lana breaking up with him was because of Clark. IMO he just couldn't stand the idea that he himself was to blame for Lana hating him, and that's why he tried to shift the blame to Clark (in his own head) right then. It seemed like Lana was thinking, "wtf does Clark have to do with this?" but she also said that Clark meant more to her than Lex ever would -- and that's when Lex smacked her. I do think that he just lost it.

I don't really know why that in particular would make him lose it, though! I guess just jealousy toward Clark? I don't entirely understand Lex's obsession with Clark, though. It's like he desperately wanted to BE him?

That's another thing I found interesting about how the show depicted Alexander, aka the "good part" of Lex (in Lex's head) -- Alexander was sure that Clark was his best friend, and he wanted to help and protect him, even though at that point, Lex and Clark were enemies. But if the "good part" of Lex (i.e., Alexander) was what drew Lex to Clark and wanted them to be close, then why did Clark hate Lex's fixation on him so much? I mean, it seemed like Clark didn't just hate it because it was inconvenient, he seemed to straight up not want to be friends with Lex. Like, he disliked him personally. Which was fair enough.

I dunno, I guess I still find Clark and Lex's relationship confusing and interesting! And YES I do think that discussion of that relationship belongs in the 'ship thread :P

[BkWurm1]

7 hours ago, rue721 said:

That's another thing I found interesting about how the show depicted Alexander, aka the "good part" of Lex (in Lex's head) -- Alexander was sure that Clark was his best friend, and he wanted to help and protect him, even though at that point, Lex and Clark were enemies. But if the "good part" of Lex (i.e., Alexander) was what drew Lex to Clark and wanted them to be close, then why did Clark hate Lex's fixation on him so much? I mean, it seemed like Clark didn't just hate it because it was inconvenient, he seemed to straight up not want to be friends with Lex. Like, he disliked him personally. Which was fair enough.

I dunno, I guess I still find Clark and Lex's relationship confusing and interesting! And YES I do think that discussion of that relationship belongs in the 'ship thread :P

Absolutely it belongs in the relationship thread.  It's for all sorts of relationships in all stages.

I think at the most basic, Lex loved Clark and even when Clark rejected him, still desperately wanted that brotherly bond back.  Clark filled the void for Julian.  It's ironic that Lilly killed Julian, sure that Lionel would pit the boys against each other, but that Lionel still managed to do that with the brother that Lex chose for himself (Clark).  And Lex still came out lacking. Which is why eventually, Lex snapped and killed Lionel.

 And I don't think Clark ever fully understood the part he played in the game.   Truth be told, I never fully understood Lionel's game even in the end, but I wonder if some part of Lex deciding the world needed saving from Clark came from the fact that Lionel "chose" Clark as the favorite son.  Lex did recognize that Lionel was twisted and evil.  So if Lionel favored Clark, then he must be in danger of being corrupted by Lionel and thus Lex needed to stop Clark before he used his powers and took out the world.  

As for why Clark acted like he hated Lex for his fixation on him, I honestly believe it was all about his secret and Clark's obsessive need at times to keep it.  Lex was in danger of figuring it out and yeah, Lex was shady but at the time when he did figure it out, we found out that he was loyal to Clark.  And Clark failed to save him.  And later, Clark set Lex up to be hurt by Lionel again, which I agree, was reprehensible.  I think part of the reason why Clark acted like he hated Lex was to justify his own bad behavior.

 I do think from what we were shown on the show that there was a window where Lex could have become a force for good, but a lot of bad things happened to Lex in season three between Helena's betrayal and being driven "mad" by Lionel and the shock treatment.  He was already pretty dark but I think he could have been pulled back from that edge if he'd not lost Clark's friendship and I think that's a guilt that Clark struggled with, wondering/suspecting the same thing and in turn acted like Lex was just always a lost cause to compensate.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 hours ago, rue721 said:

He tried to convince her to stay because of the love they had had for each other, or at least the love he had for her, and she blew him off by saying he was never even capable of love. I think that genuinely hurt him. Maybe because he actually did love her, maybe because he was still sane enough to worry about being #foreveralone, maybe because he heard the implication in her accusation that he was not only incapable of love but also of being loved...? Regardless, that's when he shut the doors. That's also when he asked if Lana breaking up with him was because of Clark.

And the irony of ironies of that? Right before she dumped Clark, she tells him "I don't know how I could ever have been in love with you." or something like that. And a year later, she says something similar to Lex. I wonder if there had been time, if she would have said the same thing to Jason.

I've said this either here or in the specific season threads, but one of the things that had me rolling my eyes was the superfast, faster than a speeding bullet of Lana, who was presumably, this fresh-faced, naive, girl next door, who suddenly became this sophisticated "sexy" "woman" when she returned from Paris a mere three months later.  I think it's around in this season, that Lex begins to have feelings that aren't just friends for Lana The Pink Pestilence. Then of course you see how powerffffuuuuuuul she is and yields that power once she's with Lex. She's only 19 or 20 when Ollie made his first appearance, but the way she dressed and held herself at the reunion? To me, it was the behavior of someone who should have been at least 8 years older. But then, this is the show that had a 15 year old become half owner of a coffee shop, because she couldn't staaaaaaand to see the old movie theatre where her parents went to as teenagers, shut down. Oh, and did you know that her parents

 

were flattened like pancakes by the kryptonite meteors??? That she was the ONLYYYYYY one to have suffered such a loss?

Edited December 28, 2016 by GHScorpiosRule

[BkWurm1]

42 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

were flattened like pancakes by the kryptonite meteors[/spoilers]??? That she was the ONLYYYYYY one to have suffered such a loss?

Yeah, her attitude about this from the start made her seem pretty self absorbed and that impression did not improve for me.  She seemed unable to form lasting bonds with anyone.  No one could ever measure up for long before she found them lacking.  I'm talking from Aunt Nell and Chloe down to every boyfriend she ever had.  Only the unattainable was good enough and frequently, that didn't last either.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Okay, so I popped in the dvds for my annual marathon rewatching and maybe it's because I miss this show (who'dathunk?) but as I watched "Metamorphosis" and saw this piece of dialogue:

Chloe: "Clark? Are you outgrowing me as a friend?"

Clark: Pauses, turns all the way around and walks up to Chloe: "Chloe, I could never outgrow you, other than vertically."

Clark looks down at Chloe and smiles, and when she smiles back, his smile gets deeper and there's something in his eyes.

Me: Mebbe I'm seeing more than there is in the scene, but please allow me my fantasies. Because the chemistry between those two was a cracklin'!