Roseanna

Mary didn't for the title because she simply couldn't get it, but for Cora's fortune to be taken off from the entail which would have make her an heiress whom a duke would have wanted to marry but destroyed Downton Abbey. What kind of person that makes her? Robert was right by saying that if he had made fortune, then it would be right that his children would inherit it, but because he had inherited Downton, he must pass it to the heir in a good condition according to the rules. In addition, it would have broken his heart to know that after his death the next earl would be without Downton. As for Mary trying to take his son's inheritance, what kind of mother does that? An earl who isn't of age is no problem at all. In practice, the situation would be the same as now when Mary manages the estate. The problem is rather that because of Matthew's testament, George must share power with his mother until she dies. And knowing Mary, it wouldn't be sharing power but Mary commanding his son until her dying day. I am perhaps the only one who thinks that Matthew's testament was very stupid for it means that inheritance taxes must be payed two times. Matthew would have acted wiser by making Mary only a guardian. But of course he didn't know the death day, nor the sex of his eldest child. If she had been a girl who couldn't be an earl, Matthe's testament would have destroyed Downton in the same way as taking Cora's fortune away from the entail would have done (Robert lost Cora's fortune and instead Matthew invested the inheritance he got from Lavinia's father to the estate). Unfortunately we do know the future. George will fight in WW2, so there is no surety whether he will ever be an earl.

ZoloftBlob, that was before Robert had paid the blackmailer and made her sign a confession. After that it was unlikely that she should cause any trouble for she had no personal reason to do it. As for the papers, they must have much better recent scandals than a widow sleeping with an unmarried man in the past.

Many people in this forum have insisted that Edith should have told Bertie about Marigold. But if the characters of the show behaved as they should, their story would have no interest whatsoever. They *must* make mistakes, both because of the story and because that's what all people do and we can't feel sympathy for flawless characters as we aren't such ourselves. Of course those mistakes must be somehow understood even if not always accepted by us. If one understands the period, it's easy to understand that Edith hesitates. For it is by no means certain that a man would accept that his future wife has a child born out of wedlock. Edith probably thought that in case Bertie took it badly, she wanted to collect so many memories of their love as possible. Of course it was selfish as she didn't think that postponing the revelation she would hurt Bertie more, but considering Edith that had had so few experiences of love it was natural. That she wanted to tell before making the engagement official, is clear by the fact that she tried to stop Bertie making the announcement. It is really naive to believe that all would have been well if only Edith had trusted Bertie. She couldn't really know how Bertie would react before the issue is handled in reality. A man can *seem* to be good, but his real character can be tested only by action. And ultimately, it is tested by his capacity to forgive her mistake as she will forgive his. On the other hand, what is considered good and decent is different in different ages. In the real life it would be quite natural that a Marquis, however regretting losing love, would take back his proposal of marriage to "the woman with a past" that could cause a scandal if leaked into the press. In a sense, it would have been easier if Bertie had not become a Marquis - then it would be only their own matter which nobody else would have been interested in. Therefore it was a total anachronism that Edith's family was enthusiastic about her becoming a Marchioness. What was accurately in the period *and* social class was the earlier scene when Bertie says that he has a little to offer and Edith says that she isn't worth it. As for Mary, as Talbot knew that he wasn't marrying a virgin but a widow, even considering the period she had no reason to tell all about her past because it's extremely unlikely that either affair would cause scandal any more. Besides, all sensible people must realize even at that time that a beautiful thirty-something woman with a fried marriage can have had affairs as well as man have had, and it's best for the future happiness not to know the details including names (Mary and Talbot would probably meet Gillingham and his wife in the future).

