All Episodes Talk: Grunt

[readster]

On 7/22/2018 at 6:03 PM, andromeda331 said:

Yeah, that makes no sense. If Mark hated the film too then why was he so happy and so hurt by everyone's reaction? That only makes sense if he liked the film. I'm not sure why he thought his dad would like it. The film was badly edited and made no sense. If he wasn't sure what his dad wanted he could have asked.  He wanted something about the hot rod. That's not what Mark did. Why would Tim be expecting that? He's seen Marks other films and the one he did for Brad. None were like this one. Tim or Jill could have explained to Mark that when your working for someone else you have to produce what they want. Not what you want. That works for your films. When you have a client your job is do their vision. It would have been a good learning experience. There is a different from filming your own stories and filming other peoples. Directors have to deal with that all the time. It gives Mark some experience in that and if he's going to be a film director that's where he's going to have to do that to get paid. Especially in the early years. 

I know and Mark was a lot better with filming Brad for his college video. He was giving Brad pointers, but in the end, Brad was more in charge of what to be filmed. I thought Mark's film making was a great move for the series. However, he was all over the place. From filming a really bad piece with the hot rod to filming pieces for his film class. It was like Mark never learned anything in all his pieces. I also didn't like Jill's reaction to Tim trying to get his first car and then restoring it and even though she felt bad later. I mean, all she had to do was say: "Tim, you have worked on 2 cars in the last 8 years." "Can't you take a break? I mean, Brad is going to college, Randy and Mark have no interest in restoring a car." "Can't we wait a while and then do one again?" Instead it turns into a complete mess and really they couldn't call the Junk Yard to keep the car from being smashed?

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, readster said:

I know and Mark was a lot better with filming Brad for his college video. He was giving Brad pointers, but in the end, Brad was more in charge of what to be filmed. I thought Mark's film making was a great move for the series. However, he was all over the place. From filming a really bad piece with the hot rod to filming pieces for his film class. It was like Mark never learned anything in all his pieces. I also didn't like Jill's reaction to Tim trying to get his first car and then restoring it and even though she felt bad later. I mean, all she had to do was say: "Tim, you have worked on 2 cars in the last 8 years." "Can't you take a break? I mean, Brad is going to college, Randy and Mark have no interest in restoring a car." "Can't we wait a while and then do one again?" Instead it turns into a complete mess and really they couldn't call the Junk Yard to keep the car from being smashed?

It really was. Mark getting interested in filming was a great idea and a lot of fun. But it seems like his film making class and what he's learn is as random. My guess is they didn't really research film making and where someone knew to it would start or what he'd learn in a film class.  I didn't like Jill's reaction to Tim's first car either. She's the one always digging up memories and wanting things from her childhood. The clock and hunting down her old piano. But she just completely dismissed Tim wanting his first car. Something from his past. You'd think she'd listen and understand. Maybe point out that he's still working on a car and they do have three kids to put through college.  I don't know why Tim didn't call immediately when she changed her mind to make sure it didn't get crushed. It was hard to see it get crushed.  I did like Jill deciding to hunt down another one and trade her car for it. That was really nice. I also really liked Tool Time doing an Adopt a Car program. That was a really good idea. There are so many cars out there that really could be fixed up.  

[readster]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really was. Mark getting interested in filming was a great idea and a lot of fun. But it seems like his film making class and what he's learn is as random. My guess is they didn't really research film making and where someone knew to it would start or what he'd learn in a film class.  I didn't like Jill's reaction to Tim's first car either. She's the one always digging up memories and wanting things from her childhood. The clock and hunting down her old piano. But she just completely dismissed Tim wanting his first car. Something from his past. You'd think she'd listen and understand. Maybe point out that he's still working on a car and they do have three kids to put through college.  I don't know why Tim didn't call immediately when she changed her mind to make sure it didn't get crushed. It was hard to see it get crushed.  I did like Jill deciding to hunt down another one and trade her car for it. That was really nice. I also really liked Tool Time doing an Adopt a Car program. That was a really good idea. There are so many cars out there that really could be fixed up.  

Very true and there are people today who do work on cars as a hobby. Usually these cars have sentimental value to the person. That's what really bothered me with Jill saying how she didn't need Tim to get his old car back until she realized it was like the clock and piano. Like how with Al his tricking of the station wagon was because it was his father's car. Same with how the Studa Baker was Wilson's father's car. There was meaning behind them. That was something I would have liked to see more with Al outside the few times Al worked on the hot rod. He rarely did it at the Taylors. It wasn't like Al didn't work on other projects or wasn't invited to the house before and during when Illene was around. Yes, you can have the segments on Tool Time, but why wasn't Al working on the car more with Tim over the years? I also think the show missed opportunities with Jill's father and seeing more of the grandfather side to him. I'm not talking with the boys, but during the Christmas episode where he is holding the twins was really nice. You saw this real twinkle in his eye as he watched his war movie and the girls just watching along with him. It was so nice. I think the writers finally got a clue on using the twins more on Home Improvement, but of course were: "They are babies and it's hard to do it." Compared to the final season when the girls were older and in school. 

  Kind of like how on Girls Meets World where they said they had over 15 years to look back on stories they didn't do with the original cast, but could now and use the actors in fitting roles since they were all alive and still acting. Home Improvement has been gone 20 years and while a reunion would be awesome, some things have set sail. 

[andromeda331]

17 hours ago, readster said:

Very true and there are people today who do work on cars as a hobby. Usually these cars have sentimental value to the person. That's what really bothered me with Jill saying how she didn't need Tim to get his old car back until she realized it was like the clock and piano. Like how with Al his tricking of the station wagon was because it was his father's car. Same with how the Studa Baker was Wilson's father's car. There was meaning behind them. That was something I would have liked to see more with Al outside the few times Al worked on the hot rod. He rarely did it at the Taylors. It wasn't like Al didn't work on other projects or wasn't invited to the house before and during when Illene was around. Yes, you can have the segments on Tool Time, but why wasn't Al working on the car more with Tim over the years?  

It would have been really great to see Al outside Tool Time and the Taylors more. Maybe working on his car or something. Or making working on another game or something. Out in the garage working on the hot rod.  As the years went on they were friends it would make sense they'd hang out together.  I do love how sentimental so many characters were to their first cars. My dad's a car guy and always talking about the various cars he had. His father was mechanic and they spent endless hours working in the garage on different cars. Experimenting with different engines. My mom had a really cool Camero she saved up to buy. She always regretted selling it. She ended up searching for a similar one years later when her kids were older. I'm just so used to seeing people remembering their first cars it felt so natural to listen to Tim talking about his first car, Wilson about his father's car, and Al. 

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I also think the show missed opportunities with Jill's father and seeing more of the grandfather side to him. I'm not talking with the boys, but during the Christmas episode where he is holding the twins was really nice. You saw this real twinkle in his eye as he watched his war movie and the girls just watching along with him. It was so nice. I think the writers finally got a clue on using the twins more on Home Improvement, but of course were: "They are babies and it's hard to do it." Compared to the final season when the girls were older and in school. 

 

  I loved that scene with the Colonel holding the twins and showing them Patton. It was just such a really great scene and really cute. The thing was when you think about it makes a lot of sense. He had daughters. He probably did the same thing when they were babies. Holding them and introducing them to Patton. I love how much he loved Patton. My grandfather was the same way. He served under Patton and loved and had so much respect for him. He's unit had been under someone else who wasn't getting supplies and food to the unit. Patton took it over and got them supplies, food and even got them showers for the first time in months. They missed a lot of opportunities to see him interacting with his grandsons.   

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  Kind of like how on Girls Meets World where they said they had over 15 years to look back on stories they didn't do with the original cast, but could now and use the actors in fitting roles since they were all alive and still acting. Home Improvement has been gone 20 years and while a reunion would be awesome, some things have set sail. 

 

It would be fun to see what their up too. What did Tim end up doing in Indiana? Did he start a garage like he was considering in the finale? Or did he do something else? Did they remain in Indiana or return to Detroit at some point. Did Randy become a journalist? Did Brad become a soccer star or Mark a filmmaker? Or did they find different jobs and careers? Did Randy and Lauren stay together or break up? How many kids did Al and Trudy have and do they all have "Al" somewhere in their name? Another thing I've been wondering is how the troubles Detroit had effected them. 

[andromeda331]

The finale aired and its not a bad one as finals go. Although I don't know why Trudy and Al would get married in the Taylors backyard. Why not a place that was important to them or Al's back yard. But it was great seeing Wilson and Tim take down the fence. I wish we had gotten to see Morgan get fired. It would have been so worth it. I love the last episode of Tool Time it was really great to see K&B Construction, the woman with the saw, Sparky, the plumber. It was really great to see them all and great song to chose. I still have mixed feelings about them moving to Indiana, I really liked Jill talking about how much she loved having roots. They all loved where they lived I wish they had stayed and still neighbors with Wilson who's married to Judith, maybe Tool Time going national, Brad and Jill graduating and Jill starting out as a therapist.  I liked Trudy and Al's wedding and the betting. I loved Tim and Al hugging at their last episode and hugging Heidi. I wanted them to remain working together. 

[readster]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

The finale aired and its not a bad one as finals go. Although I don't know why Trudy and Al would get married in the Taylors backyard. Why not a place that was important to them or Al's back yard. But it was great seeing Wilson and Tim take down the fence. I wish we had gotten to see Morgan get fired. It would have been so worth it. I love the last episode of Tool Time it was really great to see K&B Construction, the woman with the saw, Sparky, the plumber. It was really great to see them all and great song to chose. I still have mixed feelings about them moving to Indiana, I really liked Jill talking about how much she loved having roots. They all loved where they lived I wish they had stayed and still neighbors with Wilson who's married to Judith, maybe Tool Time going national, Brad and Jill graduating and Jill starting out as a therapist.  I liked Trudy and Al's wedding and the betting. I loved Tim and Al hugging at their last episode and hugging Heidi. I wanted them to remain working together. 

Yeah, I mean considering how late they found out that the show was ending and some rushing on things like with Morgan and Jill's new job. It was a very nice finale, but not perfect. The best finale in the last twenty years has honestly been Cheers and while it isn't perfect, it has such a great smooth move to the end and even the spin off with Frasier. I felt they really had to cheat with things to make it work with the Taylors leaving everything behind (except for the house). The pieces with Jill's career almost ended before they began with Scott and Heidi. Bud completely regressing to his first appearance attitude (and regressing farther). Randy completely gone and the weird hiring of Morgan and Binford falling from grace. Having everyone together, Tim deciding it was "Jill's turn", which many husbands do later in life when they have found success in their careers. Al finally moving past his mother (even if she had to die) and Mark realizing it was time to start enjoying teen age life more. There were some nice pieces and a decent wrap up. 

[andromeda331]

22 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, I mean considering how late they found out that the show was ending and some rushing on things like with Morgan and Jill's new job. It was a very nice finale, but not perfect. The best finale in the last twenty years has honestly been Cheers and while it isn't perfect, it has such a great smooth move to the end and even the spin off with Frasier. I felt they really had to cheat with things to make it work with the Taylors leaving everything behind (except for the house). The pieces with Jill's career almost ended before they began with Scott and Heidi. Bud completely regressing to his first appearance attitude (and regressing farther). Randy completely gone and the weird hiring of Morgan and Binford falling from grace. Having everyone together, Tim deciding it was "Jill's turn", which many husbands do later in life when they have found success in their careers. Al finally moving past his mother (even if she had to die) and Mark realizing it was time to start enjoying teen age life more. There were some nice pieces and a decent wrap up. 

Frasier's was one of my favorite endings except for him leaving I really wish he had stayed in Seattle. It would have been perfect since in the first episode when Frasier explains why he moved away. His career had stalled and he was estranged from his family. And now at the end his career had rebounded with the show and he had a better career offer and had fixed his relationship with his dad and his brother's. Except for the move it was perfect. Some parts of the Home Improvement ending didn't make sense but it was good for how quickly they had to throw it together. I don't mind that Al's mother died but I think it would have been really great to see him starting a new life and moving beyond his mother without her deny. It would have been great if Randy had come back.

Now that the first season is airing the one where Jill wants to go to dinner and Tim couldn't stop watching the football game. Why does she keep choosing game days to go out to dinner? Why didn't they go out to dinner on a Friday or Saturday night when there weren't any games? I checked Lions played Sundays that year except for a game or two on Thursdays. It was hilarious though watching Tim and the other guy grabbing the waiter for information on the game. The other guy telling his wife had to go watch the game and race into the kitchen to watch the game. He should have ended up becoming Tim's new best friend. Jill and his wife could have become friends over their husbands obsession with sports.

[readster]

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Now that the first season is airing the one where Jill wants to go to dinner and Tim couldn't stop watching the football game. Why does she keep choosing game days to go out to dinner? Why didn't they go out to dinner on a Friday or Saturday night when there weren't any games? I checked Lions played Sundays that year except for a game or two on Thursdays. It was hilarious though watching Tim and the other guy grabbing the waiter for information on the game. The other guy telling his wife had to go watch the game and race into the kitchen to watch the game. He should have ended up becoming Tim's new best friend. Jill and his wife could have become friends over their husbands obsession with sports.

I know there were some fun moments. However, it also paved a constant problem with Jill. She planned things when she knew there were major sporting events or people over. I remember when in the second season premiere when they all went to Big Mike's after the show. They were having a lot of fun and it was a Friday night. I get that Jill wanted to surprise Tim and that she thought she was sending enough signals to Tim. However, she knew the K & B were coming over and they usually hang out after the show. It was like a: "Think about that for a moment." Goes back to getting the rooms on Indy 500 weekend, which you pointed out is Memorial Day weekend. What place with that kind of a view had NO reservations or anything else during other weekends. When they weren't major holidays and the kids were still in school? I did love see Al enjoying a beer with the guys and having fun in the premiere it was great. 

