SusanSunflower

me too. I didn't think he was abandoning her, more that he'd had a realization that the situation was (and had been) much more complicated than he knew/thought; she was not quite the person he thought she was (that fantasy that he was in love with); and that he had proposed to a woman pregnant with another man's baby ... oh my ... She also -- by giving him as contact person -- had ensnared him in more secrets and cover-up particularly wrt to her parents ....

Born 1952, I and my classmates in California were slotted in 7th grade based on IQ scores as either college material or not ... There were many good jobs that were learned as apprenticeships or on the job training, letters of recommendation (who you knew) were key. Most people did not go to college and in families willing and able to support a first-in-family college student usually devoted the money and effort to sons ... as future fathers and breadwinners. Two year Community Colleges offered all sorts of good (life long career type) vocational training -- nursing, accounting, auto mechanics, drafting. Three girls in my 8th grade class left school to get married to their baby daddy ... Birth control pills were still new and "scary" and besides many girls were eager to get started on that family they had been dreaming of ... Ambitions for most people were fairly modest by today's standards ... College loans were a very new thing in the late 1970s when I was struggling putting myself through ... and were not available to me because they required parental tax info neither of my parents were willing to provide (means testing).

There is no way to confuse a spontaneous (traumatic or otherwise) miscarriage with a gravid (pregnant) uterus surgically scraped clean. I had wondered about the money too, but I don't think (am I wrong?) that Morse knew she was pregnant until the doctor told him ... There was a date stamp at the start, but I don't remember what it was --- As linked above, abortion was both legal and covered by national health as of April 1968 ... God knows some -- now and then -- people object to the idea of termination but may pray for a miscarriage or throw themselves down stairs as "natural" and/or god's will. People who oppose abortion nonetheless bite the bullet have abortions to terminate unwanted or inconvenient ("disasterous") pregnancies I'm not sure that Joan and Morse have actually had a substantive conversation yet -- about anything!! -- much less her "situation". IMHO, He's mistaking his anxiety and caring about Joan, in her predicament, and the prospect of "losing her" with "love". .. and I'm pretty sure she's not in love with him, even if she is grateful, even if she really "likes" him ... ETA: This episode reminded me again of just how alone in the world Morse is -- beyond Work and The Thursdays -- he's got no one (except his unmentioned again sister). Joan has her mom and dad and bro -- but also has her circle of friends and school chums, she's local, a townie ... Morse is neither.

Everyone's feelings and motivations (of the ongoing soap opera of Morse, the Thursdays, and the police station) was so opaque I was left frustrated, suspecting that I was projecting motives and rationales rather than seeing some story-as-written (or intended) ... Regardless, Joan did not "share" news of her pregnancy with Morse and my suspicion in the closing moment was that realizing this was a wake-up call to Morse that Joan and her situation was more complex than "damsel in distress". Personally, I wondered if Morse realized that Joan was -- essentially -- using and manipulating him, throwing whatever affection he may have felt from her into question. Like her married lover, Morse was there, eager and able to "help", and/or to be "used" Similarly, for some reason, my impression was that Joan had thrown herself down the stairs in-order-to miscarry (a rarely successful method) ... but she may have invented a trip-and-fall to cover being thrown down the stairs by Mr. Married (since battered women do conceal the violence for reasons of their own, to avoid prying eyes and inconvenient police inquiries). I hope it's the end of Joan and Morse (which would have been such a bad pairing IRL even in the best of times) Fwiw, by the magic of google and wikipedi wrt to the UK Did they mention how-far-along Joan was? Wondering exactly when and how she hooked up with Mr. Married ... but honestly I wasn't paying rapt attention ... Was Morse less than chuffed about the medal because it was in large part a reward for a successful cover-up .... Thursday, being older, was delighted for the honor and joy it gave his wife.... sort of thing that would be mentioned in his obituary ... iykwim. Still the best thing on my TV (not getting premium cable and having very spotty internet for streaming) but Morse seems oddly less defined now than he did at the start of this year... yes, looking forward to next season. Shaun Evans has lost much of his Remayne-like qualities ... It will be interesting to see him in non-Morse projects, much as I look forward to Remayne in some future less one-off "unique" role. I grew weary and never finished Fantastic Beasts, the sequels to which (multiple planned) iirc have him under extended contract ... very tired of having many of our best actors tied up in fantasy and comic book stories and CGI (seems to dull them)

