Philizabeth, aka Мишежда

sistermagpie · March 13, 2018

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So Liz's mom wouldn't need to "agree" because those were the rules. As for how she'd know the circumstances? That would be problematic in many ways, run into a survivor? She probably only knew what she was told.

Right, that's basically what I meant. As far as Elizabeth's mother was concerned, he was a deserter and a coward. The details of what really happened to him wouldn't matter even if she did know them, which there'd be no reason she would. And it's not like she would have tried to find out even she could imo.

Though another poster once thought this was a flaw in the show in terms of Elizabeth seeming to only learn this fact when she was older. She thought this would be something she would have grown up knowing because it affected her life.

Umbelina · March 13, 2018

Well, it was a shock to me to realize how Stalin defined desertion and cowardice, so, by allied rules, as you said, he may not have been either.

As far as Philip's town? Probably had to send men, and was possibly short on whatever supplies Moscow would sporadically send, but he was far too north and east to be touched. Although some of those prisoners could have been soldiers who were captured or surrendered during the war.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · March 13, 2018

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

As far as Philip's town? Probably had to send men, and was possibly short on whatever supplies Moscow would sporadically send, but he was far too north and east to be touched. Although some of those prisoners could have been soldiers who were captured or surrendered during the war.

Commenting on this in the Philip thread...

Umbelina · March 13, 2018

Quote

Once the Soviet government regained control of the situation, Stalin issued order #270 which stated that soldiers were prohibited from surrendering or retreating, and any soldier who did surrender to the Germans or retreat was to be shot as a traitor when captured. The worst clause, however, was that if any Red Army soldier was captured or retreated, the family of that soldier would be denied food and/or arrested and sent to the Gulag.

https://www.ranker.com/list/stomach-churning-things-about-soviet-gulags/daveesons

This crosses over into both threads, Philip's and this one, so I'm putting it here. I forgot that part I bolded above, that may explain some of Liz's mom's hatred toward her husband.

In addition, this has some specifics about Gulags that might explain while the gangs were after Philip, AND, shoes (remember his dad brought some home, didn't he?) were often used as food, boiled for the leather, and were frequently stolen for that reason. More obviously, at link. Families did come along in many cases apparently. Keep in mind, most inside Gulag's weren't criminals, and might not even be political. Stalin needed free labor.

Edited March 13, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · March 13, 2018

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

This crosses over into both threads, Philip's and this one, so I'm putting it here. I forgot that part I bolded above, that may explain some of Liz's mom's hatred toward her husband.

That makes me wonder why Liz and her mom didn't seem to ever face any punishment for her father. Her mother was a party secretary, iirc.

Though I mostly still just wonder how, if we're to believe Philip's family was hated because his father was a guard, Philip himself seemed went through life blissfully assuming his dad was a logger. But then, I also wonder how Philip's father died and what happened next and I've stopped having confidence that they think it's important enough to tell us.

Umbelina · March 13, 2018

Maybe they did, and Liz was too young to know or realize it.

Erin9 · April 13, 2018

I’m so looking forward to seeing what happens with Oleg/Philip. I hope it proves worth waiting for. It’s natural for Philip to support reform, better living conditions for his people, peace, a better world for his children. And I think he’ll see this as looking out for Elizabeth. I think it’s the right thing for Philip.

But I don’t see how this can do anything but destroy what’s left of their marriage. And I hate that. But- I also know this show could throw a lot of curveballs in 7 hours. Somehow someway- I’d like to see their relationship saved, but still allow Philip to follow his conscience.

He’s already getting information out of Elizabeth. I don’t think that’s an accident.

sistermagpie · April 13, 2018

9 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

But I don’t see how this can do anything but destroy what’s left of their marriage. And I hate that. But- I also know this show could throw a lot of curveballs in 7 hours. Somehow someway- I’d like to see their relationship saved, but still allow Philip to follow his conscience.

It seems like that's the challenge that's obviously being set up here so it can't just be impossible. You don't spend years writing a show about a marriage and then you skip 3 years so you can say "And now the marriage has died but they're still married technically. Here's ten episodes of that until they're separated forever by death or jail."

Even in 3 episodes we've gone from Philip and Elizabeth seemingly leading separate lives and not speaking at the end of their separate days to both of them clearly not really handling their separate lives as well as they're pretending and Philip spying again. Sure he's spying on Elizabeth, but in doing that he's starting a conversation on her favorite subject, saving the USSR. Even arguing over Paige let Elizabeth talk to Philip about her mission. She couldn't tell him the details, but she certainly didn't scold Paige for blabbing whatever she knew to Philip.

Obviously Elizabeth would be pissed that she's being spied on. But I can't help but feel she'd actually feel a little relieved that Philip actually is still following her around and pulling his usual crazy rebellious shit against the USSR. She's adamantly against what he's doing, but that's at least a little bit because she has no other choice. When Philip talks about what's in the paper now, she's hearing it as Philip being out of it so what the hell does he know? But the truth is that once again the two of them are the only people in the world in their position: tapped as the ones who have to do a special mission for the USSR. He hasn't abandoned her or the USSR. Even his terrible, no-good opinions about the future are currently the only thing in her life that encourages her to stop being so terrified of change and maybe even consider another way.

Of course none of this could happen without major conflict, but looking past that there's just a lot here that says they need each other as much as ever. Otherwise there wouldn't really be anything to lose.

Erin9 · April 13, 2018

Very true. All of it.

I read someone say they thought part of the point of Philip struggling with the travel agency is to parallel Elizabeth’s spy struggles: they work better as a team and need each other to succeed. I like that idea. But I hope we’re about done with the travel agency issue. Seems like there’s so much to do. And so little time.

sistermagpie · April 13, 2018

12 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I read someone say they thought part of the point of Philip struggling with the travel agency is to parallel Elizabeth’s spy struggles: they work better as a team and need each other to succeed. I like that idea. But I hope we’re about done with the travel agency issue. Seems like there’s so much to do. And so little time.

Yes, and I wonder if they're doing a parallel with Henry/Philip with Paige/Elizabeth as well. That is, if Philip tells Henry about the cash flow problems that might affect his education, that's a problem with the regular dad/child situation. It brings Henry into the professional side just as Elizabeth is bringing Paige in. Or maybe have Henry as the entitled American kid who's mad at his parent failing him contrasted to Paige seeming to live to get her mother's approval.

I mean, that's a classic immigrant parent story that they've never dealt with so head on. That is really having a parent who grew up with nothing having a kid who can't appreciate all he's got. That again would be a bit like Paige in that Elizabeth is constantly telling Paige how easy she has it and Paige keeps insisting that she understands that and admires it, but in reality she doesn't seem to get it at all, which is why even in dangerous situations she feels too safe.

Umbelina · May 26, 2018

Erin9 · May 26, 2018

I loved that Elizabeth grabbed the REAL wedding rings before running! Made my night. Given how Elizabeth had left things with Philip- talking to Andre and atone for lying and spying on her, that moment was so needed and so telling. It said more than any words. Well short of telling Philip she loves him, which I still hold out hope for.

I hope we get quality Philip and Elizabeth scenes before this is done. I read a review that rightfully noted it was a bold choice to keep them separated for the entire penultimate episode. It was. So I hope they make up for it in the last one.

And while they’re at it: make up for the lack of Philip in the last 2 episodes. Again quality scenes. Let him say something- like when he finally flat out told Elizabeth he’d put their country first by spying on her.

sistermagpie · May 26, 2018

10 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

I loved that Elizabeth grabbed the REAL wedding rings before running! Made my night. Given how Elizabeth had left things with Philip- talking to Andre and atone for lying and spying on her, that moment was so needed and so telling. It said more than any words. Well short of telling Philip she loves him, which I still hold out hope for.

When she got the phone call pretty much the only thing I was telling her to grab was those rings. I would have been more surprised if she didn't grab them, especially given how they just had Philip remember the wedding as the thing that led up to telling her the truth. But I was still nervous because who knows with Elizabeth?

So going into the last ep they've been separated for the whole episode (the one before they were separate except at the beginning and the end), Elizabeth sent Philip to talk to this guy that married them and that turned out to be a trap--but Philip got away so he could warn her. He did the Chicago job with her, confessed about the spying while standing by his actions but apologized, turned out to be right about the way he was seeing things.

Elizabeth went from furious when he wouldn't do the Kimmy thing to sympathetic when he helped her in Chicago and she got a glimpse of what a sacrifice that was, was furious again when she found out he'd lied and spied on her but would up agreeing with his judgment on the situation enough that she not only thought for herself she went against the KGB to do it.

I just realized the two of them essentially acted as each other here. Philip spied and informed on Elizabeth because he was putting their country first the way she would have. Elizabeth thought for herself and questioned her orders and defied the Centre the way Philip would hve. Even when they were angry at each other they thought about what each other *would* do in a situation and were guided by it.

scartact · May 26, 2018

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I just realized the two of them essentially acted as each other here. Philip spied and informed on Elizabeth because he was putting their country first the way she would have. Elizabeth thought for herself and questioned her orders and defied the Centre the way Philip would hve. Even when they were angry at each other they thought about what each other *would* do in a situation and were guided by it.

That's also a full circle parallel to season one! (if I recall correctly)

But I, too, also appreciated/loved her grabbing the rings; it just felt more tension-relieving (if that's even possible) on the marriage front, since so much of this season has been the driving wedge of their separate lives from one another. Yet while tension-relieving in some ways, it's also actually more high stakes since we have a feel for them explicitly shifting back into being on the same team with one another, and like, shit be topsy-turvey.

sistermagpie · May 26, 2018

10 minutes ago, scartact said:

But I, too, also appreciated/loved her grabbing the rings; it just felt more tension-relieving (if that's even possible) on the marriage front, since so much of this season has been the driving wedge of their separate lives from one another. Yet while tension-relieving in some ways, it's also actually more high stakes since we have a feel for them explicitly shifting back into being on the same team with one another, and like, shit be topsy-turvey.

Yes, so much!

Also I think this shows why they fit so well with each other. Because it's not even just that they get something from the other person, it's that they both have these qualities genuinely anyway, but one is dominant. Elizabeth is a person who cares about family and individuals, she just feels like she has to prioritize caring about the world. Philip is a person who cares about the world, he just feels like he has to prioritize individuals and family. So while they both recognize that they're acting like the other when they do these things in this ep, they're also really acting on the part of themselves that already believes that.

