Maximum Taco
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58 minutes ago, Eyes High said:
Guy Gavriel Kay's material, at least his earlier works (I haven't read anything recent from him), had a lot of nasty stuff and plenty of cruel and sadistic torture as I recall. One of his earliest books featured the graphic rape of a lead character, something GRRM has said he will never do in ASOIAF. There's melancholic heartache, too, but Guy Gavriel Kay is as guilty as GRRM of using lurid material to spice up his stories.
His early works definitely (The Fionavar Tapestry and Tigana), even so I wouldn't say either of them has the degree of cruelty Martin employs in ASOIAF.
He seems to have mellowed quite a bit though. I also think his early works are some of his worst. He didn't really get into writing well until he wrote Lions.
All low fantasy is going to have some sort of cruelty, but I thought we were more highlighting the fact that ASOIAF feels like it's almost unrelenting in it's bleakness. I never felt that way with Kay's work, and I've read almost all of them.
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2 hours ago, ebk57 said:
I'm fairly certain that all of the league would be having heart failure if the big-market, big-star teams weren't getting to the finals. As much as baseball fans (well, most of them) loved the Royals getting to the series, you know MLB was relieved that the Mets were there, too. And if the Super Bowl were Jacksonville and Tampa Bay, they'd blow a gasket. At least the NBA is saying it out loud.
That's something... I guess.
I'm fine if the League is upset. I'm sure the NHL is a little peeved no Canadian teams made it this year and they are experiencing record lows in ratings north of the border.
But the media shouldn't care so much.
Last year when the Yankees (obviously one of the biggest market teams) were in the wildcard the media wasn't saying "If you love baseball, you should be rooting for the Yankees, otherwise you can go to hell."
This year when the Capitals (far and away the best team in the regular season) were on the brink in the second round nobody was saying "If you love hockey and don't root for the Caps you're a goddamn hypocrite!"
Upsets are exciting. Just get into it. There are a ton of great narratives for the Raps making the final, Cinderella team (which is odd cause they are the 2nd seed, but when you expect them to get swept, how else can you describe it?), USA v Canada, can Lebron get it done without Wade and Bosh? Are DeRozan and Lowry better then we thought?
They don't have to be such downers and be like "If the Cavs don't make it, this postseason is unadulterated trash, you, as a basketball fan should go cry in the corner over the death of our game, that's what I'm gonna do!"
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49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:
I do however remember another fantasy series I've read (thank you to whomever described "low" and "high" fantasy, it turns out I've read quite a bit of it after all!) In the Mists of Avalon books, foster-siblings were considered far more "wrong" than biological cousins. Meanwhile, as for this "low" fantasy stuff? Yeah, I won't say "never again" but I will say it's extremely unlikely I'll read any more, though I will probably finish this series if given the chance by GRRM ever publishing. If there is much more flaying and torture though? Screw it. I already feel like I'm covered in excrement I'll never get off, why willingly wade in for more? If the show Ramsay/Sansa crap was the most interesting way to compel Sansa to Jon's arms? I guess it fits with the whole feel of the books, but yuck.
I wouldn't write off all low fantasy, GRRM is crueler then most authors (although if you have Martin fatigue I'd probably avoid Joe Abercrombie as well, he's pretty cruel as well), a guy like Scott Lynch has a nice mix though. Bad things happen, but not nearly as terrible as the stuff that happens in GOT/ASOIAF. Guy Gavriel Kay has found a happy medium between the two as well, he writes what I like to call bittersweet fantasy, not so much cruel and sadistic torture scenes, but melancholic heartache.
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5 minutes ago, SeanC said:
I don't think that's the case. If it were, he could easily have advanced Sansa's story much more in AFFC, whereas in her small chapter allotment there the drama was almost entirely psychological and the actual narrative moved very little.
He could have. He also could have had Tyrion head straight to Meereen. He seems really unwilling to take out stuff that he's written. Even when it doesn't fit usually he seems to just ram it in, cause he's proud of it.