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, readster said:

I know there were some fun moments. However, it also paved a constant problem with Jill. She planned things when she knew there were major sporting events or people over. I remember when in the second season premiere when they all went to Big Mike's after the show. They were having a lot of fun and it was a Friday night. I get that Jill wanted to surprise Tim and that she thought she was sending enough signals to Tim. However, she knew the K & B were coming over and they usually hang out after the show. It was like a: "Think about that for a moment." Goes back to getting the rooms on Indy 500 weekend, which you pointed out is Memorial Day weekend. What place with that kind of a view had NO reservations or anything else during other weekends. When they weren't major holidays and the kids were still in school? I did love see Al enjoying a beer with the guys and having fun in the premiere it was great. 

It really is. Why does she always pick sporting events or moments when she knows Tim's going to go down to Big Mike's with K&B and then get mad when it doesn't work? She never stops to think maybe she should pick another time? She knows how much her husband loves sports so why does she constantly try to schedule things then? Or when he has K&B coming over? She knows how much he loves sports and there's no way she didn't know it wasn't Indy500 or in the episode the Lions were playing. Tim would have been talking about it for weeks. She knows how much Tim loves sports and still does it.  The only reason I can think of is she doesn't care. She just doesn't care. Like when the counseling group is shocked that she made her husband go on Indy weekend she tries to claim it was the only time they could get in. Really? Memorial Weekend is the only time? A B&B no matter how great it isn't going to be booked year round. It would have had openings in the weeks leading up to Memorial weekend or they could have gone in September after the season ends. Not that they wouldn't have openings in the summer maybe not all summer long but still). Its bull. They could have gone another time. Just like they could have gone to dinner on Friday night or Saturday night when there wasn't a game playing. I'd ask why Tim doesn't point that out to her but I don't think she cares because its not important to her. The one when she's trying to "send" Tim signals despite that he clearly isn't getting them on the phone. It makes me think of what Tim says during at the couples counseling, she really does expect Tim to always know what she is thinking and she's feeling. I think he's exactly right. No matter how many times he clearly doesn't. When he doesn't she gets mad and blames him. She never stops to realize that he doesn't and she needs to tell him. To talk to him. Also, that doesn't go both ways or she wouldn't keep booking things during football games or Indy.  

[readster]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It really is. Why does she always pick sporting events or moments when she knows Tim's going to go down to Big Mike's with K&B and then get mad when it doesn't work? She never stops to think maybe she should pick another time? She knows how much her husband loves sports so why does she constantly try to schedule things then? Or when he has K&B coming over? She knows how much he loves sports and there's no way she didn't know it wasn't Indy500 or in the episode the Lions were playing. Tim would have been talking about it for weeks. She knows how much Tim loves sports and still does it.  The only reason I can think of is she doesn't care. She just doesn't care. Like when the counseling group is shocked that she made her husband go on Indy weekend she tries to claim it was the only time they could get in. Really? Memorial Weekend is the only time? A B&B no matter how great it isn't going to be booked year round. It would have had openings in the weeks leading up to Memorial weekend or they could have gone in September after the season ends. Not that they wouldn't have openings in the summer maybe not all summer long but still). Its bull. They could have gone another time. Just like they could have gone to dinner on Friday night or Saturday night when there wasn't a game playing. I'd ask why Tim doesn't point that out to her but I don't think she cares because its not important to her. The one when she's trying to "send" Tim signals despite that he clearly isn't getting them on the phone. It makes me think of what Tim says during at the couples counseling, she really does expect Tim to always know what she is thinking and she's feeling. I think he's exactly right. No matter how many times he clearly doesn't. When he doesn't she gets mad and blames him. She never stops to realize that he doesn't and she needs to tell him. To talk to him. Also, that doesn't go both ways or she wouldn't keep booking things during football games or Indy.  

It reminds me of a classic Simpson episode that basically told Marge to accept things. She over the course of almost a decade kept expecting Homer to change. Alec Baldwin does the voice of the character who points it out. He even says Homer keeps doing these things and Marge who has known him so long, married, had kids keeps expecting him to change and he never is. Yet, she is going to constantly get upset when he does something stupid, just like when Bart does something stupid. They don't learn. That's what happened here, Jill kept constantly expecting Tim to magically read her mind. Just like Tim and the boys and even Wilson pointed things out to Jill expecting she would eventually stop acting like she could never be wrong about anything. She never did and when she did, she would the next time say she is never wrong again. Shows like Home Improvement that his old Hollywood Matra "The best TV characters never change." However, it gets to a point when they focus on their worst habits. Jill's horrible cooking, Tim's obsession with "more power". Al always being awesome at tools, but would jump the second his mother snapped her fingers. Heidi is a sex toy, but has a brain, but we have to always go with how attractive she is. 

[andromeda331]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 6:57 PM, readster said:

It reminds me of a classic Simpson episode that basically told Marge to accept things. She over the course of almost a decade kept expecting Homer to change. Alec Baldwin does the voice of the character who points it out. He even says Homer keeps doing these things and Marge who has known him so long, married, had kids keeps expecting him to change and he never is. Yet, she is going to constantly get upset when he does something stupid, just like when Bart does something stupid. They don't learn. That's what happened here, Jill kept constantly expecting Tim to magically read her mind. Just like Tim and the boys and even Wilson pointed things out to Jill expecting she would eventually stop acting like she could never be wrong about anything. She never did and when she did, she would the next time say she is never wrong again. 

That's exactly what happened. Jill kept expecting Tim to change. To become the opera loving, ballet loving and musical loving person who went to all those things with her. Off on romantic getaways. Always saying the right thing and knowing the right thing. Its not uncommon for women but it is annoying. It was annoying and really wrong of Jill to keep expecting Tim to change. For one thing its really wrong to always hope the person you married changed instead of accepting them for who they are. Its like if you marry a doctor your going to have to deal with he or she is always going to be called away. If you marry someone who loves sports as much as Tim then you really shouldn't plan things during those sports events. It would be just as wrong if Tim planned something on a day or during an event that was important to Jill.

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Shows like Home Improvement that his old Hollywood Matra "The best TV characters never change." However, it gets to a point when they focus on their worst habits. Jill's horrible cooking, Tim's obsession with "more power". Al always being awesome at tools, but would jump the second his mother snapped her fingers. Heidi is a sex toy, but has a brain, but we have to always go with how attractive she is. 

 

That is what happens to most shows which is kind of interesting. When a show starts out you expect things to change as characters develop and they get a handle on their characters. But instead it almost always ends with them focusing on their worse habits or traits. That's usually what brings down a show. Fans get tired of watching characters get dumbed down or always focusing on the worse habits. After awhile you want them to start fixing those and wonder why the characters aren't trying to do better. To learn from their mistakes. It wasn't fun watching Jill never admitting she was wrong nor being treated that when she messed up, she messed up.  It wasn't fun seeing Al turned into a mama's boy. It was nice to see him loosen up after being so serious in the beginning of the show. I think most people like to see their characters evolve. Even if its just a little. I always think of Leverage as a show where they did a good job of that with each of their characters. You could see how far each one came in the five years of that show, especially Parker while still keeping the show fun and funny.  

[andromeda331]

Watching the episode where they go bowling I really liked seeing the boys finally get that bully at the end. He was awful. It was a really cool way they got him. Its too bad that no one who worked there was paying attention. But that probably was common I don't remember seeing many employees when my brother and I used to go play video games whether it was attached to a bowling alley, pizza place or on its own.  

[readster]

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Watching the episode where they go bowling I really liked seeing the boys finally get that bully at the end. He was awful. It was a really cool way they got him. Its too bad that no one who worked there was paying attention. But that probably was common I don't remember seeing many employees when my brother and I used to go play video games whether it was attached to a bowling alley, pizza place or on its own.  

Something Home Improvement did really good with Brad, Randy and Mark is that they really did act like brothers. You had them against each other, teaming up, having different tastes. Ragging on each others and getting into sibling squabbles, having things in common with their parents and at times where they didn't. It was really great for a show and the only other show at that time that did that was well Family Matters with the kids. I didn't get that feeling with Jill and her sisters. They were all over the map and when they were together they were in some dumb argument over something. Same with Tim, Marty and Jeff. They acted like brothers, but then they were way out there on things. I mean, how many times can Tim make fun of Jeff having no hair in the family before it got old? How many times did we have to see Marty hating work and Tim constantly stepping in and telling him to get over himself. Don't get me started on Al and Kal. I mean in season 5 when Randy goes to high school to take two classes since he is so ahead in 8th grade. You felt bad for Brad who saw his younger brother doing so well and while he got an A, he felt out shined by Randy being smarter and better than he was as a freshman. Randy didn't do anything intentionally, but you felt it right there and it was great. Even when Mark exposed the tape of Tim talking bad about Jill, Mark was looking to be like his older brothers. 

 

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hat's exactly what happened. Jill kept expecting Tim to change. To become the opera loving, ballet loving and musical loving person who went to all those things with her. Off on romantic getaways. Always saying the right thing and knowing the right thing. Its not uncommon for women but it is annoying. It was annoying and really wrong of Jill to keep expecting Tim to change. For one thing its really wrong to always hope the person you married changed instead of accepting them for who they are. Its like if you marry a doctor your going to have to deal with he or she is always going to be called away. If you marry someone who loves sports as much as Tim then you really shouldn't plan things during those sports events. It would be just as wrong if Tim planned something on a day or during an event that was important to Jill.

I know even when Jill said that Tim had already taken Brad and Randy had no interest in her stuff that Mark was her last chance. It was nice early on with Mark wanting to see ballet and so forth. However, except for karate and flying (both ditched by season 7). Mark really had no taste for anything until film making came up. So, at least he went in a style of theatre, but it was really had no feature until the horror movie. Another thing was when Robert Picardio first appearance in "A Sew, sew evening." I got that Tim put his foot in his mouth, but just like the bowling episode when Tim was making up a bad excuse with Rock on why he was losing so bad. Rock was ready to repeat that in a moment's notice. I mean, wait, that is not something I would be bringing up when the person is doing well. If they were emotional from something happening with a family member you don't go talking about it. When Joe first appeared, he just walks into the garage like he has been over tons of times. First of all, he is basically trespassing and then he goes and breaks the grill. At that point I would have either told him he better be paying for it and get the hell out of his house. Then when Tim was trying to make up an excuse to get Joe out of the house. Joe COMPLETELY assumed Jill was a drunk with sleeping problems. Tim even tried stopping him to explain, but he ran out. Then when Marie showed up and Tim did make an idiot out of himself not knowing who Marie was. Tim did put his foot in his mouth, but when he told Jill how Joe just walked into the house and acted like he knew cars like no other. Jill goes: "Who does that sound like?" I remember my mother saying: "Tim does and when has Tim just waltz into a person's house and tried to take it over?" It painted Jill like she really didn't know Tim, who did know cars very well and flash forward two years later when Tim sold the hot rod and Brad and Tim were saying how much certain cars cost. Jill says: "What kind of a fool would spend money on something like this?" Only for the Doug to turn around and say: "This fool." Jill gets caught in a very embarrassing situation, but I wanted to go: "Serves you right." 

   Joe was also so stupid to believe that Jill was a drunk at the steak place when Marie was telling Joe that there was no problem with Jill, but goes at it. Then when they get home and Jill explains to Al what Tim told Joe and Tim replies: "And only an idiot would repeat that." I wanted to go: "Repeat what?" Tim didn't say anything of the sort and it worked out well with Joe buying the original grill and saying just have them take a drive when the hot rod is done and call it even. I thought that was a nice conclusion, but Joe was very under utilize on the show. He really only made 3 appearances before Picardo was cast on Star Trek: Voyager and then they decided to write it that he ran off with a hot young blonde and then wrote Marie out an episode later after Jill's 39th birthday. The writers seem to just like having a character run off with someone if one was around and one wasn't. Of course Karen just magically disappeared after she got cast on Boy Meets World. Marie was suppose to be Jill's new BFF and then they wrote her off since they didn't know how to keep her around with Joe gone. 

[andromeda331]

18 hours ago, readster said:

Something Home Improvement did really good with Brad, Randy and Mark is that they really did act like brothers. You had them against each other, teaming up, having different tastes. Ragging on each others and getting into sibling squabbles, having things in common with their parents and at times where they didn't. It was really great for a show and the only other show at that time that did that was well Family Matters with the kids. I didn't get that feeling with Jill and her sisters. They were all over the map and when they were together they were in some dumb argument over something. Same with Tim, Marty and Jeff. They acted like brothers, but then they were way out there on things. I mean, how many times can Tim make fun of Jeff having no hair in the family before it got old? How many times did we have to see Marty hating work and Tim constantly stepping in and telling him to get over himself. Don't get me started on Al and Kal. I mean in season 5 when Randy goes to high school to take two classes since he is so ahead in 8th grade. You felt bad for Brad who saw his younger brother doing so well and while he got an A, he felt out shined by Randy being smarter and better than he was as a freshman. Randy didn't do anything intentionally, but you felt it right there and it was great. Even when Mark exposed the tape of Tim talking bad about Jill, Mark was looking to be like his older brothers. 

They really did. All three really watched like brothers. Brad and Randy teaming up against Mark, Mark wanting to play with them, the three teaming up against the bully or to prank their dad. It really felt natural. Brad having a hard time with Randy going to his school and doing better, it made sense. I don't remember if its that episode or a different one Brad talks about how easy school comes to Randy and how hard that is for him because it comes so hard. Tim pointing out that Brad and Randy are both good at different things like Brad was really good at sports and Randy wasn't. Randy felt the same way when Brad wrote an article for the school paper that everyone loved more then Randy's. Mark saving Randy from being beaten up Randy of course feels how it would feel to have your little brother save you.  When Randy and Brad were fighting, Tim assumed it was over the room which it did seem like it but also because their relationship was changing. Brad wasn't doing everything with Randy anymore. He had friends, was chasing girls and sports. Randy was feeling a little left out.  

