Philizabeth, aka Мишежда

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think that's the difference though.  Some see Philip and Elizabeth as a great love story.  I just don't, and haven't for quite a while.  I see a lot of dysfunction, and Philip more of an addict.  In many stories this would be reversed, the man would be the demanding abusive partner, and some would have sympathy for the women, some would just be frustrated that a bright woman continued in a relationship and life that literally made their partner miserable and feeling sick all the time.  Philip's words.

But even if he wasn't in love with Elizabeth I think he'd feel understood and known by her in ways he would never be by a woman he met as a defector living undercover--who he wouldn't be able to tell any of that. It would be saying good-bye to a true self for good, really, at least in terms of connections to other people.

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Their main boss, the head of a very prestigious division in the KGB was definitely in the coup.  Claudia, with all of her life long connections was.  I'm pretty sure Arkady did say he didn't know how many others from the KGB were, but also I got the impression their were others.  I don't feel like looking up dialogue or watching again though, it's possible I am wrong.  I don't think so though.

Yes, I think there were others, but I don't think it was the whole KGB. That's why the whole thing was secret and Arkady, whose loyalties were clear, was still head of Directorate S. There were people on the other side too, wherever they were. Both the coup and anti-coup spies were working in the shadows.

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Philip wanted to defect in the pilot but didn't. He said to William that he wanted to live a normal life but not without Elizabeth, but that's not the same as defecting. A defector can't live a normal life. Ever.

In general, I believe the deeds, not the words, tell what a person really wants. One can dream about all kinds of things, f.ex. becoming an author or a NHL player, but if one isn't ready to do what the goal demands, those dreams aren't real. Also, one can believe that one is such and such person (f.ex. brave, helpful, faithful), but it's only the deeds that show if one's self-image is true.

It doesn't really matter what choices Philip would have made if he hadn't loved Elizabeth. One always makes one's choices in the certain circumstances and many times one must chose between two values that both are important, like Stan, Nina and Oleg did.      

 

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That depends on how you define happiness.

Before the and during war our schoolchildren sang a song based on the Roman proverb "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori". Although we know that the death in the war is far from beautiful, physically it's mostly really horrible, I still believe that it's different to die if death has a meaning. If Philip would be executed in the USSR, he would have an inner satisfaction that by chosing to help Gorbatchov he had done his utmost for his country. 

Instead, as a defector Philip wouldn't help to feel guilt and shame for betraying his county and people he had worked with as well as not helping his country when it needed him most. 

Of course it would be different if Philip were an ideological opponent like the agricultural specialist Alexei Morozov, but he wasn't. He was a Russian patriot at heart. And a patriot doesn't ask if some other country is better than his own or would offer him more, but want to work to make his country better.

These two quotes really encapsulate how Philip comes across to me, particular the part about looking at words rather than deeds. His actions always to me seem to show a really consistent value system with Elizabeth being a part of that, no matter what he says at different times. (I think this show is particularly clear about doing that with characters, though with some of them--Paige, especially for me--it's not always so easy to figure out exactly what's at the bottom of the consistent choice.) It took so little to get him to do things for Russia and Elizabeth and so much to get him to make a move to that alternate American life--if one could get him to do it at all. Or hold tightly to the bits of it he had.

Edited December 23, 2018 by sistermagpie

[CherithCutestory]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

A coup made up of the same people IRL happens in less than 3 years.  Gorbachev had almost no power when this episode happened IRL.  Arkady is an underling, his boss was in the Coup.

15 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

And it fails again in three years. 

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They showed us NOTHING.  Not one story had a real ending.  Not one.  Except Claudia who said she would fight on, and that certainly would mean eliminating the couple who fucked everything up.

 

They gave us an ending. The Centre, far from killing them, help them escape to the USSR when they could have shot them on the plane. Paige and Henry stayed behind. It may not be the ending you were hoping for. But it doesn't mean we can create our own canon. 

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Elizabeth asked about his son.  I didn't comment on that.  I commented on the way the writers delved deeply into Elizabeth's family and mother, and Philip and Elizabeth discussed her mother multiple times.  Not once did she ask about his. 

 

First,  the fact that she asks him about his son AND tries to get him out of Afghanistan completely undermines this point even if it were true. SHe clearly cares about his life and they showed different but similar ways to show that. But she talked with him about his family and childhood multiple times. And in those conversations she was invested and asked questions. Not in order of airing:

When Elizabeth calls Philip at the travel agency in season just to tell him she misses him, Philip and Elizabeth discuss his memories about his father bringing things like food or clothes home. (She wonders if they are happy memories then. And he can't be sure. So, she asked if he brought home other kinds of things. And Philip doesn't remember. The undercurrent is clearly why would a logger have access to these things to bring home.) 