Andorra wrote that Mary "needed a man who was willing to stay at Downton". For that there was an obvious choice: Tom with whom she could share the management of the estate. But I didn't favor the idea: they were acting together well, but like siblings or best friends, not lovers. The problem was that what is a good romance in the show (not necessarily in the real life) demands problems and obstacles. They can be outer circumstances (social differences, relationship with another), but at the best they are psychological (the pair has such characters and values that they make fatal mistakes like Mary and Matthew did). Also, we must fervently hope for their union but it can't succeed too easily. Gillingham was a too suitable suitor - there was no real obstacle to win. With Blake the obstacle was removed when Gillingham revealed that he would inherit a title and besides, if he didn't, it would be a repetition of Matthew 1st season. With Talbot the obstacle was whether could Mary overcome her fear of losing also him in the accident - but it was missed in the solution. In addition, Talbot was too pushy both in his proposal and having a licence. In the phone call he thought only of his own "carpe diem" and had no understanding how Mary felt because of Matthew's accident. Not a good husband material. And like Violet said, marriage is a long business - one must not rush into it, and it is entirely against Mary's character, too. After all we have seen, I think that Mary doesn't really *need* a new husband. For she had already had all she needed: wealth, position, child, affection, companion (Tom). Only one thing was really missing, sex, and that she could have got during the week end parties and holidaying in the Mediterranean. Of course, if she had met a really interesting man, then she would marry him if their life styles would fit. But otherwise she had no need to remarry. I believe that audience would have been satisfied with a hint of possibility and used their imagination. There is a second problem in the show, too: after the pair has overcome their outer and inner obstacles and problems and finally got each other, how to make their marriage interesting? They must have different characters and values in order that they are not all the time of the same opinion even if they fight together against to overcome an outer obstacle, otherwise they become quite boring. That was the problem with Tom and Sybil. Their greatest obstacle was of outer kind, social status. Once they got married, they were happy period. No wonder Sybil had to die. Even Mary and Matthew's marriage wasn't very interesting. They had problems about financing Downton, but they were solved too easily and I didn't like that it was Mary who always won. Matthew had even to live in his father's house and Mary couldn't have forgiven him if he hadn't invested in Downton. Also, they were very reserved which was of course the English way, but there was never even a hint of passion of newly-weds. Mary seemed to be more interesting in decorating the rooms and having breakfast in bed. Taking the whole show, Edith's development is really most interesting. After being an almost pathetically comic to pursue *any* man, after being jilted at the altar she begun to grow on her own. *Then* was no wonder that first Gregson and then Bertie fell for her as a person. And unlike Mary with anyone with Matthew, one can really believe that she loved them in return. I hope that Bertie comes back in CS, but the main point is that Edith has grown through obstacles she had met and won. On the contrary, Mary has become worse, a teen drama-queen who believes that the whole world circles around her needs and moods.

I can also believe that if Tom abandoned his political views, he wanted to go to the USA and succeed there on his own. But I can't understand that he came back - especially as his former job was now Mary's. What kind of man really wants to live in his deceased wifes's parents house together with them and her sisters? Besides, there is Sybbie. So long she is a baby, it was perhaps nice that she is taken care of a nanny. But does Tom really want her grew up in the house from where Sybil wanted away? To learn the life-style that can never be hers save as a poor relative? The same applies to Marigold. When Edith took her to London, they should have stayed there. Of course I understand that these kind of decisions are due to that in the show most of happenings must be in Downton.

I can believe that Tom became a political journalist but not an estate manager. But what I really can't believe that he became so *tame* and forgot all his political ideals. Later he could have run for Parliament as a Labour candidate against the Conservative candidate supported by Lord Grantham.

