Ianto Jones: Knows Everything

[Luckylyn]

I loved this character.   He was snarky, clever, and efficient.   I think GDL took a character with very little writing and made it into someone really compelling to watch.   His back story was something they could have mined more out of especially since there were other survivors of Canary Wharf that he could have interacted with.

[Swansong]

It's seems funny to say because he was the least developed character on the show, but he was largely the reason I stuck with the show in s1. I was kind of intrigued about his life at Torchwood 1. Since they didn't seem to know what to do with him I wish they'd done a bit more with that. I know S3 suggested that his suit wearing was about not wanting to be like his family or something, but I always saw it as a continuation of his time at Torchwood 1. Considering TW3's and Jack's contempt for TW1 and its personnel I always imagine Ianto as kind of conflicted about TW1. I always thought it was interesting in Fragments when he shows up in the suit and basically looking like a TW1 clone because it seems almost defiant especially since it happens right after Jack expressed his contempt for Ianto being TW1 personnel. I was also interested in his role at TW3. It clearly extended beyond serving coffee. In the pilot he's the one who erases Gwen's computer and Jack tells him to standby in case Owen needs support and I could be remembering wrong, but isn't he the one putting away the items everyone took out of the Hub , but for most of the first half of s1 all we really see him doing is serve coffee and food. In Ghost Machine there's this scene where's he's basically just standing there with a tray of mugs and everyone is just ignoring him and the mugs. lol. I was intrigued by his relationship with Lisa, his relationship with the rest of the survivors of TW, his frenemies relationship with Owen, his relationship with Tosh, even his friendship with Gwen, his seeming fascination with old things (including Jack). Basically I just wanted to know more about him and I hate that the show basically copped out on his development and then tried to suggest it was deliberate because he was just oh so mysterious. 

 

I enjoyed the rare scenes we got of his relationship with Jack, but I wish the show had thought of him as more than Jack's appendage. They hinted at all these things about him, but never bothered to follow through on any of them and then they just killed him off in the lamest, most disinterested way possible.

 

I also wish we'd seen more of his relationship with Tosh. I always loved their scenes together.

 

There's a scene in s3 where Ianto tries to get a message to his family after they're on the run and his nephew David seems to be the only one who knows what's going on. It made me think Ianto had secretly been giving him secret spy tips.  

Edited May 31, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

 

I enjoyed the rare scenes we got of his relationship with Jack, but I wish the show had thought of him as more than Jack's appendage. They hinted at all these things about him, but never bothered to follow through on any of them and then they just killed him off in the lamest, most disinterested way possible.

 

I completely agree and feel like the writers only saw Ianto as useful to be part of Jack's story.  I shipped Jack/Ianto but cared about Ianto on his own.  I feel like we were just getting to know him and then they killed him off.  I wanted more of his family dynamics.  I was curious if about if Ianto kept in touch with any other Canary Wharf survivors.  It grates that he's the only Torchwood member whose apartment we never saw.

[Captanne]

Ianto was the deepest, richest and most thought-provoking character in the series for me.  We were told so little but what we were told had deep, deep ties to the entire franchise; along with his more superficial storyline which included "efficient, handsome, Welsher than Welsh, sexual, brave and absolutely chicken-shit."

 

One of Ianto's strongest characteristics that came across to me consistently was his survival instinct. 

 

Which is why CoE was yet again a total character assassination -- if Decker was a cockroach, Ianto had long before been set up as a better one.  (He survived so much through his cunning.  He survived Torchwood One for fuck's sake.  What the flying fuck he was doing in that Farty Muppet in a Box's room with just a 9mm is beyond me.  It actually makes me mad so I'll stop writing now

Edited May 31, 2014 by Captanne

[Luckylyn]

The whole confrontation with the 456 was horribly written.  Ianto and Jack aren't amateurs.  They had zero plan except to say "No" to the 456 and no back up plan in case the 456 had a nasty reaction.  Why even confront the 456 in person if you have nothing to fight with?  It was such an unnecessarily stupid death.   They claim he died heroically, but it was just idiotic.  I don't even know what purpose Ianto served.   Why did he have to go with Jack at all?

 

Basically RTD decided Ianto had to die and was determined to make it happen even if it was illogical.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Luckylyn

[Captanne]

PSST:  Ianto's not dead.  He's floating in the ether of "House of the Dead" just waiting for the Rift to reopen.

 

He's there, having a pint with Tupac and Elvis.

[indeed]

There's a scene in s3 where Ianto tries to get a message to his family after they're on the run and his nephew David seems to be the only one who knows what's going on. It made me think Ianto had secretly been giving him secret spy tips.