With Tim and his brothers they just kept hitting the same jokes and same stuff over and over with Tim, Jeff and Marty. I watched the episode where Tim buys the hardware store in the end Jeff ends up buying into the business. Once again we have the same joke about both of them remaining employed thirty years from now. With Marty, I don't know how anyone can work with him and not tell him off. He spent the entire episode being a crappy salesperson and convincing people to go to a different store. Do they really think he and Jeff are going to last? I can see Jeff firing him in a few months if he even makes it that long. No one ever feels like telling him to grow up? Or that its no wonder he keeps getting fired because he has a crappy attitude? How many times do we have to see Marty being crappy at his job. Tim mentions often that he practically raised Marty but it never really seemed like that between the two. I agree about Jill and her sisters being all over the map. They never really felt like they grew up together.  We only saw them together in two episodes. One they fought over stupid stuff and had that weird reveal about one dating the other's husband. 

 

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I know even when Jill said that Tim had already taken Brad and Randy had no interest in her stuff that Mark was her last chance. It was nice early on with Mark wanting to see ballet and so forth. However, except for karate and flying (both ditched by season 7). Mark really had no taste for anything until film making came up. So, at least he went in a style of theatre, but it was really had no feature until the horror movie. 

 

I've wonder about that comment Jill made about Mark being her last chance.  I still wonder if she was subconsciously raising him like the daughter she wanted. But I think its more that Mark just does or wanted to do want everyone else was doing. He helped out a lot with his dad and tools I don't know if he ever liked it but his dad did and he wanted to do what his dad does. He baked with his mom and went to watch ballet with her. He did seem to like it. But neither stuck with him. They weren't interests he ended up having. Jill tries to get him interested in gymnastics but he choses karate and later flying lessons which both disappeared or were forgot about. When he was younger he also always wanted to hang out with Brad and Randy who really didn't. Film was the only thing that he ended up getting interested in. 
 

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Another thing was when Robert Picardio first appearance in "A Sew, sew evening." I got that Tim put his foot in his mouth, but just like the bowling episode when Tim was making up a bad excuse with Rock on why he was losing so bad. Rock was ready to repeat that in a moment's notice. I mean, wait, that is not something I would be bringing up when the person is doing well. If they were emotional from something happening with a family member you don't go talking about it. When Joe first appeared, he just walks into the garage like he has been over tons of times. First of all, he is basically trespassing and then he goes and breaks the grill. At that point I would have either told him he better be paying for it and get the hell out of his house. Then when Tim was trying to make up an excuse to get Joe out of the house. Joe COMPLETELY assumed Jill was a drunk with sleeping problems. Tim even tried stopping him to explain, but he ran out. Then when Marie showed up and Tim did make an idiot out of himself not knowing who Marie was. Tim did put his foot in his mouth, but when he told Jill how Joe just walked into the house and acted like he knew cars like no other. Jill goes: "Who does that sound like?" I remember my mother saying: "Tim does and when has Tim just waltz into a person's house and tried to take it over?" It painted Jill like she really didn't know Tim, who did know cars very well and flash forward two years later when Tim sold the hot rod and Brad and Tim were saying how much certain cars cost. Jill says: "What kind of a fool would spend money on something like this?" Only for the Doug to turn around and say: "This fool." Jill gets caught in a very embarrassing situation, but I wanted to go: "Serves you right."    Joe was also so stupid to believe that Jill was a drunk at the steak place when Marie was telling Joe that there was no problem with Jill, but goes at it. Then when they get home and Jill explains to Al what Tim told Joe and Tim replies: "And only an idiot would repeat that." I wanted to go: "Repeat what?" Tim didn't say anything of the sort and it worked out well with Joe buying the original grill and saying just have them take a drive when the hot rod is done and call it even. I thought that was a nice conclusion, but Joe was very under utilize on the show. He really only made 3 appearances before Picardo was cast on Star Trek: Voyager and then they decided to write it that he ran off with a hot young blonde and then wrote Marie out an episode later after Jill's 39th birthday. 

 

Joe was really stupid to believe that. When your wife tells you she doesn't have a problem then he should have at least believed her. It doesn't really make any sense for him to think that. Nothing about Jill said she had a drinking problem. I don't know why Rock thought to repeat what Tim said about Jill. Yes, it was a lie but he didn't know that. People don't usually repeat that when they hear it. I thought he'd do what most people would do which is be sympathetic to Jill leaving her to wonder why. 

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The writers seem to just like having a character run off with someone if one was around and one wasn't. Of course Karen just magically disappeared after she got cast on Boy Meets World. Marie was suppose to be Jill's new BFF and then they wrote her off since they didn't know how to keep her around with Joe gone. 

 

They really seemed to have a hard time keeping friends for Jill. Karen disappeared, so did Marie, there was Pam for awhile and I think Patty for awhile. It really doesn't seem like its that hard to keep one friend. Okay, so Karen left but why not keep Marie around? They had that problem with Tim for awhile too his friends and poker buddies changed until he ended up with Harry and Benny (although why Benny I don't know). 

[readster]

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With Tim and his brothers they just kept hitting the same jokes and same stuff over and over with Tim, Jeff and Marty. I watched the episode where Tim buys the hardware store in the end Jeff ends up buying into the business. Once again we have the same joke about both of them remaining employed thirty years from now. With Marty, I don't know how anyone can work with him and not tell him off. He spent the entire episode being a crappy salesperson and convincing people to go to a different store. Do they really think he and Jeff are going to last? I can see Jeff firing him in a few months if he even makes it that long. No one ever feels like telling him to grow up? Or that its no wonder he keeps getting fired because he has a crappy attitude? How many times do we have to see Marty being crappy at his job. Tim mentions often that he practically raised Marty but it never really seemed like that between the two. I agree about Jill and her sisters being all over the map. They never really felt like they grew up together.  We only saw them together in two episodes. One they fought over stupid stuff and had that weird reveal about one dating the other's husband. 

It reminded me when Lucille jumped on Marty about the girls not having time with Nancy during Christmas. She picked THEN to say something. Something that honestly was not easy on anyone and Marty was really trying to make it work. Lucille should have jumped on Marty's poor working attitude, him not saving enough money when he and and Nancy both worked and weren't spending things on tools, vacation hot spots or trips like Tim and Jill. Or Jeff and Tim not telling Marty to listen to himself, even bring up more on how Marty was ready to walk out on them in season 3 because "it was hard". I wanted to have Jeff go: "And I haven't had it hard? At least I tried to make things work." Or Tim going: "Look at what I had to do? I had to be on the road all the time, and when I was top salesman at Binford, I didn't just relax, I worked even harder for things." I mean, Lucille goes on with both Tim and Jeff about Jeff's new business and being better at owning the hardware store. Yet, the only time she comes down on Marty is when he feels the girls need to see their mother more, when she can't. 

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Joe was really stupid to believe that. When your wife tells you she doesn't have a problem then he should have at least believed her. It doesn't really make any sense for him to think that. Nothing about Jill said she had a drinking problem. I don't know why Rock thought to repeat what Tim said about Jill. Yes, it was a lie but he didn't know that. People don't usually repeat that when they hear it. I thought he'd do what most people would do which is be sympathetic to Jill leaving her to wonder why. 

People assumed so much when Tim made up a lie or was just trying to get a person to leave. I remember in the first karate episode with Mark, he made up a fake name, but he was trying to tell the father about having his kid leave Mark alone. It is revealed the woman who hit Tim was the aunt and then the Uncle comes up and then punches Tim several times and the instructor just let's it happen? I mean, what a great message to send. Reminds me of in an episode of Darmah & Greg, when a karate instructor played by Laurie Metcalf actually beats up both Greg and Darmah because she wanted more time with Darmah's yoga class. First of all, that is illegal and ABC actually had people writing in how horrible of a story it was. Saying that at no point does, Greg the lawyer bring up that would be a lawsuit for assault and Laurie M's character honestly does it because she can. Similar to how the kid who get's his remote control car crushed by Tim's steam roller. The kid moved the car to the steam roller and Tim didn't see it until the various last second. Yet, the kid's father beats up Tim like he was threatening the kid. Tim's friends make fun of him and Jill didn't run right to the instructor about things. I mean, come on!

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, readster said:

It reminded me when Lucille jumped on Marty about the girls not having time with Nancy during Christmas. She picked THEN to say something. Something that honestly was not easy on anyone and Marty was really trying to make it work. Lucille should have jumped on Marty's poor working attitude, him not saving enough money when he and and Nancy both worked and weren't spending things on tools, vacation hot spots or trips like Tim and Jill. Or Jeff and Tim not telling Marty to listen to himself, even bring up more on how Marty was ready to walk out on them in season 3 because "it was hard". I wanted to have Jeff go: "And I haven't had it hard? At least I tried to make things work." Or Tim going: "Look at what I had to do? I had to be on the road all the time, and when I was top salesman at Binford, I didn't just relax, I worked even harder for things." I mean, Lucille goes on with both Tim and Jeff about Jeff's new business and being better at owning the hardware store. Yet, the only time she comes down on Marty is when he feels the girls need to see their mother more, when she can't. 

I hated that she did that. It was already hard enough for them and she decides to make it worse. Of all things to pick on its that? Gee, Lucille why don't you make girls and Marty feel even worse? It would have made more sense if it was his poor working attitude. She had to hear him, why didn't she get on him or point out how hard it was for her to have go out and get a job after her husband died but she did it because she had too. She had a houseful of boys she still had to take care off. Or use that as a point after his divorce when that she was on her own too and had to figure out how to support her kids and parent them. She couldn't let them get away with stuff because they missed their dad or it was hard on them. She still had to be the parent. When she invested in her son's latest business venture she wasn't blind to his faults.  If you think about Marty's really crappy all around he wants everything to be easy and his way or he'll give up. Things were hard with Nancy after the twins were born so he wants to leave Nancy and the girls. So what make Nancy do it all? Later when his daughter's being a brat all episode long he admits that Nancy was the one who disciplined the girls. Between that and him constantly losing his jobs its no wonder why Nancy kicked him out.  She had to do all the parenting while knowing it would be only a matter of time when her husband quit another job because of his attitude. He's ungrateful when Tim offers him a job and complains and questions team. In the hardware store he can't be bothered to try and sell tools. Even if that means the store closes and he's out of job. Not to mention he doesn't seem to notice or care that he'd be part of the reason his brother's business failed.  He can't be bothered to do anything can he? He won't step up and do a job because he needs it to support his family. He won't shut up and do the job or work his way up. He must not pay attention to how hard Tim worked to get to where he was. He became the top salesman at Binford and he also mentioned hard it was. He was out on the road a lot away from his family. But he did it because it paid well and eventually paid off with Tool Time. 

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People assumed so much when Tim made up a lie or was just trying to get a person to leave. I remember in the first karate episode with Mark, he made up a fake name, but he was trying to tell the father about having his kid leave Mark alone. It is revealed the woman who hit Tim was the aunt and then the Uncle comes up and then punches Tim several times and the instructor just let's it happen? I mean, what a great message to send. Reminds me of in an episode of Darmah & Greg, when a karate instructor played by Laurie Metcalf actually beats up both Greg and Darmah because she wanted more time with Darmah's yoga class. First of all, that is illegal and ABC actually had people writing in how horrible of a story it was. Saying that at no point does, Greg the lawyer bring up that would be a lawsuit for assault and Laurie M's character honestly does it because she can. Similar to how the kid who get's his remote control car crushed by Tim's steam roller. The kid moved the car to the steam roller and Tim didn't see it until the various last second. Yet, the kid's father beats up Tim like he was threatening the kid. Tim's friends make fun of him and Jill didn't run right to the instructor about things. I mean, come on!

 

I can't believe the instructor didn't get involve and tell the woman to leave. And that if her son continued his behavior he'd be out too. That is business and I doubt many would tolerate it. He's probably had to deal with no shortage of crazy parents. After the first incident he should have told her if she did it again he'd have removed and banned. The steamroll kid was just a brat. There was no way for Tim to have known he moved his car behind the steamroller. His father should have been brought up on assault charges. They even had it on tape for the courts.  What kind of friends stand by while their friend gets beaten up? Especially when he did nothing wrong.  

[readster]

9 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

 

I can't believe the instructor didn't get involve and tell the woman to leave. And that if her son continued his behavior he'd be out too. That is business and I doubt many would tolerate it. He's probably had to deal with no shortage of crazy parents. After the first incident he should have told her if she did it again he'd have removed and banned. The steamroll kid was just a brat. There was no way for Tim to have known he moved his car behind the steamroller. His father should have been brought up on assault charges. They even had it on tape for the courts.  What kind of friends stand by while their friend gets beaten up? Especially when he did nothing wrong.  

Same in that episode when Jill has her eyes covered and says: "Please tell me your father didn't not just run over that boy." I wanted to go: "Why would you think that?" "The kid was nowhere near the steam roller, he was trying to have fun and when it backfired on him. " I also found it weird that after Randy ended up punching the other kid who wrote the newspaper on Mark saving him. Randy was not in the principals office, now granted, they did deal with the aftermath with Tim and Jill telling Randy to apologize. However, was he suspend from school for a day? How about the fact that the teacher for editorial let that even make it into the paper. I mean that is not only embarrassing, but leaves out: "Hey this other kid was about to beat the shit out of another one, but isn't cool he was a wimp." Speaking of adults and friends just standing by and letting things happen. In the Halloween episode where Brad throws the party while everyone is out. Wilson calls Brad out on things. However, he let's it go, but he could see these kids were under age and smoking, they were causing burns to the coach from where Wilson always looked over from the fence. Yet, he doesn't talk to Tim and Jill about he should have stepped in? The Bearensten Bears had more morals in The Sleep over book. Also, Jill constantly let her father rip on Tim for things over and over again. Even when she was no perfect and got caught in problems more often. I mean, really, there comes to a point where you either defend your spouse or let him constantly be bullied by someone. I really wish we would have seen a moment between Jill's father and Lucile. I would have loved her to say: "My son's name is Tim, the father of your grandchildren and put up with all your crap your family ignores. Stop calling him: "Hey you!" I think that was a huge thing missed, it was either Jill's family or Tim's family. We never saw them interacting. 

