Soccer (or Football, if you prefer) in the US

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm still rooting for the Netherlands with 2 minutes of stoppage time, but they disappeared from the PK to the end of the first half. Then, when they seemed to be fresher for that next 15 minutes or so, they didn't really take advantage. 

Cracker of a final on Sunday though. 

[proserpina65]

Well that was a little unexpected given that the Netherlands had been playing at least marginally better than England the whole tournament.  On one hand, I'm thrilled for England, but on the other, I'm sad for the Netherlands.

The final should be fun.  I expect Spain to win, with their excellent form this tournament, but you never know.

Somewhere in England, Steve McManaman is STILL criticizing Gareth Southgate's team selection, I just know it.

[DoctorAtomic]

I was rooting for the Netherlands, but taking our overall discussion here, Southgate had no problem taking off Kane in both matches, while Ronaldo remained in the game. 

Like I said before, England just played better. The Netherlands just disappeared for long stretches. 

[blackwing]

Netherlands played well at times.  They didn't play that well in the group stage and advanced as the third place team.  Finishing in third place was a blessing, because they got to play Romania and Turkey before losing to England.  Meanwhile, the second place team in their group, France, had to play the tougher Belgium and Portugal before losing to Spain.

In this particular game I thought they were looking good, they seemed to have more bursts of energy and drive than England did.  Much has been said about the Harry Kane PK, with many complaining that it shouldn't have been a penalty.  It seems to me that action would have resulted in a free kick if it was outside the box, so inside the box it should be a PK.  

Virgil Van Dijk in particularly and the Dutch manager are loudly complaining that the referee was wrong and that he disappeared immediately at FT so he wouldn't have to talk to anyone.

Will be a good game on Sunday.  Wondering if England can surprise.  I feel for Phil Foden, he has been a non-factor for much of this tournament.  He played better yesterday and had numerous chances, but just couldn't score.  You could see the look of disappointment on his face that he got subbed out.

I wonder if Southgate will make any changes.  I know there is zero chance he will drop Harry Kane.  Even though Kane hasn't had a great tournament, he's still in the running for the Golden Boot.  Based on Foden's efforts yesterday, he probably wouldn't be dropped either.  But I would give Cole Palmer the start, England needs to do something to generate more scoring.

 

Crazy Colombia / Uruguay game.  Colombia played half the match with only 10 men and managed to win.  At the end, some Uruguay players got into fistfights with Colombian fans.  I see today that they claim that they were defending their families.  I'm wondering why the Uruguay families would be sitting in an area with mostly Colombian fans?

I am happy for James Rodriguez.  I remember him as a young kid who openly sobbed buckets of tears when Colombia got eliminated from a WC.  Now here he still is, and is the leader.

I don't expect Colombia to have any chance against Argentina, but at least they made it to the final.

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm wondering why the Uruguay families would be sitting in an area with mostly Colombian fans?

The entire stadium was mostly Colombian fans, so hard to sit somewhere else. Though you'd think the players would have their own section. 

I was saying last night that Colombia showed how to manage a game properly down a man to still get a result. No disrespect, but Panama is no Uruguay. 

[proserpina65]

On 7/11/2024 at 11:32 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

but taking our overall discussion here, Southgate had no problem taking off Kane in both matches, while Ronaldo remained in the game. 

Yep, Southgate being willing to sacrifice the star player for the good of the team was the changing point in the match.  There was a lot of pre-tournament talk about bringing Toney versus bringing Watkins but turns out bringing both was the answer.

So Berhalter is finally gone.  Should never have been given a new contract after the World Cup.  But now the questions is who they'll find to take his place when anyone who might actually elevate the team's performances is unlikely to be willing to submit to USA Soccer's requirement for much of the control.

[DoctorAtomic]

40 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

So Berhalter is finally gone.  Should never have been given a new contract after the World Cup.  But now the questions is who they'll find to take his place when anyone who might actually elevate the team's performances is unlikely to be willing to submit to USA Soccer's requirement for much of the control.

I don't know how true, but I read Klopp turned it down. Everyone knows they need to go back to the Klinsmann model, and give them 6 years carte blanche. But they're also not willing to pay for that level of talent. 

They didn't get out of an eminently advanceable group. They probably weren't going to beat Columbia, but it would have been a good test. And with no extra time and going right to penalties, and all the red cards, who knows?

It's two years till 2026. Who can step in and elevate the squad? What's the expectations here being the hosts of the World Cup? I don't think squeaking out of the group and losing to a second tier European squad in the 16 is going to be a satisfactory outcome. Is quarterfinals good enough? 

