Hobo.PassingThru

Time travel is crazy and this show was just crazy enough to bring it up and end the show with it happening. So, all the characters got a do-over and as far as we know, Syd and David and David's mother went on to better lives? The Time Traveler did not say that Cary/ Kerry would go onto greater lives but circumstance showed they might have lived better lives separately. Since Syd did seem to already have a second chance at her earlier life, will her reboot make it a third time around or are we to believe that Melanie and Oliver did raise her the second time? It would seem like they didn't because she regained consciousness to pick up where she left off in her life and to lead to the final episodes' events. So, whatever the alt-childhood was it probably wasn't a Second Life? Does that sound plausible? I'll miss this show and it's great parts: the music, the actors, the performances, the direction, the stories, and the fight scenes-- as hilariously non-confrontational or shockingly violent. The show had a lot of visually beautiful segments and episodes, too

Well, as I wrote earlier, season three's finale didn't work for me either. Just the deep effort the group made to find out where the castle was and how to get there combined with needing to find seven keys and also find out none of them were going to be used to unlock the main door. And then they are foiled by one of the group (not the most wrong thing-- Alice was not cooperating well since the niffen (sp?) thing) However, when the library/ Fogg contingent just popped up AND when newly minted goddess Julia spent all her power to remake the keys AND they still lost out after the quest.... ugh. True, the peacock man who sent them on the quest told Elliot that quests can end messed up. And it still felt like I could see the writers making their choices to meet that desired ending. This season ended similarly with the "writer's fingerprints" showing as another poster wrote. I could turn my brain off and say whatever happens happens. But, those two jars were hot potatoes and they took their time tossing in the second one. So, suddenly super powerful Everett showed up to toss a knife screwing it all up in the lamest way[*}, not too far removed from Alice waiting until they were in that castle to screw up the keys. She could have hidden stolen or destroyed one key and that would have pushed the brakes on those Brakesbillians! I don't mind Anti-happily ever afters. But knowing it is just a cliffhanger to another season long arc is too discouraging. I don't care what happens next. And part of me feels like i could map out the most likely variations given the past two seasons. [* edit: If they had disposed of both jars into the seam and Everett unleashed some of that lake-full of magic on Quintin, Penny-23 and Alice, I would have accepted that. In part because it would make sense that next season's big bad would be God Everett and the other magicians would have all the reason in the world to avenge (haha) their friends and figure out how to do so short-handed. I wouldn't have "liked" that development but it seems more proper (?) than God Everett powering up only to never use that tonnage of juice he swallowed.]

One thing which I'm trying to figure out is if the multiple timelines was just a really bad idea or not. Obviously, it opens up the 'X Character is dead but... we can rebuild them' scenario. Also, making those four gods to be also librarians seems silly. I couldn't see Bacchus as in charge of anything, really. I did some digging to figure out what myths talk of dismembering a god or a creature and found one. It was one version of the Bacchus myth. so, at 'the time, I thought: maybe having the Monster Elliot seek out the body parts will sort of make sense having precedence. But, nah. I gave up after they made the multiple stones body parts of the Monster's sister. Back to the multiple timelines playing a role here: it was good when the Magicians were getting clues to figure out their next moves-- like with Alice's version helping them. But, once they had Evil Quintin as the Beast and introduced Penny 23, negating Penny's death, it went the wrong direction, in my opinion. So, to have all of that lead up to this season and to have the conclusion to the season lead to another death which might not be undoable makes the lead up so much less tight, to me. It's like dropping the revelation that Quintin's specialty is fixing small things. Really? Once they revealed that it was obvious it would come back in play. Though, I thought they covered each character's specialty in the first season. The clever bits and innovations the writers laid out and which came to fruition in this episode just don't hold water, like a drained magical lake. How is it Alice and Quintin couldn't suck up more of that water but Everett could suck it all up and waste it by not really using it? A lot of WTFs.

I don't know if knowing the Fillory books matters as much at this point in the story. But, that fiction within fiction that was based on the series of books seemed important early on. Though, I can't remember how important the books were for season 3. I want to say there's always been parts of the books that pops back up. Not just Fillory and all involving that, but, passages and curses and other stuff are known, better known through the books. I think. The thing is, I haven't nor do I have plans on reading the original Magicians books. I should not mind the Magicians writer being open to manipulating his works for money. uh. I mean, I should not mind that the writer is not married to his work and sees it as malleable. I mean why not look at hours and days and months and years? of writing as resulting in silly putty. Do what you want, readers and TV people! I got my checks! But, I liked the Chronicles of Narnia-esque Fillory skeleton for the Magicians story. The story within a story can be interesting to me. So maybe the Fillory stuff doesn't matter in the show anymore. Oh wait. It somehow still does because Margo and Elliot went back there and were 300 years in the future. And that perverted writer of the books is still at large, I think. Well, despite those things, the Quinton character was the one who seemed to have that book shit memorized. Maybe there's other magicians who have the fictional books from that Fillory series memorized. Maybe a character will read or re-read the series in honor of Q. Who knows. Maybe the meta aspects of the storytelling is not leaning on other invented fictions not found in the original Magicians books series. i don't know. I just think that this adaptation of a series of wizard books is suffering from too many cooks and is trying to write far beyond the source. I'd be fine with that if this story was based on a straight up myth. This show has only been on four seasons but many the cleverness of some of the most major choices from the past 14 episodes has been less clever than the show's writers think. So, I think it is a foregone conclusion they know how the series will end (not a surprise) and need to thread the needles and make the stitching seems like that was the pattern they were making from way back in Episode One. Maybe next season won't be clunky and could be as great as season 2 or 3, but, I care less. My wants from fiction nowadays is give me a good opener, make me care to read to the end, and then end it as properly and poetically as possible. So, I want to see great endings. But, I want to care to wait that long when it comes to TV-- which makes me just want to read the original Magicians books and call it a day on these characters. I might choose that ending.

