25thID

I liked Cabot, and I think Barba is ok. I think they let Cabot be an ADA, and have some sort of reign over her office, as well as let her lose some cases, to show that "life isn't always fair." I think that Barba is "just ok" is because, while he is a good ADA, and is very talented at his job, his character has been watered down. He started out as a very sharp, aggressive ADA who was quick and strong...but, not anymore. He still has some of those characteristics, but, it seems like he's only allowed to do what SVU wants him to do, and he goes with it. All in all, Cabot had her flaws as well, but the writing was better for her, and she seemed to kind of have a separation between her life and job, and loved both. Barba seems like he just enjoys his job, is good at it, but it kind of seems like he's indifferent at times. I don't know how else to articulate it...I hope that at least kind of makes sense....

I agree. Not only was the ensemble just better in general, for our viewing pleasure, and to give us an idea of all (although watered down/abbreviated) the work that went into a case, everyone seemed to have their own points of view, and some (Munch) could even see more than one side, but, once he made up his mind, which was usually AFTER he got the facts, he went after the perp balls out, which I liked; he tried to be somewhat objective, THEN acted once he had the facts. I also like how Dr. Huang would offer a pretty damn objective opinion, even if it didn't support the squad and/or their theories; he was showing facts/evidence in a different light, and it eventually helped the squad out, even if it took ALL episode for them to understand where he was coming from. Also, it was great to get a differing opinion, one that was based on study, observation, science, et al, and not on people just not liking it, etc. He often was the voice of reason, and often was a lone dissenter, which was refreshing. Now, everyone agrees on everything, and everyone is an echo. No one has any dissention, other thoughts, different opinions, and don't dare to speak up if they do. I mean, if anyone tried to offer differing opinions from St Benson, there'd be hell to pay, but, luckily, everyone has the exact same opinion, no matter what. Dr. Huang could do what he wanted (in a sense) without fear of punishment from St Benson, or NYPD; now its one big echo chamber, for better or worse...usually worse.

I totally agree, especially with the St Benson sticking her nose in on plea deals, should a perp be tried, etc. It's hit an all time high this season, and it makes Barba look he can't/doesn't know how to do his job. I think next year, St Benson is going to try all cases, and I mean ALL. 1 minute over 1 hour parking? 25-life, sucka. Also, the cases that are grey ALWAYS go the way of SVU, especially with weak to no evidence. Like you said, I'd rather the defendant walk, if that's the case. Maybe that could set up a future case, where the defendant gets off, feels empowered/emboldened, and escalates his crime and goes on a spree. It'll take a bit for the team to catch the defendant, and there could be a huge shit storm from the media and 1PP for not being able to convict the first time....all because St Benson told Barba to try a weak case. Anyways, I agree with the gray area isn't always a charcoal gray or a light grey, and I do hope next season is better. I would say it can't get worse, but, I really, really don't want to tempt fate. As with you, this season really tried my patience, and it was found guilty....on ALL charges of almost losing interest.

I agree, yeah, Carisi seems nice; and the actor himself seems like a nice guy, but, for me, he is just written poorly. I was irked by what the writers did to Stabler with the weekly family melodrama and anger at the drop of a hat, and how they made Amaro into the almost spitting image of a later Stabler, so it was kind of refreshing to get someone who is single (no family drama, although I see them headed that way with his mystery girlfriend), and someone who is religious like Stabler and Amaro (but isn't over the top about it.....yet), and seems more reasonable. That being said, to me, he seems to just be a goofy character. He lacks a certain serious demeanor to me; whereas Stabler and Amaro were too angry and short fused, I would take them seriously and listen to them, because they: 1) seemed like they could get into your head B) seemed like they could "back it up," meaning that, yeah, you cant always manhandle perps, but I could see how they'd be able to walk the walk after talking the talk. I don't get that with Carisi. He just seems like he's not all bark with no bite- his bark is more like a yawn. I don't get the feeling he would be able to back himself up on threats, or to really get into your head. I just don't see him as someone who can REALLY dig deep to get the job done. He's not a bad detective, or guy, but, he just kind of seems to be "there;" not really good or bad, just kind of "is." Granted, his hands were tied with the ICE agents when they picked up Yusef, I could see Amaro and/or Stabler maybe being able to sweet talk/stall them long enough to do something; or at least be taken seriously enough to maybe get some sort of information from the ICE agents to go on to help Yusef. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend Amaro or Stabler, or to totally bash Carisi, as, like you said, it WAS nice to see a different kind of detective than those two as a breath of fresh air, but it seems like he hasn't grown that much. He's been a police officer for awhile now, and has been with SVU long enough to have an idea about "how things work," so I'd think he'd have more of a tool bag/bag of tricks to use. Instead, we continue to get a character that struggles to scratch the surface in investigations and interviews. I guess I'm just saying that the writers are letting the Carisi character kind of get stagnant, and not develop him a little bit more. Again, I'm not trying to bash the character or the actor, but, Carisi just lacks any sort of depth or sense of being believable. He seems to be the same detective as he was on day one.

