War Stories

[MrMicrophone]

Okay, this is specifically a place to collect stories about the war between the Baratheons/Starks and the Targaryns. As they won't be so kind as to show Tommen getting a good ol' history lesson, I suppose we ought to collect what we know.

 

Good Unsullied, post on!

[Snowblack]

I'm pretty sure there are actually three wars we know about.  The first was the one between Robert and the Targaeryans.  The second one was the Iron Islands rebelling (against everyone?).  The third is the war of the would-be kings that is just ending (hopefully).

 

We know that in the first war:

• Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar Targaeryan and became the king.
• Jaime Lannister killed the Mad King (Aerys?) when he ordered King's Landing blown up by wildfire.
• Ned Stark rescued (sort of) his sister and came back home to Catlyn with baby Jon Snow.
• Tywin Lannister's troops sacked King's Landing.
• The Mountain raped and killed Oberyn's sister, who was married to a Targaeryan (is this Dany's mom?)
• Danaerys and her brother were spirited away and grew up in Pentos, but the rest of the family was killed.
• Maester Aemon, who is a Targaeryan, was already in the Night's Watch and couldn't do anything to help his family
• Stannis was under siege and Davos came to the rescue with his onions, which apparently make dog and cat more palatable.

 

We know that in the second war:

• Balon Greyjoy rebelled. 
• When the rebellion was squashed, Balon's sons were killed except for Theon, who was taken by Ned Stark.  Yara was left with her father.
• Jorah Mormont and the flaming sword guy with the brotherhood (Thoros, I think) were at the battle in Pyke.

[Anothermi]

 

I'm pretty sure there are actually three wars we know about.  The first was the one between Robert and the Targaeryans.  The second one was the Iron Islands rebelling (against everyone?).  The third is the war of the would-be kings that is just ending (hopefully).

 

We know that in the first war:

• Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar Targaeryan and became the king.
• Jaime Lannister killed the Mad King (Aerys?) when he ordered King's Landing blown up by wildfire.
• Ned Stark rescued (sort of) his sister and came back home to Catlyn with baby Jon Snow.
• Tywin Lannister's troops sacked King's Landing.
• The Mountain raped and killed Oberyn's sister, who was married to a Targaeryan (is this Dany's mom?)
• Danaerys and her brother were spirited away and grew up in Pentos, but the rest of the family was killed.
• Maester Aemon, who is a Targaeryan, was already in the Night's Watch and couldn't do anything to help his family
• Stannis was under siege and Davos came to the rescue with his onions, which apparently make dog and cat more palatable.

 

We know that in the second war:

• Balon Greyjoy rebelled. 
• When the rebellion was squashed, Balon's sons were killed except for Theon, who was taken by Ned Stark.  Yara was left with her father.
• Jorah Mormont and the flaming sword guy with the brotherhood (Thoros, I think) were at the battle in Pyke.

 

Those are all the "wars" that I can think of as well. 

 

It is interesting to note the differences in how the children of the losing side were treated between Robert's rebellion and the Iron Islander's Rebellion.  And I think it has to do with the lack of the presence of Tywin (although I can't be sure of this) in the Iron Island one.  In the 1st all the children were killed (or would have been had D & V not escaped somehow) while in the 2nd the youngest child, Theon (sounds like he wasn't fighting age), and his sister were not threatened with death.  Due to Good Old - we-don't-kill-children - Ned again, I'm sure - but it might also have been because there was not as much power to lose or gain with the defeat of Balon Greyjoy, so his remaining progeny weren't as important to eliminate.

 

Re: who Oberyn's sister was married to - Oberyn told Tyrion that Rhaegar ran off with another woman and left his sister (who ended up killed by the Mountain).  Rhaegar was Dany's brother so it would have been "the Targaryen children" of him & Oberyn's sister who were killed.

[MrMicrophone]

Bit more information:

Jaime remembers seeing the Lannister fleet burnt by the Greyjoys in the Greyjoy Rebellion.

 

Also, Tywin was apparently the Hand of the King for 20 years before Jaime killed the king (in the Baratheon/Stark Rebellion). So, um, any bets that's how Tywin managed to get into KL before Ned did? Falseflag reinforcements?

[Anothermi]

Bit more information:

Jaime remembers seeing the Lannister fleet burnt by the Greyjoys in the Greyjoy Rebellion.

 

Also, Tywin was apparently the Hand of the King for 20 years before Jaime killed the king (in the Baratheon/Stark Rebellion). So, um, any bets that's how Tywin managed to get into KL before Ned did? Falseflag reinforcements?

Good points Ms. Microphone (sorry, the Mr. always brings a male image to my mind.  I never realized just how visually oriented I was.)

 

For me the "good" part about the points are:

1) Tywin probably WAS involved in quelling the Greyjoy rebellion because he was personally affected.  So my spec about the non-murder of the Greyjoy progeny vis a vis Tywin's lack of involvement is probably in error and the 2nd spec about the lack of importance of said progeny is likely more on track.  AND...

2) Although I don't quite understand why Tywin was NOT in King's Landing when the KingSlaying took place (or before that) it would make sense that when he "arrived" back he would be let in without question. And the question should have been "Do you come to support the true (if mad) King Aeries Targaryen?"  He was The Hand! so no-one would consider that he might have changed allegiances between when he left (for what ever reason) and when he returned.

 

And further to the above thoughts... I harbour the suspicion That the Mad King was still alive when Tywin returned and that Tywin had some influence over Jamie's decision to Kill the King.  But, from what we have see so far I am now inclined to believe the King Slaying was Jaime's own decision at the time and the Tywin's influence (if you could cite it as such) was Jaime's awareness of how much his father hated Aeries (which I have no doubt he did).  That might have been the scale-tipping factor for the young Jaime Lannister - given all the other, perhaps more valid, reasons.

 

At any rate, thanks for the food for thought.

[Snowblack]

2) Although I don't quite understand why Tywin was NOT in King's Landing when the KingSlaying took place (or before that) it would make sense that when he "arrived" back he would be let in without question. And the question should have been "Do you come to support the true (if mad) King Aeries Targaryen?"  He was The Hand! so no-one would consider that he might have changed allegiances between when he left (for what ever reason) and when he returned.

 

Jaime talked about it during his Hot Tub Monologue.  Grand Maester Pycelle talked the king into letting Tywin's army into King's Landing.  So it seems that Pycelle has been loyal to the Lannisters for a very long time. 

 

I'm not clear on why Tywin wouldn't be at the king's side either.  Maybe he brought Lannister troops to fortify King's Landing for when Robert's troops arrived?  And Pycelle got the troops access to the city, where they did their raping and pillaging.

[MrMicrophone]

Snowblack,

Three alternatives:

Tywin was off fighting another battle.

OR

Tywin was just a bit "late to arrive" (hiring mercenaries must take some time, as does marching).

OR

Tywin was out swearing loyalty to Robert (having sat on the sidelines "pretending to help" until it was clear what was going on).

Edited April 30, 2014 by MrMicrophone

[Anothermi]

Snowblack,

Three alternatives:

Tywin was off fighting another battle.

OR

Tywin was just a bit "late to arrive" (hiring mercenaries must take some time, as does marching).

OR

Tywin was out swearing loyalty to Robert (having sat on the sidelines "pretending to help" until it was clear what was going on).

All plausible possibilities, but what is still unclear is Why was the Hand of the King not in King's Landing?  Ned had to move there to be the Hand and was expected to live there.  I'd gone with your second alternative for quite a while, but that was because I thought Tywin was just another Lord by then and not Hand of the King.  Maybe this is true?  Perhaps the Mad King had given Tywin his notice before the Rebellion broke out, or even after? There is that possibility. 

 

The fact that Pycelle had to talk the Mad King into letting Tywin and his army IN is interesting.  It may be that the Mad King was just that, and also Crazy and Capricious. (Going by Viserys - and a lot of other Targaryen Kings we've heard about - it's not much of a stretch) So it might have been necessary to convince him to make any kind of rational decision.  That's assuming Tywin was still the Hand, it would seem to be rational to let him into the city.  Using 20/20 hindsight, the Mad King's not wanting to let Tywin in seems an intelligent position. ;-)

Edited May 1, 2014 by Anothermi

[Snowblack]

Maybe the king gave Tywin leave to lead his troops against Robert?  It could have been similar to what happened in the war of the kings, where Tywin was technically Hand of the King, but he had someone act in his stead while he was leading his army. 

 

I also think there's an important distinction between allowing Tywin into the city and letting thousands of Lannister troops into the city.  I suspect Tywin could come and go freely, but the king needed persuasion to allow troops to pass through the gates.

[arry the orphan]

Additional War Stories:

 

1) Jaime and Jory (Neds captain of the guard) fought together against the Greyjoys. That was really a very foreshadowing conversation. They talked about Thoros and his flaming sword, and that Theon is a "shark and not a good lad" and of course that Jory almost lost an eye at the hands of a Greyjoy (Jaime later stabs him through the eye)

 

2) Tyrion and Theon talk about the Iron Islanders rebellion as well. "Nothing pretty about seeing sailors burn" (Foreshadowing the wildfire??). Tyrion mocked Theon for turning "lackey". Its quite possible that Ned took Theon as his hostage, becaue he remembered what happened to the Targaryen children in the last war.

 

3) In another thread someone pointed out that Robert told Barristan that his first kill was a Tarly boy (a relative of Sam)

 

4) Bran and Jojen also talk about the war. Jojen's dad fought with Ned.

 

5) The Tullys looked down on the Freys for showing up only after the battle was won. (Frey/Bolton talked about this and Catelyn/Robb)

Edited May 1, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Snowblack]

2) Tyrion and Theon talk about the Iron Islanders rebellion as well. "Nothing pretty about seeing sailors burn" (Foreshadowing the wildfire??). Tyrion mocked Theon for turning "lackey". Its quite possible that Ned took Theon as his hostage, becaue he remembered what happened to the Targaryen children in the last war.

 

Great additions, Arry.  This makes me think about the consequences of killing or sparing the children of vanquished foes.  Just look at what the surviving children have done.  Ned saved Theon, and Theon decimated what remained of Ned's family and his castle (though indirectly) in return.  The surviving Targaeryen child is gathering her forces to return to Westeros with a vengeance.  After seeing her idea of "justice," the consequences for many noble families of Westeros could be horrific.  It appears that doing the morally reprehensible thing is rewarded in Westeros.  On the other hand, how Oberyn gets revenge for the deaths of the other Targaeryan children remains to be seen.

[MrMicrophone]

Robert fought that Tarly boy at the Battle for Summerhall.

With a warhammer. (Doesn't he seem to be the only one using that weapon? Ned and Jaime like swords).

(Sidenote: Tarlies were loyalists?)

[arry the orphan]

I just checked the Character guide. The Tarlys (Tarlies?) are sworn to the Tyrells. So I assume Mace Tyrell was a loyalist (Olenna said in the last episode that she was supposed to marry a Targaryen, but decided to marry a Tyrell instead). I think this also explains why the Tyrells played no role in the first season. They fought against Robert (and were probably not welcome at his court).

 

So, Roberts side were the Baratheons, Starks and Tullys and the loyalists were Targaryen, Martells, and Tyrells. Tywin Lannister was Hand of the King and started as loyalist, but betrayed the Mad King and sacked KL. He got his daughter married to the new king for that. Do we know on which side the Greyjoys fought, or were they raiding and pillaging both sides?

Edited May 2, 2014 by arry the orphan

[MrMicrophone]

arry,

We can assume that Arryn was on Robert's side. No word on the Greyjoys -- they may have sat it out (ha. that seems credible!)

[MrMicrophone]

arry,

Jaime and Jory (Neds captain of the guard) fought together against the Greyjoys. 

--In the battle of Pyke.

 

Maester Luwin says that the Greyjoys are famed for failed rebellions. Isn't that interesting?

Both for the supposition that they do this regularly, and that others might be rightly famed

for successful ones.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

1) Jaime and Jory (Neds captain of the guard) fought together against the Greyjoys. That was really a very foreshadowing conversation. They talked about Thoros and his flaming sword, and that Theon is a "shark and not a good lad" and of course that Jory almost lost an eye at the hands of a Greyjoy (Jaime later stabs him through the eye)

 

:O ! seriously! Jory told Jaime he almost lost an eyewhen fighting the Greyjoys, and then Jaime later stabbed him through the eye?? I have watched the first season 6 or 7 times and never caught that detail. This show !! LOL.

[abelard]

Actually, Jory said that Theon was "a good lad."  Jaime said the "shark on a mountaintop" line, and Jory said "He's a good lad," and Jaime said nothing in reply (iirc).

 

Have we identified the families that go with the Seven Kingdoms?  Are all of these Kingdoms or are some of them just regions?

 

1. The North = Starks

2. The Vale = Arryns

3. Casterly Rock (is it a kingdom?) = Lannisters

4. Highgarden (is it a kingdom?) = Tyrells

5. Dorne = Martells

6. Iron Islands = Greyjoys

7. Whatever the Baratheon seat is -- Dragonstone? = Baratheons

oh wait - but the Riverlands!

8. Riverlands = Tullys

 

Okay I'm over by one.  One of those is not a Kingdom.  But the top 7 families sure do seem to be Lannisters, Tyrells, Martells, Baratheons, Starks, Arryns, Tullys.  So maybe the Iron Islands was not a Kingdom when Aegon came?  What was "the 8" as in Robert's gross "Making the 8"?

 

Also, surely wherever Harrenhal is was a Kingdom when Aegon took it by force.  But maybe the seat of that Kingdom just moved over, like from Harrenhal to Dragonstone? (I wish I understood the map better and how different regions/castles relate.)

 

And then there are important Houses that are not Kingdoms:

 

-Sapphire Isles (Tarth) -- is Tarth the name of the House/family or the name of the place?, sworn to Tyrells (right?)

-something Hall - Tarlys, sworn to Tyrells

-Dreadfort - Boltons, formerly sworn to Starks, now sworn to Lannisters

-The Twins - Freys, formerly sworn to Starks, now sworn to Lannisters

 

others?

[arry the orphan]

A lot of these question can be answered by reading the Index and Character guide.

for example Casterly Rock and Highgarden are the seats of Houses Lannister and Tyrell, just as Winterfell was seat of House Stark.

I tried to get as much info out of the Index.

 

1) The North - former House Stark (Winterfell), now disputed between House Bolton (Dreadfort) and House Greyjoy (Pyke)

2) The Iron Islands - House Greyjoy (Pyke)

3) The Riverlands - former House Tully (Riverrun), now House Frey (The Twins, also claims Riverrun)

4) The Vale - House Arryn (The Eyrie)

5) The Westlands - House Lannister (Casterly Rock)

6) Dorne - House Martell (Seat unkown)

7) The Reach - House Tyrell (Highgarden)

 

Now things get complicated when trying to figure out House Baratheon. I think they got all Targaryen lands after Roberts rebellion (Dragonstone and Kings Landing among them). Dragonstone is the seat of Stannis now. But its obviously just a small island (produces no wheat, barley, beef or pork). The Baratheon lands was probably one of the Seven Kingdoms and then taken over by the Targaryens. Their seat was Kings Landing and the Iron Throne. Robb sent Catelyn down to the Stormlands in order to negotiate with Renly Baratheon (beginning of second season). Tarth is an island and Brienne was sworn to Renly. So as there were three Baratheon brothers I assume Tarth was sworn to the Stormlands (Renly), Renly was sworn to Dragonstone (Stannis) and Stannis was sworn to Kings Landing (Robert). Or Renlys lands and Stannis' lands were equally sworn to Kings Landing, like the other seven kingsdoms listed above..........I don't get that part.

So my guess is:

 

8) The Stormlands - House Baratheon (Dragonstone and Kings Landing (officially, inofficially House Lannister)), former Targaryen and before that Baratheons again.

 

We know that seven of those eight lands were kingdoms, and that Aegon Targaryen conquered only six kingdoms (not Dorne).

Edited May 13, 2014 by arry the orphan

[abelard]

Thanks, arry.  I never heard of those regions/kingdoms before, The Westlands and The Reach.  I do wonder then wth is going on with the Baratheons.  Could Robert have been technically Lord of something smaller than a kingdom, more of a Banner Lord than a Lord Lord, when he rebelled?  If so, that's a lot of upward mobility right there, from Vassal to King in one rebellion.  And/or, could the Baratheon "kingdom" have been King's Landing, as you spec, and maybe that was part of Robert's claim -- that his family's kingdom was ganked by the Targeryens hundreds of years before so he was just getting back what was "his"?  Maybe the Baratheons occupied a kind of in-between space, they lost their kingdom but retained their standing and titles, holding on to certain castle/fortresses and having the same equal social status as Starks, Lannisters etc., but having no "kingdom" of their own since that was taken over by the Targs?

[arry the orphan]

Thats what I assume. The Baratheon kingdom was conquered by the Targaryens. And with the help of the dragons Aegon subdued the other kingdoms as well. He allowed them to continue to rule their lands as long as they swear fealty to him (and no longer call themselves kings). The Baratheons were serving the Targaryens like the Boltons were serving the Starks and the Freys were serving the Tullys. So when Rhaegar took Roberts girl (Neds sister) he rebelled against the Targaryens and became the new king.

Edited May 13, 2014 by arry the orphan

[RadiantAerynSun]

I think Storm's End must be the seat of the Baratheons as Stannis was bent out of shape that Renly got Storm's End and he got Dragonstone, when it was Storm's End he defended during the war, IIRC. The place where they got starved out by the Tyrells, I think it was.

 

I think the Westlands got name dropped the other week when Tywin asked Cersei how much gold she thought was mined in the west (westlands? westerlands? wetlands? lolol) in the last year.

And I think the Reach was mentioned when they were discussing crops being brought to King's Landing by the Tyrells.

[arry the orphan]

You are right, Aeryn (sound like a Targaryen name). Storm's End as seat of House Baratheon in the Stormlands make sense.

Edited May 13, 2014 by arry the orphan

[MrMicrophone]

I believe someone said that the Baratheons were married to the Targareans. So, they might have been "direct vassals" to the Targ King (rather than through another Kingdom). And the Baratheons might have picked up the Targ lands as their own (so Dragonstone is the Targ fortress...)

[abelard]

Yeah okay, so Baratheons were maybe vassals directly to the Targs, like all the other Lords of (former) Kingdoms were, but those other Lords still had dominion over their original lands, and the Baratheons were maybe reduced in their landholdings.  Storm's End, the new seat of the Baratheons after they lost (what became) KL.  Dragonstone, the seat of the Targs outside of KL.  When Robert won, he kept/took all three: KL, Storm's End (which Stannis fought so hard to keep), and Dragonstone, as the Baratheon fiefdom or whatever.  But Baratheons maybe viewed much of that as historically "theirs" anyway.  If it's true that southern part was all Baratheon territory once, then Baratheons were always the most obvious threat to the Targ dynasty.

 

Interesting that Stannis defended Storm's End against the Tyrells!  The Tyrells seem so mellow and/or stupid, except for the women.  But I guess Loras didn't get to be a great warrior by accident.  They must have a martial tradition in there somewhere.  Plus a big enough army that Tywin would have wanted it badly to fight with him at Blackwater.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Interesting that Stannis defended Storm's End against the Tyrells!  The Tyrells seem so mellow and/or stupid, except for the women.  But I guess Loras didn't get to be a great warrior by accident.

 

Well, not sure how much of a battle it was, as Olenna said Mace laid siege to it from the banquet table or some such... I assumed they mostly sat outside the walls and looked menacing and kept all food shipments from arriving at Storm's End rather than ACTUALLY fighting. Not sure who Loras can credit for his skillz! COuld be that the Tyrell bannermen are better fighters/thinkers than most of the actual Tyrell family men.

 

 

You are right, Aeryn (sound like a Targaryen name).

 

Does doesn't it! Have been called Aerys by accident before, LOL but it's actually a Farscape reference.

[abelard]

Well, not sure how much of a battle it was, as Olenna said Mace laid siege to it from the banquet table or some such... I assumed they mostly sat outside the walls and looked menacing and kept all food shipments from arriving at Storm's End rather than ACTUALLY fighting. Not sure who Loras can credit for his skillz! COuld be that the Tyrell bannermen are better fighters/thinkers than most of the actual Tyrell family men.

 

Oh I totally have to listen for Olenna recounting that story in my next big rewatch, thanks!  So, yeah, it wasn't a siege so much as a blockade, which Stannis and his men would still have had to suffer through just as miserably as an actual prolonged attack or series of attacks (thank goodness for Ser Onion Knight Davos).  

[Anothermi]

I spend some time deciphering the Big Boring Tome pages that were shown in the episode when Ned twigged to the Baratheon=Black of Hair/Lannister= not so much.  I posted some of what I found (not a transcript) on the TWoP board after the end of Season 1. What I found might be helpful to this conversation: 

 

#1836 anothermi
Posted Jul 7, 2011 @ 12:19 AM
< snipped irrelevant portions of post>

I previously spent some time attempting to read the pages of the Big Boring Tome of the Genetics of Houses of Westeros from the episode where Ned figures out who Joffrey really is. I've actually forgotten what prompted me to painstakingly squint at the ornate handwriting in freeze frame, but whatever. One thing puzzled me after I'd finished with the exercise. Each "Entry" was named and then ..."born to" (father's name & mother's name - along with who fathered her!) and the last bit appeared to be the birth date of the "Entry" phrased as follows:

 

...in the (#)th year after Aegon's landing at (location).

I looked at all three Houses that they showed - Targaryen, Umber & Baratheon. I spent more time making out the Baratheon page because that was what was of interest at the time. All the Baratheon entries had the (location) listed as Storm's End. Aegon, I remembered, was the 1st Targaryen who conquered Westeros with Dragon power, so I assumed that he initially landed at Storm's End (it sounds sufficiently coastal). As this was a momentous occasion, dates in Westeros could have been decreed to be calculated from that time (a la A.D & B.C. for the calendar I'm used to). But when I looked at the other two houses they had a different location listed.

The Targaryen's birth date was listed from Aegon's landing at King's Landing. The Umber's birth date was Aegon's landing at the Last Hearth (as best as I could make it out).

So, you're probably wondering what this has to do with anything by now. The link is the fact that the entries are dated by when Aegon "landed" at each of the Houses' stronghold/Keep/what have you, and that implies that Westeros wasn't conquered in one fell swoop as abelard369 suggests (and I thought that initially as well), but bit by bit. With dragons burning down the towns and cities of sceptic holdouts. (IMHO) To me that strengthens the argument that there used to be many Kings. Add that to the point Pallas made about the place being referred to as The Seven Kingdoms and I think the argument is practically made. But the one other thing I read in that fascinating book was that one of the Baratheon wives was listed as ..."daughter of Arealic the Arrogant, last of the Stormkings". I took that as the last king (of that area) before Ageon "landed" AKA took over. Heh, I guess with dragons as transport he really did "land" as in touched down, as opposed to just arrived.

Since Ageon "landed" at a different location for each House, I doubt Arealic the Arrogant was King of them all, just Storm's End perhaps? - Robert's home turf.

As an interesting side note, the entries gave physical descriptions of boys... but not girls.

 

I also noted, in passing, that one Baratheon was married to a Targaryen (clearly a spare sister). Later another poster confirmed this for others. We now know Rhaegar married outside of the Targaryen line to a Martell, but that might have been due more to the fact that he had no eligible sisters at the time? (When Robert's Rebellion happened Dany was just a baby or not even born yet.) I could see "extra" Targaryens females being strategicly married off, just like daughters of other Westeros Houses.

 

ETA:

Abelard wrote:

So, yeah, it wasn't a siege so much as a blockade

Hmm.  I thought a siege WAS a blockade.  It's purpose was to starve the inhabitants into submission as full out battle was not a viable option for the particular location. 




 

Edited May 14, 2014 by Anothermi

[arry the orphan]

 

I thought a siege WAS a blockade.

 

I think so, but a blockade doesn't have to be a siege. I am not sure, but I would say that a blockade is just about stopping goods and people entering/leaving the castle. While a siege has the goal of conquering the place. Also I think Davos brought the food supplies via ships. So its possible that the Tyrells set up a blockade of all roads and a seaside blockade of the harbour. Davos must have figured out a way to bring food into the castle without the Tyrell ships noticing. They probably never attacked the castle directly.

[abelard]

As far as I know, siege means there is a "laying siege," i.e., a prolonged attack on a fortress with the goal of killing or subduing all combatants.  See: Helm's Deep in the LOTR film The Two Towers.  That's a siege.  A blockade is a stoppage of supplies, which may also starve an army into surrendering.  You can do both, a double whammy.  But the Tyrells only blockading, and not besieging, Storm's End means they were doing the more passive, longer-term, wait-it-out strategy.  

[MrMicrophone]

Catelyn mentions the Late Lord Frey arriving late to The Trident. I'm unclear which war this battle is tied to (if any?)