nara
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Posts posted by nara
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Claire and Jamie have only been married 2 days, betrothed a day before that, and were friends for 6 weeks. I know we're far more familiar with Jamie and Claire's relationship than we are with Frank and Claire's, but I don't think there's much competition as of yet.
True, but after all the sex, I needed a reminder of that fact!
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Another excellent episode! The Emmys are a long time from now, but I’m anticipating Golden Globes nominations…
• My feeling of dread began at the warning at the beginning of the episode, when it was clear that there would be a rape scene, and didn’t lift until the end of the episode. This episode holds the record for the number of times I yelled at the television screen!
• I really enjoyed seeing Frank’s side of things. I know that others thought there was too much of Frank, but I loved it seeing that he had not forgotten his wife. It was a good follow-up to wedding night between Claire and Jamie and a reminder that Jamie is not the only man who loves her. I did think it was perhaps foolish to antagonize the policemen whom he wants to look into Claire’s disappearance. I liked the false lead that the woman provided, but I was a little skeptical that an army intelligence officer would be so easily duped. The idea that he might go to a dark alley with £1500 was driving me nuts. However, Frank proved himself in the fight scene. I was literally yelling encouragement to Frank as he beat up those bad guys! It was great to see him as a man of action, and not just a scholar. I couldn’t quite see the weapon he was using. Could anyone tell what it was?
• Like everyone else, I adore Roger Wakefield. He is such a cutie. Between him and Hamish, my maternal instincts are well satisfied. Am I the only one who hopes he ends up being a descendent of Claire and Jamie?
• I liked that the Reverend’s housekeep told Frank about Craig Na Dun, but I was hoping that she would also tell him about Claire’s hand and the curious love line and life line. Frank has her hand memorized and that would mean something to him. It would give some credibility to what she said.
• I enjoyed the character Hugh and I hope he reappears—he’s too interesting to be a throwaway character. I thought the dragonfly in amber was gorgeous and the color of it was marvelous against that faded colors of the background and their clothes.
• In the attack scene, I really liked how Rupert continued his story without missing a beat as the men prepared for the fight. They did not give away the fact that they knew there were thieves until they were ready to go after them. There’s a good lesson there… I was laughing so hard at how pleased Ned was with himself. And I’m glad that someone finally thought about teaching Claire to defend herself. Angus proved himself very knowledgeable and a good teacher. We also got the pleasure of hearing what was perhaps the world’s first “That’s what she said” joke, courtesy of Rupert. Somewhere, Michael Scott is happy!
• The rape scene was difficult to watch, but very well done. I felt so terrible for Claire going through that terror. Claire’s anger and shock were very well acted by Caitriona and Sam did a great job too, with his shaky voice. I kept yelling at the screen for someone to cover her with a blanket and give her some alcohol. I also felt so bad for Jamie for once again being unable to defend a woman he loved. The fact that Claire later reminded him that she had to defend herself absolutely broke my heart. I had been enjoying how happy they were with each other and their easy affection, and I hope that this doesn’t create a real rift between them. The fact that he made her promise she would be there when he returned was very telling. It showed that he realized that he had lost her (at least partially) and there was a good chance she would leave him. And we saw that she made her choice that she wanted to be Claire Randall and not Claire Fraser when she ran towards Craig Na Dun, though I wonder if that would have been her choice if the rape had not happened. I thought that Dougal’s comment about what becomes of people who break oaths to king and country was very interesting—although he wants Charles Stuart on the throne and is willing to fight the British, he clearly still respects the authority of kings and the importance of oaths and loyalty.
• Frank and Claire almost reaching each other was powerful. I thought it was a great juxtaposition of the two different timelines. Although I like her better with Jamie, I was really happy that she heard Frank calling her name through the stones. I thought for sure that the episode would end with reaching towards the rocks, so I was pleasantly surprised when it continued for a while longer, but frustrated when she was stopped just short of touching the stones.
