Ianto Jones: Knows Everything

[itsmeyousee]

I think it's meant to be complicated , cause if you throw in HOTD, it's even more complicated. Dad was sick before he died from the uncomfortable convo Ianto and him had ,  Ianto didn't visit or call. Ianto asks why is he there, since they didn't really talk anyway and the the dad says they are more alike than Ianto thinks since they both betrayed people they love. Now the Ianto bit about betrayal i think is about what he will do at the end, as for the Dad who knows. And Ianto hates the thought of being anything like his dad, but he doesn't hate his Dad his seems just more uncomfortable than anything.

 

And we don't know anything about Mum

[Captanne]

I like to think of it as complicated.  Life happens, children get hurt, resentments build.  It's possible that Ianto's father was hard on him and an innocent accident ends up in his child's eyes as intentional or "Dad wasn't careful enough."

 

It answers a question for me, though, and that's "why he idolized Jack so much" (and I think he did.)  In a way, Ianto seemed to "hero worship" Jack and that hero worship fit something Ianto needed in his life.  

 

I've often thought that he needed a father figure -- and, I'm not getting all squicky and implying that he has an Oedipal or Electra* relationship with Jack or any such thing.

 

He needed a hero and he needed to be that hero's sidekick.

 

It suited a side of his personality.

 

What I am saying is that it seemed to me that a part of Ianto found Jack's age and authority appealing.

 

*Either/or because, God knows in this show gender is fluid.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Captanne

[itsmeyousee]

I don't know if i would ever think Ianto worshiped Jack or any fatherly feelings. I think Ianto liked Jack's bravery and that hero side but not hero worship. Ianto understood Jack and admired that aspect of Jack despite all the crap that goes with Jack.

[Swansong]

 

Also, I don't think Ianto ever mentions his mother.   Is there a reason for that or am I giving this more thought than the writers?

Yeah she kind of gets forgotten. Not even an acknowledgement that a mother even ever existed.  Although according to HOTD she was alive when their dad died so presumably still around when Ianto left home. So she died or ran off while he was in London?

 

 

I found it interesting that in previous episodes FOOTR and SB Ianto spoke of his father in a positive light but in COE there's clearly some bad stuff between Ianto and his Dad.

I think it's a case of different writers so different backstory. RTD seems to have a thing for dysfunctional families so that probably explains Ianto's family in COE although we only really knew two facts so it's not as if they had much to contradict. But I remember in SB Gwen's mum is shown as supportive and loving, but in MD she was constantly picking at Gwen and they seem to have a kind of fractious relationship.

 

I never got the impression that Ianto saw Jack as a father figure either. He admired him sure, but I don't think he had any illusions about him and while I definitely think Ianto loved Jack, probably too much for his own good, I always thought his real loyalty was to Torchwood. I think he needed Torchwood more than he needed Jack.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Yeah she kind of gets forgotten. Not even an acknowledgement that a mother even ever existed.  Although according to HOTD she was alive when their dad died so presumably still around when Ianto left home. So she died or ran off while he was in London?

 

 

I never got the impression that Ianto saw Jack as a father figure either. He admired him sure, but I don't think he had any illusions about him and while I definitely think Ianto loved Jack, probably too much for his own good, I always thought his real loyalty was to Torchwood. I think he needed Torchwood more than he needed Jack.

When is the part when Mum was alive in HOTD Swansong ?

 

I thought Ianto's mum was only mentioned as part of the list of loved ones Ianto has lost and could come back.

 

I'll chat about Gwen in her topic

[Swansong]

The father mentions giving her a mobile so Ianto could talk to him when he was sick in hospital, but Ianto never used it.

[itsmeyousee]

The father mentions giving her a mobile so Ianto could talk to him when he was sick in hospital, but Ianto never used it.

I thought dad had the mobile and they allowed him to keep in on in his room even though the hospital rules didn't allow that. It was all part of the guilt trip for Ianto where dad was concerned

[indeed]

Where am I getting that the dad left the family and that's why Ianto and him had a falling out? Yeah, Ianto never mentioned his mom on the show, but there is at least one reference in a book, I think.

[Swansong]

 

I thought dad had the mobile and they allowed him to keep in on in his room even though the hospital rules didn't allow that. It was all part of the guilt trip for Ianto where dad was concerned

Here is the quote from the transcript:

 

Ianto: You’re dead.

Mr. Jones: Yes. Right. You never called, did you?

Ianto: Sorry?

Mr. Jones: I got that mobile specially. My first one. Made sure your mother gave you the number. They don’t allow them in hospitals, not normally, but they made an exception for me. I was waiting for an important call.

 

So the mum was supposed to give him the number not the mobile.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Thank you, I didn't remember Mum being mentioned aside from on the dead list.

