Torchwood Orgins: Doctor Who/Torchwood discussion

[Luckylyn]

I lot of Torchwood and Jack's origins are connected to Doctor Who.  I think it's a good idea to have a thread devoted to discussion of Doctor Who episodes that are connected to Jack and Torchwood's story.

 

I have this whole theory on how The Doctor is indirectly responsible for getting Ianto killed because he got Harriet Jones removed as Prime Minister in The Christmas Invasion.  If she had been Prime Minister she would have fought the 456 and used Torchwood as a resource.

 

I know that @Captanne wants to discuss Tooth and Claw which contains the birth of Torchwood.  It's kind of amazing that there would be no Torchwood without The Doctor making Queen Victoria see him as a threat

[Swansong]

 

I have this whole theory on how The Doctor is indirectly responsible for getting Ianto killed because he got Harriet Jones removed as Prime Minister in The Christmas Invasion.  If she had been Prime Minister she would have fought the 456 and used Torchwood as a resource.

 

Lol! So true. I guess Green came in after Saxon.

 

I always imagine Ianto's feelings about the Doctor would be very complicated. The show only touched on the idea that Ianto was jealous and threatened because he might take Jack away from him. But the Doctor is the reason he survived Canary Wharf, but also couldn't save Lisa in time. And then he came from an organisation where he was likely indocrinated to see the Doctor as a threat (although judging by the Canary Wharf episodes apparently not a very serious one) and then ended up at one where the opposite was true.

 

Also did TW1 have the Doctor's arm before Jack got ahold of it?

 

I have to watch Tooth and Claw again because I can't remember why the Queen decided the Doctor was a threat enough to start Torchwood even after he helped save them.

 

Speaking of Doctor Who episodes are the team supposed to still remember that they were sent off on a wild goose chase to the Himalayas while Jack, the Doctor and Martha became Britain's most wanted?

Edited July 5, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

I always imagine Ianto's feelings about the Doctor would be very complicated. The show only touched on the idea that Ianto was jealous and threatened because he might take Jack away from him. But the Doctor is the reason he survived Canary Wharf, but also couldn't save Lisa in time. And then he came from an organisation where he was likely indocrinated to see the Doctor as a threat (although judging by the Canary Wharf episodes apparently not a very serious one) and then ended up at one where the opposite was true.

That's a good point  about Ianto having mixed feelings about The Doctor.  It makes me more irritated that Ianto and The Doctor never got any good interaction.  I think Ianto would have a lot of mixed feelings about Torchwood 1 as well.  He worked for them, but their mistakes gave the Cybermen access that cost Lisa her life.

 

Jack made it clear he despised Torchwood 1 in Fragments, but he spent 100 years working for Torchwood with it's anti-Doctor agenda.  Now I have a new theory that Jack may have stuck with Torchwood to maybe protect The Doctor.

[Dizzy76]

 

I have this whole theory on how The Doctor is indirectly responsible for getting Ianto killed because he got Harriet Jones removed as Prime Minister in The Christmas Invasion.  If she had been Prime Minister she would have fought the 456 and used Torchwood as a resource.

I have never thought of this but I kind of love the idea of it. 

 

 

 

Also did TW1 have the Doctor's arm before Jack got ahold of it?

Yes, but I don't remember where I know that from.  Just asked my husband and he's only watched the shows but he remembers it being addressed at some point.  He doesn't remember what was said so I guess we could be wrong about TW1 having it.  But no, I remember that as well.

 

As for Ianto and the Doctor, I always wanted a scene with just the two of them.  I figured they had some things they could have definitely discussed.

[itsmeyousee]

I don't recall anything in T&C DW ep that suggested a particular reason that Queen Victoria decided the Doctor was enemy number one aside from what happened and she wanted her Empire strong and this was a new threat and the Doctor represented that threat. Because he is an Alien.

 

A question i do have about Canary Wharf , is what did TW3 do aside from scavange amongst the wreckage. Did they just watch it on the TV ? Jack would have recognised the Cyberman and the Daleks battling. Owen knows what the convertors look like, so i guess he was one of the ones that went to London after it was over.

 

I really disliked Jack and his very smug attitude in Fragments, his Team was no better.

[Luckylyn]

I think Jack's attitude towards TW1 was hypocritical.  He told The Doctor in The Sound of Drums that he wanted to recreate Torchwood into something better as a kind of tribute to The Doctor, but doesn't acknowledge he was part of Torchwood since before Canary Wharf.  Jack was part of the TW corruption (ex: 456 children exchange) and acts as if the negatives of Torchwood's past have nothing to to with him.  Jack is guilty of horrible things and was able to redeem himself, and he forgives his team even when their errors are catastrophic.   TW1 survivors only got contempt from Jack.  He didn't reach out to them to help them with the trauma, didn't retcon them, and didn't monitor them to make sure they weren't threats.  He aggressively ignored them with allowed Ianto to get away with a lot when he was trying to save Lisa.  Jack took the TW1 tech but abandoned the people.  That seemed like a stupid security risk and a waste of people who could be a valuable resource. 