Elizabeth is the only person Philip tells that he killed his bully after beating around the bush in telling the story at Est and to Martha. At first she thinks it's good that he fought back hard but then is sympathetic when she realizes he killed him.

Philip tells Elizabeth his mother used to make a "soup" with onions that was really just hot water. 

Philip tells Elizabeth that the people in their town hated him and his brother for no reason. Elizabeth asks if the boys who bullied him (she remembers this from a past conversation and brings it up) were the children of those people. He says some of them were. She doesn't follow up with the obvious conclusion to spare his feelings. (That he wasn't just targeted by gangs but that those people didn't like them for a reason.) In that conversation Philip mentions his brother. And Elizabeth clearly already knew he had one in context. So, they have discussed his family much more in depth. 

After Gabriel tells Philip his father was a guard at a prison camp he goes and tells Elizabeth about it. He says his mother never told him and she must not have liked it. 

That is about as much airtime as she and Philip spend discussing Elizabeth's mother, if not more. And Philip never asked about that either. She always volunteered it. It seems like more because we also get scenes of Elizabeth listening to the tapes from her mother. And Philip doesn't seem to give a damn about any family he left behind.

Elizabeth was close to her mother. Philip thinks both his parents were total strangers (the literal words he used.) He clearly wasn't close to either of them. So, the scenes discussing her dying mother were more impacting and emotional. But that she didn't ask a very specific question (neither did he) doesn't change that she spent time with him going over his past and the context shows she had done so off screen too. Since she knew he had a brother, knew he had thought his father was a logger, knew where he grew up.

It may seem incongruous but Elizabeth is just a much, much more sentimental person than Philip. He's more emotional and loving in the now. But she is more sentimental. So her memories of home are more impacting and memorable. But there actually aren't that much more of them in the show. 

 

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

No, he would not have been, he would be nothing like the Bystrovs or Timochev, he would be in protective custody and living under a new name and identity.  The FBI, in reality, was EXTREMELY good at accomplishing that.  It was one thing even the KGB respected and admired, how well they hid people.

 

Not in this show. He'd be dead in days. Not to mention the fact that Paige was terrible at hiding this spy thing. So, she'd have given them up quickly even if it did work out. 

And, again, he had very little useful information since he was siloed and didn't know anyone else's name (including Elizabeth's until season 1) to give and killed a great many US citizens. Stan would have killed him if the KGB didn't. 

Elizabeth is a very flawed character. But criticizing her for not defecting against her country is deeply unfair. She didn't force Mischa to join. He knew it wasn't the kind of job you just quit. She told him to take a break (didn't "let" him it was her idea). She did what she could to mitigate the pain from the job he chose. You don't get to just betray your country because things are hard. 

It would be like criticizing Stan for refusing to defect to the USSR to save Nina. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[Umbelina]

Defecting to Russia where VERY VERY powerful people in the KGB, the military, and the government now want them DEAD is no happy ending. 

Again, I see there relationship as incredibly damaging and destructive for Philip.  I do wonder how people would feel if these roles were reversed.  Being "miserable all the time" and "feeling like shit all the time" doesn't feel or resemble "love" to me.  That's addiction, not love.

Also, defection was mentioned SEVERAL times in the show, not just in the first episode.

I understand that some see this as a great love story.  I did at first too.  The longer it went on though, as Philip got progressively more powerless and more miserable, as Elizabeth even allowed their daughter to be rude and dismissive toward him?   No.  That's not "love" in anyway I describe it.

Philip needed a real shrink. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Philip tells Elizabeth that the people in their town hated him and his brother for no reason. Elizabeth asks if the boys who bullied him (she remembers this from a past conversation and brings it up) were the children of those people. He says some of them were. She doesn't follow up with the obvious conclusion to spare his feelings. (That he wasn't just targeted by gangs but that those people didn't like them for a reason.) In that conversation Philip mentions his brother. And Elizabeth clearly already knew he had one in context. So, they have discussed his family much more in depth. 

This is a nitpick, but I think Philip actually said he  had no idea if the bullies were the children of the men who hated them--it wasn't the whole town, but specific "low-lifes" who glared at them. But from Elizabeth's pov it's the same--he says he's been having these memories and she tries to help him make sense of them. She suggests he talk to Gabriel, knowing it's important for him to know.