And yet they also seemed to set up the fact that Ianto was an absentee uncle who didn't really have much time for his family. So, David and the whole estate being savvy enough to pass messages around (I don't remember what exactly happened , but I remember a big eye roll coming on around then) was another "we need this so the script works" inconsistency IMO.

[Captanne]

CoE was a hot mess.  I do not for the life of me understand why it was so popular.  I really don't.  The Jack/Ianto relationship was almost entirely unappealing (Jack treated Ianto like he smelled bad and Ianto acted like a spotty teenager.)  Gwen was intolerable -- the moment she started teaching Ianto how to pick pockets I thought I'd scream.  The Big Bad was a vomitty, withdrawing junkie muppet in a box with gapingly obvious vulnerabilities that the stupid "heroes" never took advantage of.  There was no "team" to speak of.  The characterizations were two dimensional and utterly predictable.  (Government is the Big Bad Meanie with Groupthink issues?  What a shock.)

 

ETA:  Sorry, this sort of had nothing to do with Ianto -- whose thread this is.  I'm getting used to the threads and am finding them a bit hard to follow.  The conversation goes off on one direction and I forget the original subject.  Old age.  

Edited June 2, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

 

And yet they also seemed to set up the fact that Ianto was an absentee uncle who didn't really have much time for his family. So, David and the whole estate being savvy enough to pass messages around (I don't remember what exactly happened , but I remember a big eye roll coming on around then) was another "we need this so the script works" inconsistency IMO.

That's why it stood out for me.

[itsmeyousee]

Hello everyone

 

Just been watching myself some Torchwood and not in any order just Ianto time really. And the best for me is Cyverwoman and not just because it's an Ianto ep but because of the passion. Whether you hate it or not you can't deny this guy love for Lisa.

[indeed]

Hi, itsmeyousee! Glad you made it over here! I just opened a Cyberwoman thread. I really want to watch that one again (and Countrycide), but I'm trying to force myself to watch completely from the beginning. I have a tendency to fast-forward to the Ianto parts...

Edited June 10, 2014 by indeed

[itsmeyousee]

Hi Indeed and thank you

 

I know what you mean when i was doing the rewatch , it was a real struggle those first 3 eps. And i remember feeling that way when i first watched LOL Thank goodness for the previews at the end of the eps, cause i saw the Cyberwoman one and thought " one last chance" and it's been my fav since then. Adam made me check out TW, Cyberwoman made me stay.

[Luckylyn]

Mousey!   Hi.

 

Ianto really is someone who loves with everything he has even to his own detriment.  I get his denial about Lisa even while thinking his mistakes were horrendous.

[Luckylyn]

I think Ianto survived the trauma of Canary Wharf because of his belief that Lisa could be saved and that she needed him.   I think being needed is a coping mechanism that continued after losing Lisa.  In CJH,  Ianto stresses that Jack needs him.   At that point, being needed mattered more than being loved.

[Swansong]

I find it interesting that Ianto claims Jack needs him in CJH because one of his complaints in Cyberwoman is that Jack never took any interest in him or his life. So is that something he just tells himself to get through the day post Lisa or are we supposed to see this as evident? Because I have to admit at this point in s1 I don't even see any real evidence of that at all especially in CJH. And it doesn't seem to take all that much for him to turn against Jack come the next episode either.

[Dizzy76]

Ianto, Ianto, Ianto.  I loved him from the very first episode even though the show didn't give me very much to go on.  OK, so maybe "love" is over exaggerating but I was most definitely intrigued.  And even though the show tried their hardest to give me very little to go on and keep him in the background, Ianto truly became my reason for watching episode after episode. 

 

I know that I owe a great deal of my Ianto love to Gareth and the way he chose to play him.  I really can't picture anyone else playing this character in the way that I would adore so much like Gareth did.  The way he could throw a look or deliver one of his lines.  Total awesomesauce!

 

But, I also have to say that even though it was most likely an unintentional thing, the show did manage to introduce backstory and ideas about him that made me want to get to know him more.  Things they had him do on the show that were probably meant to just keep him busy, were actually things that I noticed and helped to flesh him out a bit more.  Besides him saying that he knows everything about the hub/Torchwood, we got to see him do some technical work, recall things that the others couldn't, handle situations that by all rights he shouldn't have been able to handle or survive, and if you add in the web content, be a sounding board for Jack in a way that we didn't even see Gwen get to be on the show. 

 

All of these things came in bits and pieces and the show never expanded on any of them in a satisfying way.  And as it has been said before, as the only character on the show with a Torchwood One connection, I just don't get why the show treated him like such a throwaway character, 

 

COE!Ianto is a whole other thing for me and I walked away from that feeling anger at how his character got treated.  They couldn't just kill him off they had to try and discredit/devalue him while doing so. Thanks to forum discussions and character thoughts in the form of fanfiction, I've been able to come up with a way to keep Series 1 & 2 Ianto without totally ignoring COE. 

