miss-vanilla
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Posts posted by miss-vanilla
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I think Rayna had 8 normal human life spans.
By the time we meet her she is old, and is presumably nearing the end of her second life span, then Enzo kills her.
She died when klaus killed her, and again when the strix killed her on TO. Damon killed her at least 3 times and the fourth time was her last and he needed to resuscitate her to save Stefan. That makes eight I think.
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So let me get this straight. Damon has the intelligence to work out that Valerie was performing the long con in order to net Stefan, but he hadn't worked out that by transferring the mark to himself he would potentially not live until Elena wakes due to Rayna's natural life span? does not make sense since he knows just how killable she is.
Stefan does something to Penny and now she is dead (did he kill her?). In revenge, Matt releases Rayna Cruz, who goes after Stefan, who then wakes up big brother from his slumber for his help, and Damon is blamed for the ensuing carnage- figures.
ML and Nora have been surplus, screen time eating, waste of spaces, and I'm glad they are gone off my screen.
The Stefan/Valerie roadtrip was meh, don't care, and the notion that Rayna could see everything Stefan was doing during that time due to a "mystical connection" was just hilarious- but conveniently she doesn't know what he did to Penny/Matt. (I'll wager it was a misunderstanding and Stefan is not to blame in the end because he was protecting Damon or something)
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I can't name one shitty thing any of them has done that has had lasting consequences. Therein lies the problem. The point I am trying to make is that no one is ever truly held accountable for what they do. Everyone has their bad behaviors excused because otherwise how would we be able to root for these characters? But the only person who is repeatedly told he is bad or wrong is Damon. That is where the narrative falls apart. Why should one brother be the "bad" one when both are equally guilty of killing innocent people?
ITA. This has been the most frustrating thing for me this season especially. We are in S7 now guys, move on.
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He wasn't telling Alaric the truth in the letter he was lying as evidenced by the previous episode. He already said why he choose to dessicate when he told an unconscious Bonnie that he would no longer risk her or Stefan dying for him. He wants her to live out her life without the interference of him or his perceived drama and Stefan the same.
i don't think he was lying to Ric, I think he was telling the truth as he see's it. Damon's actions are cumulative of everything that has happened to him lately and the people around him.
This has got very little to do with impatience for Elena, this is a guy who searched for 60+years for Katherine. Patience is his strong suit. He made the choice he made because he believes it protects them and he lead them to believe it was for other reasons so they wouldn't try to stop him.
Well yes, he is still planning on waiting for Elena, that hasn't changed, neither has his choice to protect Bonnie despite the fact that Damon could have Elena back right now if she died. Damon is determined to ensure that he is still worthy of her when she returns, and right now he thinks that Bonnie will end up dead because of him, and Stefan will stop sacrificing things for him if he is gone.
This is what the show has been hammering into his head all season long and couple that with his deep misery and longing for Elena that hasn't dissipated and voila!
Him waiting for Katherine was a different thing altogether, he was delusional about her, she never loved him and promised him nothing really except an eternal life, he was a different guy back then.
It was sad to hear Damon voice to Ric that he hadn't known what true happiness was until he was with Elena, he is 170 yrs old and had never felt that sense of fulfillment that he got from those few short months he had with her.
Misdirection (of the characters) is also the reason they had Damon walk away when Stefan said "If you ever cared about me." Of course Damon cares about him, up until this season you could unequivocally say more than anybody else on the show but he chose to walk away when Stefan said that to reinforce the "selfish, douchebag Damon" trope so they would let him go ahead with his stupid plan. Damon knows if he told them the truth they would call him crazy and probably talk him out of it. This is Damon doing something he believes is truly unselfish for the first time.ETA Also a guy who would always choose Elena wouldn't have told Bonnie to leave the Armoury (sp?) with the full expectation that Tyler would gobble him up, there's no way to see Elena again when you're dead.
That's not putting Elena first that's putting Bonnie first, even above himself. We all know Elena would get over it if Bonnie had died, she'd get over anyone dying except her precious obsession, Damon.
I think there is some truth in that. He definitely didn't want to be talked out of it, and Damon is always ready to be hated for the choices he makes when he is trying to keep his loved ones alive.
Bonnie made an emotional attempt to sway Damon, but he was having none of it, just like with Stefan. However, I still believe that there was truth in his letter to Ric. He knows that Ric will let him go without a fight, he helped Elena let Damon go once, remember, because he saw first hand how she was destroyed by Damon's death. He understands Damon and what drives him, because he has similar traits.
I think reducing Damons actions regarding saving Bonnie to a simplistic notion that he is choosing Bonnie over Elena is reductive and doesn't take into account the complexity of how Damon feels about those who he views as his friends. This isn't a choice of either/or, but a way to keep both Bonnie and Elena in his life, Damon is a far more layered character than that.
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Also worth noting: substitute Damon for Stefan and Elena for Damon in the first two sentences and you have the plot for TVD S2-S6. Remember his speech to Elena about how he will always choose her and put her first no matter who else has to die in the process?
Yes true, and add in the fact that that Elena was equally as dependent on Damon and voila, we have the triangle of toxic dependency. Everyone assumed Elena was the central point of the triangle, when in fact it was/is Damon. When it came down to it, neither Elena or Stefan could function without him. Contrast that with Stefan who did manage to go on without Elena, and Damon, it would appear could go on without Stefan.
