S02.E09: Something Borrowed

[indeed]

Gwen awakes on her wedding day to find she has been impregnated by a shape-shifting alien male. With it's life-partner eager to retrieve it's mate at the cost of Gwen's life, the team race to intercept her as Gwen decides to go through with her marriage at a secluded location with all of her family present.

Ianto: Jack, I'm afraid the situation is uncontained.

[Dizzy76]

Don't know how to delete a post so I'm just adding filler here to replace the web content I had posted.  Sorry.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

Ok first off  I hate this ep LOL And i have tried but sorry still hate it, Meat and Combat get me mad but had more than this ep. Aside from Ianto ( but not when he dances with Jack)  and surprisingly Owen everyone else just , i don't care.

 

I get what they were going for, with the "comedy" aspect or style but  screwball comedy normally doesn't have no one giving a toss that someone died. This is the worse of the most stupidest "love triangle" ever that being Jack/Gwen/Rhys. Not including Ianto cause they don't bother, he isn't a person, he is a joke.I guess they are going for some sort of Casablanca triangle as Jack sends Gwen off into Rhys arms but really why would anyone want her. She chucks a tantrum puts her family and friends in danger , while lying about a child , someone they know dies and hey happy ending cause we can just drug everyone.

 

I guess me seeing  Owen as the voice of reason should just explain how bad this ep is LOL. And i know i'm way out on my own cause this is a fan favpurite but i don't get it, i truly don't. Am i supposed to sympathise with Gwen ? No she caused the problem. Am I supposed to feel Jack's loss of Gwen ? No , grow up dude and find you balls. Does Rhys even count ? Not really he is just a foil for Gwack, since he doesn't have a problem with putting his family and friends in danger either as long as Gwennie gets her way that's all that matters. Tosh should i care how pathetic she is ? No after Banana Boat humour , can't be bothered anymore just except loser, but hey at least still she is still a person. Ianto joke.

Edited September 10, 2014 by itsmeyousee

[Swansong]

 

And i know i'm way out on my own cause this is a fan favpurite but i don't get it, i truly don't.

I'll have to join you on that island because I dislike this episode too for pretty much for the same reasons you do. As far as I'm concerned when Owen is the most appealing character in the room you've gone wrong somewhere.

[itsmeyousee]

I'll have to join you on that island because I dislike this episode too for pretty much for the same reasons you do. As far as I'm concerned when Owen is the most appealing character in the room you've gone wrong somewhere.

With all my rabbiting on you just said it perfectly Swansong LOL Happy to have you on the island

[indeed]

Hey, there had better be room on that island for me! While there are some scenes I like, I hate this episode.

[itsmeyousee]

Absolutely Indeed welcome to the island LOL

 

What scenes do you like ?

 

I like the convo with Ianto , Owen and Jack at the SUV. I love the look on Ianto face when he is buying the wedding dress and your quote scene. I like Owen explaining to Rhys that he can't really work the machine now that's huge for Owen admitting he can't do something to basically an outsider cause that's what Rhys is.I like Owen in general LOL best person in the ep

[Captanne]

I wish this episode would just go away.  That dance scene makes me cringe like all of CoE and, the way I feel about CoE, you know that's not good.

[itsmeyousee]

I wish this episode would just go away.  That dance scene makes me cringe like all of CoE and, the way I feel about CoE, you know that's not good.

Gosh that really surprises me captanne. I guess cause i thought you loved the "master tailor scene" you liked the ep, silly me LOL.

 

But we will have to disagree about the "dance" nothing in COE is worse than the dance for me. I want to rip Ianto and Jack apart, tell Ianto what a joke Jack and Gwen think he is and get some self respect. I want to kick Jack in the nuts , so he knows where they are and tell him to be the F...ing Boss, some one has died you idiot.. I want Rhys to open his eyes and realise that all of their family and friends think his wife is screwing Jack, she doesn't love you. And i really couldn't be bothered with Gwen, she is the most selfish person that has ever been written. I just don't know which part is worse, the lying to her family and friends about the pregnancy, the putting everyone in danger with a death or the drugging of them all means a happy ending for her.

