Darrenbrett

Yes, I want to see the fall of the Soviet Union - but I'd also like more discussion about the conflicts and corruption leading up to it. I don't want it to be just like - poof! I want process. And I want Philizabeth to have some recognition around the differences between the ideals they signed up for, and the real-world corruption that is rotting their Union from the inside-out. And, very importantly, I want some serious soul-searching - especially from Liz. I want her to really come to terms with what she's done for the sake of the cause - often with blind faith and obedience. I want to see them both come out of this - but there has to be some deep and gut-renching soul-searching in the process around the means they justified on the path towards their desired ends.

I actually really liked the scene, and the dialog, when Paige accused Liz of not answering her question. That felt real. That felt like, not just a generation gap - but a cultural gap. Paige, thoroughly Americanized, expected a response about personal feelings. Elizabeth, for just a moment, gave her a dumbfounded look that said, "I just answered your question". I like these awkward scenes where Liz is trying to connect with Paige, but can't quite get past their vast differences in culture-shaping. Feels very authentic to me. Also, the way Kerri purses her lips, nods, pauses... before answering Paige's questions, is just so golden. I just love it. There is so much going on in those few seconds. I would love a video montage of JUST those moments.

Now that Kerri and Matthew have had their baby (congrats to them!), remind me, when does filming for next season begin? Just curious how long a break they get before having to jump back into the drama - literally.

My first thought when I read this was: ????????????????????????????????????????? My second thought was: ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree with others who pointed out that Tim's behavior after his recent scare in Africa is different. He did come across more thoughtful; less smug; more humble in this episode. Which makes me wonder all the more: where exactly are the showrunners going with his character? He seems like much less of an imminent threat now. And that being the case, and assuming it stays the case, it seems the Centre is content to let it all be. I still feel like his character and his role in the story has taken a strange ziggzaggy trajectory. The showrunners have talked about how the story threads often go in directions they themselves don't expect. This seems to be one of those situations. Although in this particular case it has me scratching my head a little bit. Not sure where it's going. And not sure it's clear to the showrunners either. We shall see.

That's a very common notion, yes. Many mainline churches, for example, don't take the Adam and Even Eden stories to be literal depictions of history - but allegories - representational of abstract theological truths. The same goes for Noah and the Ark, the resurrection of Jesus, etc. One of my degrees is in Biblical history, so I'm pretty familiar with this stuff. Church movements that have followed the postmodern trajectory of interpretation don't look to the Bible as a rule-book, or strict, once-and-for-all manual for Christian living like evangelicals do. It's sometimes curious to hear the two parties (pre-modern churches and postmodern churches) talking to each other about the Bible (or reality, for that matter) because they tend to mean completely different things while using the very same words. The overarching worldviews are very different.

But please note my point about progressive theology and Bible studies. Bible studies tend to happen in more theologically conservative churches, where there is a more literal interpretation. In postmodern churches, like the Unitarian Church and other mainline expressions, heavy Bible focus is not very common. Thirdly, to sistermagpie's point, the weird mix of Christian-ese just seems not very thought through. From a plot point of view, it's much more interesting for Paige to fall in with an evangelical group - because that really flies in the face of P and E's mentality and ideology. And at first, when we saw Paige reading her Bible in her room, that seemed to be what they were aiming for. Then all of a sudden the church got really postmodern and progressive. It just comes across as incoherent and a little sloppy. Which, as I said already, I notice happens fairly often when it comes to how religion is portrayed on television.

For the record, I personally wasn't questioning whether Pastor Tim is admirable or not. I was merely pointing out that he's not a realistic character, as it pertains to the context of American Christianity as it really exists. As I pointed out, there are certainly churches and pastors on either end of the spectrum, but Tim's church treads a middle ground that, to me, comes across as suspiciously untenable and unrealistic. Churches that are heavy into progressive social justice issues, and would consider it good conscience to give safe harbor to known spies, are not the same pastors who lead and expect their congregants to be highly conversant in the Bible - mainly because if they're progressive like that, they're post-literal when it comes to theological interpretation. Thirdly, I certainly don't believe for a second that there is one definition of American Christianity - far from it; it really is a pretty broad spectrum. However, there are still points along that spectrum where churches tend to converge, and none of the points I'm aware of (in real life) fit Tim and his church.

One little pet peeve to express here: I love, love, love the show; love the characters. But Pastor Tim... he just doesn't line up with any brand of American Christianity I've come across. The comment he made to Liz: "none of that matters" - in reference to her not believing in God, prayer, faith... followed by his comment "All that matters is how we treat each other". Again, nice notion. Very progressive and humanistic. Not particularly believable for many strands of American Christianity I've experienced - and I've experienced a lot of the spectrum. Sure, there are the very liberal, mainline elements of Christianity out there - but other things he's said - about his reliance on Jesus and the Bible and such - tell me he's not in that vein. But neither does he fit an evangelical mould either - too liberal and socially progressive for that. In other words, he doesn't really fit any vein. And I often find this with religious characters on television. They're too often either caricatures or simply untenable.