Also, I don't think when Philip said his parents were strangers he meant he wasn't close to them. His father died when he was 6 but that meant something to him. And he spoke about his mother with affection with a camera shot that seemed to suggest he sees some of her in Elizabeth. Elizabeth was I think more likely to do that because she was more tied to the person she was as a kid and it often directly related to who she was now. For instance, when she thinks about recruiting Paige, she naturally puts it in context of her own mother not hesitating to tell her to join up. Her feelings about that might be more complicated than she's aware of, but one of those emotions are surely that she wants to live up to her mother's strength. If Philip ever had thoughts like that we didn't know about them. I think Philip's line about his parents being strangers is meant to parallel his relationship with his own kids--they love him and are very affectionate toward him. They're close. But in many ways their parents are strangers--especially to Henry, who's always been very close to Philip.

2 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Elizabeth is the only person Philip tells that he killed his bully after beating around the bush in telling the story at Est and to Martha. At first she thinks it's good that he fought back hard but then is sympathetic when she realizes he killed him.

Yes, not only does he not beat around the bush but he doesn't have to elaborate. She's not going to say, "But couldn't you have gone to a teacher?" or whatever. It reminds me of the fight they have about EST where Elizabeth asks if EST is really helping him because he looks terrible--I had to agree with her there. There's ways where I think it was good but Philip also tended to wallow in the guilt once he got going. If Henry had been in that situation at 10 no way would Philip have seen those teenagers as child victims!

2 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

Elizabeth is a very flawed character. But criticizing her for not defecting against her country is deeply unfair. She didn't force Mischa to join. He knew it wasn't the kind of job you just quit. She told him to take a break (didn't "let" him it was her idea). She did what she could to mitigate the pain from the job he chose. You don't get to just betray your country because things are hard. 

I honestly think he counted on her for that, just as she counted on him to push her to access the side of her that was loving. Also, as a parallel to her telling him to take a break rather than letting him, she was letting him defect in the pilot. When Philip kills Timoshev Elizabeth has just told him to take him to the Americans and do what he wants. Not out of love for him, of course. I I think she felt hopeless at what she saw happening and at realizing that killing Timoshev wouldn't help that feeling. Philip makes the decision to kill Timoshev and reject defection. That, to me, is one of those consistent choices that shows his priorities. Whenever she gives him her blessing to do something like that he wants the opposite!

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Also, defection was mentioned SEVERAL times in the show, not just in the first episode.

I honestly don't remember it ever being mentioned except in the pilot.

[CherithCutestory]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

  Being "miserable all the time" and "feeling like shit all the time" doesn't feel or resemble "love" to me.

He was talking about the job, which she encouraged him to leave, not her. 

No reasonable person is expected to commit high treason to make their spouse happier. 

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Also, defection was mentioned SEVERAL times in the show, not just in the first episode.

 

I'm doing a rewatch now and I can't remember one time where Philip suggests defecting to the US after the pilot. It was brought up in other contexts, of course, (the possibility of Nina defecting, Philip thinking Elizabeth told that he wanted to defect) but never as something Philip was considering doing. Philip suggests fleeing to Russia after Pastor Tim finds out, he seriously wants to go back to Russia after William is caught (and Gabriel suggests it), and then obviously tries to flee back to Russia in Season 5. None of those times did he suggest defecting to the US instead. 

And throughout most of the series Philip is actually quite patriotic. He never questions the right to be in Afghanistan. Horrified at the deaths of the men on the sub. Horrified at the prospect of Americans having bio-weapons and of them poisoning the wheat. He believed in what he was doing much of the time until the fifth season. Even if it made him feel like shit. And his final acts in season 6 were VERY patriotic. He chose his country over even Elizabeth. That's not a man considering defection. 

I am not sure I believe he would ever be OK with defection as he developed. The characters in the pilot weren't really fully formed. (Note it's Elizabeth who was horrified at the idea of the kids being dragged into this in the pilot. Obviously a big shift in character comes later.)

 

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Defecting to Russia where VERY VERY powerful people in the KGB, the military, and the government now want them DEAD is no happy ending. 

 

They are murderers (Philip as much as Elizabeth, make no mistake). They don't deserve a happy ending. Philip doesn't deserve one anymore than Elizabeth. He still killed. He still ruined lives. Of course it isn't a happy ending. Nothing would have been. They still have to live with what they've done the rest of their lives. No matter where they are they still have enemies. 

But he was able to save his country, he's back in Russia, which is what he's wanted for a couple of seasons, and he has Elizabeth, whom he clearly loves even if it isn't a love story. So, I think he's relatively happy with the result except for losing his kids. Of course, he will miss the USA  (I think it's plausible that Elizabeth could miss it more than him though. At least he loves hockey.) Of course, losing the kids is devastating. But he gets to be himself now. 

What Philip wanted more than anything was to live honestly. That's what EST was all about for him. Living another kind of lie under witness protection (if it were possible which I seriously doubt) isn't what he wanted either. 