Remember that the Alayne chapter he released as a tease was actually supposed to be in Dance, and he moved it to Winds to keep with his motif of Dance being almost all Essos. And if that Sansa chapter was supposed to be in Dance, I'm assuming a bunch more were also supposed to be. Who knows where Sansa is actually supposed to be when Jon "dies"? Is she married already then?
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9 minutes ago, SeanC said:
While one never knows how far or fast a plot will advance once it gets going, I have a really hard time believing that Sansa's TWOW plot is going to accelerate that rapidly. We've read Alayne I already, basically a setup chapter; there's kind of an implication that Alayne II is going to be the tourney, given all the talk about it and potentially ominous foreshadowing. There's probably 4-5 more Alayne chapters, based on past precedent and the overall size of the book, and Littlefinger's plan is nowhere near the stage of actually launching an invasion. While I'm sure things will happen to shake up the situation (e.g., Shadrich trying to kidnap Sansa), to go from where the story starts to Sansa getting married and then invading the North in such a span seems like a stretch to me.
I agree. The timelines don't match up.
But I think this is also another "knot" for George. I've mentioned before that he plans big events for his characters (Ned's death, Red Wedding, Battle for Meereen), and then tries to write them there. In Meereen he needed to have Quentyn, Tyrion, and Victarion arrive at roughly the same time that Daenerys left. Here I think he's trying to get Jon, Sansa (and Stannis?) to Winterfell at roughly the same time too. Could be wrong, but it just seems to be the way he tries to do things.
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13 hours ago, Umbelina said:
There was a really good post in this weeks episode thread, about how very bleak and joyless the show has been for a long time. I feel the same way of course, but felt while reading the books as well. Frankly, to me, by a very slim photo-finish, the books are even bleaker than the show.
For example, yes, Tyrion is boring in Meereen, but at least he's not still endlessly wandering and wondering where whores go.
For another, at least the show is moving things along, and frankly, the books seem to just spin in sewers endless with no end in sight.
My other question is, just how much do you think the TV show will diverge from the books (as GRRM intended before they passed him up?) Obviously I'm not talking about combining show characters/plots in a logical way, trimming some of the masses of fat. More, I'm talking about, for example, Sansa's story. In the books was she going to end up with Ramsay after all? Or, do you think the writers have any real clue about where Arya's story was heading? Was that something GRRM shared with them, for example, because she is an end game character?
I got the feeling from that latest extra or insider video where D & D were interviewed and saying Hodor came from George that getting information from GRRM NOW was like pulling teeth, just the way they said it. It gave me the impression he is absolutely no longer forthcoming about characters and arcs or stories, which frankly, fits right in with my opinion of him.
So, I guess, 3 questions there. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
1) Divergences - In my opinion all our main characters, meaning the ones designated as "Major POVs" in the books who are not yet dead (Dany, Tyrion, Jon, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Theon, Davos, Jaime, Cersei, Sam, Brienne) are headed towards largely the same end, if some are getting there in different ways.
2) In regards specifically to Sansa's story I don't think she's going to have a ton of interaction with Ramsay in the books, this is just the show trying to compress some storyline, eliminate what are in the end superfluous characters (sorry Jeyne Poole, you are heart breaking, but ultimately pointless to the story's endgame), and add interaction between our main players. It's more shocking and horrible to see Ramsay abuse Sansa, then it is to see him abuse Jeyne. I think in the books Jon will descend on Winterfell with the wildlings, at the same time Harry the Heir and the Knights of the Vale will attack in Sansa's name. There whatever happens at the Battle of the Bastards will play out largely the same, and Jon and Sansa will reunite then after the battle.
3) In regards to Arya's story, I honestly don't know. I think at the beginning GRRM intended for Arya to have Sansa's current storyline, relationship with Tyrion, escape to the North, reunion with Jon, retaking of Winterfell. But then he decided to send her into a holding pattern over Braavos. It seems like he doesn't know what to do with her anymore. I'm sure George shared his endgame with D&D, but it might not make sense now cause so much of her story is smushed into Sansa's.
9 hours ago, Umbelina said:I do think this story is darker and more grim, although I admit I don't read much fantasy. I read Tolkien and loved it as a teenager but I'm really not interested in reading it as an adult. I own, and have tried to watch the DVD's and honestly, I fall asleep every time, though I keep intending to try them again, since so many love them.