 

Because I am all about the web content, I can't talk about Ianto without talking about the 2 things I found the most interesting within said content.  The first thing I love is that they included a transcript of the conversation he had with an online counselor right after Canary Wharf and before showing up in Cardiff.  It's a nice look into what a bit of his thought process was.  The second thing I like was that for the Adam episode, they included scans of Ianto's journal.  His handwriting is a bit messier than I expected but the details and drawings for cases and objects the team came across was really cool.  It added another dimension to his character - or rather fleshed out the journal writing side of him.

 

Lastly, I definitely belong to the group of fans who identified with him far easier than I did with Gwen.  I wouldn't say that he became my point of view character but I often found that his emotions and reactions to things fell more in line with me.  So not only did he make me laugh but he got me to the emotional places too. 

 

There is so much that I wish the show would have done for his character - so much that angered me in the way he was handled.  But despite it all, I have never regretted being introduced to Ianto.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Luckylyn]

But, I also have to say that even though it was most likely an unintentional thing, the show did manage to introduce backstory and ideas about him that made me want to get to know him more.  Things they had him do on the show that were probably meant to just keep him busy, were actually things that I noticed and helped to flesh him out a bit more.  Besides him saying that he knows everything about the hub/Torchwood, we got to see him do some technical work, recall things that the others couldn't, handle situations that by all rights he shouldn't have been able to handle or survive, and if you add in the web content, be a sounding board for Jack in a way that we didn't even see Gwen get to be on the show.

 

All of these things came in bits and pieces and the show never expanded on any of them in a satisfying way.  And as it has been said before, as the only character on the show with a Torchwood One connection, I just don't get why the show treated him like such a throwaway character,

 

I feel like there was a really nice foundation for a lot of story with Ianto particularly with Canary Wharf, and I'm so bitter that it never got explored.  I was so hoping we'd get to see an episode where Ianto got reunited with another Canary Wharf survivor and they would explore some consequences for Jack's whole leave Torchwood 1 survivors on their own policy.  Jack did not retcon them or monitor them at all from what we saw in Fragments.  I guess we sorta got that from the radio play Submission, but it wasn't enough. 

 

Killing Ianto is such a stupid fashion was bad enough but making him a liar when he's dead and can't defend himself was too much.  It didn't even make logical sense since Fragments established that Jack did a background check on Ianto and that Ianto knew about it so would not bother to lie about his family.

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, COE and what they tried to say about Ianto just doesn't work for me.  And  you are completely right about the way they pulled all of that off.  But because that season did happen I've had to find a way to make peace with it in a way that I can be ok with.  After House of the Dead, I've decided that I am going to believe that Ianto and Rhiannon had different relationships with their father and it colored the way they spoke about him/chose to remember him.  Maybe he really was a tailor and was good at it but lost his job/business and had to work at Debenhams.  Maybe because Ianto always had the father that pushed him a bit too hard, and he wanted to try and forget some of the uglier sides of him, he chose to remember the dad that was a master tailor.  Maybe Rhiannon saw that as Ianto trying to forget where he really came from and who he came from and because she didn't have the same issues with their dad, was perfectly fine with the guy who worked at Debenhams.  She wasn't trying to be more than her past.

No clue if I am mucking that explanation up but that's kind of where I choose to sit.  Both siblings are telling the truth but maybe not the whole truth.  

 

Cause you are correct, Luckylyn - Fragments made it clear that Jack did a background check on Ianto and Ianto knew about it.  Not sure how thorough the background check was but I tend to believe it was a decent one and even if it wasn't, Ianto didn't know that.  PLUS, in COE Ianto yells at Jack about how he tells him everything as he's finding out that Jack hasn't really told him anything.  I can't believe that he would say something like that to Jack if he had indeed been lying to him all that time.  And even if that is what I am suppose to walk away thinking, it's just not going to happen.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Dizzy76

[Swansong]

 

It didn't even make logical sense since Fragments established that Jack did a background check on Ianto and that Ianto knew about it so would not bother to lie about his family.

I agree there's no logic to it, but if they couldn't even keep the basics of Jack's story straight it's probably no real surprise that they couldn't remember that they'd told us on screen that Jack did a background check on him before he even joined Torchwood. The background check covered enough to know what kind of student he was and his criminal background, but not even the most basicinfo on his family family?

 

I guess we sorta got that from the radio play Submission, but it wasn't enough.

Yeah I hoping they'd deal with the fact that they were only two of a handful of people who survived Canary wharf and their feelings on that. But I get the feeling that from the writer's pov the only thing interesting about Ianto was Jack so of course that's pretty much all he talks about with Carly too.

