A Letter to the Turkish Embassy: The Behind the Scenes Drama of Downton

[Eolivet]

I'm bringing this discussion to this thread, because it's what Sybil-- er, the mods would've wanted.

 

Is there any indication that if the show wasn't *Downton Abbey* that an actor with a three season contract giving his notice at the beginning of the third season is unreasonable and unfair? Because you're saying Stevens gave unreasonably short notice when he gave notice at the *beginning* of season three.

 

When five scripts were already written. Yes, for a normal show, it's plenty of notice (it's the notice I believe The Good Wife producers had for Charles), but Stevens effectively gave his notice at episode 6 of 9, since 1-5 was already written. So, if he never planned on staying beyond season 3, the end of season 2 would've been fine. Heck, mention it after the Christmas Special is done filming -- at least then Fellowes has 9 episodes, not 4 to kill him. That's why I say he followed the letter, not the spirit of the law -- because on a 22-episode season, the beginning of the season is fine to give your notice...not so much on a 9-episode season. And if I knew Fellowes wrote the first 5 episodes before filming started, certainly Dan Stevens did.

 

So, there were two people who planned on leaving at the end of season 3: one where Fellowes had pretty much a year to write her out (and it's obvious to me watching season 2 back that Fellowes knew by 2x06 that Brown Findlay was leaving -- Sybil goes from lukewarm feelings for Tom to "Just kidding! I'm ready to be with you!" at 2x06, to married and pregnant by the Christmas Special) and one where he had 4 episodes. And those 4 episodes came with a couple important caveats: 1) he'd just killed one major character the episode prior, and 2) he needed Mary to be pregnant before Matthew could die, and she wasn't yet.

 

I'd also point out that Sybil got a pretty shitty write out despite how much time she gave Fellowes to work with.

 

I found Sybil's death to be one of the very best episodes the show has ever done -- with command performances from Brown Findlay, McGovern and Leech. Knowing what was going on behind the scenes, you can see the puppet strings at work: Sybil was shuffled offscreen in preparation for her departure, got married and pregnant, and then came back to Downton at the end so she could die onscreen with her loved ones -- not in the streets of Ireland somewhere.

 

It can't possibly be that he didn't do a very good job and followed it up by stating the octogenarian character would never die on the show and would simply "go on vacation" could it?

 

Again, I think Fellowes has written great deaths. William's death was incredibly touching, as was Sybil's. Vera's death was shocking, as was Pamuk's. Only Matthew's death was bad. And while fans may have hated Sybil's death, I think the media thought it was well-done. Only fans and the media alike thought Matthew's death was ridiculous -- because it was. But Fellowes took a metric ton of crap for it, so again, I don't blame him in the slightest for saying "No more deaths ever again!"

 

To bring it back - I agree with you that there are certain things Fellowes just isn't going to say but really, if the show isn't being cancelled, why not say so?

 

Because he cannot say so. It's not his decision, it's the network's decision to pull a TV show from the schedule. ITV should say something, I agree -- but until they do, Fellowes and Neame have to keep deflecting questions, because they literally do not have that kind of power.

[ZoloftBlob]

You're applying an unreasonable standard - that because Fellowes can't adjust his methods and won't allow anyone to help him write, and functions unlike the vast majority of other tv shows, that he's justified in holding his cast to unreasonable standards. I'm sorry, but it's unreasonable to say Stevens gave short notice. Likewise - if members of the current cast have told Fellowes they are leaving as Season Six starts filming, they aren't giving short notice. You're calling Stevens unprofessional when you claim he gave short notice. Further, he had a three year contract and was apparently voicing his displeasure. If Fellowes is such a master of control, you'd think he would have had some concerns about it. Finally, in all seriousness, how do you know when Stevens made the decision to leave? You're claiming he knew in mid season two he was quitting, that he intentionally chose to wait until filming for season three started. What evidence is there that he was that firmly decided? From a letter of the law standpoint, Stevens was within his rights to say nothing until the season three Xmas episode was written. That, I would have considered pretty asshole. Telling his employer at the start of the third year of his three year contract that he wasn't going to do a year four is not.

 

To be honest, I thought William's death was gratuitous and ridiculous - the implication of his inability to breath was that he got a dose of the mustard gas which makes no sense since he was with Matthew, who had no lung issues at all, and his entire story arc was pathetic (He wants to fight, and have a girl, gets killed, and the whole time the girl is lying to him). Vera's death by suicidal arsenic pie was ridiculous. I grant Pamuk's death was awesome, if soap opera-ish. Sybil's death actually could have been prevented if Fellowes was willing to alter his process - he's got a script where Sybil dies and now his male lead is leaving.... Hmmm.... why not have a last minute change to the script and let Sybil live and send the kids off to America, knowing that they have to kill the male lead four episodes later? Oh right, there's no altering the writing process of Julian Fellowes.

