Climbing the Spitball Wall - An Unsullied's Take on A Song of Ice and Fire - Reading Complete! Now onto Rewatching the Show and Anticipating Season 6!

Lady S. · January 21, 2016

In the case of Lady Dustin -- and for a second I'll revisit the whole, "at least Jeyne's mother must have been acting purposefully, because there's a reason you don't leave your virginal daughters alone with teen boys...who are already in bed, for the love of gods and monsters, squids and seahorses too -- what's also possible with that Brandon detail is that she wasn't above getting knocked up to try and secure her claim on Brandon. So moon tea or no, she was unconcerned with issues of unplanned pregnancy because one of the reasons she might note that gross detail is that she was purposefully interested in the mechanics of the encounter, because she wanted to secure a marriage through screwing.

Well, she did say her father was willing to offer her maidenhead to any Stark who happened by, so I think he and she were hoping Brandon would pull a Robb and break his betrothal to marry Barbrey. Which is probably what led to Brandon saying he never wanted to marry Catelyn but he just had to do as his father said. But then, back to the horse riding thing, Barbrey's family, the Ryswells were horse breeders and she gave Lord Dustin her father's best horse which Ned brought back instead of her husband's bones blah blah, so it's kinda weird if Barbrey wasn't into horseriding herself.

As for Asha and any possible pregnancy, she is a potential Queen if Euron is overthrown. I sure hope the story doesn't end with one of her uncles still in power, and Theon is in no fit condition to be King when the ironborn already considered him less manly than Asha before Ramsay broke him, and he certainly isn't capable of producing children.

Avaleigh · January 21, 2016

So Aerys copped a feel at Tywin's wedding feast and Tywin held onto the grudge like it was money. Okay, so the show having Pycelle drone on about Aerys being a good man until he went mad is only a show thing. Instead he was a lifelong creep.

Of course, in that same speech, Pycelle talks about what a great king Joffrey is going to be, so I'm not sure how seriously we're supposed to take his praise of Aerys even on the show.

Plus, then he immediately does that squat thing implying he's as duplicitous as everyone else in King's Landing and even he probably doesn't believe any of the stuff he just said.

Edit: Oh, and Aerys copping a feel is some of the bigger fodder for the Tyrion Targaryen theory (which I don't particularly like and hope doesn't pan out).

Shimpy, I've been waiting for you to get to this little tidbit and was curious if you'd make anything of it but since the Tyrion Targaryen idea is has been mentioned alread I'll just say that this theory to me is almost or even just as strong as R+L=J. I think the main thing that stands in the way of the theory is that people dislike the idea as opposed to there not being a mountain of evidence that's been there since the first book and I'm not just talking about physical description. I certainly don't think there's any decent evidence against the theory. The strongest evidence is what we know of Tywin's personality and everything that I know about the man indicates that he has every reason to believe that Tyrion isn't his but doesn't know for sure.

I also think it's significant how mysterious the character of Joanna is but how, like with Lyanna, we're slowly getting more and more. To me there's a significant reason behind this.

During the reread of the first book I was struck by how well Jon and Tyrion's first meeting works if they are in fact uncle and nephew.

Similarly, season 5 spoiler

The scene between Tyrion and Dany works even better if it turns out that they're half siblings.

There are loads of points I'll quote to but since this is a chapter you recently read I'll point to this quote: "Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." To me, Moqorro is definitely saying that Tyrion is a dragon here. It reminds me of the quote of Tyrion standing as tall as a king.

Small spoiler from AWOIAF

It was reading this that fully convinced me that this theory is happening. It's the twisted Targ births that come up over and over that sound just like Tyrion only Tyrion happened to survive.

So far I don't think there's anything in the show that has happened that stands against the theory save Tyrion's hair color being wildly different now than it was in the first season. In the pilot they went for a more Targaryen blonde unlike with Jaime and Cersei. Then it sort of disappeared but the hair of the Lannister twins grew darker as well. *shrug*

jellyroll2 · January 21, 2016

Although someone came up with a great theory that heads could mean titles.

Example:

Jon Snow= Lord Commander, King in the North and King of the Wildlings

That's basically what I meant by aspects. Not personality traits.

chandraReborn · January 21, 2016

I think the idea behind Moon Tea is more that it wasn't the kind of thing noble girls were really told about. Girls like Asha, who are more traveled, and Cersei, who is older and more cosmopolitan, know that it's a fairly reliable way to end a pregnancy. But girls like Lysa and Jeyne Westerling don't really realize they're being dosed with it, likely because anyone who could tell them about it is discouraged from doing so. It's the Westeros version of the girl who thinks it's impossible to get pregnant before getting married and winds up a teen mom.

Autarch · January 21, 2016

In my opinion, the Three-headed Dragon is meant to be taken literally as well as being a metaphor for whatever else--dragon riders, alliances, whatever. Something akin to the Hindu trimurti.

Aerys wasn't

anywhere near Joanna during Jaime and Cersei's conception according AWOIAF but he was in the area for Tyrion's according to the same source.Furthermore, many of the miscarriages th's Rhaella suffered in-between Rhaegar and Viserys were deformed babies reminiscent of Tyrion

I did not know that. Very interesting. It seems he at least wants us to keep that possibility in mind.

WindyNights · January 21, 2016

@shimpy Jeyne's mom can brew Moon tea or whatever it's called because she's Maggy the Frog's gran-daughter.

Now there's is musing about the Florent POS, when Jon says that he's the closest thing to a kinslayer, and what kind of person watches his brother burn to death without doing a thing?

I didn't realize this until now but this is a knock against Daenerys. That's hilarious.

Lady S. · January 21, 2016

I think the idea behind Moon Tea is more that it wasn't the kind of thing noble girls were really told about. Girls like Asha, who are more traveled, and Cersei, who is older and more cosmopolitan, know that it's a fairly reliable way to end a pregnancy. But girls like Lysa and Jeyne Westerling don't really realize they're being dosed with it, likely because anyone who could tell them about it is discouraged from doing so. It's the Westeros version of the girl who thinks it's impossible to get pregnant before getting married and winds up a teen mom.

Okay, Asha being more worldly than most women is the best explanation for it. Tormund also mentions it to Jon when asking why he hadn't banged Ygritte yet, saying she could go to a wise woman to prevent children. So the wildlings are more open about it, but even there the women don't brew their own Lipton Plan B.

Avaleigh · January 21, 2016

Regarding Tyrion being Aerys's son, rather than Tywin's: the theory seems to have started because Tywin tells Tyrion "you are no son of mine" (which, again, he also says to Jaime) and Aerys gets nominated as dad because Tyrion is fascinated by dragons and because we found out that Aerys groped Joanna at her wedding. For me, I find it hard to believe that Tywin "I Will Have a Peasant Girl Gang-Raped for the Temerity of Marrying a Lannister" Lannister would raise his wife's bastard to adulthood knowing that Tyrion isn't his son; even if he adored Joanna (and I think we have independent confirmation from Genna Lannister, not just delusional Cersei, and stuff about how if Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms, his wife ruled him, etc.), I can't see him raising the child that "killed" her if that child wasn't his own, and if he didn't like her all that much, even less reason to do so. If he even suspected that Tyrion wasn't his, I have no doubt Tywin would have made sure Tyrion had a nasty accident as a child, based on what we see of Tywin's character. So I don't see Tywin raising a child to adulthood that he believes is not his own. If, on the other hand, Tywin doesn't know, then one major piece major "evidence" for Tyrion not being his son (Tywin telling him "you are not my son") can't be taken at face value and the theory merely stands on physical description and/or some putative actions of Aerys for which there is no evidence at all in the books.

The physical descriptions would also seem to favor the idea that Tyrion is a Lannister - neither of his bi-colored eyes is purple - one is black, the other green, and his white-blond hair (which is described as being exactly like Tommen, whom we know to be 100% Lannister!) is not the same as "silver." And lastly, there's the logistical issue: Aerys groped Joanna at her wedding, but there's no indication that he raped her and said wedding happened at least a decade before Tyrion was born, so it's a pretty big stretch (for me) to think that Aerys headed off to Casterly Rock just to rape Joanna? It just feels all wrong to me - psychologically particularly - the whole reason Tyrion irks Tywin SO MUCH is because he is a Lannister.

