simplyme

I assume by arguing, GenL means not being civil or beating a topic into the ground. There's a point where you just agree to disagree and move on to something else. You know, like when your grandad starts on one of those harangues and you kind of go, "Uh huh. Hey, how bout them (insert sports team here)?" Only the Survivor version. ;) I'll defend Sandra as a deserving winner. Heck, I just watched that finale and reunion tonight. One point she made in TC is that because she didn't have numbers, she was the one making sure at every tribal that her torch stayed lit. Her social game was more apparent and more palatable to the Heroes, who made up the majority of the jury. At the time when they voted, the Heroes saw Parvati as somewhat riding Russell's coat tails, even though as viewers we know she didn't (and the villains knew she didn't, but they were only 4 votes and Sandra had Courtney's due to her loyalty). But from their questions and comments to Parv, that stood out to me tonight. The Heroes didn't feel that Sandra had controlled the game, but she told them several times (and they acknowledged) that she had done what she could without removing herself from the game, and their own dumb asses kept screwing up. So she just kept herself in the game. So overall, Russell completely screwed up his social game, and Parvati, admittedly already at a disadvantage with some of the Heroes, didn't distinguish her game enough from Russell's so that the Heroes could give her credit for the moves she made. They couldn't tell what he did versus what she did. Sandra sold herself the best to the make up of the jury. That's what makes a winner.

I still maintain that most of the time, the way a juror votes is the same as their answer to the question, "Which of these people do I least mind losing Survivor to?" In that sense it's very much a game about both the juror's ego and the social games each F2/F3 castaway has played. ETA: I am totally avoiding laundry.

But peach, Bob built a chair! Even if he sat there at FTC and answered the question "What decisions did you make in this game?" with "I really didn't make any." And he almost lost to someone socially inept who had managed to piss off absolutely everyone in the game multiple times! But he was good at challenges and he reminded Sugar of her dad and he built that chair! Okay. Yeah. It's probably Bob for me, too, despite holding the same belief that if you can get the jury to vote for you, you win. There is no deserve. In the case of Gabon, though, there's a decent chance that had it been possible to give the million dollars to a random gorilla, the jury would have done that. Possibly unanimously. As for Michelle, she appeared to play a good social game. Everyone liked her. I don't know that it was a game that was particularly easy to show, though we did see her doing things like listening to Nick and then saying something like she was willing to let people think she was just a pretty face and they were using her. I think Aubry was unlucky in the sense that she was thrust into conflict earlier and more often than Michelle due to TCs, and the more conflict you're in, the more likely it is for people to dislike you. But Michelle played a superior social game, which is what gave her the win over Aubry and Tai. (She also won the final IC and its advantage and made the correct call on which juror to remove: Aubry's biggest advocate.) I can see why she won, even though I really liked Aubry.

I view Colton like I view my ninth grade English teacher. It was a bad experience, but any time I meet someone who went to my high school or had a child who went there or who taught there during the twenty-five years she taught, I have an instant connection with them.