[Captanne]

I did love the master-tailor scene -- but now that I know Ianto is a compulsive liar who is just  deceiving Jack, who is nothing but a sad sucker, the scene is forever poisoned.

 

Of course, Jack -- the five year old asshole he can be -- just repays Ianto in that horrific dance scene.

 

No, there is no love for this horrid little episode.

 

(I used to find the wedding dress scene kind of harmlessly cute but now I find it homosexual-ridicule.  So, yeah, that time has changed.)

 

ETA:  I hope CoE dies in the flames of a thousand supernovas.  Jesus, I hate that series.  RTD is a motherfucker for doing what he did -- mainly because it wasn't necessary.  Bitter.  Yep.  I'm bitter and I will never not be one of the "9 Hysterical Women".

Edited September 12, 2014 by Captanne

[indeed]

(I used to find the wedding dress scene kind of harmlessly cute but now I find it homosexual-ridicule. So, yeah, that time has changed.

Aww, I love Ianto's little "Ooh!" when he finds the dress. Otherwise, yes, it's a little "cute"--and the start of the gay comments/jokes at Ianto's expense (or am I forgetting something earlier?).

[Captanne]

The part of that scene I found endearing was that Ianto and Gwen are friends -- and he found the perfect dress for her, knew it the second he saw it and responded spontaneously.  That was adorable.

 

But now, after all the jokes at the expense of gays that Ianto had to endure during CoE, I just cringe as hard as I can possibly cringe.  Not as hard but almost as hard as I do at the nauseating scene in the hospital at the beginning of CoE.  That makes me so uncomfortable I feel nauseous just thinking about it.

[itsmeyousee]

 

.

 

(I used to find the wedding dress scene kind of harmlessly cute but now I find it homosexual-ridicule.  So, yeah, that time has changed.)

 

 

 

To the guy who is selling the wedding dress , yes i would agree stereo - typical but what does that have to do with Ianto being gay if Ianto is gay. I thought it was about being secretly transsexual. Gay guys don't normally dress as women, well none that i know, they are just guys.

The part of that scene I found endearing was that Ianto and Gwen are friends -- and he found the perfect dress for her, knew it the second he saw it and responded spontaneously.  That was adorable.

 

But now, after all the jokes at the expense of gays that Ianto had to endure during CoE, I just cringe as hard as I can possibly cringe.  Not as hard but almost as hard as I do at the nauseating scene in the hospital at the beginning of CoE.  That makes me so uncomfortable I feel nauseous just thinking about it.

That part showed Ianto being nice and knowing Gwen, not sure where the Gwen part of the friendship is though ? She doesn't thank Ianto at any stage and she thinks Ianto is just a joke.

 

But i'm still unsure why COE cops all of your anger Captanne i get how much you hate it but i thought that was more about Jack and the kids. MD does an equally as bad a job when it comes to sexuality and being cliche and you like that or parts of that more.

Aww, I love Ianto's little "Ooh!" when he finds the dress. Otherwise, yes, it's a little "cute"--and the start of the gay comments/jokes at Ianto's expense (or am I forgetting something earlier?).

Obviously is disagree with the gay comments/jokes part Indeed but i also love Ianto's face from joy to huh to deadpan

[Captanne]

I wrote a long diatribe on my Amazon review back in either 2009 or 2010 which explains my entire litany of problems with CoE.  Over the years, i'm sure I've listed them separately here!  LOL  If I can find it, I'll post it or at least link to it.  The fact that it was entirely about junkies raping children is a large part of it but character assassination, stupid stereotypes and insulting my intelligence (Muppet in a box?  Really?  And who is going to ask Israel to take part in this bullshit ransom delivery which consists of children being rounded up in busses and sent to be gassed?  I'm not.)

 

As for "gay" versus "transvestite" -- you're right, my mistake.