I guess a lot of people like this theory because there's some feeling that the "three heads of the dragon" must be Targaryens (although I read SPOILER FOR OTHER MATERIAL SHIMPY MAY NOT HAVE READ

The Princess and the Queen and it wasn't clear to me that all the dragon tamers had Targaryen blood

and Tyrion is clearly being marked for some kind of dragon connection, though ... I dunno, I would be disappointed if it's so clear-cut that Dany, Tyrion and Jon come in and save the day with dragons and then one of them dies and the other two get married and rule Westeros. It seems so run of the mill fantasy ending, and I'd be sad to have waited for two decades for that ending. Not to mention that I mostly hate this theory because it gives Tyrion an "out" for killing Tywin - he's not a kinslayer at all, if he killed someone else's dad (which completely ignores the fact that he ALSO murdered Shae, which to me has always been the far more disturbing of the two murders he commits that night.)

Anyway ... sorry for the long replies - back to DwD!!

There's so much to address here. I don't know if I can get to all of it but I'll try to address the major points. I definitely disagree that it all boils down to physical description and there is evidence from all five books even without AWOIAF (Although I admit that book contains some of what I think is the strongest evidence.)

I strongly disagree that Genna's comment becomes invalidated if it turns out that Tywin is not Tyrion's biological father. This does not change the fact that Tywin raised him and Tyrion, who always longed for his father's acceptance, is the child who would try to be the most like him whether it was a conscious effort or not.

It's important to note that Tommen's hair is only described as being white blonde once in the first book. Otherwise he has golden curls like his parents and siblings. Tyrion's black eye is likely a dark purple. We've seen in the books with Aegon/Faegon and others that eye color can be hidden. Shiera Seastar is another Targ who was born with mismatched eyes. I know, I know, Euron--I'm of the opinion that Euron's eyes weren't born that way. We don't know of any dark eyed Lannisters but we do know that there were a couple of dark eyed women to marry into House Targaryen.

If it happened, Aerys would have raped Joanna in KL. (I'm convinced that it was rape if it happened.) Spoiler for AWOIAF

I can't think of a single reason why the book would show that Aerys couldn't have fathered the twins but was in perfect position to father Tyrion. Joanna ends up pregnant after visiting court when she hadn't been there for years.

Tyrion irks for a bunch of reasons but it has to burn that the son who might not even be his is the one who is most like him. I reject the idea that blood is what makes Tyrion like Tywin.

I disagree that Tyrion is given an "out" if Tywin isn't his biological father. That's like saying that Ned Stark isn't Jon's father even though we know that Rhaegar is likely his bio dad. Tyrion killed the man who raised him and blood isn't going to change that. He'd also technically still be a kinslayer since Tywin would still be his cousin.

What does end up being interesting to me is the idea that Jaime and Tyrion are both responsible for killing each other's fathers. I think there's complexity in that.

Re: The Princess and the Queen

I thought it couldn't have been more clear that the concept of dragonseeds were to demonstrate just how important the blood is. Nettles in all likelihood had the blood.

Whenever this theory comes up I always find it interesting that it is generally accepted that Starks have the magical blood of the First Men. People feel uncomfortable with the idea of Dany having special blood because she's already special enough. I think enough has been set up though to suggest that blood magic is likely how the Targaryens were able to control their dragons and that's why incest was seen as ideal. They likely wanted to keep their magical blood pure.

I don't think that Tyrion being a Targaryen means that he or Jon will necessarily marry Dany.

Re: Tysha--I won't be surprised if the brutality of that episode was partly to do with whatever Tywin knows/suspects happened with Aerys and Joanna.

One of the things that I haven't made up my mind on is whether Tywin knew for sure. My instinct is that there was always doubt in both cases and that he wasn't happy with either scenario. I know people say that Tywin hasn't been punished enough and maybe he wasn't but consider that for him, there is no good scenario whether he's Tyrion's father or not. If Tyrion is his son, then the gods saw fit to curse him with a dwarf. It's his son that kills his beloved wife and it makes him feel responsible. The alternative is that Aerys is responsible for Tyrion but that means Joanna was either raped or unfaithful.

Another reason I lean towards Tywin not knowing for sure is that I think this could be the reason he refrained from killing Tyrion. I'm going to quote the show and this all happened before season 5. When Tywin is explaining that he wanted to kill Tyrion but refrained because Tyrion is a Lannister and the "lowest" of the Lannisters I think that he may have been speaking of Tyrion being a Lannister through Joanna. I don't think that kinslaying is much of a thing on the show given what happened with Jaime early on, but I do think it will factor into the books.

Finally--why does it work for me? It's the only theory apart from RLJ that ties loads of things together. I don't see Tyrion being a Lannister tying anything together or suddenly giving a bunch of moments extra meaning. There are so many cool little connections that become nothing it this theory ends up not being true.

When I think of all of the similarities between Jon, Dany, and Tyrion that's fascinating enough. The dragon dreams seem especially significant not to mention the connection Tyrion seems to have dragons more than any other character save Dany.

I did not know that. Very interesting. It seems he at least wants us to keep that possibility in mind.

At a minimum I think things like this keep the theory anywhere from being near crackpot theory. I can't think of why so many things were included in

AWOIAF to support the idea along with including things that eliminate other possibilities like A+J = J+C

Again, apart from personal preference and people simply not wanting there to be a mystery about Tyrion's parentage (even though his parentage is called into question in his very first chapter IIRC) there isn't any evidence that stands in the way of the theory from what I've seen.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Avaleigh

Terra Nova · January 21, 2016

@Avaleigh

There is only one problem regarding (aWoIaF)

Nettles is there to show exactly the contrary, that blood may be important but not determinant: a dark-skinned dark-eyed dark-haired equivalent of a Westerosi hobo tames a dragon by bribing him with food and slowly letting him grow accustomed to her presence (just like in case of some common wild animal) and the girl should be a Targ? The only proof I may see is that she succeeds but that's a circular explanation. She is Targ because she tamed the dragon. How did she do it? Because of her magic Targ blood. And Valyrians were just sheperds when they started taming dragons in the same way as Nettles, qnd only later used spells and black magic, so if anything all this shows that everyone could potentially be a dragontamer.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Terra Nova

Avaleigh · January 21, 2016

@Avaleigh

There is only one problem regarding (aWoIaF)

Nettles is there to show exactly the contrary, that blood may be important but not determinant: a dark-skinned dark-eyed dark-haired equivalent of a Westerosi hobo tames a dragon by bribing him with food and slowly letting him grow accustomed to her presence (just like in case of some common wild animal) and the girl should be a Targ? The only proof I may see is that she succeeds but that's a circular explanation. She is Targ because she tamed the dragon. How did she do it? Because of her magic Targ blood. And Valyrians were just sheperds when they started taming dragons in the same way as Nettles, qnd only later used spells and black magic, so if anything all this shows that everyone could potentially be a dragontamer.

@Terra Nova--

I'm positive that Nettles is a dragonseed. I don't think that having the blood of the dragon = dragonrider. I don't think that Viserys would have been a dragonrider if he'd lived. I think it takes blood in addition to some kind of skill. I don't see why GRRM would even introduce the concept of the illegitimate dragonseed offspring running around Dragonstone if this wasn't going to turn out to be a thing. All the dragonriders we know of have the right blood. We just don't know enough about Nettles ancestry for sure but to me logic supports that she has some Valyrian blood.

Re: dragons and direwolves

I've noticed that when it comes to Nettles it seems like people prefer the idea that magic isn't the answer to riding a dragon even though a dragon is a magical beast at the end of the day. The Starks having the magical blood to be able to instantly and easily control their direwolves isn't really criticized but it's different when it's suggested that blood is part of what it takes to bond with a dragon and I can only guess it's because dragons are more impressive/destructive/dangerous/aren't as cute as direwolves, etc.

I've also read many comments over the years that suggest having a dwarf as a dragon rider is impossibly cheesy in that fantasy way and I totally disagree with this, but maybe it's because I haven't read much fantasy so GRRM being a supposed trope subverter or whatever has never been that big of a deal to me.

Regarding the idea that "anyone" could potentially

bond with a dragon--I don't think so and the reason I feel this way is how long the Valyrians were able to run their show. How is it that a bunch of non Valyrians didn't become dragontamers over the years? There should be more examples than Nettles from over the years. AWOIAF specifically says that only the Valyrians knew how to control them. Surely somebody else in thousands of years could have started feeding a dragon to gain its trust just as Nettles did. You have all of these slaves and servants helping the Targs keep the dragons. Other people who feed them and help care for them but the dragons have one rider until something happens to that rider. (It's also curious that a person can only bond with one dragon--this implies magic to me.)