Edited December 23, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[Umbelina]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I honestly don't remember it ever being mentioned except in the pilot.

We've been through this before.  I didn't say that PHILIP always said it.  Elizabeth said it a few times to him, for example, in the episode where Gabe nearly dies and Philip tackles William and spits in his face, and they all think Elizabeth may be dying.  SHE says for him to keep the kids in the USA, and be Americans, like he always wanted.  More, but I'm not going to look it up.

3 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

But he was able to save his country, he's back in Russia, which is what he's wanted for a couple of seasons, and he has Elizabeth, whom he clearly loves even if it isn't a love story. So, I think he's relatively happy with the result except for losing his kids. Of course, he will miss the USA  (I think it's plausible that Elizabeth could miss it more than him though. At least he loves hockey.) Of course, losing the kids is devastating. But he gets to be himself now. 

His country will fall completely in very short order.  He may had DELAYED it, but he didn't save anything.  Actually if the Coup had succeeded?  The USSR would probably still be around.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

We've been through this before.  I didn't say that PHILIP always said it.  Elizabeth said it a few times to him, for example, in the episode where Gabe nearly dies and Philip tackles William and spits in his face, and they all think Elizabeth may be dying.  SHE says for him to keep the kids in the USA, and be Americans, like he always wanted.  More, but I'm not going to look it up.

His country will fall completely in very short order.  He may had DELAYED it, but he didn't save anything.  Actually if the Coup had succeeded?  The USSR would probably still be around.

That Elizabeth said it, shows only what she thouht. She wasn't right in other matters, f.ex. when she suspected that Philip wanted rather live with Martha. What Philip really wanted is seen only how he acted.

The Soviet Union collapsed, but Philip wasn't a Soviet person in heart. He was a Russian patriot and most Russians live now much better than they ever did during the Soviet age.   

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

And throughout most of the series Philip is actually quite patriotic. He never questions the right to be in Afghanistan. Horrified at the deaths of the men on the sub. Horrified at the prospect of Americans having bio-weapons and of them poisoning the wheat. He believed in what he was doing much of the time until the fifth season. Even if it made him feel like shit. And his final acts in season 6 were VERY patriotic. He chose his country over even Elizabeth. That's not a man considering defection. 

That's how I see it.

Philip felt guilty of killing (especially) innocent bystanders, he was tired of using people (especally Martha and Kimmy) and he could no more trust his superiors tell him the truth about the operations. But those weren't different traits that British characters of John le Carré or Len Deigton felt. 

[CherithCutestory]

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

We've been through this before.  I didn't say that PHILIP always said it.  Elizabeth said it a few times to him, for example, in the episode where Gabe nearly dies and Philip tackles William and spits in his face, and they all think Elizabeth may be dying.  SHE says for him to keep the kids in the USA, and be Americans, like he always wanted.  More, but I'm not going to look it up.

Sure, because Elizabeth is always a totally sane and rational person to rely on for accurate descriptions of reality. Elizabeth also genuinely believes killing an old woman will make the world a better place. Elizabeth also genuinely believes Paige can be a spy working for the State Department without ever having to be exposed to the bad stuff like killing or sleeping around. Elizabeth also genuinely believes the worldwide workers' revolution is just around the corner just as long as she keeps sleeping with randos for scraps of information. Elizabeth also genuinely believed her kids couldn't smell smoke on her. She's intelligent, she's capable, she's an idealist who genuinely believes she's doing her part to save the world, she does love her family (even if she isn't great at showing it) but she's a crazy person. Let's not suggest Elizabeth Jennings has a firm grip on reality.

By contrast, Philip is always honest with himself and others (unless he can't be for his job and even then the reason he was such a good spy is he was still as emotionally honest with his marks as he could be). He is a realist even when it hurts. And in Philip's assessment he wouldn't want to be an American without her. And he has shown little interest in defecting even if it was with her since the Pilot. Who are we going to believe when it comes to Philip's feelings on the topic? A man who is honest and real with himself even when it's painful? Or a woman who lives in a constant state of delusion?

Now one could easily argue Philip shouldn't be with a crazy person, that's a totally justifiable argument. I'd say he knows how nuts she is more than anyone and he still made his choice. But agree to disagree there. But it's tough to say she knows what he wants better than he does.

That's what Elizabeth thought he wanted. It's not what PHILIP said he wanted. He made it pretty clear he didn't want any of that without her. Now that may be dysfunctional as heck but it doesn't make it any less true. And it isn't as insane as it sounds. Because Philip did miss home and did miss his life there. And she was the only connection to that. There isn't anyone in the world that could understand him like Elizabeth. Not because Soul Mate or True Love or whatever ridiculous concept. But, literally, she's the only person who would get his very unique life even other illegals wouldn't get some of the aspects of being Philip Jennings. He says this unequivocally to Sandra when they discuss EST. He could never be happy living a lie. Only around Elizabeth was he not. Other men (and women) wouldn't need someone who gets it all. Stan would be perfectly happy without that. But Philip needs an honest life.

And, again, he also made it pretty clear that he was loyal to his country. Just not blindly loyal to the KGB.

Elizabeth's statements aren't about what Philip really wants. It's about Elizabeth's guilt and insecurity. And the fact that she low-key hates herself.  Elizabeth thinks Philip would be better off if she were dead (something she's pretty much expressed twice.) There has never been a time where she thought she was enough for him. And that comes through in lots of ways . She doesn't just express this the times she says he should take the kids and be American. She also expresses it when she says she'd understand if he wanted to flee with Martha. She expresses it by, counter-intuitively, being the one who tends to get more jealous over his relationships with marks (not just Martha.) She expresses it by being (albeit somewhat justifiably) paranoid and jealous over Irina. When she says those things it's not about what Philip wants, it's about her genuine belief that he couldn't really just want her.

 

13 hours ago, Umbelina said:

His country will fall completely in very short order.  He may had DELAYED it, but he didn't save anything.  Actually if the Coup had succeeded?  The USSR would probably still be around.

Like Roseanna said, Philip is loyal to his home, not the concept of the USSR. He thinks the party is corrupt but he loves his country (much like Oleg). He won't take the collapse of the USSR as the collapse of his country. He will definitely think his actions saved the country from a corrupt organization eating away at it from the inside. Even as bad as things get after the fall, I think he'd see that as necessary growing pains for a better country. (If he lives for the rise of Putin he'll be disappointed.)

Now, Elizabeth is a different matter on that score. And, if they live, knowing she could have prevented the fall of the Soviet Union will probably haunt her for the rest of her life. But once she knew for a fact her loyalty and idealism was being manipulated not to save the world or effect a worldwide revolution but for the goals of a few individuals within the KGB she couldn't have made any other choice. It's not in her nature.

[sistermagpie]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

We've been through this before.  I didn't say that PHILIP always said it.  Elizabeth said it a few times to him, for example, in the episode where Gabe nearly dies and Philip tackles William and spits in his face, and they all think Elizabeth may be dying.  SHE says for him to keep the kids in the USA, and be Americans, like he always wanted. 

 

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

That Elizabeth said it, shows only what she thouht. She wasn't right in other matters, f.ex. when she suspected that Philip wanted rather live with Martha. What Philip really wanted is seen only how he acted.

The Soviet Union collapsed, but Philip wasn't a Soviet person in heart. He was a Russian patriot and most Russians live now much better than they ever did during the Soviet age.   

I read Philip the way Roseanna does here. I group together this scene from Chloramphenicol, the one in the Colonel where Elizabeth tells him he should be the one to raise the kids and the one where she says that if the kids were grown he would be going to Russia with Martha to be happy. I take them all as versions of Elizabeth saying, "Everyone would be happier without me." She has moments where she sees herself exactly this way, as someone who just brings misery to him and the family. Like when she asks, "Do you hate me?" Also when Claudia is telling her she should kill to avenge Zhukov's death and hints that they were lovers Elizabeth says something to the effect that she doesn't believe her because Claudia is "unlovable." It seems like she's talking about herself there as well.

But if Philip is not doing anything to reach the goal of defection and is in fact is making choices in the exact opposite direction how much does he want it? I would say this about anybody acting that way. Actions reveal more than words do. He doesn't even try to build on these moments. The only time he accepts Elizabeth's offer of a real life it's to go back to Russia together and then he takes it back with the tape. In Trust Me he's got actual FBI agents telling him he's already blown and if he talks they'll protect his kids' American lives. He had the perfect excuse to make a deal --it's already out of his hands-- and Philip tells them to go to hell.

I've actually always been a little confused about Elizabeth's exact wishes in Chloramphenicol because she says if she dies Philip should blame her for Pastor Tim and Alice's murder without waiting for Paige to get suspicious and then (if the Pastors are killed and she blames it on her) he can "just raise them here. Be Americans. Henry doesn't even ever have to know. And Paige.... It's what you want. What you've always wanted."

If we're talking about Philip defecting why would the Pastors have to die? How would Paige have time to get suspicious? How would Henry not know? Is Philip defecting in this scenario or just giving the kids' American lives? All her specific instructions are about protecting the life they have now in Falls Church. Maybe Elizabeth herself doesn't think that what Philip's always wanted was actual defection.