 

As for Gwen and Ianto's friendship -- there are examples of that which we've discussed before -- but I thought it was nice that Ianto knew her well enough to choose exactly the right dress he knew she'd like.  That was cute.  It's tricky going out last minute and buying anyone a wedding dress.  Finding the right one on the drop of a dime means you probably know and like that person.  Especially if you smile when you do.

 

I try not to overthink it.

[Swansong]

 

As for Gwen and Ianto's friendship -- there are examples of that which we've discussed before -- but I thought it was nice that Ianto knew her well enough to choose exactly the right dress he knew she'd like.  That was cute.  It's tricky going out last minute and buying anyone a wedding dress.  Finding the right one on the drop of a dime means you probably know and like that person.  Especially if you smile when you do.

Pity they then go and undermine all that in COE.

[Captanne]

Mousey, I put my review from March, 2010 on Amazon over in the "Children of Earth:  WHY?" thread.

[indeed]

To the guy who is selling the wedding dress , yes i would agree stereo - typical but what does that have to do with Ianto being gay if Ianto is gay. I thought it was about being secretly transsexual. Gay guys don't normally dress as women, well none that i know, they are just guys.

It's just a very common joke, so that scene wasn't very original. Of course, just because a man may be gay doesn't mean he wants to wear women's clothing, and just because a man is shopping for women's clothing doesn't mean he's gay or shopping for himself...even when he says "for a friend".

But then, who knows about the clothing--if this took place after Almost Perfect, Ianto may have gotten a taste for a nice skirt every now and then to let his legs breathe. Kidding.

[Swansong]

 

It's just a very common joke, so that scene wasn't very original.

It's not a particularly original joke, is it? But there are so many other things that annoy me so much more about this episode than this scene so it doesn't really bother me.

 

I will say as much as I dislike this episode I do appreciate that in the first two seasons you could have darker episodes and lighter episodes without either feeling out of place.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

I will say as much as I dislike this episode I do appreciate that in the first two seasons you could have darker episodes and lighter episodes without either feeling out of place.

True, but this episode always felt out of place to me. A major fail IMO. But I guess I don't find the humor in letting parents think they're going to be grandparents and having someone get killed while partying on at the wedding.

[Swansong]

 

True, but this episode always felt out of place to me. A major fail IMO. But I guess I don't find the humor in letting parents think they're going to be grandparents and having someone get killed while partying on at the wedding.

 

I think that has more to do with the content than the tone though. Making your parents believe you're carrying their grandchild when you know you'll just have to disappoint them later or a friend being murdered and everyone partying like it's no big thing are faily, but I still think the idea of having a lighter episode was still a good one. It just needed a better written, more thought out story line. On the other hand even a well-written, screwball comedy style episode would really be out of place in s3 and s4. But I think the structure of s1 and s2 could accommodate it.

[indeed]

No, I agree, if it was just a screwball comedy type, weddings Torchwood style! episode then it would have been fine. But the light episode with such dark moments didn't quite work for me the way they handled it. The idea and spirit of the episode certainly fit, they just rubbed me the wrong way from almost the start with Gwen choosing to tell her parents they were going to be grandparents instead of coming up with a rare bloating disease or something else and then there were other issues along the way that just piled on. So, while I would have enjoyed a light Torchwood episode in the mix of the season, I didn't enjoy that light episode, except for a few parts.

No, SB certainly wouldn't have fit in the later seasons. Well, except for maybe MD--they did make room for that ridiculous Rendition episode, after all.

Edited September 15, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

The Ianto/Gwen friendship bit, i do get what is being said, i just don't see any Gwen side of it and certainly not in this ep. It just all comes from Ianto.

 

I think we are all saying the same thing really, the type of ep was fine and yes with an episodic style we could have different styles of eps. Dark, light etc that we can't in a short arc story like COE. MD different again it went on for months so yes they could have. It's just the story and what the characters are actually doing and saying not funny. If they did a dark comedy then that's what you would get but screwball comedy ? I don't think so.