Iow, it really is in Elizabeth's true nature to disobey the Centre to save Nasterenko and it's in Philip's true nature to risk his marriage to save Gorbachev.

You totally nailed it with how the rings both relieve the tension (they're a team!) and also ratchet it up (they need each other!).

hellmouse · May 30, 2018

I've been thinking about what a fascinating character Kimmy is in terms of illuminating truths about Philip and Elizabeth's relationship.

We've seen Elizabeth feel insecure/threatened sexually by Annelise - she says "you never said she looks like that" when seeing her photo. Philip actually is or pretends to be oblivious "she's not always dressed like that" which seems to reassure Elizabeth. Annelise is not a threat.

Elizabeth is more deeply threatened, emotionally, by Martha. She recognizes the qualities in Martha that she herself can't bring to her relationship with Philip. Her insecurity actually brings out a wondering kind of generosity, when she considers whether Philip would be happier with Martha. Philip reassures her - "Are you crazy? It's not like that at all. I'm in love with you" - which reassures her. Martha is not a threat.

But Elizabeth is both emotionally and sexually threatened by Kimmy. Emotionally, she sees a girl the same age as her own daughter. Kimmy's vulnerability to Philip's "Jim" persona is part of what solidifies Elizabeth's belief that they need to tell Paige about themselves. She sees Kimmy as someone whose father is keeping a secret from her, and as a result, she's out looking for a father figure in a boyfriend.

In addition, and more confusingly for Elizabeth, I think there are aspects of herself she sees in Kimmy. At a very basic level, this is a young girl who is vulnerable to being used by adult men. When Elizabeth was that age, she was just a few years away from joining the KGB and being raped and then trained in using sex and seduction as a tool. I think this is why Philip's relationship with Kimmy has always been uncomfortable for Elizabeth. It's not just her age. It's that thinking about a girl that age being manipulated reminds Elizabeth at some unconscious level of herself.

The first few times Philip is out with Kimmy, Elizabeth waits up for him. She even goes out to the garage to smoke. She seems relieved when Philip doesn't sleep with Kimmy. His reluctance to do it, and his skill at coming up with plausible reasons why not to do it (and thus continue his spy mission) reassures her as a wife, as a mother, as a spy and IMO as young Nadezhda. Philip is a man she can trust. She has made the right decision in trusting him.

When Kimmy comes back on the scene in Season 6, Elizabeth seems less troubled by the idea of Philip sleeping with her. In fact, she's basically ordering him to do so. "She's not a kid anymore." He does it, thus proving his commitment to Elizabeth and the spywork. It disgusts him, but he does it. When he refuses to go through with the whole ridiculous Bulgaria scheme, Elizabeth throws the sex in his face "you just wanted to fuck her". He's like Timoshev , taking advantage of a "perk of the job". He's not the man she can trust. And he doesn't reassure her this time. He says "You can think what you want". Elizabeth needs to know that she comes first with Philip and he has always given her that, until now. Now she's just angry at him and it isn't until the phone call at the end of Rififi - "What's happened to you" - that she starts to believe he is still committed to her.

Philip and Elizabeth fight about Martha; they fight about Paige; they fight about their work. But with Kimmy, it's all of that. It's not just a fight about spycraft, or a young girl, or a sexual mark, or a daughter or parenting. It's a wife ordering her husband to have sex with a daughter-figure in order to advance a work objective. It's a wife and real daughter arguing about who she should and shouldn't sleep with. Philip is horrified to think that he may not be the only one getting orders about who to sleep with. And as he's always pointed out, things change. Even if Paige is not being told to have sex with someone now, she may very well be told to do so at some point. And having just slept with Kimmy, he's not just thinking of it as Paige's father. He's thinking of it as a man who was able to use a young woman for his own ends. Will that happen to Paige?

Kimmy has been such a powerful character and I admire what a tremendous job Julia Garner, the actress has done with it. A lesser performance would not have yielded so much insight and poignancy.

Umbelina · May 31, 2018

By Todd VanDerWerff, Genevieve Koski, Libby Nelson, and Dylan Matthews

Quote

Genevieve Koski: This one definitely makes it into my list of the 10 greatest TV finales ever, not just for the consideration and care that went into the construction of it (and the final season as a whole), but for how thoroughly and almost radically it puts a bow on the series’ central preoccupation: the Jennings marriage.

What’s so breathtaking to me about that final image of Philip and Elizabeth overlooking Moscow isn’t simply that they’re back in Russia after all this time, but that they’re there alone, contemplating what their lives might have been like had they never left and what they will be like now that they’ve returned.

The entire time we’ve known them, their marriage has been defined by its various constraining factors: their work, their children, their sources, their secrets. The version of their marriage they were able to build and keep alive — sometimes just barely — is one that’s always been informed by these factors, and now suddenly it’s just … not. They’re no longer Philip and Elizabeth, super-spies and parents; they’re Mischa and Nadezhda, two Russian citizens back in a country they no longer know, without their children, their jobs, or anything else to give them a sense of identity. Nothing beyond each other.

scartact · May 31, 2018

My low bar hope for how I wanted the series to end came to fruition and Phil & Liz are still together, and I suppose for that I feel most relieved. I also realized that part of me never believed Paige and Henry would make it out to the USSR with them if they had to exfiltrate, especially the older they got and the more complex and complicated it became to be honest with Paige about the truth of their work.

I'm going to miss thinking about this relationship and marriage so much. I could probably write thousands and thousands of words of analysis on Phil and Liz! But for now, I am thinking about the quietness of their final scene together, amidst everything they've lost, and Liz wondering about an alternate history where she managed (heh!) a factory and a chance encounter on a bus. Something so sweetly nostalgic and longing for a memory of something that would never be. Surely they've never been that innocent, nor were they ever able to, especially as children of war.

hellmouse · May 31, 2018

10 minutes ago, scartact said:

My low bar hope for how I wanted the series to end came to fruition and Phil & Liz are still together, and I suppose for that I feel most relieved. I also realized that part of me never believed Paige and Henry would make it out to the USSR with them if they had to exfiltrate, especially the older they got and the more complex and complicated it became to be honest with Paige about the truth of their work.

I'm going to miss thinking about this relationship and marriage so much. I could probably write thousands and thousands of words of analysis on Phil and Liz! But for now, I am thinking about the quietness of their final scene together, amidst everything they've lost, and Liz wondering about an alternate history where she managed (heh!) a factory and a chance encounter on a bus. Something so sweetly nostalgic and longing for a memory of something that would never be. Surely they've never been that innocent, nor were they ever able to, especially as children of war.

I thought Elizabeth saying "maybe we would have met... on a bus" was perfect. It's such a mundane idea, but coming from her, it seems like a wild romantic flight of fancy. And the underlying point is that she can't imagine her life without him.

When she hesitates in saying what Philip might have done, I wondered if she was going to mention Irina and Mischa, and I was really glad she didn't. Better to imagine meeting on a bus.

scartact · May 31, 2018

3 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

I thought Elizabeth saying "maybe we would have met... on a bus" was perfect. It's such a mundane idea, but coming from her, it seems like a wild romantic flight of fancy. And the underlying point is that she can't imagine her life without him.

Yes! My thoughts too. She started the series as someone who didn't really want anything personally to do with Philip, drew a hard line between their undercover lives, KGB work, and who she actually was and what she actually wanted and desired; and now she ends with this flight of fancy that they could encounter each other on a bus and maybe, just maybe, fall in love.

Erin9 · May 31, 2018

6 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I thought Elizabeth saying "maybe we would have met... on a bus" was perfect. It's such a mundane idea, but coming from her, it seems like a wild romantic flight of fancy. And the underlying point is that she can't imagine her life without him.

When she hesitates in saying what Philip might have done, I wondered if she was going to mention Irina and Mischa, and I was really glad she didn't. Better to imagine meeting on a bus.

It was perfect. They were matched together for work. It was never supposed to be real. Elizabeth finally let it become real. And now- no matter what- she sees them as destined to meet and be together. No matter what alternate choices they might have made. It is very romantic for her. Especially after all they’ve been through.

And I loved everything about the real wedding rings- from Elizabeth grabbing them before running to her handing a ring to Philip as left left their American lives. It needed to be her that did those things imo. I’m so pleased with how that played out.

Umbelina · May 31, 2018

I wonder how they will feel in four years?

Elizabeth will realize that Claudia had a point, and that HER actions ended the USSR, and also the cause she's believed in and dedicated her life to, communism.

Since she did it because Philip convinced her to, will that cause even more marital tension?

Philip, who grew to appreciate capitalism, at least the day to day life of that, will now have it in Russia, along with all of the corruption it brings. Will he thrive there since he's had some experience with that, or will it depress him?

That is, if the anti-reformists don't kill them first in fury.

sistermagpie · June 1, 2018

29 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder how they will feel in four years?

Elizabeth will realize that Claudia had a point, and that HER actions ended the USSR, and also the cause she's believed in and dedicated her life to, communism.

Since she did it because Philip convinced her to, will that cause even more marital tension?

Philip, who grew to appreciate capitalism, at least the day to day life of that, will now have it in Russia, along with all of the corruption it brings. Will he thrive there since he's had some experience with that, or will it depress him?

That is, if the anti-reformists don't kill them first in fury.

While Elizabeth might be in one of her moods to blame Philip for things going wrong, in the end she didn't really do it because of Philip or because she thought reform was better. She did it because she saw Claudia and the coup dishonoring a good Russian soldier who she might have disagreed with but did not deserve to have his memory tarnished. (Elizabeth is the child of a coward/traitor, remember.) And even if the hardliners are right that doesn't mean this is the way to go about it. That's why she said, when Claudia said the KGB was supporting the coup, "But not the party?"

I suspect Philip will be plenty depressed at the depressing stuff that happens in Russia but he might also be galvanized by having an enemy he recognizes. People who hoard money for themselves while others have nothing is something Philip can genuinely hate.

Umbelina · June 1, 2018

In some ways though, Claudia was seeing the big picture or let's say the forest, and she was right.

Elizabeth is smart enough to realize that she, Elizabeth, was only looking at the trees.

The forest of course being the survival of the USSR and communism, the trees being Gorbachev and Nesterenko.

I think it will eat her up inside, that she helped bring down her life's work, and that Claudia was RIGHT.

Umbelina · August 18, 2018

Obviously a ton of discussion about Elizabeth and Philip's relationship in the Tusk to Tchaikovsky thread.