Funny, I never considered Joan either innocent or sheltered**, rather involved with or drawn to the "small town" glamor of that mob nightclub; part of the town v. gown contrast of the Oxford/Cambridge of the university versus the "regular folk" working service jobs in the same area and the sometimes less than savory co-mingling, such as drug trafficking to eager students ... a regular Colin Dexter class-based theme balancing out the wealthy good-family crimes of the well-educated university folks. Joan was looking for some sort of excitement and some sort of glamour, going back to the end of season one. She didn't make much of an impression on me otherwise, except as a person of limited-prospects / ambitions (as townies often are) in a place filled with well-to-do young people (students) anticipating bright and wealthy futures ... how frustrating the contrast be if you're the one working a dull pretty-much dead-end job at the local bank. -- however, I never saw much "spark" to Joan except maybe she was attracted to ambitious, somewhat "dangerous" men. ** She certainly gave her parents no worries that I recall, but that was likely a matter of careful discretion.

There's no evidence that Joan is "that sort of girl" ... except for her flirtation with the "wild side" hanging out at that mob connected nightclub, even after warned off by Morse and apparently subsequent events (her father being in the mob crosshairs) did not extinguish that attraction to the wrong-side-of-town (hard to keep the various mobs/organized crime and more petty criminal elements straight or to remember if/how they are interconnected). Joan may just consider her parents conventionally dull and old-fashioned (normal enough for most teens). I honestly don't remember but I think she knew her (bingo-caller??) boyfriend was considered a bad sort, running with a bad crowd. I don't know -- also -- if the children of policemen have the same mystique wrt to "running wild" that plagues the children of clergy ... some sort of assumption that they are inclined to rebellion, having been raised in such as repressive moralistic home environment. I think Morse has vaguely worried about Joan since the end of season 1 ... in a older brother sort of way, knowing full well that he's not her brother and the inappropriate presumption of acting like one. I took Joan's stated plans of maybe going abroad, etc. as a sort of brag about her various opportunities in her new "free of the past" life, but again "who's paying for this" looms large. Working class women in the U.S. in that period also had no access to credit (and earned too little to qualify for any sort of loan or credit card). Several women living together "chaperoned" each other from the gossip that they were "kept women" or prostitutes. Lots of concern about contraception paving the way for "nice young girls" to go wild ... since unplanned pregnancy commonly put an end to many young women's dreams, even as small as high school graduation -- "shot gun weddings" were preferable to the (unthinkable, life ruining))alternative ... for at least another decade. Homes for unwed mothers were common also.

I will be very surprised if Joan's sugar-daddy was previously unknown to her ... not a pre-existing "romance" but an older man willing to give her some help and "a shoulder" ... perhaps a friend of the boyfriend. I think part of what Joan ran away from was her parents' (even Morse's) image of more blameless and deserving of sympathy than she felt herself to be. Being "honest" with them would mean destroying that parental pride. Morse had been keeping Joan's secrets from her parents ( I think) since the first season when he was shocked to find her hanging out at the mob night club, etc. This is the mid 60's ... not the feminist 1970's ... There was little expectation that most girls could do much more than squeak by, sharing a flat with several others, working for a pittance ... think Holly Golightly and the money she received for her visits to the "powder room" (which paid her rent and bought her clothes and shoes, etc., in addition to HER mob acquaintance to passed his "weather report" along with her as messenger). Maybe we'll find out next week.

It's not fast if she left home to "be together" with him ... Also, immature as it may be, it's possible that Joan (who knows she's okay) has no idea that her mother is beside herself with ... whatever. It's part of the egotism of many young people, say away at college, who don't understand why their parents are frantic when they can't reach them instantly and/or when they don't check-in "regularly" ... Joan has been very very busy shopping and decorating her new apartment .... a whirlwind Mrs. Thursday didn't strike me as overly or excessively involved in her children's lives ... although an empty house after years of looking after a family might well be enough to cause a mid-life "existential" crisis regardless of the circumstances ... all that free time weighs heavily. Some women start to drink ...