• BJR continues to horrify me, but I do like the fact that he finally mentioned the elephant in the room—the fact that Claire is wearing her gold wedding ring. It’s about time someone mentioned that fact! Why on earth does Claire think she can outsmart him? I knew the moment he mentioned the Duke’s wife that she was toast. AAARRRGH! Why couldn’t she have pretended that she got her orders from the Duke (who she knew existed) regardless of whether they really came from his wife (who, as it turns out, didn’t exist). The moment when Jamie arrived at the window and BJR’s glee at seeing whose wife he had was just awesome. I’m hoping that BJR’s orders to the corporal to not come back regardless of what he hears will work against BJR when Jamie (I hope) kicks his butt in episode 9. Looking forward to the return on April 4!-
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Uh oh. Are we going to have to commit you over the hiatus?
Nah! I'll pull out the crackpot theories, wear a theme Halloween costume, and dress in Claire-inspired clothes for the winter to get by!
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I must say you have all given much more thought to this whole forced/arranged marriage between Jamie and Claire. Me? I just go with the flow.
If the show says : this is this and that is that ---I don't even think to question!
Then how do you pass the time between episodes? Overanalyzing the episodes is the only thing keeping me from going nuts! ;)
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Well, they didn't read banns, so it's not like Randall knows yet that one James AMM Fraser, whipping boy, has married Claire. The paperwork was done that day — did they really send a rider to give the Scottish middle finger to Randall immediately?
The situation escalates in the books before the question even comes up, so hole closed.
When Dougal propositioned Claire, he said he'd just come back from visiting BJR. He gave him the finger in person.
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Yeah, that plot hole continues to bug. I guess Dougal tells Randall that she's married to Collum's nephew and nothing more. Randall possibly knows that Jamie is Collum and Dougal's nephew since Dougal was present at the flogging, but I'm not 100% on this. Also, Jamie listed two other MacKenzie sisters Janet and Jocasta(?) during the tell-me-about-your-family montage (I watched it with closed captioning) so it's not like Jamie is the only possible nephew they could be marrying off. BJR was awfully quick to recall "that boy" last week though, so I wouldn't put it past him to make the connection. I just think it's silly to treat BJR's current interest to catch Claire as a very serious threat, while ignoring the looming danger BJR poses to Jamie, especially after we saw his twisted infatuation with breaking him last week. Like, you must save Claire lest you want BJR to ask her questions! Which is much worse than the flogging and hanging you'll receive if he finds out we have you! To me it paints an even bigger target on both of their backs.
This does appear to be the biggest plot hole. Hoping they'll fill it soon. However, I don't know if Dougal and Jamie know the extent of BJR's obsession with Jamie. It's not clear if Claire gave them the details of her conversation with him. If they realized how clearly BJR remembers Jamie, I think they'd be much more concerned.
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So I've been thinking about Jamie's virginity a lot. Maybe too much, heh, but I am wondering about some of the choices made. I can sort of understand that he is still a virgin maybe because of his back or the price on his head etc. but he is an expert kisser and even says he wasn't a monk. I find it hard to believe during his make out sessions there were no roaming hands. Some tart didn't slip her hand up his kilt or the other way around? No dry humping face to face? Had plenty of those times in my youth.
He seems a little too naive as to positions and orgasms. Considering how rough and crude his buddies are you think he have seen or heard a bit more over the years. He's not a 15 year old stable lad who's never been off the farm. When he comes down for food after the first time, Rupert asked, did ya bleed? Then Angus teases, while you're filling your face with food maybe I'll go upstairs and fill mine, complete with tongue action. He doesn't appear shocked so he has some idea of basic female anatomy.
He even says they gave him advice on the big night. I'm sure they gave him hell but they do seem to care for him very much. Each one went out of their way to make the wedding special. Even Dougal ponied up some money for the church windows. I would pay good money to see mentioned sex talks. If one minute the guys have said women don't like it but then you throw in the typical crude oral sex joke I call shenanigans.