My main problems with viewing them a soul mates or a romantic ideal or happily ever after or anything approaching an equal or comparable exchange of love between them fall squarely at the feet of Elizabeth.

I'll number these so they are easier to refer to, and they are in no particular order. Also, please know, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, and I think some are lucky to still view them as some kind of true love, I just can't.

Elizabeth is full of double standards, she has flipped out when anyone lies to her, yet she lied to Henry, to Paige, to Philip (for YEARS and worse, in a cuckold way, when he had to deal with Gregory at work) and to Claudia, I won't even count all of her spy-lies to marks. Her fury and what she does to the same people (for lying) seems deeply unfair or at least hypocritical, since if she does it herself, she's apparently not bothered by it.
Elizabeth breaks up with Philip for lying about sleeping with Irina, (after they had a huge fight and things seemed over to him, since he'd found out she'd been reporting on him to the KGB for years.) Yet, she sleeps with Gregory before he goes off to die, and I certainly don't recall her telling Philip about that. In truth, Philip would have probably understood, but the point is, once again, Elizabeth demands something of others she doesn't give herself.
My biggest issue in feeling this relationship is deeply unhealthy, is of course that Philip "feels like shit all the time" and has for years. To Elizabeth's credit, she does "allow" him to quit the KGB, but the problem with that is that he doesn't really get to quit. He still must live with a KGB officer, his daughter is being given to the cause and he's terribly worried about her future now, and he must maintain Elizabeth's cover, so even though he's not actively murdering anymore? He's the support system for that, and he's still OWNED by the KGB, having to maintain the Travel Agency.
Along with the above, from what we saw on the show in the final season, Elizabeth was (beyond doubt) making Philip PAY for not staying in the KGB proper. She wouldn't listen to him, even when he told her it was important. She was derisive, "what, FEELINGS again?" She was rude all the time, and what's more? What was with Paige thinking so little of her father? Where did that come from, if not, at least in part, by the parent she WAS spending so much time with? Elizabeth, even obtuse Elizabeth, had to know Paige's attitudes about her father, hell, she saw it (on screen) a couple of times. Did Elizabeth enjoy that, or just not give a shit, or simply let her own anger play out through her daughter's disrespect? Why didn't she ever say to Paige, "Your father was an amazing agent, but this job can get to you after time, knock off the sass, you'd be lucky to be half the agent he was."
Just how long has Elizabeth been distant and mean to Philip? We come back from the 3 year time jump, but we really have no indication if Elizabeth's been a bitch to him this whole time, or if it got progressively worse, what? I think it's probably a bit of both. What we DO know is that Elizabeth is finally kind to him, and listening to him, and affectionate with him ONLY after he comes to Chicago, in other words, returns to being KGB. That's why I said in the other thread that kind of love isn't healthy, a love that requires you to kill, or even to do a job that you HATE, in order to get affection from your partner is abusive.
The show ends with Philip back in the USSR, with neither of his kids (and "family" was always his motivating force) and Elizabeth has decided, on her own, to make it very clear to the Coup people that she and Philip are the ones that thwarted them, endangering both of their lives. Even if we say they live, in about 3 years the USSR will be in a disastrous time, little food, utilities won't work, chaos will reign. AT BEST the USSR is going to be a huge step down for Philip, as far as basic creature comforts like food and electricity and a car comfy clothing, missing his children, and missing freedoms he will never have there.

I think Philip was extremely good for Elizabeth, a perfect partner in almost all ways.

I just don't see the same for Philip. I think Philip's life has been ruined, mostly by the KGB, but in great part by his "love" for Elizabeth. With him, it was almost an addiction, and after watching all six seasons, I'm certainly glad they stayed together because it made for the best show, but if I think of them at all as real?

I wish Philip had defected and run for the hills, I think he would fall in love again (as would Elizabeth, as much as she is capable of love) but Philip? Could have made healthier choices, and saved his kids at the same time. It's, once again, a reverse of the usual story, the woman is the main hero, and in this case, the woman is the abusive, demanding spouse as well. I think we might have viewed the story quite differently if the genders were switched, (I'm glad they weren't) but I think many would view Philomena as abused, and Elroy as the abuser much more clearly if they were.

ETA

Interesting.

At 18:16 or so Mathew is questioned about Philip being back in Russia. He says he didn't want to be there, and goes on to explain about wanting to defect.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · August 18, 2018

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think Philip was extremely good for Elizabeth, a perfect partner in almost all ways.

I just don't see the same for Philip. I think Philip's life has been ruined, mostly by the KGB, but in great part by his "love" for Elizabeth.

I think this is at the heart of it and I do think everything you're saying is true. Elizabeth is absolutely an incredible hypocrite and is from day 1. She has these high standards for everyone and also herself. But that just means that whenever she wants to do something she justifies it to herself as different. So if another person does the same thing, she won't have any compassion for them. Her own stumbles don't make her more understanding.

Especially all the things you describe about the last season are very true. I do think that Elizabeth is definitely supposed to have progressed to where she is gradually--I think that's partly what Philip's early line about how he's seen her really starting to crack over the last few months is about, with the summit etc. But still what we're left with is a guy who's quietly unhappy with things in his own life and a partner who doesn't think those problems are worth her time. Literally nothing is worth her time except what she's doing, even while it makes her unhappy and unpleasant.

She's destroying everything good in their life--not just risking their daughter's life but, as you say, encouraging Paige to stupidly admire and imitate that same attitude toward her father. (Pathetically going to formal instruction to become a person she never was as if her entire identity is a mistake to be corrected while even more pathetically trying to sneer and look down on the other parent for respecting her as herself.) Henry's kind of the superhero of the family by being practically the only person in Elizabeth's orbit who looks her in the eye and says, "You're not worth it." He just acknowledges that his mother behaves like she doesn't care about him at all, has no interest in talking to him. Notices that she's sad and even sort of nails why without realizing it--she doesn't appreciate or take pleasure from any of the good things in her life. But that's her loss.

Elizabeth made the major choices for the family's living situation. They didn't defect or run together. Those choices she didn't make she approved of anyway. She was fine with Henry leaving home, Paige decided she wanted to be just like her Mom. These choices lead them to an ending where they're separated from their children in a home/foreign country.

I think it's just a fact that Philip's always given more, given in more. Whatever the showrunners and cast seemed to push in panels you have to think that if Philip actually was able to have a friend--one that he was actually honest with and knew who he was etc., that friend might root for him to leave her. On the show, of course, Philip really doesn't have anybody like that while everybody seems to want to support Elizabeth. (Except Henry--go Henry!)

But at the same time, I don't see the marriage as toxic for Philip. I do think that Elizabeth loves him and loves the kids. She's just screwed up and self-destructive in that area. But not always--she is capable of being caring and loving to him. I do honestly think that Philip gets something important from Elizabeth and that while he certainly regrets his circumstances at the end of the show, he doesn't think really look back at any time he chose Elizabeth and think that wasn't the right choice for him.

I think in an alternate universe where Philip defected with the kids and left her behind his life could have been superficially better in many ways (especially if we imagine he's somehow safe from the KGB and not being pressed into working against them etc.). He would have made it work as always. But I also think he would have never have been a whole person. Maybe that's one of the biggest things Elizabeth offers, that even when she's at her worst, he's himself with her. If he'd defected with the kids before the end of the pilot I think he'd have been fine not being that whole person, but once he and Elizabeth are truly involved it became a much harder idea to contemplate.

I guess I think that in large part because okay, Elizabeth's arc on the show was clearer and simpler. Her inner conflict was clear. We saw her coping strategies in black and white, for instance, she gets two major incidents in her formative years where she responds to something that feels like cruelty and rejection by telling herself it's noble, tough love. (Mom "not blinking" before telling her to go to the KGB and being a "perk" for Timoshev.) You can see this same idea playing out with the way she ultimately treats the children.

With Philip things are much more murky. He's also making choices, and while those choices are also often clear we don't get the same kind of user's handbook we have with Elizabeth. But one thing I do see as an arc for Philip is him trying to discover the real, whole person that he is, which often includes re-assessing and understanding his past. Without the marriage I don't think he'd have ever gotten there. This is I think maybe intentionally reflected in Sandra Beeman, a character Philip really connects with in the brief moment he's allowed to do so. Sandra talks about something similar with Stan--she's doing "soul retrieval"--imo, exactly what Philip's doing throughout the show. Sandra's kind of going in the opposite direction--she's been defining herself as a wife and then realizes that her husband isn't actually in the marriage with her so she leaves to find something authentic. Philip's wife is in the marriage with him, even at her worse, imo. (Stan, meanwhile, seems to continue to be drawn to ultra-smooth relationships...)

Anyway, that's something that makes Philip's devotion to Elizabeth doesn't seem like an unhealthy choice, even if there's of course unhealthy things that come with it. I think he'd have unhappiness either way if he couldn't have it all. He wants to be with Elizabeth and the kids in their home in the US. But if he has to start letting those things go, he'd let go of the US homebase first, then the kids. Likewise, like I said elsewhere, I think he is genuinely attracted to the things the showrunners think are so gret about her too and I think he sees all of her very clearly, more than anyone, and she knows it.

Umbelina · August 18, 2018

We agree on quite a bit, but I stand by that a love that forces you to do things you detest, or lose it? Is not a healthy love. Yours is very well articulated and brings up even more great points.

Two minor points, very minor, here.

53 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Paige decided she wanted to be just like her Mom.

As Philip points out, Elizabeth GROOMS Paige, it is, in every sense, a recruitment, made more toxic because of Paige's loneliness, and that it's her own mother doing it. She was grooming her to make that decision from the time Claudia said the KGB wanted her. It was actually quite sick.

53 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think in an alternate universe where Philip defected with the kids and left her behind his life could have been superficially better in many ways (especially if we imagine he's somehow safe from the KGB and not being pressed into working against them etc.). He would have made it work as always. But I also think he would have never have been a whole person. Maybe that's one of the biggest things Elizabeth offers, that even when she's at her worst, he's himself with her. If he'd defected with the kids before the end of the pilot I think he'd have been fine not being that whole person, but once he and Elizabeth are truly involved it became a much harder idea to contemplate.

I think this could be true, especially since he would still have (some) need to lie. However, I think Philip is intrinsically lovable, and, from both his training and instincts, he would know if/when it was ever safe to tell a new love interest about his true identity. I don't think he would do it until he was positive, but, if that happened? I think he could find love, and be himself, all parts of himself.