Delena is/was problematic in that regard, but the narrative this season is just unearned, since Damon's actions and reactions wrt Elena are for once understandable and relateable in comparison to say what Ric did for example..But we don't see the corresponding hyperbolic dialogue to balance that, in the same way it is written for Damon.
Like I said above, Caroline did an extreme thing, she chose to turn off her humanity. Every other example of this has been shown to be not the persons actual choice, ie; Klaus forced Stefan to off his humanity,
Damon used the SB to turn off Elena's humanity.
Caroline forced Stefan to turn off his humanity.Consequences = "crickets."
Yet everything Damon does is scrutinized, analysed, judged and consequenced, literally by everyone on the show, even though he chose to keep his humanity on, when a lesser person/vamp would have shut that kind of pain away. Damon gets zero passes in the narrative, he isn't allowed the luxury of flipping the switch, when others are. Damon is held accountable for his actions when others are given a get out of jail free card.
Damon doesn't. Not after Katherine both in 1864 and present day, not after 5 yrs of torture, not after Stefan dies and not now even after losing his "life" (Elena). Damon has only switched off his humanity once, and that was to save his own life, because the "real" Damon could not bring himself to leave his friend to die, and he kept that switch dialed firmly in the "off" position for a very long time.
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This confused me too. I guess you could make the argument that maybe he should have done it sooner, before everyone fucked up their lives for him. But the theme of the season has been that Damon, at least Elena-less Damon, is an albatross who will endlessly cause disasters that the people who love him have to put themselves on the line to clean up. Particularly as to Stefan, the theme is that Damon has always been the problem for him and he'll never live his own life with him alive. Setting aside the fact that this appears to retcon the retcon of Damon always wanting a relationship with Stefan and sacrificing their relationship for Stefan's good (a period that, as much as I enjoy Damon generally, I refer to a 100 years a woobie)* and the fact that the initial mess this season was initiated by Stefan and Caroline, this seems to be the message most the season and hit HARD since the phoenix stone bullshit.
And then in this episode, they framed his decision to remove himself and his destructive tendencies as an abandonment. I found that a bit jarring. Which is it? Is Damon a cross to bear or a necessary brother and best friend?
*Seriously, they redesign the dynamics of the Salvatore brothers to fit whatever arc they want to write in a particular season without regard to what's already been shown. Does Damon want to make Stefan suffer forever? Is he the brother that walked away when Lexi said he needed to let Stefan be better? Did Stefan need his brother? Did he need to be away from him? Ugh... I can't even keep track of the changes.
The whole Defan arc is confusing, and I have been saying for weeks that Stefan's phoenix stone hell was a nonesense. Like Aeryn said, I'm not sure what i'm supposed to feel about Damon and the decision he made, and that is an anomaly for me since I can usually see the trajectory and sense in his motivations.
Damon's actions and feelings regarding Lily made complete sense to me.
Damon shelving his revenge against Lily to help Stefan kill Julian made sense to me.
In fact all Damon's actions leading up to his hell stone experience were totally in character IMO, and since then I have been at a loss.
Stefan's about turn this episode was jarring. Stefan did not sacrifice anything for Damon, he prevented Damon from sacrificing himself and got marked in the process. He did this because he cannot let Damon go, ever, but will persist in beating Damon over the head with that every chance he gets and then wonders why Damon wants to walk away.
As far as I can tell, Stefan's love for Damon is toxic and destructive to himself and Damon, but it is Stefan's problem. Stefan will stop at nothing, and will give up everything for Damon because Damon is who Stefan needs, and it started back in 1864 when he forced Damon to turn. On the surface this appears noble and good, but when those sacrifices are used to beat guilt into the other into submission it becomes problematic.
For example, Stefan told Damon in 7x11 that he was selfish, manipulative and reckless, after telling him that his phoenix stone hell lesson was that he needed to get rid of Damon from his life in order for him to lead a happy one, then proceeded to tell Damon that regardless he was not "giving up on him"
What a crock? Stefan keeps Damon in his life because HE needs him, but not before making sure Damon knows how much Stefan is sacrificing for him first.
Just wow! Elena realised this about Stefan in S3, just as Caroline has now in S7, Stefan will always put Damon first. This is not Damon's fault, it is Stefan's issue.
Just as it is Damon's issue that Elena comes first, and it is Bonnie's issue that she puts Damon first.
However the narrative blames Damon, in the form of Tyler, Val, Enzo, Lily and every other two bit character that thinks they have a front row seat into Damon's psyche, when in reality, he has no control over what lengths others will go to to save him. Much like Elena in previous seasons tbh, but her "bad" decisions were never painted in this light, and she was never called selfish in the narrative.
I love how Tyler gets to make Damon feel like shit, after his terrible decisions resulted in carnage despite his good intentions. Remember the hybrids Tyler, and your Mom? It's a harsh critique, I know, but it's true. Tyler lost everyone he loved because of the decisions he made, yet he gets to lecture Damon?
Caroline turned off her humanity because she couldn't deal with her Mom's death and killed several people, and almost killed Tyler, Matt and Sarah Salvatore, but no problem, it's barely mentioned again and certainly not this season, but Damon isn't allowed to grieve the loss of Elena? because that makes him do terrible things like refuse to forgive his mother several lifetimes of hurt? like wanting to keep Elena's coffin safe? Just back up a second here show, didn't Alaric literally keep his dead wife on ice for months while he sought to raise her from the dead? Didn't he do everything despite the warnings that the stone was evil to get Bonnie to bring Jo back? Did Ric care about the consequences to Jo, himself or Bonnie? NO. Isn't Ric the whole reason this Phoenix stone is in play this season?