 

 

Not sure how thorough the background check was but I tend to believe it was a decent one and even if it wasn't, Ianto didn't know that.

If Ianto got away with a lie like that to Jack no less then it clearly wasn't a particularly good one considering the supposedly sensitive nature of Torchwood's work. I mean this is an organisation that is so secret it retcons its employees when they leave, but it doesn't do background checks to the level even certain government jobs might require to make sure there's nothing lurking in someone's background that might make them a liability or untrustworthy with sensitive information? But the worldbuilding on this show was always kind of poor so I guess I shouldn't be surprised they would suggest that.

 

 

PLUS, in COE Ianto yells at Jack about how he tells him everything as he's finding out that Jack hasn't really told him anything.

That always sounded like something Gwen would say rather than Ianto. Ianto never struck me as someone who felt compelled to share everything about his life or would demand that Jack tell him everything about his. But I guess he had to be that in COE. I do find it a bit odd that he supposedly lied to Jack about what his father did for a living because, I assume, he was ashamed about where he came from and I guess being working class and didn't want people to know about where he came from, but then told him about his sister enough that Jack knows that her children would be vulnerable and need protection when the government starts going after lower class kids?

Edited July 5, 2014 by Swansong

[indeed]

I know they knew each other from TW1, but was Carly even involved in Canary Wharf that day? I didn't think she was really a "survivor"...or maybe I'm remembering it wrong. So, yeah, they could have done much more with Ianto's TW1/Canary Wharf Battle connection, even in alternate media. Oh well!

[itsmeyousee]

I don't think Ianto lied in COE. But then again i also think Gwen was full of shit in that convo with Rhi. And the most telling thing that makes me say ianto didn't lie, was Rhi knew what Ianto would have said. And going by HOTD Dad was a tailor.

 

So i go with ianto tells only one side publicly , so dad was a tailor but something happened then he worked in a department store and i would say that the "whatever that happened" is why Ianto only tells one side of the story. And the difference is Rhi excepting all of her dad and Ianto not. But it's a Jones family thing, not a lying thing.

 

As for Ianto and him being from TW1, i don't feel the need to revisit Canary Wharf cause what happened with Lisa was enough of a nightmare. But more what did Ianto know that the others didn't ?

 

He knew why TW was founded, he knew who the enemy of TW was, he probably would have seen the Tardis ( i'm guessing most tried to peek at it , if they couldn't see the Doctor) but he knew about the Doctor. And i don't get the others have a clue except from what Jack has told them about TW or the history behind it. I wished we had seen that knowledged used more even if it was just an eyeroll or a snort at something one of the others had said, to show he did in fact know everything LOL. And have Jack knowledge that ianto knew far more than the others did about the "real TW" rather than Jack's TW.

[Dizzy76]

Switching tracks here, I am curious about what you guys think/feel about the idea of the dead man walking storyline being originally intended for Ianto.  Even though I know that they would have written it in a way that left me unsatisfied (based on what we got for Owen) or maybe even angry, I still kind of wish that they would have released some of the scenes they had already churned out for it.  Very curious about what direction they were planning to take it.

 

Ultimately, I think the storyline suited Owen's character much better than it would have Ianto's.  But how nice would it have been to see Ianto with an ongoing storyline for a few episodes?

[itsmeyousee]

I don't know much about extras and haven't read that many articles to be honest but i'm sure i have read somehwere that scene from storyline  was in a TW magazine. Basically Jack decked out the Hub in candles in a romantic gesture i guess to show Ianto that he still meant something to him despite the change.

 

And i agree that Owen was actually a better character to do it with but i'm not sure how much more they could have done in Season 2 without the whole back half of the Season being about Owen. It would have been better if they didn't kill off our team, then we could have had more interesting stories. Owen and his non breathing certainly would have come in handy when dealing with the 456 in COE.

[Dizzy76]

I want to throw another question out there (because I can't seem to turn my brain off right now):  Do any of you think that Ianto knew about Jack not staying dead before End of Days?

 

I think that Ianto being Ianto and the fact that he took care of Jack's clothes and seemed to be good at observing people/things around him, cottoned on that something was up with Jack.  There's just no way for me to buy that he didn't have any kind of clue that Jack was different.  Honestly, I don't really buy that Owen or Tosh didn't notice anything either.  Especially Owen who was the team's doctor.  There is no way that Jack didn't get hurt in the field without Owen wanting to treat him or check him over.

 

Web extra's actually have a convo between Jack and Ianto during Out of Time after Jack dies with John in Ianto's car while they die.  I might be reaching with this but I like it because I can use it to back up my "Ianto knew something" thoughts.