Honestly, most women would listen and support a man like Philip, and while it might be a difficult transition for Philip and the kids, he's always been wonderful with them, at understanding them, and God knows Paige would need deprogramming and encouragement to just be herself. That's all Philip every really wanted for his children, to be themselves.

Big cities, or at least medium sized cities, are actually easier to hide in, so a city away from places the KGB would be interested in, little or no strategist value, probably not even much more than a two man FBI office would be likely. He likes cowboy boots and country music, but I can't picture him happy in a deep red area, and Henry would have probably be able to get into a good school with Philip's defecting money. I think Paige would want to stay near Henry, and Philip would want to stay near both kids, so? Since he missed the cold, maybe someplace in the North West.

I was glad to see that Mathew Rhys saw his character much like I did as far as wanting to stay in the USA, and not being happy about being back in the USSR. Also, for him, it was ALWAYS "keep the family together." That was his mantra practically, so losing his kids, as he says up there, was devastating.

I'm not saying it wasn't devastating for Elizabeth, but her primary focus has never been about the kids or her marriage. It has always been the KGB, the cause, not being like her father, the dream of the ideal socialist state, world peace, enough food and respect for all. She was such an idealist, and she was willing to do anything, sacrifice anything, for those goals. Kids and husband came after that, important, but not her prime motivator. That's the other reason I just can't picture Elizabeth happy when the USSR fails, I think it will decimate her, everything she's done? For nothing.

Philip will be coping with that mess, and missing his children while trying to prop her up. As I said, I think they will be killed, but it's certainly possible they survive. What I can't picture is happiness for either of them. They will cope, Philip may find comfort in Misha and perhaps someday grandchildren. Still? Sad.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Umbelina

Umbelina · August 18, 2018

48 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I do honestly think that Philip gets something important from Elizabeth and that while he certainly regrets his circumstances at the end of the show, he doesn't think really look back at any time he chose Elizabeth and think that wasn't the right choice for him.

Oops, wanted to address this comment too.

Of course he does, but even that is because the KGB fucked his life over. Elizabeth is the only one he's been able to be completely honest with since he left the USSR. Even then? He only had that for 6 years, before that, he even had to lie to her. He was able to only "be real" about some things. Until she said "My name was Nadezhda..." they were still dealing with lies of the most basic sort, who you are, what your name was, where you grew up.

So, for almost all of Philip's adult life he had not a single person he could be "real" with. He didn't have a Gregory, and he never really bonded with Gabriel and certainly never trusted Claudia. ALONE doesn't even begin to describe Philip.

Once Elizabeth decided to give him a chance? It was EVERYTHING to just be honest, to be loved for what you were, still always second place to the cause, but at least a tiny bit of honesty in a life of nothing but lies. I can't imagine the relief.

I just think he would have found it with someone who put him first had he left her, and he would still have his children, and a life in America, which, with all it's issues, still provided a life he preferred.

Hell, after the USSR failed? KGB officers lived openly in the USA, moved here, wrote books, consulted on spy movies, all of it. Many still do. So, in a few years he probably wouldn't have even had to hide it that much, except of course from the KGB, so, yeah, he'd still have to hide I suppose.

Edited August 18, 2018 by Umbelina

sistermagpie · August 18, 2018

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

As Philip points out, Elizabeth GROOMS Paige, it is, in every sense, a recruitment, made more toxic because of Paige's loneliness, and that it's her own mother doing it. She was grooming her to make that decision from the time Claudia said the KGB wanted her. It was actually quite sick.

I started re-watching In Control and it's really striking me how much healthier Paige seems to me in the first season. She's clearly a bit insecure, but not so much more than any other 13 year old. But she sometimes comes up with her own pov on things that's intelligent and part of what makes her seem so healthy is that she's not obsessed with her mom and freely appreciates her dad. It's not even like she's estranged from her mom. She's perfectly affectionate towards her, she just rejects Elizabeth's ideas about things when they don't fit her. By the last season she's totally mirroring all of Elizabeth's misery and with even less reason. She has no friends. She's angry. She relies on punching people to feel strong. She thinks she's too good for every day life things. She gets angry at her mother for trying to run her life while running to her mother for approval about every damn thing in her life. She's dumbing her own self down and stopped thinking for herself.

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think this could be true, especially since he would still have (some) need to lie. However, I think Philip is intrinsically lovable, and, from both his training and instincts, he would know if/when it was ever safe to tell a new love interest about his true identity. I don't think he would do it until he was positive, but, if that happened? I think he could find love, and be himself, all parts of himself.

I don't know if he'd ever have discovered all the parts of himself that way--but I think I'll go into that on the Philip thread. I agree, though, that he'd have certainly been able to find a woman to love him and that he could love. Hell, look at that one brief period where he's with Sandra Beeman. Not saying she would be the love of his life but he did connect with her and he's got so many qualities that women would love. He might even have wound up with a woman with children of her own and be a great stepfather. I think he might have never felt the need to tell this other people his real backstory and he'd have been fine with that.

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I'm not saying it wasn't devastating for Elizabeth, but her primary focus has never been about the kids or her marriage. It has always been the KGB, the cause, not being like her father, the dream of the ideal socialist state, world peace, enough food and respect for all. She was such an idealist, and she was willing to do anything, sacrifice anything, for those goals. Kids and husband came after that, important, but not her prime motivator. That's the other reason I just can't picture Elizabeth happy when the USSR fails, I think it will decimate her, everything she's done? For nothing.

I've always said that to me the way Elizabeth is "strong" is that she delegates a lot of her psychology to other people. She doesn't think about what she's doing, she just relies on the Centre to tell her. She's told herself all these years that she's Russian and hates the US so I think she's barely allowed herself to think about it being difficult to adjust to the USSR. Where as Philip, I think, knows very well that going to the USSR would be starting over in a strange place when he's perfectly happy in the place he's in now. He was happy to do it with the kids in S5 to quit spying, but in S6 he's just being banished because he got caught.

But it's like he says to Paige--it's better to feel the things you do and not try to suppress them and pretend they aren't there. Elizabeth doesn't seem to have many copying skills developed for this. Although I guess she'll still just tell herself that she's doing her duty.

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Of course he does, but even that is because the KGB fucked his life over. Elizabeth is the only one he's been able to be completely honest with since he left the USSR. Even then? He only had that for 6 years, before that, he even had to lie to her. He was able to only "be real" about some things. Until she said "My name was Nadezhda..." they were still dealing with lies of the most basic sort, who you are, what your name was, where you grew up.

So, for almost all of Philip's adult life he had not a single person he could be "real" with. He didn't have a Gregory, and he never really bonded with Gabriel and certainly never trusted Claudia. ALONE doesn't even begin to describe Philip.

True, but that's the situation he's in by the time we meet him so it's what he's stuck with. Elizabeth didn't put him there, he took the job on for himself. (Ironically he may have done it in part because Irina decided it was best for him and broke up with him, hiding the son he'd have chosen instead.) So I can see why whatever the reason, he feels something with her he doesn't feel with anybody else and he's just accepted that.

Umbelina · August 19, 2018

I've temporarily misplaced Season 3 DVDs, so I just moved on to Season 4 last night.

In "Chloramphenicol" the episode where Gabe is exposed to the toxin, and William, Philip, Elizabeth and Gabe stay in his apartment after taking antibiotics. ANYWAY...when they all thought Elizabeth might have been exposed too, and she thought she might die, she talks to Philip.

She tells him "be Americans, take the kids somewhere and just be Americans, 'it's what you've always wanted.'"

Later he talks alone to William and tells him if he could he would leave the KGB and just stay in America and "be normal." Philip goes on to say that Elizabeth doesn't want that, so they don't. William says something like "but with Elizabeth?" Philip nods. There is something else as well, Philip says, possibly right before, maybe right after that, that he hears alarm bells going off in his head telling him to run, and do it soon. Elizabeth doesn't hear them though, so they stay.

So, even Elizabeth knew that Philip still wanted to defect. His was willing to pretend he'd be OK with going back to the USSR, to keep the family intact, and he would have done that. I was impressed that Elizabeth knew, and more impressed that she had stopped ratting him out.

(leaving that up there to see how close I came, but looky!  I found script transcripts!)

- (beep) (retching) (gasping lightly) (toilet flushes) It-- it still might be the antibiotic. We don't know yet. (water runs) (breathing heavily) (water shuts off) If something happens-- Elizabeth. Philip. It-It's not gonna happen. Please listen. If something happens you blame me for Pastor Tim and Alice. Don't wait for Paige to get suspicious. I'm not doing that. Then you can just raise them here be Americans. Henry doesn't even ever have to know, and Paige Elizabeth. I'm just saying if. It's what you want, what you've always wanted.

The William conversation here:

WILLIAM: Her fever's broken. So, she's better? (sighs) I don't know. (sighs) Sorry I I can't be more (sighs) How long have you two been together? Um, over 20 years. Long time. Yeah. How many kids? Two. That's nice, what you have. Everything okay with the kids? I saw her face when she called home. (car alarm blares in distance) Things are hard right now. (sighs) You're still lucky. You don't know. You don't know what it's like to do this job and not have anybody to talk to about it, except a series of handlers who don't give a shit. My daughter is in a very bad place because of us because of this job. She could sense that something was off. You know, the late hours, no family ever around. Elizabeth wanted to tell her who we were, and I didn't. We fought about it for months. And then we did. Nobody sane would do this work. (both chuckle lightly) She would. You? I'd be normal. (scoffing) Normal. W-With Elizabeth, though? (exhales weakly) (moans) Here.

I was also thinking from earlier episodes how much Elizabeth talked about her mother to Philip. He even arranged a trip against orders for her to go see her because he knew how much she missed her. In all of the years of the show though, Elizabeth never asked Philip about his mother, about his family, (does she even know he has a brother?) if he missed them, and after he own mother died, it's kind of normal to bring up "Is your mother still alive, how did she die?" I mean, especially with all the trip discussion, wouldn't you think Elizabeth might at least mention Philip's own mother? Odd.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Umbelina
added transcripts

Umbelina · August 19, 2018

The "alarm bells" conversation is here, it's was in the previous episode, The Experimental Prototype City of Tomorrow

You still think it'd be better to leave? (telephone ringing in distance) I do. But, Philip, you don't even want that. I know you don't. Hmm. Maybe they could send us down South. You always dreamed of Odessa. - By the water. - Yeah. And then what? With two kids who don't know anyone, don't know the language. You don't think they'd hate us then? And what about us? I mean, everything that we've built here. Our work Those things matter. It's - Don't they matter to you? - It all matters. Elizabeth, it all matters. But for the last two days, I've had an alarm going off inside me-- "Run, run, run. " And it's not going off inside of you, so we stay. It seems Paige loses whatever we do.

