Dorne2.0

I'm new to this show, I read the book and didn't think I could bear watch it. I just want to say something, OMG, I though Serena was being played by Portia De Rossi. Wow. They look identical. I was thinking, wow, Portia still looks so young!

I was molested by a beloved family member until I was 4 or 6, I can't remember exactly. My abuser was a woman (I'm a woman) and she was molested before by a family member too. I think that's why this documentary touched me so strongly. I completely understand these men refusal to look at it as abuse for so long, even after adulthood. But people don't understand that. They don't want to. They don't wanna believe child sexual abuse can feel like affection, they don't want to believe a mother would abuse her daughter. They don't want to believe you can still care about your abuser. They don't wanna believe abusers sometimes think they are doing nothing wrong but showing love or that touching, caressing and kissing their child's genitals is sexual abuse and not normal because it was done to them by their parents or grandparents. It's sad people are so attached to Michael Jackson's image to see what's obvious. They have never been through that kind of abuse, and they don't want to face their Beloved Idol is a pedophile.... They claim Wade and James defended MJ so strongly before, well so did a lot of Warren Jeff's child brides, they don't understand the victim's mindset. I watched that once, I just saw they were telling the truth, they'd have to be incredible actors and have an awful lot of insight into this kind of abuse to lie so well. It's disheartening you can even voice your opinion it's true without being attacked in most discussion sites online.

Liza Minnelli said right after he died he talked with an adult voice with friends and it was all an act,

I know! First thought on my mind reading that. They sound like they are basically admiting MJ would prefer younger kids... I guess deep down they know and don't care because it was their Idol, Michael Jackson. I think they possibly mean that it's not possible for MJ to abuse a kid who was taller than him, completely oblivious to the reality of sexual abuse. I mean the grooming that ocurred since age 9/10, I totally believe Michael wanted to "show his love for James" since he testified for him in the Jordan lawsuit.

MJ supporters are laughing at the idea that Michael would molest James in 94/95 because he was taller than MJ than... I have no words.

You mean Wade's dad. James' dad was always in support of Michael. And Latoya mentioned MJ making a 2 million dollars check to a garbage man, and James dad worked as a garbage man apparently. He died so I won't speak ill of the dead... (or is he ill and James didn't want to mention him?). I hope that Jordan has a good life now. He probably got access to his money at 18 or 21, hopefully after years of therapy. Jordan apparently offered to persue criminal charges if Gavin's case didn't go well but the statute of limitations had run out. Someone on this thread mentioned this.

"Jamie began to withdraw from everyone else, no longer playing with other kids. Eventually, he wouldn't speak to his father and six-year-old half-brother, even on the phone. He and Michael were quickly labeled "inseparable." They played with slingshots and squirt guns. They threw water balloons off the balcony of Michael's condo in Century City onto passing cars." (...) "It was the first night Michael and Jamie would share the same bed, Michael wearing sweats, Jamie wearing pajamas. Michael had rented The Exorcist, and Jamie got scared. His mother and sister stayed in another bedroom in the suite. The next night the two wanted to sleep together again. But a confrontation ensued, because Jamie's mother objected. At this point, claim insiders who believe the case against Jackson, Michael began to cry, telling Jamie's mother, "This is about being a family, not making judgments." He declared his love for each of them and pleaded, "Why don't you trust me? If we're a family, you've got to think of me as a brother. Why make me feel so bad? This is a bond. It's not about sex. This is something special." He then said Jamie could sleep wherever he wanted to. That did it—Jamie's mother was won over. From that night on, with few exceptions, she allowed 13-year-old Jamie and his 34-year-old rich and powerful friend to share the same bed for more than three months. Michael essentially moved in, and lived with Jamie in one room of the family's small, unpretentious house in Santa Monica Canyon while his little friend went to school." (...) "Minor stated Mr. Jackson told minor that minor would go to Juvenile Hall if he told and that they'd both be in trouble. Minor also said Mr. Jackson told him about other boys he had 'done this with' but he didn't go as far with 'them.' [Jamie gave authorities the names of four other boys Michael allegedly told him about. Macaulay Culkin's name appeared in the report, but he has denied any wrongdoing on the part of Jackson.] Minor stated Mr. Jackson tried to make him hate his mo. and fa. so that he could only go to Mr. Jackson." (...) "Then Jamie's father saw Jackson and Jamie in bed together. They were fully clothed, but his suspicions were aroused. Michael and Jamie told him, he has said, that they couldn't stand Jamie's mother, and that she hated his wife. They seemed to be playing the parents off against one another. Jamie's father eventually came to believe that because of Michael "there is no family anymore." Jamie's mother, with whom the dentist had always enjoyed a friendly relationship, scoffed at his concerns." Oh my God... there are some pretty gross details in there, but I'm quoting the grooming part because it shows how manipulative M.J was. Bastard. BTW, Jordan's dad deal was 20 million in a trust fund for Jordan and 2.5 million to each parent...