I've never really been a fan of Carisi. I wasn't a big fan of Amaro, at first, but he kind of grew on me after awhile. There's just something about Carisi that I don't like. He just kind of seems over the top for me, in some way. I think part of it is over acting, and the writing does make it seem like he is a golden child, or at least like he can do no wrong; he did start out really, really annoying (at least to me), and that did somewhat fade away a little, but, his character doesn't really do anything to me. I understand this is "just" a tv show, and, granted, Stabler and Amaro weren't exactly oceans of depth, but Carisi strikes me as a cardboard cutout- he is pretty stiff, lacks depth, and is bigger than life (in the sense of a cardboard cutout being vividly colored, but lacking any substance.) That, topped with St Bensons' holier than thou, is kind of a recipe for disaster and very campy tv....at least to me. P.S. I think he is unintentionally comedic fodder. If it's intentional, kudos to the horrible writers, even if it's really campy. My money is on the unintentional, though. Just his delivery on most of his lines comes across as really cheesy and like he's trying to act; it's just not natural and comes across as forced and unintentionally funny most of the time.

I hear ya. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth by any means. I just would to see some pairs, too! I think that would help this show immensely, and I do think she is a better detective than a CO. She seems kinda overwhelmed and over her head. It'd be a nice pair if she and Fin paired up...and it'd help kinda temper her style, too.

I totally agree with a new CO/someone else in charge. Normally, I'd root for someone who is newly (or otherwise) promoted, especially someone from within the squad (as I am now really pulling for Finn), BUT, I find myself hoping beyond all hope that St Benson gets demoted or something, just to get her out of SVU/Command. It's really too bad, what has happened to her character. I think there was a great opportunity when Stabler left to have her grow as a detective/person/character, but she has now become a bad stereotype, and is someone who reaffirms negative stereotypes of women in charge. I am all for St Benson in charge, but not as her character is now. As @Redskinsfan said, kick her back to being an investigator- not as a punishment, but that seems to be what she wants to do; she may try to relish in her new role as CO of SVU, but she is ALWAYS out investigating and doing detective stuff, which, to me, proves that we need another detective and/or a new/different CO. St Benson can be the second in command and divvy up the workload and be hands on the day to day, while Sgt. Finn can delegate and direct in the field, etc., while the new CO can do what Cpt. Cragen did- the behind the scenes directing, paperwork, comstat, running interference, etc. That way, St Benson can still hog the spotlight and have a leadership position, all while developing and refining her decision making and leadership role, to help prepare her for her next assignment. That also would help develop the series, so that maybe that could lead her to be in 1PP (which kinda makes me shudder to think about), and have her kinda have SVU as her pet project/her go to unit. As I said, she'd still be able to be melodramatic at SVU and have a majority of the spotlight, but it'd be more realistic, since the writers want to have her out in the field like a "regular" detective AND as a CO. In short, for the love of everything Holy (St Benson included), give us another detective, and/or give us another CO/Captain

I agree. I didn't have a problem with the scene, but the writing. There are ways to handle business diplomatically, while still being badass. Even buttering him up a little would have been tolerable to me. You can go through unofficial channels effectively, and still come across as badass or whatever. I'm not a total expert, but, the way St Benson handled that probably would've shut down their little investigation pretty damn fast; they really didn't do themselves ANY favors, and, probably made it impossible to get anything else done or get any more information. Bravo, writers and St Benson....Bravo.