I bolded the key part of that conversion, at least to me. His delivery of that line, and both of their acting there, kind of said it all. Elizabeth makes the choices in that relationship, and they both know it.

Edited August 19, 2018 by Umbelina
fixed link

Roseanna · November 26, 2018

On ‎13‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 11:19 AM, Umbelina said:

ANYWAY, my main focus for this point, aside from the lack of food which has been discussed in the show, is that Stalin had different rules for "desertion" and "cowardice" than other combatants in the war, or perhaps any other war in modern times. Surrender of any kind was desertion/treason/cowardice. If taken alive as POW? You were a deserter, a coward, and a traitor. It didn't matter if your ammunition was gone, and you were outnumbered 40,000 to 10, hadn't eaten for weeks, or were almost frozen. Surrender and you are dead anyway, because you were a coward and a traitor.

After the war, indeed, any captured Russian soldiers that were returned were either shot, or put in re-purposed German concentration camps, which became part of the Gulag system, run by the NKGB, precursor to the KGB. In most cases, the conditions were as bad or worse than for captured Russian soldiers under German control. IF they lived through that, which most did not, they were sentenced to many years of prison in work camps / Gulags in Siberia and elsewhere where most of the rest, of course, died.

Side note, Stalin refused to sign the Geneva Accord for POW's so treatment of captured Russians was much worse than for other allied countries.

Although Stalin hadn't signed the Geneva convention about the POVs, the Czar's government had signed the earlier Hague convention and Soviet Union recognized its signature. And even if it hadn't, it was stated that all POVs must be treated according to "the practices of the civilized countries".

So the Germans lied that they treated the Soviet POVs badly because there was no treaty. In fact, Hitler had decided before the attack that Germany would follow no rules of war in the Eastern front, but it would wage a war of extermination. Hitler also gave so called "criminal orders" according to which Politruks and Commissars wouldn't be taken as POVs but shot straigtway and some groups (Jews, Asians) and politics (Communists) as well as those with more education would would be giving up to SS to be killed. As for other Soviet POVs, it was on purpose that not enough resources were prepared for them, so it was beforehand clear that most of them would die of hunger.

It's true that Stalin didn't care for Soviet POVs but because of Hitler's policy, Stalin couldn't have helped them in the German POV camps if he had wanted.

As for those POVs who returned home, we know that all POVs Finland got during the Winter War were put in the camps, but not all during the Continuation War that ended in September 1944 - they went through inspection camps and most of them were selected to fight towards Berlin.

Roseanna · November 26, 2018

On ‎9‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 8:17 AM, Erin9 said:

The family is not in a good place right now, but defection and /or running sure isn't magically going to fix anything for anyone.

We have seen that the KGB didn't forgive even such minor defectors than Mr and Mrs Teacup. Whatever promises of new identities and protection the FBI would make, P&E would have lived in constant fear - even more fear as they lived under their cover identies. Plus, they couldn't have help to feel guilt and shame for betraying their country and their comrades they had worked with.

CherithCutestory · December 21, 2018

On 8/19/2018 at 1:18 PM, Umbelina said:

In all of the years of the show though, Elizabeth never asked Philip about his mother, about his family, (does she even know he has a brother?) if he missed them, and after he own mother died, it's kind of normal to bring up "Is your mother still alive, how did she die?" I mean, especially with all the trip discussion, wouldn't you think Elizabeth might at least mention Philip's own mother? Odd.

She asks about what his son's military career after he tells her about him and then comforts him when he says he's a paratrooper in Afghanistan. And we never saw Philip ask about her family. She always volunteered the information about her mother. He never asked about her father. He made the plan after she told with her own prompting. And there was never anything similar she could have done. Except, of course, Elizabeth DID ask Gabriel to bring Philip's son home from Afghanistan. She did that before Philip did the thing with her mother. And he knew about it (although she didn't tell him so there is no way to view it as manipulation.)

She's not one to ask big favors of the KGB or think they owe them anything (serving is something to be proud of not to get things for) but she did it for Philip's son. It's unfair to not note that Elizabeth reached out to the KGB over a family member out of love for him FIRST.

On 8/17/2018 at 8:49 PM, Umbelina said:

My biggest issue in feeling this relationship is deeply unhealthy, is of course that Philip "feels like shit all the time" and has for years. To Elizabeth's credit, she does "allow" him to quit the KGB, but the problem with that is that he doesn't really get to quit. He still must live with a KGB officer, his daughter is being given to the cause and he's terribly worried about her future now, and he must maintain Elizabeth's cover, so even though he's not actively murdering anymore? He's the support system for that, and he's still OWNED by the KGB, having to maintain the Travel Agency.

She didn't just allow him. She suggested it. She saw how unhappy he was and suggested he retire.

He chose to be a KGB spy. He was told it would be a hard life. He chose it. That's not on Elizabeth. If he ever gave it up without her covering for his ass he'd have been dead in a few days.

On 8/17/2018 at 8:49 PM, Umbelina said:

Just how long has Elizabeth been distant and mean to Philip? We come back from the 3 year time jump, but we really have no indication if Elizabeth's been a bitch to him this whole time, or if it got progressively worse, what? I think it's probably a bit of both. What we DO know is that Elizabeth is finally kind to him, and listening to him, and affectionate with him ONLY after he comes to Chicago, in other words, returns to being KGB. That's why I said in the other thread that kind of love isn't healthy, a love that requires you to kill, or even to do a job that you HATE, in order to get affection from your partner is abusive.

This was explained in show. It was over the "last few months" that she was finally cracking and that lead to her being brusque to everyone.

And she wasn't kind to him because he was back to KGB. But because he was taking some of this massive burden off of her shoulders. It never should have been on her shoulders alone, in the first place. He signed onto this gig. It was meant to be both of them. She had him retire for his own well being and it absolutely destroyed her mental health.

She's not perfect but she gets no credit for willing to take on the work of two master spies all by herself just so he can be OK? Philip shirked his responsibilities for years. He let her take on the whole thing all by herself. Saw it was killing her. And still let her until Chicago. When she saw it was killing him she acted.

On 8/18/2018 at 12:58 AM, Umbelina said:

As Philip points out, Elizabeth GROOMS Paige, it is, in every sense, a recruitment, made more toxic because of Paige's loneliness, and that it's her own mother doing it. She was grooming her to make that decision from the time Claudia said the KGB wanted her. It was actually quite sick.

On 8/18/2018 at 12:27 AM, sistermagpie said:

Philip was right there the whole time. He told who they really were right along with Elizabeth (in fact he spoke first.) He said she had to stay close to Pastor Tim (her first mark.) He didn't tell her what things they really do, which would have ended her fascination from the start. It is ridiculous to suggest he was powerless there.

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I bolded the key part of that conversion, at least to me. His delivery of that line, and both of their acting there, kind of said it all. Elizabeth makes the choices in that relationship, and they both know it.

That was true in season 4. By season 6, he wanted her to go against Centre's orders and she did. By the end, the power dynamic is reversed. Elizabeth needs him. His opinion of her means more to her than her devotion to the KGB.

That being said, there was a scene where Elizabeth asked who wore the pants in Clark and Martha's marriage, which I found hilarious. Who wears the pants in your's?! Why would Clark be different.

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Elizabeth is full of double standards, she has flipped out when anyone lies to her, yet she lied to Henry, to Paige, to Philip (for YEARS and worse, in a cuckold way, when he had to deal with Gregory at work) and to Claudia, I won't even count all of her spy-lies to marks. Her fury and what she does to the same people (for lying) seems deeply unfair or at least hypocritical, since if she does it herself, she's apparently not bothered by it.

Elizabeth and Philip weren't really a couple when she was with Gregory so it wasn't cuckolding. And they had split up when she slept with him before his death. When they became real she ended things with Gregory and told Philip all about it. She expected the same honesty as she gave him. It's not a double standard.

On 11/26/2018 at 2:04 PM, Roseanna said:

We have seen that the KGB didn't forgive even such minor defectors than Mr and Mrs Teacup. Whatever promises of new identities and protection the FBI would make, P&E would have lived in constant fear - even more fear as they lived under their cover identies. Plus, they couldn't have help to feel guilt and shame for betraying their country and their comrades they had worked with.

Yes. The idea that Philip could have just defected with the kids and lived a great life is frankly laughable. Philip and Elizabeth don't even have anything much to offer! They did briefly in the very first episode but Philip killed their meal ticket. They have always been siloed. Their missions discrete with no knowledge of how they work into the overall plans. Their only contacts are easily disposable handlers whose real names they don't even know. The exception was Oleg (who was really small potatoes.) The only way they could be of any use to American authorities was if they stayed as spies and reported back. But then what's the point? It's the same lifestyle.

There is absolutely no way American authorities would have been "OK, well you have no good information for us and you were spying on our soil and killing our people for two decades but why not put you up in witness protection!"

Philip would be prosecuted and the KGB would kill him before he got to trial. That's the only way defection would have worked. It was never a real option for Philip. Except for that brief moment in the very first episode.

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Hell, after the USSR failed? KGB officers lived openly in the USA, moved here, wrote books, consulted on spy movies, all of it. Many still do. So, in a few years he probably wouldn't have even had to hide it that much, except of course from the KGB, so, yeah, he'd still have to hide I suppose.

Not KGB officers who lived on US soil and killed dozens of people. Not KGB officers who ran a mole inside the FBI. There is no way in hell the US authorities would ever have shrugged and let him be.

We don't know what would have happened if Elizabeth died of glanders or if Philip took the kids and left her. But it is more plausible that without Elizabeth keeping him at least vaguely tethered to the KGB he would have quickly ended up dead, in prison or both than he would have ended up living a totally normal American life on American soil.

Edited December 21, 2018 by CherithCutestory

Roseanna · December 21, 2018

On ‎13‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 9:40 PM, sistermagpie said:

That makes me wonder why Liz and her mom didn't seem to ever face any punishment for her father. Her mother was a party secretary, iirc.

On ‎13‎.‎3‎.‎2018 at 9:51 PM, Umbelina said:

Maybe they did, and Liz was too young to know or realize it.

Elizabeth was born in 1942, so she would have been eleven years old when Stalin died in 1953. At least until at that time she would have been publicly shamed: she would be called "a traitor' daughter" by your neigbors and teachers as well by other children.