Once the Valyrians are wiped out

it's only other Valyrians who are capable of bonding with and riding dragons. It doesn't make sense that more people weren't able to do what Nettles did if it was simply all about steadily feeding the animal food.

Terra Nova · January 21, 2016

@Avaleigh:

So it is sufficient that someone's great-great-great-great-great-grandparent has a drop of Valyrian blood for that someone to be a dragonrider? Then all the population of Dragonstone and half of the kingdom and probably Essos too can be dragonriders. This does strain credulity to me. Nettles is the only one in the story not to look a Targ nor to claim she has the blood and the only one to try a different approach, one that doesn't assume the human to be some chosen one, and yet what we as readers should conclude is that she falls exactly in the same category as the rest of Targs and Velaryons and assorted bastards?

RE: dragons and direwolves

We are in the mind of a dragonrider, and we experience nothing even close to what skinchanging is (just like Tyrion childish dreams of riding a dragon are not the same thing as the true dragon dreams Dany experiences in AGoT). All I see is a girl whipping the flank of a beast and then once the whip is gone forcefully steering its head where she wants to go, as if her dragon was some stubborn horse. I'm not denying dragons are linked to magic, only that the 'bond' with their master is something completely different from direwolves, which by the way are in no case 'instantly' possessed by the Stark kids. It's violence the dragons respond to, not some psychic connection with the master. Rhaenys is shown to whip her dragon with a barbed scourge, and she's ridden it for a lifetime.

How is it that a bunch of non Valyrians didn't become dragontamers over the years?

Because

dragons lived only around the volcanoes in Valyria, so no other Essosi could get a hold on them. Actually, I can flip your argument around: how convenient is that the entire population of the only area with living dragons turned out to be able of dragonriding? That in later times blood magic and spells were used to forcefully bind a dragon to a master tells me that it's not some particular gene in the blood that triggers the bonding (unless Valyrians tried to magically absorb the dragonblood in them, but this must have taken place later, with the Empire already at its apex) . The horn Euron has can tie a dragon to any person through a magic ritual, human sacrifice included, and comes from Valyria where there were many more back in the days of the Freehold.

As for Westerosi, Targ dragons were always few and well locked in the Dragonpit, and most of them were hatched from eggs put in the cradle of babies, so that they could immediately bond: and again, how convenient is that all the dragons hatched this way ended up being ridden by those babies? Not a single one rejected the Targ it was given to. This too in my opinion shows that the 'bond' is closer to what someone can have with a common animal: the dragon got used to the presence of that particular person and in time it didn't rebelled when mounted. But I digress. There's a purpose for all that talk about Targaryens being divine, and that's exaclty to discourage people from trying to rise against them or emulate them. So yeah, we already have at Dragonstone people happy to have their daughters raped by some divine superior being, it's not a stretch to think that the smallfolk would never even presume to try and approach a dragon, let alone attempt to mount it.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Terra Nova

nksarmi · January 21, 2016

If you are bringing other GRRM works into your consideration about who can tame or ride a dragon - you should probably consider his children's story: The Ice Dragon: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/grrm_book/the-ice-dragon/.

I picked the book up a couple of years ago for my daughter (who loved it and wants more - poor child - wrong author for that!) and I'm 99% sure it exists in the world of ASoIaF. I have even read a very detailed essay that argues that (shimpy - I'm going to spoiler this but it is all conjecture so I think it's safe to read)

there is an ice dragon living in the Wall and when it comes down - that is the dragon that Jon will ride and he and Dany will battle each other on Ice and Fire dragons rather than team up.

Anyway - I think the hints of "You will never walk again, but you will fly" and Bran's strong ability to warg/skinchange suggests that he could control a dragon and if Tyrion does end up riding one - he won't need Targ blood to do it but a warg who he once designed a special saddle for instead.

And on that note - while I think we all accept that it's the Stark "blood of the first men" that allows them to be wargs/skin changers - we also see that they are not alone in this quality. Wildlings also share the blood of the first men and have wargs born among them. That would suggest that even if Valyrain blood is required - there are plenty of candidates out there. Tyrion does not have to be one of the three heads of the dragon for this story to work for me.

In fact, I'd say that Tyrion being the little man with a giant shadow "snarling" in the middle of the "dragons" likely points to the fact that he will be the one to bring PEACE to the realm. I also think old/young, real/fake, bright/dark probably refers to Dany and Aegon as opposed to six different people. I believe - more and more - that even if Jon is the hero of this story, it's because he is a Wolf - not a dragon. After all, it was his Stark ancestors who built that wall and defeated the Others long before the Targs came to Westerous.

stillshimpy · January 21, 2016

I guess another thing to try and figure out would be compelling narrative reasons to have Tyrion turn out to be Aerys' son vs. Tywin's and the first that came to mind is: Well, Martin has revisited and touched up the whole "accursed Kinslayer" concept over and over. Several time in Dragons (ADWD, I guess that would be) Tyrion surprised me by fretting about seeing his father in hell.

That really sort of startled me, because I assumed that after learning what Tywin and Jaime allowed to happen to Tysha would just make him feel like it was a righteous action, vs. "I'll be in hell for this" and it clearly is supposed to be because "ZOMG! I killed my father". The number of times he's thought about that crossbow killing Tywin and "You should ask my father" etc. is also pretty high.

So it is clearly meant to be plaguing the character. There is actually someone living who might know if Aerys eventually raped Joanna at a different time and that's Barristan. Forgetting the Heads of the Dragons stuff reason within the story, I guess a structural reason in the story might be to get Tyrion off the hook for killing Tywin on the "kinslayer" level.

In terms of not having the right coloring to be a Targaryen, I don't think it actually matters because taking after his maternal side is a genetic possibility also. It is pretty clear that Martin has a ton of sympathy for Tyrion as one of his characters. The number of times he catalogues Tyrion sitting around and licking his wounds obsessively is usually only something an author will do in "This is a defining aspect, this is important! Pay attention to this!" manner.

So it's possible within the books. Of course, part of the reason it sort of leaves me shrugging is that I don't have an issue with Tyrion having killed Tywin. Tywin had someone he loved gang raped, mistreated Tyrion his entire life. Seemingly left him to nearly die of neglect in a hopeful bid to be shut of him. He was going to have Tyrion killed and whereas Tyrion did kill Tywin in a sort of "as an act of revenge" manner , it seems fairly justifiable.

I guess time will tell on that. I'm fairly ambivalent on that, but most of the time I just find Tyrion a little tedious. "Drink! Drink! Poor-me-poor-me-poor-me! Screw a prostitute. Where do whores go? Drink! Drink! *vomit* *have leg cramps* *obsess over crossbows* " For me there's practically the crash of gears grinding together every time his name appears at the beginning of a chapter. Kiss all narrative momentum goodbye, it's time for the endless self-pity cycle to repeat. Tyrion's misfortunes are indeed many and varied , but revisiting the same thought process in a character over and over isn't plot development, it's treading water and comes off as stalling to me.

So each Tyrion chapter seems to be about 75% wallowing and 25% actual story movement. Penny seems okay to me, but I'm already a little over "Tyrion will confront and face what it means to be a dwarf in this land" and I can't even really tell anyone why it is that Tyrion irks me more than entertains me. I'm also just fatigued by how frequently Martin includes hideous abuse of animals and has characters have the same thought about it, over and over. Theon and his horse. Okay you know, you don't have to repeat things a dozen times for someone to get "that's awful, holy shit" so all the stuff with the pig and the dog in Tyrion's chapters just says to me "Oh here we go again."

Jon's character has become one I really enjoy, but Tyrion's character needs to do something other than having daddy and identity issues combined with some really unpleasant stuff about women. Every time Tyrion wonders where Tysha has gone, it doesn't quite work for me, because from my standpoint wherever she is? He needs to stay the hell away from her, unless it's to deliver a giant bag of diamonds and gold and take his leave again. His family had her gang-raped. She gets to hate him forever and he really ought to know that showing back up in her life is selfish as hell. If she's managed to put her life back together, he has no right to derail it again for his own selfish "but now I feel bad! My tender feelings! I can't live with myself , so I'll just....be a violative influence in your life again!" Dude, stay.the.fuck.away.from.her. She did love you, now she gets to hate you and it's really that fucking simple.