I noticed that Angus is the one who made the oral sex joke, but he is not one of the men (Murtagh, Rupert, Ned) who think women do not enjoy sex. Coincidence? Maybe not!
Jamie's knowledge is a little inconsistent. However, if a boy is actively trying to remain a virgin until married, he might not seek out opportunities to learn more because they might create too much temptation. Especially if he's older like Jamie, it probably becomes increasingly harder to ask questions without embarrassing himself. He might even laugh at jokes without fully understanding them, just to avoid the embarrassment of not knowing things. He clearly knows the basics, like what goes where, and has instincts about what he himself would enjoy. However, he may have made assumptions based on what he saw with animals and just not asked questions. Also, he may think of oral sex and other stuff as things you do when you can't have real sex, as opposed to part of a complete repertoire.
I have to say, I'm really glad that his activities with Laoghaire do not appear to have gone as far as I assumed they had!
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Separately, having been commissioned by a wealthy patron, the dress also was much more elaborate than most, and the people gathered were also in some wonder.
On the subject of the origin of the dress, when the brothel owner mentioned that it was commissioned by a lord for his wife, did anyone else have a moment of fear that the dress was purchased by BJR for his wife?
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Dress was fine but not really as sensational as all the hype.
I actually thought the dress was gorgeous and wonderfully intricate. I'd totally wear it if I had the body for it (and a grudge against my breasts--jk!) or maybe a more modern version that wasn't quite so tight. However, I agree--they overhyped the dress. I think it would be different if she had made a grand entry into the church and been escorted down the aisle by Dougal or Ned and if she had been smiling. Then, the situation and her demeanor would have made the dress look dazzling. But there was no need for all the secrecy because the dress was not placed at the center of attention.
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It isn't the taking the clothes off that would bother me. It is putting the damn things on in the first place. When Jamie left to go downstairs the morning after, all I could think of was who helps her get into those 17th century horrors, known as corsets, w/o Mrs. Fitz around?
I thought the same thing! On a slightly related note, I was a little bummed that they couldn't get back to Castle Leoch for the wedding. I kinda missed Mrs. Fitz fussing over Claire and helping her with the wedding. I would have also liked Geillis's commentary on the wedding. Both of those ladies have been eyeing Jamie and Claire with knowing looks since the 2nd or 3rd episodes.
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It was fine, but it wasn't the most erotic thing ever, like it had been built up to be. I was expecting a bit more of what Carrie Bradshaw called the "20-Something Guy" phenomenon -- enthusiastic kissing, exploring, etc. I get that this is his first time and all, but they're sitting apart talking, and then jumping right into sex. And then sitting apart talking more. Then more insta-sex. Then talking. Then insta-sex.
Agreed that I'm not sure how an 18th c. man who picked up sex tips from a barn would have any comprehension about that.
My impression was that, after understanding it wasn't pain, he saw the similarity to his own orgasms (with which he's familiar) and realized that it was pleasure.
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I am completely onboard with how Jamie and Claire were presented in this episode - I think you folks have said all that already, and I don't want to repeat. But I am more than slightly peeved at how Dougal is being presented. I know it is annoying to be such a book purist, but I hate how TV seems to feel a need to simplify things. I always thought that book Dougal was a really intricate creation of a character - fully rounded, and totally gray in his motivations and actions. I feel like the show has wanted to simplify him too much - he is being painted in darker and darker shades... and it is the one thing that is upsetting me amidst this otherwise spectacular adaptation.
Not a book reader so I don't know how Dougal behaves in the books (in any case, that's probably better discussed in another thread) but I actually don't think that him hitting on Claire is that bad or evidence of him being portrayed as darker.