 

There's a pattern of ITV and Fellowes insisting on secrecy when it's really unnecessary. Everyone knows the contracts are coming up - there should be some understanding that people are going to ask.

Edited March 22, 2015 by ZoloftBlob

[SusanSunflower]

 

Everyone knows the contracts are coming up - there should be some understanding that people are going to ask.

Yes, did Daisy Lewis "decide" to leave or did Fellowes always intend for her character to go off in a taxi cab?  or did he write Sarah Bunting in such a way that the audience hated her.  Was she supposed to be Tom's new wife -- with whom he and Sybbie were supposed to sail off to America?  Did Fellowes  -- gasp -- change course or not.? 

 

Even if everyone in the current cast agreed to stay put for 3 more seasons (let's just pretend) the foundations for the ending of some of these story lines should have begun to be laid -- rather than spending last season (6) with Violet and Isobel's and Mary's all-for-naught romances and Edith's "right back where she started" baby saga.  -- I.e. all out of left field (like Matthew's and Sybil's death), no looking ahead/laying foundation as if the show would /could run forever. Three more seasons -- even at a galloping 5 years per season -- takes us only to the eve of WWII and 3 more seasons would not be "good teevee" if all we did was watch loose ends being tied up --  Mary with her new suitor, Isobel marry Clarkson, have Violet get older or die, and watch the children grow up, have Daisy finally decide about the farm, see Molesley and Baxter do whatever, Thomas whatever, Hughes and ... etc. IOW, tying up the current loose ends would not suffice to fill 3 more seasons interestingly. 

 

Blaming Stevens' "abrupt departure" is not supported by subsequent writing, character and story development. 

Edited March 22, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[ZoloftBlob]

Yeah, I mean, if we allow Jessica Brown Findlay gave "Julian Fellowes Accepted Notice" - then why has Tom literally done nothing but tend Robert's dog and dither for 2 and 1/2 seasons?

 

Since this is technically the Matthew thread and not the media thread, here's a Matthew topic. Am I the only one who kinda wanted him and Thomas to have an illicit PTSD filled affair?

[Eolivet]

This is the Dan Stevens and the Matthew thread, so it can be both.

 

You're applying an unreasonable standard - that because Fellowes can't adjust his methods and won't allow anyone to help him write, and functions unlike the vast majority of other tv shows, that he's justified in holding his cast to unreasonable standards. I'm sorry, but it's unreasonable to say Stevens gave short notice.

 

I don't understand how that's an unreasonable standard when it's the standard on the show where Stevens was contracted.The former NCIS showrunner was getting scripts to actors something like a day before shooting -- Fellowes gets his written six months or whatever ahead of time. That's not unreasonable -- the network is probably thrilled. All networks probably wish their writers had the scripts done six months in advance (and the actors do, too).

 

If Fellowes had previously been like the NCIS showrunner and getting scripts to the cast a day before filming and then suddenly in season 3 went "Hey, wait -- I wrote five episodes already," that would be one thing. But this was known as early as season 2, and even season 1 (I think he wrote the first 3 and mentioned how much Siobhan Finnernan brought O'Brien to life, so he wrote more for her as season 1 progressed).

 

But no, we don't know exactly when Stevens gave his notice -- everyone has said "beginning of season 3." It always sounded like beginning of filming, because that would be when season 3 began. Season 3 started filming in March -- Stevens got a new agent in February, and then got the Broadway show, so that timing always made sense that it would be March he told the show...when five scripts had already been written, which every last cast member knew was the Downton way. But you're right, I don't know for sure.

 

You're claiming he knew in mid season two he was quitting, that he intentionally chose to wait until filming for season three started.

 

Not exactly...I think he hedged his bets. He didn't get the Broadway show until I believe February, maybe January. I don't think he liked being on Downton, but had no other alternative, and then one came up. I still think it was short notice when 5 out of 9 scripts were written on day 1 of filming. But I guess we don't know the exact timing for sure. I disagree that expressing annoyance with Downton meant Fellowes should've known he would leave, because Maggie Smith expressed annoyance with Downton since day 1 and she's still here.