I have no problem people calling Damon out on his shit, but when it comes from a place of sheer hypocrisy and plot amnesia, I roll my damn eyes.
I have one positive to say, and that is when Penny questioned Matt's dubious morality when it comes to vampires and Stefan in particular. Matt could not actually articulate why he views Stefan as "better" than Damon or any other vampire. It's complicated is just another word for I'm biased, because Damon killed my sister and Stefan didn't, so it's all relative in terms of how the vamps affect the individual. Matt doesn't give a shit that Stefan killed half of America on his sojourn with Klaus, or that he has killed without remorse "humans" quite recently, because Stefan didn't kill Vikki. (when technically he did end her life for real).
Damon turned Vikki, but back then Damon viewed Vampirism as a better alternative for Vikki than her miserable human existence, and because he was bored, lol, but Damon did not see turning Vikki as a tragedy. If he wanted her dead, he could have ended her life at any time and thought no more about it.
The rest of this episode was just contrived idiocy to get Damon in the coffin. The hunt for the herbs was just boring, and the contrived plot device that Val's siphoning powers were not able to save Stefan was just another eyeroll worthy moment, because Damon needed to fail. Even though Kai could use siphoning powers to remove the magic from vampires, werewolf bites and and the traveler spells when the plot decided it's so. Either these witchy-vamps can siphon magic or they can't, which is it show?
The Bonnie/Damon scene was very well acted, especially by KG, she managed to make a mediocre dialogue look like Shakespeare, even if it was a tad hyperbolic. Damon/Ian just looked shell-shocked which if that is what they were going for it worked. I will say it again, that girl is in love, hence the hyperbolic speech, and what I feared for her character has come to pass. Bonnie has been hurt emotionally by Damon (unintentionally), because when push comes to shove he will choose himself and his relationship with Elena over her. Damon has evolved, and he does genuinely care for others besides Elena, but ultimately he said it all in his letter to Ric. He gave it a shot for Elena, Stefan, Ric and Bonnie, but the cumulative events recently have pushed him into caving in to what his heart desired most, and who the hell can blame him?
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Yes I have to admit to reluctantly enjoying Klaus back on TVD. There is definitely something about JoMo that is captivating.
I enjoyed the TO side of the cross over too, even if it was just to hear Lucien refer to Stefan as a toddler. Hilarious. No but seriously, on balance, To was better than TVD this week by a mile.
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I actually think that of all her male friends, Tyler was the one person who was truly Elena's friend because he had never been romantically linked with her - unlike Matt, for example. Jeremy was her brother, too so that didn't count. So it made me appreciate their friendship more. He also wasn't 'ride and die' for her to the exclusion of reason. He still had his own thing going on, sometimes offscreen, sometimes onscreen. But he always pulled through e.g. the season 3 finale where he saves her from being drained completely by Klaus and 'outs' himself as an un-sired hybrid. I never got the sense that he did it "for love of Elena" as much as he did because "this is my friend and I'm a decent human being." Tyler is probably the single most underrated character on this show, and it's not a surprise, I believe, that his arc which was so powerful in season 2, started going downhill in season 3 when Plec took over the show.
Ok, I can agree with that. My issue with Bamon is how (currently) one-sided it is. Her sacrifices for him are way above and beyond ordinary friendship, and they are completely out of proportion to anything that Damon has done for her. It is completely un-earned and if they really wanted to sell Bonnie's devotion to him based on 4 months in a prison world and her promise to Elena, they've done a poor job. So far, they're having Bonnie behaving with Damon exactly the same way she behaved with the Gilberts, devaluing her own life and safety for their own.
In fact, I would rather they just admitted that Bonnie was in love with him and is now repeating the same behaviour she did with Jeremy (throwing away her life to save his own) because that at least would be consistent with her character.
I agree with this. Everything Bonnie has done for Damon does seem above and beyond what could be deemed reasonable, to the point it does not make sense, hence why I think this whole narrative is completely contrived BS and unearned. Ultimately it is all to prop up Stefans hero storyline whilst ignoring the actual canon that has lead up to this point.
However, having said that, I would not be surprised to learn that the writers are going to go down the route of book Bamon.
Book Bamon was basically a one sided crush from Bonnies' perspective. Bonnie "loved" Damon and did lots for him, but she knew he would always love Elena. Damon figured it out, and in return protected and held a deep affection for Bonnie, but he was never in love with her.
I don't want this for the TV version, because this Bonnie deserves better than that.
I have always liked Tyler, even when he was a cocky douche in S1. He isn't perfect, but he always seemed to have a grounded perspective about things, and yes, he wasn't all about Elena. Remember when he let rip when the gang let Jeremy kill his friend Chris the hybrid to "save Elena" ?(another example of tribal mentality of people sacrificing to save Elena).
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It wasn't the only instant. There are several examples of Stefan willingly let Elena step into danger and death because that his her own choice. Not forcing vampire blood down her throat in season 2 is one. Letting her meet with Esther Michaelson is another. And that's just off the top of my head. It was a group effort when saving Elena coincided (contrived or not) to stop a greater danger e.g. preventing Klaus from Ascending to a hybrid, preventing Klaus from making more hybrids. Whenever the stake was only Elena, it was usually down to the Salvatore brothers and Bonnie. At least for most of pre-S4 before Damon and Delena took over the show.