Simply living under the German occupation made people second-class citizens and Elizabeth's mother was twice that as a traitor's wife. Irl she would have been unable to keep her job and lost all benefits due to a soldier' family. Unless, of course, her husband came home and asked her to hide him but she informed on him. But then she would hardly keep his picture in the limelight

I think that the writers simply did lousy job.

Roseanna · December 21, 2018

I can well understand that many like Philip better than Elizabeth. He is that sensitive quy who begans to feel pangs of conscience, quits his job and finally refuses to obey orders.

Philip also refused to kill Martha, but also Elizabeth doesn't always kill. She threatens the worker with three children to be silent and lets the South African boy go, saying "Let's give him a chance". Hans killed him later because he had seen him but Elizabeth would only have dismissed Hans as a helper in the operations). It's obvious that murdering that old woman whose husband had liberated the concentration camp was difficult to her.

Also Philip's patiotic feelings are roused, f.ex. when he learns about the Soviet submarine. He also believes the story about the poisoned wheat and only after it is revealed as false he begans to feel that the offer was killed in vain.

Before all, it was Philip, not Elizabeth, who killed on his own, only on ten years old. I wonder if it was that crime which caused him to be more individualistic and more immune to indoctrination than Elizabeth who is emotionally abused by her mother and also General Zhukov, however human he seemed to be.

Yet, the war in Afghanistan shows that Philip is different than many young Americans and other Westerners who opposed the war in Vietnam for on the moral basis. Instead, Philip feels that it's "us" fightning "them" - the question if the Soviet Union has any right to be in Afghanistan doesn't exist to him.

sistermagpie · December 21, 2018

16 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

She's not one to ask big favors of the KGB or think they owe them anything (serving is something to be proud of not to get things for) but she did it for Philip's son. It's unfair to not note that Elizabeth reached out to the KGB over a family member out of love for him FIRST.

Yup, I was pretty surprised at that gesture (that she went that extreme so quickly) because I would definitely think Elizabeth would think any young man should be serving with honor. This was also a boy she probably wasn't very happy about existing.

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She didn't just allow him. She suggested it. She saw how unhappy he was and suggested he retire.

He chose to be a KGB spy. He was told it would be a hard life. He chose it. That's not on Elizabeth. If he ever gave it up without her covering for his ass he'd have been dead in a few days.

This was explained in show. It was over the "last few months" that she was finally cracking and that lead to her being brusque to everyone.

And she wasn't kind to him because he was back to KGB. But because he was taking some of this massive burden off of her shoulders. It never should have been on her shoulders alone, in the first place. He signed onto this gig. It was meant to be both of them. She had him retire for his own well being and it absolutely destroyed her mental health.

She's not perfect but she gets no credit for willing to take on the work of two master spies all by herself just so he can be OK? Philip shirked his responsibilities for years. He let her take on the whole thing all by herself. Saw it was killing her. And still let her until Chicago. When she saw it was killing him she acted.

I disagree with this slightly. Not the part about Elizabeth doing something for him--she clearly did want to make things better for him by encouraging him to quit. But I don't think it's true to say that she was covering his ass or he was shirking his responsibilities or making her carry the whole burden by doing it--or even that he'd have been dead without her, because he was working Kimmy that whole time. And I definitely agree that she was only in this terrible state for the last few months, as Philip says. (I think her distance from Henry was about more than burn out so that took longer and that type of thing happens with non-spy parents too.) I wouldn't even say she was brusque to everyone. She was brusque to Philip, imo, because he was the only person it was safe to show her real emotions with. With everyone else she was trying to play whatever role she played with them.

But we've seen that plenty of Directorate-S agents are sent to work on their own without partners. They're individual agents first, no matter what situation they're set up in. Elizabeth obviously knew this since she was informing on Philip early on--she knew that might get him taken back and leave her on her own. Philip can't have a responsibility to do a job that he finds morally objectionable just because the person he was paired with wants to keep working any more than she ought to have quit because he didn't want to work anymore. She wasn't doing the whole thing herself, she was just one of the many agents working without a partner, like Robert or William or Harvest. Which is probably the situation she wanted when she first started.

But that said, I think it's more complicated a compromise. They both almost have to live this way for a while to see that they don't like it and recognize who they are. In earlier years, imo, they relied on the other person to balance them and push them to show the side of themselves that wasn't the dominant one. I think people see that as more with Elizabeth because it's easier to see how Elizabeth really does need the human side of herself and she's happier and healthier with Philip pushing her to connect with people. (Without it she became pretty hopeless and brutal, and that made her a worse spy as well.)

But I think Elizabeth does the same for Philip, who during S6 came to see that just as she wasn't the spy robot she thought she wanted to be, he also wasn't "Philip Jennings" as he thought he wanted to be. Elizabeth is, I think, touched when she sees Philip doing what he did in the pilot--tossing away the life she thinks she values over everything else in order to dive into a mission that turned out to be grim and bloody and pointless just to protect her and help her. But he was also getting himself back into spying because he saw a situation where he thought it was necessary. He did, in his own words, what he thought she would have done. He doesn't, imo, love her in spite of her crazy commitment to the cause but partly because of it. He liked her keeping him on that track, imo, just as much as she liked him keeping her connected to their ordinary life.

So in S6 they try out the lives they both often wondered if they'd be happier in--her the spy with no other connections, him the person with no connection to the problems of the world, and it turns out that, as Philip said, that wasn't working. This isn't a case of opposites attracting--they have a lot of the same values. Philip himself felt like he was shirking his responsibilities, but I think he was only able to do that because he'd stepped back away from people who kept using his feeling of responsibility to get him to do whatever they wanted. He didn't feel guilty for not kidnapping Kimmy, but he didn't leave Oleg out in the cold etc.

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Philip was right there the whole time. He told who they really were right along with Elizabeth (in fact he spoke first.) He said she had to stay close to Pastor Tim (her first mark.) He didn't tell her what things they really do, which would have ended her fascination from the start. It is ridiculous to suggest he was powerless there.

I always thought Philip was, ironically, often the better recruiter with Paige. Elizabeth was too full-court press fanatic too fast. Philip was better at explaining things in ways Paige would understand it. But I think, as I said elsewhere, that the thing was they were both conflicted about it. Elizabeth wanted Paige as a spy--but she really did also want to protect her from a lot of it. Philip didn't want Paige to spy--but he did want her to understand and value what he himself did.

Also, neither of them views their spy life the way outsiders do. Philip might seem like he's more normal, but he's more like Elizabeth than anyone else. Plus there was Paige herself at work there--they ultimately only told her because she told them if they lied she would feel they didn't love or respect her. It was ironic too, I just realized, that I assume that the biggest factor in Philip accepting Paige as a spy was that Paige herself wanted it while Elizabeth described Henry as becoming "exactly who Philip wanted him to be" when he was just as hands-off with Henry. Like there was some projecting there.

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That was true in season 4. By season 6, he wanted her to go against Centre's orders and she did. By the end, the power dynamic is reversed. Elizabeth needs him. His opinion of her means more to her than her devotion to the KGB.

That's not quite the way I saw that. Elizabeth wasn't following the Centre's orders, she was following the orders of a secret coup that went against the party--she just didn't know it. He was on the side of the reformers and obviously thought she should be too, but what he told her was that she should actually think and make a decision herself instead of just following orders as if she had no responsibility for what they did. And I think she listened because she does value his opinion, but not just because she loves him. I think she also respected it--he'd been right about this stuff before. Philip gave her the information that was being kept from her.

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Yes. The idea that Philip could have just defected with the kids and lived a great life is frankly laughable. Philip and Elizabeth don't even have anything much to offer! They did briefly in the very first episode but Philip killed their meal ticket. They have always been siloed. Their missions discrete with no knowledge of how they work into the overall plans. Their only contacts are easily disposable handlers whose real names they don't even know. The exception was Oleg (who was really small potatoes.) The only way they could be of any use to American authorities was if they stayed as spies and reported back. But then what's the point? It's the same lifestyle.

I think they had a great deal to offer as Illegals. Harvest was a goldmine and they were just following him. Knowing the way they did things would be huge.

But that said, I agree that defection was a pipe dream even in the pilot when they at least at Timoshev to bargain with--I mean, the life Philip was imagining was not going to happen. I was always surprised at how many people seemed to think that was still a goal for Philip after that. That is, when he'd talk about running or leaving people seemed to think he was talking about defecting or, more often, trying to go into hiding like Irina did (how did that work out)? Even when he was explicitly talking about going back to Russia. That was the alternative he was offering from S4 on.

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We don't know what would have happened if Elizabeth died of glanders or if Philip took the kids and left her. But it is more plausible that without Elizabeth keeping him at least vaguely tethered to the KGB he would have quickly ended up dead, in prison or both than he would have ended up living a totally normal American life on American soil.

Yeah, that normal American life seems totally unlikely--but he'd probably be okay with dying after setting up the kids to be okay. Maybe he'd wait it out until they were older and then try to do whatever.

But I also never agreed with people who felt that plan would be emotionally good for him, like getting rid of Elizabeth and just being him and the kids, because to me that always seemed like it would be Philip ending up alone. Not that he's entitled to being totally happy or anything, but I think he'd be far lonelier and lost in that life than with Elizabeth wherever. He knew that was the real connection.

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Before all, it was Philip, not Elizabeth, who killed on his own, only on ten years old. I wonder if it was that crime which caused him to be more individualistic and more immune to indoctrination than Elizabeth who is emotionally abused by her mother and also General Zhukov, however human he seemed to be.

Interesting idea! It's very possible. Elizabeth's life really does seem to have been a series of emotional manipulation, even if she herself was open to that because of her personality (like Martha with Clark). Practically all the important people in Elizabeth's life encouraged her she was good because she was so focused on the cause. Her mother, Zhukov, Gabriel, Gregory.

Edited December 21, 2018 by sistermagpie

Roseanna · December 21, 2018

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

But I think Elizabeth does the same for Philip, who during S6 came to see that just as she wasn't the spy robot she thought she wanted to be, he also wasn't "Philip Jennings" as he thought he wanted to be. Elizabeth is, I think, touched when she sees Philip doing what he did in the pilot--tossing away the life she thinks she values over everything else in order to dive into a mission that turned out to be grim and bloody and pointless just to protect her and help her. But he was also getting himself back into spying because he saw a situation where he thought it was necessary. He did, in his own words, what he thought she would have done. He doesn't, imo, love her in spite of her crazy commitment to the cause but partly because of it. He liked her keeping him on that track, imo, just as much as she liked him keeping her connected to their ordinary life.

