Dizzy76

I just ran into Five Days Forward a couple of days ago (by accident) and loved it! I couldn't believe that after I was finished, I wanted another story that focused on Gwen and Ianto and how their relationship changed due to her time jump. I really like fic that takes Gwen's character and grows her in an organic way while addressing issues that show writers created but ignored with her.

Yes, I think this is a very wise approach and I am telling myself to view all this in the same way.

I just read about this! No clue what to expect as far as quality or timeline within canon. I am sad that it is most likely set pre-COE but I guess that's to be expected. Still, I am still excited to see that there will be more Ianto.

I loved watching Burn in Pacific Rim!

This. I have no hope in seeing (or hearing) the original Torchwood team in any future canon projects.

Absolutely. And I am eternally grateful for his effort. Yeah, I think we all can agree that GDL should take most (if not all) of the credit for giving us the Ianto we got. And I second Captanne's eternal gratefulness for GDL's efforts and dedication. Yeah, I get what you are saying, Swansong. It really would have been nice but when it came to Ianto and Tosh (and even Owen) they didn't seem to care with giving us the same kind of character info/background stuff that they gave us for Gwen and Jack. I mean, even episodes that were centered around Owen or Tosh didn't tell us much more about their life. I guess you can count the things you could assume from seeing their living spaces but just like with Ianto, they waited until Fragments to really tell us anything about who they were before Torchwood and how that shapes who they are now. Well, unless you count the boardroom scene where we learn that Owen's relationship with his mom was crappy. Actually, excluding Fragments, I think Cyberwoman was the only non-Gwen/Jack character episode that actually told us something substantial about the team member's life. Guest characters got that kind of episode construction but unless I am forgetting an episode (which is possible) that's pretty much it.

It's great to come back and see an active discussion. I've missed it. Reading and trying to catch up and I think I land more with Itsmeyousee on how the episode was rewritten when Ianto replaced Gwen. I remember reading that since Eve had a scheduling issue and everyone decided that zombie!Owen would work better than zombie!Ianto, Gareth was given Eve's part for this episode. Like everyone else I can't remember where I read about it either. Nevertheless. I agree that there had to have been some rewrites going on instead of just a lazy switch and drop-in. This right here is why. Especially the bolded part. A normal Gwen episode would definitely have had yelling and demanding Jack to "do something." I know a lot of people who like Gwen would not see her the way you've described her Itsmeyousee, but for me, this is spot on.

Wow, this is all very interesting! It would have been great to see some of this played out on screen but I still find it nice that this books seems to work the way I think all the extra content/canon should work. Something that can slot into the show without conflicting timelines (though I guess it conflicts with other extra stuff), give some additional info that enhances what you already saw on the show, and occasionally give special clues about what you could possibly see or hear about in future episodes. It sounds like this book may be the best example of how the novels would work within those parameters. I know there are some fans who don't count anything outside of a show's aired episodes as canon. I am not one of those people. Confession time: I am a special/extra features whore and 9 times out of 10, a DVD with bonus content becomes my favorite reason for buying the DVD. I love watching something (be it movie or TV show) and then finding out that it's website has interactive things for me to further immerse myself into its universe. I gobble up any deleted scene and if the only reason why it was deleted was because of time or because it messed up the flow of the show, I have no problem adding that deleted scene into canon. I think what TPTB did with extra content for Torchwood was a wonderful idea in concept. Not only could the novels bring them extra money but along with the radio plays, audio books, and web content, it could have been a great way to keep fans hooked and interested during show breaks. And someone like me, who love extra things, would have gobbled up any opportunity to learn more about my favorite characters and play web games that helped me feel like I was apart of the story somehow. Extra content could have been a way to get more in depth with character background or simply tell the stories they didn't have the time or budget to tell on the actual show. Sadly, the concept was much much better than the execution. For all the reasons that we've discussed throughout our conversations, TPTB failed to enhance with their extras because there was too much contradiction. As I say over an over like a broken record, if RTD had seen the importance of making sure that all writers and creators were on the same page and following a show bible, Torchwood as a whole would have greatly benefited. I mean, can you imagine what kind of show/universe we would be talking about if everything that was churned out was delivered with purpose and continuity and care? I think I'm going to actually get Trace Memory and read it. Thank you, Itsmeyousee for sharing about the book.

I really want to believe that Phil is just towing the party line. It would make sense that he wouldn't want to say anything against anyone else involved in creating the final package of the episode during an official event. And really, it's the only thing that makes sense in my head for why what he said he wrote wasn't displayed on screen. I mean, if Gwen is firmly choosing Rhys, no looking back, then after saying her vows we shouldn't have had the Gwack moment during the dance. At least not from her end. It makes me believe a bit more what I read from that unverified source. Maybe it is mostly the director's fault that their dancing turned into a moment in which they forget everyone else - even when someone is standing right next to them clearing his throat. I'm imagining what that moment could have been like. I think I would have really like it. It would have been sweet.

Found it! I found the video with Phil Ford (the writer) talking about the episode. Watching it now and I'm laughing because his reasons for why people may not like the episode are so off base, lol! And I remembered correctly what we were suppose to get from the episode. Gwen loves Rhys and Rhys is Gwen's hero. Oh, boy. ETA: Not that this has much to do with anything but I just found out the Phil wrote The Dead Line. I didn't know that.

This entire episode just makes me shake my head. I remember reading stuff about what the episode was suppose to be about and then hearing the writer talk about everything (from something one of you guys posted at the other forum...can't remember who it was) and thinking that this episode is a perfect example of how much of a disconnect the writers seem to have with what they think they are showing/telling us and what we actually see. If I remember correctly, the writer intended for this episode to be fun and funny and the ultimate depiction of how Gwen was choosing a life with Rhys despite Torchwood. That against all odds, she was going to grab a hold of this piece of love and normality. And you know, if I had seen an episode that had actually shown that, I would have liked it - at least during the first watch. But Not only was Gwen just downright selfish in her determination to get married against all odds, but she pretty much undermined it all when she thought that Jack was actually declaring himself to her. How is that Gwen choosing Rhys? I know there are other Torchwood moments that were mishandled in the same way but nothing from S1 or S2 is on the same level for me. I think it's because I haven't seen so many fans hate on an entire Torchwood episode the way they hate on Something Borrowed. In fact, I can't think of a single mishandled scene that gets talked about in the same way that the dance scene gets talked about, lol. Yeah, this episode just seems to be the perfect storm of intent not equaling the end product. Speaking of the dance moment...I hate it with a passion. I don't find myself rewatching the episode but sometimes I do play a couple of scenes. I always skip over the dance. And now that I have said that, you might find it hard to believe that I don't really have a problem with Jack's answer about what he will be doing while Gwen is gone. During my first episode watch, I thought it was suppose to be Jack being Jack and trying to make a stupid joke out of things in order to avoid giving a serious answer. However, I never thought he was making a joke at Ianto's expense. It just didn't come across that way. I actually watched that episode with my husband and neither of us thought anything of it. It wasn't until I was trolling old forums reading other people's reactions that Jack and Gwen making Ianto the butt of a joke entered my mind. No, my problem comes after that part. I don't know if moments like the dance scene were originally written in the script that way or if the director is responsibly for what we saw but I did read that the Jack/Ianto dancing was suppose to be about Ianto taking the first steps to publicly acknowledging them which causes a change/shift in the relationship. I also read somewhere that the writer was upset about how that part played out due to way the director changed things. This last bit I read from an unverified source so who really knows. But it doesn't really matter because regardless of who is actually to blame, the entire episode failed (for all the reasons you guys have stated) in delivering what we were suppose to see/take away from it. And that can't be placed solely on the director's shoulders. Somehow, the writer failed on a fundamental level.

Thanks, Itsmeyousee, for breaking the books down like that. I know the most about Trace Memory because it has the section where Ianto is watching Bond and Jack is still trying to come up with some acceptable pet name for Ianto and finally calls him Tiger Pants. For some reason calling Ianto Tiger Pants just tickles me. Anyway, no clue how it ends but I did know a bit about Jack going back for Michael. Almost Perfect seems like a weird book. I wounder if it could be considered an alternate universe type of novel. But for some reason I thought there was a part in the book where Jack is telling Gwen that Ianto kisses him to prove that he's him (instead of some strange girl that he now looks like) and Jack thinking that was romantic. I could be confusing this with some random fanfic that I came across. I read a lot of comments on The House That Jack Built and the conversation between Ianto and Gwen. Was this a S2 or even post S2 (but before COE) book? If so, I find it weird that they would show Jack as being concerned and completely with Ianto while Ianto still thinks he's just in it for the shagging. Before COE, it actually seemed like Ianto was a bit more sure of things. Maybe not sure of what to call what he had but sure enough to know it was more than just sex. And I thought I remembered that there was a book that came out before this one that had Jack and Ianto going on a date at a fair or something? Or at least it was talked about that they had a date at a fair/carnival?? If this is true that Ianto thinking Jack just wants sex from him seems kind of backwards. Well a lot of people are drawn to a certain type of person or are attracted to people who hold certain physical traits so I'm not as bothered by the possibility that Ianto is Jack's type. I do think that's much better than Ianto is just the guy Jack has settled for. But as you've pointed out Itsmeyousee, Jack actually having a type goes against Jack being attracted to everyone/every type. Not having read the books my only (invaluable) guess is that it's lazy writing contributing to people just knowing that Jack is with Ianto. Maybe it's suppose to be obvious by how they are standing together or something? Maybe it's the way Jack looks at Ianto (or vise versa). I have no real clue of course.

Thinking about the books gives me a headache. I know a bit about some of the books from reading other people's comments and takes on them. From everything I read, it really does sound like the Gwen/Jack/Ianto dynamics depended on the author and their personal opinions and not on what was actually going on in the show. I know for a fact that one of the guys who wrote a couple of books really thought that Jack was just settling with Ianto because he really was in love with Gwen. So you know, it weren't just fans that saw things a bit differently than what was actually played out on the show. I still find it interesting however that even though the Jack/Ianto relationship was all over the place, you guys are still having a hard time coming up with an instance where Jack did more than just flirt with (or dream about) someone else.

Well, I'm glad it's not just me who doesn't get the logic behind all that. In theory, I don't either. It's why I can read fanfiction (well written of course) where that happens. But when having a serious discussion about what actually went down on the show, I'm going to go off what I actually saw on the show and what was given in extra content. For those of you who read the books, were there anything in those? Maybe there's stuff there? And you are right, Swansong, Ianto wasn't the only person that it seemed he was exclusive with. I find it very interesting that infidelity wasn't brought up as an issue for Lucia. And you are right, she seemed to have a few problems with Jack. That tells me that although in theory I can see Jack cheating, I have to echo Itsmeyousee, and say that I don't see it happening when Jack is in an exclusive relationship. I also agree with you Itsmeyousee when you say that what Jack and Ianto had in S1 wasn't anything defined. Regardless of not knowing what to call things post S2, I do think Jack asking Ianto out on that date changed the relationship from casual to something more. If we had seen a CJH-type scene in S2 or COE, I would have considered that a bad thing. It's funny though because even though I don't think they were suppose to be serious in S1, Jack with real!Jack still made me a bit made at him, lol. Maybe I see it as self centered too. And finally, poor Tosh, Owen, and Suzie. They definitely aren't gorgeous even if Jack's only in-house options are Gwen and Ianto. Though I have seen people who think that Jack and Suzie hooked up.

Thanks for pointing that out. I forgot all about that when I was making my point but this is so true. It's why I never bought into the idea that Ianto was a substitute but I know that there are many people who watched the show and walked away with the idea that Ianto was only asked out because Gwen was engaged. I also find it interesting that some fans are so sure that Jack spent the majority of his relationship with Ianto sleeping around. I know that Jack has a reputation and that he's open to hooking up with anyone willing (as long as they are gorgeous enough) but we don't really see that happening on the show. He flirts a bit but that's really the extent of it. I kind of expected there to be a bit of kissing going on but the two times it happened outside of Ianto were Gwen and Martha and they both initiated it. If Jack was just settling, shouldn't we have seen more flirting and some occasional smooching? And meetings with officers wouldn't need to be explained so that Ianto didn't get the wrong idea, yes? Am I missing something? Why do so many fans think that Jack did more than just tell stories about past hook-ups? Why are there fans who seem to think that Jack can't even be a one-person-guy for the amount of time that he's in a relationship?