18 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

But he was able to save his country, he's back in Russia, which is what he's wanted for a couple of seasons, and he has Elizabeth, whom he clearly loves even if it isn't a love story. So, I think he's relatively happy with the result except for losing his kids. Of course, he will miss the USA  (I think it's plausible that Elizabeth could miss it more than him though. At least he loves hockey.) Of course, losing the kids is devastating. But he gets to be himself now. 

I do tend to think that he'd be satisfied to have done what he thought was right for the right reason even if it didn't have a grand result. He'd spent so long doing extreme things that hurt people where he couldn't even trust the motivation. Here he was actually saving innocent people who wanted to make every day life better for Russians. He wouldn't want to die, but he probably wouldn't regret what he did. His heart was genuinely with the reformers.

[Roseanna]

I find interesting that Elizabeth who wants a private revenge on the CIA chief Patterson for an order to kill Elizabeth's beloved mentor Zhukov go, lets Patterson go. Instead, Stan kills Vlad on revenge although he must have understood that this poor young man was personally innocent albeit a member of the KGB.

Elizabeth explains to Philip that "I lost control" which doesn't happen to her otherwise. Patterson evidently got under Elizabeth's skin by saying that he is nobody, doesn't order anything, just follows orders from above. Instead, Philip who is considered "soft" by many, doesn't release the Israeli agent who also gets under his skin by saying that he will return home after the operation whereas Philip's whole life is a lie. Philip may doubt and argue before, but once when he has taken the task, he finishes it.

Of course also Patterson's defence just following orders from above and refusing therefore any responsibility for them is, besides super hyperbole, an interesting opposite to Philip insistence in S6 take the whole responsibility although he has "only" been the doer.  

[CherithCutestory]

22 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Elizabeth explains to Philip that "I lost control" which doesn't happen to her otherwise. Patterson evidently got under Elizabeth's skin by saying that he is nobody, doesn't order anything, just follows orders from above. Instead, Philip who is considered "soft" by many, doesn't release the Israeli agent who also gets under his skin by saying that he will return home after the operation whereas Philip's whole life is a lie. Philip may doubt and argue before, but once when he has taken the task, he finishes it.

Elizabeth is also the one who asked Gabriel to ask the Centre if they could find another way in with the Young-Hee situation so she wouldn't have to complete the mission. She had already made Don think they slept together but she didn't want to ruin this family. As tormented as he was about his missions, when he was an active spy Philip never did that. He'd get mad about his missions and sass Gabriel about them but if he took them up he always did them to the end. He even asked Martha if she would collect the tapes from MailRobot after she knew he wasn't Clark, the pen had been discovered and she was on the cusp of being discovered, herself. He did tell her she had a choice but he knew she'd do anything for him by then. (He did abort the Kimmy kidnapping scheme but that was after retirement and it was a ridiculous plan anyway.)

There are other examples where Elizabeth is the soft one even though it's usually Philip. Elizabeth was the one completely shaken up about the fate of Jared (before she found out what he did.) She was questioning where "they" would send him all by himself (Hungary, Switzerland...) Philip was much more calm about it and figured the Centre would take care of it. She doesn't say it outright but she's the one really questioning and pushing on whether the Centre has Jared's best interests in mind. It's a pipe dream, but she's the one who says she wishes they could bring Tuan to Russia with the family (which would cause an obvious rift with Vietnamese intelligence.) And the one who went over to spend the night because he seemed lonely. And the one who slipped up and mentioned their son with him (which didn't turn out to be a big deal but giving another intelligence agent ammunition to use against you isn't a good idea.)

Don't know what it means narratively. Except that as much as Philip is the one who really struggled the cracks in Elizabeth's veneer have been there for a very long time.

Edited December 26, 2018 by CherithCutestory

[sistermagpie]

I always thought a bit difference between Philip and Elizabeth was that since she was focused on just following orders and being the best soldier she didn't know how to deal with being conflicted except to find ways to make it not that. I remember watching Only You, for instance, and thinking it was funny that Elizabeth and Gregory were the ones who kept talking about how they were all about the cause, especially compared to Philip who was "soft" and would make Elizabeth so. And yet it was Philip who was being professional throughout pretty much that whole season and Elizabeth who was taking action out of emotion that caused more upheaval--the separation, the CIA kidnapping that she then melts down about, the drama with Gregory both when she breaks up with him and when she wants him to be able to choose his own death etc. Not that Philip's never acting out of emotion himself, of course. But I think she's often pushed to more extreme places because she needs more control and the loss of it makes it worse for her

But even later, that makes sense. Elizabeth does try to do what's asked of her and when she knows she's being emotional it upsets her. She thinks you deal with emotions by repressing them and focusing on orders.