I completely understand why Tyrion feels betrayed at a stunning level, but the entire thing has also demonstrated that Tyrion is self-involved to an off-putting degree. Every time he wonders "Where do whores go?" I hope it will occur to him "I should figure that out, so that I can do her the one kindness I have at my disposal, never, ever inflicting my presence upon her again" I understand that Tyrion was also a victim in that instance -- and goodness knows he is also Super-Duper-Chronically-Hyper Aware of his own victimhood in that -- but by miles and miles she was more so. Suffering is not usually a contest. However, when two people share a terrible experience like that and there are degrees of injury and hers were, by freaking far the worst in that instance.

If he ever does find her, I hope this is something that might occur to him, but the entire time he thinks about her Tyrion is dwelling on what happened to him and seemingly has no awareness that she was so hideously betrayed by him, it would be a miracle if she didn't crossbow him into the great beyond.

Edited January 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

nksarmi · January 21, 2016

LOL shimpy - I could tell you'd hate Tyrion in this book. I enjoyed him for three books and I was irritated as heck with him by book five. You already found him annoying so I was like shesh - this isn't going to get any better for her. I hope GRRM turns him around in book six because good grief, I don't think I can read "Where do whores go?" one more time.

Oh and I too had no problem that he killed Tywin. I really don't get the whole "no one is as cursed as a kinslayer" thing that Martin has going on here. Because I can really think of a whole lot of things that should rate as worse than killing an abusive father who plans to have you murdered.

Edited January 21, 2016 by nksarmi

Delta1212 · January 21, 2016

I agree with you on the "The best thing for Tysha is Tyrion staying far away from her" point, but I also get Tyrion's obsessing here. He just discovered that someone actually really, truly loved him at one point in his life and that it was someone who was ripped away in a very violent and unpleasant experience for everyone involved, and he found this out when the only other person that he seems to have had a healthy bond with admitted to having lied to him about this fact for years, and immediately before discovering the woman he'd consciously tricked himself into believing had feeling for him in the bed of the man whose relationship to Tyrion I don't even know how to adequately describe in a single sentence.

Then he murdered both of them.

So I get the "Tysha was the only good thing that ever intruded on my existence and I lost her in a horrific way and have no idea what ultimately became of her" brooding, even if I agree that it probably ends nowhere good for anybody, least of all Tysha.

stillshimpy · January 21, 2016

I understand why it bothers him so much, Delta, but when writing a story it really isn't necessary to go over the same point, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in order to have a reader grasp that.

The saying "take it as read" is really incredibly applicable once you reach thrice. After that? Allow a reader to take it as read.

So it's actually Martin's writing that I'm taking issue with in this instance. Repetition can be a good tool for emphasis, but Martin is very fond of it when it comes to Tyrion and it took a very, very powerful "Oh holy shit!" moment and is robbing it of some of its emotional power. Too much repetition just leads to desensitization.

Edited January 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

Delta1212 · January 21, 2016

LOL shimpy - I could tell you'd hate Tyrion in this book. I enjoyed him for three books and I was irritated as heck with him by book five. You already found him annoying so I was like shesh - this isn't going to get any better for her. I hope GRRM turns him around in book six because good grief, I don't think I can read "Where do whores go?" one more time.

Oh and I too had no problem that he killed Tywin. I really don't get the whole "no one is as cursed as a kinslayer" thing that Martin has going on here. Because I can really think of a whole lot of things that should rate as worse than killing an abusive father who plans to have you murdered.

From the perspective of the political atmosphere, though, the family is the foundation of one's political position and, consequently, one's security. Families that turn on one another are liable to be destroyed either by each other or by their enemies. That kind of critical and very necessary circling of the wagons mentality is how you get social taboos, and while I'm sure we can think of many potential situations where kinslaying is obviously not the worst of two options or may even be entirely justified, taboos are not known for their nuance.

And there's even a decent reason for that, because without a strict form of effective law enforcement, one of the primary things keeping certain behaviors in check is the belief people have that they shouldn't do them. The more wiggle room that is allowed, the more people are start chipping away at the edges until a lot of behaviors start becoming common enough to undermine the social order as it exists.

Depending on the social order in question, that may not be a terrible thing, but generally speaking, the people with vested interests in the social order, which is most people embedded in them usually, don't tend to like it when things collapse.

It's the same kind of thing with breaking guest right. Without the ability to safely treat with and trust people under agreed upon conditions, a lot of social and political behaviors become impossible. Similarly, in a world where a lot of political power is inherited, killing your relations becomes one of the few means of improving your personal status, which makes that a very scary prospect for people in power and very dangerous for it to be anything but absolutely verboten.

Delta1212 · January 21, 2016

I understand why it bothers him so much, Delta, but when writing a story it really isn't necessary to go over the same point, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in order to have a reader grasp that.

The saying "take it as read" is really incredibly applicable once you reach thrice. After that? Allow a reader to take it as read.

So it's actually Martin's writing that I'm taking issue with in this instance. Repetition can be a good tool for emphasis, but Martin is very fond of it when it comes to Tyrion and it took a very, very powerful "Oh holy shit!" moment and is robbing it of some of its emotional power. Too much repetition just leads to desensitization.

I think in Feast, and then in Dance maybe even moreso in some parts, Martin was shooting for "motif" with certain aspects of his writing and overshot in places.

stillshimpy · January 21, 2016

Well to illustrate how terrible kinslaying is: Tywin wouldn't engage in it.

He clearly hated the hell out of Tyrion and although he tried to let him die of neglect, and then put him in the vanguard in battle reminding me of The Bridge on the River Kwai's "With or without parachute?" moment, Twyin didn't actually ever just have the guy killed and Tywin was a man who had little compunction about stooping to incredibly low levels.

Again, I get what it's bad, I normally agree that it is way, way outside the rules, but it was arguably self-defense too even if Tyrion's motivation was revenge in that moment. Tywin would have figured out some way to round Tyrion back up from the world, so as not to look a fool. Oddly enough it was killing Shae I had the bigger problem with, because he killed her for being exactly what he knew her to be: a paid sexual companion without love for her customers.

ETA:

I think in Feast, and then in Dance maybe even moreso in some parts, Martin was shooting for "motif" with certain aspects of his writing and overshot in places.

That's a good point and likely an accurate one, Delta. I do wish Martin's editor would take a more active role in some instances.

Edited January 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

Avaleigh · January 21, 2016

@Avaleigh:

So it is sufficient that someone's great-great-great-great-great-grandparent has a drop of Valyrian blood for that someone to be a dragonrider? Then all the population of Dragonstone and half of the kingdom and probably Essos too can be dragonriders. This does strain credulity to me. Nettles is the only one in the story not to look a Targ nor to claim she has the blood and the only one to try a different approach, one that doesn't assume the human to be some chosen one, and yet what we as readers should conclude is that she falls exactly in the same category as the rest of Targs and Velaryons and assorted bastards?

RE: dragons and direwolves

We are in the mind of a dragonrider, and we experience nothing even close to what skinchanging is (just like Tyrion childish dreams of riding a dragon are not the same thing as the true dragon dreams Dany experiences in AGoT). All I see is a girl whipping the flank of a beast and then once the whip is gone forcefully steering its head where she wants to go, as if her dragon was some stubborn horse. I'm not denying dragons are linked to magic, only that the 'bond' with their master is something completely different from direwolves, which by the way are in no case 'instantly' possessed by the Stark kids. It's violence the dragons respond to, not some psychic connection with the master. Rhaenys is shown to whip her dragon with a barbed scourge, and she's ridden it for a lifetime.

Because

dragons lived only around the volcanoes in Valyria, so no other Essosi could get a hold on them. Actually, I can flip your argument around: how convenient is that the entire population of the only area with living dragons turned out to be able of dragonriding? That in later times blood magic and spells were used to forcefully bind a dragon to a master tells me that it's not some particular gene in the blood that triggers the bonding (unless Valyrians tried to magically absorb the dragonblood in them, but this must have taken place later, with the Empire already at its apex) . The horn Euron has can tie a dragon to any person through a magic ritual, human sacrifice included, and comes from Valyria where there were many more back in the days of the Freehold.