I think Cirie and Cao Boi are both awesome. I have no problem with reconciling that fact. Cirie came up with the 3-2-1 to blindside someone. Cao Boi dreamt up Plan Voodoo to expose and flush the original HII, which didn't even exist in Cirie's season. I love Cirie for her ability to see opportunities and talk people into them. I love Cao Boi for being himself and showing that there is such diversity even within ethnic groups. One of my favorite Survivor discussions was between Yul, Becky, and Cao Boi. Cao Boi wanted to tell jokes that Yul and Becky found offensive because they reinforced ethnic stereotypes. Cao Boi enjoyed telling them. It was so interesting, because I felt like I understood both sides to some degree. To me, Becky and Yul were very aware that there are people who really believe stereotypes and wanted not to feed that in any way. To me, Cao Boi felt it was more important to be able to laugh at yourself, and he'd accepted that there were idiots in the world and wasn't going to let them change him. At least, that's what a white woman got out of watching it. It was something that I might not be able to truly identify with racially, but I can grasp it academically and I identified with in other ways. Things that I might say sarcastically to my brother, for example, that I know will make him laugh, but if someone who doesn't know us overhears... It just sounds bad because they don't understand all the context. (ETA: This isn't exactly the same, and I'm aware of that. But in some ways it feels like there's a category of "things you can say only to certain people or boy, is that shit gonna get misunderstood." How and why and ramifications might vary, but most people have had this realization at some point. I hope.) I watched it a long time ago as it aired and haven't rewatched, but I think it's worth a watch. Whether you think it's a good or bad season will likely depend on a few factors, one being how well you take watching the men implode. For me, it's like Cagayan in that they certainly had the ability to do something if they ever got their act together at the same time, but they don't. Part of that is the men themselves, and part of that is the charisma of the eventual winner. Downsides: Some truly noxious personalities, headed by Colton. He just gets worse and worse. Definitely feel free to hate-watch his ass, possibly with strong alcohol. Alicia should have been bitch-slapped a few times too. Someone surgically removed Christina's spine. Upsides: If you enjoy watching arrogant people who are dumb enough to segragate themselves and actually SAY things like "We're the alpha males" get taken down hard, it has that. Kim is boss at strategy, social game, and challenges. Sabrina, Jay (once you get past the voice), Mike (was that his name?) were cool. Troyzan ranges from funny to omg, just sit down, dude. Tarzan pontificates with words he misuses at Tribal Council, and his social skills are, um, questionable. (At one point he essentially asks Chelsea if she dislikes him because he's a plastic surgeon and she's angry at her plastic surgeon for her boob job.) Leif is a little person who I believe is a stunt person irl. Monica and Jonah are there. So there's some good stuff in there. If nothing else, the cast should get some credit for not outright killing Colton. I sure wanted to.

Oh, I'm not knocking you. I'm sorry if it at all came across that way. I'm just explaining why I think she was brought back, especially since several people mentioned it. And I can see finding Candice boring. She doesn't show a whole lot of emotion most of the time. I think most of us find her shining emotional moment to be flipping off Brad Culpepper in BvW. As to Laura, I loved watching Laura in challenges. I don't know that she necessarily deserves a third shot because while she's amazing at challenges, her social game isn't very good. Then again, I could say the same for Ozzy and he's played four times, and her own daughter Ciera has played three. I'd much rather see Laura than Ciera. (Pleeeease enough with Ciera.) Most if all, though, I want to see new people right now. For God's sake. Also...As far as I can tell whether or not someone is brought back has a lot to do with how production feels about them, not what they did or didn't do or how viewers feel. I think Game Changers (insert hysterical laughter here) should have proved that. I mean, Caleb? C'mon. Production brought him back because they thought he had a cross-over fanbase from BB and Probst liked him, not because "He almost died for Survivor!" was game-changing. (If it was, Russell Swan is wondering what happened to his call.)

Candice was invited back because she was an absolute force in challenges. In that cling-to-a-pole-while-two-people-try-to-pry-you-off challenge, she was a monster. She also clung to the totem pole in Get a Grip for 2 hours and 15 minutes through a rain storm to make Ozzy earn his first ever victory in that immunity challenge. And until she mutinied, most people on both tribes seemed to like her (although Becky started voicing reservations about trusting her). My read is that she didn't feel like anyone had her back at Aitu. Penner, the person she knew the longest and was supposedly closest to, was talking to Yul a lot. She didn't trust Penner. She knew Yul and Becky were a solid two. Back at Raro, though, she felt Adam and Parvati would have her back and she could make inroads with the others. When the chance to switch came, why wait and try to explain why she didn't move when she had the chance? She didn't expect Penner to follow, or the mutiny to bond the Aitu 4 and motivate them, or for Yul to sway Penner with the idol. From her perspective, her plan made sense for her game, and she didn't do it out of malice. But from the viewer perspective, I think it made her unintentionally come off as a mean girl, and after that she had a huge target on her. I don't know if she would have mutinied if she'd realized that Penner would too and that what was left of Aitu would HATE her. I mean, it was a pretty critical mistake to make, but I can totally see how it's a logical move to make for her, especially in the 10 seconds she's allowed to think about it. She's obviously been thinking about joining back up with Adam and Parv, so why not then? Five seconds left! I rewatched Cook Islands recently, and I admit I found a new appreciation for Candice in there. I also found Adam and Nate a lot more amusing on rewatch, and in the earlier episodes I took great delight in trying to read Brad's face. There's one scene where JP is being a jerk and he and Adam just kind of glance at each other like, "Am I the only one not loving this guy? No?" Then they glance away. Honestly, rewatching made me wish Adam had wandered back at some point. He was smart. He was funny. He was athletic. He was certainly better at the social game than Penner was, and I don't just think that's because of their ages. Everyone who meets Penner knows very shortly that Penner is all about Penner and advancing in the game. Adam hides that better.