Don't get me wrong, my first reaction to that scene was WTF, but when you think about it, his behavior kind of makes sense. He has no idea of the interaction between Claire and Jamie in the bedroom and that they have started to bond. Yes, they clearly consummated the marriage, but Dougal was the one who instructed (forced, even) them to do so. She was miserable throughout the wedding, so anyone would be justified in believing that she had no affection for Jamie and was taking no pleasure from the sex. From his perspective, offering her some fun on the side was not such a horrible thing. Terribly tactless to do it right after the wedding, but I'll put that down to the requirements of episodic television.
Part of me wonders whether they're emphasizing the Dougal + Claire interaction due to the chemistry between the 2 actors. Many people on this forum have commented on that, so it would surprise me if the showrunners didn't notice the same thing and capitalize on it. (Personally, I am Team Jamie all the way!)
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The other thing that crossed my mind? How long since either of them had had a bath? They must have reeked. And the furs they were lying on must have been quite crusty. Eww.
Jamie had clearly shaved for the occasion, so I'm going to assume he bathed too.
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Shocked that Claire enjoyed the first go. It looked accurate for a male virgin, but really, she liked the stabbing and the crushing? I wondered if she being truthful or just making him feel better.
So many women could identify with that kind of sex - it may get you bothered but it doesnt get you OFF. Well, at least the undressing scene was hot - nice foreplay.
I'm not a book reader but I thought for sure that Claire was going to teach Jaime about her magic button.
I'm so over vaginal orgasms on TV. 75% of women don't have them.
I wanted them to show him learning how to do her oral or masturbate her. Would have been way hotter.
I think she was being truthful that she enjoyed the first time even though she was tactful about not mentioning the lack of orgasm. The fact that she berated herself for being a bigamist, adulteress, and enjoying the sex right afterwards supports this idea because she wouldn't have to lie to herself.
As for teaching Jamie other stuff, that's what the next few episodes are for...
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I just want to thank the actors for putting their bodies out there for my gratification. Very brave thing to do.
It was so nice to see Jamie getting laid instead of getting flayed.
(And did you see where she bit him? Good laird I'm hungry!)
I can't imagine that such scenes are easy to do. However, the events in this episode seem to be critical in order for us to believe the shift in Claire and Jamie's relationship, so I too appreciate the actors for being so brave. I'm also inspired to hit the gym!
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That was a great episode!
At first, I was a little put off about the flashback style. Then, I realized that, without it, the last 30 minutes would have been one long sex scene, and I really believe this worked better and showed their increasing intimacy, culminating with the gift of the pearls and the confession by Jamie that Claire is precious to him. Until then, he made it seem like he was simply marrying her to protect her.
Episode 6 belonged to Tobias and Caitriona. This one belonged to Sam. His expressions absolutely made the episode, in my book.
The Ceremony:
- I felt sad that Claire did not smile once during her wedding. :( At least a friendly smile to Jamie would have been nice.
- Beautiful ceremony and the dress was gorgeous. I would have liked a "grand entry into the church" so we could have been wowed with a full shot of the dress before they zoomed in on the details. However, the conversation between Jamie and her worked well too. I loved his description of seeing her and the fact that he remembered every detail. I loved how Dougal and Murtagh gave each other a look after seeing her dress.
- One thing that was odd --she said she didn't know his name, but she had seen it on the marriage contract. That seemed like a missed detail unless I misunderstood something.
- I loved that they had a passionate kiss at the end of the ceremony and that was what gave Jamie some hope.
- I was really disappointed that Claire was drunk at her own wedding. Girl needs to join Alcoholics Anonymous! I hope that going forward, she'll avoid the alcohol because she won't need to desensitize herself to her life with Jamie.
- I thought the Murtagh scene talking about Jamie's mother was very moving. Given how gruff he's been to Claire, it was really nice to see how open and big-hearted he is when it's just him and Jamie.
- Jamie's three conditions were awesome. A true romantic! I can see why women have loved him for 20 years. I especially liked Ned's visit to the brothel. I didn't even mind the gratuitous whore nudity because it was so hilarious. Smart move to send Ned on that errand. Rupert and Angus would never have emerged from the brothel!
