Selkie75

Fair enough regarding the bullying and as I stated, what she endured was inexcusable. But even sharing a common experience has not made me warm up to her at all. Is that because of Val? I'll own it and say it's definitely possible but I have liked some of Val's other partners so that is not the only reason. While I agree that TPTB definitely highlight the male pros (which is downright horrible when it comes to female pros like Emma and Lindsay), Val's "stardom" has always felt very forced to me. Of course, as you said, others will say that about Derek, but I have yet to understand how Amy Purdy was ever considered a a celebrity with an advantage and Amy Purdy has since become one of my all-time favorite celebrities to be on the show. I do appreciate you mentioning that both Derek and Val have been given celebrities who have a chance to make it far; I can definitely agree with that. I guess for me there is no arc with Normani; she came in a talented dancer and will leave a talented dancer, regardless of who her pro was and whether or not she has a mirror ball trophy. My guess is that since Derek is no longer on the show, TPTB are desperate to have someone win as much and will do what they have to to make it happen. Why they can't just let it happen naturally with say, Sasha or Artem, or even Val if it was meant to happen that way, I'll never understand. I have always been a viewer much more likely to vote for the celebrity who is just themselves, not so great dancing and all, and who improves from week to week. I am indeed a fan of the "journey" and there just isn't one there with Normani.

Agree 100% with this, though in my opinion, it's gone beyond appears to actually doing. There is a clear agenda this season and I would say it's less about Normani winning than it is about Val winning. Normani seems like a sweet girl, talented and clearly can dance; not surprising as I remember reading somewhere she began training at a very young age and dancing is a large part of her career now. But, I feel like I know almost nothing about her, other than that. David is not the best dancer by far but I can't help but cheer for him because he wears his heart on his sleeve and is just so authentic. What Normani went through in terms of the bullying was horrible, but her dance this week was like another my most memorable year dance where people are likely to vote for the emotional connection rather than solely on the dance. That's fine, but other celebrities should have the same opportunity. They are tipping it so far in her direction - the over praising, the lack of critique, the nauseating hyperbole - that their agenda is becoming more and more crystal clear by the show. I feel like it could have been anyone partnered with Val (though no matter who they would have had some advantage, as has been the case historically) and they would be getting the same treatment. Because of him. Would really be interested to see him win once without so much help.

I know this is going all the way back to page one, but I just had to respond. Henry failed because he has an ego the size of Texas and felt that he was better than being a troupe member assisting a celebrity and pro. Source for that is Shirley Ballas on Afterbuzz. Some might agree with him on that, I actually would have before that season, but arrogance is never a good look. Sasha proved he could be a team player and I've been overjoyed to see him as a pro three times after that.

My take has always been that Caila is very cautious, reserved and introverted and in a franchise where being as ostentatious as possible is celebrated and relationships are forged in mere minutes, her personality is a bit of an enigma, people don't know how to interact with her and she unfortunately becomes and easy target for jealousy, name calling, etc. Personally, I think one of the reasons I have always felt for Caila, going back to Ben's season, is that that she reminds me a little of myself. And as someone who is introverted and cautious, it's so uncomfortable to watch her being bullied for not being like the other girls on the show. I've wondered as well why she made the decision to go on the show. On another note, I noticed something interesting re-watching portions of After Paradise. Right before Ashley came out, Jared was talking about the night last year when he and Ashley kissed, followed by their difficult conversation earlier this year, and feeling like he felt good about their friendship. At the very end of his comments, Michele Collins begins talking about how Ashley is also there and going to commercial, but Jared is still talking, he looks over at one of the other guests, and says "I was wrong". Now, moments later, he hugs Ashley when she comes out, says "it's fine" when she mentions wishing she had given him dignity to make his own decisions, and it doesn't excuse the fact that their relationship is completely dysfunctional, but it's interesting that he admits being wrong. I added a link to the video below; his comment comes at about the 5:37 mark. Curious what others think about him saying that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lralaLEvTFI

And this is exactly one of the reasons that I have completely changed my opinion of Jared, whom I actually liked before. Could there have been other reasons that Jared and Caila didn't stay together? Of course. But, Caila said on After Paradise she and Jared just couldn't get past Paradise and their major obstacle there was Ashley and her all out vitriolic campaign against Caila, which she continues to this day. Who would ever want to have a relationship with someone who enables behavior like Ashley's and on top of that defends her when she said all out horrible things about the girl he was dating? As for Jared hating Caila, I don't see that in his tweet, but if he does, she's so much better off to have that energy as far away from her as possible.

