Muffyn
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The Jennings are in a difficult situation. They had a child who presented that her gender did not match the one assigned at birth. She was also severely depressed and expressing signs of body dysmorphia. They took her to therapists and doctors and, based on input from professionals and their daughters own statements, they absolutely agree Jazz is a transgender girl. To me, they are doing everything they can to support her. Yes, many of Jeanette's actions are based on fear; that is, a fear that her child will self harm. I don't see evil intent here. While I don't want to be besties with Jeanette (I find her rather wearing), I do think she is trying to do the best she can by her daughter. I also think sometimes her fear for Jazz leads her to not push as hard as she should as a parent. Greg seems more balanced in not wanting Jazz to go into public situations that can be harmful and being willing to push more for her to do the things she needs to do such as therapy. That's my baseline in looking at this show. I don't see evil. I see good parents trying to do their best. Yes, their child is somewhat spoiled. Yes, she has been more centered in the family than would be expected if she did not have these issues. But that's where they are.
As far as the other kids pulling away, they are in college now. They are coming home more than I or many of my friends ever did. It's time for them to build their own lives and explore how they exist outside of the family. That's good.
As far as some of the conversations, this episode showed too much how the sausage is made. This was reality TV 101. Jazz was having a normal conversation with her brothers when she remembered they were supposed to be talking about her potential surgery. That's the storyline. They go out to eat and everyone else orders large portions of Jazz's favorite foods - more storyline. Watching someone diet is not generally interesting. Watching someone be tempted is more so. This same scene has played out on too many shows. Jazz sees a hypnotherapist for weight loss. Of course she does. Reality TV shows love things like that.
At times like these it is clear that the producers are prompting the action. Oh, I was going to get the french onion soup but let me switch to the highest calorie option. Then we'll pass big plates of food in front of Jazz's face. Oops, you were having a normal interaction. Remember we are on season 2 of when will Jazz get bottom surgery. That is when the show becomes incredibly boring.
On a different topic, the therapist didn't say definitively that Jazz was self-sabotaging; she said it is common prior to these types of surgery. Yep. In fact it is common prior to many types of surgery or other scary things. I dd appreciate that she said she needs to speak with Jazz. She does. Jazz needs help, off camera, focused on her. Jeanette could also use some help dealing with her fears and concerns.
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Say what you like about me. Mock me. Call me Soggy, disloyal, batshit crazy. Say my hormones have made me insane. But don't you dare insult my foyer! My foyer is my life! It is the truest representation of me! Insult my foyer and I will burn you to the ground!
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My best friend through junior high and high school loved pink things, teddy bears and lace. She read Cosmo, experimented with makeup and was significantly more "girly" than I have ever been. She also burped and farted loudly and would laugh about it. While we have expectations for how boys and girls act, especially in public, that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who don't act within those expectations. Jazz burps and farts and finds it funny. Ok, that's her. I don't see any of that as a reason to question her gender identity.
As far as genitals go, there is such a normal variation among people who have not been suppressed or had other hormonal treatments that I would expect there to also be a huge variation among people who have been suppressed. Full disclosure, I have seen a lot of genitals in my day. I used to help distribute condoms and safer sex information at sex clubs. I have been actively involved in alt-sex communities. And I helped edit a book on vulvas that included more than 100 close up photos. This was used as an educational aid for medical personnel to understand the expected variations and to help promote better comfort with genitalia among med students and other medical personnel.
So we know from the show that Jazz has small genitals. Part of that is due to suppression. It may also mean she started out with small genitals. She has expressed clearly that her concern with using testosterone cream is a fear of increasing her dysmorphia based on increased penis size. So I think it's more than just being a brat; she thinks it could worsen psychological issues. I feel for her in that it is difficult to know if it is an issue she could safely cope with or would it increase her depression to an untenable point. She has difficult decisions to make on the surgery.
Finally, I didn't see her worrying about having larger breasts beyond the typical issues of finding clothing that is flattering. She did make a comment when looking for bathing suits about the fat under her arms. That wasn't a my boobs are too big comment; that was a I'm putting on more weight than I want comment.
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From what we have been told on the show and in her specials, Jazz was in therapy when she was younger. She has not expressed concern that she has made a mistake. She just doesn't want to go to therapy now. She would not have been approved for hormones based solely on her or her parents word alone.