They need a coach that can manage results and get the players to stop shooting themselves in the foot. Basically, literally the same plan since 2002.

At some point, they're going to have to beat a better team, and they won't be playing a meaningful match until the WC opener. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'll tip my hat to Canada. I think they got tight in the 85th minute, which again, my theme for the Copa was this was really about managing results. They still made it to the wire in a major international tournament. Right now, out of the CONCACAF, they are the premier squad going into 2026. Had the USA ended up here, it would have been an unqualified success.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

Probably not the best soccer game for a general audience; not much shots and up and down, but Spain was masterful tactically. Bickford came up big to keep the game tied, but Spain had too much movement up front. 

You have to think if this squad stays in tact, Spain has to be the front runner for 2026.

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Probably not the best soccer game for a general audience; not much shots and up and down, but Spain was masterful tactically. Bickford came up big to keep the game tied, but Spain had too much movement up front. 

You have to think if this squad stays in tact, Spain has to be the front runner for 2026.

It ended pretty much how I expected given the way Spain had been playing this tournament but at least England made them fight for it.

[DoctorAtomic]

Credit to Columbia too. They came out strong in the first half, but in not getting a goal, I think they got a little frustrated. Argentina knew they could play a 120' game because of they're depth. Plus, they showed they can win without Messi, which makes them even more dangerous. 

I was surprised James got taken out after 90' though. 

I could see Columbia getting into the quarterfinals. 

No idea why current odds have England, France, and Brazil over Argentina though. 

[proserpina65]

Gareth Southgate has resigned as England manager.  He framed it as having put into it all he could, which may be true, but it's still a shame since he's been far more successful than any England manager since 1966.

[DoctorAtomic]

That's a surprise he didn't want to go through to the World Cup. They're a strong favorite for the semis.

Unless he means that the current players just can't go any further than this. 

[blackwing]

He's been more successful than any England manager in decades, but I feel like he is just tired of the criticism.  I do feel like he made some very poor choices.  Cole Palmer was probably the most exciting player in the Premier League this season... I think he should have been starting every game.  I would have sat Foden or Kane.  I wonder if Kane was injured?  He just didn't play very well.

Kane, Mbappe, Griezmann, Ronaldo, Romelu Lukaku, Kevin de Bruyne... all disappointments for their teams and probably factored into why their teams didn't advance farther.  For Ronaldo, it was especially true.  The manager pulled out Bruno Fernandes instead of him.  Crazy.

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, blackwing said:

He's been more successful than any England manager in decades, but I feel like he is just tired of the criticism. 

England manager is a more thankless job than prime minister.

[DoctorAtomic]

Could Southgate go to the US? 

[blackwing]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Could Southgate go to the US? 

I think the issue with the U.S. team is that just like English fans, U.S. soccer fans also have high (and possibly unreasonable) expectations.  Whoever coaches the U.S. team will be instantly stepping into an environment where anything less than a deep run at the WC will be viewed as a failure.

I think Southgate maybe is tired of people questioning his decisions.  And he had a lot of them.  Repeatedly selecting Harry Maguire even though Maguire was sucking it up at Man U.  Repeatedly picking Jordan Henderson and Kalvin Phillips for all those years.  Taking Luke Shaw who pretty much didn't play all season.  Not taking Jack Grealish.  Taking Cole Palmer but then hardly using him.  Etc.

It is kind of sad because this Euro was the best result that England has had in years.  But there will always be some what ifs.  For me, it is what if Cole Palmer had started the final.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think expecting the US to get to the quarterfinals is unreasonable though. Barely squeaking out of the group stages and rolling over in the 16 every four years is getting tired. Especially as a host nation. 

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think expecting the US to get to the quarterfinals is unreasonable though. Barely squeaking out of the group stages and rolling over in the 16 every four years is getting tired. Especially as a host nation. 

Except it is kind of unreasonable given the quality of the players.  Maybe not unreasonable for the Copa America, where they absolutely should've gotten out of their group, but the World Cup is a bigger kettle of fish.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think it's within reach. That's only one win in the 16. This is probably the most talented squad in terms of real, international experience that there's ever been. I don't expect them to beat top tier teams, but expecting them to be a top second tier team is fair. Even being in a competitive knockout game for 90 minutes would be a huge improvement. 

It's the constantly advancing on the skin of their teeth and self-inflicted errors that's exhausting. 

Klinsmann was getting them there, and those teams weren't as good.