Anyway, about GoT, we get a few seconds of joy when Sansa and Jon reunite, but that is tiny in the whole scope of things. Horror is reveled in, as his sexual sadism, all manner of cruelty, and also incredible bleakness with the peasants hopeless to survive winter, even if they do survive the zombies.
Is all fantasy this unrelentingly dark?
Also, which do you think is the darker, grimmer, uglier tale, the book, or the show?
No, most fantasy is a lot more uplifting.
Game of Thrones is part of a relatively new breed of fantasy termed "Low Fantasy," this fantasy tries to exude a more gritty, real, dark approach. Examples include Joe Abercrombie's The First Law, or Scott Lynch's The Gentlemen Bastards Sequence. Magic is rare, and if used almost always comes with a horrible cost. Supernatural elements are typically downplayed. There are rarely sentient races other then humans, and if they exist they don't have a lot of interaction with humans, and may be near extinction. The characters are human, fallible and prone to death. Antagonists are painted with strokes of grey.
This is in contrast to "High Fantasy", like The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, or The Chronicles of Narnia. Magic is obvious and present, if not utterly commonplace, and comes easy and without cost to several, if not all. It's set in a world where there are other sentient supernatural races (Elves, Dwarves, Goblins, Satyrs, Talking Animals etc.) that have frequent interaction with humans. The protagonists are epic, heroic, larger then life, and usually do the right thing (sometimes with a misstep or two). Side characters frequently die, but main characters rarely do. Antagonists (at least the Big Bad) are horribly, irredeemably evil, and the only option for our heroes is to destroy them utterly returning peace to the land.
In regards to Game of Thrones, the books are a much more grim tale then the show is.
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4 hours ago, mojoween said:
Robin Lundberg said this morning "if you are a fan of the game, you have to root for the Cavs to get to The Finals."
Nope. Full stop. First, if you say I "have" to do something I'm going to be contrary. Second, was not Toronto basically the second best team in the East all season? It's not going to be the apocalypse if the Raptors win.
On another note, I just cannot root for a Billy Donovan-led anything.
Sigh. Mike and Mike are doubling down on the "NBA doesn't want a Thunder/Raptors Finals" narrative.
Only the NBA is so anti upset.
If this was happening in any other league there'd be so much excitement that things aren't going exactly according to script.
When the 8 seed LA Kings powered their way to the Stanley Cup. Everyone in hockey was all "CAN YOU BELIEVE IT!?!?!"
When the wildcard Royals and Giants met in the 2014 World Series everyone was like "THIS IS THE GREATEST PLAYOFFS EVER!!!"
When there's a chance (not a certainty but a CHANCE) of an OKC/TOR finish, everyone in NBA media freaks. Why is it fun to see everything go predictably? I want an upset! And that's not just because I'm a Raps fan. Why bother watching if at the beginning of the playoffs you can say "Cavs and Dubs" and the it turns out to be "Cavs and Dubs"? And I'm not trying to hate on Cleveland or Golden State, both exciting teams that would produce a no doubt thrilling NBA Finals, but part of the fun of the postseason in any sport is its unpredictability, the NBA seems to have ignored that entirely.
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15 minutes ago, SeanC said:
No, they don't question it. They've been raised with it, and it's completely in line with Westeros' social structure (and, really, ours; nobody would expect a modern woman to agree to take her husband's lovechild into her household against her will).
I don't know about that.
If a man had a lovechild, and the modern woman wanted to stay with the modern man, they'd be expected by conventional standards to take the boy in, especially if his mother was dead, or unable to care for him (which Jon's is no matter what theory you ascribe to.) The modern man definitely wouldn't be expected to abandon his son for the sake of his wife and new family, that'd be seen as barbaric in modern society. Maybe he could do a modern version of fostering him by sending him to boarding school or something, but I don't think this would be expected of him, just an option.
And of course Modern!Cat would have the option of leaving Modern!Ned, which she doesn't in Westerosi culture. But in modern culture Modern!Ned wouldn't be expected to send Modern!Jon away, if he wanted to keep and care for him.