[andromeda331]

44 minutes ago, readster said:

Same in that episode when Jill has her eyes covered and says: "Please tell me your father didn't not just run over that boy." I wanted to go: "Why would you think that?" "The kid was nowhere near the steam roller, he was trying to have fun and when it backfired on him. " I also found it weird that after Randy ended up punching the other kid who wrote the newspaper on Mark saving him. Randy was not in the principals office, now granted, they did deal with the aftermath with Tim and Jill telling Randy to apologize. However, was he suspend from school for a day? How about the fact that the teacher for editorial let that even make it into the paper. I mean that is not only embarrassing, but leaves out: "Hey this other kid was about to beat the shit out of another one, but isn't cool he was a wimp." Speaking of adults and friends just standing by and letting things happen. In the Halloween episode where Brad throws the party while everyone is out. Wilson calls Brad out on things. However, he let's it go, but he could see these kids were under age and smoking, they were causing burns to the coach from where Wilson always looked over from the fence. Yet, he doesn't talk to Tim and Jill about he should have stepped in? The Bearensten Bears had more morals in The Sleep over book.

Yeah, there's no way Tim would run over a child. I don't know why Jill thinks he would. Geez, Jill, Tim's not a psycho. Randy should have been suspended for punching that boy. I can't imagine the principal just letting that go. Why would a teacher even write about that? For one its a horrible thing to do and wrong to congratulate a boy for not being a wimp by punching another kid. That teacher would be fired for it. You just let the entire student body and their parents that your okay with violence.  That kid's parents would have field day with the school and that teacher. I don't know why Wilson told Brad he wouldn't turn him into his parents given the under aged, smoking and probably drinking. Not only is that bad but had anything happened at that party or afterwards Jill and Tim could have gotten in huge trouble. Why not point that out to Brad?  Plus if he noticed the party then he what happened to Randy. He really should have put and end to that party. Also weird is Tim finds out that Jason clearly lied about loving Tool Time but in the episode with the insane alarm system he once again believes Jason when he says he's buying his first saw. Why? He already knew Jason was a liar, had thrown a wild party in his house with under age kids, smoking and probably drinking, and had Randy thrown out.

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Also, Jill constantly let her father rip on Tim for things over and over again. Even when she was no perfect and got caught in problems more often. I mean, really, there comes to a point where you either defend your spouse or let him constantly be bullied by someone. I really wish we would have seen a moment between Jill's father and Lucile. I would have loved her to say: "My son's name is Tim, the father of your grandchildren and put up with all your crap your family ignores. Stop calling him: "Hey you!" I think that was a huge thing missed, it was either Jill's family or Tim's family. We never saw them interacting. 

 

No, she never spoke up and told him to cut that out. Yes it happens a lot in families especially with in-laws but usually the spouse repeatedly is defending her husband or wife and telling them to stop insulting their spouse all the time. Jill never does that. Not only that she lets him take the brunt of her father's anger when Tim said he didn't like his book and Tim only said something to help Jill out to get things started. How is that not a problem between Tim and Jill? Anyone would be upset if not only do they have to put up with their wife's father-in-law treating him like crap and their wife says nothing. She won't say or do anything to defend him. And yes, she was the one who ended up cause most of the problems. Like the episode where Lillian is talking to her about her dad, Jill decides she'll talk to her dad, even though her mother doesn't want her too and Tim tells her its a bad idea and to stay out of it. She doesn't and both end up mad at her. Tim ends up being the one to fix things but no one remembers that. She won't tell her mother her feelings about the clock and tea set leaving her mother to think Jill and Tim are having problems, Tim fixes that too. I'd love to have seen Lucille say that to the Colonel and I really think she would. The only ones we ever saw interacting when the Colonel was holding the twins and introducing Patton to him and Jeff and Carrie. It would have been really interesting to see both families together. I wonder what Lucille thought the Colonel and Lillian.  

[readster]

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Tim fixes that too. I'd love to have seen Lucille say that to the Colonel and I really think she would. The only ones we ever saw interacting when the Colonel was holding the twins and introducing Patton to him and Jeff and Carrie. It would have been really interesting to see both families together. I wonder what Lucille thought the Colonel and Lillian.  

I could see Lucille and Lillian getting along fine. They both did a lot for their families. Lucille had to go back to work, raise 5 boys on her own and sacrificed a lot of her own personal life outside the house. Lillian had to do the same for the Colonel. Keep the girls happy, especially on weeks on end when he was out on missions as described by both Lillian and Jill. She didn't gave up a lot of her personal interests outside the family too to keep the Colonel happy. As for Lucille and Colonel, oh I could see them butting heads constantly. Lucille and Tim had similar humor, which he hated. However, they also would have seen that each other wanted the best for their children. However, I could have seen them getting into an argument on how Tim and Jill were the real only successful kids in their families. I could have seen Jill's father ripping on Marty and Jeff. I could have seen Lucille telling Carrie and Lisa to get over themselves. 

  One thing that is interesting about Home Improvement with both the Taylors and the Patterson is how having a father or no father figure in the picture effected them. If Mr. Taylor wouldn't have died Marty would have possibly had a more positive attitude, Tim probably would have gone into cars more instead of tools (with more understanding of tools). Jeff might have had more success and less problems with divorcing twice (he was in 8th grade with their dad died). With Jill's family, sure, they had a father, but he was very dominating, wanted things his way or the high way and was very stubborn and had a very fixed mind set (something I can relate to with a father-in-law). 

[readster]

You know, the more I think about it with Wilson, I get he was suppose to be this retired professor who traveled, enjoyed the simpler things in life and modeled himself after his father. However, with all of Wilson's book smarts and wisdom. He was very oblivious to things. I mean making an eel pie at Thanksgiving? Making his own toilet paper (which be a hell of a hard job at home). Not realizing that there is a thing as a "recorded message" when he first had an answering machine. I did love Wilson's back ground though. His father who did a lot of fun stuff just didn't know how to talk to him or his brother and sister. He was married once and lost his wife at a very young age (I'm thinking cancer) since if it would have been 15 years when Wilson was thinking of moving away. Would have placed them in their early 30s when they got married. Having problems with a father who was fun, but didn't know how to talk to his own kids like Jill's father lead to estrangement, apparently also a divorce as we found out with Willow's parents and showing his anger to the Beach Boys who were his 1st cousins, while Wilson had better relationships with his students and former co-workers. It made him well rounded, but then it also put him in being out of touch with the modern world and not in a "people should be sitting together and more family time." more of: "Wilson, seriously, do you leave your house?"

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, readster said:

I could see Lucille and Lillian getting along fine. They both did a lot for their families. Lucille had to go back to work, raise 5 boys on her own and sacrificed a lot of her own personal life outside the house. Lillian had to do the same for the Colonel. Keep the girls happy, especially on weeks on end when he was out on missions as described by both Lillian and Jill. She didn't gave up a lot of her personal interests outside the family too to keep the Colonel happy. As for Lucille and Colonel, oh I could see them butting heads constantly. Lucille and Tim had similar humor, which he hated. However, they also would have seen that each other wanted the best for their children. However, I could have seen them getting into an argument on how Tim and Jill were the real only successful kids in their families. I could have seen Jill's father ripping on Marty and Jeff. I could have seen Lucille telling Carrie and Lisa to get over themselves. 

Your probably right about Lucille and Lillian getting along. I'd love to have seen Lucille and the Colonel I don't think she'd put up with him constantly ripping into Tim and the Colonel's never really had to deal with anyone who won't just give in and let him have his way. Which he honestly really needs. Its crappy the way his wife and daughters and to live and still as adults had to let him have his way. Seeing the Colonel or anyone rip into Marty and Jeff would have been awesome. Same with Lucille telling Jill's sisters to get over themselves. They really were ridiculous. It also would have been really fun to see Wilson interacting with both families. Jill and Tim both had to have talked about him all the time to their moms. 

 

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  One thing that is interesting about Home Improvement with both the Taylors and the Patterson is how having a father or no father figure in the picture effected them. If Mr. Taylor wouldn't have died Marty would have possibly had a more positive attitude, Tim probably would have gone into cars more instead of tools (with more understanding of tools). Jeff might have had more success and less problems with divorcing twice (he was in 8th grade with their dad died). With Jill's family, sure, they had a father, but he was very dominating, wanted things his way or the high way and was very stubborn and had a very fixed mind set (something I can relate to with a father-in-law). 

 

They really did well showing how both effect both families and the kids. It is still ironic that Jill ends up being the one most like her father. Tim probably would have gone into cars instead of tools, maybe Marty and Jeff both would have turned out better. Its possible Jeff suddenly losing his father effected him to constantly chase zany ideas and him ending up divorced twice. Maybe he's unable to be there or lay down roots because his father did and he died young. Maybe Marty was effect not having a dad around. He's the only who probably has no memory of his dad. He was only one. The others were all older. He probably feels gipped at not having a father or any memories. It is still interesting he didn't pick up on his mom having to work to support her kids. You'd think that would have stuck with him. But it didn't he ends up with a bad attitude and constantly losing jobs and quitting when things get hard. Maybe he didn't experience as many hardships as his older brothers? They all had to deal with losing their dad and their mom suddenly going to work. By the time he was old enough to remember maybe the family was doing better. They were passed their grief and Lucille was doing a good job supporting them and everything was stable again. Maybe he doesn't have any memory of the hard times so he really doesn't know how to deal with them or when things get hard.  

[andromeda331]

15 hours ago, readster said:

You know, the more I think about it with Wilson, I get he was suppose to be this retired professor who traveled, enjoyed the simpler things in life and modeled himself after his father. However, with all of Wilson's book smarts and wisdom. He was very oblivious to things. I mean making an eel pie at Thanksgiving? Making his own toilet paper (which be a hell of a hard job at home). Not realizing that there is a thing as a "recorded message" when he first had an answering machine. I did love Wilson's back ground though. His father who did a lot of fun stuff just didn't know how to talk to him or his brother and sister. He was married once and lost his wife at a very young age (I'm thinking cancer) since if it would have been 15 years when Wilson was thinking of moving away. Would have placed them in their early 30s when they got married. Having problems with a father who was fun, but didn't know how to talk to his own kids like Jill's father lead to estrangement, apparently also a divorce as we found out with Willow's parents and showing his anger to the Beach Boys who were his 1st cousins, while Wilson had better relationships with his students and former co-workers. It made him well rounded, but then it also put him in being out of touch with the modern world and not in a "people should be sitting together and more family time." more of: "Wilson, seriously, do you leave your house?"

He really was oblivious to things and its really a surprise when he is. He knows so much. He's been all over the world and had millions of amazing experiences. Like an early episode from the first season Tim is trying and failing to get his sons to stop being gross at the table and Wilson comes up with the very bizarre idea that because people know longer hunt their food they don't respect it. Ah, their kids, Wilson. I mean has he ever met kids? Especially boys at those ages? Its completely normal. It was such a weird thing to say from someone who suppose to know everything. At least when he gave Tim the advice when Jill was doing pottery in the garage it made sense because why else would she set up there? There was no way for Wilson or anyone to have guessed it was to get away from her husband. When Wilson wants to move because his memories are fading it really makes sense that Tim's the one to talk to him. He probably had those same worries after his dad died.  I loved Tim having to point out to Wilson why would the Beach Boys ask him about song making? He doesn't know anything about it. It is crazy to think someone who is usually so calm and understand being angry at his Wilson cousins about music. Aside from Willow, Katherine sounds like the only one he really had and loved and had a good relationship with. And sad that he lost her. Its probably why I wish he and Judith had gotten married. It would have been nice to see him with family. I'm surprised none of the colleges around Detroit or rest of Michigan never came to him wanting him to teach classes. He had so many different fields he probably could have has his picked. Maybe lower grades too. My schools were always looking for people who could come into the classroom and teach kids about different cultures and parts of the world. He probably would have been a hit.      

[readster]

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They really did well showing how both effect both families and the kids. It is still ironic that Jill ends up being the one most like her father. Tim probably would have gone into cars instead of tools, maybe Marty and Jeff both would have turned out better. Its possible Jeff suddenly losing his father effected him to constantly chase zany ideas and him ending up divorced twice. Maybe he's unable to be there or lay down roots because his father did and he died young. Maybe Marty was effect not having a dad around. He's the only who probably has no memory of his dad. He was only one. The others were all older. He probably feels gipped at not having a father or any memories. It is still interesting he didn't pick up on his mom having to work to support her kids. You'd think that would have stuck with him. But it didn't he ends up with a bad attitude and constantly losing jobs and quitting when things get hard. Maybe he didn't experience as many hardships as his older brothers? They all had to deal with losing their dad and their mom suddenly going to work. By the time he was old enough to remember maybe the family was doing better. They were passed their grief and Lucille was doing a good job supporting them and everything was stable again. Maybe he doesn't have any memory of the hard times so he really doesn't know how to deal with them or when things get hard.  