 

The only other time i can remember Mum being  mentioned in the novel Twlight streets when Gwen asks Ianto about ABBA, which lead into a convo about his sexuality. It's not much of a convo aside from Ianto attitude which i loved LOL. Where he basically tells her for someone who is supposed to be the heart, she talks out of her arse about things she has no idea about LOL

[Swansong]

 

Where am I getting that the dad left the family and that's why Ianto and him had a falling out? Yeah, Ianto never mentioned his mom on the show, but there is at least one reference in a book, I think.

Not sure. i think I thought that too because of HOTD, but I read that portion of the transcript and it never mentions why things are tense. Maybe one of the books or someone speculated it?

[Dizzy76]

Catching up on a day's worth of comments.  I could read conversations about Ianto all day!

 

Itsmeyousee, I actually love that little bit of conversation between Ianto and Gwen in Twilight Streets.  When I heard about it, I had to go searching to see if I could find it anywhere.  I wasn't able to get a hold of the book without paying for it but I did manage to stumble upon a transcript of that actual conversation.

 

From Twilight Streets - p. 125 and 126.  (Americanized punctuation because that's how the person who typed it transcribed it.)

 

 

"Do you like Abba?" she found herself asking Ianto.  As non sequiturs went, it was a good one.
 
He looked at her.  "Is this going to lead to a 'Jack' conversation?"

 

"No."

 

"Fine, Then I admire the Andersson/Ulvaeus writing partnership as craftsmen and songsmiths.  I believe "One of Us" may be the best song written about relationship break-ups ever, and I have a soft spot for the fusion of witty lyrical content and poptastic danceabilty of "Voulez-Vous", but let me make this absolutely clear:  I bloody loathe "Dancing Queen".  All right?"

 

Gwen stopped walking and just looked at him.

 

"What?" he asked.

 

"You've had this conversation before, haven't you?"

 

"Might have."

 

"Jack?"

 

"You honestly think Jack knows anything about music after 1948?"

 

"Who then?"

 

"Doesn't matter."

 

"Who?" She started walking again.  "Come on.  I might die tonight, never knowing."

 

"Me mam."

 

"Aww.  When she found out about Jack?"

 

"When I was fourteen."

 

Gwen stopped again.  "I dunno which scared me more - that your mam worked you out ten years before you did, or that the fourteen-year-old Ianto Jones used the phrase 'poptastic danceability' without getting beaten up.'

 

Ianto stopped suddenly.  "She didn't work me out, Gwen.  No one has.  And if I ever do, I'll let you know."

 

Gwen smiled, nudged his arm.  "Oh come on, smile.  Lisa, Jack... being bisexual is hardly a crime.  Best of both worlds, isn't it?"

 

And Ianto pushed her away.  "No Gwen.  No, really it's bloody not.  It's the worst of any world because you don't really belong anywhere, because you are never sure of yourself or those around you.  You can't trust in anyone, their motives or their intentions.  And because of that, you have, in a world that likes its nice shiny labels, no true identity.  For Torchwood's 'Little Miss Sensitive', you don't half talk crap sometimes.  So do me a favour and shut up about it, all right?"

 

I love this because one, Gwen got put in her place a bit.  But I also love it because I think it brings up an interesting point about what labels can do for to someone who doesn't quite fit into what other's consider the normal labels.  I don't know if I worded that properly but when I was going up, I definitely felt some of this so it kind of speaks to my past self.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Dizzy76

[itsmeyousee]

I agree with the author about the song One Of Us, but i also love Dancing Queen LOL.  While i like Ianto's attitude and telling Gwen to stick. It's an odd place to have the convo and at an odd time and i surprising ask if Gwen is really that much of git, asking about ABBA really ?

 

I'll pop over to the extra topic Dizzy, so you know what's happening at that stage of the book.

[Captanne]

Jesus, that conversation makes me loathe Gwen even more.  Was that intentional?

 

ANYway, I have no problem reconciling bad feelings towards your father for a perceived slight one had as a child.  (Even a bruise or a broken bone.)

 

Btw, my Father and I were best friends so it's not from personal experience.  But I have no problem with a child blaming a parent for something the child perceived as a harm.  Conceivably, the parent could go through his or her whole life without ever realizing how an event affected the child's opinion of him or her.

 

Drop a child from a swing by accident (it happens.)  The child goes through life thinking you're a monster.  You think there was an accident and the child recovered physically -- you can't predict how they respond mentally.

 

I'm sure this happens all the time.  