The motive was that the young cousin of the (first) girl who died -- due to that physician's neglect, covered up by the head nurse, his lover, in younger days -- wanted "justice" so she murdered a half-dozen innocent patients to throw suspicion on the physician (again covered up by the head nurse, now a vindictive spinster, still pining for the man) ... Crazy (grief-stricken) person becomes conscienceless serial killer in pursuit of justice ... (see also second season of another popular detective show) and "serial killer" is not suspected for the longest time because .... and the killer's identity is never suspected because the "motivation" is hopelessly preposterous ... "justice" being sought some 10 plus years later ... for closed case of negligence. I'm not sure how long it's been standard practice but most hospitals these days have monthly reviews of all patient deaths and poor-outcomes (mortality and morbidity conference) ... and autopsies are sought (sometimes by the coroner) on patients without clear cause-of-death. Really truly, patients are not supposed to die post-op because they are supposed to be sufficiently screened and risks evaluated to prevent just that (barring a life-threatening emergency situation, gunshot wound, when such pre-surgical clearance cannot be completed). (see also "First do no harm") "Killer nurses" have been around for ... well, there was that recent masterpiece show ... a very long time ... sometimes "angels of mercy" ... but that doesn't apply to healthy post-op patients found dead. eta: A physician is expected to defer signing a death certificate if the cause of death is not fairly obvious ... in these cases, since insulin was used, there would be no physical findings to indicate cause of death. In the state where I worked, in fact, all deaths within a certain number of hours/days of surgery were reportable to the coroner (who usually simply talked to the attending, but who could order a desired autopsy against the family's wishes (attending physician can't). It was simply routine to notify the coroner in the event of a whole list of circumstances, and physicians uncomfortable with assigning a cause of death could refuse, forcing the coroner's hand (they were always overloaded with cases (unattended deaths) and not eager to take on nice simple hospital deaths)

Yes, married boyfriend used a key and Joan had a sparkling-new hair-do, wardrobe and apartment furnishings, as far as I could tell ... all very "mod" and unstuffy. All her talk about "going abroad" indicated she not only had money, she had money sufficient to make getting-a-job and settling down not immediately necessary. Evans did a very good job of conveying trying to "take it all in" and figure out how any of this gibed with the Joan he was expecting, the Joan he thought he knew (and yearned to kiss) and who, protests otherwise aside, had called him gasping but speechless only days earlier. She, again, might have kissed him; she didn't. Hard to know how much time has passed in Endeavor land but I'd guess 4-6 weeks, if that. Joan is a grown-up, even if still living at home and she left a note asking them to not attempt to find her. I'm curious about Mrs. Thursday's apparent decompensation -- seems a bit over the top for an otherwise sensible woman dealing with abrupt onset of empty-nest midlife crisis. Again, no mention of the son/brother (that I heard) is also curious; see also, no mention that children growing up and leaving home really is what's supposed to happen. Tempting to wonder if Mrs. Thursday perhaps has a history of a prior breakdown (post-partum depression maybe?), which might explain Thursday's stoic passivity (although "British stiff upper lip" covers a lot of bases). eta: "Mistress to a married boyfriend" beats "high-price call girl" any day .... I didn't recognize said boyfriend -- did anyone?

As I recall, Morse was a scholarship boy ... his family's "means" were quite modest (judging from the episode(s) in which he traveled home for his father's final illness ... he wasn't "posh" at all. I'm rather dreading next week's season finale ... Seems Morse leaves a certain amount of devastation in his wake and I'm not sure how Thursday/Morse's professional relationship can/will survive this, however, it does presage Morse's prediliction for not-so-innocent damsels -- Who'd have guessed Joan had a by-any-means-necessary wild side ... but then there was that phone call. I was disappointed in the mystery in this episode ... nuf said ... except agree the sweetpeas would have been noted and become big what's wrong with this picture red flag (not really requiring that "old photo" to make the connection since it wasn't much more and possibly less than 10 years ago) nuf. I missed mention of pregnancy and/or termination/abortion but how refreshing for it to be so forgettable ... still, for a girl from a traditional conservative family, it might well feel like no-going-back "my own person/my own life" you-don't-own-me milestone (as has been for many young women)

I wanted to add that I read my first Colin Dexter / Morse book maybe 6 months ago, and probably will not read more. I found that Morse much more sexist and more along the "too clever by half" mold ... Thaw's Morse (like Suchet's Poirot) seems to have left some of his more disagreeable qualities behind (I was checking GoodReads). We saw in earlier episodes that he was often short tempered, rude and even belittling of Lewis until he got over himself (or the writers responded to audience feedback that messing with Kevin Whatley was not.acceptable).