 

 Yeah, all Marty has is stories and seeing things from back in the day. Tim even told Wilson since he was 11 when his father died, he never had a chance to be a jerk or show early teen angst to his father, unlike Randy and Brad. I could see Jeff having a major problem, that was his dad and losing him by the start of high school? I'm sure that there was sympathy, but as we know. Something that traumatic happening to a teenage age boy. I could see things having a major affect on someone and then the sole provider being the mother who at that point had not been working for a while. Plus, we know that Jeff and Marty had a good relationship, classic baby and oldest of the family. Plus, while we never met the other two brothers, sounds like they had a combination of Marty or Jeff's problems. Either they didn't make good career or life decisions and apparently weren't married. 

[readster]

When Season 2 started, that began the complaints about Jill hating her hair cuts. I remember in August of 92 when they were promoting HI moving to Wednesdays and she was promoting it with Richard Karn and I remember seeing her in that short, curly hair and going: "What is that?" Then she grew it out as soon as she could and then, it was like her stylist or crew didn't know what to do with her hair in season 3. I remember later on it was written in with Tim telling Wilson: "That woman has never had a hair cut she has liked." She looked great after season 4, but I miss Jill's season 1 hair, Looked great. Same goes when Brad got the pony tail, it was his idea to "go with the crowd" and everyone was not happy with his hair. The episode where it gets done, he is wearing a wig at the beginning to hide it. However, Zachary apparently looked at it a few days later and after one of his friends said he looked like he was joining a gang. He started hating it. After that, producers were telling the cast, that when they were planning on getting a major hair change. They had to tell them before hand because if you also notice when JTT get's his hair cut to the more shorter look in the last few seasons. It was because he didn't want long hair anymore and why they had such a big focus for the episode where he walks in with his new look. 

[FormerMod-a1]

I never knew all this behind the scenes info.  Of course, I was quite young when watching this originally. :-P

[readster]

39 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I never knew all this behind the scenes info.  Of course, I was quite young when watching this originally. :-P

I was trying to get into acting and went to school for theater and business. So, I learned to break things down and research information. It's funny learning all these things years after the show ended. It's not a "he said, she said" kind of talk or any ghost writing. These were real interviews and pieces that were taken from behind the scenes talk and so forth. The funniest one that gets me is that Richard Karn found out about auditioning for Home Improvement because he was in traffic school after getting a speeding ticket. Person who was also there was a casting agent for the show and Richard had told him he was an actor who had done mostly Broad Way and various commercials here and there and had moved back to California to get on a TV show. What was funny was in the 5th anniversary show when they showed a bearded Tim and a beardless Al and Mrs. Binford. The original talk when doing a pilot was talking about having different people in roles. Patricia Richardson was not the original choice for Jill, it was a different actress. They didn't feel she was Jill and Patricia had better chemistry with Tim Allen and the boys. So, they recasted the part and refilmed the pilot. The idea that Mrs. Binford was the original Tool Girl was the idea of having a non sexy, much older Tool Girl. It was actually Richard Karn's idea about the beard saying he hadn't see himself without a beard in a few years and thought it be hilarious. The part of the pilot Tool Time Episode was filmed after the rest of the episode, because they wanted a more general reaction from the audience. Which they got in spades. 

[andromeda331]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 7:50 AM, readster said:

 

 Yeah, all Marty has is stories and seeing things from back in the day. Tim even told Wilson since he was 11 when his father died, he never had a chance to be a jerk or show early teen angst to his father, unlike Randy and Brad. I could see Jeff having a major problem, that was his dad and losing him by the start of high school? I'm sure that there was sympathy, but as we know. Something that traumatic happening to a teenage age boy. I could see things having a major affect on someone and then the sole provider being the mother who at that point had not been working for a while. Plus, we know that Jeff and Marty had a good relationship, classic baby and oldest of the family. Plus, while we never met the other two brothers, sounds like they had a combination of Marty or Jeff's problems. Either they didn't make good career or life decisions and apparently weren't married. 

It definitely would effect all the boys and it really seems like it did. It can't be easy to be a teenage boy just starting high school to lose your dad. That's going to be hard. Same with being eleven and one. It really effected them all but in different ways. Its not really uncommon and when you look back its easier to see how much more it effected your life. Jeff probably had everything together when it all fell apart.  It effect not just high school but he's also at the point of thinking about college and careers but suddenly didn't have his dad to talk about. What is interesting is how it effected Jeff. Usually, when there's a death of parent the oldest is the one who steps up and helps out Mom and probably gets a job to help out. It doesn't really seem like Jeff did that. He ends up coming up with hair brain schemes and divorced twice. Tim seems to be the one who stepped up and helped with his baby brother and in other ways. He checks on his mom regarding things that need to be fixing. He also seems to be the only sibling that realized he had to work hard to get what wanted. Jeff and Marty really are so similar. Neither are able or willing to get a job whether its good or bad and just work it whether its long enough to work their way up or until something else comes along. Both really ended up making sure they have no real responsibility in their lives. Marty has his wife doing all the hard part of parent. We don't know what happened in Jeff's marriages but given what we see of him. If he's not willing to put any effort into a real job or coming up with a good business idea how much effort is he putting into his marriages? Neither really grow up from what we hear about the other brothers it doesn't sound like they do either. Tim's the only one who really went out and made something of himself. Ironically by idolizing his dad and wanting to be just like him. He went into tools to be just like his dad and built a really good career that lead to Tool Time. He married and had sons of his own just like his dad. But in doing so he never actually chose what he would want to do. I wonder if Tim didn't have that if he would have gone the same way as his brothers? Maybe not since he had an interested in cars.       

[andromeda331]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 8:03 AM, readster said:

When Season 2 started, that began the complaints about Jill hating her hair cuts. I remember in August of 92 when they were promoting HI moving to Wednesdays and she was promoting it with Richard Karn and I remember seeing her in that short, curly hair and going: "What is that?" Then she grew it out as soon as she could and then, it was like her stylist or crew didn't know what to do with her hair in season 3. I remember later on it was written in with Tim telling Wilson: "That woman has never had a hair cut she has liked." She looked great after season 4, but I miss Jill's season 1 hair, Looked great. Same goes when Brad got the pony tail, it was his idea to "go with the crowd" and everyone was not happy with his hair. The episode where it gets done, he is wearing a wig at the beginning to hide it. However, Zachary apparently looked at it a few days later and after one of his friends said he looked like he was joining a gang. He started hating it. After that, producers were telling the cast, that when they were planning on getting a major hair change. They had to tell them before hand because if you also notice when JTT get's his hair cut to the more shorter look in the last few seasons. It was because he didn't want long hair anymore and why they had such a big focus for the episode where he walks in with his new look. 

It sounds crazy to be warned about hair cuts but I can see why shows would want that. For one thing their all playing characters who well aren't them. If Patricia decided on a whim to shave her head well that's probably not something Jill would ever do. It can be funny when your watching a period piece and they don't have hair that fit the period. Jill had so many different hairstyles but I always though it looked best when it was straight and shoulders length or curly, or the little shorter but nice curls. I think it was after her short permed. Brad getting a ponytail actually really fit his character.  It was popular then and he seems like he followed that was considered cool at the time.  

[andromeda331]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 7:18 PM, readster said:

I was trying to get into acting and went to school for theater and business. So, I learned to break things down and research information. It's funny learning all these things years after the show ended. It's not a "he said, she said" kind of talk or any ghost writing. These were real interviews and pieces that were taken from behind the scenes talk and so forth. The funniest one that gets me is that Richard Karn found out about auditioning for Home Improvement because he was in traffic school after getting a speeding ticket. Person who was also there was a casting agent for the show and Richard had told him he was an actor who had done mostly Broad Way and various commercials here and there and had moved back to California to get on a TV show. What was funny was in the 5th anniversary show when they showed a bearded Tim and a beardless Al and Mrs. Binford. The original talk when doing a pilot was talking about having different people in roles. Patricia Richardson was not the original choice for Jill, it was a different actress. They didn't feel she was Jill and Patricia had better chemistry with Tim Allen and the boys. So, they recasted the part and refilmed the pilot. The idea that Mrs. Binford was the original Tool Girl was the idea of having a non sexy, much older Tool Girl. It was actually Richard Karn's idea about the beard saying he hadn't see himself without a beard in a few years and thought it be hilarious. The part of the pilot Tool Time Episode was filmed after the rest of the episode, because they wanted a more general reaction from the audience. Which they got in spades. 

I love how much information you have about the show. Its really cool. Watching the "original" Tool Time episode was really cool. It was really cool to have Tim with a beard and Al without one. I love that Mrs. Binford was the original tool girl. It really makes sense those types of shows usually don't have a lot of money for the first episode.  Its almost always a really small budget because no one knows if anyone is going to watch it. I'm agree about Patricia she and Tim Allen had really good chemistry even if she does drive me crazy. Like the episode where she tries to set up Dave and Karen. She's really horrible to Tim who objects to that and is getting angry over his plan of having a couple friends over to drop the engine in the hot rod and she hijacked it to set up two people who clearly won't work out and turn it into a BBQ. Which Tim has to be the one outside grilling. She of course gets mad at him. Even though she's the one who hijacked his plans. Wilson did help her see she was wrong which was a surprise and explain to her why the hot rod is so important to Tim, how he sees it. Although that part doesn't last beyond the episode. I still don't understand why Jill doesn't already understand that. She's been with him long enough to know.  I also don't know why she didn't set up Karen and Al they would have made more sense. Even when she tried to claim Dave and Karen had so much in common when Dave asked she couldn't come up with a single one? Then why do you think they'll hit it off Jill? It was really cool that Jill was able to surprise Tim with Mario for the 5th anniversary show.  That was really nice.

[readster]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I love how much information you have about the show. Its really cool. Watching the "original" Tool Time episode was really cool. It was really cool to have Tim with a beard and Al without one. I love that Mrs. Binford was the original tool girl. It really makes sense those types of shows usually don't have a lot of money for the first episode.  Its almost always a really small budget because no one knows if anyone is going to watch it. I'm agree about Patricia she and Tim Allen had really good chemistry even if she does drive me crazy. Like the episode where she tries to set up Dave and Karen. She's really horrible to Tim who objects to that and is getting angry over his plan of having a couple friends over to drop the engine in the hot rod and she hijacked it to set up two people who clearly won't work out and turn it into a BBQ. Which Tim has to be the one outside grilling. She of course gets mad at him. Even though she's the one who hijacked his plans. Wilson did help her see she was wrong which was a surprise and explain to her why the hot rod is so important to Tim, how he sees it. Although that part doesn't last beyond the episode. I still don't understand why Jill doesn't already understand that. She's been with him long enough to know.  I also don't know why she didn't set up Karen and Al they would have made more sense. Even when she tried to claim Dave and Karen had so much in common when Dave asked she couldn't come up with a single one? Then why do you think they'll hit it off Jill? It was really cool that Jill was able to surprise Tim with Mario for the 5th anniversary show.  That was really nice.

Jill had very weird conceived notions about things since the show began. The Poker Night is an example, where she really should have just took her sister out of the house instead and let everything cool down. Instead she tries to talk to her on various things and it all goes out the door. Especially when Tim and the guys try telling her husband what would be easier to get things done. That doesn't go well. Of course, episode that I hated how Jill reacted and really put Tim in a bad spot was Ex Marks the Spot when Tim's old high school girlfriend, Stacey shows up in town. I get Tim's issue and sadly avoiding things. However, Stacey really brings up some things that Tim really didn't want to go through and when Al wants Tim to tell Stacey he doesn't feel the connection and even runs away to avoid it. Everyone jumps on Tim not able to tell Stacey the date isn't happening. WHERE IS IT TIM'S JOB TO DO THIS? They can spin it all they want, but it wasn't Tim's job to call off a date for Al. That is his job and if he wasn't such a Mama's boy, he do it himself. Even when he does own up to it, everyone is: "Tim you can't do one simple things." Once again, Tim is in a weird spot that isn't his fault. Yes, he should have called it off with Stacey 15 years ago when they were in college and Stacey got the point that Tim met someone else. However, it wasn't like she moved on from things. What? She might not have divorced her ex-husband if Tim would have called it off at 20? Seeing that episode years later, everyone acts more like an idiot than Stu did when he showed up still acting like it was Sophomore year at Michigan State still. 

[readster]

9 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

It sounds crazy to be warned about hair cuts but I can see why shows would want that. For one thing their all playing characters who well aren't them. If Patricia decided on a whim to shave her head well that's probably not something Jill would ever do. It can be funny when your watching a period piece and they don't have hair that fit the period. Jill had so many different hairstyles but I always though it looked best when it was straight and shoulders length or curly, or the little shorter but nice curls. I think it was after her short permed. Brad getting a ponytail actually really fit his character.  It was popular then and he seems like he followed that was considered cool at the time.  

Oh, I completely got the shaved sides and pony tail for Brad. It was very popular at the time, I'm only two years and a half years older than Zachary. I remember seeing it on various boys in town or at school or at the middle school at the time. I also had my hair grown out more like all 3 of the boys did at the time, it was the style at the time. I'm a teacher now and I see all the hair styles, latest dance trends these days. Does take me back. 

[andromeda331]

15 hours ago, readster said:

Jill had very weird conceived notions about things since the show began. The Poker Night is an example, where she really should have just took her sister out of the house instead and let everything cool down. Instead she tries to talk to her on various things and it all goes out the door. Especially when Tim and the guys try telling her husband what would be easier to get things done. That doesn't go well. Of course, episode that I hated how Jill reacted and really put Tim in a bad spot was Ex Marks the Spot when Tim's old high school girlfriend, Stacey shows up in town. I get Tim's issue and sadly avoiding things. However, Stacey really brings up some things that Tim really didn't want to go through and when Al wants Tim to tell Stacey he doesn't feel the connection and even runs away to avoid it. Everyone jumps on Tim not able to tell Stacey the date isn't happening. WHERE IS IT TIM'S JOB TO DO THIS? They can spin it all they want, but it wasn't Tim's job to call off a date for Al. That is his job and if he wasn't such a Mama's boy, he do it himself. Even when he does own up to it, everyone is: "Tim you can't do one simple things." Once again, Tim is in a weird spot that isn't his fault. Yes, he should have called it off with Stacey 15 years ago when they were in college and Stacey got the point that Tim met someone else. However, it wasn't like she moved on from things. What? She might not have divorced her ex-husband if Tim would have called it off at 20? Seeing that episode years later, everyone acts more like an idiot than Stu did when he showed up still acting like it was Sophomore year at Michigan State still. 

