ZulaMay

For the life of me I cannot figure out whom Tommy plans to marry. At first I thought surely Grace, because of the baby. Before he was about to be shot he raged about the woman he wanted who loved him and how he "almost had it all." I assumed ALL meant Grace, the baby, the business....everything. Especially since he had mentioned a couple of times leading up to it that he had no kids. But then there was the Churchill thing. Now he has that hanging over his head, he might need more help from connected people....and May is connected. And he ended the episode by saying he had big plans for the business ("big money" as Michael said). Then he said he's getting married. So it seemed as though the business and marriage thing went hand in hand. Which points to May as well, because when Grace said "there's business and then there's love" May was like "Is there? With Thomas Shelby?" She knows the deal and is OK with it. I admit I much prefer May. Grace was OK in S1 when she was a spy and all that, but now? What's interesting about her? To me it's like the show is crackling with energy and when she appears it all dissipates. Especially when she arrived and dropped the pregnancy bomb in her pinky-fluffy perfect little angel outfit. I guess it will be a love triangle inevitably, but I hope we don't see Tommy just marry Mary and then pine after Grace because.....why?! I could live with it if it's mainly because of the kid, but not if he just remains hung up on her. He seems to think she represents this pure ideal, but she's no angel. She cheated on her husband. He asked May when she first came to The Garrison if he "represented something" to her. Maybe he does, but I think Grace represents something to him too. She's not just a woman, she's redemption or something. Anyway, I absolutely love this show. Pretty much everything about it, there is too much to say in one post. The music, acting, production. All phenomenal.

Because she expects Mary to treat her the way she'd treat Mary if the roles were reversed (an unfounded fear, IMO: Mary wouldn't air the family's dirty laundry in public for the sake of petty vengeance). Edith is the one who deliberately set out to ruin Mary's reputation when Mary didn't just take her mocking in silence but responded with a wittier insult. It's Edith's habit to act mean and then turn on her sad, shocked face when her behavior doesn't win her affection, petting and kind words: she can dish it out but she can't take it. And Edith is not behind Mary in the entitlement stakes either, Has Edith ever apologized for something she's done, which would require admitting that she's not always the victim? I genuinely can't remember right now, apart from the vague . Mary hasn't apologized for every act that viewers have had problems with, but she has blamed herself for some of the things that have happened to her. That's why I personally find her a better person than Edith: she can be a bitch, but she can also be kind and doesn't think all her problems are the result of the universe being out to get her. I don't think it's Edith's habit to be mean and then pout when it doesn't get her attention. The fact is Mary got attention no matter what she did, whether she was nice or sharp, demanding or giving. Edith saw how Mary got attention and tried to emulate it (flirting, sniping), but she wasn't good at it so it failed to get her attention. That's just not who she is. So instead she tried to get it in positive ways (being helpful, working at the hospital, writing, finding a suitable husband) but even THAT didn't get her any positive attention. She can't win either way. Mary can take it better because she has the thick skin of someone who has always been validated and tended. Her ego hasn't been damaged like Edith's so it bounces off of her. The fact is that kids who don't get enough emotional support in childhood don't develop those buffers that they need to weather criticism. She is too full of self-doubt to take it. And no one ever defends her even when Mary is truly awful, which probably makes her think she deserves being treated that way. Which she doesn't. I think Edith did blame herself for the pregnancy. She took responsibility, she was going to go terminate it on her own. But Rosamund figured it out. I also think she blames herself for things in the sense that she thinks she's unworthy, and no wonder. She has often been treated as such. As for the world being out to get her? Felllowes has said repeatedly that Edith is unlucky. It is his theme when it comes to the character and that's how he writes her stories. Bad shit happens to her. And he sees her as someone who gets up and soldiers on like "Mother Courage," not as someone with a victim mentality. I don't see why she has no right to feel sorry for herself when bad stuff happens. Mary does too: when Matthew took the inheritance, when he got engaged, when he died. It's natural. And since she doesn't get much attention or sympathy from her family (which she doesn't), she has to nurture herself. Her reaction to bad fortune is a combination of nursing her hurt alone and then getting up and moving on, like the walking wounded.