 

Sybil's death actually could have been prevented if Fellowes was willing to alter his process - he's got a script where Sybil dies and now his male lead is leaving.... Hmmm.... why not have a last minute change to the script and let Sybil live and send the kids off to America, knowing that they have to kill the male lead four episodes later?

 

I don't understand this at all. Violet going on an indefinite vacation is unbelievable, but Sybil abandoning her husband to go to America is fine? You might as well argue why Mary wasn't in the car with Matthew and they were both killed?

 

I am more willing to agree it was just a complete cluster-whatever of a situation: an actor deciding to leave on a show at the beginning of the season when the writer had already completed 5 scripts. That it was just unfortunate that Stevens made up his mind close to the start of filming, when 5 scripts had already been written. But blaming Fellowes for either not being a mind-reader that Stevens would actually leave or not throwing 5 scripts out the window to make Sybil abandon her marriage, so the audience won't be sick of death by the time Matthew takes a dirt nap...I don't get that at all.

 

At this point, I wish they'd never killed Matthew in this way. I wish he'd had an affair and abandoned a pregnant Mary at the end of season 3, and then shown a telegram in season 4 that he was dead and George was the heir. Then everyone -- not just me and Fellowes -- would be glad that his name is never spoken.

[ZoloftBlob]

I've asked before - what is reasonable notice to you? And why Dan Stevens an actor, held to a different standard than other actors? He told his producer at the beginning of his third season's filming that he wasn't coming back for season four. Rumor has it a season of DA takes six months to film. Yes it was a big story problem but its not insurmountable. Take David Caruso - who Stevens gets compared to, or Shelley Long, also compared to Stevens - they were both deemed franchise players, and both left incredibly popular shows.... and the show runners adapted and moved on. Hell, Caruso walked off after filming four episodes of the second season of NYPD Blue - that's *short notice*. NYPD Blue was a huge hit AFTER.

 

I don't blame Fellowes for not being a mind reader but I do get to blame him for his unwillingness to be flexible in the slightest. The process you're describing that the network should be delighted in is completely different than most other shows.

 

At this point, I wish they'd never killed Matthew in this way. I wish he'd had an affair and abandoned a pregnant Mary at the end of season 3, and then shown a telegram in season 4 that he was dead and George was the heir. Then everyone -- not just me and Fellowes -- would be glad that his name is never spoken.

I respectfully point out that Fellowes had every opportunity to do just that and instead went with passive aggressive "Mosely is the punching bag stand in for He Who Must Not Be Named".

 

I'm being snarky but really - the average viewer (my mom for example) has no idea why Stevens left the show and since he's not a studio slave he had every right to leave and this is the only show where giving notice at the beginning of season three that you were leaving at the end was the equivalent of walking off the set in a huff and never returning. And the reality that Stevens has been continually working since Downton is the proof I need that it wasn't considered an unprofessional exit.

 

On a different note:

 

He and Thomas having an illicit affair, with Mary eventually finding out but being forced to keep it quiet because of the family's reputation, Matthew deciding to end it in the interest of having a civil Mary, Thomas applying what he learned from the Duke and blackmailing Matthew...idk how it would all end but I would have enjoyed the hell out of something like that.

 

See that would have been pretty compelling... how do you continue a relationship with a wife and a lover who has blackmailish tendencies.

[photo fox]

A catch-all topic for behind the scenes feuds, rumors, etc. Speculation welcome.

"Real" news or official announcements should go in the media thread. Think of this as the National Enquirer, and the media topic as Variety.

All that said, the main rule of this topic is "keep it fun". If you find yourself saying the same thing over and over again, hop off that train and watch out for the Bus of Justice.

[Badger]

Yes, but Mary and Matthew, as well as Tom and Sybil, were set up as couples who were each the great loves of each other's lives.  I think you could say the same thing about Robert and Cora.  Sp the idea that suddently Matthew would turn gay for no reason is ridiculous.  Or that suddently he would want a divorce is also ridiculous. The reason Matthew had to die was because that was the only realistic situation.  You can quibble about how that was done, but when Dan Stevens left, Matthew's fate was sealed.

 

I don't think JF necessarily thought Dan was going to renew his contract.  However, I do think he thought he might agree to do a scene or two in the Season 4 opener before being killed off.  

[ZoloftBlob]

The gay musing was more about a possible what if storyline (ie more of a "Matthew" topic than Dan Stevens)

 

I totally agree that if a recasting was completely out of the question - and I accept that there are *problems* with that idea although its done in soap operas which lets be honest, Downton is - then Matthew had to die.