- Battle of the Bible between Willie and the drunk priest was great. It reminded me of those rap battles when then have to spontaneously make up rhymes. :)
- Does anyone know why the ring was put on her right hand?
The Consummation:
- I loved how awkward things were between Claire and Jamie at first and his sadness that she had to drink so much in order to be with him. That Jamie is certainly the most modest man in Scotland, and possibly all fiction. I do think Claire could have confessed to Jamie that part of her hesitance was that she felt guilty about her dead husband. It might have made him feel less insecure and realize that it wasn't a lack of attraction to him that was making her drink.
- I would have really liked to hear more of the stories that Jamie was telling Claire about his family and what she told him.
- I laughed out loud when Jamie confessed that he thought they would have sex like horses. Although I didn't get my scene with Murtagh and the others giving him advice on the wedding night (see the Episode 6 thread), I appreciate the fact that Jamie referred to such a scene. Please let it be an additional scene on the DVD!
- I thought it was interesting in the scene with Dougal and Ned that Jamie appeared to be a little surprised that the marriage would be consummated and expressed some doubt that Claire understood that.
- Sex scenes were very well done. Very hot, but not gratuitous. Showed the increasing passion and feeling very well. The makers of this show should teach a master class (and the makers of Game of Thrones and every other show should attend)!
- I liked the way the Claire was initially very reluctant, but by the end was really initiating the sex.
Interaction with others
- Did not quite understand why Claire went out of the room in her shift. Surely, she would know better than that!
- Angus wanted to see her breasts--typical! LOL.
- In an earlier episode thread, I mentioned the idea of a triangle with Jamie, Claire, and Dougal. Based on his actions after the wedding, I gotta say that I think I was on track. Completely despicable behavior on his part. I did think it interesting that he didn't avail himself of the opportunity to marry her, but still wanted to have sex with her. If it is true that he had an affair with his sister-in-law and fathered Hamish (which is just a theory at this point) then he may have a pattern of behavior with married women...He doesn't want the commitment, just the sex. Not happy with him!
Other stuff
- What was with the key? Did I miss something or is that a mystery for later?
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One question on this episode that I didn't understand. Where did the English General and Lutenant Foster run off to after Claire went to help the injured red coat. Did I miss that part? I find it hard to believe that Lutenant Foster - at least - wouldn't want to find out what happened to her.
They went off to find the Scottish raiding party that killed a couple of soldiers and injured the man who had to be amputated.
On a side note, there was a lot of conversation about what Lieutenant Foster was doing in the Scottish village where they first met him. Seeing how nice he was (again) in this episode and how disposed to believing that the Scots treated Claire well made me think that maybe he's got a lassie in that village...
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As a minor diversion from the marriage talk, at the start of the episode the camera was panning around a room and ended on some objects laying by a window, one of which was (I assume) Claire's 20th century watch. Was the implication that BJR has it?
Wow! Good eye. I have no POV on this, but wanted to compliment your observation skills.
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We should have had a scene where Dougal asks for a volunteer to marry the sassanach. Everyone takes a step back except Jamie who is too busy mending his shirt for the millionth time.
If that scene happened, there would be a Katniss Everdeen-style "I VOLUNTEER!!!!" from Jamie.
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This is my thing. All parties involved on the Scot side know that they're running a scam on the English. If all it takes is a bunch of drunk witnesses and a priest held at dirk point to tell the English that the Lady is married, then that's all they have to do. If all it takes is to wave a 3 page handwritten contract in illegible type, then she can be married to Scooby Doo for all it matters. If the marriage has to be legal, and had to have a legal contract with their legal names, that means the possibility exists that upon news that Claire is now a Scot, BJR could demand to see the contract. It doesn't mean he will. But the possibility is there, otherwise what's the point of having the proof. And when he sees the contract, then the Clan will run into even more trouble trying to hold onto both Claire and Jamie. For Jamie's case, a known crime has been committed on his part, so there's nothing that Scot's law can do to protect him from being handed over. That's why although there are some political advantages for Dougal. There's a real immediate inconvenience to using Jamie as a pawn right now, when they're better off keeping him off the radar when tempting the English.