As for Westerosi, Targ dragons were always few and well locked in the Dragonpit, and most of them were hatched from eggs put in the cradle of babies, so that they could immediately bond: and again, how convenient is that all the dragons hatched this way ended up being ridden by those babies? Not a single one rejected the Targ it was given to. This too in my opinion shows that the 'bond' is closer to what someone can have with a common animal: the dragon got used to the presence of that particular person and in time it didn't rebelled when mounted. But I digress. There's a purpose for all that talk about Targaryens being divine, and that's exaclty to discourage people from trying to rise against them or emulate them. So yeah, we already have at Dragonstone people happy to have their daughters raped by some divine superior being, it's not a stretch to think that the smallfolk would never even presume to try and approach a dragon, let alone attempt to mount it.

I don't think the blood is as far removed from Nettles as you're suggesting. Targaryen looks don't always dominate, that doesn't mean they don't have the blood. I'm just saying that some blood is necessary but that isn't all there is to it. Quentyn was proof enough that it isn't all about the blood. I just think there's every reason to think that Nettles was a dragonseed and little to suggest that she isn't. We simply don't know but given the way the story is progressing it suggests that she had some Targ blood.

Nettles isn't the only dragonrider who doesn't have the typical silver haired purple eyed description. Not only that but it's incorrect that all of the eggs that were placed in the cribs of Targ babies hatched so that the kid could automatically bond to the dragon. There's a point in AWOIAF where it's seen as a bad omen when the egg/cradle thing doesn't work for some Targaryen prince.

I thought the show made it clear that Dany was calling to Drogon and the bond is what brought him to her in her time of need. I also think that the horn only works for people with the right blood. That's why it chars anyone else who has the misfortune to blow it. I think Tyrion might even find out via the horn that he has the right blood.

Aren't there dragon bones all over the planet? I swear there were dragons roaming around outside of the volcanic areas. Either way, the Valyrians spread out and there were dragons around many non-Valyrians and there was more than enough time for somebody to do a Nettles kind of experiment. The idea that there weren't any wild dragons seems almost impossible to me but even if that was the case you still have a situation where you have Ghiscari who would have been more than happy to figure out how to get one of their own but they couldn't do it and the wording in the book is that only the Valyrians figured out how to bind dragons to their will. Blood magic is the most logical conclusion given the emphasis given to blood magic in the series. Blood of the dragon likely has a deeper meaning in my opinion.

I feel like the spell would have been done prior to the height of the empire. I think the spell over the dragons is the likeliest reason for their success.

I see that side of it too but really, why such an emphasis on incest? For a long time there was an argument going around that the Targaryens were the only Valyrians to be into incest but then AWOIAF emphasizes that the dragonlords of Valyria practiced incest to keep the bloodlines pure. This to me also indicates blood magic and the importance that blood will play in the story.

WindyNights · January 21, 2016

In fact, I'd say that Tyrion being the little man with a giant shadow "snarling" in the middle of the "dragons" likely points to the fact that he will be the one to bring PEACE to the realm.

I'd say it's he opposite. Snarling in the midst of it all is not a good thing. It seems more like he'll be in the middle of the conflict doing a bunch of shady things than being some hero. And I don't think that's his role anymore. As GRRM said he's the villain.

Delta1212 · January 21, 2016

Well to illustrate how terrible kinslaying is: Tywin wouldn't engage in it.

He clearly hated the hell out of Tyrion and although he tried to let him die of neglect, and then put him in the vanguard in battle reminding me of The Bridge on the River Kwai's "With or without parachute?" moment, Twyin didn't actually ever just have the guy killed and Tywin was a man who had little compunction about stooping to incredibly low levels.

Again, I get what it's bad, I normally agree that it is way, way outside the rules, but it was arguably self-defense too even if Tyrion's motivation was revenge in that moment. Tywin would have figured out some way to round Tyrion back up from the world, so as not to look a fool. Oddly enough it was killing Shae I had the bigger problem with, because he killed her for being exactly what he knew her to be: a paid sexual companion without love for her customers.

According to the social mores of Westeros, killing Tywin was far and away the worse crime, but in ours (or at the least some segments of ours...), yes, killing Shae is clearly the more heinous of the two.

dragonbone · January 21, 2016

Where do whores go? Perhaps they go to Bravos.

From Feast:

The other whores said that the Sailor’s Wife visited the Isle of the Gods on the days when her flower was in bloom, and knew all the gods who lived there, even the ones that Braavos had forgotten. They said she went to pray for her first husband, her true husband, who had been lost at sea when she was a girl no older than Lanna. “She thinks that if she finds the right god, maybe he will send the winds and blow her old love back to her,” said one-eyed Yna, who had known her longest, “but I pray it never happens. Her love is dead, I could taste that in her blood. If he ever should come back to her, it will be a corpse.”

WindyNights · January 21, 2016

Well the Sailor's wife is definitely not Tysha.

She's more likely to be an old lover of Gerion Lannister's.

Terra Nova · January 21, 2016

I really don't get the whole "no one is as cursed as a kinslayer" thing that Martin has going on here.

In-world it makes sense, just like guest-right: it is to put some boundaries, to gave people the certainty they have nothing to fear from relatives. Otherwise a younger brother may easily kill the older one and seize the lands and titles, or the heir may decide to get rid of his father, and so on... of course, there are cases where the relative is asking for it - I wouldn't have cried if Roose had killed Ramsay after Domeric's death.

Edit: ops, too late ^^'

@Avaleigh:

I just think there's every reason to think that Nettles was a dragonseed and little to suggest that she isn't

As I said, the only evidence could be that she succeeds in taming Sheepstealer, but it's a circular reasoning. I don't think we are ever going to get more infos about Nettles, so based on what we have now I am convinced that she has no Targ blood.

Not only that but it's incorrect that all of the eggs that were placed in the cribs of Targ babies hatched

That wasn't my point, my point is that any dragon that hatched accepted the master. Unless you're suggesting the unborn dragon 'decides' whether to hatch or not depending on how it feels wrt the Targ newborn. But that's not only without textual evidence, it goes against what Dany had to do at the end of AGoT

I thought the show made it clear that Dany was calling to Drogon and the bond is what brought him to her in her time of need.

The show is not canon, and that scene was described as Dany accepting her fate, i.e. dying there (since she even grabbed Missandei's hand in some sort of 'let's be brave in the face of death'. According to the show Dany is immune to fire, which has been denied by Martin on several occasions

I also think that the horn only works for people with the right blood

No evidence of this in the text.

The idea that there weren't any wild dragons seems almost impossible to me

And yet there is no evidence of that sort in the books so far. Of course, the absence of evidence is not evidence of the absence, but sic stantibus rebus we can even assume these wild dragons lived in some wasteland devoid of human presence. Maybe with the velociraptors in Sothoros. Maybe some Ghiscari did tame a dragon but perished against the Freehold and got some late damnatio memoriae from Valyria, lest someone knew riding dragons was possible. Maybe they tried and died: dragons seem pretty fickle to me. Maybe none of them even thought about the idea and when the real dragonriders came it was too late. The old Ghiscari empire was pretty peaceful and based on agriculture, they turned to slavery only after the dragons destroyed forever their plantations. We just do not have infos enough. Maybe we never will. But theories should be based on actual evidence, not the hazy notion that at some point in the future such evidence will pop up

my idea is that poor illiterate uneducated sheperds didn't have the knowledge for magic. I will go as far as to say that, once they realized that the taming was pretty aleatoric, but their power was already growing, they decided to engineer themselves through magic with some shady ritual involving actual dragon blood. At this point, the families with power tried to mantain it through inbreeding. This makes sense. But it doesn't eliminate the possibility for an ordinary person to tame a dragon. 'Blood of the dragon' and stuff like that may be helpful, but it's not the only way. It's like doping to me. And, with many other things, the Targs ended up forgetting the real thing and believing the PR.

Edited January 21, 2016 by Terra Nova

stillshimpy · January 21, 2016

Oh!! That's who Mya was talking about when she asked if I'd gotten to the part with the Sailor's Wife and how some people think that could be Tysha. Well, there's a reason that didn't stand out to me on any level: it doesn't fit.