 

I think Fellowes *really wanted* Stevens to come back for one episode of season four and I am genuinely curious what that would have looked like since Fellowes makes such a big deal how he wanted that one episode so badly. I've read the script book for season three and there's no mention of what this episode would have looked like and as near as I can tell, they didn't do a script book for season four (which makes me more curious) . There's been no indication from Stevens that he ever wavered or reconsidered giving notice, and even Fellowes seems to indicate that no matter what was offered, Stevens said he was done.

 

My vibe? Based on the media articles how there's to be no mention of Mary's nameless husband on the show? If Fellowes is that angry two years later despite the show still being quite successful, that he's willing to ignore and avoid natural moments like his favorite character actually mentioning her husband by name, then I can guess why Stevens didn't want to come back for one last episode in season four

[saki]

I don't know whether it's a legal/official thing or just convention but, in the UK, it absolutely isn't only up to the TV network to decide on what happens to a show.  If Julian Fellows decides he doesn't want to write another season, it would be highly unusual - I can't think of it ever happening - for the network to decide to hire another writer to continue it.  So, in a way, he does have a certain amount of power.  Of course, the decision to stop can also be taken by the network.  I.e. either JF or the network can decide to stop the show.

 

I think it's up to the powers that be to make sure that contracts are written such as to give the writer the notice that he needs to adjust scripts if someone wants to leave - I don't think it's ok to expect an actor to give more notice than contractually necessary.  Of course, like with any job, if you've made your decision and can let your employer know early, you should, but I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that Dan Stevens did make his decision earlier than he informed the show.

Edited March 26, 2015 by saki

[Constantinople]

I totally agree that if a recasting was completely out of the question - and I accept that there are *problems* with that idea although its done in soap operas which lets be honest, Downton is - then Matthew had to die.

Which is one of the reasons why I don't have any problem with Dan Stevens giving notice at the start of Season 3.

Season 3 had 9 episodes if you include the Christmas special. If the scripts for the first 4 episodes are written when filming starts, that's plenty of time to incorporate Mathew's sudden death. One more episode at the start of Season 4 won't make any difference. You could have a cheesy cliffhanger in the Season 3 Christmas special about whether or not Matthew lives, only to show him die in the first episode of Season 4. But you could accomplish the same thing by starting Season 4 with Matthew's funeral.

I also don't know how they could credibly explain Matthew's absence except by his death. You can't go the sickness/coma route since it wouldn't have any credibility after Matthew' miraculous reovery in SEason 2. Matthew running off just doesn't seem in character. Matthew and Mary might move to London if Matthew were elected to Parliament, but Michelle Dockery wasn't leaving the show.

Nor do I care if Dan Steven's notice caused Fellowes to "rush" Matthew's departure. Given how slowly Molasses Abbey usually unfolds, I wouldn't mind a few more "rushed" stories.

[Eolivet]

Which is one of the reasons why I don't have any problem with Dan Stevens giving notice at the start of Season 3.

Season 3 had 9 episodes if you include the Christmas special. If the scripts for the first 4 episodes are written when filming starts, that's plenty of time to incorporate Mathew's sudden death. One more episode at the start of Season 4 won't make any difference. You could have a cheesy cliffhanger in the Season 3 Christmas special about whether or not Matthew lives, only to show him die in the first episode of Season 4. But you

could accomplish the same thing by starting Season 4 with Matthew's funeral.

 

That...is absolutely a fair point.

 

I don't know why I never thought, in all my posts about this, that Fellowes absolutely was not locked into season 3 as a deadline for killing Matthew. Heck, Matthew could've been in a coma until the middle of season 4 with just a stand-in. I mean, if "Glee" can hire a Jayma Mays lookalike to shoot the back of her head during an episode because Emma has to be there and they can't get/don't feel like paying the actress, Matthew could've clung to life until season 4 if Fellowes needed more time to write him out.

 

It's funny to think about it now, because for all of Fellowes' insistence that he wanted Stevens back for one episode of season 4, I actually think the ratings would've suffered greatly if that had happened. Yes, people were irritated that Matthew's death ruined their Christmas (or...mid-February), but it was the greatest thing for the show because it allowed the audience time to adjust and the show an opening to move on. After all, it had been 10 months since the scene had aired when season 4 started. Had Stevens actually agreed to come back and die in the first episode of season 4, it would've cast a pall over the whole season (and if that's not depressing enough, stick around, viewers -- have you met Mr. Green yet?)