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/03/10-undeniable-facts-about-the-michael-jackson-sexual-abuse-allegations/amp 10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations 1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced. 2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.” 3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson. 4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings. 5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds. 6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there. 7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson. 8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet. 9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time. 10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys. MJ also refers to Michael Jacobshagen as Rubba Rubba. And doesn't he refer to one the boys in that video posted before as applehead too? This is the book Jacobshagen says MJ gave him and it refers to him as Rubba Rubba and it's an art book of naked boys and teens. On this video posted by Robert Lynch, at 00: 21 Michael says "he's an applehead". He called James Applehead and Wade Little One...

Wade had already said the items were fake. It was symbolic. Wade may not be a perfect victim, but I fully believe MJ sexually abused him, James and other children. Really, Michael Jackson slept in bed with little boys and dumped them when they got older, he had "art books" of little boys and teen boys naked...alarms that told him when people got near his bedroom. Wade may not have handled the abuse well at first, but I believe the abuse ocurred, Michael is the one that is unbelievable. Wade may not be the victim people would find most sympathetic but I have no problem understanding things Wade did that doesn't paint him in the best light, like his reaction of anger when his father visited, or him testifying in 2005... selling those items? I do not care a bit. I believed in Jordan in the first place. Also, abused victims may need or want money as compensation too, and that is not awful, abusing kids is awful. About James we discussed it a lot already. Michael and James when James was 16 in 1994, AFTER THE TRAIN STATION WAS BUILT. I have no doubt MJ also molested him in this time, since he said it was how they expressed their "love" to each other. "Terry George was close friends with Michael Jackson between the ages of 13 and 15. He claims that Michael Jackson once sexually harassed him over the telephone when he was thirteen years old. According to him, it was a single incident." "Jordan Chandler was a 13-year-old boy who travelled with Michael Jackson in 1993. He spent 70 nights sleeping with Michael Jackson over a 5 month period. He later accused Michael Jackson of sexual abuse and Jackson payed him and his family off with 22 million dollars." "Michael Jacobshagen (1998). He has accused Jackson of molestation taking place when he was fourteen years old in 1998." Plus Gavin, Wade and James.

I see your point, I wasn't old enough to watch SNL when Norm was there, I just saw these compilations lately and thought he had a dark sense of humor, and it was a comedy show so his delivery had to be funny. I checked on his O.J Simpson jokes and they are pretty savage too, and dark, like when he said Ron's last words were probably "Hey! You are O. J. Simpson!" (if I were Ron's family I would be hurt by that joke.). Though I did gave the expression homossexual pedophile a second look, I guess I thought "Well, those were the lates 90's".

I could not sleep at night when I watched. It's pretty horrendous. Word of advice, don't try to discuss it with Mj's cult of fans. It is pointless. They are spreading false information (saying the FBI investigated MJ for ten years and found nothing - it's false, they never did a independant investigation on him, they gave the police tech support and investigated an indidual who was trying to extort MJ, said individual went to jail). And they keep trying to pick the men's stories apart, they expect them to remember everything perfectly (it happened decades ago). His fans are making death threats to anyone who say they believe in these men on Facebook or on Youtube. And they keep repeating the same things to try and destroy these two men. It's kind of crazy, I got attacked on youtube and there was always a bunch of replies with huge texts. I had to block notifications.

Just seen it?

You are right, realizing we all let him get away with it, or that we felt helpless about not being able do do anything but make jokes, maybe that's why its so infuriating now and why we fell so protective of these men. We, as a society, failed them. So that's why it pisses me off when people try and destroy their credibility or make death threats. I am tired of the same old excuses "Wade dated Brandi, James got a date wrong". My parents were fans but we haven't really bought any of his music since the Jordan case and now I can't even listen to it again without feeling sick.

He was incredible. I guess Jackson didn't want to make it look like it got to him, and those were other times. I don't find the abuse funny, but this guy constantly reminding people that MJ was a pedophile was great. Just like 30 Rock had that scene that hinted at Bill Cosby. Just look for 30 Rock Bill Cosby on Youtube.

I agree and I have to confess that I love this video: