S03.E19: The Price

[Joe Hellandback]

THE PRICE

The Good; Very much an 'in the bottle episode'. Do like Fred drinking the snowglobe.

The Bad; I think the Schlucks (or however you spell it) are deeply stupid, this doesn't really work for me

Best line: Cordy; "We have a pool?"

Jeez, how did they get away with that? The poor guy crumbling. Also Lilah's assertion that when a co-worker at WR&H pats you on the back you should check to feel for the knife.

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Clichés Inverting the Hollywood cliché;

In disguise; 8

DB get's his shirt off; 12

Cordy's tatt; 10

Cheap Angel; 9

Fang Gang in bondage: Cordy: 5 Angel: 11 Wes: 6 Gunn; 4 Lorne; 3 Fred; 2

Fang gang knocked out: Cordy: 11 Angel: 14 Wes: 5 Doyle; 1 Gunn; 1 Lorne; 3

Kills: Cordy: 5 vamps, 3 demons Angel; 39 vamps, 57 and 1/2 demons, 7 humans Doyle; 1 vamp Wes; 12 demons+3 vamps, 2 humans Kate; 3 vamps Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans. Gunn; 10 vamps+ 11 demons. Groo; 1 demon Fred; 1 vamp

Fang Gang go evil: Cordy: 2 Angel: 2 Gunn; 1 Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang: schluck possessed Fred Cordy: 2 Angel: 8 Fred; 1

Characters killed: the poor guy who get's dusted 46

Recurring characters killed; 8;

Total number of Angel Investigations: Wes makes his first moves towards returning back to the fold 6, Angel, Cordy, Gunn, Fred, Lorne and Groo

Angel Investigations shot: Angel: 11 Wes; 1

Packing heat; Wes; 6 Doyle; 1 Angel; 2 Gunn; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Cordy: 4 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo Angel: 5; Buffy, Darla and The Transcending Furies Wes; 2; Virginia and the bleached blonde Gunn; 1 Fred Fred; 1 Gunn Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky: Depending on how much you're into the Alien mythology you could interpret the Schlucks possessing Fred and the guy as metaphorical rape. CC describes Groo as 'sexy, well-built, go-all-night'

Captain Subtext; Groo starting to pick up on CC's feelings for Angel.

Know the face, different character; 4

Parking garages; 5,

Buffy characters on Angel; 16 Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony

Questions and observations; Drawing from Alien, Invasion of the Bodysnatchers and The Thing a great deal. Our first appearance of grown up Connor for good or ill. Love Lilah's tarantula, once asked Stephanie Romanov at a convention did she have a problem with that scene but she said no, they're 'furry like a kitten'? Groo's mother was called Pomegranate? 'Puppy-dog' is how CC describes the Groo and how she described Jesse in the first ep of Buffy. Gunn once again demonstrates his loathing of creepy-crawlies. 'Thaunmogenisis' is also the term used for the demon created when Buffy was resurrected. Love Lorne's hat. Note when Fred drinks from from the snowglobe she cuts her lip a little. Powerful scene between Gunn and Wes. First real signs of CC's greater power. Lorne uses the traditional Buffyverse line "Standing right here".

Marks out of 10; 5/10 not one of my favourites

[Spartan Girl]

On 11/1/2018 at 6:49 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Wes makes his first moves towards returning back to the fold

I wouldn't exactly call it that.  Maybe it would have been if he didn't lay on the victim so thick.  "Woe is me, I got my throat cut and all my friends abandoned me."  Not one word of remorse for what he did to Angel and Connor (and Lorne).  PSTD or not, he's an asshole.

[illdoc]

On 11/1/2018 at 5:49 AM, Joe Hellandback said:

Wes makes his first moves towards returning back to the fold

Not really. In fact, he makes a point of saying that he's helping AI only because it's Fred and that they shouldn't expect his help again.

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, illdoc said:

Not really. In fact, he makes a point of saying that he's helping AI only because it's Fred and that they shouldn't expect his help again.

Seriously. "Trying to rejoin the fold" would have at least been searching desperately through all his research to find an opening to the hell dimension to save Connor and redeem his mistakes. But does he do anything like that's? Nope. All he does is mope around in self pity because his hurt feelings were the only ones that mattered.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎02‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:53 PM, Spartan Girl said:

Seriously. "Trying to rejoin the fold" would have at least been searching desperately through all his research to find an opening to the hell dimension to save Connor and redeem his mistakes. But does he do anything like that's? Nope. All he does is mope around in self pity because his hurt feelings were the only ones that mattered.

You can't blame him but it's like CC in Gingerbread, she doesn't want to help but feels she has to. 

[MerelyAFan]

Something I realized during a rewatch was that that like the episodes title, Wesley was in a sense, extracting a price from Gunn for his help. Once he hears about Fred, I think Wes decides immediately to intervene, but he (who has been literally voiceless since the ending of Sleep Tight) does subtly get a payment from Gunn via the latter having to hear what he has to say first. The same pride that's been part his character both compels him to essentially get the last word in against the team, and the pain of being exiled from AI likely drives him to have some image of control over it hence the message of "I'm not welcome there; well none of you are welcome here." 

A lot of the dynamic he'll have with the others in Season 4 is essentially laid out here too. 

Spoiler

He's a colder man with no apologies to give to people he believes won't understand his motivations, but is willing to help them out in the major crisis via solutions they don't think of.  

[Joe Hellandback]

7 hours ago, MerelyAFan said:

Something I realized during a rewatch was that that like the episodes title, Wesley was in a sense, extracting a price from Gunn for his help. Once he hears about Fred, I think Wes decides immediately to intervene, but he (who has been literally voiceless since the ending of Sleep Tight) does subtly get a payment from Gunn via the latter having to hear what he has to say first. The same pride that's been part his character both compels him to essentially get the last word in against the team, and the pain of being exiled from AI likely drives him to have some image of control over it hence the message of "I'm not welcome there; well none of you are welcome here." 

A lot of the dynamic he'll have with the others in Season 4 is essentially laid out here too. 

  Hide contents

He's a colder man with no apologies to give to people he believes won't understand his motivations, but is willing to help them out in the major crisis via solutions they don't think of.  

One of my favourite aspects of the show is that

Spoiler

it's never a case of snap your fingers and suddenly everything is okay again, forgiveness and overcoming emotional trauma takes everyone time. 

[MerelyAFan]

2 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

One of my favourite aspects of the show is that

  Hide contents

it's never a case of snap your fingers and suddenly everything is okay again, forgiveness and overcoming emotional trauma takes everyone time. 

Spoiler

Its a contrast from a lot of shows (even its sister series Buffy) that reconciliation occurs without any admittance of guilt or expression of remorse from any party. Wesley certainly realizes his information was false, but even through it all believes his reasoning was correct given the stakes and the others made no attempt to understand his viewpoint before casting him out. They of course see him as a man who didn't trust his friends with the most critical information and took away one of their children without ever intending to come back; thus they had every reason to throw him out given the lack of loyalty he displayed. Angel probably knows he overreacted in trying to kill him, but given that he assumed his son was suffering torment in a hell dimension, he also likely thinks it was fairly justified. 

Its a fascinating take that on a show explicitly about redemption there is a slightly cynical aesop that we're not always going to get the apologies or repentance from others that we believe we deserve, but that one has to deal with it as best they can.  

[illdoc]

6 hours ago, MerelyAFan said:

Wesley certainly realizes his information was false, but even through it all believes his reasoning was correct given the stakes and the others made no attempt to understand his viewpoint before casting him out. 

You know, I wonder if Wesley really does know the info was false. What I mean is, he's told the prophecy was false, but he's not actually told why--that is, it was essentially forged by Sanjan. As far as he knows, he just screwed up the translation, like he did originally with the Shanshu prophecy. Or that he misread/mistranslated all his sources. That is, the prophecy was false, but that it's his fault that he didn't realize it. He does have a low self-esteem problem, after all. Since the document was forged, there was nothing anyone could do to prove it was false. Yes, Wes should get some blame for not sharing the prophecy with the gang (or even Giles, who certainly would believe Angel is capable of hurting his son, even if AI & most of the Scooby gang wouldn't believe it), but I think he also blames himself for somehow not seeing thru the deception.

[MerelyAFan]

2 hours ago, illdoc said:

You know, I wonder if Wesley really does know the info was false. What I mean is, he's told the prophecy was false, but he's not actually told why--that is, it was essentially forged by Sanjan. As far as he knows, he just screwed up the translation, like he did originally with the Shanshu prophecy. Or that he misread/mistranslated all his sources. That is, the prophecy was false, but that it's his fault that he didn't realize it. He does have a low self-esteem problem, after all. Since the document was forged, there was nothing anyone could do to prove it was false. Yes, Wes should get some blame for not sharing the prophecy with the gang (or even Giles, who certainly would believe Angel is capable of hurting his son, even if AI & most of the Scooby gang wouldn't believe it), but I think he also blames himself for somehow not seeing thru the deception.

The revealing thing about Wes is that if even told about Sahjhan's forgery, if push came to shove, I think he'd still sooner apologize for getting the information wrong than for not trusting his friends and taking Connor without intending to come back. The former's a mistake of research; something he should know better and I can easily imagine him believing he should have spotted some clue that would have tipped him off. The latter though is deeply tied into his own self image as the hard thinking leader with the burden of doing what's necessary for the greater good when no one else will. That statement he had back in Pylea is something he's gradually defined himself as more and more: "You try not to get anybody killed, you wind up getting everybody killed".

Spoiler

His own bitterness at their treatment of him aside, I think that's also why never apologizes for the events of Sleep Tight. To do that would be to acknowledge that maybe his unfettered mindset about doing the pragmatic, if dubious thing for utilitarian reasons is more flawed than he wants to admit.