Swansong

For me the show glosses almost as much over developing their on-screen working relationship over the course of the seasons as it does over their personal relationship which is why the writing of the relationship ultimately seems so weak. It's not because we don't see them going on dates or arguing over who left the cap off the toothpaste or whatever. It's because we never see them outside of their work relationship, but their working relationship mostly consists of little more than Ianto just happening to share the same scene Jack while Jack's relationship with someone else, usually Gwen or Owen or some guest character is actually developed. If some significant development happens between them that apparently happens off screen and is never mentioned on-screen. The actors have an easy rapport on-screen and that works for the characters, but I never really got the sense the writers put any more thought into their working relationship than they did in their personal. I enjoy their rare individual scenes and enjoy the idea, at least in theory, that they're professional on the job, but I feel like that's more happenstance and me wanting to put the best spin on things than necessarily intended. I can't say I'd take any of that as a given though. The few times we see Jack outside of work Ianto is no-where around and the one time we get close to see Ianto doing something after hours in s2 he goes with Gwen and Owen not Jack,who doesn't even know where he is, even though Jack would have made more sense to go with particularly since neither Gwen or Owen seem all that interested in being there. In Adam Jack apparently isn't expecting to find Ianto when he returns to the Hub. At the end of SB Jack presumably chooses to go back to the Hub and his memories alone, no idea what happens to Ianto. If anything there's more evidence that they don't actually spend all that much time with each other after work than anything that really suggests they do. And other than Gwen's comment about in reference to Jack saying he needs Ianto's local knowledge there's never even a reference to them doing anything after hours outside of sex before s3. And even then they supposedly were out on an intimate dinner date when Rhiannon's friend saw them, but apparently being out in public as a couple with Jack is still so new to Ianto he freaks out over Doctor Rupesh noticing it (even though they want him believing they're just some couple). So is that supposed to be a new thing for them? Or is it that Ianto can only handle being potentially seen as a couple if dinner is involved? That's why it is a problem for me. If the way they were written was still slight, but relatively consistent that would be one thing, but we don't even get that when they do bother to remember them. It seems to veer from yes Ianto matters to Jack one episode to 'Ianto, who?'.

Lol! I'd say Ianto getting overly emotional over some random victims is pretty untypical for him, but it's not exactly treated as untypical by the script. The other stuff just seems like the typical ghostly story cliches: the unseen ghostly figure that runs by, the elderly person with preternatural insights that set the tone or conveniently move the plot forward. I can't say it's ever really treated any deeper than that. If we're supposed to believe Ianto develops some connection or is affected so deeply by the Night Travellers that his emotions end up all out of whack I can't say I find that aspect particularly well done.

True. Or it could be a comment on the fact that the show is reluctant to commit to anymore than acknowledging these two characters are in a relationship. The thing is they are a couple and have been involved to varying degrees since the middle of season one and I honestly can't see the point of putting them in a relationship, particularly in this case where there was no real expectation that these were the two characters who were going to get together, and then deliberately making a point of never showing that aspect of them or even really alluding to it except in the barest, most tokenistic way possible. Not that I particularly require that in this episode specifically, it's just a general bug, but, yeah I have to say, that basically pulling the same old same old with them isn't really a plus for me here. It just reinforces the idea for most of the creative team on this show they're still really only a couple in name only and not much more than that. Well except I get your point, though, that this is an episode with no personal drama. Personally, I don't mind the personal drama beyond the fact that for the most part it tends to be predominantly focused on the same two characters, Gwen and Owen. I don't mind the lack of personal drama either. But I also don't think that no 'personal drama' means the characters shouldn't be given a sense of, for lack of a better word, motivation for their actions particularly if you're going to have them suddenly being overwhelmed by their emotions in a way that's pretty untypical for them. Acting in ways that aren't really contextualized or explained by the story line is one of the things I think this show does way too often when it comes to Ianto mostly because I don't think they consider him a character in his own right or much beyond a plot point to move other characters' story lines along. When I talk about 'personal' I don't just mean personal details like where they went to school or what their flat might look like or background information or whether Jack and Ianto actually go out on dates or just hang around the Hub. I mean those details are great and I definitely wish they'd done more of that beyond Gwen especially since the only reason they did that with Gwen is because she was the character they wanted us to care about and identify with and so they obviously understood that if you want your audience to connect to a character giving a sense of what makes them tick, showing all aspects of their lives, showing what motivates them etc on screen helps with that. I mean giving a sense at any particular point in any given story why this particular character might respond in this particular way to events as opposed to just having them behave in a particular way just because the plot needs it or just because the writer or director thought it might look cool or needed to generate a specific response..