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22 minutes ago, SeanC said:
None of the kids are in a position to confront their mother, except Robb once he becomes lord/king, at which point Jon's not around anymore.
Even so, Robb and Sansa don't even seem to question it, Arya at least seems to be like "Why are we treating him like this? He's our brother" Robb pretty much just ignores it when these questions come up, neither agreeing nor disagreeing, Sansa actually goes a step further and rebukes her with "Half-brother."
Just my opinion, obviously your mileage may vary.
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On 5/22/2016 at 5:43 PM, RedheadZombie said:
On the show, I wish we could have seen an indication that Robb, Arya, and Bran had an opinion on Jon's treatment. I wish one of them would have confronted Cat. But as the show presented it at least, everyone enabled Cat's behavior, which ensured that it would never change. I also think Cat's treatment was possibly an insecurity regarding her relationship with Ned, perhaps because she knew she was never his intended.
To the book readers - did any POV in the book address Cat and Jon's relationship? Other than Cat and Jon, that is.
Mostly speculation and feelings, but to me it always seemed that the only one who was absolutely unequivocally accepting of Jon as her brother was Arya. Even Robb at certain points treated him like a bastard, although mostly in his younger days.
I kinda ascribe this to the fact that in the books Jon and Arya are said to be the most "Stark-like". Robb, and Sansa both trending more towards the Tully side, at least in their looks. Because of this, and the way Jon is treated by Ned, Robb especially has a little bit of resentment towards him, not enough to make him treat Jon with anything but love (especially once he's an adult), but enough to work it's way beneath the surface. Robb feels the need to assert himself as Ned's first trueborn son in the face of this kid who, while a bastard, looks and acts more like what people think a Stark should. So when his mother puts that distinction on Jon he's willing to allow it without too much resistance, letting her do the dirty work.
IMO in the books all of them, except Arya, enable Cat's treatment of Jon, and remember in the books Arya is 9, so she's not really in the position to confront her mother about her behavior, all she can do is question it in private or to her siblings "Why do we treat Jon differently? Why can't he sit with us at the high table?" and she doesn't understand when Robb or Sansa say "Cause he's a bastard."
Note: I give Bran and Rickon a pass here, they're 7 and 3 respectively in the books, so they treat Jon just like anyone, and when their mom says he's a bastard they just accept it as true and a simple fact that he needs to be treated differently because of it, cause she's their mom and she says so.
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8 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:
When will they show Lady Stoneheart and the mighty Victarion Greyjoy? at the end of Season 6 perhaps.
Probably never.
They've pretty much effectively combined Victarion and Euron into one character now. I'm assuming Euron will personally go to Meereen to woo Dany (instead of sending Victarion like in the books.)
I've been hoping for a long time for Stoneheart, one of my favourite characters, but each episode we don't see her, it makes it more and more unlikely. But, since the Blackfish has retaken Riverrun, that does give both Jaime and Brienne an opportunity to get back on track for their AFFC storyline, as Brienne heads to enlist the Blackfish's forces and Jaime will probably head to beseige the Tullys. And that storyline relied heavily on Stoneheart, so maybe late in the season, we'll see her? I doubt it still, but who knows, the show has surprised me this season.
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28 minutes ago, RHJunkie said:
I'm proud of the Raptors for digging themselves out of the 0-2 series deficit. They have accomplished many firsts this season and post-season that all Raptors fans will be happy with regardless of the outcome of this series - but seeing them tie it will make a series loss a little more heartbreaking than if they were to have lost in convincing fashion.
Maybe a little, but the Raptors goal in this playoffs, other then the obvious goal (to win as much as possible), was to seek legitimacy. After struggling through 2 close series against the Pacers and the Heat it could be argued they were no closer to that then when they started. Everyone said the Pacers came dangerously close to being the second 7 seed to knock off a 2 seed in a 7 game series, and thus the Raptors didn't deserve to be the 2 seed. Then when they struggled against the Heat everyone said if Bosh and Whiteside were healthy they would've dominated the Raptors on route to a date with Lebron. The Raptors got no credit for 2 series victories, so much so that several (if not most) people were not only predicting a Cavs win but a Cavs SWEEP. Would they have called for a Cavs sweep if Miami had been their opponent? I doubt it.