Where as with Philip, especially as he develops, he knows that he's responsible for his own actions so even when he's going against the Centre, he's okay with doing that. He doesn't ask Gabriel if he can please not sleep with Kimmy, he just comes up with his own alternate plan. By S6 it's like the one thing he can't do is something he doesn't think is right for him. He'll chop up Marilyn without regret (it was even his idea), but regretted letting himself be convinced to join the Kimmy plot just on Elizabeth's say-so knowing that she's now more than ever not thinking things through.

In a way by season 6 Elizabeth's gone to the opposite extreme. In the past she had Philip and even Gabriel there to offer her ways to say it was okay to have problems with orders etc., even if Gabriel didn't ultimately do anything about those orders. But by S6 it's her and Claudia. With Claudia anything Elizabeth has trouble dealing with just has to be repressed or embraced as something that makes her life meaningful. And she's robotically repeating those lessons to Paige while denying everything about reality that makes that impossible. (In fact, she's gotten so used to just denying everything she can't deal with to the point where she's disconnected from a lot of the reality of her life, especially with her family.)

Edited December 27, 2018 by sistermagpie

[sistermagpie]

This is an answer to the convo on the Philip thread because it seemed like it was more about both of them or Elizabeth:

 

On the subject of the two characters getting their way or making sacrifices, I think sometimes it also gets confusing especially with Elizabeth because what Elizabeth wants is often to follow the Centre's orders, which can make it unclear whether it's a sacrifice or self-centered. For instance, as I've said before, it's hard for me to see Elizabeth working so hard alone in S6 as purely a sacrifice for Philip because the whole reason they stayed in the US was that Philip had to keep working Kimmy and Philip isn't getting anything out of Elizabeth working herself to death. Elizabeth thinks her work is important--in S6 she acts like it's the only thing that's important--she's not doing a job she hates just so that Philip doesn't have to do it. But of course at the same time she *is* making a sacrifice in that she doesn't want to ask Philip to go back to work just to make it easier for her. So there is a sacrifice for Philip there along with the sacrifice for the cause, but it's all in the larger context of their being there because Elizabeth could not return to the USSR and Philip could. (Her choice to stay and his choice to stay with her lead to them ultimately being split from the kids since they're grown up.)

Likewise, there are things listed in the other thread as Philip getting his way that are imo are Elizabeth accepting something she would just never want to ask for herself. For instance, with Yousef. In the episode where Philip suggests having Aneileise work him, the story is explicitly about both Jennings trying to spare the other from doing a part of the job they like the least because of their growing feelings for each other. They are both accepting a generous gesture from the other person in having Elizabeth handle the assassination and Philip handle the honeytrapping. Elizabeth goes for a long period without any honeytrapping, in fact--I think the next time she has sex outside of marriage is with the guy in Stingers. There too Philip offered to wait until there was a woman on duty for him, but she opted to take the job herself.

The trip to Germany was also something done for Elizabeth's sake. Philip thought she should get to say good-bye to her mother and while Elizabeth would never have asked for it herself, it wasn't something she was doing to please Philip. (It was something like Elizabeth asking Gabriel to get Mischa out of Afghanistan.) One of the reasons Philip is good for Elizabeth is that she has problems doing things that feel like they're purely for herself and often finds ways of hiding them from herself (which can cause it's own problems--I think that explains some of the ways she's handling Paige in S6). As Philip becomes more burnt-out he becomes more sensitive to what he's doing to others so he feels each bad act more. Elizabeth goes in the opposite direction and became numb to everything but her immediate objectives, killing and disparaging the very idea of joy in life.

[Roseanna]

In order to understand wjat is so special in P/E's relationship, maybe we should compare it with other couples, especially Stan/Sandra and Stan/Renée.  

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Roseanna said:

In order to understand wjat is so special in P/E's relationship, maybe we should compare it with other couples, especially Stan/Sandra and Stan/Renée.  

 

The convo on the Philip thread also was making me think about Gregory/Elizabeth since they were brought up in the context of Philip/Elizabeth. And I think because we see them in context of Philip/Elizabeth it makes it seem like Philip is more central to their relationship than he was. 

When Elizabeth and Gregory first got together, Philip was her partner, so they had an intimate working relationship and they lived together--he was a big part of Elizabeth's life. But they weren't sleeping together, there was no expectation of sex. They were pretending to be husband and wife, but only in the most superficial way, introducing themselves as such to neighbors or whatever. All the most important people in Elizabeth's life at that point knew the truth--especially Philip, of course. Once inside their apartment they were two KGB partners from Russia, not husband and wife. 