[itsmeyousee]

The two Jack's syndrome one on TW and one on DW and never shall they meet  LOL. I mean i get that Jack thought Rose had died at Canary Wharf, so he thought TW1 deserved the tragedy they brought down on themselves. But even without the "bigger moments" that his own Team have done what about all the little things, rape spray murdering for an experiment, drugging boyfriends TW 3 don't have anything to be smug about cause they aren't any better.

[Captanne]

Since my surgery last Wednesday night, I'm much better and can now partake a bit more in the conversations.  Hand surgery makes typing difficult.  (CMC, left hand.  Youtube has "delightful" videos.)

 

This is a great idea, Luckylyn!!  Way to think outside the box!

 

To my mind, the great significance of "Tooth and Claw" is the creation of Torchwood as the Queen's way to protect the Empire from aliens.  She created TW and gave it its mandate.  With that, she also gave it the mission of banning the Doctor -- not because he didn't save the Realm, but because she saw him as the source of alien interest in Earth.

 

It's important to have a good grounding in what Torchwood does, why, where and how to understand the series it becomes.

 

It's of small note that Jack himself is an alien (open to debate) and is the one in command at the destruction of the last vestige of any real Torchwood.  (Because as cool as he is, as a commander in any real sense, he sucks like a Hoover.  Common trait in pilots.)

 

Also, Scotland.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

It's important to have a good grounding in what Torchwood does, why, where and how to understand the series it becomes.

I wish it were important, but RTD is/was too interested in giving us the Jack and Gwen show and didn't really bother with the Institute itself.

[Captanne]

Well, without Tooth and Claw (it's all we got), I think Torchwood is less understandable. The series is obtuse anyway.  Might as well take what we can get.

 

I mean, out of all the characters in the spin off series, Torchwood itself got many full episodes devoted entirely to it, yeah?  That's more than Tosh got.

 

Tooth and Claw, all those ones with the crazy lady in charge and the Daleks and the Cybermen at the battle of Canary Wharf, frex.  Isn't that at least three?  I can't remember, is that "Army of Ghosts" and "Domesday"?

Edited July 6, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

 

It's important to have a good grounding in what Torchwood does, why, where and how to understand the series it becomes.

 

I feel like Torchwood itself was a character worth exploration with it's wealth of history and tech but that was lost with COE.  Now Torchwood is just a name.

[Swansong]

 

I think Jack's attitude towards TW1 was hypocritical.  He told The Doctor in The Sound of Drums that he wanted to recreate Torchwood into something better as a kind of tribute to The Doctor, but doesn't acknowledge he was part of Torchwood since before Canary Wharf.  Jack was part of the TW corruption (ex: 456 children exchange) and acts as if the negatives of Torchwood's past have nothing to to with him.  Jack is guilty of horrible things and was able to redeem himself, and he forgives his team even when their errors are catastrophic.   TW1 survivors only got contempt from Jack.  He didn't reach out to them to help them with the trauma, didn't retcon them, and didn't monitor them to make sure they weren't threats.  He aggressively ignored them with allowed Ianto to get away with a lot when he was trying to save Lisa.  Jack took the TW1 tech but abandoned the people.  That seemed like a stupid security risk and a waste of people who could be a valuable resource.

So true. Even when he brings Gwen on his efforts to change the culture at Torchwood  don't extend much beyond his personal feelings for her and protecting her. He says they can do more to help, but what exactly do they do? I never got why he thought the Doctor would be proud of his efforts at Torchwood because they kind of sucked. If anything changed for the better it was in spite of him not really because of him.

 

 

I wish it were important, but RTD is/was too interested in giving us the Jack and Gwen show and didn't really bother with the Institute itself.

I wish it had played a more important role too, but in terms of Torchwood, the show, it played such a minor role they thought they could get rid of it and still have a show called Torchwood so...

[Captanne]

I never got why he thought the Doctor would be proud of his efforts at Torchwood because they kind of sucked. If anything changed for the better it was in spite of him not really because of him.

 

See my comment above about Jack being such a lame leader that he "led" the last vestige of TW right into its own decimation.

 

We need Catrox14 here to defend him!

 

The best I can do is say that his mission was never really to be in charge of TW, it just sort of happened and that he did the best he could against insurmountable odds -- in the story, the 456 (*cough cough bullshit cough cough*) and, in reality, the largest threat to TW of all, RTD himself. 

Edited July 6, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

Well, without Tooth and Claw (it's all we got), I think Torchwood is less understandable. The series is obtuse anyway. Might as well take what we can get.

I mean, out of all the characters in the spin off series, Torchwood itself got many full episodes devoted entirely to it, yeah? That's more than Tosh got.

Tooth and Claw, all those ones with the crazy lady in charge and the Daleks and the Cybermen at the battle of Canary Wharf, frex. Isn't that at least three? I can't remember, is that "Army of Ghosts" and "Domesday"?