If the Raptors had gotten swept in 4 laughers by the Cavs it would've just enhanced that narrative and downplayed the Raptors accomplishments this season/postseason, but pushing the Cavs to 6 (even 7) games and then losing? Nobody can doubt the Raptors right to call themselves one of the best teams in the East now. Winning now and then losing the series might be painful, but it adds to their legitimacy in this league and that's more important then undergoing a little heartbreak.
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1 hour ago, Crs97 said:
Meh, it looked like the refs decided to make up for the no-calls in the first by making some egregious calls in the 4th, but at least it's a series now. I wonder if Toronto will have any problems at customs or if that was just a Canadian welcome.
Luckily in Toronto we clear American Customs before we leave Canada. Pearson International Airport has US Border Guards and Customs Agents inside. So you clear customs, then security and then board your flight, and when you fly into the States you disembark like you were flying domestically. Once the Raptors get on their charter they can just relax.
Or do you mean you wonder if Cleveland had any trouble at Canadian customs?
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Wow. What a game!
Series evened! We don't go quietly up North. Scratch and claw to the finish baby! Proud of my Raptors closing strong and winning this one!
Doing the small things early is clearly putting some pressure on the Cavs.
Seriously though, screw you NBA, you tried to put the fix in for the Cavs, and it didn't work, at least not tonight!
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2 hours ago, Crs97 said:
Total crap that Jones is suspended a game while Green isn't. It was so clearly an intentional kick. Way to go, league. I hope the Thunder pick an important player to take him out. Apparently the league will let it go if the name is big enough.
The league is just total BS.
Watching the Raps/Cavs game and the Raps, who made it to the line the 3rd most times in the regular season, made it to the line 0 times in the first half. Cleveland didn't even get a foul called against them in the 1st quarter. I'm admittedly biased towards the Raptors, but I hope anyone can see that this officiating is just ridiculous and deliberately biased towards the Cavs tonight.
League is obviously trying to hand the Finals to Lebron and Curry.
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3 hours ago, FemmyV said:
I can't imagine how there is any running away from the NK now. If they make it to the wall, it will be because he wants them to.
Or they get help. Coldhands? Benjen?
I also find it pretty unbelievable that Meera can get Bran back to the Wall solo. They barely made it to the cave and that was with Hodor, Summer and Jojen in addition to a little Children of the Forest last minute backup.
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YES! My Raps won a game! Super happy that they aren't getting swept, especially after pretty much every sports authority (including several Canadian ones) predicted Cavs in 4 straight.
Awesome to see some resilience after the Cavs dummied them in two straight in Cleveland. Well you ain't in Cleveland no more, welcome to the 6 Lebron! Great games from DeRozan and Biyombo, flashing that Mutombo finger wag in Kyrie's face.
I hope they can carry this intensity to Game 4. I still expect the Cavs to win the series (how could you not?), but if the Raps could push and give 'em a little scare and a taste of adversity that'd be just wonderful.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!
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28 minutes ago, screamin said:
I really don't think Jaime is fully on the side of Cersei maneuvering to get Margaery and their unborn grandchild killed, if Margaery is in fact pregnant. Jaime is more pragmatic than Cersei and would probably realize that they need the Tyrellls to stay in power and if Margaery dies the Tyrells have no motive to continue supporting them.
And I don't think it would really be in character for Tommen to find out the Tyrrells had killed Joffrey and told his mother straight off. He must have a whole lot of ambivalence about whether he's glad Joffrey's dead, he still loves Margaery and must know that telling Cersei her family killed her favorite son puts a target on her back. But even if he did, I don't buy that Jaime and Cersei could be so calm about this that they could deceive the Tyrrells being cordial allies to their faces while plotting behind their backs.
In either case, I don't think Cersei would have told Jaime the truth about what Tommen said. Yes, Jaime's being her obedient lackey right now, but she's never trusted her judgement like her own. She wants him to obey her, not argue with her. So I think if she decided to lie about what Tommen told her, she's doing it on her own.