Heh. This is awesome. @MrYunis is the yin to my yang (or vice versa)! I think we appreciate different characters and styles of play. I really liked Natalie White from Samoa and think her game is undervalued. I can see some awesome discussions in the future. :) @KimberStormer tends to get stuck in the role of defending JT, who I dislike heartily, so if you're a JT fan she may welcome the help.

I also have to confess that some of the seasons I haven't seen. Pearl Islands was my first, and I loved it. I've recently gone back and tried (four times) to watch Borneo and failed. Miserably. It's like, "Wth is this documentary on bumbling fools we cast adrift in Africa, and is Greg a serial killer or the first person playing a character?" I think the farthest I got was through three or four episodes, but it felt like it took twenty hours. (Honestly, it's the same suffocating feeling of boredom I got watching the The Age of Innocence, my sis-in-law's favorite movie. The one that when it ended, I said to my bro, "How did you stay conscious? That was god awful boring." His response, "Uh, I only finished because I thought you were enjoying it. That was painful." We now admit when we're bored to avoid such torture.) Anyways, I'm relieved @MissEwa didn't make it through Borneo either. Maybe they'll still let me have my Survivor fan badge. I've watched and enjoyed most of Africa, though I stalled right before the finale and just haven't gone back. I should finish, but I usually find the final episodes to be one of the most boring, especially if I already know who wins, so I'm finding it hard to muster the interest when there are other options. The rest of the season was good though, and the location was amazing.

Oh my God. From the linked article: I'm now terrified of the "transformational journey" they want these people to take. I want the Ivettes and Tonys of the world back, you bastards, not some mocked-up story arc you create by making some drama llama shave their head.

For some reason I'm now picturing Gordon Ramsey from Hell's Kitchen hosting this.

For some reason, Cook Islands ends up being my favorite. It isn't just the mutiny and the Aitu Four, but everyone that season had their own idea of how to play the game, and they played hard. Even though Ozzy won four of the last five immunity challenges, there were SO many people that season that were physical and mental competitors: Parvati, Yul, Candice, Adam, Nate, Jenny. And Cao Boy literally dreamed up Plan Voodoo, a plan that would expose and flush the hidden immunity idol. So even though I usually talk about other seasons more, Cook Islands (and Yul) get my Favorite Season love. I've always felt like Fiji had a lot of potential, but that Haves vs. Have Nots thing was brutal. That and boy, there were a few toxic personalities that season that stayed around way too long. I'm looking at you, Rocky and Lisi. I loved Micronesia, but there was a lot of dead weight on that cast. Pitting fans against favorites generally ends up with very few memorable fans for a reason. Most end up being fodder. That said, the Black Widows played a great game. Cagayan... I've decided I'm going to have to see if a rewatch helps me clarify my feelings on it. It was an exciting season, but it was also incredibly frustrating to watch. I can't tell if Tony wins because he's brilliant (but paranoid), or if he wins because people are stupid and he rides his idols, especially the never-should-have-come-back Tyler Perry immunity idol. There's a reason they got rid of that type of immunity. And Woo... Oh my God. Could you be any dumber? Taking Tony instead of Kass to F2? So I want to rewatch and see what solidifies for me on rewatch. (Almost done with rewatching S20, so it'll be a while. Our rewatch schedule got postponed due to a neck issue. S20 is like the season that never ends for us because of that.) Also, welcome to the forum, @MrYunis! You sure started posting with a good 'un.