I don't think Mary would see herself as better than Sybil in general. They were very different and she knows that, but she loved her and I think admired her. She told Matthew "she was the strong one (Sybil)." Personally I find Sybil the superior one in terms of spirit, heart, etc. But more importantly TOM found her to be so. There is a reason why he fell for her and not for Mary. I realize they have both changed and are close now, but Mary is still fundamentally the same person and so is he. She does care about status and wealth. She has been bred to marry a titled man and that is still how she envisions her life. Tom might be helping her run the estate, their kids might be growing up like siblings, but that doesn't mean he meets her criteria for a husband. She would have to change drastically to be right for him, way too drastically for me to ever buy it. After four years of friendship I feel the dynamic is established. He is her brother-in-law, friend, and employee. She respects him and even loves him. But in many ways he is only a step above Anna in her pecking order. She is still "above" him. After all, she is warm and close and loyal with Anna too. That doesn't mean she thinks Anna is her equal. And if they were going to be attracted to each other or emotionally drawn to each other in a romantic way, I think it would have happened already. I could have seen an affair of some sort in their mutual state of grief after Matthew died, but the time for that has passed. I just don't see Tom having his emotional needs met in marriage to her, at all. She is warm with him but as a friend. As a wife she would not give him the kind of warmth and affection that Sybil did. And can't see him ever adoring her and finding deep fulfillment with her like he did with Sybil. And he wouldn't meet her need for status. As for Tom and Edith, I don't think they'd meet each others needs either. Perhaps Edith would get more out of it than Tom would because he would be loving and supportive. But he couldn't show her the passion that Michael did, and IMO she needs and deserves that. Now she knows how it feels. She would also feel forever in Sybil's shadow, just as she has felt in her sisters' shadows her whole life. That would be a big problem. I think Tom/Edith make more sense as partners in terms of priorities and interests. Sure, Tom runs the estate with Mary but that's a job, not a passion. He was a journalist because he wanted to be. He didn't just fall into it because he needed a job. But I still don't see them as spouses. A lot would have to change. Not as much as with Mary IMO, but too much.

Me too. JoFro really needs to get another person to do her eyebrows. They're over-plucked, uneven, and kind of tacky. It's obvious Michelle Dockery has her eyebrows done too but it's a much more subtle, symmetrical, and high-end job. I have no idea why the costume/style department doesn't do something about JoFro. I know the actresses were told NOT to do their eyebrows. They have said so. And JBF didn't do hers at all (you can tell they're natural just by looking). I don't think LC does either. Again, MD does but it's artful enough to work. And I can't stand Bates when he's any of the above either. Smarmy and creepy comes to mind for me too. I don't find him good-looking, although I might if he lost thirty pounds (about five of them in his face). But a better personality would help enormously. I found Harold Levinson more attractive and Paul Giamatti is no looker.

The problem is that Mary is in fact inferior to Sybil in terms of spirit, charm, heart and beauty. And if Tom DID regain his swagger he would never go for someone like Mary. The irony is he is the one who would be settling for her, not the other way around. No matter how hard he tries, Fellowes is never going to sell me some bullshit about Mary being as lovable as her sister way in any way or able to give Sybil's widower back some of the happiness he lost. YMMV.

I don't think he is going to go to America in the end, not forever anyway. Robert's change in attitude is to show that if Tom decides to stay it will be because he WANTS to and not because he was pressured or guilted by the Crawleys. They can't make Tom look any more accommodating than he already does. He just now got back part of his spine.

So perfect. Mary is literally like the bitchy stepsister who gets treated like Cinderella by the writer. I supposed JF thinks it's clever to inverse the formula, but IMO that trick has gotten stale and transparent. And highly unsatisfying. There's a reason Cinderella is a classic.

I think "going to Poland" is code for "the actor was busy with another project so they sent him away for a while, leaving open the possibility of his returning in the CS or S6 just as Mary is getting involved with someone else." I think S6 was said to be the last but recently Allen Leech said he thinks 7 would be ideal and necessary to wrap up the stories, or something. So that might be code for "we'll do Series 7 if the ratings are still high enough to rake in a lot of dough." I did think Atticus was "housekeeping" to marry off Rose because Lily was leaving, and that might be the case. But IDK. This past episode made me start to doubt that. There was so much talk of how fast it was moving, even from the two of them. Rose seemed to be acting very impulsive and caught up in the whirlwind romance. She mentioned they don't know each other that well. But they're throwing caution to the wind despite knowing the risks. When does that ever work out well on this show? It could be another situation like with Blake. They left it open to give them room to go either way, depending on her decision and schedule and where JF chooses to take it. He really does make up a lot of this stuff as he goes along.

I agree. Mary's getting the life she wants has had little to do with competence. For the most part she has just been lucky and supported by the people around her. Lavinia dies, Richard doesn't publish, her parents forgive the Pamuk thing and so does Matthew, Isobel talks Matthew into letting of his guilt and getting back with Mary, Swire leaves him a fortune, Tom talks him off the wall the night before the almost-canceled wedding, Violet meddles with Matthew by telling him Mary is still in love with him, Lavinia is fast-tracked for sainthood and ships them from beyond the grave. And so forth. Then she was lucky enough to survive childbirth and not develop eclampsia, which often runs in families. Her husband leaves her his fortune that once belonged to the woman they betrayed. Everyone helps her through her grief and encourages her to help run the estate, which she doesn't even seem to do anymore much. What did she ever do to earn her life? I can't think of anything.

I meant to say Blake, not Tom. Sorry. No Tom seems very hetero. But I am not sure about Atticus. Whether it's that or not I think there will be a problem. It might be the religion or it might not. It's just too fast.