 

And, again, no this isn't from personal experience.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

A child might,  but if it really was a one time accident and just one incident I think as an adult, especially one who had been through the experiences Ianto had, would understand that sometimes things happen even when we don't mean for it to (like for instance two people getting killed when we're trying to save our cybergirlfriend) and develop more nuance in their thinking. I assume he saw his father as abusive because of more than this one incident. He does suggest that by saying he was always too hard on him and I assume pushing him on the swing until he hurt himself was just another example of 'pushing him too hard' in Ianto's mind.

 

Of course the way the whole exchange is written I do remember wondering when I watched it if they were really trying to suggest his father might have been abusive or trying to suggest that his father was extraordinarily bad at pushing swings. I tend to go either way.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

Oh, I totally agree Swansong.  I think what I was/am getting at is that misunderstandings happen in a child's mind.  

 

But I think it's perfectly probable that Ianto's father did push him too hard.  Perhaps because he saw potential in Ianto that he found frustrated in his own life. (That's a pretty common trope -- a parent pushes a child because he loves him too much and sees all the lost opportunities in his own life that he doesn't want his child to miss.  So he projects his own desires for himself on his child.  In a kind of sweet way, it's a compliment to the child saying, "You're so smart and clever, you can make it better than I did.  I will give you the benefit of my years of learning and experience to help you be better than I was because you can do it!")

 

It just doesn't translate as love, rather as expectations and pressure.

 

Now my imagination is running wild -- but it's a pretty common trope so I don't find it so unreasonable.

 

There is nothing preventing anyone assuming Ianto's father was an abusive, flaming asshole except what we saw in House of the Dead.

 

We just don't know.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

 

It just doesn't translate as love, rather as expectations and pressure.

Now my imagination is running wild -- but it's a pretty common trope so I don't find it so unreasonable.

There is nothing preventing anyone assuming Ianto's father was an abusive, flaming asshole except what we saw in House of the Dead.

 

I definitely get that and I assume that's where they were going. Of course the way the whole exchange is written I do remember wondering when I watched it if they were really trying to suggest his father might have been abusive or trying to suggest that his father was extraordinarily bad at pushing swings. I felt like I was supposed to take from it that his father pushed Ianto too hard in life because that sounds more like RTD's speed, but the way it comes off it really did just sound like Ianto was annoyed about the incident because he believed his father was the type to push the swing too hard and Ianto's accident was the inevitable consequence of that.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Swansong

[Captanne]

ETA:   This works particularly well in the "He wasn't a master tailor, he was a clerk at Debenham's." lie.  (Ie, he wasn't a pharmacist, he was a night janitor at CVS.)  However, since I don't believe that fucking lie for one hot second, it also works if Ianto's father was a meticulous, careful artisan like a Master Tailor.  He sees his achievements and wants Ianto to have the same success.  To find a craft he loves and become the very best at it.

 

It's still an awkward fit, though -- because RTD is trying to squeeze a Dickensian and Victorian idea of a Master Tailor father to an Archivist son* into a very 21st Century family growing up poor in Welsh council housing (tenement, in US English.)

 

*In other words, not a department store cashier to a son who plans to be a Toyota mechanic.  To have an artisan parent push his son who want to be a librarian is a very antiquated and sort of twee storyline.  Right out of the Victorian Era.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

I agree you could see him pushing him too hard because he worked as a Master Tailor and wanted to see his son succeed also or wasn't and wanted more for his son than he achieved, but I actually think the swing exchange works in a way the the Master tailor/he worked at Debenhams exchange doesn't in terms of exploring Ianto's relationship with his father even vaguely because I can see how "he pushed too hard" could have a double meaning of he pushed too hard on the swings/pushed me too hard all his life. But "he worked at Debenhams" doesn't really explain anything other than he worked at Debenhams. It's like saying he worked at a hospital. That could mean he was a janitor or security or worked in x-ray or a nurse or a doctor. It could mean he worked in the office or on the front desk, in billing, was head of a department, a manager etc. Do the writers really believe that the only people who work in Department stores are all automatically low-level staff or shop clerks so saying he worked at Debenhams automatically explains that? lol!

[Captanne]

Yeah, but the way Rhiannon spits at Gwen, "He wasn't a Master Tailor, he worked at Debenham's", totally implied his job was menial.  To me, at least.

 

Like saying, "He wasn't on the Apple iPhone design team in Cupertino, he was a clerk at the genius bar in Rockville."

Edited August 9, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

He wasn't a Master Tailor, he worked at Debenham's", totally implied his job was menial.  To me, at least.

That's my point. When she says Debenhams she says it as if we're supposed to automatically assume that the only people who work at Debenhams are lowly shop clerks. If someone only told me they worked at Apple or where-ever that wouldn't automatically tell me anything about what they actually do there. Yeah they could be on the design team, but they could also be in sales or HR or a receptionist.I thought it was weird they didn't just have her say shop clerk if that's what she meant.   