Caila and Jared did date in real life, off camera. Granted, only for 6 weeks but it was after the filming, she traveled to RI to visit him and met his family.

100% agree that everyone, with the exclusion of maybe Nick, tiptoe around her and absolutely give in when she starts the tears. I am a very emotional person by nature, and do tend to cry a fair amount, but I feel that her tears, her histrionics are not about emotion, they are about attention. Case in point, when Jared confronted her about Caila leaving. He was getting upset, for once telling her is as not about her, and instantly she started crying, prompting Jared to coddle, hug, and enable. It's exactly like a child who wants a toy and will cry, and bang their fists and throw an tantrum. Rather than treating Ashley like an adult, everyone else gives her the toy, so of course, she will continue to behave the way she has. It's maddening to watch. Her "friends" are not helping her in any way, shape of form. If I was behaving the way she is, I would hope that my friends would sit me down and tell me the hard truth about how appalling I was being.

Caila has actually addressed this on one of the podcasts, I think it may have been Here to Make Friends, and she owned what she said and that perhaps she should have let Ashley know that she had made the spur of the moment decision to go. Caila seems to be the one who everyone focuses on regarding this conversation BIP, but I find it hard to imagine that this was a mature, dignified conversation between two friends. Much more likely is Ashley devolving into histrionics at some point and manipulating to get what she wanted. During their first conversation in paradise, Caila never denied the conversation and when Ashley asked her why she went out with Jared when she said he wasn't her type, her response was that she talked to him. I have a hard time believing this was some nefarious plot by Caila to back stab Ashley but more likely that she felt in the moment they had that conversation that he wasn't her type. I think she probably wishes she never said it to begin with. I don't even think Caila was given an opportunity to say anything on After Paradise. When Ashley brought up this huge thing that happened off camera, she said she wasn't going to get into it then. The hosts just went along with it because heaven forbid anyone ever truly challenge Ashley. I do have to give credit for Sean for calling Ashley out on the vile things she said about Caila but one insincere apology later, it all seemed to be forgotten. This whole bombshell that Ashley supposedly dropped is just ridiculous. I do wish Caila had been more careful who she was confiding in; let's not forget though that Amanda was sent home right before Caila during Ben's season, after Ben met her daughters, and I have to wonder if there is still some resentment there. But sadly there are those who will take any opportunity to take advantage and it's not surprising that Amanda ran off to the others to spill what she had heard. Caila told Jared, on camera, that she wasn't sure of her feelings toward him. She also dated him for six weeks, off camera, so how that equates to her being fake and just wanting the attention, I have yet to understand. Ashley is the girl who smiles at the other girls faces, then calls them whores and trash behind their back. Hypocrisy at its finest. The double standard is just baffling - everyone on this show has questioned their feelings. I brought it up (no pun intended) on another post, but Carly literally vomited after kissing Evan. She said horrible things about him but for some reason her indecisiveness is given a free pass. Lace was outright flirting with another guy in front of Grant, Izzy broke up with Vinny after one look at Brett, but they have all escaped the treatment that Caila has received. This was never about caring for Jared; Jared is a grown man. If this was about Jared, she wouldn't still be going on about it, months later, when Jared and Caila aren't even together anymore. Ashley had a clear agenda and it was about getting back at Caila. It's all baffling and unsettling and just gross to witness. I had very little respect for many of the cast on this show and that has declined to no respect at this point. My respect for Caila has grown and I sincerely hope that the hatred stops being directed at her as it has to be difficult. I really don't even want to watch the finale at this point.

Exactly. People get behind a computer screen or their phone and think it's an open license to say horrible things, because it's anonymous. In this case, its people that Caila knows that are saying, and agreeing with what is being said, and that has to sting as well. Totally with you on needing mindless TV too. :)

You're welcome. Completely agree, and I think for the most part that kind of high school clique behavior can be ignored but it would be difficult for it to not have a cumulative effect.