I agree it's a good strategy. But I don't know that Stan is sophisticated enough to play it that way. He's a little too straight ahead for that. I think it's Oleg that will end up initiating contact in the future - because he'll remember the conversation, and see a fellow human being in Stan. And that leaves open the possibility of growth in Stan at a later point - which feels potentially satisfying to me.

Re: the Stan and Oleg conversation, I don't think, as some have suggested, that it was really about declaring him/Oleg the enemy and walking away. I actually think that moment was supposed to be about Stan being human. He didn't make a lot of sense; he kind of bumbled his way through the conversation (which was more of a speech), and then said - importantly - that in light of all the people who've been lost (also by Stan's hands, he admitted) he didn't want Oleg on his conscience too. After the handshake and the departure, the look on Oleg's face told me he recognized some common humanity in Stan. And that will actually serve to solidify that relationship - even if it goes cold in the short term.

I don't think anything E says to Paige in the near future is going to alleviate Paige's mind from going to all sorts of tricky places. Because, one - she's a teenager. And two - because that's the more interesting direction for the story to go, anyway. Remember, it is a show. And conflict is good and necessary for dramatic tension. And, gosh darnit, things were just getting a little too "Brady" in the Jennings' household of late.

Just when it looked like Paige was settling in to make the best of her bizarre family situation, she gets the shock and awe treatment of seeing Rambo-mom in action. The pacifist story-line they told her is going to take some major tweaking now. Should be fun!

I have really enjoyed reading and posting in this forum. The dialog about plot and character (and the 80s!) is always interesting. Alas, an overzealous moderator has soured the experience for me. I really wish people wouldn't abuse their ability to control what is written. Moderation in today's internet is absolutely necessary, but it's a power that should be wielded with humility and discretion. Here it appears that to make even a pointed remark about an important cultural issue, like sexism, is verboten; at least that's the case for one particular moderator - who refused to re-consider his deletion of my comment when I asked him about it. For the record, the comment that was deleted involved me stating that women are held up as sexual objects in media more so than men. Furthermore, apparently there's no process by which one can ask that a particular moderator's actions be examined. Alas, it's the iron fist. Be well, everyone.

Yes. This. In an age of religious terrorism, a philosophy that believes in any means towards a desired end is no longer palatable. During the days of the Cold War, however, there was a different narrative at play. And BOTH sides really believed the good of the world was at stake, and would only come out right if THEIR side won, no matter HOW it happened.

One thing that really got under my skin in this episode was when Pastor Tim had the nerve to question Philip re: his own daughter, suggesting that they all get together "to see where they are". Now, admittedly, this is an unusual situation. But for a guy without kids to suggest the parents "come in" to talk about their own family relationship... man, serious overstepping of boundaries in my book. And I've seen "spiritual" leaders overstep bounds like that often in life. They tend to really overestimate their influence and place in people's lives. In other words: they suffer from a case of assumed divine entitlement. And I say this as a very spiritual person. Anyway, re: the show, let's just say that if the pastor were to suffer an unfortunate accident in the near future, I wouldn't be terribly disappointed :).

Agreed. If the show-runners were to NOT have Elizabeth take off her clothes very often, simply for fear it would be interpreted as gratuitous, then that would be poor writing. There's a reason why honey-trapping was employed so often by both sides - because, in reality it worked fairly often, in comparison to other techniques. But it certainly didn't work all the time, either. And now feels like a good juncture in the show to explore a honey-trap situation that goes sideways.

If you think women, as a general rule, reduce men to physical objects the same way men do, then you're living on a different planet than the rest of us. An exception doesn't disprove the rule, my friend. Call a spade a spade. Doing so helps us all move forward in a more evolved way.

Seriously, that's your question? On social media, that's 80% of what the men manage to say - "Wow, Kerri is SO hot!". As a guy, it's really embarrassing. The women make constructive, insightful comments about plot and character, and the men resort to commenting on Kerri's looks, or how other women on the show don't compare to her physically. Again, embarrassing. So please, we don't need more of that here. Okay, carry on, everybody.

Another fantastic episode. While Elizabeth went through with her "mission", she obviously had grave misgivings about it. Once again, a little more ice came off the queen. Those damn things called "emotions" are creating all sorts of conflict in her. I was pretty young when The Day After aired, but I do remember it. And I do remember a somber mood in our culture around it. I can also remember being a young teenager and feeling like nuclear war was a very real possibility - and with it the knowledge that it would not be small. If it happened it would be a civilization-changing event - because both sides had enough nukes to annihilate everyone a thousand times over - and both sides so gravely mistrusted the other. Remember Sting's "Russians"? That's what we were left with: A hope that common humanity and love for family would save us from the oblivion knocking on the door.