Overall, the episode wasn't too bad....but, it wasn't too good, either. As has been par for the season, it had a good premise, but, it fell a little flat. Not to be an echo chamber, I found it annoying that, all of the sudden (not really), St. Benson was the voice of reason and what was right by choosing not to lie on the stand; it almost was like she grew a conscience. Browbeating the wife of one of the perps to testify seemed like the typical MO for the season, and bending rules to fit an agenda played into the script. The repeating that New York City is a "Sanctuary City" was annoying as hell. If I tried to play a drinking game by taking even a sip of alcohol for every time someone mentioned "sanctuary city," I'm not sure I'd survive 5 minutes. It just got annoying. On second thought, maybe I SHOULD have played a drinking game....it may have made the episode more bearable. Don't get me wrong, the episode wasn't entirely bad- it had a hot button issue(s) and had cast involvement, which was refreshing. What I found annoying (besides the sanctuary city being repeated), was how one "side" of the hot button issue was painted as being "right" or "good," and the other "side" was painted as being ass backwards and all racist etc. I'm not trying to delve too deep into the political arena with that statement, but it was pretty off putting and just over the top, at least to me. I think I would have felt the same if it were the other way around. I personally would have been more into it if it were a little more grey, as to let the audience come to conclussions, or to maybe be able to reasonable see the other side. As a final note of annoyance, St Benson continually saying: "He's GUILTY" to practically everyone who'd listen really, really irked me, A) their evidence was weak (even if he/they did do it, which they did), so going around saying that ANY perp is guilty before any verdict is premature and VERY unprofessional, especially before someone testifies. B) St. Benson has become judge, jury, and executioner. Again, a perp may have done something, BUT, to go around saying that someone is guilty is just bad juju and bad form. Again, they didn't really have a slam dunk case at that point, and what they had was flimsy, at best, so that really didn't make sense for St Benson to talk to the wife saying that. In that vein, I don't really see how that made the wife suddenly realize what she had to do- she seemed so dead set on defending her husband, but St Benson came to her with a flimsy "he did it, he's guilty, but we don't have strong evidence" deal made her open her eyes. I could see if there was mounting evidence that was beyond reasonable doubt, but that made me roll my eyes. P.S. One last rant- St Benson threatening the ICE agent along with Greasy, I mean Carisi made me seriously shake my head. "I've been doing this a long time." Oh, okay! Let me get my boss! You convinced me! Give me a break. She straight up threatened him, then she admitted it, and he caved in. Yeah, that was TOTALLY believeable. I could see her maybe using some other backdoor way in, but to just use the line of "You're new, I've done this longer than you, blah blah blah yakity shmakity" was weak. Anyway, it was a decent idea that was heavy handed, overly biased, and kind of a parody of what it could have been.

That's just a formality. I think that she has already been canonized.

I was expecting the fake news dude to turn right back around and publish something on his website saying that he was threatened. I'm sure someone like him would have a recording device on him 24/7 (I could be wrong), so he can catch different things. I would love to have that come back and bite St. Benson in the ass. As for the interrogation where she was gripping the window grate, I was expecting an '80s hair band ballad to start playing in the background, as she turned around. Yeah, I said that before, but, come on. There's only so much melodrama guy can take. I literally laughed at that scene, and absolutely couldn't take it seriously; I'm sure the actor who was the perp had a hard time keeping straight face....so, props to him for that. I would've lost it, or have been concerned that maybe she was having a heart attack or something.

All in all, this episode was lukewarm. I think we're being trolled; the writers keep giving us mediocre to bad episodes so we get used to it, so they can continue to slack. Last weeks' episode, along with this weeks' had some pretty good ideas, but just fell flat. There was little to no development of the story or characters- it has been hard to get into any episode so far this season. I should know better than to get my hopes up when there is an interesting premise. Like a few posters have said, it would have bolstered the defense if maybe there was a Bible verse, a web seminar/real life seminar, a web broadcast of a sermon, ANYTHING to back up the Pastor. Don't get me wrong, I am not on their side, but it was weak. I also think that St. Benson gave probably the best sermon the victim has ever heard- I was waiting for a choir to start humming in the background and then start singing the praises of our Lord and Savior, St. Benson, then have dozens of white doves released as the two hugged.

That does sound good. I think the hardest part would be the retirement party; I would LOVE to see all the old faces (as you said), but I think it'd be difficult to write/act it without it being too cheesy/over the top. I like the idea of St. Benson running into Elliot and seeing how happy/less stressed he is after retirement. Throw in how he has gotten "help"- i.e. therapy or whatever, to show how he has grown and has been able to move passed some of the past, and I think that could show St. Benson that there is "hope" after retirement, and that she CAN be happy with what she has, and that there's more than her job.

I just miss the ensemble and the insights. It wasn't always clear who did it, why they did it, if they did it, so on and so forth. There was police work and whatnot, and, while it may not have been a nail biter, very rarely was the perp aready known. Everyone had a job, and it worked to bring the story together.