Yes, it is quite true that Edith handled badly when she first moved Marigold from the Swiss foster parents to another foster parents who even spoke different language and then took her daughter to herself or rather give her to a nanny's care. In the real life this would show that she put her own feelings of longing before the welfare of her daughter. But this is a show, a fairy tale. And besides, at that time there was no knowledge how harmful separation is to a child. (The grandfather of Ethel's child demanded it also, and it the end Ethel had no choice but accept. Sometimes it is the greatest mother's love to give up her child.) As for Mary losing Matthew in the same day George was born, also Tom lost Sybil in the same day Sybbie was born. For some reason it was only Mary who was allowed to mourn her spouse so much that she wasn't interested even in her son for months. I don't believe that the reason was that Tom coped much better was a man. To JF, Mary's loss was the heaviest, even if Isobel lost her only son. Mary could find another love but Isobel can never get another son and yet, she found meaning in life before Mary did. "This is a show, a fairy tale" is also an explanation I am willing to accept also concerning how easily people seems to instantly learn whatever profession. Violet thought that Tom could manage the estate because as a boy he had seem some relative handle his little farm in Ireland. In a village nearby I was raised was a manor and when in 1890ies the owner became old and, as his son had died early, decided gave it to his only grandchild and her future husband, but first the man had to study agriculture two years! In don't think that managing the estate in England is any easier, especially as great an estate than Downton.

Eolit, you may be right but that only shows that Mary's values are shallow, if she rather wants to be a mistress who can make only secondary things in the secondary ares (except the vital task to bear an heir) than to be a master who has all the real power over Downton. Even after her father dies, her son has to share power with her mother because of Matthew's testament. I don't blame Mary for hesitating to accept Matthew's proposal in case he didn't inherit the title and estate. Marriage was a career for an upper-class woman and when you chose your husband you chose also a way of life for your whole life. It is foolish to believe that everything will be alright just because of love. Aunt Rosamund was right in that Mary wouldn't have been happy as a wife of country barrister and then she would have made also Matthew's life miserable, too. But Mary would hardly have been happy as a duchess, either, as the duke would have married her only for her fortune and visited her bed only to beget an heir and a spare. We know that, Mary doesn't but she should know now that she wouldn't have been happy as a wife of Carlisle even if he would have got a title. I just hope that Mary would have got better advice then. She herself had a right clue that Matthew has talent and could have become Lord Chancellor. What if Aunt Rosamund had said: "Yes, and you can help him in his career. You have connections and you can entertain. You will become a great team." But of course, the series demanded that Matthew and Mary separated. Easy love stories aren't interesting.

When your reaction to a person or a situation is too strong, you may either in fact react to something similar that has happened before, or she may react to entirely something else. In the show we have shown nothing to indicate that Mary has ever had reason to be envious or jealous of Edith. I can't even imagine that their parents, grandmother nor nanny have favored Edith over Mary when they were children. I am sure that even as a newborn baby Edith never took Mary's place as a center of attention. However, there is something else. Mary and Carson's relationship is shown so sweet, but in what kind of family a daughter says that a butler brought her up? In a family where the parents hadn't *shown* that they love their little daughter. So Carson took the role of the father but, being not a father, taught Mary that she is the most wonderful person in the world, deserves only the best from the other people and can do nothing wrong. But why would Robert and Cora behave like that? They are upper-class people who left their children to a nanny but probably also because they were so desperate to have a son and heir. Daughters didn't count, at least when they were still small and one couldn't communicate with them. (As it often happens, it was a different matter with their grandchildren, they really enjoy their company.) So my explanation is: Mary felt deep inside from her earliest youth that her parents were disappointed because she wasn't a boy. She couldn't show her parents her hurt and resentment because they had all the power, so Edith who was younger and weaker than her became a surrogate whom she revenged. Compared to Edith, Mary was a winner even if compared to a boy her parents dreamed of, she was a loser. There is a scene in the first season when Mary is so hurt that her father speaks so highly about Matthew that she rushes out of the room and cries to her mother that her father has a son now. When Cora tries to comfort her that Robert still loves her, Mary answers: but he doesn't fight for me. Robert's valid reasons (that he can't destroy Downton by taking Cora's fortune away from the entail) doesn't mean nothing to Mary. Yes, the men had all in that time. Simply because he was a man born in a right surname and with some accidental deaths, Matthew was going to inherit the title, Downton Abbey and a fortune tied to an estate that was originally Cora's. And even if Cora had born a son, Matthew would have his own career. Mary is right in saying to Matthew that a woman's life is empty until she marries. Women must marry in order to get a status and there is competition between women who marries best. But after Matthew died, Mary has got all that his husband or his unborn brother would have had (save the title): she owns half of an estate and she now even manages it. She has a real power and even her father has admitted that she is as capable as any man. He could also overlook her dalliance with Gllingham as he would his son's affairs. Mary has no cause to remarry if she doesn't want to. So why does this woman still behave like a teen-age drama queen towards her sister? Can't Mary realize that if she can get away with it in the eyes of the others, with every mean act towards Edith she actually damages no more her but herself as she becomes meaner and meaner?