Oh, I agree about all of this--Doctor Who did a great job of setting up the Institute and anticipation for the show. The show itself, while having the name, barely did much with Torchwood and its history, purpose, etc. it wasn't consistent, it didn't match what we were told in DW (even after TW1 was destroyed there were still holdings and references). They didn't even stick to their own intro.

I just was very interested in the setup for Torchwood based on DW, and turned out disappointed in what they did with it in the actual show. (Bring back Pete's World Torchwood! Uh...without Rose and 10.5. ;) )

I wish it had played a more important role too, but in terms of Torchwood, the show, it played such a minor role they thought they could get rid of it and still have a show called Torchwood so...

Yeah, crazy, huh??

[Luckylyn]

 

Bring back Pete's World Torchwood

That version of Torchwood seemed like it might actually be competent.

 

I think a great idea for an anthology series would have been a look at Torchwood through the eras.  Each episode would showcase Torchwood in a different year dealing with a variety of threats with Jack as the only character in every episode since he was there for so long.  Torchwood itself had the potential to be a fascinating story, but in the end the show was Gwen's story.  RTD decided she had to be the focal point and that everything else was expendable.  Torchwood itself and Jack who has lived through so much of its existance should have been the stars of the show.

 

Since the crown created Torchwood, does the Queen have authority over the organization?  How is Torchwood funded?  Can you really be beyond the government if it helped create you and pays your bills? 

 

Did the government really leave Torchwood, its wealth of information, and useful tech to it's own devices, especially after the screw up of Canary Wharf?  A take over of Torchwood by the government wouldn't have been that difficult when dealing with just Torchwood 3.  They were undermanned and overworked.  In COE, their hub was easily destroyed.  A spy could have infiltrated to steal info and tech because Torchwood 3 was very vulnerable.

[Luckylyn]

What the hell happened to Flat Holm?  Who is funding it and managing it while Jack and Gwen are all over the place?  What happened to the patients who desperately needed care?

[Dizzy76]

Hahaha, I was just asking my husband those questions (and a few more about the times Jack left with the Doc and after COE)!  I've been sharing with him some of our forum discussions.

[indeed]

As de facto leader of Torchwood, Jack restructured and decided to cost save by closing down TW2 and reassigning Archie to Flat Holm (he couldn't figure out what TW2 was supposed to be doing anyway over there in Scotland). Jack had a separate account opened that could sustain Flat Holm for decades. There, problem solved. (Hey, if RTD can't be bothered to come up with a reason why TW2 was closed, I'll come up with my own!)

[Captanne]

And guess where Ianto is?

[itsmeyousee]

I feel like Torchwood itself was a character worth exploration with it's wealth of history and tech but that was lost with COE.  Now Torchwood is just a name.

That was such a thing for me in MD we had an organisation that didn't exist anymore running round being the heroes and a world wide one that did exist not being mentioned. It was like Torchwood was Jack's and he owned the name and Gwen loved saying it LOL

 

But we did have Two Torchwoods a TW one and DW one and just like Jack never will they meet unfortunately.

 

As for Flat Holm i would assume that Jack set up the funding to be on going. I don't know maybe he patent stuff since he was from the future and set up a trust with that money and since Ianto closed the Rift no new victims just who they already had to continue care for.

[Luckylyn]

I kinda love the idea of Torchwood reverse engineering alien tech, getting patents and selling it to the public which would give one explanation for how they fund themselves.  I think there was an episode of ST: Voyager with a plot like that.  I wonder if Jack would be willing to use his knowledge from the future to make investments.

[Swansong]

 

As for Flat Holm i would assume that Jack set up the funding to be on going. I don't know maybe he patent stuff since he was from the future and set up a trust with that money and since Ianto closed the Rift no new victims just who they already had to continue care for.

Assuming the rift wasn't actually closed I always wondered what would happen to further people who were taken and deposited by the rift. The people looking after Flat Holm didn't know what was really going on and the TW Cardiff no longer exists so no-one else knows about Flat Holm. So are they just abandoned?

[itsmeyousee]

Aside from HOTD , i still think Jack took care and wrapped up everything before he left in COE. There was a very quiet finality about Jack and earth and time to go back to where he came from to me anyway. That's kinda why i was disappointed in the start of MD, it didn't look like Jack did that. It seemed like he just sat up in space in a ship monitoring from afar.

[Dizzy76]

Well that tag scene at the end of COE comes after he's been to see Ianto at the HotD so your take on things still holds up with that.  Ianto is gone (again) and has closed the rift.  There really is nothing left on earth, no reason that he would be compelled to stay.  Well, I suppose he could have stayed for Alice but as she's hating his guts he would definitely consider that a lost cause.

 

Anyway, maybe before saying goodbye to Gwen on the hill he wrapped up everything that needed to be dealt with.  I could buy that.

[Luckylyn]

I realized that going back to Tooth and Claw the Torchwood attitude towards aliens is mostly  alien=bad.   They are almost always threats.    The assumption seems to be that aliens are considered a threat until proven otherwise.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Luckylyn