As much as I hate the Noah in trouble/threatened storyline that they force down out throats, that does sound interesting. Perhaps, maybe St. Benson gets a call (without anyone paying attention, kinda like the episode where Stabler helps find that kidnapped kid), and she goes alone. Elliot follows her, like you said. As a twist, after seeing Noah tied up/saying it hurts, she loses it. She draws her sidearm and two shots ring out at the same time- one is from Elliot, an one from St. Benson. They both go to the station, there's an investigation as to who should be charged. The ME Warner (this would be an awesome way to bring her back!) cannot determine which shot impacted first, and which one is lethal. Dr. Huang is there as well, since he has a history with the two (Elliot and St. Benson) and interviews both. He determines that the shooting(s) is/are justified, since St. Benson has been under stress since she started in SVU, and Elliot was protecting a friend/former co worker. Elliot deduced that Noah was her son after St. Benson talked to Courtney, and he was justified in the shooting. Since it is a grey area, neither is charged after a high profile case. As they leave the courtroom, Elliot glances over to St. Benson and offers t take her out for a coffee, in a plutonic way. She says: "that sounds great. You're buying." He scoffs, and says: "Just like old times. Some things never change." They both let out a relieved laugh and walk off into the sunset, ready for a new chapter.

I doubt this is the case, as it would be a looooong con, but what if the writers/producers/etc are just setting us up? I mean, St. Benson (Peace Be Upon Her) has been getting more and more insufferable over the last 4 or so seasons, and has been bending and breaking all kinds of rules/laws/protocols.....what if they're setting us up for her to fall big time, and have that end the show/her reign of terror? Then, again, maybe she just has a huge ego, and it's spilling over into her work, since she hasn't done much more(movie/tv) work-wise that is really of note. Besides, I don't think the writers are that clever, and I'm sure St. Benson (PBUH) wouldn't allow for that to happen.

I'm really, really thinking that NBC or whomever is looking for reasons to cancel this show. They're taking huge breaks, and the writing is tepid, at best. Not all episodes can be homeruns, but, come on. To me, if there's going to be long breaks, at least use that hiatus to improve writing/scripts/acting.

Say what you will about Amaro, he always struck me as a by the book detective....usually

Is that the one where Scott Bakula (spelling?) cheated on his wife, who had a brain tumor/cancer? That kind of irked me a little, mainly because if another detective did that/let that slide, St. Benson would be all over that detective. I would just like to see her face the music for something, and, as insult to injury, I'd kind of like to see the squad forget about her/do well without her, especially since she seems to hold everyone back and/or take credit for everything good and pawn responsibility for something bad SHE did.

Nice. That would be a nice send off.

Me either, but, at this point, it really wouldn't surprise me. Maybe we should start a pool- a 5 dollar buy-in. If this happens, the winner(s) take all! haha

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you. Since this is all Benson, all the time, and how she takes it, I'm sure he'll be written off in such a way that it'll show just how vested she is in this job, and how this is all she has, and how it'll impact her relationship with Noah. On that note, maybe, just maybe (or, hopefully!), someone will discover/stumble upon him knowing about how she adopted Noah. I vaguely remember them talking about it, and they used the hypothetical tense, about Noah and his family....well, maybe the Real Fake News guy digs deep, makes good on his "threat" about discovering the "truth" about how a detective "getting a kid." When he does, that snowballs; the media latches onto that, a distant relative (who has been looking for him) finds him. A trial is convened for misconduct of an ADA/detective, and it is found out that Barba knew all along and covered it up/didn't pursue it, and he has to resign in disgrace, AND St. Benson has to give up Noah. As much as I like Barba and dislike Noah/Noah stories, that is an episode I would like to see. I would even be somewhat excited to watch that. Edit: Since St. Benson had threatened the Real Fake News guy, that is why he dug deeper, and that comes to light. It's highly unlikely, since she walks on water, but it would be outstanding to see that pop up and bite her in the ass and have some real repercussions. It could also lead to some (shocking, because the writers would actually have to write!) character development and depth.

I don't want to turn this board into an echo chamber, but, I have grown to kind of feel sorry (for lack of better words) for Barba. As mentioned numerous, numerous times, he started out as a pretty damn good character who could win cases. Unfortunately, he has become a casualty of bad/apathetic writing. There have been sparks/glimpses of his "former glory" this season, and this last case seemed to show a little of that, with him kind of "digging deep" and thinking outside the box to come up with the hypnosis deal. Part of me agrees with sockii, and hopes for a merciful exit, so he can leave with a little bit of dignity, and we can see him go before his character gets plastic surgery to look like St. Benson. I REALLY hope that that'll be it- he gets to leave gracefully, and not have some off camera romance with Steven Seagal aka St. Benson. I don't see the writers (or anyone else *cough cough St. Benson cough cough*) "allowing" the character to shine as he once did. At this point, even through some miracle, I think the damage has been done to his character- after going from a pitbull in a tie to a turtle in a cutoff t-shirt, any type of writing to try to turn his character around wouldn't be believable, at least to me. That's a shame and a waste.