Also, whereas George R. R. Martin is not writing about a world where the emotional health of a relationship has any bearing he does seem to have some awareness of what constitutes an emotionally healthy love and Tysha praying for Tyrion to be returned to her would be, essentially the opposite of healthy. Tyrion believed her capable of a fairly heinous deceit, not because of anything having to do with her, but because of his own issues in believing himself inherently unlovable. Not only would "I make you responsible for my own emotional damage" be wildly unhealthy, he then participates in punishing her for it

If there is a woman alive who would pray for that to be returned to her life, hopefully the only merciful, compassionate answer a god would give would be to drop a permanent amnesia anvil atop her head as an act of kindness, so she can forget him forever. They knew each other for two weeks, right? Yeah, here's hoping there was zero pining, that she took the gold heaped upon her violated body and bought a ticket to "way the hell away from you fucked up souls" and never looked back.

Avaleigh · January 21, 2016

@Terra Nova--

I was curious enough about Nettles to look at her page in the wiki of asoaif and they have her listed as a dragonseed.

That a person can only bond with one dragon suggests to me that there's a psychological bond as well. I don't think the Stark kids are ever going to be able to bond with more than one direwolf. When we see the instances where dragons reject a dragonrider that isn't their specific rider, to me it's very similar to the direwolves only obeying their masters.

I understand that the show isn't canon that was just how the scene played to me when she looked up and closed her eyes. It seemed like Drogon knew that she needed him and he came to defend her. It reminded me of the direwolves having the instinct to protect their masters.

I think that's what the translation on the horn is going to be about. I wasn't suggesting that it's been proven yet but I think that's where the story is heading. Why show us what the horn does to people unless we're going to eventually see a person who is able to blow it without having it kill them?

I thought

AWOIAF confirmed that there were dragon bones all over the place that predate the Valyrians taking over.

my idea is that poor illiterate uneducated sheperds didn't have the knowledge for magic.

I just flat out disagree with this. There isn't anything that suggests that a person has to be literate or educated to use magic or to tap into some kind of source. To me it isn't any different than some tribe having a ritual that they think is powerful only in this case it really turns out to be.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

Ashara Payne · January 21, 2016

Surely the Dovahkiin's gonna turn up at some point in this story? (In all seriousness I believe Bethesda ripped off some of the themes of ASOIAF and even LOTR a little when they made Skyrim-although ADWD wasn't published when it was in development)

I would imagine that most folks would simply be too scared of dragons to even attempt taming them without some guaranteed reward.

Terra Nova · January 21, 2016

@ Avaleigh:

well, the wiki is made by fan and is even less canon. Actually, I think even AWoIaF is uncanon if it somehow clashes with what written in books - it can be explained by saying Maester Yandel got it wrong -. I never thought about the direwolves being 'magical', only larger more feral wolves. Closer to the daimons of 'His Dark Materials', considered the bonds with the Starks. I always mantained the dragons were the only true magical animals, as hinted by the book 'Dragons, Wyverns and Wyrms: An Unnatural History'. Even the way the eggs hatched in AGoT seems to point that dragons require heat to reproduce, and maybe Targs managed with a little bit of magic (Dragonstone is volcanic though) until the decline

It just looked strange to me that you mentioned the show, since it actually cutifies Drogon a lot, by making him saving Dany and doing the Puss in Boots eyes, opposed to the books where he actively tries to kill her and Dany tames him by sheer willpower, violence, pain and fear

There isn't anything that suggests that a person has to be literate or educated to use magic or to tap into some kind of source

On this we agree, but it seems to me that the mages in Valyria weren't performing that kind of 'shamanic' magic, more a very elaborate one, so powerful to doom them when it got out of control. I don't know, is blood magic that easy to use? Mirri learned from Marwin, who to me seems incredibly educated in such things. The Red Priests seem to require more than a lifetime to master their own magic and vision-in-flame...

nksarmi · January 21, 2016

I'd say it's he opposite. Snarling in the midst of it all is not a good thing. It seems more like he'll be in the middle of the conflict doing a bunch of shady things than being some hero. And I don't think that's his role anymore. As GRRM said he's the villain.

Snarling only means he's aggressive or more to the point - defensive. I think the times that have indicated that he "stood as tall as a king" and the small man with a "giant" shadow indicate that Tyrion is meant for greatness. Plus "good guys" rarely "conquer" or create "peace". Saviors like Jon "save" but only in fairy tales do they marry the princess and rule the realm. Typically they die.

"Great" men are not necessarily "good." And "good rulers" are rarely complete "good" people.

I don't care if GRRM has called Tyrion a villain or not - I think if all this language in regards to him foreshadows anything - it foreshadows him ruling, not being some dragon head (ie secret Targ).

nksarmi · January 21, 2016

Oh and I understand Martin's "rule" about kinslaying - I just think it's BS. The thing is that "guest's rights" is a tradition that extends both ways as I recall. If I remember correctly, you can't go in and claim guest's rights and then slaughter your host. Presumably, you also cannot abuse your host or guest under this "right."

The thing about kinslaying is that it holds nothing up for a reason not to do it (save maybe knowing that your sibling can't kill you for your inheritance). There is no course of action for dealing with abuse or even self-defense. There is no, "you be a good relative and I won't kill you" aspect of it. It is simply "there is non so cursed as a kin slayer." So, Caster marries, rapes, and forces his daughters to bear his incestual children and not a single one of him should murder the bastard in his sleep because it would be "kinslaying"? Really?

In a world where there are absolute rules like "no one is more curses than a kinslayer even if that kin is the worse scum of humanity and visits ever abuse no to man on the person who is doing the killing" how do you NOT end up with Tywin?

Plus it's not like they are extending the whole concept of "kin" very far anyway. I mean, Robert B took the Iron Throne because he had some small amount of Targ blood - which of course means he was related to Rheagar, whom he killed. If the whole kinslaying concept really only applies to immediate family - then the only thing I think you can argue is "no one is as cursed (psychologically) as the emotionally f-ed up people who have to kill a kin." Tyrion is certainly proving that true in Dance anyway.

Avaleigh -

where do you think Ice Dragons fit into your theory. I got the sense that the girl in the Ice Dragon book was from the North if not a Stark.

Avaleigh -

where do you think Ice Dragons fit into your theory. I got the sense that the girl in the Ice Dragon book was from the North if not a Stark.

mac123x · January 21, 2016

understand why it bothers him so much, Delta, but when writing a story it really isn't necessary to go over the same point, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over in order to have a reader grasp that.

Part of my "the show did this better" list -- season 5 condensed his wallowing into a few scenes, and allowed Tyrion to become proactive again. I think part of the reason Tryion is so wallowy has to do with him being on a sloooow path to get to Meereen at the right time in GRRM's narrative. Hence all the detours he takes; otherwise he'd arrive ahead of schedule.

That's a good point and likely an accurate one, Delta. I do wish Martin's editor would take a more active role in some instances.

I've speculated before that GRRM's editor just runs it through spell check a couple of times then slaps a sticky on the front of the galley saying "loved it! Please don't fire me!". Evidently the editor tried to get him to drop a couple of instances of the phrase "words are wind" and he wouldn't. I can't imagine an editor getting any traction with any substantive comments.

stillshimpy · January 21, 2016

I like the way you think, nksarmi because in the case of someone like Craster it never made a whit of sense that none of the women ever got to the "I don't even believe in gods any longer and even if I did? Not really sure I could get much more cursed, but I'm willing to take the chance....because Craster is the biggest kinslayer of them all."

For real, you can't slay your kin slaying kin or else you'll be a kinslayer. Righty-o, but then if you aren't preventing your kin from kinslaying, you're also a kinslayer.

Craster had given away how many babies to be killed and turned into White Walkers? Who knows! But presumably his wives kept a pretty close count. At some point you'd notice that the freaking gods weren't exactly striking him dead, so maybe there wasn't much to this whole "no one is as accursed as a kin slayer!"

Anyway, I'm through Arya's most recent chapter and learned of the slavers hitting up Hardhome and planning on going back. I was at least a little nonplussed by that because...oh yeah, sure. Take wildling women as slaves, that will work out splendidly for all concerned. They might as well have declared them Dany's Amazon Army because of the whole "You can keep a woman, or you can keep a knife" gig.

Also, I did guess that it was the "kindly man" who was beating blind Arya, but I wasn't prepared to find out that apparently she's a skinchanger also, what with the whole "Cat seeing for her".