 

 

 

I don't know much about extras and haven't read that many articles to be honest but i'm sure i have read somehwere that scene from storyline  was in a TW magazine.

 

Yeah, the magazine article is the only thing I've really heard about as well.  I'm just curious though where they would have gone with it all after the hub candle scene.  I also wonder if Jack's determination to get the second glove was originally in the script because it was him trying to get back Ianto or if any of that changed when Owen took his place.

[Swansong]

I agree the zombie story was better for Owen, but only really in the sense that BG was a stronger actor than GDL and so was more likely to bring more nuance to a story line that ultimately i don't think was all that great and kind of deadended the character. In terms of the characters alone I don't necessarily agree it worked better with Owen than Ianto. Or at least I don't agree with RTD's reasoning that Owen had more to lose. It's true Owen couldn't go out shagging every night, but in terms of his role at Torchwood they would always need a Doctor and, as they do, Ianto could step up more as a field agent to cover the possible loss of Owen in that area.

 

But on a personal and professional level Ianto also had a lot, if not more, to lose. His identity was very much bound up in Jack and Torchwood and both those things would be called into question. He presumably coped with the loss of Lisa by relying on work and later his relationship with Jack, but what would be his coping mechanism if his life was suddenly upended again and he couldn't guarantee those things? It's possible Jack would stick around even if they could no longer have sex, but they hadn't exactly established by Reset and DMW that Jack had all that strong of an emotional attachment to Ianto. So how long would that last? We never really got a good sense of what Ianto's job was supposed to be at Torchwood, but I assumed Ianto survived at Torchwood, in part, because he was a jack of all trades. But, in theory, at least pretty much anyone with reasonable organisation skills could do his job and If they had to hire someone as an extra field agent would there really be any need to keep Ianto on?  I didn't really care for the zombie story even with Owen and I'm glad Ianto didn't get it because I imagine it would have meant killing him off in s2 (not that it mattered much in the end), but I definitely think there was a potentially decent story to mine with Ianto. Assuming the writers could think of Ianto as more than just Jack's appendage which seems unlikely unfortunately.

 

Did Ianto know about Jack? The way it's set up I assume no he didn't know. He seemed pretty shocked when Jack came back from the dead in EOD and clearly didn't expect him to return after his wrestle with Abaddon. Does it make sense he didn't know? Or that any of them didn't know or suspect? Not really. As shown Jack dies pretty frequently on missions, he clearly likes to hand wrestle weevils for sport and he's kind of cavalier about his safety. And Ianto is often hanging around the Hub very late into the night and deals with Jack's personal space and clothes so he must have noticed the times when there were copious amounts of blood and tears in his clothes etc. And in Fragments when he notices Jack is injured he says "you were bleeding" rather than "I thought you were bleeding" and then when Jack brushes it off he gives him a 'yeah, right' look which might suggest he knows something. Also it's not clear how long he was spying on Jack before he first approaches him pre his employment at TW3. Plus i have hard time imagining there weren't rumours or records about Jack at TW1. Office spaces tend to be very gossipy. So at the very least I think he suspected something odd about Jack.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Swansong

[Luckylyn]

I think Ianto had to suspect something about Jack.  I imagine someone like Jack would have been heard of by people in Torchwood 1, and I bet Ianto did his research on Jack before approaching him to work at Torchwood 3.

[Captanne]

Ianto was an archivist and it stands to reason he did something similar at T1.  He would surely have known about both the Doctor and Jack.  I think that's why he showed up with Lisa at Three in the first place.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Captanne

[Swansong]

Doesn't Fragments mention he was a junior archivist at TW1? 

[Dizzy76]

 

Assuming the writers could think of Ianto as more than just Jack's appendage which seems unlikely unfortunately.

And this is what I meant about ultimately being glad Ianto didn't get the storyline.  I don't trust that the writers would have handled writing it for him well.  I think there might have been a moment here or there that got it right (as there probably was a writer among the pack that had a little better handle of Ianto than the others) but overall, most of them couldn't see past Jack so the story would have been one note. 

 

I do disagree that Gareth wouldn't be able to give a nuanced performance.  Burn was a more seasoned actor and I totally think he took what they gave him and did more than most would have done.  But for what they gave Gareth, he did just the same - just in a different way (IMHO).

 

 

It's possible Jack would stick around even if they could no longer have sex, but they hadn't exactly established by Reset and DMW that Jack had all that strong of an emotional attachment to Ianto.

Based on that TW magazine article, I think this would have been explored.  The scene they outline would have been Jack making it clear where he was emotionally and that he was planning to stick around for Ianto.  I like that we got that bit of "might have been" even though we didn't actually get the storyline.  It is yet another puzzle piece that I use to try and sort out my feelings about Jack/Ianto and how I am choosing to view them after everything has been said and done.