- - -

That's not quite the way I saw that. Elizabeth wasn't following the Centre's orders, she was following the orders of a secret coup that went against the party--she just didn't know it. He was on the side of the reformers and obviously thought she should be too, but what he told her was that she should actually think and make a decision herself instead of just following orders as if she had no responsibility for what they did. And I think she listened because she does value his opinion, but not just because she loves him. I think she also respected it--he'd been right about this stuff before. Philip gave her the information that was being kept from her.

I think Philip respects and admires Elizabeth. He said to the Orthodox priest that she cares about the whole world. Not "she cares only about the world but not about people" which would have been also true.

Also, when Philip finally told Elizabeth that he had informed on her, he did so by showing both respect for her best qualities and concern for her well-being. He said first that he had told to his pro-Gorbatchov contact that she was the most faithful and dedicated person. After that he tried to make her see what the job her done to her and although he seemed to speak harsly (that she "always believes all" and he would try to make her think so that she should be more human), he spoke out of love to her. He had enough faith in her to believe she could listen and think. Which she did, despite blaming that he had betrayed her.

That conversation was an opposite to the earlier one where Philip chose a completely wrong argument to defend Gorbatchov's policy: that there will soon a pizzeria in Moscow - to which Elizabeth indignantly said that she didn't want Russia to become like America. Oleg used a far better argument to Stan: peace and food, i.e. when so much money isn't used to arms, people could get more things they need in every day life.

sistermagpie · December 21, 2018

53 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

That conversation was an opposite to the earlier one where Philip chose a completely wrong argument to defend Gorbatchov's policy: that there will soon a pizzeria in Moscow - to which Elizabeth indignantly said that she didn't want Russia to become like America. Oleg used a far better argument to Stan: peace and food, i.e. when so much money isn't used to arms, people could get more things they need in every day life.

Yes, I agree. Interesting to think about those two conversations. In the first one Philip's floating the idea of peace, but in a bad way for Elizabeth. Plus he himself of course would love a life where he could bring their two worlds together. But I guess at that point he really didn't even know how to start to approach it and Oleg's argument probably wouldn't have worked with her at that point either since Claudia and the situation had gotten Elizabeth revving up her paranoia and hatred of the US. She would probably be just as indignant at the idea of peace and food at the expense of compromising her ideals.

But by The Summit Philip's far more sure about what he himself feels as well, so his argument is clearer and he really believes it. He's not tiptoeing around anything anymore or trying to be what they called on The Wire "half a gangsta." They're back to being two equals arguing and two spies with different povs who respect each other's. I think he genuinely is furious at Elizabeth's idealism being manipulated and sees it as pure as ever.

Roseanna · December 22, 2018

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Oleg's argument probably wouldn't have worked with her at that point either since Claudia and the situation had gotten Elizabeth revving up her paranoia and hatred of the US. She would probably be just as indignant at the idea of peace and food at the expense of compromising her ideals.

It was ideed Claudia who said that Gorbatchov wanted to abandon their ideals they had fought so long. I think that it was just people like Claudia who had abandoned these ideals. She was so used to fight against "the enemy" that she couldn't stop.

CherithCutestory · December 22, 2018

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But we've seen that plenty of Directorate-S agents are sent to work on their own without partners.

Sure but we haven't seen any with the volume of work Elizabeth had, which she previously shared. The amount of stuff they had these two doing was always ridiculous (Gabriel noted this and had the seven month slow-down and Philip complained about it) and there was no indication halved the work after Philip quit. Someone like William only had to observe things in his own lab.

Elizabeth even told Tuan he should have a partner and it's hard doing this alone. She knew what she was giving up when she told him to retire. And she did it for him.

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think they had a great deal to offer as Illegals. Harvest was a goldmine and they were just following him. Knowing the way they did things would be huge.

He was a goldmine only because they were following him, though. If they turned they'd immediately change the way things worked. Any info they have would immediately be useless.

And we've seen that the Americans don't go out of their way to protect assets. Nina gave a lot of good info and there was no knowledge that she turned.

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

They're individual agents first, no matter what situation they're set up in. Elizabeth obviously knew this since she was informing on Philip early on--she knew that might get him taken back and leave her on her own.

What Elizabeth was "informing" on him about was pretty small potatoes more like bitching than informing. She was very obviously shocked over what happened to them. And furious. Even before she started to fall for him she didn't think that would happen. But, of course, the Elizabeth who did that would have Gregory to work with (on a more limited scale but still) and share things with. There was never the prospect of being completely solo in this work back then.

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

So in S6 they try out the lives they both often wondered if they'd be happier in--her the spy with no other connections, him the person with no connection to the problems of the world, and it turns out that, as Philip said, that wasn't working. This isn't a case of opposites attracting--they have a lot of the same values.

I agree with this completely. Obviously their separate lives had to happen narratively. And made sense for them at that time. I'm not even really criticizing Philip for taking three years off. But Elizabeth did sacrifice a lot to give him those three years. She did take on a lot more work that was emotionally and physically draining. And she did it for him.

I just don't think their relationship is as one-sided as people sometimes think (not that you remotely suggested it was!). She made sacrifices for him, she tried to help his family, she often tried to be supportive (which came a lot harder to her than to him) even when it was over things that hurt her (like trying to comfort him over Martha.)

Edited December 22, 2018 by CherithCutestory

Umbelina · December 22, 2018

Philip wanted to defect for years. At the time the FBI was desperate for any and all information on the Illegals. They gave Timochev a deal, but he was stupid and loud. As Philip said, he wouldn't have been that way.

They would have cut a deal with them.

I also disagree that Philip would have always been alone if Elizabeth refused to defect, and he did with his kids. Philip was caring and loving and gorgeous, he would have found someone.

"Center" was completely for the Coup, the head of Directorate S was involved. It was only Arkady that wasn't, and he was an underling. I can't see any possible way Philip and/or Elizabeth live very long given that the KGB was heavily involved in the coup plans, according to the dialogue on screen, AND they gave Claudia a head start (thanks Elizbeth) and all of the information on how they thwarted their main boss in the KGB.

They will be dead.

Roseanna · December 22, 2018

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I also disagree that Philip would have always been alone if Elizabeth refused to defect, and he did with his kids. Philip was caring and loving and gorgeous, he would have found someone.

Philip was a man who many women find attractive, but he had only loved two women in his whole life which means that he didn't want only "someone". With Elizabeth he could share almost all. To how many women he could have told even 10 % of his life? How many women would have understood him?

sistermagpie · December 23, 2018

7 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Sure but we haven't seen any with the volume of work Elizabeth had, which she previously shared. The amount of stuff they had these two doing was always ridiculous (Gabriel noted this and had the seven month slow-down and Philip complained about it) and there was no indication halved the work after Philip quit. Someone like William only had to observe things in his own lab.

William observed in the lab, but Robert was working jobs like them and so was Harvest, who was also in on the coup etc. I agree that Elizabeth was especially overworked during the summit--that was clear, but I don't assume they just shunted all jobs they would have given to Philip to her any more than I assume Emmett and Leanne's jobs all went to the Jennings later. There's other agents coming and going that we don't know about throughout the show, presumably.

Mostly, though, it just seems unreasonable to expect someone to have to continue in a job where they think they're doing harm just because someone else in the same job thinks it's great. That would presumably make it just as wrong for Philip and Elizabeth to retire together back when Gabriel was explicitly telling them to do so or they were planning it. Really, that was another interesting quirk in Elizabeth's mindset in S6. Gabriel told the two of them to retire and return to the USSR at the end of S4 and they briefly planned to do so at the end of S5. In S6 Elizabeth is insisting to Paige that this job is "for life." There's a lot of things that could mean, of course, and Paige is making herself a traitor, which changes things, but it seemed like Elizabeth was definitely giving her a message of "Don't quit. Must not quit. To quit is to fail" even though others had made it clear that her own undercover job wasn't supposed to be forever.

7 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Elizabeth even told Tuan he should have a partner and it's hard doing this alone. She knew what she was giving up when she told him to retire. And she did it for him.

I agree she told him to retire for him, though I don't actually think she knew the whole of what she was giving up. When she told Philip in S5 that she didn't need him "for this" I think she meant it. I think she expected it to be more like the jobs she was already doing alone where Philip wasn't her partner in the field but was still able to be emotional support the same way. In some ways maybe worrying about Philip was good for Elizabeth on the job, even.

7 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

He was a goldmine only because they were following him, though. If they turned they'd immediately change the way things worked. Any info they have would immediately be useless.

It would be hard to change the entire way they operated, though. We're not talking about specific info like what garage they used, but how they went about things in general, the whole system and life. But I'm not saying that to imply that this would make Philip and Elizabeth safe, just saying that I think the FBI and the CIA would be thrilled to suck them dry and not see them as useless at all. That's why they've been chasing them all these years instead of just trying to kill them. I think Timoshev was telling the truth about that back in the pilot. the KGB didn't make up all their procedures and tricks overnight.

7 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

What Elizabeth was "informing" on him about was pretty small potatoes more like bitching than informing. She was very obviously shocked over what happened to them. And furious. Even before she started to fall for him she didn't think that would happen. But, of course, the Elizabeth who did that would have Gregory to work with (on a more limited scale but still) and share things with. There was never the prospect of being completely solo in this work back then.

I think telling the KGB that someone should be watched as a potential traitor was a lot more than bitching about him. If she was going to bitch about him it would probably be to Gregory. I can't believe somebody born under Stalin wouldn't know those reports were potentially serious, even if she didn't immediately connect it to Philip's harsher treatment in Trust Me. It was really easy to end up in those labor camps. Nobody in a police state thinks the can bitch to the police.

When I say Elizabeth would be alone, I'm not talking about how emotionally isolated or not she might be, just that she'd be an agent without an assigned fake-spouse. She'd be Robert rather than Leanne. She could still be free to form friendships and emotional support systems, of course,as she did with Gregory. But Gregory was not a Directorate S agent and wouldn't be her partner on that level. The KGB wouldn't be giving Gregory jobs that would have gone to Philip. Having Gregory there as a friend and even frequent co-worker would not make him Directorate-S or like Philip. I mean, she's not completely solo in S6 either. Even if we don't count Marilyn and Paige she's got Claudia, who'd have higher security clearance than Gregory. She's got people she works with and a husband.