 

And like Indeed it's right from the get go, that Gwen selfishness to have what she wants out weighs any thought of the impact on her family , who would have grieved for a grandchild and it just gets worse with the subject matter.

[Dizzy76]

This entire episode just makes me shake my head.  I remember reading stuff about what the episode was suppose to be about and then hearing the writer talk about everything (from something one of you guys posted at the other forum...can't remember who it was) and thinking that this episode is a perfect example of how much of a disconnect the writers seem to have with what they think they are showing/telling us and what we actually see.

 

If I remember correctly, the writer intended for this episode to be fun and funny and the ultimate depiction of how Gwen was choosing a life with Rhys despite Torchwood.  That against all odds, she was going to grab a hold of this piece of love and normality.  And you know, if I had seen an episode that had actually shown that, I would have liked it - at least during the first watch.  But Not only was Gwen just downright selfish in her determination to get married against all odds, but she pretty much undermined it all when she thought that Jack was actually declaring himself to her.  How is that Gwen choosing Rhys?

 

I know there are other Torchwood moments that were mishandled in the same way but nothing from S1 or S2 is on the same level for me.  I think it's because I haven't seen so many fans hate on an entire Torchwood episode the way they hate on Something Borrowed.  In fact, I can't think of a single mishandled scene that gets talked about in the same way that the dance scene gets talked about, lol.  Yeah, this episode just seems to be the perfect storm of intent not equaling the end product.

 

Speaking of the dance moment...I hate it with a passion.  I don't find myself rewatching the episode but sometimes I do play a couple of scenes.  I always skip over the dance.  And now that I have said that, you might find it hard to believe that I don't really have a problem with Jack's answer about what he will be doing while Gwen is gone.  During my first episode watch, I thought it was suppose to be Jack being Jack and trying to make a stupid joke out of things in order to avoid giving a serious answer.  However, I never thought he was making a joke at Ianto's expense.  It just didn't come across that way.  I actually watched that episode with my husband and neither of us thought anything of it.  It wasn't until I was trolling old forums reading other people's reactions that Jack and Gwen making Ianto the butt of a joke entered my mind.  No, my problem comes after that part. 

 

I don't know if moments like the dance scene were originally written in the script that way or if the director is responsibly for what we saw but I did read that the Jack/Ianto dancing was suppose to be about Ianto taking the first steps to publicly acknowledging them which causes a change/shift in the relationship.  I also read somewhere that the writer was upset about how that part played out due to way the director changed things.  This last bit I read from an unverified source so who really knows. 

 

But it doesn't really matter because regardless of who is actually to blame, the entire episode failed (for all the reasons you guys have stated) in delivering what we were suppose to see/take away from it.  And that can't be placed solely on the director's shoulders.  Somehow, the writer failed on a fundamental level.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Swansong]

 

Speaking of the dance moment...I hate it with a passion.  I don't find myself rewatching the episode but sometimes I do play a couple of scenes.  I always skip over the dance.  And now that I have said that, you might find it hard to believe that I don't really have a problem with Jack's answer about what he will be doing while Gwen is gone.  During my first episode watch, I thought it was suppose to be Jack being Jack and trying to make a stupid joke out of things in order to avoid giving a serious answer.  However, I never thought he was making a joke at Ianto's expense.  It just didn't come across that way.  I actually watched that episode with my husband and neither of us thought anything of it.  It wasn't until I was trolling old forums reading other people's reactions that Jack and Gwen making Ianto the butt of a joke entered my mind.  No, my problem comes after that part.

