nara
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Posts posted by nara
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Is there a difference? Perception is reality?
In my mind, there is a subtle difference. If it's their real-time perception, it would not be influenced by future events, but a memory can be influenced by later events. For example, once Alison knows that she pushed Scotty in front of a car, it might color her memories of him as him being more threatening, so that his death is more justified.
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Am I the only one who hates the recaps here? I realize this series is flawed, but I choose to watch it and I choose to discuss it. I wish they could find two people who don't hate watch every episode to recap it...
The recappers were particularly bad this episode. But it's easily solved--I'm going to stop reading their recaps. :)
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Although I don't believe the House of the Rising Sun scene unfolded exactly as Alison remembered, I actually think it's realistic that Cole would do nothing while Scotty sang. I have been at a couple of weddings at which someone sang something completely inappropriate and everyone just let the moment pass to avoid a conflict. At least while Scotty was singing, he wasn't getting into a fight or drinking more. It was uncomfortable, but Cole and Scotty beating each other up would have been much worse.
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Really excellent episode in my opinion.
I know that a lot posters didn't like the confession, but I thought it was quite in keeping with a man who wants to be seen as great and is rather reckless. I do think it would have been better to end the season with him having made up his mind, but the audience not knowing what he decided. Then they could have started the next season with the confession.
I am so annoyed with Noah and Helen for driving when they shouldn't have been. Apparently neither of them learns anything from past mistakes--they are perfect for each other. I do like the drunk driving didn't come out of nowhere. We have seen that they have both been reckless in the past. (By the way, does Alison not know how to drive? I don't think we've ever seen her drive--she's always walking, riding a bike, or being driven places.)
This is very late to be asking, but do we know if the POVs refer to how they remember events or how they perceive the events at the time? Alison's perception of Scotty's behavior during his (beautiful) song and even by the side of the road was very threatening. If it's a memory, it's possible she remembers him as more threatening than he was (trying to rape her) even if that is not the case.
There are many huge discrepancies between Noah's and Alison's versions of the paternity conversation. The one I find interesting is that in his version he was told he might not be the father and is hers she told him that he was not the father.
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I really loved this episode, though I initially thought it was slow paced.
It made sense that Quinn would not survive everything he faced this season. I will miss the character a lot, but many people had posted that it was ridiculous that he kept surviving...I'm glad they spent their time on this storyline rather than rushing it-- he deserved the focus.
The greying of Astrid by her forcing Laura to besmirch that innocent man to save Numa was pretty powerful. She was the only "good"character left.
I liked the end to Alison -- 1) she deserved to die for allowing the attack to happen 2) it showed how ruthless Saul could be.
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Agreed, except I didn't see this as just a single fight; I saw it as the last straw for Max. A realization that while he was friend to Noah, a good friend actually, all these years Noah wasn't much of a friend in return - at least for the past couple of years.
Max was heartbroken about Helen and Noah showing up blathering all about his problems with Allison, like he has been doing for over two years now, and "by the way, Helen has a new boyfriend, blah blah blah me, blah blah, Me me me..." I think that was more than Max could take. He gave Noah a chance to console him, to be a friend when he confessed his feelings for Helen and Noah's reaction was all about himself. After all that, I really don't blame Max for not keeping Noah's secrets.
Good points, but there's something about the last minute nature of his testimony that bugs me. And it suddenly occurs to me that Max may not have known of Helen's role in Noah's defense until the trial started. Could he be hurting Noah because he knows that it would hurt Helen?
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I really enjoyed this episode because several of the things for which I had been hoping happened.
- Cole seems genuinely happy and stable--though I agree with some other posters that it's a little jarring to see him so cheerful after seeing him moody for so long. I'm glad that he wanted to take Luisa to see his mother. He needs to make up with his family, IMO.
- I loved the return of the mothers. I liked that Cherry went out and got a job, rather than moping about her misfortunes. I was hoping that Cole would say that he's proud of her. Yes, it's bad that she's enabling Scotty, but she's like many loved ones of addicts, so although I think she's foolish, I can sympathize with her dilemma. I also liked seeing Helen's mom from Cole's perspective. She seemed genuinely interested in doing something nice for Luisa. Others seem to find that unbelievable, but I think it's normal to take an interest in someone she's seen grow up from a little girl to a smart young woman. I did expect her to thank Cole for pointing a gun at Noah--but that might have been unrealistic. She seems to have grown more than other characters on this show. I hope that we see her and Helen reuinited.
- Luisa's comment about being glad that the ranch is gone--completely bitchy and uncalled for. I like Luisa's effect on Cole, but I find her obnoxious at times.