Funny, I don't see him "latching on" to women so much as being an healthy, heterosexual, unmarried male of a certain age who likes female companionship but also, to an extent, "does his duty"** taking women to concerts and out for meals, not actually looking for a partner (and not attracted to women who want a sturdy dependable husband to deal with manly things, much less a ring), but rather aware that he "should" have some sort of social life outside of work and Lewis. He seemed careful to not engage with women under "false pretenses" that these relationships would lead to cohabitation (after all these years of single batchelorhood). I do think that occasionally he's terrified of ending up all alone in some old folks home ... but perish that thought. He's attracted to women, even sometimes a bit besotted, but "in love" ... I don't think so, not really. YMMV. ** perhaps to head off any would-be matchmakers? eta: Morse reminds me of my father who was also much like Harry Haller, the main character in Hesse's Steppenwolf ... a man both drawn to a well-kept home and a good meal (domesticity) but also rather repelled and fightened by the such complacency. Endeavor was never going to grow up to be Thursday with his devoted wife and 2 children ,,, why? dunno. Part of his chemistry, I guess, and an already palpable difficulty in making full happy commitment.

finally (at least 3 weeks after the last episode) saw the finale -- gosh, what sop ... disappointing and unlikely ... really Karl? Really A-OK with Elise's "romance" when she is being played like a top? Really? All somehow part of 'becoming human'? lord have mercy, malarkey ... Can I trust this is not coming back for a third season?

arggh ... more crazy (evil, homicidally inclined) person does crazy (evil, homicidally inclined) things because they're crazy luv-struck (evil, homicidally inclined) superfan ... it doesn't make sense that the chocolates would not have been inspected (and tampering found) since the "death threat" note (I'm pretty sure) was received prior to the TV gig -- and -- I think her most incendiary threats to have the group banned from TV altogether were made during that TV gig (when the chocolates had already been prepared and were being delivered) and in any event of uncertain power to actually damage the group (or keep them off the air) ... also why laxatives, when she had LSD readily at hand? Nevermind -- it was clumsy and unlikely and illogical ... I'm going to stop trying to "figure it out" since doing so just makes me peevish.

Entirely conjecture -- We were give so little information wrt why Joan felt the need to leave home right there and then that I'm suspecting she may have, in fact, been either running away from some left-over business wrt the bank robbery ... some unknown complication or involvement ... or running to meet up with someone who is providing for her ... maybe ... a refuge or dependency or even some romantic entanglement (???) that may have quickly become intolerable ... The phone call certainly suggested Morse-bait of the misunderstood damsel-in-distress ... given Morse's usual bad-picker when it comes to irresistable women (as opposed to the nice women who would eagerly meet his every need) ... Joan may turn out to have a "tipped halo"

I'd forgotten about that "girl in the dressing room" part ... It seemed so heavy-handed but fitting for it to have been the daughter ... but "now that you mention it ..." There was a lot of heavy-handedness ... absolutely knew the lemonade was spiked and then was wondering if he had done some magic trick drinking but not drinking when it failed to take hold. Not in the mood to be picky ... it's one of the only shows that manages to keep my interest for the duration (too often, with other shows, I find that I've simply wandered off to check the internet and lost the thread)

The Super-Fan sexual jealousy frustrated a spot-on subtle depiction of just how homophobic the 1960's were ... in fact, it was a time of fairly peak post-war macho posturing with James Bond rather than John Wayne as role model (see the James Coburn, Flynt movies for still-sexist "thinking man's" counterpoint) ... which was part of what incited the feminist movement in the late 60's as women (who had been raised to believe they were equals) often found themselves sidelined or treated like helpers, even in the anti-war movement. Looking on the internet, there were a few (mostly rumored rather than "out") bisexuals (which was often half-closeted, excusing and explaining the "embarrassment" of being caught with a same sex partner) ... still not many openly gay pop stars ... I thought the chocolates were laced with laxatives by the daughter who didn't mean to kill the pastor but who died because of pre-existing health problems, death triggered by the megadose of laxatives (??? because he's a glutton)

I think Morse and Thursday's estrangment is two-sided because Morse has also just -- sledgehammer -- realized he's in love with Joan so he's afraid of being "too interested" or "too concerned" knowing that this will -- entirely separately -- make Thursday go ballistic ... so he can ask Mrs. Thursday "Any word?" only when out of range ... I would guess that Thursday interprets Morse's low mood/awkwardness as guilty-conscience (rather than grief and love-sick) ... ymmv