ZoloftBob, I wouldn't be so sure Rose and Atticus are going to ride off happily into the sunset. You've gotten a gay vibe off of both Matthew and Blake. Not Atticus? I do. And his kiss with Rose was awkward. He seems rather too perfect and puppyish. I can't explain it, I just have a feeling. They were banging on last night about how they didn't want to wait, they barely knew each other but they were so in love! Those crazy kids. They are making it seem like the religious difference will be the problem, but that might be a red herring. I think they might pull a switch and have something else be the problem. Because it's true, they barely know each other. It all seemed weirdly rushed and they even seem to be making a point of saying it. Then there's what Mary said earlier in the season about needing to make sure she and Tony were compatible in the bedroom. What about Rose and Atticus? I completely agree with ZulaMay's reaction to a Tom/Mary hook up. It would be a revolting betrayal of both Tom and Sybil, and quite frankly, I don't think Mary would go for it anyway. The whole idea makes no sense to me in any way, and if that is the end game I will rue the day I ever started watching this show. ​I feel the same way. If they do that I will seriously wish I never heard of this damned show. Sybil was my favorite sister and they were my favorite couple. Tom with Mary would be a betrayal of her memory, of what she and they represented. They will have literally changed him into a different character altogether: Matthew 2.0. There to help run the estate, serve Mary's sexual needs and tell her how nice she REALLY is whenever it is in doubt....which is always. I would be sick. And IMO it would not work on any level, be a cheat and a cop-out and a huge disappointment in general. I don't think they have any sexual chemistry. They seem like siblings so the idea is doubly creepy. I still have some hop for Rose. That is if my Atticus theory proves to be correct.

Oh God that thought just turns my stomach. Tom who love Sybil, had principles and goals, was a journalist and wanted to work for his country's freedom.....stuck in that house for the rest of his life propping up her wealth and privilege, making it his life's work and having the chore of always reminding his wife she's nicer than she seems? What a sick thought. When he had the sister who didn't need to be REMINDED she was nice because she just was and always acted that way. He deserves so much better, and if they do this they will have killed Sybil the progressive sister to serves Mary's story and completely change his character to suit her needs. I didn't mind her marrying Matthew because that made sense in the narrative but Tom? That's just lazy and it's using Tom's character. I hate how they just use characters as plot devices for Mary, especially when said character had a life and purpose in his own right and served the OTHER sister's character. It would be like killing Sybil all over again and dismantling Tom's character even further. And Matthew just turned into her doormat when he married her, gave up his own life and character entirely. I didn't like that either. I prefer Blake because he is the character he has always been and wouldn't HAVE to change for Mary. And he's not a sweet, affectionate sort like Tom who would mind if his wife didn't want to hold his hand in public. Tom and Sybil always held hands. That's who Tom is. I like them as brother/sister but that's it. Cannot see any romantic chemistry or even passion. It would be dull and depressing. Same with Tom/Edith. I hope that was just a nice Robert/Tom conversation and nothing more. He did mention that all he would wish in Tom's wife was she be friendly with the family, not that she shares their values. And Tom doesn't share them all (or their politics) and he isn't afraid to say so now. So to me it makes more sense that this was setting him up to meet the sort of person Robert was describing. Not someone like Mary. And also to show that he DOES like Tom as a son-in-law now. The fact that he would have liked Toff Tony doesn't mean he likes Tom any less. Just that they would be equal in his eyes, just different. I got that sense from the conversation. As for Tom reminding Mary she's nice....maybe that's just him filling the Matthew role to "tell" us she's nice because right now no one else is inclined to do it. And why should they be? She needed Matthew to do it and right now she has no one, so Tom is just filling that role....as a brother.

There is a difference between demanding respect and being an entitled, imperious Queen Bee. Commanding respect entails earning it, which Mary doesn't do. She just expects and demands it because she's always been given it no matter what. Edith has tried to earn it and never gotten it even when she deserves it, so she gave up. Trust me, I wish she would tell Mary to STFU and just stay in London as much as anyone does. But she's Fellowes' butt monkey so that's not going to happen. At this point none of the characters is being written at all realistically anyway, so I am just going to judge what I see. And I see Mary being such a bitch that even Violet calls her out on it. NOTBOTHERED, ON 02 NOV 2014 - 8:28 PM, SAID: Yes. Mary is terrible, but they are both terrible. But Mary does not have the entire story, and Edith continues to be petulant. I don't see Edith being terrible to Mary? Because she said she doesn't want Mary "queening it over her" or because she wouldn't tell her about the baby and give her a "chance" to be understanding? What reason does she have to trust in her sister given how Mary smacks her down for the least little thing she does? So Edith is right to call her out on it. I don't consider that petulant, I consider it the cold hard facts. And it was not petulant to call out Mary on her smug little fashion show last episode. Mary had enough of the story not to pull that crap: Edith had just found out for sure her lover/boyfriend/whatever was murdered. That's all the facts Mary needed. There's mopey and there's terrible. They are two completely different categories. Anyway, it belongs in the E/M thread where all the facts can be laid on the table.