The thing is that if any of the women had screwed up their part, Erik would have kept his necklace. Yes, he was naive. No, it wouldn't have worked with someone like James. But the fact that they even considered this and then pulled it off is amazing. When Cirie first floats the idea, Natalie's response is, "Who would do that? I feel stupider even listening to this idea." But Cirie sells her on trying it, they hash out how to do it, and they set up Amanda and Parvati as the foils at Tribal Council. They emotionally work Erik over, and he caves. That TC is both beautiful and cruel. To me, Cirie sees the opportunities where others don't and she knows how to work them. For me, it's not about Erik being colossally naive, but Cirie realizing this and convincing people to take advantage of it. That's why I rank her so highly at the social gameplay. That's my take, at least. It's completely valid to see Erik as an ant, too. :)

Since I'm rewatching with someone who didn't start watching Survivor until MvsGx, I don't feel I can skip seasons. I think that's ended up being a good thing for me because I've rewatched seasons I probably would have passed on and gotten different things out of them the second time through. Courtney Yates, for example. I knew I liked her, but rewatching both China and HvV solidified my love. She's terrible at most challenges, but she knows exactly who she is and provides some great color commentary. She also knows exactly how to handle Probst when he's pushing things in a certain direction at TC, like harping about Courtney still being there in HvV while Rob-the-challenge-beast is gone. Her response was something like, "Well, Jeffrey, I didn't vote for Rob. I didn't vote for Tyson either. They were my allies and they're gone because they were not members of the dominant alliance." I also didn't realize how good of a game Cirie played in Micronesia until I rewatched. She talked people into the Ozzy blindside. She came up with the idea of Erik giving his immunity necklace to Natalie and helped coach people on how to pull it off. She lost the final immunity challenge to Amanda. Had she won it, I feel like she wins the season. Rewatching Tocantins was... interesting. I came away much less impressed with both JT and Stephen than I had been the first time. For all the talk we do of Stephen reigning in JT, he really doesn't except for one vote where JT stupidly considers voting Sierra out instead of Tyson. They both spend astonishing amounts of time talking about how noble Coach is and how he plays the game without lying, even after Sierra calls him out and Coach is caught in a lie. I ended up concluding that 1) JT must be much more charming in person, and 2) much of Timbira was so freaking dysfunctional that anyone who acted like a leader would get their vote.

Good catch, @Ms Blue Jay . I missed this. In support of @meep.meep's point, I offer the words of Mark Twain (1835-1910): "There are some things that can beat smartness and foresight? Awkwardness and stupidity can. The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot." I would argue that there's a difference between stupidity and ignorance, of course. You may be a brilliant person in many ways and yet be ignorant in how to use a sword. But the point stands that amateurs are scary because they're unpredictable.

I mean, I can't stand JT and couldn't even during Tocantins (his supposedly brilliant win), but some of his decisions are defendable from his perspective of protecting himself and his position in the game. Even I, the great JT-hater, can see that. Things like targeting Tom and keeping James may not have been in the tribe's best interest, but it was in JT's best interest. Tom was a physical force who wasn't loyal to JT, didn't take orders from JT, and thought too much for JT. If JT gets rid of James, that leaves his alliance of three tied with three non-alliance members for control of the Heroes. That said, overall, yeah, I think his actions (plus Rupert being Ruperty, and James being his usual alpha male self, and Amanda being useless) pretty much damned the Heroes. But players are allowed to play the game for themselves, and people can like who they like. It makes for a more interesting discussion that way for sure. :)

I feel the same. If you're going to make it a puzzle, make it a puzzle. If it's going to be physical, make it physical. Occasionally combining is fine, but every time is boring.

This is why Survivor is so awesome. People can have completely different reactions to the same player. To me, JT is the giant albatross hung around the neck of the Heroes' tribe, slowly dragging them to their doom, and Candice and Tom were the brief, flickering hopes for logic and reason. Tom is taken out by JT, and Candice is so disgusted with her own tribe (and also knows that if she doesn't flip, she's #5, maybe #6 behind Sandra) that she would rather take out a Hero and take her chances with the villains. I also think discounting Sandra's moves because they didn't work and saying if they had, she would have been voted out is not accurate. This is Sandra. Her attempts and her idol play showed she was playing and gave her jury votes. If she had succeeded in removing Russell from the game, I'm not sure she gets removed. She's weak in challenges, she's often good at pushing the right buttons, and she knows how to make other people a target. There's a reason Coach went home instead of Courtney. So I think her game is undervalued. Russell played a good strategic game but completely mauled the social aspect (again.) Parvati had her double idol play, which was brilliant, but she also remained in the game because Russell gave her his idol and nudged Tyson. So to me, I can see strengths and weaknesses in every person's game and not be distraught in how it turned out.