So Elizabeth was just a young KGB agent working in Washington and Gregory was another guy working for the KGB she fell in love with. Her own life wasn't split between real and fake. Philip was her partner, Gregory was her boyfriend. It was significant that she hid the relationship from Philip, but she hid it from everybody at the Centre. Her love life was her own. Philip wasn't the fake lover and Gregory the real one. Gregory was her lover and Philip was not. 

Both Elizabeth and Gregory have the same perception of their relationship then: they were drawn to each other as young revolutionaries who shared a passion for the cause. Gregory says they understood it was about something bigger than the war or race, it was about justice and it was the two of them against the world. Elizabeth says he was passionate about the cause and passionate about her. Gregory wasn't a refuge, he was a thrill. A romance of her own. It's a very recognizable passionate affair.

What changed everything for everyone wasn't Philip killing Timoshev, it was Paige being born. Paige wasn't going to hold Elizabeth hand and call her Mommy in public and then drop the act when they got home. She was going to be her real daughter she was raising and that changed her relationship with both men. Philip and she created a real family. He was her children's father, they were raising them together. That's why she can say to Gregory "He's my husband" when they've barely started a relationship. 

When Elizabeth showed up on Gregory's doorstep sobbing in 1967, which to me always seemed like an incredibly important moment *for him*, it wasn't Philip that sent her there, it was the baby she was about to have that was freaking her out. That seems to be the point where Gregory became a refuge--not a refuge from Philip specifically, but a refuge from her cover life. Gregory says Elizabeth said she couldn't, "live this lie, raise this child." The family was the lie and Philip was part of that. That's when Philip becomes the fake romantic rival to Gregory's real one. And we see that being central to their relationship in S1. Gregory's whole argument is that the family life is "not really her," that she's just gotten confused, that Philip is her *cover* not her husband, that they can't have anything real. He's not criticizing Philip as a romantic rival because of personal flaws, he's reminding her--as she perhaps begged him to do all those years ago when she was terrified of the inevitable--that he's just part of her fake life. 

But by this time it's only in the bubble of Gregory's apartment that Elizabeth really pretends that's true, or just doesn't contradict it. When Gregory asks her to run away with him Elizabeth doesn't give him a specific reason why she can't, like saying she can't leave her job, but obviously she wouldn't consider leaving her family. The idea of making a life that starts with just Gregory isn't any sort of dream or even a fantasy for her by then.

Regarding Stan and Sandra, their relationship does seem to have some echoes in S6 Philip/Elizabeth when Elizabeth's pulling away from everything and Philip's trying to confront her about it, but in a way they're opposites. Stan ultimately really wasn't up for trying to save the marriage while for Elizabeth it still seemed one of the most--if not the most--important personal thing she had. Sandra realized that Stan was really no longer her husband and that sent her to EST and other things to figure out who she was if she wasn't this guy's wife. She realized she'd been in a marriage that was over. Where as with Philip it seems like it was his real relationship to Elizabeth that made him more able or interested in knowing who he was.

Renee, to me, just seems like the ultimate proof of how Stan chooses relationships that are better or smoother because the alternative is too hard. He had a wife who tried to get him to confront how he'd changed and be open with her and he instead turned to the heroic role he felt he played in Nina's life. His son, likewise, really tried with him. He saw that Stan did want a relationship, but he seemed to also ultimately see that he wasn't willing to confront and work through uncomfortable things to get there--it was very similar to what Sandra said about him, really. He thought it was enough to just have Matthew come to the house and avoid awkwardness. This, of course, was also what made Henry so appealing--he wasn't Stan's son, Stan had never let him down since Henry had no expectations of him, Henry had never seen Stan look bad, all their conversations were positive, he saw all the cool things about Stan's image. If Henry did any complaining, it was about his own parents and Stan got to be the good guy by comparison. He was never a disappointment to Henry--or Renee!

[sistermagpie]

Oh, and I always forget to mention another little parallel with Sandra and Stan is that when Sandra starts getting into EST and all that there's a scene where Stan comes home and she's drawing and when he asks what she's doing she says it's called "soul retrieval." Basically very similar to what Elizabeth is doing in S6--if there was one thing she needed then it was soul retrieval.

i think Stan's just sort of mildly uninterested in it beyond wondering what she's doing in that moment where Philip seemed to be able to see something important in first the drawings he looked at in Elizabeth's hiding place and on the plane where Elizabeth just explained that someone was "making her learn" to draw. She's already started to want to get something out of the drawing by then, but it's no coincidence she makes a breakthrough when drawing with Philip beside her at a moment where she feels sure of him.