Edited August 9, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

I guess in the UK it's a bit of a slam? 'He's not a master chef, he works at McDonalds!'

[Captanne]

I don't think RTD is that subtle.

 

I think working at Debenham's versus being a Master Tailor (Saville Row sort) is a slam.  It's like saying, "He told you he had Dom Perignon when what he really had was Asti Spumanti."  He was putting on airs and lied to you.

 

That's why Rhiannon spat it at Gwen....to slam right home how little Gwen really knew about Ianto.

ETA:  The fact that this doesn't translate from UK to American and is just hateful anyway (who talks about class now and isn't an asshole?) tells me how far the show had descended into gutter snipe meanness.  Having Ianto act like a fifth grader in the hospital, Jack look like something smelled bad and then turn Ianto into a liar about his roots, not to mention the insultingly stupid way he died -- is just indicative of how awful this series was.  I'm not sure whether RTD had anything to do with it or it went so badly off the rails because he didn't -- I don't really care.  The show was awful and cruel to its characters and to its audience and RTD was at the helm.  He bears the blame.

[Captanne]

EETA:  My Sainted Mother was Welsh and I grew up in a household full of BBC shows and UK English.  That's why the Debenham's comment and, as an aside, Ianto looking like a rent boy in Bute Park translates so clearly to me.  I totally get that we really don't have boy hookers in dark parks here in the States as a cliche the way the Brits do (also, middle class men meeting clandestinely in dark parks, running to the public lavatories, unscrewing the light bulbs and then screwing each other).  But we do have equivalents of Debenham's -- think JC Penney.  

[Dizzy76]

As someone from America, I didn't get the significance of the rent boy outfit (though I did think Ianto was dressing for what he thought Jack might find appealing in order to get his attention) but I did get what Rhiannon was saying when she corrected Gwen about their father working at Debenham's.  The delivery (tone and face) was enough for me to understand that I was being told that Rhiannon thought Ianto had told a lie about his father to make him seem better than he was class-wise.

 

However, my own personal headcanon is that just because their father worked at Debenham's doesn't mean that he wasn't a great tailor.  I mean, we know that he knows at least a bit about tailoring.  But what if he really was talented?  Maybe he was never able to find the success of a true master tailor but that doesn't mean that he didn't have the knowledge of one.  Maybe their father really could tell the inside leg measurement from a person's stride across a shop's threshold!  Cause the way I see it, there's a good chance that Ianto learned that skill from him.  Or at least learned enough to suss out Gwen's measurements from the hub security cameras and grab clothes that fit for Rhys just by looking at him.  Maybe that's the one thing Ianto took from his dad that isn't tainted in any way or complicated and so when he speaks of him, he refers to him in the way he truly sees him regarding this skill - a master tailor.

 

Rhiannon may not see any of this in the same way Ianto does because she never learned those skills from him.  Maybe she never knew just how talented their father was.  She only knew that he worked at a run of the mill department store.

 

There are tons of people who are great at something, but have unfortunately, never gotten the break they needed to find success in it.  Tons of people who through crappy life circumstances, never even had the chance to make a real go of things.  I see Ianto's dad as one of those people.  And in my mind, just because he was working at Debenham's doesn't mean that he wasn't still using his inseam skills for those customers.

[Swansong]

I'm from London and I don't see the significance of the rent boy outfit either. It's not as if he only wears the outfit in the park and I can't really see how what he wears is ultimately more significant than what he actually says and does. It just seems like a bit of an overfocus on something that's never really the point. Even when he has the opportunity to use sex as a last minute ditch effort when he's not really got anywhere with Jack he still doesn't which kind of defeats the purpose of playing rentboy.

[itsmeyousee]

Wow, lots of chatting happening here while i was sleeping LOL

 

My POV Ianto isn't dressed as a "rent boy" , they dressed casual Ianto much like GDL, he likes jewellery , studs etc. Look at how Ianto is dressed while offering Jack the coffee , no park no night time yet dressed basically the in the same fashion.

 

As for Dad and abusive or not i think that would totally depend on what's considered abusive back in the 80's. Pushing your son to be hard and "man up" when you live in a rough area wouldn't be seen as abuse back then. Now yes , but then i don't think so.

 

And i think the point was Rhiannon doesn't think so either. Remember she blames Ianto for breaking his own leg, she says " you should have held on tighter". I think we are meant to be surprised/ shocked by where ianto comes from and how different his sister is from Ianto, eg "that posh restaurant in town " convo. Rhiannon is who would expect to meet on an Estate, Ianto isn't. I don't know what terms you would use in America but here in Oz it would be called Housing Commission , where poor people live with Government benefits basically.