I guess since I don't see that as particularly different from how we see them in pretty much every other episode because we only ever see them in work mode with very little, if any, development made to their relationship or Ianto as a character even within the context of their working relationship, that in itself doesn't particularly add much to what I think, even outside of their contribution, is a pretty mediocre episode. I mean they always work well and easily together. We see that as far back as TKKS and Combat so they're not exactly treading new territory with them in this episode and to be honest that feels, like usual, that it has more to do with the actors and their rapport than the writing and its intentions. In terms of the writing they feel pretty incidental for most of the episode. We never really actually see them interacting in personal mode and when there is a 'personal crisis' even when it should affect them that aspect is pretty much ignored. That's not something that is ever really explored with them. So, while it's nice to see them together in any context I just don't think it adds all that much to the episode or them in the end, certainly not enough to make the episode itself a winner. It's just a blah episode to me that has the potential to be a bit more than that both in terms of the villains and the plot and Jack and Ianto themselves and never really is. And I agree with the comments about GDL. He gets a lot of flack for his acting in some quarters and he's certainly not the greatest actor, but he's pretty much the only reason why I ended up caring about or really understanding to any degree what was otherwise a pretty underwritten character.

I don't think we necessarily need to know someone's home life/family background to understand them although it's great to get those details.I think we learnt a fair bit about Owen and what makes him tick which is why his death didn't bother me that much. For want of a better explanation the writers do try and write him so we get inside his head, to explain his motivations. That's not really something I feel with this episode when it comes to Ianto.

He was the same guy who was working on the case with them.

Oh Lord this show. There are moments and story lines (the guy being stalked in the first episode, the scene in this episode where stalker guy shows up at Maggie Q's office and tells her realises how inappropriate his behaviour is and he wants help, but it's clearly just part of his stalker m.o to try and ingratiate himself with her) where I think this could actually be a genuinely interesting show about stalkers and how they operate and their victims and how they're affected by this behaviour. But those moments are so rare and mostly this show just feels like an excuse for Kevin Williamson to trot out one horror movie cliche after another. When DM killed the guy and then turned his back on the body I rolled my eyes so hard I'm sure I did some damage.There's a part of me that keeps saying that it's early days and there's a possibility the show will get better, but there's a part of me that thinks save your eyes. It's pretty obvious the tone they're going for is horror movie shocks and thrills and that the subject of stalking is just a timely hook to hang that on and nothing about that is particularly interesting especially when you can predict what's going to happen thanks to all the obvious cliches. Maybe if this show does well enough, though, someone else will take a stab at the topic and do a show about stalking I might actually find interesting. I hope so. And really is the only reason ER's character seems to be against DM seeing his son is that she's mad at him for being kind of a twat? Because if there was a legitimate reason, like he was dangerous, shouldn't she being doing more than telling him to stay away? That whole story line is so ugh because they have him behaving like a stalker (on a show about stalkers), but her motives for keeping him from their son seem so weak. And then threatening his job so that right now she seems like the jerk. It's obvious they're going for he's a misunderstood arsehole with DM's character, but I can't locate the energy to care about the angst with his ex. I did laugh when the other cop said something like 'why do New York cops always have to remind you they're from New York' though and when DM's character asked him about possible forensic evidence and he replied 'I would have led with that if there was'. But I agree with who ever said none of this story lines seem to have all that much to do with stalking except tangentially.

For me the issue isn't really whether they just swapped Ianto for Gwen without much thought for their respective characters. I can totally buy these writers would do something like that because they often mold the characters to the given plot rather than having the plot fit the characters, but that's kind of an incidental issue to me with regards to this episode. Regardless of whether they did re-writes or not, for a 'Ianto' epsiode I never felt it actually told us anything about Ianto.That wouldn't be much of an issue if they were doing the character development for his character in other episodes, but they're not. I mean it starts off kind of promisingly, but then they drop all that and mostly focus on Jack. Are they trying to tell us that they believe the only really interesting thing about Ianto as a character is Jack?