Actually, that's exactly the type of challenge I was referring to earlier that I hate and I don't think should ever be a Survivor challenge because if one person on a tribe knows the strategy and that tribe goes in the correct position, they may as well have flipped a coin. As to how likely that is to happen, I never saw that season, but I know the strategy. That's an old bar game usually played with matchsticks (sometimes called Twenty-one). It's a form of Nim a mathematical game of strategy. People with puzzle or strategy backgrounds (and there's usually one or two per season) could quite easily be familiar with it.

According to one of his THs, Colby also got chased around (and outside) the shelter by Sugar, who had realized she didn't have a protector in the game and decided on him for the role. Apparently ignoring her, taking his arms back from her (which she grabbed and wrapped around herself), and getting up and walking away didn't work. She just kept following him, plopping down next to him, and getting cozy again. And talking. Apparently Colby is a lot nicer than I am (to the point of doormat), because I would have point blank told her to keep her hands to herself and shut it so I could sleep.

Unfortunately, none of the libraries I have access to own copies or have any sort of streaming copy available. (I admit that as a former public librarian, I checked this-both my local libraries and the fairly large library where I used to work. They all own Call the Midwife, though. *mutters*) Ah, well. We have to work our way through a bunch more before I start worrying about the ones I don't have access to yet. ;)

I'm currently watching S20 HvV, and at one point Jeff is snarking at thr villains for how dysfunctional they are and he says, "...and you have one of the worst shelters ever built on Survivor." At which point Jerri calmly raises her hand and says with a faint smile, "Oh, I was in that shelter." I cracked up. I couldn't even explain how bad that shelter was to SimplyMom, who hasn't seen S8 (sadly not available via Amazon Prime). For some reason, that epic shelter failure is one of the highlights of the season for me.

Oh, it is impressive. But my big gripe with "Did they control the game?" is that the ability to control the game depends on who is cast. Rob is very charismatic, very take charge, very strategic, good at challenges, good socially, and yet he couldn't control the game in HvV. He correctly identified the threats, but they out maneuvered him. So rather than looking at it as "Did they control the game?", I try to appreciate as much as possible the position each person was in and how they used it to their advantage. Because playing a good enough under the radar game to make it to the end and win can take a lot of skill, too, but it doesn't get as much glory. It bothers me that Sophie gets dismissed so often. She always knew what she was doing. She won three individual immunities, including beating Ozzy to earn the last one so he could be voted out and stay out (it was a redemption island season). But IMO partially because so many people were unlikable that season and partially because she was just quiet and effective, she's underrated. Ranking Adam above her makes my eye twitch. I thought Todd was a pretty good winner. He had his flaws (when he got paranoid and Amanda corralled him), but he had a great social game overall and he killed that FTC. Amanda played a great game and then turned into that Sadmanda caricature at FTC that she's pretty much been ever since where she's wishywashy, babbles about morals, cries, and clings to the alpha males. I want the old Amanda back. That Amanda would have kicked Todd's ass in FTC and taken home the million. I think there was a doppelganger switch the morning of day 39 or something. Maybe the real Amanda is trapped in some Chinese temple, muttering about biting apples. I can't figure out what to think about Tony. I feel like most seasons, his tribe would have voted him off for being a paranoid, controlling, in-your-face nutball, but it worked for him. Or his idols and a cautious tribe did. So he's either just crazy or crazy like a fox, and darned if I know which.

Well, you know how it is. She didn't almost die for Survivor. *eyeroll*

IMO two of the problems I have with their ranking system is that it seems to weigh too heavily 1) how much a person controlled the game and 2) winning challenges. I don't think either really gets you the game. That tends to be determined by a solid strategy based on recognition of one's standing in the tribe and good social game. I mean, what about a person who knows they can't outright control the game but manages to subtly affect it and place themselves where they need to be to win? Natalie White, for example, read her tribe well and knew exactly how she had to play to win: be the nonthreatening female with the great social game. She was responsible for getting Galu to vote Erik out, and he was her advocate at the end. But she ends up penalized in the rankings for not winning challenges and not being the obvious driver of the game. However, had she tried to take control early on, she would have been voted out, and later in the game it would have lost her votes. Also, I am seriously bored by the lack of anything on TV, so I have been overanalyzing Survivor. My apologies for the spate of recent long posts.