Loved the photography, or I guess cinematography. It looked like a subtle (thank you) Kodachrome effect that made the colors pop and seem 1960's along with the lux "moderne" interiors ... it was really a feast for the eyes, but not (actually) over the top (when it becomes distracting). Love the name plate photograph that looks like a vaguely "perfect Oxford sunny afternoon" watercolor. Thursday blames Morse for not stopping or at least detaining Joan, rather than letting her disappear into the mists. Morse obviously feels quite bad, which seem to enrage Thursday further *and * Morse may well be leaving too (and good riddence!!) which is another loss. Where is the Thursday son? or sons? There was at least one and, pretty sure, he was younger than Joan ... It was a very well balanced and modulated episode ... skirting "outlandishness" but managing to not fall off that cliff ... YMMV.

Brief interview with Poesy in the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/aug/06/clemence-poesy-final-portrait-brexit-le-pen-interview Still haven't seen the finale of season 2, not tomorrow but a week from tomorrow ... I've totally lost track of the story ... thanks bunches PBS .. for nothing.

forgot to post ... Kebab seems to be a generic term for a middle-eastern takeout joint -- a Kebab Shop -- versus an Indian takeout -- A Curry Shop. They sell actual kebabs but most of the photos looked a lot more like Shwarma (a sort of spit-roasted rotisseried meat which is shaved off from the spit), made into a pita bread sandwich with salad and sauce, served up in styrofoam takeout containers, much like falafel. Considered late night/early early morning "hangover food" ... At least the lettuce is fresh (maybe)

yes, I discovered from Wikipedia that the man being drugged, abused, tortured and then injected with the hemorrhagic fever was Fournier .... didn't recognize him ... utterly baffled... came here to ask "who was that man??" but decided to consult Wikipedia before admitting my cluelessness ... They're not holding my attention well and I hate the "ruin Karl's marriage" angle ... although personally, I'm beyond ready to dump his hyper-reactive wife ...

It's curious and disturbing to see the character Geordie normalizing police brutality. After 09/11 here in the USA, Law and Order similarly toughened and roughened it's detectives (and prosecutors) to the point where I stopped watching. It was as-if they decided that all that constitution/civil rights respecting legal system was not tough-enough to deal with terrorism ... so, suddenly Fontana was much more graphically roughing up suspect and violating the law in pursuit of the bad guys. I'd say we know how those attitudes turned out for the nation. I've wondered aloud (on these boards) about the almost nostalgic references to "The Krays" and organized crime of the 1960's (and the all-too-crooked Metropolitan Police as often referenced in Endeavor, but also elsewhere, George Gently comes to mind). There's an odd tobacco and whiskey breath nostalgia for that time when-men-were-men and cops were -- oddly enough -- quite corrupt. I don't know if ITV is pandering to the American audience in this or if there's also an appetite for this sort of bloodied knuckled copper in the UK as well, or for part of the UK audience that watches these "cosy" mysteries. Anyone have any insights? Policemen who gratuitously beat up suspects, deny them medical attention and/or protection from other prisoners can't be redeemed in my book because they catch bad-guys. Agree that the teacher/kidnapper made no sense at all since a man who lost a child would probably not be that callous with the feeling of the kidnapped child's parents, or the child's trauma at being spirited away from all he knows . What was his plan for next week, next month, etc. -- Crazy folks doing crazy things because they're crazy doesn't work for me ... nor grief stricken folks doing crazy things because they're grief stricken ... lazy plot device.

I was again struck by the lack of chemistry (going through the motions but without depth) between Sidney and Amanda, particularly after he has broken up with the woman who has -- according to the plot -- consumed him for years and damn near completely altered the course of his life ... apparently "no regret" as he's all smiles at the wedding ... pontificating about "love" ... deary me. Sidney's word apparently isn't worth a tinker's dam ... even if you don't like Amanda, he's too old and in too responsible a position to be acting like his words and actions are without consequence ... An Amanda Suicide Attempt pinned on him would serve him right ... Yes, I'm pissed that she didn't get to kick him to the curb ... instead she's the one who got dumped ... Why realign back to status quo if there's to be no 4th season or a 4th season with a different vicar? Could Geordie and Leonard be a Mutt-and-Jeff team?