Kai's feud was not just with Bonnie was what I said. His fixation on her did not stop him from holding Damon as much to blame for his imprisonment as Bonnie because this was actually something that they both did to him. In fact, he'd have likely punished Damon anyway just to spite Bonnie because he knew that Damon was her best friend. And his 'punishment' was what...? Nothing, really. Damon and Bonnie lose nothing in it. Bonnie is arguably better off without Elena in her life than she was before. (Only she's transferred her slavish devotion from Elena to Damon, so that says something about her problematic personality not really about Elena, doesn't it?) Damon is even better off because he is the one who gets to have both women in his life, and even fuck both of them with no stint on his conscience. Elena is the one who got the rough end of the stick in this but no one ever seems to dwell on that. It's always about how Damon has lost the love of his life.
Look, I'm not going to argue everything point by point. But it needs to be said that about the only faction that the writers have consistently written to please are Damon fans. This show went off the rails after it went from Stefan and Elena's story to push Damon into center-stage making everything about him, to the detriment of the other leads. The fact that it happened around the time that Plec and Dries took full control from Williamson - the same women who said that the show would thrive because everyone would tune in to watch Ian Somerhalder read a book for 40 minutes... says everything.
If anything, that Damon is being hated at all by any of the viewers is quite refreshing. He raped Caroline, raped Andi, killed Elena's brother in front of her, bullied and tortured Bonnie, repeatedly betrayed his own brother, and (this is really what tips the scale) consistently suffers from Karma Houdini where he's always saved from the consequences of his actions. If Damon were: a woman, a POC, or someone less than genetically advantaged, this won't even be debated. But Damon is played by a hot, white man, played by arguably the best looking guy in the cast. (Arguably, so nobody jump on me). Which means that the audience is pre-programmed to handwave, excuse, rationalize most of his bad behaviour.
That people can actually look past this and ... hate a character for doing hateful things and getting zero consequences for it ... is a step in the right direction.
Taken to the Damon thread.
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Doram said:
It wasn't the only instant. There are several examples of Stefan willingly let Elena step into danger and death because that his her own choice. Not forcing vampire blood down her throat in season 2 is one. Letting her meet with Esther Michaelson is another. And that's just off the top of my head. It was a group effort when saving Elena coincided (contrived or not) to stop a greater danger e.g. preventing Klaus from Ascending to a hybrid, preventing Klaus from making more hybrids. Whenever the stake was only Elena, it was usually down to the Salvatore brothers and Bonnie. At least for most of pre-S4 before Damon and Delena took over the show.
Kai's feud was not just with Bonnie was what I said. His fixation on her did not stop him from holding Damon as much to blame for his imprisonment as Bonnie because this was actually something that they both did to him. In fact, he'd have likely punished Damon anyway just to spite Bonnie because he knew that Damon was her best friend. And his 'punishment' was what...? Nothing, really. Damon and Bonnie lose nothing in it. Bonnie is arguably better off without Elena in her life than she was before. (Only she's transferred her slavish devotion from Elena to Damon, so that says something about her problematic personality not really about Elena, doesn't it?) Damon is even better off because he is the one who gets to have both women in his life, and even fuck both of them with no stint on his conscience. Elena is the one who got the rough end of the stick in this but no one ever seems to dwell on that. It's always about how Damon has lost the love of his life.
Look, I'm not going to argue everything point by point. But it needs to be said that about the only faction that the writers have consistently written to please are Damon fans. This show went off the rails after it went from Stefan and Elena's story to push Damon into center-stage making everything about him, to the detriment of the other leads. The fact that it happened around the time that Plec and Dries took full control from Williamson - the same women who said that the show would thrive because everyone would tune in to watch Ian Somerhalder read a book for 40 minutes... says everything.You are right, Stefan did let Elena make her own choices, even when it would mean she would die. Unfortunately some of those choices led to others making sacrifices (even if they were unintentional) because of Elenas' choices. For example, she chose to die in a sacrifice, and Stefan let her, and Jenna paid the price. If not Jenna, it would have been both Tyler and Caroline.
Her choice (that Stefan facilitated) to meet Esther backfired spectacularly and resulted in Abbys' death (vampirism), and hurt Bonnie. The point that was being made is that sacrifices have been made across the board by ALL of them in some shape or form, and the consequences to those sacrifices are often unforseen. This is not limited to Damon by any stretch of the imagination and neither is the lack of consequences as you put it.
I have yet to see what consequences befell Stefan for any of his ripper sojourns past and present? Ok he lost the "girl", but he did that to himself after he returned from his time with Klaus. Elena was willing to take him back and actually did in the end so I'm still not seeing exactly how Stefan lost everything because of Damon.
The same applies right now. Yes Stefan is on the run from a huntress because he stepped in to save Damon, but actually, Damon did the exact same thing for Stefan only a handful of episodes ago and got sucked into that phoenix stone.
It's about cause and effect, but the show is only acknowledging one side of the story in the narrative.
On the surface, It appears that this is all about Damon, when in reality, this is about Stefan and his journey, and i hate to say it, but Damon is a plot device to tell that story, and it shows. You clearly have a passion in your hatred of Damon, which almost matches mine of Stefan, however I do think you are wrong about the writers preferences. JP is an unabashed fan of Stefan and Stelena and has stated her preference many times. CD has indicated a preference for DE but her fave is Klaroline and her fave character to write for was Katherine.
JPs comment about IS was flippant and reductive. I have no doubt that some would tune in to watch Damon read the phone book or whatever she said, but her rapidly disappearing audience is proving her wrong. This show has no shortage of pretty male or female characters, it's the CW after all, and after 7 seasons I would wager that looks factor much less than JP realizes.
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Always nice to see Tyler, MT is so fantastic, they have wasted him so on this show, but I do agree with what Tyler said about Damon. Maybe not in the context of this season but think about all 7 seasons what both Bonnie and Stefan have given up for Damon (and his Elena obsession) it had to be said IMO.
I would agree with you if we hadn't already seen it be said to Damon ad nauseum over the course of 7 seasons. Damon has had his issues and problematic behaviour, and throughout the seasons we have had a running commentary off every Tom, Dick and Harry that passes through MF give their opinion and critique of Damon like they are experts on his psyche. They have told this same story over and over, but suddenly they feel the need to tell it again, whilst ignoring their own canon. When they are out of ideas and drama, they assassinate Damons' character to provide it, and usually drag whoever he is closest to down with him, and this time it's Bonnie. I was all for team Bamon at the start of this season, I thought they were going to go somewhere good with them, like save the town from the Heretics together. I wanted to see Damon continue to grow from the person he was in S6, the person who was Liz' friend, Alarics bud, and Bonnies' newest ally and friend. The image of him on the clock tower promised so much and delivered nothing. Instead he has been stripped of all that and reduced to a sub par version of S1 Damon who was a least smart and resourceful.
I don't recognise this Damon. He shines through at times, but I believe that is more to do with Ian than the writing.
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And Klaus berating Stefan for being so careless as to make an enemy out of her. Seriously, Klaus? Your family spend the last 1000 years making enemies out of basically everyone. Yet somehow they missed her because she is so fearsome or what? The build-up for Rayna does not match what I see. Klaus easily batted her away. Back when Esther made Evil Vampilaric, three vampires, including Klaus couldn`t hold his own in a fight against him. THAT would have warranted such a level of fear and awe.
Also, I do not understand why they are suddenly hammering home so much that Stefan will always sacrifice for Damon. Back in the 1950s Damon went missing for 5 years and Stefan didn`t even know. Only recently have they rebuild their relationship which is in showtime what 3 years? 4 maybe? And in that time Stefan has come to Damon`s aid and sacrificed for him and sometimes Damon has come to Stefan`s aid. This is hardly Klaus/Elijah scenario. This is just weirldy painting Stefan as some Stockholm-syndromed-saint and it devalues his lovely speech from the Season 6 Finale.
The writing is so clumsy and I don`t understand what they are going for.
You and me both which is why i can't get onboard with this storyline. The phoenix stone hell storylines make no sense, and this "Damon is so bad" narrative that has been ramped up subsequently, just feels unearned to me as does Tylers speech in this episode.
After all, Tyler is only alive because of Damon and Bonnie, as is Stefan and Alaric. Damon risking his life for Stefan has had equally as dire consequences for Damon, as Stefans for Damon. He was trapped in a PW for months, and Elena thought Damon had died, then he gets stuck in the Phoenix stone because he was trying to save Stefan from Julian.
Basically,Stefans Phoenix stone hell was a whole lot of contrived nonsense and really disappointing.
Rayna is equally disappointing so far. I'm hoping she lives up to her reputation soon, and she can start anytime she wants with Nora and ML.
I'm willing to give the Armory story a chance, but so far I'm not that impressed.
Is Bonnie in love with Damon? She is sure acting like it. That girl is going over and beyond what can reasonably expected from a friend, even if they are BFFs.
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When Caroline was in the operating room, why was there activity on her EKG? Unless I'm remembering this wrong, I thought Stefan explained many seasons ago that booze and caffeine help vampires from being cold to the touch due to their lack of a beating heart and, thus, no bloodflow. Also, besides Damon, do any of these vampires consume blood anymore? Every time we see them they are eating and drinking regular food.
Apparently In TVD vamp lore, a vamp body functions exactly like humans as long as they drink human blood, so they do have functioning organs.
The obsession with eating "real" food has become a joke now. It began in earnest last season with the pancakes and hasn't let up. They make the occasional passing reference to them drinking blood.
I don't think we have seen Damon vamp out for two whole seasons now, unless you count the poor chap Damon killed in the car last week, but it was so quick, if you blinked, you missed it. It's so bad now, that I forget that they are in fact vampires. I miss them.
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This Phoenix stone and huntress story just makes less and less sense.
Nora " Shes ruthless, she won't stop, she'll kill every vampire in her path""
A ruthless vampire hunter that doesn't kill two vampires that were right in front of her, because she has to prioritise the marked ones. Really show? lame.
The scene where Rayna confronts Bonnie and Damon with a stake gun was just stupid. Rayna shoots Bonnie, to force him to hand the weapon over? Wouldn't staking Damon achieve the exact same thing, kind of like a 2 for one deal.
How about this Rayna, don't threaten to shoot Bonnie in the head, just shoot Damon instead- see fixed it for ya!
Kill Damon (vampire)= get back scary plot device sword. Why the use a middle man (woman ?). I know, because we needed to get the Bamon scene in and the call back to that crap 3 second speech thing. We get it show, they are BEST friends now.
Why does Rayna put vampires in the stone in the first place? Why doesn't she just outright stake them? Is her purpose to punish vamps or kill them? Why is it selective? why were Nora and ML terrified of her, they don't have the 'mark'?
Why did she stab Beau in the throat, and not his heart, she could have easily? Why risk putting them in the stone if it's possible to for them to get out?
Why is Rayna immune to magic? yet her stone is magical?
Damon hallucinations have stopped because he was 'liberated' by burning Elenas' body, and Stefans' have stopped because, why? he hadn't liberated himself from Damon. Has Stefan learned his lessons from the phoenix stone? No, he gets a pass and gets to don his hero hair again.
@ElectricBoogaloo. Yes, we all guessed that Tyler had planted a decoy coffin, it was obviously a huge plot point to get Damon from point A to point B. Such a shame the fans are bored of that same storyline replayed and recycled for the sake of drama, Anyhow, Enzo said it was an empty coffin, so therefore what Damon saw was a hallucination of first Henry, then Elena. Tyler had planned ahead for the eventuality that Damon would demand to see her at some point and took measures to guard against a disappointed Damon when he found an empty coffin- he stashed a weapon.
Unfortunately, he underestimated Damons' speed and strength, and was overpowered easily, because the writers said so.
LMAO at the girl dancing around half naked. I mean, I would so do that after spending the night having mind blowing sex with Damon Salvatore, she is a lucky girl.
However, i had to laugh at just how hard they worked to make the point DAMON DID ACTUALLY HAVE SEX WITH THIS GIRL. In case you missed it, Bonnie drove the point home with a shirtless Damon thrown in for good measure, and remember, it's Krystal with a 'K'.
So, are they really going to dismantle DE? good luck with that writers, because throwing a shirtless IS around is not going to cut it with the DE fans that are left.
I am a huge Damon fan, but despite opinion, I will not just tune in to watch IS parade around shirtless or read a phonebook, despite how pretty he may look doing it. I can log on to tumblr and ogle anytime I want, but I actually do care about his character, and we are in S7 now so all this just feels redundant. lame and can I say boring?
Defan is also boring, because it is so predictable. I can see what is going to happen in the finale. Damon is screwing up, Stefan will keep saving him and saving him until Damon dessicates himself to protect him. He is woken by Stefan, Damon owes Stefan so of course he will do everything he can to help and protect Stefan from the huntress. Damon will finally earn redemption by dying for real in the finale saving Stefan, just as Elena awakens. Ta da!
So the babies are finally here. Good. That was such a painfully drawn out, non-tension filled birth (since we know both Caroline and the girls are alive in 3 yrs time). I do admit to feeling a little moved when Alaric held his daughter though, aww! and he named one of them Elizabeth, too cute. Yeah, but honestly I'm glad that story is told now and we can move on from vampire Caroline is pregnant crap. Perhaps she might become awesome again, we will see.
Poor Beau. I had high hopes for him, but yeah. His character was ultimately pointless, and his muteness was irrelevant. Such a damn shame because that character had a sense of mystery that had so much potential, but we get to keep Mary Louise instead, yay! (sarcasm)
Dare I hope for a decent story for Enzo? after being disappointed by the Beau story, I doubt it, but I am intrigued to find out exactly what he has been up to since he has been gone. Plus I still have hopes for a proper Denzo story line. I'm obvioulsy in denial, Bamon is the only friendship Damon is allowed to have don'tcha know! Even Dalaric has been sidelined to make it work.
Overall, I think this season has devolved into S5 territory. Too much emphasis on nonsensical plot driven storylines and too many plotholes and WHY'S'. S6 had some problems of course, but overall it was mainly character driven, and felt more cohesive IMO of course.
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No, don't take it personally. I'm more reflecting on what the show seems to be saying about the heretics and none of it makes sense/ or is done so badly that I can't buy what they're selling. The show's telegraphing to me that I'm supposed to dislike Mary Louise more than Nora and Valerie and frankly, I can't seem to find any objective reason to think so besides the "yeah, that's what the viewer should feel". Pretty much the same way the show repeatedly has their "good guys" behave in the same heinous manner as the "bad guys" but somehow we're supposed to be on the good guys' side. Like Matt was spilling some home truths to Bonnie about Nora and he was spot on in saying that it was wrong and dangerous for Bonnie to invite her - but it's Matt that's made out to be the over-reacting person there. Similarly, Valerie's self-confessed murder of Oscar is hardly given a batted eyelash in the whole matter - even though on a purely relative scale, the other heretic siblings should have been more horrified about that than the alleged forced abortion of her unborn child.
Anyway... like I said already, not to rub too fine a point in it. The show's logic has always been badly done so I'm not surprised that it's botched this as well.
Fundamentally I agree with this assessment. This show is great at trying to make us root for certain characters whilst showing us that actually, they are just as much of an ass as everyone else, which was my entire problem with how this show writes Stefan, and continues to write him, hence all the huge fan debates over the years.
This show writes ALL of it's mains as villains, whilst in the same breath promotes them as the HEROES. They are not. I can live with that premise and still enjoy the show, but I hate the preachy moralistic vibe they try and impose on the story. It's laughable actually, since the moral code is not all that consistent, hence your examples.
I hated Julian, but objectively he is no worse that the Salvatores if we really think about it, but the show is about the Salvatores. We know more about them and naturally root for them both or choose a brother we prefer more, but again, objectively, neither one is better than the other, but this whole narrative is trying to convince the audience otherwise.
Sorry, I didn't buy it back in the day, and I still don't buy it now, no matter how they try and retcon the past.
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It's hard to comment on whether on not these last few episodes are good or not, since i'm not convinced everything we are seeing is "REAL".