I don't think the problem is the line so much as the context it comes in. At least for me.  I actually like the line on its own and I actually like JB's delivery, but then it's followed up by Ianto coming over and being awkwardly ignored while Jack and Gwen and remain lost in each other and then when Jack does finally notice Ianto and dance with him his mind is apparently still on Gwen not the person he's dancing with. Also even at this point in the season it's not clear what their relationship is supposed to be. Even after nine episodes (I'm ignoring s1) it doesn't seem to have much more depth or development than it did at the beginning so is this line the show's way of defining how they see the relationship with Ianto as the relationship equivalent of pizza as far as Jack is concerned especially since Jack's affection for Ianto seems to come and go according to which writer is on the job. I can see why people had so much trouble with that line for those reasons and possibly because so much of their development as it was basically revolved around the occasional sexual innuendo and I suspect it reinforced for a lot of people that the show only saw Ianto as a convenient sex toy for Jack and would only ever see the relationship as shallow. I think the beginning of the season gave the hope that we would finally begin to see some weight given to the relationship, but I think their scene in TTLM was really as emotionally deep as it ever got this season and then it kind of flat-lined. I honestly wish they'd just given Jack and Gwen their moment and left Ianto out of it if this was how they were going to play things since the only purpose of his inclusion seems to be to diss him. I mean even if the point is to show him taking charge and begin comfortable with the relationship in public the way they frame it just ends up making him look like a foolish idiot in love with a guy who isn't apparently all that into him.

 

 

If I remember correctly, the writer intended for this episode to be fun and funny and the ultimate depiction of how Gwen was choosing a life with Rhys despite Torchwood.  That against all odds, she was going to grab a hold of this piece of love and normality.  And you know, if I had seen an episode that had actually shown that, I would have liked it - at least during the first watch.  But Not only was Gwen just downright selfish in her determination to get married against all odds, but she pretty much undermined it all when she thought that Jack was actually declaring himself to her.  How is that Gwen choosing Rhys?

If that was the intention then yes they did a terrible job. Even when she gives her speech to Jack about why she's marrying Rhys it's basically I owe him and at least he made an offer which is more than you did which suggests less that she's choosing Rhys, but settling for him because Jack won't step up. I mean I guess technically that's still a choice, but certainly not the way the writer supposedly intended. And then they have her jumping into Jack's arms and basically having to be reminded that her fiance's standing right there. lol. How any of this is supposed to sell us on the idea that she really wanted Rhys I don't know.  But I guess that's why it's such a crap show so much of the time. But, even more than the dreaded 'dance' the stuff between Jack/Gwen/Rhys is why I can't with this episode. There's a moment towards the beginning when she first wakes and seems genuinely excited to be getting married that I think 'aww', but it's pretty much down hill after that for me. Everything else with them gives me second-hand embarrassment. I've never been so glad to see a triangle die. 

[itsmeyousee]

I don't know whether it's the director, the writer, the actors or the editing Dizzy. It takes a lot before we get to see it and the PTB must have been happy with it. In some way it's not dissimilar to Owen in the first ep and the rape spray with what we are watching and what they think we are watching. I mean we are talking about both Gwen and Rhys lying to all of their family and friends about a pregnancy , how is that going to end up funny for them when there is no baby ? Surely there could have been a better way to have TW and Gwen "normal life" collide. Just like there could have been a better way to show Owen and sex but no apparently.

 

It's not so much what Jack says that i really hate, cause you're right with your first watching. It's a very Jack thing to say and to make light etc. But it's the whole thing, it's like watching Jack and Gwen's first dance at their wedding, it's their big arse goo goo eyes at each other as they both dismiss Ianto and Jack looks like he would rather be anywhere else than dance with Ianto not just with Gwen but anywhere and it makes Ianto look like he is desperate for a crumb from Jack..

 

I have seen excuse after excuse trying to understand Jack in this ep and nobody has a clue. Some people want to believe he looks at Gwen in  fatherly way except you would get arrest if you did that. Some people try and justify him with the end bit and he is so caught up in his own memories of some lost wedding that he had. But none of that has anything to do with the look on JB face as he is stuck dancing with this loser that both Jack and Gwen has reduced to a "to do list". It's just awful for everyone POV.  But by then i was way over this ep that was just the cherry on top of crap for me.