 

 

As far as Ianto being surprised by Jack's death in End of Days, I don't think that negates him being curious or suspicious about what might be going on with Jack.  Jack didn't just pop back up after Abaddon but it took him a few days to revive.  Gwen "had faith" because Jack told her exactly what was what (and because of course only Gwen would have faith enough like that *eye roll*).  But if Ianto didn't know exactly how things worked or what the limits were to whatever Jack's abilities may be, why would he not be surprised after Jack literally laid there dead for days?

 

And I agree with Luckylyn and Captanne - Ianto had access to too much background info and a Torchwood past where Jack probably had a bit of a rep that he couldn't be completely in the dark about things (and yes, Captanne about the Doctor too).  Just like that moment in that IM conversation, I think there were times when Ianto wanted to bring it up to Jack but backed out because Jack would answer in a way that gave the "None of your business" vibe or just deflected all together.  Answering a question with a question.

 

IANTO: Random question - was he in the driver's seat when he died?

JACK: Yes. Why? Does it make a difference?

IANTO: No. No. Not at all. No. Thanks.

Of course you could read that as Ianto just wanting to know whether or not the drivers seat hadn't been tainted with dead guy.  I choose to play ignorant to that interpretation cause I like mine better.  :)

[Captanne]

I think it's highly more likely Ianto would have known about the Doctor (given Torchwood's mission*) than about Jack.  However, I think knowing about Jack would be in the Doctor's dossier.

 

*That's why I'm a big advocate of watching "Tooth and Claw" but here, since that is an episode of Doctor Who, we are not allowed to discuss it but have to go over to the Doctor Who forum instead.  

[Luckylyn]

I have this whole theory on how The Doctor is indirectly responsible for getting Ianto killed because he got Harriet Jones removed as Prime Minister in The Christmas Invasion.  If she had been Prime Minister she would have fought the 456 and used Torchwood as a resource.

 

I wish we could discuss the Doctor Who episodes that have impact on Torchwood here.  I might start a thread for that.

[Swansong]

 

I do disagree that Gareth wouldn't be able to give a nuanced performance.  Burn was a more seasoned actor and I totally think he took what they gave him and did more than most would have done.  But for what they gave Gareth, he did just the same - just in a different way (IMHO).

Oh I agree. I just think in terms of how they chose to handle the storyline with all the raging and what not I think that suited BG's acting style more than GDL. A lot of why I liked Ianto is because of GDL. 

 

 

As far as Ianto being surprised by Jack's death in End of Days, I don't think that negates him being curious or suspicious about what might be going on with Jack.  Jack didn't just pop back up after Abaddon but it took him a few days to revive.  Gwen "had faith" because Jack told her exactly what was what (and because of course only Gwen would have faith enough like that *eye roll*).  But if Ianto didn't know exactly how things worked or what the limits were to whatever Jack's abilities may be, why would he not be surprised after Jack literally laid there dead for days?

I just meant from  the show's point of view it's clear he's not supposed to know and I have no problem with the team not having "faith" Jack might come back again despite the show's intentions because they'd only apparently been privy to Jack's secret for a very short time. Even Gwen in the early days reacted in ways that suggested she wasn't confident his no dying policy might stick. Look at how she reacts when he's electrocuted in Cyberwoman and that's despite seeing him die and him explaining to her he couldn't die. Personally I have a hard time buying Ianto didn't outright know or at least have an inkling because of all the reasons stated. I think this is one of the many many things the show didn't really think through.

 

The thing I find weirder is they supposedly find out about Jack's superpower at the end of EOD then Jack runs off, but when he comes back no-one is shown even curious about it. Not Owen, the Doctor, not the team in terms of what it means that a guy who can't die is charged with sending them out to possibly die especially with how cavalier Jack is shown to be as a leader, not even Ianto who is starting a relationship with him and is apparently concerned about its impact on their relationship. It's good they were so accepting, but then again I'm not sure I buy no-one was the least curious or concerned about the implications.

 

Ianto would have known about the Doctor and should have known Jack's connection to the Doctor. And the Doctor was at Canary Wharf which Ianto should have known about since he was supposedly there. And in a way Ianto would have a connection or interest in the Doctor outside of Jack because of Canary Wharf.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Swansong

[itsmeyousee]

Watching EOD aside from the first jump when Jack comes back which they all do, you don't see another reaction from Ianto unlike Tosh and Owen. They get two reactions the first jump then another WTF/How shocked look at Jack. Ianto is too busy helping Jack with Gwen. But they do focus on Ianto mourning Jack, it's from Ianto that you get the sadness and real implications of what has happened of both of Jack's deaths. Plus Ianto's name is left out of the Jack/Gwen convo in EC, so i think you could say Ianto does know or he knows something but he doesn't go there.  I mean Ianto had his own big secret, so i can understand him not asking about it..