 

Much like dad and Debenhams , it's  a class thing. And Ianto has risen above his station in life cliche abounds here LOL.But once again that doesn't make Ianto a liar to me. It means he is comfortable talking about certain aspects of his life and not other parts but since Jack knows about his Family anyway, i don't see how it changes their relationship either. The only person who has their assumptions challenged is Gwen and since it's clear she really doesn't know Ianto on a more personal basis , who cares

 

What it shows to me, is that Ianto and Owen are very similar in that aspect both came from hard lives but worked hard to become something more than was expected of them. Which was the point of the kids that the Government was damning in COE that these kids won't make anything of themselves and are a burden on society , when clearly that's wrong but that's their justification in which kids they are choosing

[Swansong]

 

I think we are meant to be surprised/ shocked by where ianto comes from and how different his sister is from Ianto, eg "that posh restaurant in town " convo. Rhiannon is who would expect to meet on an Estate, Ianto isn't. I don't know what terms you would use in America but here in Oz it would be called Housing Commission , where poor people live with Government benefits basically.

 He's pretty much the only one it's suggested didn't go to university even though he's clearly bright enough, presumably spent his time before joining Torchwood drifting from job to job, did a bit of petty theft and even before he joins Torchwood Cardiff is a pretty decent con man. That suggests someone who likely didn't have a lot of opportunities and grew up having to rely on their wits a lot more than Rhiannon's assertion that their father worked at Debenhams. In one of the books don't they say his father worked in the mines. I'm not sure it was really all that surprising where he came from.

 

If anything surprised me it was how much of a negative they made him wanting more than to remain on an estate seem.  

 

Also, more of an aside They make him seem like he rarely visits and is kind of uncomfortable with his family, but either they just leave the door wide open on their rough estate or he has a key and feels comfortable enough to just use it and walk in at will? Not that it was a big thing, but it kind of amused me. 

[itsmeyousee]

Also, more of an aside They make him seem like he rarely visits and is kind of uncomfortable with his family, but either they just leave the door wide open on their rough estate or he has a key and feels comfortable enough to just use it and walk in at will? Not that it was a big thing, but it kind of amused me. 

I think the door is open, as they all seem to know everyone around them. I do wonder though how much time or not Ianto has spent with them. Cause he also knows the neighbours, he knows the newsagent guy for Rhi to get the right paper. Maybe it seems like he hardly see them cause they didn't know about Jack. But once Rhi guilts Ianto into talking he is very open with her. He just doesn't want a big deep and meaningful convo, not like he has the answers himself anyway LOL

[Captanne]

Maybe it's an age thing?  I grew up in the 60s?  Because that rent boy outfit screams out to me.  Perhaps it's just different eras in the buggery laws?  Because it was an absolute cliche about men meeting in parks -- either to meet each other (randomly -- not dates -- just hooking up with other men in a dark public park.  Or to pay for a quick blow job from a rent boy.  Absolute cliche.)

 

Anyway, I think we all come at it from different angles (Mum was from South Wales by way of Michigan and then the mid-Atlantic region) and this horse is truly beaten.  LOL  I've been making this point for years now and (like the "did they or didn't they before Cyberwoman" debate) we just don't have enough to go on.

 

At this point I feel kind of silly even bringing it up. 

Edited August 10, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

Maybe it's an age thing?  I grew up in the 60s?  Because that rent boy outfit screams out to me.  Perhaps it's just different eras in the buggery laws?  Because it was an absolute cliche about men meeting in parks -- either to meet each other (randomly -- not dates -- just hooking up with other men in a dark public park.  Or to pay for a quick blow job from a rent boy.  Absolute cliche.)

Even if it was a nod to this cliche wouldn't it be more a subversion of the typical trend than an example of it? Because in fact as it turns out neither of these men are in the park looking for sex. They both have other motivations. Sex only becomes an issue later on in the segment.

 

 

I think the door is open, as they all seem to know everyone around them. I do wonder though how much time or not Ianto has spent with them. Cause he also knows the neighbours, he knows the newsagent guy for Rhi to get the right paper. Maybe it seems like he hardly see them cause they didn't know about Jack. But once Rhi guilts Ianto into talking he is very open with her. He just doesn't want a big deep and meaningful convo, not like he has the answers himself anyway LOL

I thought it was funny because it's supposed to be a rough neighbourhood where kids are bold enough to steal a car right under people's noses, but then people just leave their doors open for anyone to walk through. That's kind of a tv cliche though.  I guess Ianto grew up this particular neighbourhood and not just one similar to it?, but either I'm not sure you'd know it with the way they have him acting in the first episode. lol. I guess that's why he needs Gwen to teach him how to thieve later on. 

[Captanne]

I don't know if I'd call it a subversion.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion -- which tells me it's a reversal of authority.  (I looked it up because I wasn't totally sure how it applied here.)  