I have to hang out near my front door in order to catch the UPS driver, so I'm just going to move onto the next chapter.

However, another thing about the whole "Oh the cursed, cursed, accursed Kinslayers" ...yeah, Ramsay killing Bolton's legitimate children and pretty much everyone figuring that out also makes the whole "This is the rule EVERYONE respects" a bunch of bullshit, because again, there are so many reasons that Ramsay would have been killed by his own men already but that just adds to the lengthy, lengthy list.

I've speculated before that GRRM's editor just runs it through spell check a couple of times then slaps a sticky on the front of the galley saying "loved it! Please don't fire me!".

That sincerely made me laugh, partially because it's so clearly true. No one is editing this man. Mya told me there were supposed to be 100 pages more of this book, but Martin's editor said that would make it too long. I asked her if that made it too big to be hurled as an effective weapon or what, because George Martin's editor clearly has no voice in this process any longer, at all.

I never thought I'd be longing for the relatively tight wring style of the first two books, but from arguably the third book on, it really doesn't look like anyone has been editing Martin except errors.

Edited January 21, 2016 by stillshimpy

Delta1212 · January 21, 2016

I like the way you think, nksarmi because in the case of someone like Craster it never made a whit of sense that none of the women ever got to the "I don't even believe in gods any longer and even if I did? Not really sure I could get much more cursed, but I'm willing to take the chance....because Craster is the biggest kinslayer of them all."

For real, you can't slay your kin slaying kin or else you'll be a kinslayer. Righty-o, but then if you aren't preventing your kin from kinslaying, you're also a kinslayer.

Craster had given away how many babies to be killed and turned into White Walkers? Who knows! But presumably his wives kept a pretty close count. At some point you'd notice that the freaking gods weren't exactly striking him dead, so maybe there wasn't much to this whole "no one is as accursed as a kin slayer!"

Anyway, I'm through Arya's most recent chapter and learned of the slavers hitting up Hardhome and planning on going back. I was at least a little nonplussed by that because...oh yeah, sure. Take wildling women as slaves, that will work out splendidly for all concerned. They might as well have declared them Dany's Amazon Army because of the whole "You can keep a woman, or you can keep a knife" gig.

Also, I did guess that it was the "kindly man" who was beating blind Arya, but I wasn't prepared to find out that apparently she's a skinchanger also, what with the whole "Cat seeing for her".

I have to hang out near my front door in order to catch the UPS driver, so I'm just going to move onto the next chapter.

However, another thing about the whole "Oh the cursed, cursed, accursed Kinslayers" ...yeah, Ramsay killing Bolton's legitimate children and pretty much everyone figuring that out also makes the whole "This is the rule EVERYONE respects" a bunch of bullshit, because again, there are so many reasons that Ramsay would have been killed by his own men already but that just adds to the lengthy, lengthy list.

As with all the rules in our own world, I think most of the ones in Westeros that are "hard and fast" are really ones everyone feels obligated to pay lip service to, some people ardently believe in, some people ignore for their own reasons and some people turn a blind eye to the breaking of when it would be inconvenient to enforce them.

Everyone believes in something. Sometimes it's useful to pretend to believe in the same things as other people so that they'll accept you as one of their own. Sometimes it's useful to pretend to believe in something so that other people will accept it as something they should believe in (or act like them believe in, which may ultimately accomplish the same goal). Sometimes people actually believe in things.

The reason that the rules that exist in any world exist as they do is often messy and complicated and rarely fair, and the rules are frequently difficult to objectively critique for the people who have lived with them in one way or another for their whole lives. The rules are the rules. Some you believe in, some you follow because that's just what is done, and some you fight usually because they seem to conflict with one or more of the rules in the aforementioned categories.

WindyNights · January 21, 2016

TBH, I don't think Roose gives a rat's ass that Ramsay killed Domeric. Hell, there's a theory that it wasn't even Ramsay that killed him but Roose who poisoned him. He just blames it on Ramsay because he doesn't want to take the fall.

The reason he poisoned being that he went against his orders to go see Ramsay and for thinking he knew better than his father.

Delta1212 · January 21, 2016

I like the way you think, nksarmi because in the case of someone like Craster it never made a whit of sense that none of the women ever got to the "I don't even believe in gods any longer and even if I did? Not really sure I could get much more cursed, but I'm willing to take the chance....because Craster is the biggest kinslayer of them all."

For real, you can't slay your kin slaying kin or else you'll be a kinslayer. Righty-o, but then if you aren't preventing your kin from kinslaying, you're also a kinslayer.

Craster had given away how many babies to be killed and turned into White Walkers? Who knows! But presumably his wives kept a pretty close count. At some point you'd notice that the freaking gods weren't exactly striking him dead, so maybe there wasn't much to this whole "no one is as accursed as a kin slayer!"

Anyway, I'm through Arya's most recent chapter and learned of the slavers hitting up Hardhome and planning on going back. I was at least a little nonplussed by that because...oh yeah, sure. Take wildling women as slaves, that will work out splendidly for all concerned. They might as well have declared them Dany's Amazon Army because of the whole "You can keep a woman, or you can keep a knife" gig.

Also, I did guess that it was the "kindly man" who was beating blind Arya, but I wasn't prepared to find out that apparently she's a skinchanger also, what with the whole "Cat seeing for her".

I have to hang out near my front door in order to catch the UPS driver, so I'm just going to move onto the next chapter.

However, another thing about the whole "Oh the cursed, cursed, accursed Kinslayers" ...yeah, Ramsay killing Bolton's legitimate children and pretty much everyone figuring that out also makes the whole "This is the rule EVERYONE respects" a bunch of bullshit, because again, there are so many reasons that Ramsay would have been killed by his own men already but that just adds to the lengthy, lengthy list.

That sincerely made me laugh, partially because it's so clearly true. No one is editing this man. Mya told me there were supposed to be 100 pages more of this book, but Martin's editor said that would make it too long. I asked her if that made it too big to be hurled as an effective weapon or what, because George Martin's editor clearly has no voice in this process any longer, at all.

I never thought I'd be longing for the relatively tight wring style of the first two books, but from arguably the third book on, it really doesn't look like anyone has been editing Martin except errors.

The editor gets to tell Martin when the book becomes literally too big to publish in a single volume, and then helps him figure out which material to move to the next book. I don't think anything gets cut except when GRRM decides he doesn't want to include it himself.

bobbybuilderton · January 21, 2016

And when grrm posted updating the progress on the next book, his editor tweeted "now you know everything I know" with a link to the post. The information contained in that post seemed minimal considering she's his editor. I'd expect her to have more information than "yeah, he keeps saying he's a couple months away from finishing"

Terra Nova · January 21, 2016

In fairness though, Craster's Horror Show involves so much mental abuse - not to mention some of the girls born and bred there do not know anything of the outer world, of what society expects of a father and what is right or wrong - that I don't think it makes a great example. Heck, there are cases in real life of women segregated and abused for years by a male figure, often in 'normal' neighborhoods, and most of them never try to escape or kill the bastard (nor the neighbors ever notice there's something wrong).

In Craster case, the 'gods' he claims to serve are the Others themselves, so the poor women see the gods descending on their keep end exacting sacrifices without striking down Craster - if anything, this shows them that he got it right and earned the icy seal of approval!

Avaleigh · January 21, 2016

@nksarmi--

I get the impression that ice dragons are connected to the Others based on their description. In the Ice Dragon story, the girl has skin that's cold to the touch and that made me think of the woman who was involved with the Night's King.

I'm not convinced that any character will ride an ice dragon although I do think that we'll eventually see one in the story. If we do get someone riding an ice dragon my first guess would be Bran. Sansa and Rickon would be my other choices but I don't think any of these scenarios are likely.

I definitely think Jon will ride Rhaegal.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

stillshimpy · January 22, 2016

Okay, so I read Theon's chapter and understood throughout that it was the Wildling women killing men there, which was awesome. However, it was one of those times that only an act of will kept me from skipping forward to the next Theon chapter, because I didn't want the chapter to stop there.

Bran sort of communicating through the Weirwood was pretty darned awesome, I thought. It's also kind of nice to see a little echo of Theon in there. Wishing he could die in battle, admitting to himself that he was taken as a hostage, but treated as a ward. The growing tensions between the men. The fact that you really can't frighten, bully and brutalize people into anything resembling real loyalty.