 

Ianto would have known about the Doctor but i doubt he would know about Jack being a companion at least until Jack left. Then i think Ianto would have put all the pieces together.

 

If anything i would think Ianto is the one who doesn't ask the questions. I was watching KKBB last night and they are all whingy in the cab about Jack and what they know and don't know except Ianto. Who just talks about it being more fun when Jack is around. Ianto is more interested in Jack as a person now/at that time , cause that's who he fancies LOL.

[Dizzy76]

I have no idea if Ianto knew that Jack was connected to the Doctor but Torchwood did have on file a few of transcribed conversations Jack had in bars saying that he was waiting for his friend, the doctor and talking about him fixing weird things that were happening.  Not only were Torchwood interested in Jack because he couldn't stay dead but because he was going around talking about the Doctor.  Now, no clue if Ianto would have had access to any of these files but...maybe?

[itsmeyousee]

But if Torchwood knew that the guy that Jack was referring to was the Doctor why could TW find the Doctor ?  Just ask Jack or follow Jack, i mean 100 years is a long time. That's why I don't think Ianto puts it's together until Jack buggers off. I'm sure all the others talked and Gwen would have mentioned "Jack's Doctor" and correct me if i'm wrong but shouldn't TW crew be able to spot the Tardis since they have their own perception filter. And i never get the impression that the others know anything about TW aside from what Jack tells them but Ianto does know the differences.

 

And i'm unsure if all the stuff about Jack is in the Cardiff archives anymore surely Jack would have gotten rid of  it once he was in charge cause he didn't want his Team knowing about his "not staying dead". So nothing for Ianto to find and read about.

[Swansong]

Going by the rest of their conversation they do seem to know he's been referring to the Doctor and he confirms it when he tells them The Doctor's not a threat, but I'm not sure how interested Torchwood really were in actually capturing the Doctor. I mean during the Pertwee era he's grounded on earth and working for UNIT for a good while, so pretty easy to find and get at if they wanted. Even when they capture Ten they behave more like he's a celebrity who's come to visit the facilities than a dangerous alien they need to put out of commission.

 

I assume Ianto only became really interested in Jack when he needed him for Lisa, but I imagine that rumours about Jack likely got around TW1 just because people at TW3 seemed to know about him at various point and as my mum likes to say what more than one person knows can't stay a secret for long. Even in COE in the 1960s flashback Jack assumes they want him at the drop because he can't die. And I assume if his secret isn't even all that secret amongst government officials then I can't see why it would be a secret throughout Torchwood.

[Luckylyn]

Jack never bothered to change his name, his appearance didn't change enough to pass as someone else, and he stuck close to the rift.  His immortality was not a well kept secret.  I imagine Ianto would have at least heard rumors especially since Jack had a big personality and was likely to make an impression. Plus, as an junior archivist Ianto had access to info.  I felt Fragments implied that Ianto did some research before approaching Jack.  Ianto seemed to be trying to entice Jack and wouldn't not know that flirting with Jack was a possible strategy unless he'd had some prior info on Jack.

[Dizzy76]

Yeah, I just can't buy that with the amount of people that new about Jack not staying dead, Ianto wouldn't have heard something.  I can get that through the years, the stories change and so Ianto wouldn't know exactly what was up with Jack.  Jack's secret only became secret once he took over after Alex killed everyone.  And yes, I am sure he tried to destroy all the files that TW3 had in the archives but that doesn't erase what everyone at TW1 knew or any files they had on him.  And before Jack got saddled with the leader gig, weren't the two Torchwoods working together in some capacity?  Yeah, there just isn't anything anyone could say that would make me think that Ianto was completely clueless.

 

As for Torchwood's interest in the Doctor, I'm not sure what to make of it all.  I mean we are told that he's the enemy and they seem to play at gathering info on him and wanting make sure he's not a threat but I'm not sure if the lack of follow-through is based on Torchwood being all talk at the end of the day, or a result of the common writing flaws that plagued a lot of things in the DW/TW universe.  They definitely did their share of tell without showing.

[itsmeyousee]

I think you can make an argument either way with Ianto did he or did he not know about Jack, mainly cause we don't get to see his reaction properly in EOD just the first shock that they all have including Gwen. But the second look that Owen and Tosh have after the shock and a bit of a WTF we don't see.