The consummation thing is ridiculous too, because really all they have to do is say that it's consummated. Claire's not a virgin, so it's not like they'll have bloody bed linens to wave out the window. If Claire were trying to deceive Jamie into marrying her so she'd have protection without Jamie knowing that it's a sham, then, yes, the whole consummation thing would be an issue. But he knows too, so the contrivance is a bit silly. Shut up Claire, you want to have sex with him, don't pretend.
That said, I love forced marriage tropes, I think they're a lot of fun, and I'm excited to see this go down. It's just the arrangement doesn't make sense given the immediate peril it's supposed to resolve. Oh no we need to stop them from taking Claire, let's throw another person they're looking for into the spotlight with her! This won't backfire at all!
I'm going to assume that a fake marriage would be considered by the Scots to be an affront to God for making a sham of a sacred union--and just go with it!
I bet they're going to consummate the heck out of the marriage, just to ensure that there are no doubters! ;)
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...presumably, to serve the story by allowing her to hook up with Jamie and yet prevent the scarlet letter of adultery from attaching to her. It's just a bit disingenuous. I just find all the contortions and hokey rationales for Why She Must Have Sex With Jamie unnecessary. She's an adult woman who has no real certainty of ever seeing her husband again. Jamie is kind to her, intelligent, and easy on the eyes. I don't really think she needs an excuse or narrative permission to be with Jamie.
Based on the non-fiction reading I've done, I do think that the consummation of marriage issue is a real issue, BUT I also think that the reason she ends up agreeing is because it's Jamie. She has not yet acknowledged this to herself, but she's attracted to Jamie. The attempts to "encourage" his interest in Laoghaire, the constant meaningful looks, etc. all reek of school-girl crush. Yes, it would have probably been more meaningful if she had to make a conscious decision to be with him, rather than have to accept a forced marriage. However, judging from the angry reaction to the idea of marrying Dougal and the lack thereof when it was Jamie, her attraction is at least a factor in her decision-making process. In my book, it's almost the same as making a conscious decision. I haven't read the books, but I think that she will acknowledge at some point in the story that she's always wanted him and she wasn't as "forced" as she likes to pretend.
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It's beginning to be kind of a joke how Claire gets tipsy in every episode.
It probably has to do with the fact that rhenish (spelling?) is the only luxury, so she indulges in it. Also, she's deliberately trying to desensitize herself to her fear and the loss of her life and husband.
Regarding all the comments on Claire's foolishness with the English officers, I interpreted it as putting her own needs and goals aside to stand up for what's right. I'd call it courage. It reminded me of all people who've fought for civil rights and been arrested, beaten, killed, etc.--I would still call them heroes even though they paid a heavy price for standing up for the cause.
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There's a character named Brian Fraser in the credits for this episode. I don't remember him being mentioned, but I assume he's in the scene where Jamie gets whipped and is a relative of his. Did anyone spot him in the episode? (I think I found him on IMDB, but was not able to embed the image here.) I wonder if he's Jamie's father. Please, no spoilers from anyone who knows the truth. :)
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I couldn't watch the flogging at all. I put it on fast forward. Torture is not something I can handle, even if it is happening to fictional characters.
If so, you've missed some fantastic dialogue. Maybe try listening without watching the horror?
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S01.E08: Both Sides Now
in Outlander
I didn't see this particular incident as anti-English, but more about the lack of honor that deserters have in all aspects of their life. First, they betray king and country, then they rape a woman and kill her husband. It's designed to bring some doubt about the witness Horrocks that causes Claire to be left behind with just Willie to guard her, giving her a chance to run to Craigh na Dun.