@backformore @graciek I apologize, I should have clarified that part of my post a little better. They haven't shown other cast members being mean to Caila during any of the episodes, but many of the posts I have seen on social media, specifically those which seem to be in ardent agreement with Ashley's posts have taken on the group think I mentioned in my post. Mainly it seems to be Amanda and the twins who re-tweet and come to Ashley's defense by saying things like "let's not judge Ashley for saying what we all think" (this was from Amanda) and re-tweeting Ashley's tweets which always seem to be not so subtle digs at Caila. At one point Ashley tweeted a lyric from a Taylor Swift song, something along the lines of "she's not who you think she is, she's an actress" (I have almost zero knowledge of Taylor Swift lyrics so I'm very much paraphrasing) which was promptly re-tweeted by Carly and at least one of the twins. Ashley deleted that tweet very soon after she posted it. Christian was on the Afterbuzz recap this week and made mention of others taking digs at Caila. While they haven't been outright cruel to Caila, their unshakeable agreement with Ashley, no matter what she says, just smacks of mean girl, clique behavior. Are they on the level of Ashley's cattiness? No, but it does seem like it's all against Caila and that has to be a horrible feeling.

I have not posted on here in so long but felt compelled to after reading the other posts, and just feeling surprisingly unsettled by what has happened on BIP the last two weeks. I can usually watch reality shows with many thousands of grains of salt but Ashley, and some of other cast members' behavior has been so ugly the past couple of weeks. I've never fully understood the amount of hate Caila has gotten since Ben's season. It may be that Caila has qualities that remind me of myself - mainly being reserved and cautious, overthinking. But to see how she has been treated, to see this strange group think and scapegoating happening, is just disconcerting. We keep hearing that the cast are bothered by Caila's indecision - after one date. I'm more bewildered by the engagements that happen after 18 days than someone who wants to be cautious after only knowing Jared for less than 24 hours. Somewhere along the twisted path this show has created, caution became disinterest when it is just not so. But this this does not seem to be a standard for all, as we have Carly (literally) vomiting after kissing Evan and now everyone is all about what a sweet couple they are. Not sure why her indecision has been deemed acceptable but someone else does it and they are treated the way Caila has been treated. We also keep hearing other cast members applaud Ashley's honesty, how authentic she is. We should all strive to be more honest and authentic and generally speaking, I greatly appreciate these qualities. But to be cruel under the guise of authenticity is just another form of bullying and certainly should not be enabled. I felt so sad watching Caila during her conversation with Ashley last night - she just seemed defeated and in some ways, broken down by everything that has gone on. Shame on Ashley for looking in her in the eye, after doing everything she could to smear her, and say she felt bad for her. Ashley repeats ad nauseum how concerned she is for Jared, that she is looking out for him - then be a mature woman for one, talk to him about your concerns, and let him make up his own mind, like an adult without needing to manipulate. We're all very aware that there is editing to produce three hours of television but regardless of that, Ashley's behavior is her behavior and what is shows is someone who is obsessed, and willing to do whatever necessary to ensure that he never has a successful relationship. The constant denigration of Caila, the constant misguided affirmations from friends of this genuinely ugly behavior is just baffling to me. The best thing for Ashley is to not be coddled anymore, to be called on her behavior, as Nick has done a few times. Jared should do some serious stepping up as well - if you do not want to be with Ashley, then stop giving her reasons to think that there is more there than friendship.

This is my first post, though I have been lurking for some time. I just had to add my voice to those not quite understanding how a picture of Bindi's father being shown is any different than the hundredth time we heard that Nick is a Backstreet Boy (and I'm a BSB fan), the hero narrative for Alek, and the husband/wife battle with Carlos. Let's call a spade a spade here - if that picture was manipulation than so were Sharna and Nick dancing to Larger than Life, while incorporating choregraphy from the video (seriously, is Fatima Robinson going to get a nod at any point for using her choreography in his Jazz and tonight?). Last week, Alex danced to America the Beautiful with a flag blowing in the background. How is that not manipulation?