If it is all real, then I would have to say that these episodes were in fact awful and so badly written that I'm not sure that I will continue to watch, or it's not real, and this is all some clever twist with the phoenix stone mythology and I will think theses writers are awesome again.
Stefan IMO, continues to miss the point with his brother. Some of his dialogue to Damon has been outrageous considering the circumstances, and I'm not sure everything we are seeing with him and his interactions with Damon are real, as in the stone is still messing with him. Caroline made the point while writing in her diary, that Stefan is bouncing back from his experience in the stone. WHY? HOW? are we sure? hasn't the stone been trying get Stefan to the point where he will let Damon go for good? He still hasn't done that yet, he chose to blame Julian for all this misery, and rightly so, but he still excuses Damons' actions and more importantly his own in the events leading up to this point in the story. Stefans reckless revenge mission against Julian is what got both boys caught in the stone, he has wanted Julian dead for most of the season, so this revelation that he wanted Julian dead this time around is not new, but the motive was. This time it was about Damon.
The writers made a big show of promoting Damons' hell, even centering a whole episode around it, but they were so much more secretive about exactly how Stefans' hell would play out, only telling us that Stefans' hellscape would be played out rather differently on screen. I think this is it.
I hope so, because it would explain so many things in my mind.
For instance, anyone else think that it is weird that none of the main cast other than Tyler has interacted with Damon since he was released from the stone?
And now Tyler is MIA? we know he isn't dead, so where is he? was he even real?
Moving on, I like that Julian is now dead, and I don't even care that Stefan "cheated" to kill him, yay for Stefan. Somebody has woken PW up, since his acting has been way better lately, and I enjoyed his performance in the last two episodes.
Ian gets loads of attention for his looks, always has, but I sometimes think his acting gets overlooked because of that, and because his character is snarky etc, but IS has shown he has some great range.
Nora and Bonnie were great, I loved their easy bitchy banter, the other one can just leave. I don't care.
The huntress Rayna has finally arrived in a baptism of fire, I guess that why her stone is named the Phoenix stone. I'm still not 100% sure what the point of the stone is yet for the those who are unfortunate enough to get trapped in it.
Great to see Enzo again. I can't help it, I love him.
Caroline and the Gemini siphoning baby twins story is just dragging the whole show down for me in a great big pile of suck, and dragging Alaric down with it. I can't wait for it to be just done with.
The least said about Matt these days the better.
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For me it comes down the writing for Lily.
They wrote her as an awful mother, who not only faked her death and abandoned her Sons, but then went on and rubbed salt in that wound by replacing them with a new family in her heart. Damon and Stefan both did things to incur her wrath after that when they tried to take the heretics out, BUT, the "vase" story did nothing to create any viewership warmth to her character since she implied that she was aware of Guiseppe's harsh punishments for small misdemeanors, and was happy to to enhance such discipline by adding psychological punishment. On the surface, given the situation, one could argue that Damon had it coming since he killed Malcolm, but in retrospect, we learn that Lily was an accomplice in the demise of Elena, a truth she hid from Damon while spouting all the sanctimonious, righteous BS she did. Just ughh!
Lily was nothing short of a hypocritical bitch, the writers wrote that story, and they hurriedly tried to turn that perception around in like 1 episode, and I'm not buying that she earned that kind of forgiveness that warranted not just a whole episode devoted to bringing Damon to his knees to validate her, but a whole series worth of Damon issues with his mothers' death, nope.
Introducing Lily in 6x16/17 definitely added more layers and complexity to Damon's feelings about his mother going forwards, but to imply the root of Damon's personality and character as we know him from s1-s6.5 was shaped by what he thought was his mothers "normal human death" feels like simplifying his character back inS1 etc, rather than adding new dimensions. After all, most "humans" will have to face losing parents, and back in 1858, the death of a parent, even at a young age was fairly common place.
I guess what I'm trying to say very incoherently, is that I buy that Damon has "mommy issues" right now, given what he learned about her since he found out his perceived reality was a huge lie, because all that MUST be quite a shock, BUT, I don't buy that Damon's whole life including his vampire issues are all somewhat tied to his "mommy issues". For me that is a massive retcon.
I have watched this one 4 times now, and each time I watch it I become more annoyed, and confused!!!
Perhaps the lack of comments is an indication that I'm not the only one?
It's hard to comment when the the premise is confusing and nonsensical, but looking at the wider media, it would seem this episode was received very well across the varying factions of the fandom, and as we all know, people are more likely to comment when they are unhappy with something, rather then when they are satisfied.
Anyway, who the hell really knows, I sure as hell don't.
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I don't think Damon needs to forgive Lily, and I don't think he did. I do think he admitted he loves/needs/misses her, though.
The Phoenix Stone is a torture device, so I think it kept throwing Lily at him as long as he wanted to avoid her, and then expelled him when he wanted to be near her. Getting expelled from the Stone (or at least not resetting to the same moment in 1863) doesn't mean that his torture is over yet, though.
I think the problem that Damon is facing with his family is that now he knows that he wants to include Lily in it. That's what the Stone has taught him so far. So now he has to get himself, Stefan, *and* Lily home safe -- which means that now, he's facing the same issue with his family as he was with the farmhouse problem (and that the riddle deals with). How can he get *all* three of them home safe?
Within the Stone, he kept trying to get to Stefan and finding just Lily. Then, in the end, he got to Stefan -- but lost Lily in the process (of getting out of the Stone). To try and trigger a reset, and get back to Lily, he ended up killing/losing Stefan, too. So he's still stuck in the same old conundrum as he was at the farmhouse. Each way he tries doing things, he can get maybe one person home safe -- but not all three of them.