Exactly. Then there is the fact that Quinton tossed in the first jarsuccessfully and Everett threw the knife (or whatever it was) and it just broke the mirror. That's lame. No matter what weirdo excuse they use for how something could break the mirror- an open door to another dimension or some crap- Everett broke it. Lame. Maybe if Everett had knocked over the mirror and broke it, sure, it would break. But, nope. He just threw some random thing at the portal and the glass broke. (eyeroll)

That's almost what I intended to write. Even the choppiness at the beginning was rushed and led to me being slightly confused about the time they were establishing. That settled down after a short while. However, the forced aspect of the story bugged me throughout most of it. In that way for me, this finale was like last year's finale: it felt like I could see the writer just making choices to get to the desired ending for the episode, and, getting to the end of the season, and, setting up the cliffhangers for next season. Sure, it is a TV show; it's episodic. So, the cliffhanger part is expected for a season finale. But, the way the show sets up the ending and the next chapter seems so forced. Count me as one of the viewers who hasn't read the books and who also hated all of the characters in the first season, except for Dean Fogg and the goat god. But, after season two settled in, I began liking some of the characters. By season three, I hated different ones and liked ones I hated in season two. Season three was great except for how they set up this season in the finale. Maybe it should not have surprised me that this season would have so many clunky parts and less of season three's flow from episode to episode. The ending though just put the icing on the crap cake. Quinton told Penny 23 to drag Alice away before they went to the mirror world. So, when things went sideways and when Quinton fixed the mirror I was stunned that was the plan. It was a bad plan. And, sure, I know they tend to screw things up. But, if Quinton was going to use magic then all bets were off. Penny23 could have teleported to Quinton with Alice and then out of the room back to the mirror door. That could have been the plan. But they intentional did the "hero's sacrifice" when it really didn't seem needed. Pardon me for having looked up how the third book went but I was looking forward to seeing how that might play out given what has happened on the show. I wasn't into any of the relationships happening or not. I just wanted to see how all of these characters mature in the time they are there. And, what happened with Julia over the past three seasons was messed up. It's great she has magic but has she been allowed to make any major life decisions that determine her destiny? She didn't get into Brakebills until timeline 40; she became a god; she lost her god powers; her goddess got killed before her eyes; Penny 23 (and his crappy choices) chose her direction for her. Reading a bit about what the writers said about the episode: honestly, they were rationalizing forcing a certain story, a story that was just unexpected. That's great. Twilight Zone it up a bit. But, it seemed like they were dozing off at the wheel and missed a turn off and became fully awake to realize they were lost. Well, okay. That's how I felt.

Isn't the key to whomever is at the door and being greeted by Penny 40: someone with a secret? His boss said that Penny's new job was to get secrets people take to their graves. That really doesn't narrow it down to anyone specific. Yet, if Penny 40 plays any role in the other ongoing storylines, that person will give him a secret he can somehow pass on to the other magicians. The only problem with this possibility is that there is a Penny 40 and a Penny 23. Every one of that group has multiple dead versions of themselves. I just don't think it is a main character from the "current" timeline (which is just ridiculous that there are multiple timelines. It's such a story cheat). But, don't forget there's also 4 gods who died recently, and, if Penny 40 met Bacchus once, that'd be enough for his reaction.

At first glance given the way that part was shot- from a distance and from behind- it was confusing. They should have had a close up of him tossing it in the trash. However, rewatching it, Bell clearly puts the envelope in his jacket and switches the book he was carrying to his other hand. So, when he throws something in the trash, he is definitely tossing the book away. "Whew!" right? If they hadn't settled on that distance, static shot of him from behind, we would have seen it clearly and it would have had a better impact as closure. Bell did make a definite choice to not go for the demotion/ promotion. He's a detective. Admittedly, that is why having him take a "test" to prove his detective skills was a clever ruse. He's gotten some story lines. There was an episode with him and his brother. And, for a whlle (half a season?) he left the precinct and worked for a threat assessment task force. He is a good character and the actor does great even in limited roles.