She really did. Like that poker game why didn't she just do that? That's exactly what would have happened if they had gone out like they planned and left the men to the poker game. Both would have cooled down and it would have blown over. Someone who's been married as long as she has would have known that. I hate Jill putting Tim on the spot and really don't understand what the big deal was. Yes, Tim should have called Stacey and ended things he'd hardly be the only guy not to do that because in general they don't call, send a note or text or whatever so they don't have to deal with the crying. But it was years ago!  They both moved on. Married other people. Stacey's marriage ending had nothing to do with one old boyfriend never calling. Its ridiculous. Then after jumping all over Tim the entire episode for not calling and not telling Stacey, he gets blamed for AL not doing the exact same thing? How is that fair or make any sense? They had that episode on tonight with Tim's friend cheating on Karen and Jill once again refusing to admit she's wrong. She does the exact same thing as Tim did or tried to but refused to admit she was wrong or that it was the same thing. Tim keeps staying on her. He even comes back to it in the later scene realizing that Jill owed him an apologize. She won't do it until she finally caves and gives that lame apology. Tim was right she wouldn't let him get away with that apology or even the whole thing. I don't get why they have Jill do stiff like that and expect us to still like her. She kept a secret about Dave and Karen just like Tim tried too. He got busted but ended up doing the right thing. Jill despite being all over Tim didn't or she would have told him a week ago that Karen was thinking about breaking up with Dave.

[readster]

11 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

She really did. Like that poker game why didn't she just do that? That's exactly what would have happened if they had gone out like they planned and left the men to the poker game. Both would have cooled down and it would have blown over. Someone who's been married as long as she has would have known that. I hate Jill putting Tim on the spot and really don't understand what the big deal was. Yes, Tim should have called Stacey and ended things he'd hardly be the only guy not to do that because in general they don't call, send a note or text or whatever so they don't have to deal with the crying. But it was years ago!  They both moved on. Married other people. Stacey's marriage ending had nothing to do with one old boyfriend never calling. Its ridiculous. Then after jumping all over Tim the entire episode for not calling and not telling Stacey, he gets blamed for AL not doing the exact same thing? How is that fair or make any sense? They had that episode on tonight with Tim's friend cheating on Karen and Jill once again refusing to admit she's wrong. She does the exact same thing as Tim did or tried to but refused to admit she was wrong or that it was the same thing. Tim keeps staying on her. He even comes back to it in the later scene realizing that Jill owed him an apologize. She won't do it until she finally caves and gives that lame apology. Tim was right she wouldn't let him get away with that apology or even the whole thing. I don't get why they have Jill do stiff like that and expect us to still like her. She kept a secret about Dave and Karen just like Tim tried too. He got busted but ended up doing the right thing. Jill despite being all over Tim didn't or she would have told him a week ago that Karen was thinking about breaking up with Dave.

The Closet episode was on tonight and that's in my top 5 favorite episodes. However, I get Tim more than ever being married myself now about my wife not getting rid of stuff. She still had things she had for about 12 years ago, that have holes in them and I'm going: "Get rid of them." She is: "Well, they could be fix."  You know when Jill is saying how she was separating the various clothes to get rid of them. I don't know why anyone would keep either maternity clothes or "fat clothes" when it is pretty much 100% they will never be used again. I do know that Patricia Richardson talked about her weight issues over the years, especially having her twins before the show started. Outside her hair, I think she looked good from season 2-3. She really found a good balance by season 5. Looking at her early in season 1, I can tel she was still working on getting rid of the baby weight and other things. It's funny how much they wove in the actors real struggles during the course of the series. Patricia's weight and issues with her now ex-husband. Tim Allen too close to not having a father in his life. Richard Karn having problems with celebrity status. It felt more natural with the actors verses say: Roseanne where they hit us over the head with her real life issues growing up. 

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, readster said:

The Closet episode was on tonight and that's in my top 5 favorite episodes. However, I get Tim more than ever being married myself now about my wife not getting rid of stuff. She still had things she had for about 12 years ago, that have holes in them and I'm going: "Get rid of them." She is: "Well, they could be fix."  You know when Jill is saying how she was separating the various clothes to get rid of them. I don't know why anyone would keep either maternity clothes or "fat clothes" when it is pretty much 100% they will never be used again. I do know that Patricia Richardson talked about her weight issues over the years, especially having her twins before the show started. Outside her hair, I think she looked good from season 2-3. She really found a good balance by season 5. Looking at her early in season 1, I can tel she was still working on getting rid of the baby weight and other things. It's funny how much they wove in the actors real struggles during the course of the series. Patricia's weight and issues with her now ex-husband. Tim Allen too close to not having a father in his life. Richard Karn having problems with celebrity status. It felt more natural with the actors verses say: Roseanne where they hit us over the head with her real life issues growing up. 

I don't know why Jill would have kept her maternity clothes either. I might by a pair of pants or two because I do know some women who have kept those because they turned out to be really comfortable to lounge around the house in. The rest she would have gotten rid of. Saving that dress that was too small makes more sense. So many keep that in the hope one day they will fit into those again. It is funny that they used actors real life struggles. When they did that it really worked with the characters. I really didn't think much of Jill's weigh in the early seasons because it seemed normal to me.  Having three kids, chasing after them and focusing on them while being home until she started working. Season two with the start of the haircuts well now she's out there working and it makes sense she'll start obsessing over it after being home with the kids for years and too busy to give it much though.  She looked really great in the later seasons which made sense we saw her working out. It made more sense the kids were older and she had more time to work out. It makes sense for Al to go overboard with his celebrity status. He wasn't used to it or having so many people interested in him. Like the episode where he ends up one of the Bachelor of the Year. He's never been popular especially with women. Its easy to see how he'd let all that attention go to his head. Tim when he talks about his dad it really felt real. That makes sense if it was coming from Tim Allen. How hard it was for him. They did a good job over the series of bringing that up at the right time. Talking to Wilson how he never got to be a jerk with his dad or not wanting anything to do with the Will, telling Jill about his uncle selling his dad's car, another episode worrying about being the same age as his father and having all boys just like him that maybe that means it'll happen to him. It always felt real. It makes sense now knowing that Tim Allen lost his father at the same age his character did.  I wish we had gotten more of that after Jill's father died and the aftermath. From Jill, from the boys and her mother. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by andromeda331

[readster]

Something that really makes you wonder between Tim and Jill is when Tim really tries to do things for Jill and it not only goes wrong, but he doesn't try to fix it right away. I remember in Blown UP when he blows up Jill's driver licenses because he can't find any pictures of Jill because she "hid" all the photo albums. I wanted to go: "Who would do that and it wouldn't be Jill." Jill loved photo albums and was always trying to put pictures together. Yet, here she hid everything when Tim needed a picture, plus it was a surprise, all Tim had to do was not use the picture. Instead he goes; "It looks horrible, but yeah, let's just use it because I don't have any choice." Yet, he finds a nice photo of her later on and boy that is some photo studio in the mid 90s that can blow up a photo that fast. Similar to Tim messing up the ice fishing for Al by using the sanitize that smelled like saw dust. Constantly using it, I can understand, but it was more that they kept re doing the bait on the poles. Plus, Tim and Al were both constantly fishermen growing up. Al just did more ice fishing and yet none of them knew the smell of bait rule with fish? Also, no one else checked in on Al if Wilson said there were so many people ice fishing and had too many fish? Also, what did Tim do to get the heater to ignite like that? He punch holes in it? It was one of those times during the show where it was to paint Tim like an idiot instead of: "Oh, you know, this might not be a good idea and it's literally staring him in the face." Just like the bumping his head on the basement pipe over the course of the series. 

[andromeda331]

19 hours ago, readster said:

Something that really makes you wonder between Tim and Jill is when Tim really tries to do things for Jill and it not only goes wrong, but he doesn't try to fix it right away. I remember in Blown UP when he blows up Jill's driver licenses because he can't find any pictures of Jill because she "hid" all the photo albums. I wanted to go: "Who would do that and it wouldn't be Jill." Jill loved photo albums and was always trying to put pictures together. Yet, here she hid everything when Tim needed a picture, plus it was a surprise, all Tim had to do was not use the picture. Instead he goes; "It looks horrible, but yeah, let's just use it because I don't have any choice." Yet, he finds a nice photo of her later on and boy that is some photo studio in the mid 90s that can blow up a photo that fast. Similar to Tim messing up the ice fishing for Al by using the sanitize that smelled like saw dust. Constantly using it, I can understand, but it was more that they kept re doing the bait on the poles. Plus, Tim and Al were both constantly fishermen growing up. Al just did more ice fishing and yet none of them knew the smell of bait rule with fish? Also, no one else checked in on Al if Wilson said there were so many people ice fishing and had too many fish? Also, what did Tim do to get the heater to ignite like that? He punch holes in it? It was one of those times during the show where it was to paint Tim like an idiot instead of: "Oh, you know, this might not be a good idea and it's literally staring him in the face." Just like the bumping his head on the basement pipe over the course of the series. 

Yeah, that one made no sense given what we know of Jill. She'd have tons of albums full of pictures of her and her kids, her and Tim,  and of herself. That's not even including any pictures she'd have on display. It should have been easy to find a picture and quickly. Wedding pictures, pictures with each of her new babies, holidays, basically hundreds. Even with him forgetting he'd still have time to grab anyone of those.  I agree about the ice fishing. There's no way people who fish as much as Tim and Al do and have done their entire life wouldn't know about the smell.  Its like him hitting his head on the basement pipe every single time. There's no reason why he wouldn't have ducked every time after the first time got hit in the head or think that punching a bunch of holes ice fishing is a good idea or writing what each switch is for in pencil. Even if he had been dumb enough to do that he would have learned his lesson the first time he turned off the wrong switch. Then gotten a pen and wrote it more clearer. He's never once in the entire time they lived in that house  had to turn off a switch or had a fuse blow?   

[andromeda331]

One part I did like was how the show handled Brad and Randy with their first crushes and girlfriends. Both all nervous on their first dates. Brad needing a pep talk from his dad. Randy getting one from Wilson at the restaurant. Knowing the girl liked him because she punched him in the shoulder. I really liked that Lauren wasn't ready to date. That's not something you hear a lot especially on TV. Your suppose to be ready and if not you'd get mocked or worried about being mocked for being a baby. Teen girl don't really get told a lot that its okay not to be ready. But here was Lauren, who wasn't ready. She confident and explained why. I liked her later letting Randy know she was ready. Then him worried when he realized what the change in their relationship meant and asking his parents what that meant.  I wish we had gotten to see Mark on his first date and first girlfriend.   

[readster]

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

One part I did like was how the show handled Brad and Randy with their first crushes and girlfriends. Both all nervous on their first dates. Brad needing a pep talk from his dad. Randy getting one from Wilson at the restaurant. Knowing the girl liked him because she punched him in the shoulder. I really liked that Lauren wasn't ready to date. That's not something you hear a lot especially on TV. Your suppose to be ready and if not you'd get mocked or worried about being mocked for being a baby. Teen girl don't really get told a lot that its okay not to be ready. But here was Lauren, who wasn't ready. She confident and explained why. I liked her later letting Randy know she was ready. Then him worried when he realized what the change in their relationship meant and asking his parents what that meant.  I wish we had gotten to see Mark on his first date and first girlfriend.   

I agree, both Brad and Randy's first girlfriends felt very realistic. Even later on when Brad went out with Ashley. That was Brad knowing he had to act and actually had a serious relationship. Same with Randy with Lauren. She wasn't ready, but when she was they progressed pretty naturally. Even when Lauren was leaving for Costa Rica originally, they really said they loved each other and Randy was upset. Even when he returned at Christmas saying how it wasn't what he expected. That him and Lauren were still good, but they really couldn't spend much time together and he gets home and everything had changed too. Even Mark's first crush made sense, it didn't go right, which was nice because that was real too and when the series ended he said it best: "New school, new people, new girls." 

[readster]

Seeing the Cooking with Irma and the Dry Wall Episode, I don't get who Heidi was working for at times. She is dressed as the Tool Time Girl and then she is all in a chef suit and  hat and introducing Irma and had apparently been doing it for a while. I also wonder why would a cooking show have strictly women in the audience? Of course it also goes back to why Heidi had her own parking spot and was given more money if she was on two shows. 

[andromeda331]

11 hours ago, readster said:

Seeing the Cooking with Irma and the Dry Wall Episode, I don't get who Heidi was working for at times. She is dressed as the Tool Time Girl and then she is all in a chef suit and  hat and introducing Irma and had apparently been doing it for a while. I also wonder why would a cooking show have strictly women in the audience? Of course it also goes back to why Heidi had her own parking spot and was given more money if she was on two shows. 