That seems to be a common theme for this season- weak cases with little evidence and a weak defense (or, in the drunk rape case, a confession in court),and the case is won. There seems to be little to no arguments from the defense, and the prosecution argument is pretty weak, yet there's been an overwhelming amount of convections. Granted, not every case is a slam dunk, especially on a he said she said case, but it's been pretty weak all season. I think this precedent was set about 2-3 years ago, and has gotten worse. I think the faces St. Benson makes in court are what seal the deal. Maybe the judge just wants to get her out of the court so he won't have to see her make those faces, and figures that "guilty" makes it easier so there won't be a retrial....

Ok, so, I am not taking total credit for this, as I saw a similar thread on IMDB awhile ago, and had been thinking about ways this series could end, or, at least what could be decent ideas for how to wrap up the series. Full disclosure: these aren't all my ideas, as I have seen some of these endings/ideas elsewhere, but I have put some different (I hope) spins on them 1) Perhaps have a retirement party for Benson. As the party is underway, Benson slips out to leave without a fuss, and: She is approached by a victim (or sees a upset victim) while she (Benson) is in the hall trying to leave. She starts to walk back to the party to start the process of gathering information, and "remembers" that she is now retired. She directs the victim to the squad room, where the victim starts talking to Finn. He sees how upset the victim is and starts to comfort them, and happens to look up to see Benson in the hall. They he gives her a knowing look and nod, and she smiles, turns around, and walks away. Benson slips out, and makes it to the street. She sees a young female detective on the sidewalk outside the precinct, looking a little unsure/worried. Benson approaches the detective, and inquires about what's on her mind, and the new detective says that she has been transferred to SVU and is unsure how to feel about it/how she'll do. Benson gives a few pointers/some reassurance. The new detective is relieved, and asks if Benson works there, and Benson reflects, and says: "no" then walks away. The camera then follows her closely for a few steps, then pans out to show her getting lost in the crowd. After one of these, after some time (a few months/years) she is sitting on the boardwalk in the Little Russia district (where they investigated a crime in the earlier seasons a few times), where she is sitting outside a café. She is people watching, and is not really paying attention, and Stabler walks up and sits down. She looks over to him, and he smiles, and says: "so, how's retirement?" or something along those lines. Someone mentioned something about Noah not having any extended family that would want him in an earlier thread.....I know it's a long shot, and it may be too late now, since he has been adopted by Benson, but I would LOVE to see someone come out of the woodwork and claim him. When/if that happens/happened, that would be a perfect time to see Benson really contemplate retirement/leaving SVU. As much as I hate the Noah/Benson stories, it might be nice to wrap it up in maybe a two part episode that explains that an aunt/uncle/grandma/grandpa had spent years looking for him (which would explain the long time that she's had him) and sue for custody. After she loses custody, she is drained, and decides to hang it up to reflect/pursue other passions. Finn gets promoted, and the show ends with a ceremony celebrating his promotion and her retirement. 2) There's a case from a very early episode where the squad is looking for an old perp (so they think.) It ends up that it's the perps' grandchild/protégé, and they enlist the help of Stabler, who worked the case originally. They get help from a new psychologist, who was once a suspect (Michael Pitt.) They keep Stabler around for 5-7 episodes, just to pick his brain, and the psychologist hangs around too. He (the psychologist) hangs around to learn the ropes and to help catch perps. He and Stabler seem to bury the hatchet, and get along well...the entire time the crimes that they thought were being committed by the old perp (actually his protégé) were actually being committed by/with the psychologist. While he had turned his life around for awhile, he had a relapse after being brought into the SVU squad. This shakes the squad, and calls for Benson to retire or lose her pension, etc. A few months later, Benson is seen sitting on a park bench (think: Aqualung) in the park. She seems a lot less stressed and is enjoying life. Her phone rings, she answers it, and is surprised to find that it s Calvin. The conversation is brief, but the audience can hear that he finished up medical school, and is setting up a rehab facility in the city. Feeling vindicated that at least one thing in her life paned out for the better, she congratulates him, and says she'll visit, then hangs up. She then gets up, and walks away, feeling good that something in her life turned out ok. 3) Benson retires, and just leaves. No one ever mentions her again. Finn gets promoted, and the squad gets back on track. The show goes on for 2 more years, with new blood coming in every once in awhile. Finn retires, and goes to Florida, and the last scene is him, sitting on beach with a mixed drink, relaxing and loving life. 4) Benson finally has to pay the piper for her actions, and she is ousted. She has her pity party and feels bad for herself, but the squad still functions without her. I got nothin for this.... Anyways, that's just a few things off the top of my head. What are some other ideas?