 

Rather, I see merely a "version" of it.  Ianto knows about Jack from Torchwood One.  Knows he's a rake and a  "ladies man" with tastes that run to both genders.  Ianto needs to get Lisa into Torchwood Three for all the reasons we know about.  He needs a job there.  So, his first attempt to get into Jack's good graces is by "accidentally" running into him in the Park and looking sexy with overtones of being on offer.  That clearly doesn't work.  Not only that, but it backfires -- Jack does his research on this kid and not only won't hire him because he's cheeky but won't hire him because now he knows Ianto is former Torchwood One.  

 

So his next attempt is a "full frontal" attack in his best suit in a warehouse and proving he can be helpful "on the job".  That, um, sort of works.  He gets the job.

 

But the sexual overtones are still there.  He did read Jack correctly right from the get-go.  He may not have taken him up on the "offer" in the park but he surely is affected by the "roll on the floor".  (Ironically, though, and with huge ramifications in both their lives, so is Ianto.)

 

That's how I saw it.  In a nutshell.

[indeed]

Ianto wasn't really offering himself up in the park, though. He purposefully puts Jack on edge by mentioning Weevils. I agree the setting is kind of a wink--I remember reading about that at the time they were filming it--but you lose me with the actual offer of possible sexy fun times. (And that wouldn't be my idea of a rent boy outfit.)

Edited August 10, 2014 by indeed

[Dizzy76]

Although I don't think Ianto was literally "offering himself up" to Jack, I do agree with Captanne that he was dressed the way he was dressed because he had heard all about Jack and wanted to physically look appealing in order to grab and even hold Jack's attention.  I may not have gone as far as rent boy in my interpretation of that scene but I definitely got the vibe that Ianto was in that park trying to look good and attractive to Jack.  And I mean that in more ways than one. 

 

Which brings me to the mention of Weevils.  I don't think he was intentionally trying to put Jack on edge.  I think Ianto thought that him knowing about Weevils would make him more appealing.  Or at least further grab Jack's attention.  Captanne talks about Ianto proving himself useful in the warehouse, I think his first attempt was actually in the park with the weevil.   Unfortunately, he didn't have a clue that throwing the word Weevil around would put Jack on edge and do the exact opposite of what he'd intended to achieve that night.  Jack completely closed up at that point.

 

I may be reading this wrong, but it seems that for some of you, bringing up that Ianto was dressed like a rent boy or even just simply dressing for Jack automatically means that Ianto was willing and ready to have sex with Jack that first night.   It's very possible that I'm wrong about this but just in case I'm not, I'm curious why that is?  I'm very middle of the road about it all because I absolutely think he was dressing to catch Jack's eye and was flirting to try and hold Jack's attention, but to me that in no way means that he intended it to actually lead to sex that night.  I won't get into whether or not he was desperate enough to consider sleeping with Jack but I'll just say that the right person arguing for that can get me second guessing my take on it.  Cause I do agree that he was pretty desperate.

 

Also, concerning his park outfit, I think he wore the same thing the next day because he was giving that outfit another go.  I always thought he was hoping that in daylight, Jack would maybe see him better in it.  Yes, it was most likely something he wore anyway in his down time (maybe not all together like that) but that doesn't mean it wasn't purposely picked for Jack.  I certainly had clothes that I owned that I would put on when going out for the night with friends but that I absolutely had to wear when someone I liked was going to be around because I knew I looked good in them. 

 

I think that after Jack lays out exactly why he wants nothing to do with Ianto, Ianto takes a different approach to things.  Cause no matter how edible he looks to Jack or even how qualified he might be for a job at Torchwood 3, Jack has a biased against him that's deep and strong.  But bringing Jack a pterodactyl and dressing like you mean business - well that was a different kind of in your face approach that ended up working.  But the pterodactyl was definitely needed cause the suit didn't do it alone.  Although Jack ends up admitting that he liked the suit.

 

 

ETA:  Why do I seem to always write mini novels when I comment?  Why can't I ever just say what I want to say in a nice simple paragraph, lol!

Edited August 10, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Captanne]

Dizzy76, I agree with you, too.

 

As for literally offering his "services" -- I would venture to say that Ianto wasn't sure what was going to happen but that he was dressed for the part should Jack head that direction.  Does that make sense?

[indeed]

I definitely got the vibe that Ianto was in that park trying to look good and attractive to Jack.

Yes, I think that was the intention. I just get a different idea when I think of a possible rent boy outfit, and Ianto just seemed like he was dressing the way a young man would to go out clubbing or to look nice (but casual) for someone. And maybe I used the wrong words (re: 'on edge')--he definitely meant to pique Jack's curiosity by tipping Jack off to knowing about Weevils--Ianto just looked very sure of himself during that part of the exchange.