I'm not sure how Damon is going to figure out the answer to that riddle, so I'm not sure yet what lesson he's going to learn from the solution, though.
Again, another insightful analysis, thank you.
Your theories are very plausible and relatable to what we have seen so far.
Lets see if the show plays out the way you have described.
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@rue721.
Very interesting and thought provoking analysis. While I get what you are saying, I still don't understand how this "lesson" Damon needs to learn, is related to his inability to forgive his mother?
There was a line from Stefan, something about needing to face the kind of pain that breaks you in order to be released from the stone.
Are the writers trying to suggest that Damon has been circumventing his pain as a human and a vampire?
Because he can't/won't embrace the pain, he can't forgive?
Although I enjoyed the episode for it's entertainment value, on closer inspection it doesn't really make much sense to me yet.
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My least favorite part was the expected resolution of Damon admitting that he just wanted his mommy. I was totally fine with him being mad at her for leaving him and Stefan with their asshole father, never coming back for them, choosing her heretic family over him and Stefan, telling him that he was a reminder of her terrible marriage, and denying him as her son. Lily was a terrible mother over and over. I actually found Stefan to be a dumbass for eventually reconciling with her. Yes, Damon has demonstrated repeatedly that he knows how to hold a grudge but at least his resentment of Lily made sense. She abandoned him and had no regret about it until one or two episodes before she died.
I hated Stefan's explanation about why they couldn't pull Damon out of the stone yet. So because Stefan gave in to the most painful pain that ever pained right away, Bonnie was able to pop him out right away. But because Damon was avoiding pain (as most rational people do), Bonnie couldn't get him out. Oookay.
Couldn't agree more. I found the link between the tragic civil war massacre and his refusal to forgive Lily tenuous at best, at completely nonsensical at worst.
Damon actually articulated his reasons for hating her very well again, and again I thought his reasons were completely rational and plausible.
I never doubted that Damon loved his Mother with all his heart, it was obvious. Her repeated betrayals hurt him beyond measure because he loved her so much, and betrayals by the people you love most are the hardest to forgive IMO.
I understand what they were going for in this, that Damon had to let go of his hate and forgive his mother because carrying those negative emotions around in his heart was tearing apart everything good about Damon that had come to the surface over the last few years, and it was destroying him, but, I still can't help but feeling it was a convoluted,contrived bit of storytelling to get to make that point.
Stefan and his acceptance of his pain was just typical of how badly he is written, and how they frame his actions throughout the series. I do wonder if they will ever show us exactly what pain or lesson he had to learn before he could be released from the stone?
Again, I didn't like the completely contrived logic of hallucination Stefan deducing that Damons drive to get home was because he missed his Mom (who was dead), rather than see his brother. How? It doesn't make any sense since the catalyst was the damned letter, but of course Stefan needs to remain blameless in all this.
Aside from the above, I enjoyed the episode more than any other this season. I always wanted to see more of human Damon and his experience of the civil war, and we got that, and we got see that some of vamp Damons characteristics were present as a human, especially when groundhog day really started to ramp up, he was cocky, funny and so done!
I'm assuming the end scenes were real, but Damon thinks they are not?
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In season 4, when they wanted to use the Cure on Klaus, they believed that turning an Original human broke the sire line.
Ahh Yes, I remember Tyler believed that when he was taunting Klaus when he was trapped in the Gilbert living room, but Mama Original believed she could kill ALL vampires in S3 when she linked all her children to turn them human, so I'm not sure.
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I think the traveler Marcos also showed us that werewolves are magic when he pushed Tyler over the magic MF boundary. All the magic drained out of him until he was just human with the werewolf gene, and dead lol.
So, in theory the heretics could kill Klaus and any of the Originals without the white oak stake.
So, can anyone remember who sired the Heretics? was it Lily or Julian?
I wonder which original sire line the Heretics belong too.
Are the Originals still linked to their sire lines? I haven't watched S3 of TO so I don't know if Davina was successful or not with her spell to unlink them.
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So both brothers ended up in the stone. I knew one of them would, and I kept changing my mind about which one it would be so I was sucker punched when Nora pushed that sword into Stefan as well. Well done TVD, you got me there.
This also sets the stage for the women to take the lead in rescuing the men, since Enzo is also incapacitated by Matt and crew, I will look forward to that.
What I'm not looking forward to is seeing the boys suffer in that dreaded stone, it looks awful.
Did Stefan not get the memo yet? You are not Damon, you suck at revenge, and you suck at plans. Just stop, And while we are at it, stop trying to guilt shame Damon into forgiving his mother, just because you have. ugh!
Caroline was just awful for most of this ep, but I admit to feeling a bit weepy during her graveside chat with her Mom. It's the most normal reaction I have seen from her during this whole BS baby drama.
Bonnie and Nora- this is so going to be a thing. Told ya !
Where the hell is Enzo, Matt etc?
The heretic love drama is still boring, and takes up way to much screen time. They are only interesting when paired with one of the original cast.
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You are a star @ElectricBoogaloo.
It's pretty cool to see some of the best lines in text, it's a good reminder of just how good the dialogue can be on this show.
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S07.E16: Days Of Future Past
in The Vampire Diaries [V]
Agreed. I will join you in your 2 old to be a fangirl, because I'm definitely too old be one.