I wondered why Heidi was there. At first I assumed what they probably wanted us to think the entire Tool Time staff filling in for the Irma staff but that makes no sense. Irma was the only one who was going to be away not Irma and her announcer. Where did her announcer go? In away it would be cool and cheap for them to use Heidi to do that for more then one show. Did Irma not have an announcer or assistant? I didn't think about it until last night's episode but if Irma didn't have an assistant then why not just have Al fill in? Of course if she did have an assistant why wouldn't she fill in for Irma? They could have given a quick line that the assistant and announcer both caught the flu which was why Irma needed Al, Tim and Heidi to fill in in addition to her going to meet her grandchild.  The episode where Tim decides to split up Brad and Randy, what exactly was Jill's plan? Tim tried to talk to both boys neither would tell him what was going on and returned to fighting. So he split them up. Jill gets all upset about him making a big decision without her (which she does all the time not that anyone ever points it out to her) but she gets mad because they didn't talk to the boys (which he tried) and talk to all three boys about switching rooms. How was she expecting that to go? For Randy and Mark to be totally cool with sharing a room with each other? Mark happy to give up his own room? Unless she let Tim build a third bedroom Randy and Mark were going to still ended up ticked off. Also weirdly in an episode or two later it sounds like Brad and Randy are in the same school even though Brad's the only one in junior high because how else would Ashley knows Beth likes Randy? How would they know each other?

[readster]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I wondered why Heidi was there. At first I assumed what they probably wanted us to think the entire Tool Time staff filling in for the Irma staff but that makes no sense. Irma was the only one who was going to be away not Irma and her announcer. Where did her announcer go? In away it would be cool and cheap for them to use Heidi to do that for more then one show. Did Irma not have an announcer or assistant? I didn't think about it until last night's episode but if Irma didn't have an assistant then why not just have Al fill in? Of course if she did have an assistant why wouldn't she fill in for Irma? They could have given a quick line that the assistant and announcer both caught the flu which was why Irma needed Al, Tim and Heidi to fill in in addition to her going to meet her grandchild.  The episode where Tim decides to split up Brad and Randy, what exactly was Jill's plan? Tim tried to talk to both boys neither would tell him what was going on and returned to fighting. So he split them up. Jill gets all upset about him making a big decision without her (which she does all the time not that anyone ever points it out to her) but she gets mad because they didn't talk to the boys (which he tried) and talk to all three boys about switching rooms. How was she expecting that to go? For Randy and Mark to be totally cool with sharing a room with each other? Mark happy to give up his own room? Unless she let Tim build a third bedroom Randy and Mark were going to still ended up ticked off. Also weirdly in an episode or two later it sounds like Brad and Randy are in the same school even though Brad's the only one in junior high because how else would Ashley knows Beth likes Randy? How would they know each other?

I just figured that Heidi worked between both shows. Of course this is never expanded on especially at the award show for Halloween. Heidi is there, but if Cooking with Irma was getting all these awards. Why wasn't Heidi getting them too? It's kind of confusing. As for Jill mad that Tim split the boys up and didn't let her in. Seriously, I didn't see it going much different. Randy only admitted what was really bothering him when they separation happened. Plus, as we saw, nothing really changed. They still got in fights, Mark was now upset since he was with Randy not in his own room. Problem with having more than one kid and you can't have separate rooms for them. They are going to fight more than usual especially when they get older. I mean both Jill and Tim admitted they had the same problem with their siblings since they were in the middle and not the oldest of their families. The problem is, they could have built a new room then and the writers didn't really do much except for 2 episodes later with Mark hoping to get his old room back. I think by they time we get around season 5, the writers realized that the boys were so much older and they could finally have Tim do something for a 3rd room. Which I think worked better when all the boys had their own room later on. They could be themselves, still fought and still hung out when they could. Looking back, it just makes Jill look like she just wanted to be the hero who came in and rescued the boys, when really. Nothing would have changed. 

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, readster said:

I just figured that Heidi worked between both shows. Of course this is never expanded on especially at the award show for Halloween. Heidi is there, but if Cooking with Irma was getting all these awards. Why wasn't Heidi getting them too? It's kind of confusing. As for Jill mad that Tim split the boys up and didn't let her in. Seriously, I didn't see it going much different. Randy only admitted what was really bothering him when they separation happened. Plus, as we saw, nothing really changed. They still got in fights, Mark was now upset since he was with Randy not in his own room. Problem with having more than one kid and you can't have separate rooms for them. They are going to fight more than usual especially when they get older. I mean both Jill and Tim admitted they had the same problem with their siblings since they were in the middle and not the oldest of their families. The problem is, they could have built a new room then and the writers didn't really do much except for 2 episodes later with Mark hoping to get his old room back. I think by they time we get around season 5, the writers realized that the boys were so much older and they could finally have Tim do something for a 3rd room. Which I think worked better when all the boys had their own room later on. They could be themselves, still fought and still hung out when they could. Looking back, it just makes Jill look like she just wanted to be the hero who came in and rescued the boys, when really. Nothing would have changed. 

That would make sense for Heidi to work for Cooking with Irma too. You'd think who ever hired her it would be for to announce and help for more then one show. Even more so given her popularity if their hoping to bring that to other shows. But yeah then she should be getting awards too. I love your comment about Jill wanting to look like the hero. I think that's exactly what she wanted to do. Nothing would have changed if she had been home with when Brad and Randy were fighting except that she would have been home. They still would have fought and Randy still wouldn't have admitted why he was mad at Brad. Even after learning it there's nothing really they can do to fix it their growing up and Brad's hitting the age where he'd rather hang out with his friends and girlfriend then spend all of his time with Randy like they used to. It would have made more sense to build the third bedroom which Jill is kind of insane for not doing. If you have kids sharing a room and yet still have an attic and basement, why wouldn't you just do that and cut out a lot of the fighting? But she didn't want to do that.  Which again is crazy. 

[readster]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

That would make sense for Heidi to work for Cooking with Irma too. You'd think who ever hired her it would be for to announce and help for more then one show. Even more so given her popularity if their hoping to bring that to other shows. But yeah then she should be getting awards too. I love your comment about Jill wanting to look like the hero. I think that's exactly what she wanted to do. Nothing would have changed if she had been home with when Brad and Randy were fighting except that she would have been home. They still would have fought and Randy still wouldn't have admitted why he was mad at Brad. Even after learning it there's nothing really they can do to fix it their growing up and Brad's hitting the age where he'd rather hang out with his friends and girlfriend then spend all of his time with Randy like they used to. It would have made more sense to build the third bedroom which Jill is kind of insane for not doing. If you have kids sharing a room and yet still have an attic and basement, why wouldn't you just do that and cut out a lot of the fighting? But she didn't want to do that.  Which again is crazy. 

It was really in season 3 we started seeing Jill having more of a "I'm right and I know better"attitude. Granted, it was always there, but you saw it more. The real pieces of it is when she is at the magazine more and doesn't like how Tim is handling things at home. They could have handled it more with Jill working that it's a classic: "Stayed at home and then re entered the working world and the kids didn't know what it was like to have both parents gone" scenario. However, that didn't work later on when Jill talked about her previous jobs when Bud first showed up on the show. I see it more that Jill worked before Brad was born. Then was off for a bit and then lost her job as a result since early 80s, woman really didn't have maternity leave then. My own mother would attest to that. Then was in between a few jobs until Randy was born and they moved into the house. I see Jill was really home for a few years after Mark was born. Tim was still a tool salesman for Binford. Since the time line was that Tool Time didn't start until two years before the series started, which would be around 1989. However, when Jill was working again, she got with a very: "I know better than you because I was home while you were working, but I can't be my mother." So, what happened to Jill? She turned around and started being like her father, with a take charge and never admit he was wrong. However, where Jill's family catered to Fred's demands. Tim and everyone kept telling Jill she was wrong and even pointed out when she was wrong and backed it up. Yet, she couldn't have that. She had to be right, plus when Jill went back to school, that ate up more time. I mean, home work, library assignments (no internet or online portfolios then), group assignments and we had Jill joining a book club, yet she gets mad when Tim isn't focusing on the boys more. I was glad by season 6 that stopped, because by then, the boys were so much older and you know, wanted to do things. Of course the Ohio trip, Jill gets mad that the boys don't want to hang with her anymore. 

[andromeda331]

45 minutes ago, readster said:

It was really in season 3 we started seeing Jill having more of a "I'm right and I know better"attitude. Granted, it was always there, but you saw it more. The real pieces of it is when she is at the magazine more and doesn't like how Tim is handling things at home. They could have handled it more with Jill working that it's a classic: "Stayed at home and then re entered the working world and the kids didn't know what it was like to have both parents gone" scenario. However, that didn't work later on when Jill talked about her previous jobs when Bud first showed up on the show. I see it more that Jill worked before Brad was born. Then was off for a bit and then lost her job as a result since early 80s, woman really didn't have maternity leave then. My own mother would attest to that. Then was in between a few jobs until Randy was born and they moved into the house. I see Jill was really home for a few years after Mark was born. Tim was still a tool salesman for Binford. Since the time line was that Tool Time didn't start until two years before the series started, which would be around 1989. However, when Jill was working again, she got with a very: "I know better than you because I was home while you were working, but I can't be my mother." So, what happened to Jill? She turned around and started being like her father, with a take charge and never admit he was wrong. However, where Jill's family catered to Fred's demands. Tim and everyone kept telling Jill she was wrong and even pointed out when she was wrong and backed it up. Yet, she couldn't have that. She had to be right, plus when Jill went back to school, that ate up more time. I mean, home work, library assignments (no internet or online portfolios then), group assignments and we had Jill joining a book club, yet she gets mad when Tim isn't focusing on the boys more. I was glad by season 6 that stopped, because by then, the boys were so much older and you know, wanted to do things. Of course the Ohio trip, Jill gets mad that the boys don't want to hang with her anymore. 

We really did. There were parts of it before season three but not as often. Then suddenly she was "always right and knew better" no matter what. Especially if she was wrong, and even on things that really shouldn't be big deals. She usually would end up making it a big deal. From then on she was always right and knew better and Tim was always wrong even when he wasn't. She became so used to blaming Tim for everything that went wrong even when stuff happened to other people she blamed him. Like Al proposing to Ilene on TV she blames Tim. How was that his fault? He had no idea Al was going to do that and immediately pointed out to Al what big mistake he just made. Same with the house. She tells Tim he'll have to take over house hold more. Which he does and yes he messed up a few times because he wasn't used doing household stuff and helping with the kids projects (ish he did help some) and Jill flipped out. What happened to her? Was she always this control freak, my way 'tude or did it come gradually? At first it just seems like she's a typical mom who's been home for awhile that she did everything and had her system but went she got a job it was hard for her to let go. I agree she probably lost her job after Brad was born or left because of no maternity leave. My mom didn't have it either. She left her last job when I was born and got a seasonal job at a company she ended up being at for decades. I kind of think that was the last time Jill had a job because of how close in age Brad and Randy was, maybe she had a job or part time afterwards but I could also see her not working until after Mark was born and busy with three young sons. Plus we do know that before Tool Time, Tim was on the road a lot so it makes sense that she didn't work choosing to stay home with the kids. It makes sense but then in Bud's first job Jill reveals she's lost every job she's ever had. Every job? What happened that she lost every job? Was she bad at every job? Or did she have that she's always right attitude and it rubbed her bosses the wrong way? I don't get how the writers or who ever thought making Jill like that was a good idea. It really doesn't make her come off great. And it makes it hard to like her when she won't admit she's wrong when she always makes Tim do. She pretty much made her family cater to her needs. She wanted them to do what she wanted them too. Then always got mad when they didn't. How many times did she get mad at Tim for not saying the right thing or knowing how she's feeling? She doesn't want to tell him she wants him to always know. She takes him out to dinner or romantic weekends during big sports events and gets mad when it doesn't go her way. She gets mad when Tim wouldn't followed her system of taking care of the kids, cleaning things with the right sponge. He had to point out to her that he did do things right. Even thought it wasn't her way. Even when he did things her way like in splitting up Brad and Randy, she was still mad. He did exactly what she suggested talking to the boys, that didn't get anywhere so he split it up. She's still mad because she didn't get to be the hero. Why does she always have to be right? Why does she always have to know everything? Why does Tim always have to be wrong? So she wouldn't end up like her mother? But she never stopped realize that she was just like her father? Even when she sort of realizes it late in the series she doesn't do anything to change it. You'd also think she'd be more upset and freaked out by that. But she really isn't. 

[readster]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

 Plus we do know that before Tool Time, Tim was on the road a lot so it makes sense that she didn't work choosing to stay home with the kids. It makes sense but then in Bud's first job Jill reveals she's lost every job she's ever had. Every job? What happened that she lost every job? Was she bad at every job? Or did she have that she's always right attitude and it rubbed her bosses the wrong way? I don't get how the writers or who ever thought making Jill like that was a good idea. It really doesn't make her come off great. And it makes it hard to like her when she won't admit she's wrong when she always makes Tim do. She pretty much made her family cater to her needs. She wanted them to do what she wanted them too. Then always got mad when they didn't. How many times did she get mad at Tim for not saying the right thing or knowing how she's feeling? She doesn't want to tell him she wants him to always know. She takes him out to dinner or romantic weekends during big sports events and gets mad when it doesn't go her way. She gets mad when Tim wouldn't followed her system of taking care of the kids, cleaning things with the right sponge. He had to point out to her that he did do things right. Even thought it wasn't her way. Even when he did things her way like in splitting up Brad and Randy, she was still mad. He did exactly what she suggested talking to the boys, that didn't get anywhere so he split it up. She's still mad because she didn't get to be the hero. Why does she always have to be right? Why does she always have to know everything? Why does Tim always have to be wrong? So she wouldn't end up like her mother? But she never stopped realize that she was just like her father? Even when she sort of realizes it late in the series she doesn't do anything to change it. You'd also think she'd be more upset and freaked out by that. But she really isn't. 

Yes and even during the final two seasons. It was talked more on how Jill becoming a psychologist would be the first REAL career she had outside the magazine. Point out to classmate she hung around in the last two seasons and even to Wilson a few times. We were just lead to believe she couldn't hold a job down. However, why? The magazine kick just didn't make sense by then Jill had been there for two years and lost her job because some blonde with big boobs and a PhD got hired. Which makes no sense? Waitress, I could see because those are large turn overs when managers take over or you are top one year and down another year. Budget cuts happen from lost of business or higher salaries. I lost two jobs in the last three years due to budget, my performances were stellar and my former superiors gave me glowing reviews for job interviews, but it came down to paying me a higher price or dividing it up and doing it cheaper. Three jobs about 14 years ago, two I really screwed up with. I lost them and it was my fault, the last was due to being blamed for someone else's performance, which I attested was not me. They gave the other person the benefit of the doubt because they were their longer. Then when they fired me, not even a week passed and they saw that the same problem was happening and finally realized, I was right and the other person was lazy. However, they didn't bother calling me back and apologizing. I found out a month later from my mother who knew one of the managers and she was not happy with how they treated me, but they didn't want to admit they were wrong and did nothing and told my mom to tell me they were sorry. 

  I get shows do this over the course of a series, they go long and writers either don't pay attention to previous episodes or they just hype up a characters traits. Alan on Two and a Half Men, Diane or Carla on Cheers. Emily on Gilmore Girls, ect. Some shows catch and go: "Yeah, we need to stop doing that." Big Bang Theory is a grand example as they ended up having characters own up to their issues and even wrote things to fix them. Hodge is a grand example and so is Sheldon. Home Improvement fell into that trap and Jill was the main character who really became a very hateful character by the end of the series. Tim and Al got into some major personality issues and Wilson started being oblivious to life outside his house to the point you wonder how he lived to that point in his life. 

[andromeda331]

On ‎8‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 10:51 AM, readster said:

Yes and even during the final two seasons. It was talked more on how Jill becoming a psychologist would be the first REAL career she had outside the magazine. Point out to classmate she hung around in the last two seasons and even to Wilson a few times. We were just lead to believe she couldn't hold a job down. However, why? The magazine kick just didn't make sense by then Jill had been there for two years and lost her job because some blonde with big boobs and a PhD got hired. Which makes no sense? Waitress, I could see because those are large turn overs when managers take over or you are top one year and down another year. Budget cuts happen from lost of business or higher salaries. I lost two jobs in the last three years due to budget, my performances were stellar and my former superiors gave me glowing reviews for job interviews, but it came down to paying me a higher price or dividing it up and doing it cheaper. Three jobs about 14 years ago, two I really screwed up with. I lost them and it was my fault, the last was due to being blamed for someone else's performance, which I attested was not me. They gave the other person the benefit of the doubt because they were their longer. Then when they fired me, not even a week passed and they saw that the same problem was happening and finally realized, I was right and the other person was lazy. However, they didn't bother calling me back and apologizing. I found out a month later from my mother who knew one of the managers and she was not happy with how they treated me, but they didn't want to admit they were wrong and did nothing and told my mom to tell me they were sorry.  

I'm really sorry that happened to you. That's really horrible. I've had two sets of medical problems that caused me to lose jobs because of attendance. The first problem I'd be sick every three or six months and could last anywhere from a week to two months. It made it really hard to keep a job until I finally got a diagnosis. I'm now unable to work due to the second problem my current doctor really is trying. But that's the think about Jill's work history we don't know why she lost every job she's ever had. They never tell us if she was laid off every time or what. I lean towards being fired because most people I know who've been laid off say they have rather then saying they lost their job. Her losing her job at the magazine still makes no sense. Unless its a medical magazine there would be no need for it for a PH.D. Its funny because the magazine job can't be one Jill references in the Bud episode because those were jobs she learned she lost over coffee and that's now how she lost that job. I'm not sure if restaurants would go to that much trouble to fire their waitress. They end up having her go back to school to become a therapist while ironically constantly showing why Jill shouldn't be a therapist.      
 

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I get shows do this over the course of a series, they go long and writers either don't pay attention to previous episodes or they just hype up a characters traits. Alan on Two and a Half Men, Diane or Carla on Cheers. Emily on Gilmore Girls, ect. Some shows catch and go: "Yeah, we need to stop doing that." Big Bang Theory is a grand example as they ended up having characters own up to their issues and even wrote things to fix them. Hodge is a grand example and so is Sheldon. Home Improvement fell into that trap and Jill was the main character who really became a very hateful character by the end of the series. Tim and Al got into some major personality issues and Wilson started being oblivious to life outside his house to the point you wonder how he lived to that point in his life.

 

Oh, I know they don't and it drives me crazy. Its so common and yes I realize they are filming 20 or so episodes a season but I still think they should be pay attention to what they've written before or make really good notes. Small stuff doesn't bug me as much. But big stuff like Paige on Charmed asking how they vanquished the Source when she was there all three times. Or not remembering the names of Jill's sisters or Tim's brothers. Why don't they write that stuff down and keep it somewhere everyone can see it. Its really great to have characters down up to their own issues. That's really one of the reasons to watch shows wanting to watch Lorelai and her parents work through their issues and end up close again. It was really wonderful watching Lane and her mother able to overcome their issues and end up having a great relationship. There were still bumps but they worked them out. On Home Improvement it was really nice to see Tim and Al become close. The boys each develop different personalities even if Mark's was the longest. Everyone got better and/or more developed but Jill got worse. But they ended up making Jill so horrible. A judgmental hypocrite who always had to be right and refused to admit she was wrong, always blamed everyone else, and looked down on everyone. When they go so far with one character its hard to see how they don't notice it? They don't because they really seem to think she's this smart intelligent woman who will make an excellent therapist or it wouldn't be so tilted. That's not what they show us. They show her meddling in with Randy's girlfriend's parents marriage despite only meeting the dad and only hearing a couple comments, breaking confidence about Heidi's husband, expecting Tim to talk to Scott, looking down at Jeff with her sister and admitting in that episode she looks down Tim's entire family, dragging her husband off to group therapy and then getting mad because everyone sided with Tim in that story she told (while omitting a big part of it), thinking her son was forcing his girlfriend to cook and clean for him, thinking another son wanted to murder them because he was making a horror movie? 

[readster]

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The first problem I'd be sick every three or six months and could last anywhere from a week to two months. It made it really hard to keep a job until I finally got a diagnosis. I'm now unable to work due to the second problem my current doctor really is trying.

Oh man, I'm so sorry. My stepfather dealt with a lot of chronic medical issues over the years himself. He has gone on disability and can't do any sort of retirement for another 5 years and he is a war vet.

 

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But they ended up making Jill so horrible. A judgmental hypocrite who always had to be right and refused to admit she was wrong, always blamed everyone else, and looked down on everyone. When they go so far with one character its hard to see how they don't notice it? They don't because they really seem to think she's this smart intelligent woman who will make an excellent therapist or it wouldn't be so tilted. That's not what they show us. They show her meddling in with Randy's girlfriend's parents marriage despite only meeting the dad and only hearing a couple comments, breaking confidence about Heidi's husband, expecting Tim to talk to Scott, looking down at Jeff with her sister and admitting in that episode she looks down Tim's entire family, dragging her husband off to group therapy and then getting mad because everyone sided with Tim in that story she told (while omitting a big part of it), thinking her son was forcing his girlfriend to cook and clean for him, thinking another son wanted to murder them because he was making a horror movie? 

Yeah, that's exactly it. Tim to even Wilson has traits that got old after a while, but it never went that far like with Jill. As you said, they had her go back to school and then showed us every reason right up to the end, why she SHOULDN'T be a psychologist. Truth be told, you don't have to be in the medical profession to have a PhD. Those are usually M.D if you are like in neurology or something. You can have a PhD in: Political Science, Education, History, Culinary, ect. Just depends what your specialty is and where you focus. However, from what we got from Jill's job in season 2-3. She was at a compost site one time, doing plastic surgery research and at one time was looking into small down businesses. So, what the hell her replacement for the blonde big boobed Doctorate of Philosophy was doing at the magazine, who the hell knows? I mean getting a degree from Harvard especially in a PhD program, that is no easy feet and sounds like she was just attractive. However, it sounded like outside some co-workers and the president, the VP didn't even know who Jill was when she told her father he couldn't take his book to him because the VP didn't know who she was. Which was more of a sincere replay instead of another excuse. I'm the teacher, the Superintendent, President of the Board and three other members know who I am and vice versa. However, there are two I have never talked to and they have no idea who I am. 

  As the writers and the progress of Jill's character, I think they just did it where they needed their story to work and it just made sense. It was like the writers of Two and a Half Men, they had to keep Alan there and it was either have Judith sucking him dry of all money and then they married her off to Herb, they brought in another person. Then got him married again and had her drain all his money. Then divorce, then have him accidentally burn down his girlfriend's house and take money from him there. Then they ran out of excuses and just said: "Let's make him a mooch. I mean, by now, he can't run a practice, he is out of money." You want to go: "Where do you think a doctor gets his money from?" Like with Jill, after Lillian grilled Jill after her hiestrcemy and blaming Tim for anything. I wanted her to go: "For someone who didn't want to be like your father, you turn right into him, he had to be right and damn everyone else. Even if the Earth split open in front of him he still think it was a sunny day." 

[andromeda331]

22 hours ago, readster said:

Oh man, I'm so sorry. My stepfather dealt with a lot of chronic medical issues over the years himself. He has gone on disability and can't do any sort of retirement for another 5 years and he is a war vet.

Thanks. I'm sorry to hear about your stepfather. 

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Yeah, that's exactly it. Tim to even Wilson has traits that got old after a while, but it never went that far like with Jill. As you said, they had her go back to school and then showed us every reason right up to the end, why she SHOULDN'T be a psychologist. Truth be told, you don't have to be in the medical profession to have a PhD. Those are usually M.D if you are like in neurology or something. You can have a PhD in: Political Science, Education, History, Culinary, ect. Just depends what your specialty is and where you focus. However, from what we got from Jill's job in season 2-3. She was at a compost site one time, doing plastic surgery research and at one time was looking into small down businesses. So, what the hell her replacement for the blonde big boobed Doctorate of Philosophy was doing at the magazine, who the hell knows? I mean getting a degree from Harvard especially in a PhD program, that is no easy feet and sounds like she was just attractive. However, it sounded like outside some co-workers and the president, the VP didn't even know who Jill was when she told her father he couldn't take his book to him because the VP didn't know who she was. Which was more of a sincere replay instead of another excuse. I'm the teacher, the Superintendent, President of the Board and three other members know who I am and vice versa. However, there are two I have never talked to and they have no idea who I am.

That's true you can get a PH.D in those fields I'm still not sure why her magazine would need one. It sounded more like general stories instead of specific ones. But if the VP didn't know who Jill was others probably didn't either and if the PH.D was from Harvard I can see why that might impress who ever promoted her especially if they didn't really know Jill. Who knows companies make stupid decisions all the time when it comes to hiring and promotions.

 

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As the writers and the progress of Jill's character, I think they just did it where they needed their story to work and it just made sense. It was like the writers of Two and a Half Men, they had to keep Alan there and it was either have Judith sucking him dry of all money and then they married her off to Herb, they brought in another person. Then got him married again and had her drain all his money. Then divorce, then have him accidentally burn down his girlfriend's house and take money from him there. Then they ran out of excuses and just said: "Let's make him a mooch. I mean, by now, he can't run a practice, he is out of money." You want to go: "Where do you think a doctor gets his money from?" Like with Jill, after Lillian grilled Jill after her hiestrcemy and blaming Tim for anything. I wanted her to go: "For someone who didn't want to be like your father, you turn right into him, he had to be right and damn everyone else. Even if the Earth split open in front of him he still think it was a sunny day." 

 

I've wondered if that was it or they were trying to follow Everyone Loves Raymond success after that show decided to make Debra horrible and they got high ratings. Or maybe they just really liked the character a little too much? It is weird that she's the only one who gets worse as the years pass but never gets called on it. You don't write a character tilted unless there's a reason. Its really too bad. If Jill was called on her stuff as much as Tim and had to apologize it would make her more likeable. It would make sense. If they showed her mess ups in psychology as that mistakes or even learning mistakes that would make sense. It would be really hard to know a friend of yours husband's cheated on her and not be able to say anything. And the one with Michelle's parents wouldn't have been so bad if she realized she messed up and learned from that. That she shouldn't make snap judgments especially when she only heard a couple things. How great would it be if Lillian had said exactly that? Told her daughter she had turned into her father? It was really nice when Lillian called Jill on her behavior after the surgery. For once she wasn't able to get away with her behavior and had to apologize. That's what that character needed. Everyone else got called out when they were wrong. She should have too. One episode I don't get is the one where Tim freaks out after Harry has a heart attack. Everyone acts like Tim's making a big deal about it. Which he is but watching a friend having a heart attack is scary. It does make you think how that could be you. Even more so if you lost your own father at a young age. It makes sense but no one else seems to think it does. Wilson ends up helping Tim by telling him about his own heart attack. But I thought it was really weird that no one really seemed to understand why Tim was freaked out.  

[readster]

Watching the various Wilson's House episodes. I just realized, for a place that had so many rooms, a huge basement, the hallways were way to narrow. Seriously, when Wilson tried to sell his house, it was almost claustrophobic with the entire Taylor Family. Tim and Wilson were by the Tropic Room, Wilson almost has to get in front of Tim to tell Mozart to release him. When he goes to Brad and Randy by the mask. I thought Wilson was going to crush the two of them and just squeezed by Jill and Mark. Later on when the guys were all over watching the football game. You could see when Harry gets up to leave, he looks like he is going to get stuck in the hall way. Plus, when Wilson first dates Judith, looks like she is Alice in Wonderland at one moment when she is coming in. What were the set designers thinking?

[Was-MArsenault]

Can I have some help with a question here?

There's an episode of the show called Slip Sleddin' Away and one of the plots mentions that Brad is thinking of stopping saxophone lessons. Whenever Brad played music, was the saxophone playing done by the actor who played Brad himself, or was it done by another person?

Was Brad's saxophone playing real or not?