- Loved the Max Noah convo. I had complained a couple episodes ago that Max was becoming boring, and this was a good recovery for his character. (After all, the actor did full frontal nudity for this role--he deserved some good scenes to show off his acting ability!) As a secret Max-Helen shipper even from Season 1 (Melen? Hax?), I was glad to see that his feelings were genuine. I also thought that Noah's reaction was normal too, though irrational. I don't believe he has any interest in getting back together with Helen, but the fact that Helen could have had other options was clearly disconcerting. I wouldn't be surprised if he recasts the entire situation as "I sensed that there was something going on between Helen and Max (even if it wasn't actual infidelity) and that was why I was unhappy and vulnerable to Alison." I am a little surprised if this fight was enough to make Max testify against him--there's got to be more.
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Unless the lawyer had access to Cole's DNA, there was no way he could say the baby was Cole's. At best the test would show if the baby was or was not Noah's, assuming he somehow got Noah's DNA. At least that was my understanding per the first 5 seasons of CSI :D
I went to your rival school, the Law & Order School of Medicine. ;)
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I'm baffled as to how/why Noah has so much stuff going on now regarding "good" and "great" men and yet was faithful for 20 years. He's a writer of fiction. Are we to believe that he hadn't stretched his mind enough to do these kinds of things and think these kinds of things for twenty years?
My take is that he was content to be a good man for most of his life. Once he realized he had the potential to be great, based on the response to Descent, he started to obsess about choosing Good vs. Great.
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Also, Saul gets reduced to that wronged character who always popped up on 24, the one the good guys hope can sweet talk the truth out of the bad guy but ends up getting violent instead.
I was hoping that he was just playing bad cop to Dar's good cop.
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Noah used to teach high school and now he has 26 year old women as his students?
Maybe teaching a writing seminar? Not likely that he's a full time professor.
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I really enjoyed the therapy session. I do think we got to a level of honesty from Noah that we haven't seen before. Now, he doesn't want to share his magical therapist with Alison!
I liked the discussion of good men vs. great men. I think that there have been a lot of men who were great in their field or calling, but their focus on achievement made them ignore the needs of their loved ones. They always put themselves and their work first. However, Noah seems to think that this is a causal relationship--that is, being a self-centered jerk leads to great achievements--and I don't buy that.
Am I the only one who thought that Scotty looked genuinely pleased to see Joanie (in addition to his delight at having something to hold over Alison)? Made me think for a second he was just happy to have a niece.
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Can anyone speculate as to why Eden asked Noah to wait 15 minutes to find her at the party?
Three options : 1) she's read his book and knows she won't get much foreplay from him and wants to get a head start or 2)she's setting up a video camera that she can use to create a sex tape to further his bad boy image, or 3) she has to take birth control measures.
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More lazy writing: the Atlantic hurricane season runs from June 1 - November 30. It's highly improbable that there would be a big hurricane in NY in February / March. But I guess they needed a big dramatic reason for Noah to miss the birth, in addition to the fact that he's a first rate asshole. I'm just waiting for Scotty to come back from the dead and this show will have achieved soap opera levels of cliche.
I think they mentioned that the hurricane was a freak incident due to the time of year. Still iffy, but it was enough for me to suspend disbelief.
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Is that young doctor who said she's 33 but looks 21 the only one working in that particular hospital? Don't they have any nurses hanging around or at least nurse's aides? This whole episode was a real stretch for anyone's imagination.
I saw two possibilities: 1) the hospital is very short-staffed due to the hurricane and so only one person is available to attend to Alison, or 2) Alison, the unreliable narrator we know and love, feels alone, so she only remembers the one hospital worker who makes her feel less alone.
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Whether Alison spells her name with one 'L' or two is just another symptom at how little he really cares about Alison. Sometimes knowing the smallest details about someone you love means more to them than just telling them you love them. Not that being aware of the correct spelling of her name is a small thing, it's not. It's just an indication of how selfish and shallow Noah really is.
In all fairness, I think it's more likely sloppiness on the part of the show runners, not something that Noah has actually done. As someone else mentioned, Alison/Allison would probably have called it out at some point if it was a real issue in the show. It's more likely a lack of attention to detail by the producers or whoever is responsible for continuity across all media channels.
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Small point, but it is driving me nuts. Alison or Allison? On Noah's phone and the inscription of his book, Descent, says Allison. The cast list (on Showtime and IMBD) says Alison. AAAAAAugh!!!!
Daaamn! Noah doesn't even know how to spell her name? Now that's cold! ;)
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How do you guys figure? From what we saw earlier in the season, Noah left Alison alone in Cold Spring to sort out his divorce; some time later (days? weeks?) Robert tells her that she's fired, she tries unsuccessfully to reach Noah, then goes to her Montauk house and sleeps with Cole. The next time we see Alison and Noah together we learn that they haven't seen each other in six weeks, and Alison is already pregnant. If I understood that timeline correctly, Cole was the last person Alison slept with before her self-imposed break from sex. So either the baby really was premature, and the show used a full-term baby because preemies aren't exactly photogenic, or Alison was hoping the baby would be Cole's but it's really Noah's. I'm leaning towards legit preemie because her OB/GYN would have estimated the date of conception and put it into her file when she went for her first check-up, no?