[Dizzy76]

Found it!  I found the video with Phil Ford (the writer) talking about the episode.  Watching it now and I'm laughing because his reasons for why people may not like the episode are so off base, lol!

 

And I remembered correctly what we were suppose to get from the episode.  Gwen loves Rhys and Rhys is Gwen's hero.  Oh, boy.

 

 

 

ETA: Not that this has much to do with anything but I just found out the Phil wrote The Dead Line.  I didn't know that.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Dizzy76

[indeed]

How any of this is supposed to sell us on the idea that she really wanted Rhys I don't know.

Gwen did look genuinely happy when she was exchanging vows with Rhys and she did not glance over at Jack in a 'wish you were the one standing beside me now' way--so, there's that moment, too. I thought EM sold that well; too bad she was given scenes where her character also had to pine for Jack one last time.

Yeah, no, that dance scene is not father/daughter (shiver), but other parts of the episode came off that way, which is part of the reason why this episode is such a mess. Pick one thing and stick to it! They were all over the place!

And sorry, JB as a Nostrovite--just too funny (in a bad, bad way)!

I do love the boys' scenes; too bad we didn't get more Owen/Jack/Ianto interactions throughout the two seasons.

[Swansong]

 

And sorry, JB as a Nostrovite--just too funny (in a bad, bad way)!

Lol! Yeah. JB always gives me the best unintentional laughs.

 

 

Yeah, no, that dance scene is not father/daughter (shiver), but other parts of the episode came off that way, which is part of the reason why this episode is such a mess. Pick one thing and stick to it! They were all over the place!

I think a lot of the time they want to have their cake and eat it too and that's why a lot of the moments that could work really, well, end up not. 

 

Watching it now and I'm laughing because his reasons for why people may not like the episode are so off base, lol!

The silliness of someone immediately becoming nine months pregnant because of an alien bite the night before is one of the few things I don't actually dislike about the episode. lol

[itsmeyousee]

Thank you Dizzy that was really interesting and i wished that is what we saw but someone definitely forgot to tell the actors and the director cause at no stage do i truly believe that Gwen chooses Rhys. Like normal it's Jack choosing Rhys and Gwen wants Jack.

 

I think Phil Ford first ending would have been much better though actually showing how TW covered it all up including from Gwen and Rhys, it would have made them while seeming ruthless actually really good at their job. And i wish we saw that more, when they are really good at their job.

 

But watching i also thought Phil Ford was while towing the company line, he got why people don't like the ep but can't say it. So instead he emphasised his points which was Gwen loves Rhys and Rhys is the hero or maybe that was just me.

[Dizzy76]

I really want to believe that Phil is just towing the party line.  It would make sense that he wouldn't want to say anything against anyone else involved in creating the final package of the episode during an official event.  And really, it's the only thing that makes sense in my head for why what he said he wrote wasn't displayed on screen.  I mean, if Gwen is firmly choosing Rhys, no looking back, then after saying her vows we shouldn't have had the Gwack moment during the dance.  At least not from her end.  It makes me believe a bit more what I read from that unverified source.  Maybe it is mostly the director's fault that their dancing turned into a moment in which they forget everyone else - even when someone is standing right next to them clearing his throat.

 

I'm imagining what that moment could have been like.  I think I would have really like it.  It would have been sweet.

[Captanne]

Oddly enough, I thought the humor of "doing Ianto" was so off-handed that it had a certain amount of affection to it.  That didn't bother me.  

 

The dance -- glancing over Ianto's shoulder and longingly at Gwen AT HER OWN WEDDING made me want to puke.  Not only was it cuckolding Ianto right there in his arms but it was childish and cruel.  Not to mention confusing as hell for the viewer (at least it was for me.  I kept asking, "What the hell am I supposed to think is Jack's motivation here?  What the hell am I supposed to do with that?")

 

Ugh.

 

It's these little slaps in the face that I could over look, though.  I just chalked it up to inconsistent WTF-ery.