Hecate7, you made an important point about the children. When Edith says in CS when the family goes to the hunting party that she misses Marigold, Mary wonders how she can feel like that although she isn't a mother unlike Mary. We know that Edith *is* a mother but if she wasn't, a person with kind heart wouldn't say that aloud but instead admired Edith who can love another's child so much. Most of all, Mary has not a single time behaved like a mother. We have shown that Tom loves Sybbie, Edith loves Marigold and Robert and Cora love their grandchildren. But it seems that to Mary George is only the heir of title and estate, not her little son.

Mary was most sympathetic in the second season when she had lost Matthew but still loved him. She always behaved decently towards Lavinia. She never tried to separate her from Matthew although there was chances and both Violet and Rosamund urged her to it. Also Matthew also behaved as as "man of honor" who keeps his word no matter of what. Although we admire them their noble and unselfish behavior, from today's POV it was foolish and Violet's advice to Matthew was sound. Instead of Sybil, I think it was Lavinia who was a saint. She even died in order to give Matthew freedom to marry Mary whom he loved and wished them happy from the other world. But was all what it seemed? Remember the scene where Mary, urged by Carson, comes to confess Matthew her love and instead finds Lavinia who says that she couldn't live without Matthew and after that Mary can't make her confession. Was it just a coincidence or did she realize that it was a way to stop Mary? After all, Carlisle said in Christmas Special that Lavinia had said to him: if Matthew only admitted the truth, we could all be happy. Why didn't she act on those words earlier? Of course one can understand that: she loved Matthew and hoped that one day he would too, so she couldn't give him over until she saw him dance with Mary and kiss her when she saw that he hope was in vain.

This seems to be such an interesting forum with many-sided viewpoints that i decided to write also. I think that Mary's behavior is simply no longer "normal". Even if you dislike your sister and there is constant hard words between you and her, there are some circumstances when any normal person does not behave like Mary did f.ex. when Gregson died. Most people feel then that "a family is always a family" and can rise above their differences. Even if they can't, they can play civil manner - or at least shut their big mouth. As for Edith "annoying" Mary who "can't help herself" - that kind of logic is simply not true. It's not other people's behavior that makes us react we do automatically. Once we understand the *reason* why we feel like we do, we can stop these automatic reactions. As Edith is a younger sister and Mary earlier had "everything" (beauty, wit, charisma, love of parents, suitors), it was more natural that Edith felt envy and rivalry towards Mary. But it is a mystery why Mary who has had an upper hand in everything, must constantly be cruel and belittling towards Edith. Take f.ex. the part in the first season where Edith in the end writes the letter to the Turkish embassy. That happens after Mary *has* *four* times shown how much better she is than Edith. Why in heaven's name Edith's question whether Mary is jealous of her because Strallan has shown interest in her, annoys Mary? Why didn't she simply say coldly: "I decide to leave that old man to you" but she must show that if she wants, she can take him, too - even after she and Matthew have just begun to attract each other? Mary behaves like deep down *she* is the one who is more envious of Edith that she is of her. So Edith must never get anything - not a man or talent, nor parent's love. Her sorrow must be overlooked, her joy must be poisoned. And she must never, ever be a center of attention - that place in the family belongs to Mary alone.