I wasn't actually referring to her last hookup with Cole. When Alison told Noah she was pregnant, they hadn't seen each other for 6 weeks. Therefore, he had to believe she was at least 6 weeks pregnant. If she is actually 11 or more weeks pregnant at the time, perhaps it puts it into the time frame of when she was still having sex with both Noah and Cole (and Oscar). It would also explain why she looked bigger than normal during her pregnancy.
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Sorry to bring up the Millennial discussion in this thread too, but it was brought up in this ep. So that server gal snidely said to Helen how Tinder is for Millennials, whereas Match would be for divorced people like her (translation -- oldsters over 40 like Helen). Really? Who says? Is server gal speaking for Treem & her crew in this POV? I know zillions of 40-plus-ers who use Tinder. Even Andy Cohen, who is 47, says he uses it all the time. Is this Treem (who I still think is kinda/sorta a Millennial herself) mocking us over-40's again? Guess it's just me (silly old, old, old over-40 me) & I'm projecting & plenty will disagree. Well, at least those under 40 will probably disagree.
I don't think the waitress was being snide at all. Tinder IS a hookup app.
I actually think the waitress was being genuinely helpful and not snide. Helen did not appear to know much about these dating/hookup apps. She didn't recognize the name OKCupid and didn't seem to realize how popular Tinder is. She also looked very uncomfortable to me about the whole situation. The waitress picked up on that and suggested another site that would be better aligned with Helen's needs and comfort level.
And what's next for Whitney, Treem? Hooking? Stripping? Porn vids? Yawners on this track, Treem.
Max? What is there to say? Treem & her crew know how to write major league assholes.
Actually, finding someone she likes at Williams was probably the incentive Whitney needs to go to college.
Can we have some sort of redemption arc for Max please. He is becoming boring in his boorishness.
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I thought it was interesting that they left their normal episode structure and showed 4 POVs and no future. It's more like a typical drama structure, but was necessary to show such separate events.
A lot of us were hoping that Helen would get together with the doctor, and I guess we got our wish, but I'm not sure I'm thrilled with how it played out. On one hand, his complete lack of sentimentality might be a good change from Noah's artistic temperament. However, I wasn't impressed by the fact that he was drinking while on call (or was that a joke and he was drinking coke?) and the way he was two-faced with the mother of his patient. Interesting that the doctor lives in Harlem... especially since Helen is reverting to the "wild girl" she was when she and Noah lived there. And he did have a good rapport with the kids...
Can anyone tell me if Martin was being a baby about the injections or if they really do hurt that much? I don't have enough experience in that area to judge.
I felt really sorry for Alison in this episode, having to go through a dangerous, scary, early delivery on her own. Especially when she said she didn't want the baby--don't know if that was just fear of if that was her real feelings coming out. Either way, it was a nice parallel to Helen's confession that sometimes she hates being a mother. Glad she seemed to bond with the baby in the end. I'm also glad she didn't immediately allow Noah into the room when he finally showed up. However, the salient point is that the baby was "5 weeks early" but sure looked full term...
Just when you thought Noah couldn't get worse...Really? cocaine during a business meeting? Also, even if he misplaced his phone, couldn't he have called Alison from someone else's phone to see how she was doing in the hurricane? Not only does he not seem to love her, but he seems completely indifferent to her! I really thought he might drown in the pool, given how high/drunk he was. Did NOT expect the Whitney/Chrissy (from Williams--right?) hook up. I thought at first that it was a drug-fueled dream, but I suspect it was real because Chrissy was with her. I hope that awkward encounter scared him straight. I also hope that it was his drugged up state that caused him to leave Whitney at a party where alcohol and drugs were flowing. BTW, I'm a little concerned that Max was there too. Is it possible that he got the girls invited or brought them with him? It seems too much of a coincidence that Noah, Whitney and Max were all there separately. I'm hoping that Noah's breakdown in the car was the start of his redemption--he needs it!
Max's unpleasantness--I wonder if he was really that bad or if Noah is just distancing himself from him emotionally.
Cole lost a lot of my sympathy. Everything is about him, including Luisa's infertility. Looks like Scotty was right on that count. Is it possible that Scotty will end up as the better Lockhart? Also, I hated the fact that he burned down Alison's house. However, seeing Gabriel and hearing him seemed to be Cole acknowledging the guilt he feels for not going into the water with his son and "letting" him drown. That's a good sign that maybe he's hit rock bottom and is ready for an upswing, hopefully paralleling what Noah experienced..
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I can see the asshole doesn't fall far from the tree.