(ETA: For those interested, GDL and his wife had a baby boy today--Eli Andrew Lloyd!)

Edited August 10, 2014 by indeed

[Swansong]

I think he mentioned weevils knowing Jack would get suspicious and look into him. That was part of the plan because at that point he's still relative calm about things. What he didn't expect was for Jack to be so negative about his Torchwood one affiliation. That likely wasn't something he factored in because even if Jack was sceptical he probably thought his skills and experience would win him over. That's why the fact that he chooses to wear the suit for their next meeting is very interesting to me because he seems to be aligning himself with Torchwood One despite knowing Jack's aversion. He even makes that comment about how TW One would have had the correct gear if they were the ones dealing with the dinosaur which seems like a dig at Jack about how he handle things.Obviously from a meta point Ianto wears tge suit because wearing suits is his signatureit's because Ianto wears suits, but it seems to be almost a challenge.

Also what Indeed said.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

I think Ianto's goal was to pique Jack's interest, and he dressed and acted with that in mind.  But that failed because Jack's hatred of Torchwood 1 trumped his initial interest in Ianto.  When Ianto shows up again in the suit, he's no longer trying to appeal to Jack in a romantic way but trying to show his all business side trying to show how useful he'd be to Torchwood 3.  Then, there's the moment that changes things between Jack and Ianto.  In the effort to capture Myfanwy, Ianto drops the act and has a real moment of connection with Jack.   For all Ianto's efforts, it's the real him and the genuine spark between him and Jack that gets him the job and not his manipulations.  That devastates Ianto because it was supposed to be all about LIsa, but he felt something for Jack that betrays her.  He probably also felt guilt for bonding with Jack under false pretenses.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Luckylyn

[itsmeyousee]

What i think when the term "rent boy" is used, means Ianto would have had sex right then for the job and i don't believe that. One I don't think Ianto is that stupid or Jack. You can hear all the rumours you want, saying Jack will do anyone but then he has done you, what's next ? And there has to be a next and i'm sure Ianto would have thought of what's next, cause that's how he thinks.

 

Ianto/GDL is a very good looking man and he does dress well even in the casual gear but his style isn't different from night to day in Fragments, so i don't get how he is a rent boy or serving himself up to Jack. I think people are forgetting the Ianto in this. He likes to dress well, he likes to flirt and not just with Jack.

 

Yes he is there to introduce himself to Jack, he mentions the weevils intentionally to attract Jack's full attention. He doesn't even mentioned a job until  the next meeting once he knows Jack knows all about him. I agree with Swansong The bit Ianto wasn't expecting was Jack's reaction about him already being Torchwood and from 1. So he changes his idea and instead of talking he shows Jack what someone from TW1 can do

 

I just think there is too much emphasis on the sexual part of them. Which is part of their natural Jack and Ianto chemistry and all the other parts, about them get reduced.

 

I'm not saying that at some stage if Ianto got that desperate , he wouldn't have gone the sex angle. Cause this guy would have done anything for Lisa. I just don't believe Ianto thinks if he can get Jack to have sex with him all his problems get solved. I think it creates more problems.

[Dizzy76]

But that's my question: why does Ianto dressing like he does and wanting Jack to find him attractive automatically means that Ianto was willing to sleep with Jack?  Even if his outfit was indeed something you would see on a rent boy, that doesn't mean that he was looking to hook up with Jack that night or even that Jack would have done anything.  If it makes it come across better, look at what Ianto wore as a costume or even a job interview outfit.  Just...this particular outfit was playing to what he assumed would be pleasing to Jack. 

 

I don't think saying that Ianto dressed specifically for Jack that night (or the next day) takes anything from Ianto as a person.  I just think he's smart and him knowing what most people seemed to know about Jack led him to try and flirt and dress his way into getting Jack's attention.   Also, I don't think it take anything away from Jack either.  I do however think that when you go around cultivating an image/persona, you have to expect that some people are going to interact with you based on that image/persona.  And how many times have people responding to him in a certain way given him the upper hand?  Some people probably didn't expect much from him beyond the flirting and ogling and brashness.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Swansong]

 

why does Ianto dressing like he does and wanting Jack to find him attractive automatically means that Ianto was willing to sleep with Jack?  E

Lol! Actually I'm pretty sure that was the point being made. That Ianto's plan was to give Jack the impression he was a rentboy in the hopes that Jack would be enticed into having sex with him in the park and as a consequence give him a job. That's what's being refuted. Not whether Ianto may have dressed a particular way to look attractive. 

[Captanne]

Good God I think we all agree on the point!  (After all these years.  I wonder if a thanks to previously.tv is in order?  They gave us the venue to hash it all out.)