Agreed, especially on Tommen's motivation.
I mean he tells Margaery in Season 5 he doesn't feel guilty at all that he wears Joff's crown and sleeps in Joff's bed and fucks Joff's wife. If he found out that Margaery had killed Joff, I don't know if he'd even care. He knows what kind of monster Joff was, and if Margaery killed him to get out of that marriage would he even blame her? Not to mention that his death gave Tommen everything, he might even be grateful to the Tyrells for offing his big brother. I definitely don't think he'd ever tell Cersei if he found out that Margaery had any part at all in Joff's death, even if he doesn't believe his mother would kill his wife, he wants them to like each other.
I also don't think Cersei would have it in her to stay calm in the face of that kind of revelation. She'd go mad and try to slay all the Tyrells immediately. She'd come into the Small Council meeting with a dagger and try to peel Olenna's face off. Cersei likes to believe she has ice in her veins like Tywin would, really though she's only calm when she's carefully plotting and things go her way, when she's faced with something unexpected, she goes wild. Margaery's pregnant isn't that surprising, she knows that Tommen has been enthusiastically plowing her since the marriage, she had to be expecting it sooner or later. Margaery killed Joffrey is a bombshell, she'd freak.
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5 minutes ago, SeanC said:
That's a myth about the North that ADWD really should have killed stone cold.
First off, this is a show thread. Lots of stuff (especially a lot of the politicking) in ADWD didn't happen in the show.
Secondly, I don't think a lot of that happened before all of the regime changes. the Boltons betrayal made the politicking necessary, there's no indication that it was going on while Ned was Lord of Winterfell.
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44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:
Nah, it was a really sloppy plot move to get the war started by making Ned act like some stupid and naive novice. He's been in wars! He's been in the capitol before, and he was warned several times of treachery there. He's been a ruler in the North for years! Yet, he finds out all this stuff, does he tell the King? No, he lets him and himself get killed, his daughters flung into hell, his oldest son killed, his youngest goes off to live with cannibals, etc. etc. For so-called "honor?" To save a treacherous Queen and her bastard children that are conning his so-called best friend?
THEN, he TELLS the Queen?
I mean really, come on now...no that has lived his life is that stupid. GRRM was really sloppy there. I didn't believe it when I was reading it, and I still don't. If I must believe it so that the story plays out? That makes Ned an idiot who frankly, would have probably died from that long before our story begins.
Being a rular in the North doesn't really help him though. For the most part the Northern lords don't do a lot of politicking. They're too busy trying to stay alive and keep their subjects alive. They sometimes go years without seeing each other. He tells his banners what they need to do, and they do it. He's not used to giving an order and seeing it disobeyed.
Not to say he isn't an idiot. He was definitely warned about the capitol and their backstabbing, but Ned's very much a fish out of water. A wolf out of the woods?
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32 minutes ago, kittykat said:
I mean if we really looked into things there are numerous people to blame for the war. Ned because again...idiot, Cat for seizing Tyrion, Tywin for sending Clegane to ravage the Riverlands, Jaime for pushing Bran out the window sending Stark to KL, Sansa for telling Cersei of Ned's plan to leave KL, Robert for surrounding himself with Lannisters and yes men, Lysa for poisoning Jon Arryn, Littlefinger for pressuring Lysa to said poisoning, Littlefinger for naming Tyrion as the holder of the dagger so Cat would seize him so Tywin would go to war so Ned would react emotionally so Joffrey would sentence Ned to death so Mr. Mockingbird's twu wuv would be single again. I'm sure I'm leaving others out. There is no one person to blame, just a string of very bad decisions by various people.
Really everything stems from Bran spying on Cersei and Jaime.