It isn't that he has to have a personal link to the case. The episode suggests a potential one, but drops it pretty quickly. Ianto doesn't generally get that emotionally invested in cases, that's usually Gwen's terrain, taking the cases personally, but they have him getting all emotional and I can't even say it's because of the kid because even before they know it's only the kid that survived he's in tears. So the point for me is why is this case as opposed to any other case he's involved in the one he's so emotional about? It would be nice to get some sense of that from the narrative. At least a personal connection would give his emotional state some context. And I guess the problem for me is while I think the villains have potential the overall case isn't all that interesting and none of the other guest characters are particularly memorable so the episode feels kind of weak. I could overlook that if at least the episode were being used to give Ianto some much needed character development, but it doesn't do that either. It doesn't really do anything of note so it ends up being kind of meh. I don't hate it like some people do, but I wouldn't particularly go out of my way to watch it again either. But if the only reason Ianto was in the episode was because of a scheduling issue with EM then obviously they weren't planning to suggest that change at all. If anything they wrote the episode with the intention of keeping the status quo of Gwen being Jack's confidant even this late in the season. It's apparently just a lucky coincidence that Ianto gets to be that.

Lol! This is more of a Jack-centric episode than anything.We learn more about his history, we get a sense of why the case is significant to him so it's obviously possible to show them working together and still give the characters development, but they only do that with Jack. Ianto is once again just there for Jack to play off. We leave the episode knowing as much about him going out as we do going in. There's no real sense of why the case is so emotional to him. I mean usually when he's that emotional it's because of a direct emotional connection to the situation, but nothing like that is really established with this case. I like the beginning because there's a sense we're getting to see what makes Ianto tick, but it's only a brief moment and then it's dropped. It's not as bad as Adrift, but it's pretty close in my mind. I don't have a problem with the scene or Ianto's reactions. He's not doing anything that stands out. He's just listening to a Jack story, although it seems pretty generic scene. If Tosh were in the chair instead of Ianto little would really change, I suspect. I can see why people see it as a Gwen scene because she would normally be in Ianto's position of being the sounding board for one of Jack's stories. And in fact in Small World we get a very similar scene only with Gwen listening to Jack talk about Estelle and the fairies.

I suppose because they qualify as 'names' in the sci-fi world. The others are more like jobbing writers. Lol! I agree. I know the character development tends to be hit and miss (mostly miss), but assuming the characters are inter-changeable doesn't help that.

Aren't they all guest writers hired to write specific episodes except Chibnall? I don't think they had on staff writers. But they did seem to make a big deal out of Hammond, I guess because of his Sapphire and Steel credentials.. I found the episode kind of meh, but I thought the villains were suitably creepy, but I'm not a fan of the way he writers Jack's dialogue even though in Small Worlds it did give me some unintended laughs.

I like the idea of it more than the actual results. But I like the scene at the beginning when they go to the cinema. I don't know if this is supposed to be a 'Ianto' episode, but if it is I hate that it doesn't do much of a job of allowing us to get to know something more about Ianto.

I did too, but it felt like they kind of rushed through it and now have apparently dropped it since that stalker seems to have glommed on to Maggie Q's character. I didn't hate the episode, but I kept feeling like it would have been a much stronger episode if they'd focused on that storyline and dropped the main story. I wouldn't mind D.M's character being a creeper if it felt like they were actually going for that and going somewhere with it. But obviously the idea that he might be a stalker was supposed to be mis-leading or at least we're supposed to think he's not like the others. But I agree right now he just comes off as unappealing.

I found that whole conversation even more gratuitous and annoying than the absurd horror film style violence because it seemed so stupidly obnoxious and unnecessary unless they're actually setting up Dylan McDermott's character as an actual stalker in the making. Who talks to their boss like that even if they're thinking it, especially on their first day on the job? And honestly on a show about stalking what are they suggesting by even having it in the episode? That by choosing to dress a certain way women are really asking for whatever attention they get?