 

Luckylyn, as per usual, you have summed it up beautifully and if I could "double plus good" I would, but the site only gives one opportunity to "like".  LOL

 

Here, here for a new baby Lloyd in the world!  Yay!  That's marvelous news!  

[Swansong]

 

Good God I think we all agree on the point!

Not really! lol. But it probably is time to move on.

[itsmeyousee]

Not really! lol. But it probably is time to move on.

Ditto Swansong

 

Sorry captanne but no agreement here (smiles)

[itsmeyousee]

I'm sure we have probably discussed this loads of time LOL But you do guys think the biggest part of Ianto's attraction to Jack is that he can't die ?

 

Cause i don't i think it makes it harder for Ianto. He now has different fears to deal with and more baggage than anyone can imagine. For that to be part of the attraction wouldn't Ianto have to know before he started with Jack that he couldn't stay dead but he doesn't seem to know.

 

Also in a strange way as we watch Gwen get so used to Jack dying, that's it just his thing and it doesn't bother her anymore. Ianto went the opposite way, the more feelings he had for Jack the deeper he felt Jack's pain and death and wasn't comfortable until Jack was back on his feet again.

[indeed]

Ianto spent an awful lot of time thinking Jack was going to leave him, so I don't know how appealing the idea of dating an immortal guy was to him. It may have been part of the attraction, but it certainly didn't make things easier.

[Luckylyn]

Mousey, I've considered that Ianto may have considerd Jack as a safe person to be involved with because Jack won't die on him, and he won't have to mourn Jack like he does Lisa.  I don't think Ianto anticipated that he would end up falling in love with Jack when they started sleeping together.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Swansong]

I think if CJH and the coat sniffing are anything to go by Ianto was already pretty into Jack before he found out he was immortal so I'm not sure how much that factored into him wanting to be with Jack. And it wasn't as if Ianto didn't have to go through watching Jack die. I imagine watching someone you care about dying over and over, sometimes in pretty horrific ways, and never being entirely sure that this might be the time he doesn't come back would be kind of awful in its own way to having them die permanently. Plus Ianto seemed, weirdly to me especially after he admits in COE he doesn't even feel confident enough in the relationship to even call it a relationship, very conscious of how Jack being immortal meant that after a time he'd eventually be forgotten and that seemed to bother him a lot. Not to mention as Ianto himself pointed out there are other ways to leave a person besides death and he seemed just as conscious of that fact where Jack was concerned. I think for Ianto the very fact that Jack was immortal made the idea of him leaving Ianto for something or someone else eventually even more of a likely reality not less of one regardless of how long the relationship lasted..

Edited August 23, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

I agree Luckylyn that Ianto wasn't looking for love when he first got together with Jack but since there isn't any indication that Ianto knew Jack couldn't stay dead until EOD when he already has feelings, i don't know when Jack comes back in KKBB that  Ianto considers that a plus for himself, having an immortal man.

 

I'm more in line with Indeed it created more fears for Ianto since now he had a huge past and future of Jack's that he couldn't be a part of and KKBB showed Ianto that. And from then on that is the constant that Jack won't remember him or he will leave or Jack doesn't want to be there and is dreaming of other times or old partners coming back etc.

 

Then there is how we see Ianto reacts to Jack dying, he feels it more and more, like he is grieving until Jack is back and talking or whatever. He is scared that this  thing of Jack's will run out, so it's not a comfort to Ianto. Compared it to Gwen when she now sees it as a comfort, that is just Jack and he will be back.

 

I think Ianto thought Jack was safe to get involved with cause Ianto wasn't expecting to have feelings and he wasn't expecting Jack to either. It didn't have anything to do with Jack's secrets. It had to do with Jack's attitude towards relationships and sex and it wouldn't get as complicated as it got but Ianto forgot to factor in his own emotions probably believing that after Lisa he wouldn't be falling in love any time soon but he was wrong.

[Dizzy76]

 

I think Ianto thought Jack was safe to get involved with cause Ianto wasn't expecting to have feelings and he wasn't expecting Jack to either. It didn't have anything to do with Jack's secrets. It had to do with Jack's attitude towards relationships and sex and it wouldn't get as complicated as it got but Ianto forgot to factor in his own emotions probably believing that after Lisa he wouldn't be falling in love any time soon but he was wrong.

I think this right here perfectly sums up my feelings on the matter.  Even though I just won't ever believe that Ianto didn't suspect anything concerning Jack's "condition" I do believe that he didn't know exactly what was going on so.  Therefore, Jack's immortality was not something he was viewing as a positive when they started hooking up.  Like everyone else, I also agree that by the time Ianto learns the whole truth, he's already developed real feelings for Jack.