If Bran doesn't find out their secret, Jaime doesn't push him out the window. If Jaime doesn't push him out the window, likely Ned, Arya and Sansa are accompanied by Bran and possibly Cat and Rickon. With Bran along Arya can play with him and doesn't need to play with Mycah, and Joff wouldn't get nearly as tough with the true born son of Ned as he does with Mycah and he'd play the gentleman, at least until they get to King's Landing. With Bran not hurt, Cat doesn't investigate the dagger or go down the capture Tyrion route. With Cat in the capital Littlefinger is probably a lot less likely to betray Ned. Even if the betrayal does go down and Ned ends up in the black cells, he probably is allowed to take the black because if Joff is not embarrassed at the Ruby Ford, he wouldn't feel any animosity towards Sansa (for witnessing said humiliation) and he would still want her to see him as her gallant Prince.
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Ned's problem is he's used to discussing things openly with his allies, and then deciding on a course of action, and having everyone drop their problems once something is decided and all working together for the ultimate accomplishment of said plan even when some of them got overruled in the decision making process.
QuoteNed: So, there it is. Cersei killed Jon Arryn, and sired 3 bastards off her brother and passed them off as the King's children. Stannis is the rightful king. What do you think we should do?
Littlefinger: Ok, ok. Just spitballing here, how about I get the City Watch on our side, we take everyone by surprise, you capture Joffrey and rule in his stead as Hand and Regent? You even have that decree from Robert which makes it all nice and legal.
Renly: I'm ok with that plan. I'd rather you make me King, but I understand that it's probably better for now to leave the succession in place. Also if Joff were to have a little 'accident' in a year or two once things have calmed down I'm on board with stepping in as his heir.
Littlefinger: Ooo! I like that accident thing. That's a great idea!
Ned: Alright, I like that City Watch stuff, and the capturing but Stannis should be King.
Littlefinger: Heavily disagree. Like I am not going along with this if you do that.
Renly: Ditto also disagree.
Ned: Well I'm the Hand, so.... We're all gonna do what I want right? Right? Let's go Team Ned!
Littlefinger: Not okay with that name.
Renly: Yeah, did not agree to that either.
He expect Littlefinger (and to a certain extent Renly) to go along with his plan because he's the Hand. He's not used to people going off book, which is what everyone in King's Landing would do.
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2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:
But if there's nobody up there, there's literally no need for a wall or for any other sort of defense. You only build a wall when there's something you want to keep out. The wall itself is a testament to the Walkers. It's not there in lieu of a settlement, it's there to protect the settlements south of the wall. I can't think of any other place that has a huge wall protecting itself from the arctic circle.
The Walkers haven't been seen in centuries though. There was literally nothing but the elements (and poorly equipped wildlings) to prevent Westerosi from venturing beyond the wall.
The Wall may have been built to keep out the Walkers, but it was maintained to repel invasion from the North in lieu of establishing a real presence beyond the wall.
The fact is nobody wants to live there, and it was more feasible to maintain the Wall and the Watch then it was to venture North, slaughter all the wildlings (or force their surrender) and establish settlements up there. Aerys II himself wanted to push Northward 100 leagues and build a new wall. The new Wall he built wouldn't have been to keep out the Walkers, it would've been built to protect his realm against invasion.
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32 minutes ago, SeanC said:
From the White Walkers. That's why it's the only border of the realm requiring that kind of defense.
Or it's because the Wall is the Northern most point it is feasible to go.
There's nothing preventing them from establishing castles and ports on the East, West and Southern borders, which are all bounded by the seas, and when Dorne was not part of the Kingdoms the mountains provided a natural barrier. Also then they can establish settlements in between which will prevent enemies from settling there.
The far North however is completely undefended because nobody wants to live there, it's more feasible to build a wall and leave a garrison then it is to establish settlements. The Wall would've been a pretty standard measure even if there weren't magical ice zombies, maybe it wouldn't have been a 700 foot tall wall, but there would probably be some sort of man made barrier constructed to guard against invasion from the North. The Night's Watch is a little more severe, you're guarding against something special if it requires the creation of a monastic warrior order.
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· Edited by Maximum Taco
These Raptors are so baffling, one day they look like they can hang with anybody, the next you're wondering what business they have in the Conference Finals.
One thing they aren't is boring though.
See you back North of the 49th, Cavs. Hopefully the Raptors from Game 3 and 4 show up again when we're back in the 6.