Lol! Yeah. JB always gives me the best unintentional laughs. I think a lot of the time they want to have their cake and eat it too and that's why a lot of the moments that could work really, well, end up not. The silliness of someone immediately becoming nine months pregnant because of an alien bite the night before is one of the few things I don't actually dislike about the episode. lol

I don't think the problem is the line so much as the context it comes in. At least for me. I actually like the line on its own and I actually like JB's delivery, but then it's followed up by Ianto coming over and being awkwardly ignored while Jack and Gwen and remain lost in each other and then when Jack does finally notice Ianto and dance with him his mind is apparently still on Gwen not the person he's dancing with. Also even at this point in the season it's not clear what their relationship is supposed to be. Even after nine episodes (I'm ignoring s1) it doesn't seem to have much more depth or development than it did at the beginning so is this line the show's way of defining how they see the relationship with Ianto as the relationship equivalent of pizza as far as Jack is concerned especially since Jack's affection for Ianto seems to come and go according to which writer is on the job. I can see why people had so much trouble with that line for those reasons and possibly because so much of their development as it was basically revolved around the occasional sexual innuendo and I suspect it reinforced for a lot of people that the show only saw Ianto as a convenient sex toy for Jack and would only ever see the relationship as shallow. I think the beginning of the season gave the hope that we would finally begin to see some weight given to the relationship, but I think their scene in TTLM was really as emotionally deep as it ever got this season and then it kind of flat-lined. I honestly wish they'd just given Jack and Gwen their moment and left Ianto out of it if this was how they were going to play things since the only purpose of his inclusion seems to be to diss him. I mean even if the point is to show him taking charge and begin comfortable with the relationship in public the way they frame it just ends up making him look like a foolish idiot in love with a guy who isn't apparently all that into him. If that was the intention then yes they did a terrible job. Even when she gives her speech to Jack about why she's marrying Rhys it's basically I owe him and at least he made an offer which is more than you did which suggests less that she's choosing Rhys, but settling for him because Jack won't step up. I mean I guess technically that's still a choice, but certainly not the way the writer supposedly intended. And then they have her jumping into Jack's arms and basically having to be reminded that her fiance's standing right there. lol. How any of this is supposed to sell us on the idea that she really wanted Rhys I don't know. But I guess that's why it's such a crap show so much of the time. But, even more than the dreaded 'dance' the stuff between Jack/Gwen/Rhys is why I can't with this episode. There's a moment towards the beginning when she first wakes and seems genuinely excited to be getting married that I think 'aww', but it's pretty much down hill after that for me. Everything else with them gives me second-hand embarrassment. I've never been so glad to see a triangle die.

I think that has more to do with the content than the tone though. Making your parents believe you're carrying their grandchild when you know you'll just have to disappoint them later or a friend being murdered and everyone partying like it's no big thing are faily, but I still think the idea of having a lighter episode was still a good one. It just needed a better written, more thought out story line. On the other hand even a well-written, screwball comedy style episode would really be out of place in s3 and s4. But I think the structure of s1 and s2 could accommodate it.

It's not a particularly original joke, is it? But there are so many other things that annoy me so much more about this episode than this scene so it doesn't really bother me. I will say as much as I dislike this episode I do appreciate that in the first two seasons you could have darker episodes and lighter episodes without either feeling out of place.

Pity they then go and undermine all that in COE.

I'll have to join you on that island because I dislike this episode too for pretty much for the same reasons you do. As far as I'm concerned when Owen is the most appealing character in the room you've gone wrong somewhere.

I was watching Adam today and I was thinking shouldn't the team be more confused about things. Like when Gwen suddenly appears and doesn't know who Adam is he inserts himself into her memories, but he doesn't change her memories of Owen and Tosh so why isn't she confused by Owen's personality change. And then he changes Tosh's memories to make her believe she's been in a relationship with him for a year, but when Owen stumbles on them kissing he doesn't change his memories, just walks away with a smirk, but no-one seems confused by the fact that they've supposedly been together for a year. it made me kind of wish for an episode where Adam keeps changing one person's memories, but keeps forgetting to change everyone else's. Wacky hijinks ensue.

Yes, but to be honest I don't think that's the case just to show how crazy Agnes is either because that's a pretty common occurrence on the show and I guess the extras too. Gwen is often treated as special and amazing whether she actually does something to warrant the tag or not. So while Agnes is indeed nuts I suspect even if she wasn't we'd still get the same rhetoric. Thanks. Do they incorporate any other guest characters from the shows into the books besides Suzie and Bilis/

I mean I wouldn't be surprised if it actually was since his characterization is basically there to be the butt of Agnes derogatory comments and damsel in distress. Jack at least gets to be useful in the end and from what I remember he's the only one who doesn't fall over her every word she says.

Agnes is more than a bit of a nutter, but the way the writer writes Ianto doesn't really convince me it's just about her point of view. Gwen is really good at making people feel good about themselves. lol. Is this the book with Bilis or is that another one?