So that was the first Winterfell chapter I just enjoyed entirely without reservation and here's another thing I'm always meaning to say and then get distracted from saying: I love the fact that Martin has created so many songs that I've actually ended up knowing the words to. Sure I grouse that the guy has a tendency towards redundancy and too much repetition, but there are some things that he does better than any writer I've ever seen.

One of them is creating a world that feels real despite things like Dragons, skin changers, seemingly sentient trees and the walking dead. When the Bear and the maiden fair was the song they were playing, all of the instance it has been used in to create such a spooky atmosphere came to mind. Like when the Jester was yodeling his brains out to cover Sansa's exchange with Lady Olenna. It's just that whole, "A Bear, A Bear!" thing always seems to be the thing Martin whips out to signal that some shit of an important nature is going down.

The show used the Rains of Castamere to great effect but it's the Bear and the Maiden Fair that tends to really signal that the shit is about to go down.

The one thing I really wasn't clear on was who Theon ran into out in the snow and I wondered if it was Mance or not. However, Abel is Mance and Theon could hear music, so Mance should have been in the hall.

Edited January 22, 2016 by stillshimpy

Delta1212 · January 22, 2016

Yeah, I have to say that one thing that I really appreciate is the fact that Martin is very good at peppering his story with cultural and historical information in a way that then let's him make references to those bits of cultural information where it would be useful without having to explain the reference in that moment in the same way that a piece of writing related to the real world can make historical or pop culture allusions and rely on the audience knowing what is being referenced without having to explain it in detail, which is a tool that is usually missing in the toolbox of a fantasy writer and that goes a long way towards making the world of ASoIaF seem more grounded.

Alayne Stone · January 22, 2016

The Hooded Man (as he has come to be known as in the fandom) is the subject of much speculation. I have no flipping idea who he is myself, but that short exchange between him and Theon sure was interesting.

And yay, I'm glad you are finally able to walk away from a chapter and be happy about it! This is the stuff we were telling you about earlier as far as being some of the best chapters in the series. The tension is completely amped up in the Winterfell/Wall/Northern storylines. I think those are by far the best parts of ADwD.

Pretty sure things start to get amped up from here on out too. Lots of good stuff coming.

I bet Shimpy's going to be super disappointed by the fact that BOTH the battle of Ice and the battle of Fire are left on cliffhangers with no resolution. And I can't wait to see her flip out over the Pink Letter and be like whaaaaaaaa?

Delta1212 · January 22, 2016

Alayne,

The fact that we don't know who that is still might be considered a spoiler at this point?

Mya Stone · January 22, 2016

Alayne,

The fact that we don't know who that is still might be considered a spoiler at this point?

She knows that he's speculated about because I'm an idiot with a big mouth. ;)

WindyNights · January 22, 2016

Some think the Hooded Man is Harwin and Cat's spy on Winterfell , others think he's the Blackfish and some think he's Howland Reed.

Regardless I think he's someone connected to the BwB.

Autarch · January 22, 2016

The most hilarious pick for the hooded man is that it's Theon himself; Theon Durden it's been called.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Autarch

stillshimpy · January 22, 2016

Mya and I talked a little bit about that theory -- that it is Theon -- and I confess that one makes the least sense to me. It would be a strange concept to introduce this late in the series without any precedent. The manner in which he encounters the man really suggests, to me, that's there's actually a man there and it's lacking any oddities that might mark it as super natural. It's a fairly straight forward "Oh there's a man there, who could it be?" encounter.

I think the Brotherhood with Bankroll makes the most sense to me as a possibility of "Who the hell is that?" but there's no description or telltale signs of "A strangely familiar figure" or any mention that make the "It's Past Theon, Judging the Present Theon" thing make sense to me. I do think it's cool that there are such widely varied theories about him, but it was such a fairly bland encounter that I didn't even form a view...and you know, that's fairly unusual in and of itself, because usually I will freaking commit to some kind of "I think .....this!" and then write eight thousand words about it.

But that was an instance of "Oh, who's that?" I went back over it a few times and there's so little description in it that it was a case of *blank* "I guess there will be more to come on that....?" but learning there are all kinds of theories on that, I guess that there won't be yet.

I really did have to fight down the urge to just go find the next Winterfell chapter, particularly when I scrolled to the next chapter and ...oh goody, Tyrion.

Oh jeez. I decided to call it a night on reading then and there. Of course I want just terrible things to befall the Boltons and Freys, so here's hoping.

Dev F · January 22, 2016

I disagree that Tyrion is given an "out" if Tywin isn't his biological father. That's like saying that Ned Stark isn't Jon's father even though we know that Rhaegar is likely his bio dad.

But with Ned and Jon, the two aspects of the story are in perfect counterpoint -- Jon may in fact have been sired by Rhaegar, but Ned raised him as his own, and thus he became Ned's son regardless of his parentage. If Aerys is Tyrion's father, the storylines don't harmonize in the same way; they step all over each other: "Tywin always acted as if Tyrion wasn't truly his son, but that doesn't change the fact that he was more of Tywin's son than anyone, except that he actually wasn't Tywin's son, which is why he acted as if he wasn't in the first place." That's not at all elegant or interesting; it just adds superfluous plot-related explanations (Tywin hates Tyrion because he suspects he's someone else's son!) for things that already have more interesting psychological explanations (Tywin hates Tyrion because it wounds his pride to imagine he was responsible for siring an embarrassing freak of a child who killed his beloved wife).

Which isn't to say I don't think Martin will go there. One of the reasons the last two books have left me so cold is because I see him resorting to this kind of storytelling more and more, where the story emerges from external forces -- all of the eight thousand different characters pinging against each other's plots and counter-plots like billiard balls -- instead of the largely internal pressure of their personal psychologies.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Dev F

Terra Nova · January 22, 2016

I loved the Northern Lords basically saying "the weather outside is frightful! (But Bolton's food is delightful!) And since we've no place to go, let it snow let it snow let it snow"

And Manderly being Manderly.

And Theon recovering some part of himself, to the point that in the hall he wantedagain to make some jape (laughter being his weapon, and his weakness, since book one).
Of course, one of my favourite scene in the book (Theon in the godswood) was never brought to screen ^^' it's baffling since season 2 storyline for Theon was incredibly well-adapted and consistent. I am sure that Alfie Allen would have done beautifully in a silent scene in front of the tree. Heck, they could have put the faint echo of Bran's voice so audience would have remembered he still existed. Side-lined in their own storyline, by D&D, on HBO this Spring!

Re: next Theon chapter

I fear Shimpy will put off for good as soon as she reads 'with him or... the dog...' ^^'

Edited January 22, 2016 by Terra Nova

WindyNights · January 22, 2016

But with Ned and Jon, the two aspects of the story are in perfect counterpoint -- Jon may in fact have been sired by Rhaegar, but Ned raised him as his own, and thus he became Ned's son regardless of his parentage. If Aerys is Tyrion's father, the storylines don't harmonize in the same way; they step all over each other: "Tywin always acted as if Tyrion wasn't truly his son, but that doesn't change the fact that he was more of Tywin's son than anyone, except that he actually wasn't Tywin's son, which is why he acted as if he wasn't in the first place." That's not at all elegant or interesting; it just adds superfluous plot-related explanations (Tywin hates Tyrion because he suspects he's someone else's son!) for things that already have more interesting psychological explanations (Tywin hates Tyrion because it wounds his pride to imagine he was responsible for siring an embarrassing freak of a child who killed his beloved wife).

Which isn't to say I don't think Martin will go there. One of the reasons the last two books have left me so cold is because I see him resorting to this kind of storytelling more and more, where the story emerges from external forces -- all of the eight thousand different characters pinging against each other's plots and counter-plots like billiard balls -- instead of the largely internal pressure of their personal psychologies.

I don't think that's accurate to say he resorted to this. If Tyrion is Aerys' son then it's definitely been something he's had in his head since book one.

Also I'm not sure if we're really supposed to think that Tywin actually thinks Tyrion is someone else's. I think Tyrion and Tywin's comments are just foreshadowing and irony if it turns out to be true.

Furthermore, Tywin does pull out the "because you're my son" card with Tyrion at the end of AGOT when he gives up Jaime for dead and has no way around it.

Edited January 22, 2016 by WindyNights

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