Love this comment. Will appropriate it for everyday use.
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Noah had just come from the gym in which the only other person was reading his book. He also told Alison about a glowing review from the New Yorker, that people kept e-mailing him and that he was looking pretty good for the PEN\Faulkner based on his information.
How much adulation does Noah need?
To quote Eden, "Even Vladimir Putin settles for 98% of the vote", but Noah's heading into Kim Jong-un territory, if he's not already there.
I think this is fairly normal for creative types. Writers, painters, etc. put part of their soul into their work. A writer like Noah, in particular, laid bare his life in the novel. It's not the same as in most other professions, where you may put a lot of thought, planning, and effort into in--but you're not necessarily putting yourself in it. Most of us have emotional distance from our work. If an artist keeps that same emotional distance for his or her work, the work would probably not be that great. Therefore, any criticism of the work is a criticism of the artist him or herself. Imagine standing naked in public (the closest example I could think of). If people look at you, you'd wonder if they were appreciative or disgusted by you. If they didn't look, you'd wonder if they were rejecting you. Anything small could be perceived as a slight, whether or not it's meant that way.
I do think Noah is self-centered, but I think his need for everyone to love his work is not unusual for a first-time-successful writer. After a few successes, he may chill.
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I found a transcript of the episode and yep, absolutely right. I didn't catch the developed part and just the portrait of Whitman :) What's often funny to me is how we are all watching a show about these character's memory and perception of events and then we all come here and discuss them ... bringing our memory and perception of the show. Sometimes we don't remember the exact same things even though we all watched the exact same show. I rarely post because I'm so shy about doing so & mostly because I'm afraid I will remember something dead wrong LOL
I use closed captioning when I cannot quite make out the words. (Especially useful for Outlander, with the Scottish accents!)
You are absolutely right on regarding the different perception of events. Passionate debates happen in most of the forums in which I participate because we each see things differently. I made a post upthread and then subsequently realized I had mis-remembered the events--not in a major way, but still enough to prove the point made by the show.
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I'm pretty sure it wasn't a reference to Whitney at all, but indeed to Walt Whitman or I thought it was some sort of portrait ... something along those lines. But had nothing to do with Whitney, which is in keeping with her referencing to Cole that she isn't in the book at all. She would have caught it if
it were something as simple as just changing a few letters of her name.
It's definitely a reference to Whitney. He calls her Whitman in the book--although I think Britney would have been a better name for the Whitney-based character. He says that there is a portrait of that his wife developed of "Whitman" as a baby during a winter they spent living in Harlem when their pipes froze. No matter how old Whitney thinks her mother is, Helen is not old enough to have taken a picture of Walt Whitman as a baby! ;)
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S02.E12: 212
in The Affair
· Edited by nara
My interpretation: whereas Gabriel's death tore Alison and Cole apart, this tragedy brought Noah and Alison together. It made them forget about their differences and cling to each other.
I didn't think Helen was specifically trying to frame Alison, but creating enough doubt about Noah's guilt. She may have assumed that because Alison was not guilty and not there at the time of Scotty's death (to Helen's knowledge) there would not be any real evidence against Alison. Therefore, she could help Noah without really hurting Alison. She may have also been really curious about the paternity question--both from a certain amount of cattiness and from the perspective of hoping that Noah and Alison would break up. We know that, in spite of everything that has happened, she still loves Noah, so I do think that her curiosity is understandable.
I don't think they did it just for show. I think it's natural for Margaret, in particular, to take an interest in Luisa, a girl she's probably known since she was born. Helen would likewise have been still living with her parents when Luisa was born, and so has known her all her life too. Also, although I think that they are aware of the class distinctions between the Butlers and their maid, it reminds me of the relationship between the Crawleys of Downton Abbey and their servants--the classes are definitely separate, but there is real affection between them. Lady Mary and Anna, for example, are very close. Now, there is bad blood between Helen and the Lockharts due to Scotty/Whitney, but Cole was very nice to Martin before that all happened. Also, everyone in Montauk seems to be aware of Alison and Cole's tragedy, so perhaps there is some community spirit in celebrating the fact that his life is rebounding.
I think that there is some part of Margaret's generosity that is coming from missing having people on whom she can shower her largess. IIRC, she spoiled Whitney with money and other stuff and she was also openhanded with Helen. Helen is finally saying no to stuff and Whitney is off in her own world. So now, she is focusing on her maid.
On other stuff, did we see Noah or Helen even react to the sight of Scotty when he arrived at the reception? I feel like they should have had a noticeable, negative reaction to his presence.
Also, (4 pages of posts later) I cannot remember why Alison was walking on the road. Isn't she staying right above the Lobster Roll? After dropping that bombshell on Noah, it doesn't seem likely that they would stay in the same room at the End. And if they were, why wouldn't she just drive there with him?
Edited for clarity.