I agree that Constance wasn't show dealing with Peggy's off-kilter behavior so she didn't know what she was getting into with trying to seduce Peggy. I don't blame Constance for as much as some people have. Peggy's obsessions went on for much longer than normal. A person Peggy's age doesn't have a basement filled with Beauty and Travel magazines with some to spare for being arranged on kitchen chairs. So, whatever Peggy was dealing with probably predated her even dating Ed. So, Peggy's desires opened her up to possibilities that Constance offered. That's probably obvious. But, as I believe I mentioned before, Peggy was on a level where she didn't get what others understood and no one really get her. For instance, her and Ed saw life progressing differently; they were on divergent paths. But, even when Ed believed she understood his wants for them, she didn't want what he wanted. Maybe that makes her a liar for leading him on, like, her taking birth control pills when he wanted kids. But, she was never really on the same road with anyone expected for the guy she hit. Which brings up an interesting (to probably just me) aspect : Peggy and Ed were going around together in the car. Peggy and Lou went back to Lurvene in a car. She was never in sync with either guy. They always talked past each other. And the one time she made a connection with anyone on the road was the guy she hit, who rode along with her back to her garage without saying a contradictory word to her.

I don't think that Earth-2 Flash had a Reverse Flash in the comics. E-2 Flash has superlame villains like The Fiddler, who played an mean violin. (eyeroll) He's oooooollllld in the comics. Really old. So, the Reverse Flash will still hopefully just irrationally hate Barry Allen or The Flash just because he's kind of a nutjob who doesn't realize that without The Flash, he wouldn't have super-speed powersl It's such a goofy character. It doesn't seem like they could make him helpful or allow Barry to find forgiveness in adding that character. But, who knows. Maybe they will Reverse the Reverse Flash and make him a good guy, or, given how Jay seems like a scaredy-cat, maybe E2 Rev-Flash will be a brave hero for the moment.

I agree with the first part but he did kill two people. While I guess both instances were self-defense, he did do it. On further consideration, it was kill or be killed. There were at least four characters who served in a war. Given what the series covered and how it was covered, did the final episode seal any sort of Vietnam metaphor, or a war metaphor in general? There are parts of the series which outright has a war between KC and the crime family. Also, unrelated, someone previously asked how the motel room Mike and those Kitchen brothers stayed in must have been blood stained. And, the motel would have known something was amiss. Wasn't there a news paper headline which mentioned something about that motel, Milligan specifically, or KC mafia in relation to that motel, specifically?

Now that you mention it, of course! Yesterday, I brought up how she must have seen Rye and maybe even intentionally hit him. But, you reminded me that she could have been distracted by the UFO. Duh. If she was distracted by that it would explain why she was so non-chalant about seeing a second one at the motel, when Ed was entranced by it. Ha! Maybe if it had been mentioned or shown that she definitely saw it, why she hit Rye would have been clearer. Thanks!

To be honest, while I did see a lot of attempts at bringing up feminism, and in the cases of the characters of Hanzee and Mike Milligan, while watching the show, I didn't see it anymore than acknowledging the struggles of the characters. I think what Peggy said in that soliloquy to Lou was correct. Her character was as right as rain in what she said. But, the problem was she was talking about someone else, not her situation. She really seemed incapable of seeing her situation. Her character was being very inflexible in her thinking. As a contrast, the conversation Betsy had with babysitter/ helper, (Norrel? Norrie?) Well, Betsy was pretty inflexible about her thinking but she did zing Camus pretty good. The babysitter seemed to be open minded to what Betsy was saying. Considering she was dancing with nihilism, that flexibility in thinking seemed positive. A lot of the characters in the story who were not flexible in their thinking-- who were monomaniacal in their actions-- died, like Dodd, or didn't get their desired rewards, like Mike. Contrast that to Lou, who had to grow and accept circumstances and Hank, who had to accept similar circumstances to being a single-parent years before. Peggy was not willing to see what was right before her, or, right next to her, or, if there was something or someone there, she would ignore if unless she could poke it with a knife or the butt of a gun. Well, I take that back, she did become engrossed with that Reagan movie.... all while ignoring the fact that Dodd somehow got loose from that tremendous amount of rope. So, her immersion in fantasy got the best of her. The magazines were the boldest indicators of that immersion. I wish she could have been actually actualized, but, I'm convinced she could understand it only as it applies to someone else and not to her current or future situation. That is the character.

While I'm unsure if there still is one, in the 1980s there were instances in Kansas City and in other non-Chicago cities in the Midwest that were linked to the mob. There were mafia families and I suppose wannabe families. If you are interested, you may want to look it up in newspaper articles from the 70s and the 80s. I'm not going to get lost in a search hole so I won't.

Whoops! Well that clears that up. Since no one else in this thread mentioned a particular one, I thought Alcatraz was the only one. But, now that you mention it, I have heard of the other one. While I guess the answer would be clear if the kid was shown with one or no shoes, I didn't notice it. I guess it could have been his shoe, after all. So, I guess that would sort of make the porch decorations ironic. Kinda.