7 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

But Elizabeth did sacrifice a lot to give him those three years. She did take on a lot more work that was emotionally and physically draining. And she did it for him.

But she didn't do the work for him. She kept working for the KGB because she herself couldn't leave it. The work she was doing was a sacrifice for the sake of the same people it was always for--the world, the USSR, the Centre, her own values. Philip didn't get anything out of Elizabeth continuing to work.

8 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

I just don't think their relationship is as one-sided as people sometimes think (not that you remotely suggested it was!). She made sacrifices for him, she tried to help his family, she often tried to be supportive (which came a lot harder to her than to him) even when it was over things that hurt her (like trying to comfort him over Martha.)

Oh, I agree. I don't think it was one-sided and I see plenty of times where she wants very much to do things or him in a purely generous and open-hearted way. And as you say, that's sometimes harder for her--and probably scarier too. Where as Philip can be sacrificing in similar ways for others--something that makes Elizabeth insecure.

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I also disagree that Philip would have always been alone if Elizabeth refused to defect, and he did with his kids. Philip was caring and loving and gorgeous, he would have found someone.

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip was a man who many women find attractive, but he had only loved two women in his whole life which means that he didn't want only "someone". With Elizabeth he could share almost all. To how many women he could have told even 10 % of his life? How many women would have understood him?

That's more the way I saw that. Philip would have no problem finding a woman who wanted to marry him (it would probably be almost too easy for him), but he wouldn't find somebody who would know him half as well as Elizabeth did. Same thing with his kids.

5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

"Center" was completely for the Coup, the head of Directorate S was involved. It was only Arkady that wasn't, and he was an underling. I can't see any possible way Philip and/or Elizabeth live very long given that the KGB was heavily involved in the coup plans, according to the dialogue on screen, AND they gave Claudia a head start (thanks Elizbeth) and all of the information on how they thwarted their main boss in the KGB.

I don't remember having the impression that the entire Centre was definitely in on it except for the one guy that kept in charge of Directorate-S even when they needed it. I think my impression was just that Arkady didn't know who all was for it and some of them were obviously important. But I honestly don't remember details about that.

Umbelina · December 23, 2018

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That's more the way I saw that. Philip would have no problem finding a woman who wanted to marry him (it would probably be almost too easy for him), but he wouldn't find somebody who would know him half as well as Elizabeth did. Same thing with his kids.

I think that's the difference though. Some see Philip and Elizabeth as a great love story. I just don't, and haven't for quite a while. I see a lot of dysfunction, and Philip more of an addict. In many stories this would be reversed, the man would be the demanding abusive partner, and some would have sympathy for the women, some would just be frustrated that a bright woman continued in a relationship and life that literally made their partner miserable and feeling sick all the time. Philip's words.

Yes, she "let" him quit most operations, but as I said in another thread, he was never really out, never free to choose his own occupation, and God knows Elizabeth treated him like utter shit, not even speaking to him when he practically begged and told her it was important.

I see their relationship as completely abusive, and Philip as either a very sick man in need of a decent shrink (hence his attraction to EST) or a man who "settled" for misery, because of some warped idea about love.

It would have been nice to see his childhood, to see what made him this way.

Lastly, Philip will be dead. I am sure he would be happier living a life in the USA, having contact with his children, doing a job he actually enjoyed, than being dead.

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip was a man who many women find attractive, but he had only loved two women in his whole life which means that he didn't want only "someone". With Elizabeth he could share almost all. To how many women he could have told even 10 % of his life? How many women would have understood him?

30 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't remember having the impression that the entire Centre was definitely in on it except for the one guy that kept in charge of Directorate-S even when they needed it. I think my impression was just that Arkady didn't know who all was for it and some of them were obviously important. But I honestly don't remember details about that.

Their main boss, the head of a very prestigious division in the KGB was definitely in the coup. Claudia, with all of her life long connections was. I'm pretty sure Arkady did say he didn't know how many others from the KGB were, but also I got the impression their were others. I don't feel like looking up dialogue or watching again though, it's possible I am wrong. I don't think so though.

Either way, Philip, Elizabeth, and probably Arkady and Oleg's dad will be dead soon. They will decode those messages Oleg sent to his dad. He's definitely implicated now, especially since 'Elizabeth word vomited all over Claudia twice.

Will Oleg's wife and mother be spared? Who knows? I guess it depends on how pissed off the powerful thwarted Coup members are.

CherithCutestory · December 23, 2018

Philip and Elizabeth chose the winning side. They are in Russia under the leadership of the winners with the protection of Arkady. Chances of them dying are slim to none. Elizabeth is much more likely to die of lung cancer than from the KGB.

If the plot was 100% certain that they all die they would have shown that. They showed the very opposite. The Centre helped get them out and back to the country of a man whose life they saved.

Philip WOULD have been dead if he had tried to defect though like the Bystrovs. Or in a prison in the USSR like Irina. His tethers to Elizabeth saved his life. They've shown us time and time again what happens to those people.

I think reading their relationship as abusive or one-sided requires throwing out the majority of the series (where Elizabeth is consistently comforting, looking out for him, worried about him, making sacrifices for him) and focusing exclusively on a couple of scenes where Elizabeth doesn't want to talk after long days of doing the work of two spies and subsequent fights. But everyone views things their own way. No disputing opinions.

I will say that going back to another topic. Elizabeth asked Philip about his son's name. She has asked about his family.

Edited December 23, 2018 by CherithCutestory

Umbelina · December 23, 2018

1 hour ago, CherithCutestory said:

Philip and Elizabeth chose the winning side. They are in Russia under the leadership of the winners with the protection of Arkady. Chances of them dying are slim to none. Elizabeth is much more likely to die of lung cancer than from the KGB.

A coup made up of the same people IRL happens in less than 3 years. Gorbachev had almost no power when this episode happened IRL. Arkady is an underling, his boss was in the Coup.

1 hour ago, CherithCutestory said:

If the plot was 100% certain that they all die they would have shown that. They showed the very opposite. The Centre helped get them out and back to the country of a man whose life they saved.

They showed us NOTHING. Not one story had a real ending. Not one. Except Claudia who said she would fight on, and that certainly would mean eliminating the couple who fucked everything up.

Oh wait, and Oleg. Oleg will spend the rest of his life in prison.

1 hour ago, CherithCutestory said:

Philip WOULD have been dead if he had tried to defect though like the Bystrovs. Or in a prison in the USSR like Irina. His tethers to Elizabeth saved his life. They've shown us time and time again what happens to those people.

No, he would not have been, he would be nothing like the Bystrovs or Timochev, he would be in protective custody and living under a new name and identity. The FBI, in reality, was EXTREMELY good at accomplishing that. It was one thing even the KGB respected and admired, how well they hid people.

He's dead any moment right now in the USSR.

1 hour ago, CherithCutestory said:

I think reading their relationship as abusive or one-sided requires throwing out the majority of the series (where Elizabeth is consistently comforting, looking out for him, worried about him, making sacrifices for him) and focusing exclusively on a couple of scenes where Elizabeth doesn't want to talk after long days of doing the work of two spies and subsequent fights. But everyone views things their own way. No disputing opinions.

I will say that going back to another topic. Elizabeth asked Philip about his son's name. She has asked about his family.

I think seeing this story as a great love is incredibly bizarre. Different strokes.

Elizabeth asked about his son. I didn't comment on that. I commented on the way the writers delved deeply into Elizabeth's family and mother, and Philip and Elizabeth discussed her mother multiple times. Not once did she ask about his.

I don't really blame Elizabeth for that, because the writers probably did that without thinking, since their only real interest was Elizabeth, and her bookends, mommy and daughter.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Umbelina

Roseanna · December 23, 2018

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

A coup made up of the same people IRL happens in less than 3 years.

That coup failed, which was no wonder because it was really pathetic: the members of the junta were drunk in the TV!

Although Gorbatchov lost his power after the failed coup and the Soviet Union fell, it was Yeltin, the leader of Russia, who won (although also he then failed to reform the country) as well as especially the Baltic states that used the opportinity to regain their independence.

Roseanna · December 23, 2018

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip wanted to defect for years. At the time the FBI was desperate for any and all information on the Illegals. They gave Timochev a deal, but he was stupid and loud. As Philip said, he wouldn't have been that way.

They would have cut a deal with them.

Philip wanted to defect in the pilot but didn't. He said to William that he wanted to live a normal life but not without Elizabeth, but that's not the same as defecting. A defector can't live a normal life. Ever.

In general, I believe the deeds, not the words, tell what a person really wants. One can dream about all kinds of things, f.ex. becoming an author or a NHL player, but if one isn't ready to do what the goal demands, those dreams aren't real. Also, one can believe that one is such and such person (f.ex. brave, helpful, faithful), but it's only the deeds that show if one's self-image is true.

It doesn't really matter what choices Philip would have made if he hadn't loved Elizabeth. One always makes one's choices in the certain circumstances and many times one must chose between two values that both are important, like Stan, Nina and Oleg did.

5 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Philip WOULD have been dead if he had tried to defect though like the Bystrovs. Or in a prison in the USSR like Irina. His tethers to Elizabeth saved his life. They've shown us time and time again what happens to those people.

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

No, he would not have been, he would be nothing like the Bystrovs or Timochev, he would be in protective custody and living under a new name and identity. The FBI, in reality, was EXTREMELY good at accomplishing that.

FBI may be good to protect those in protective custody irl, but in the show's universe it wasn't. Even it would have, living under a new name and identity would mean living a lie, even far more than as illegals.

Roseanna · December 23, 2018

7 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I am sure he would be happier living a life in the USA, having contact with his children, doing a job he actually enjoyed, than being dead.

That depends on how you define happiness.

Before the and during war our schoolchildren sang a song based on the Roman proverb "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori". Although we know that the death in the war is far from beautiful, physically it's mostly really horrible, I still believe that it's different to die if death has a meaning. If Philip would be executed in the USSR, he would have an inner satisfaction that by chosing to help Gorbatchov he had done his utmost for his country.

Instead, as a defector Philip wouldn't help to feel guilt and shame for betraying his county and people he had worked with as well as not helping his country when it needed him most.

Of course it would be different if Philip were an ideological opponent like the agricultural specialist Alexei Morozov, but he wasn't. He was a Russian patriot at heart. And a patriot doesn't ask if some other country is better than his own or would offer him more, but want to work to make his country better.

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