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To me there are multiple things going on with Jazz. The eating issue needs to be addressed. She realizes it is disordered eating as do her parents. She needs help with this. Unfortunately it is not as easy as saying just stop doing this. Disordered eating is complicated.
As to the surgery, of course they had to see Dr. Bowers in person because the show wants the footage. As many of us talked about last year, we know there is more to these conversations than we are shown. Jazz does seem to have unrealistic expectations. She wants someone to tell her she can have surgery without any complications. Life doesn't work that way. She has specific issues based on having small genitalia. Other people have different issues based on their anatomy. This is complex, very personalized surgery.
I don't think her weight gain is a way for her to avoid surgery. Per the show, she was not aware of the weight requirement until she saw Dr. Bowers. It was not mentioned last year by any surgeons. Dr. Bowers did repeat her concerns regarding Jazz's libido. She has been consistent with this. She wants Jazz to have some level of sexual desire before undergoing surgery. Also, while Jazz and Jeanette have decided that they will get approval letters from psychiatrists easily, it does not work that way.
Jazz needs to see a legitimate psychiatrist; that is, one much less likely to chat on air like cousin Debbie. She has issues to explore including depression, food issues, anxiety, etc. Jazz isn't the first person reticent to see a psychiatrist. It can be tough work. She hasn't shown herself as someone who wants to expose her true inner concerns at a deep level. She reminds me of a former friend who would see a therapist and immediately decide the person couldn't handle her issues because they didn't immediately delve into everything.
While I do think Jeanette is unrealistic in her expectations, I don't think she's pushing Jazz into anything. To me it is more that she is not willing to tell Jazz to slow down. Greg is a good parent. Jeanette is a parent scared of telling her daughter "no" and having her do something drastic in response. She needs to work on that because good cop/bad cop is no way to parent.
Jazz is very immature for her age. She has been both over-exposed and over-protected. Add some spoiling and you have someone who in many ways acts much younger than her peers.
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I think they accidentally bleeped "shift". Guess they really weren't trusting Frances.
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So Madison was a school counselor meaning one of her primary job skills was communication, even in difficult circumstances. But in her taciturn brilliance she lets Daniel hug his dead daughter who should be turning momentarily. She sucks in so many ways.
Of course she's brilliant enough to leave junkie Nick with a bag full o' drugs. We all knew that would end well. Then Nick, showing he got his reasoning skills from her, chooses to get high with Mr. Everyone I Know Deserves to Die McShiny Teeth. The stupidity knows no bounds.
The biggest problem with the Nick and Troy spinning among the walkers scene isn't that they're talking, or spinning, or barely have any blood on them; it's that the show thinks we care if these two chucklefucks get taken out of the living population. The pair of them deserve to die many times over.
When Madison tells Daniel that Ofelia saved Alicia's life, I wish he had responded, "Big fucking deal. Ooh, your daughter gets to live. I just dug a grave for mine with my bare hands." I expect that when he said "This is no place for you" he meant they can't afford to have her destroy this place too.
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Dolores reminding her son multiple times to not anger her “husband” was throwing all kinds of red flags. Is he going to attack the boy? Has there been physical abuse? And after saying that multiple times, she is going to have the “husband” talk to the son about not getting his college applications in on time. Yeah, that should end well. She really seems to be a woman who is staying with an abusive asshole because she and her children are financially dependent. She really sounds like she wants to get back together with him. We really don’t need a domestic abuse storyline.
Then we have relationship guru Siggy explaining that her husband is also a controlling jackhole. I am sure people coming to Siggy’s events are only there for the housewife viewing. If we didn’t already know her skillset was 100% meaningless platitudes, seeing how terrible her marriage is seals the deal.
They have replaced Easter Island head Jac with Madame the Puppet face Danielle. How much has she done to her face? If you hug her, be careful. Those cheekbones could take an eye out. She looks pointy and frozen.
It looks like they are trying to bring back the “magic” of the table flipping, hair pulling, BS crazy antics of the past. We’ll see what we get. I just wish my DVR had a special filter to automatically lower sound by half only for Siggy, aka the most talented woman in the world.
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Wow, it's an Easter miracle. Tamra is talking to Lydia about Vicki when Vicki calls because Steve told her to. How could this happen when the cameras were there? Quelle surprise!!!!! Who ever thought this could happen?
I'm pretty sure Peggy is Armenian. I mean there have been a few subtle clues. She is Christian and she cooks with love and she slaughters the English language and her husband is named Diko. If she joined Vicki and Kelly for colonics we would have been told how Armenians do colonics by pumping their colons full of special water and they do it with love and they were the first to do it. Then Diko would stop in to explain Peggy was the best ever at getting a colonic. She could use an extra special gold tone ass plug. Lydia could then explain how colonics aren't in the bible but ball snipping is. What the hell has happened to this show?
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I have found that Elisabeth Moss gets extraordinary roles but I always think someone else would be better in them. I never feel she lives up to the hype.
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Shout out to Oprah's seat filler for the win!
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Ann Dowd's speech brought a tear to my eye. That was the moment of the night for me.
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Baelish deserved to die. I know it. But I a going to miss that sleazy, lying, evil man. Gods help me, I find him sexy. Well, when he was alive. He’s much less appealing bleeding out on the floor.
The Lannister men really like suggesting Cersai kill them. Damn, haven’t they ever been told, “Don’t poke the bear.” One of these days she’ll give the Mountain the order.
So we finally hear it said that Jon is not a bastard. No surprise there. I would actually like a story with kings, queens and great families in which noble blood was meaningless. I a tired of the born for greatness trope. At least it gave us a reason for Bran time.
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On 8/20/2017 at 8:04 AM, Ohwell said:
There's this commercial where the nurse tells this kid in the hospital that she has terrible news, then she says "You. Have. BUGEYES!" She's showing him something on the laptop and I think it has to do with Windows 10 or something. All I know is that I hate her, I hate the commercial, and they run the damn thing constantly.
On 8/20/2017 at 4:19 PM, TattleTeeny said:Oh, about that "you have bug eyes" commercial: even in jest and with good intentions, is it really the best idea to say, "I have bad news" to a little kid in a hospital bed?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH! I came here to post about this horrible commercial. It plays about 60 billion times a day. I hate the actress, I hate her line readings, I hate the idea that this tablet let her find what she really wants to in life with is take pictures of kids and put crap all over them, I hate the kid's OTT laugh. It's bad news whenever this commercial is on, and no one drawing bug eyes is going to make it better news.
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In defense of Jazz's talk of wanting a beautiful vagina, I think she is using shorthand for wanting genitalia that looks normal to her. There are huge variations in genitalia. With so much easier access to porn, the idea of an aesthetic ideal is more prevalent. (Cue Lauri Metcalf from Getting On screaming, "There is no such thing as the perfect vulva!") In her discussions with Dr. Bowers, Jazz was really talking about functionality. Depth isn't for looks; it's for function.
For any other person, I would say have the doctor leave the room when you talk about sex, masturbation, etc. For Jazz, it's all going to be on TV anyway. It wouldn't be my choice to have this discussion on front of my parents. I would be more like Jazz's dad - how quickly can I crawl out of here and pretend I never heard any of this. But the rules of the game change a bit when your child is dealing with major decisions. Given Jazz's willingness to share everything, now her brothers will be subjected to her tales of masturbation.
I was happy to see Jeanette say to Jazz that dating isn't all about sex. She could kiss and cuddle and simply spend time with someone.
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Lydia's husband looks like he doesn't have enough skin to cover his face. She must have been excited to find someone stranger looking than her.
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7 hours ago, Impatient said:
Oh Granny 58, let me hasten to correct one thing. It is not necessarily true that self-resolving gender dysphoric children revert to homosexuality. I don't think that has been confirmed or quantified. But it IS true that 80% of children claiming to be "trapped in the wrong body" stop feeling that way without treatment. They are self-resolving of that conflict.
Yes, the gay community is furious about this whole transgender acceptance movement, and especially the idea that these are children with congenital abnormalities that must be medically and surgically corrected.Let's address two issues. 1) it is highly common that at some point during childhood, children express a sense that they are the gender opposite if what they are believed to be. That is not the same as gender dysphoria. A male child choosing for a short time to wear dresses or pay with dolls is not uncommon, nor is a female child wanting to be treated as they believe boys are treated. The 80% figure you are stating relates to the short term behaviors and are often the result of children trying to different roles. I have seen no studies showing such extreme numbers for youth that identify as gender or body dysmorphic.