 

But why would Ianto research Jack beyond knowing he is in charge of TW3 and is a big flirt with everyone which would be common knowledge. Canary Wharf is destroyed there isn't anything left for Ianto to research with. He has to protect Lisa, which would mean machinery and drugs first. And we know he had a field kit from TW1 , it wouldn't be that hard to follow Jack around for a bit then approach him

 

And Jack took over way before ianto started work at TW1 , maybe Jack was talked about like Jack talked about Archie as the lone nutter up in Cardiff, who broke away and TW1 people thought he was a joke, who knows. I doubt anyone at TW1 cared what was happening in Cardiff or Scotland, they were London and number one. Think it would be more like I'm in Sydney the biggest city in Australia, what do i care about what's happening in Hobart ,Tasmania, the captial city of small island state down the bottom of Australia even if we both worked for Aussie farmers or something else.

[Captanne]

Yeah, but the whole mission of TW was to fend off aliens and the Doctor.  If one of your two other "leaders" was a former Companion?  And she would know that.

 

Moreover, I think, on just a personal level, his cockiness would annoy her to no end and she'd see him as a "challenging" potential rival in power.

 

I bet that woman would have kept a very close eye on him.  

[indeed]

I can imagine Yvonne walking around the halls muttering about something Jack did or the latest conversation they had on an almost daily basis!

(I can't imagine Yvonne letting Jack do whatever he wanted without any supervision--even if she considered Cardiff, the one place with an actual Rift through space and time that they knew about for over 100 years, insignificant and a mere nuisance at best. I'd read a Torchwood book about Yvonne and Jack butting heads during that time--with brief glimpses of TW1 Ianto as a bonus.)

Even if Ianto had known (Fragments leans that way--he takes everything Jack says and does in stride--well, except for that floor tumble ;), seeing it in action is entirely different. And just like Jack before his big talk with the Doctor, he wouldn't know how permanent it is--so a shot to the head could seem pretty final (and shocking!) from his perspective and certainly what went down with Abaddon. In this instance, I like how CC kept the debate open by giving just enough to possibly support the theory and left it up to the viewer to decide which scenario works best. I choose Ianto knew, Jack knew that Ianto knew, and Jack chose Gwen to go with him because he didn't know what would happen with Abaddon and out of the two of them he didn't want to risk Ianto. ;) Plus, Jack figured there was a good chance he'd look silly confronting Abaddon and he would rather Ianto not remember him that way if Abaddon was able to wipe him out. LOL

[Dizzy76]

 

Even if Ianto had known...seeing it in action is entirely different. And just like Jack before his big talk with the Doctor, he wouldn't know how permanent it is--so a shot to the head could seem pretty final (and shocking!) from his perspective and certainly what went down with Abaddon.

This right here!  I don't care how much I had known or speculated about Jack not being able to stay dead, Abaddon would have totally made me question if that was just it for Jack.  And because I don't think Ianto knew specifics, seeing Jack get shot in the head would have scared the crap out of me if I were him.  And let's remember, even after Ianto knew for sure and had seen Jack come back from things during the time of series 2 and the period between 2 and COE, he still was freaked and scared when Jack had a bomb that was about to go off in him.  I imagine that any death situation that Ianto hadn't seen before would make him question a bit.

[Captanne]

I genuinely believe that Ianto felt terrible for Jack every time Jack died.  Perhaps he feared Jack wouldn't awaken but I'm guessing it also broke his heart to see Jack suffer so much.

[indeed]

Yes, it's nice someone considered that Jack actually feels the death that's happening to him. Of course, he couldn't keep that bit of comfort and understanding for long.

[Dizzy76]

I agree with you both.

[itsmeyousee]

Indeed what was the book you were referring to ? I know there is a couple i haven't read and i can't remember any that had Ianto at TW1

[indeed]

No, sorry, book doesn't exist...yet. Maybe someday they'll get their butts in gear... "I'd" in this case meant "I would" read and not "I had" read. Sorry for the confusion! Contractions!!

[itsmeyousee]

That's ok Indeed, i would love to read a book like that. Especially a young Ianto at TW1 , happy and in love. In a way it makes me wish i knew what JB and his sisters thoughts were about their book. Cause i'm sure i read somewhere that she said they wanted to write a past story where Ianto was alive but the BBC said it had to be set after MD

[Dizzy76]

Really!?  That makes me sad now.  I would have been very interested in what they would have done with an alive Ianto.

[itsmeyousee]

A question popped into my head asking about Jack's past loves and chatting about Jack & Ianto and how Ianto seems to be the first person that knows all of Jack's secrets and still loves Jack and isn't going anywhere.

 

But do you think Ianto has a much better understanding of time ?

 

Like he would be on par with Jack or even the Doctor, no need for a "timey whimey" convo. He understands fully, the small amount of time he has with Jack, he seems to understand Jack's history and future and doesn't seem overwhelmed by any of it. It just normally when time comes up it gets explained but not with Ianto, if anything it seems like he would do the explaining .