2) There are people and groups within the queer community that do not support transgender persons and believe these persons' experiences are valid. These groups do not speak for their entire gay community. It is very dangerous to make statements about an entire community.
There is a critical flaw in the reasoning that transgender women are gay men that are ashamed of their sexuality and therefore choose to be trans. Firstly, acceptance of gay men is much higher in our society than acceptance of transgender women. Secondly, sexuality and gender are different issues. Transgender women are not all sexually attracted to men. There are gay, straight and bisexual transgender women just as there are gay, straight and bisexual cisgender women. (I am using the most commonly listed terms for sexuality; however, all sexualities are apparent among both cisgender and transgender persons).
7 hours ago, Impatient said:In terms of people asking what the, for lack of a better word, recidivism rate is (i.e., people who undergo sexual reassignment surgery and then regret it), as far as I have been able to discern, it is about 20%. But it is difficult to say. The anecdotal reports say 20%. Peer-reviewed scientific journals are far more negative and report the percentage of such patients as being closer to 50%. Given that the number of people who report gender confusion in early childhood and who self-resolve that confusion (i.e., stop feeling they are trapped in the wrong body) is 80%, I actually think the science may be more accurate than the anecdotal evidence. I NORMALLY think peer-reviewed scientific journals are more accurate than anecdotal evidence, but the push back from the trans community is so strong that this becomes a difficult position to take. So I am waffling a bit.
Lastly, someone here said, 'Would someone please define transgender? No one has done so, despite my asking repeatedly' Something like that, words to that effect.
Well yes, but that brings us full circle. The comments I have been making here since this season started are that this show provides an opportunity to address those questions: what is the underlying biology in transgender individuals that accounts for gender dysphoria? . . .
The suicide rate does not remain as high for persons who undergo treatment for gender dysmorphia. I addressed the study that was misquoted in national media as "proving" this in the post above:
The researcher has confirmed that the study did not show equal or increased suicidal ideation or attempts among people who underwent treatment. This is a peer-reviewed study.
As for studies on the underlying biology of transgender people, there are not a lot available because the research field is relatively new (not because trans people didn't exist; there were just few studies). Providing links only to sites that can be accessed for free and without registration, here are a few interesting reads.
Biological Basis of the Transgender Brain
Transgender differences caught on brain scan
Transgender Evidence Found on Brain Scans - this is only a synopsis
As to a definition of transgender, when applied to people, it refers to people whose gender assigned at birth does not match the gender they feel they are. And yes, it is difficult how to understand how someone feels they are one gender or another. I know that I don't feel like a man. Fortunately for me, I have always been considered female. Beyond that I have to take other people at their word when they tell me how they feel. Living as a transgender person and undergoing treatments is such a difficult process, I know no one who has made this decision lightly. While on I Am Jazz we see her only dealing with doctors who fully support her diagnosis and treatment, most people do not have that experience. The standard is to assume the person is not transgender and to make them work very hard to prove they are.
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The bathroom laws were not first proposed by the transgender community. The latest laws were proposed in reaction to laws that were aimed at forcing people to use the bathrooms that matched the gender they were assigned at birth, regardless of transition status. So, transgender men with full facial hair and other male identifiers would be expected to use the women's room. Transgender women who were living their lives as women, dressed in what we consider women's clothing, etc., would be expected to use the men's room even if they appeared as women.
The transgender people I know use the restroom that most fits how they appear. So yes, there are women with penises using bathroom stalls in the women's room. There are men with vulvas using stalls in men's room. And for many of them, you would never know.
Being a cisgender woman who is not always seen as gender conforming, I have been personally subjected to harassment in women's rooms. This has happened for a long time. I am tall, have a deep voice and broad shoulders. so there are people who have taken umbrage at my being in the women's restroom. Female friends with short hair are also subject to harassment. I tend to fall to the idea of people just want to pee and get on with their day. That's it. Are there creepers? Yes. Was the issue of men dressing as women to get into the women's bathroom a real issue prior to this transgender debate a serious issue. No. The level of harassment that non-gender conforming people are subject to does not make this something that would be common. As has been stated, regardless of gender it is not okay to assault someone in a public restroom, to look at people's genitals, to peep under stall doors, etc.
As to the argument that the gay community does not support the transgender community, I will take that to the questions thread since it does not seem relevant to this episode. I will also address the issue of what makes someone transgender and peer-reviewed research since those are more general questions. Feel encouraged to follow me there.
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@Caracoa1 you raised a interesting question. I checked with a friend who is an attorney and a transgender woman. It would depend on what is on her ID. In the episode where Jazz gets her license, they mentioned it would say male and have her birth name. The rules regarding legal gender change vary by state. From the transequality.org website, "In order to update name and/or gender on a Florida ID, the applicant must submit (1) the court order for a name change and/or (2) a signed original statement on office letterhead from the attending physician stating that the applicant is undergoing appropriate clinical treatment for gender transition." Jazz is undergoing treatment for gender transition since she is on hormone blockers. She would have to follow through on these steps to be able to change her gender identification under the laws of the state of Florida. Until then, they have her listed as male so she would need to sign up for selective service when she turns 18.
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It feels to me like we are very much caught in a reality show Catch-22. Jazz's ability to doctor shop so extensively is supported by several things that most people don't have. Her family is financially sound and very supportive of her. And she has a TV show that wants to make the surgical discussion part of the storyline. The consultations are filmed. These are business trips for the Jennings.
I share many people's frustration that we are given these snippets of the conversations with the doctors. Clearly the Jennings should ask why each doctor is suggesting what they are suggesting beyond the answer of "there's not much material to work with." I would hope that before moving forward they would have a many more complete discussions on this. This is where Jazz having more interactions with support groups and other transgender people who had to think through these types of issues would help. I find myself hoping it is among all of the things we don't see while we are being fed a limited storyline of "oh noes! What will she decide?!?!?!" There are huge parts of her life that are not shown on TV. I would contend that this is because either those places and/or people do not want to participate in the show or Jazz's parents, in trying to allow her to be both public and protected, has refused to allow some of her day-to-day to be shown. They do seem to want her to have as normal of a high school experience as they can even though she is transgender and on TV.
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On 7/23/2017 at 9:54 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:
I am clearly in a dark mood. This commercial makes me think the driver would be a family annihilator if something went wrong in their boss life.
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On 7/22/2017 at 0:45 PM, Jamoche said:
The more I see the car ad where the teenagers have just been in an accident and are calling their parents all teary-voiced, the more odd it seems. I've been in accidents. Quietly apologetic is not the first reaction, it's shocky post-adrenaline jitters. It takes a while for that to work its way down to quiet anything. Those kids are obviously immediately post-impact, they should sound hyper. Unless someone got hurt, and I don't think it's going there.
I assume the kids are regularly beaten at home. Their first concern is telling their parents they wrecked the car in a way that won't result in the parents going into a psychotic rage. It's a learned behavior from years of trying to deescalate family situations. Just me?
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If Jazz has bottom surgery, her prostate would not be removed. One of the doctors mentioned on the show that she would have a prostate gland. The prostate gland, for those that have them, has effects to urinary continence. This is discussed on Dr. Reed's site. Note: This particular page is NSFW due to a close up photo of a vulva.
The colostomy questions was answered previously. For the colon vaginoplasty, a small section of colon (large intestine) is removed. We typically have 4.5-5 feet of colon. They would take approximately four inches, then sew the remainder together. To need a colostomy, a very large portion on the large intestine would need to be lost, typically due to cancer or extreme cases of IBS or immune disorders that prevent normal functioning. Colostomies are also performed when the rectum no longer functions properly. Colon vaginoplasty does not involve any changes to the rectum or anus. In an earlier post in this forum I linked to a page showing exactly how the procedures are done.
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I'm glad huge breasts lady wore light lipstick. With the excessive lip filler and red lipstick, her face would look like a baboon's ass.
I really want more people like George.
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S04.E05: Trans Girl Meets Girl
in I Am Jazz
It looks to me like Jazz had already dropped quite a bit of the weight by the time this episode was filmed. She looks much smaller than she did when they went to the conference (during hurricane Irma) and when she saw Dr. Bowers. It feels like the show is again dragging something out for the sale of the storyline. I appreciated that the therapist was talking about needing to explore her reasons for binging. One way or another, the therapists are both saying they need to speak with her off camera in actual sessions prior to issuing a letter. That's how it works for everyone else, so of course that how it works for her.
The focus issue to me as well as the many doctors she has seen are more a matter of being on the show than anything else. The show has a story to tell and right now it is all about genitals and potential dating.