[S08.E05: The Bells]

2 hours ago, Drogo said:

Motherfucker...

 

. . .Auntfucker?

[S08.E05: The Bells]

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

I loved the episode because in reality people don’t act the way you want them to.  

I’ve worked with people who’ve done 180s because bad shit happened to them, so I know it happens in real life, so this episode didn’t bother me at all.

I am curious for all who hated it, what would you have preferred?

I've been banging on with my complaints for the last week on the Book and Spec & Spoilers threads and I'm so bummed right now, I don't have the energy to elaborate regarding the numerous options I would have preferred over this shitshow. Long story short, I would have preferred for the writing of the last, I don't know, three to four seasons to have competently laid groundwork for Dany's turning into a manaical mass murderer. The fact that she descends from an inbred crazy isn't enough for me to believe this (nor is the slavers' crucifixions or the Tarly BBQ). Some finesse in storytelling, rather than ham-fisted character assassination is what I'd have preferred.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I would have prefer her screaming and burning in wildfire, as she did to thousands in the church.

I wanted her to die alone or (second choice) to be killed by Jaime.  I get the symmetry they were going for--they came into the world together and left it together--but she SO did not deserve to have someone she loved comforting her in her last moments, damn.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

1 hour ago, dbell1 said:

I'm so mad I don't even know where to begin right now. This is not the show I've watched for eight years. Is Dany so insane that she would burn children? That's not the character we've seen.

 

IKR? This is the woman who locked up her other two dragons after Drogon burnt up ONE child and took off. But now she's a mad psycho who doesn't care about hundreds/thousands of them.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

7 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

You are not. It's just the end of 8 years with these characters. I like this end for Jaime. I don't need to see Cercei tortured. We had The Walk already. Are we gonna be like Cercei and want to see Oleanna flayed alive?

I, personally, don't want to see anyone flayed alive. I simply  object to the fact that the two of them got the sympathy edit, not to mention the romantic/tragic music and the kind of long, drawn out scenes that numerous other main characters deserved far more. D&D went out of their way to humanize Cersei (using Jaime to do it) after all her vile deeds, while Dany, who's been drawn as more human than Cersei for 7+ seasons is reduced to a monstrous killing machine.

In a word: Gross.

In another word: Bullshit.

[S08.E05: The Bells]

Oh, FFS. Endless scenes of the Jaime and Cersei love story? I'm supposed to feel bad for them why, exactly?  While Dany's character has been fucked over seven ways to Sunday?

Yeah, D&D & GRRM: War is hell (said every movie, book, and t.v. show about this exact topic in the last 150 years or so). No fucking shit. This is not news.

Whether or not Emilia Clarke is laughing all the way to the bank, it must have been so painful for her to learn how her character would be torn down, much less have to act it. No wonder she needed to walk around half a day processing.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

48 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I wish I could "useful" and "sad" your post simultaneously, but I went with the stronger feeling. I just feel like D&D haven't remembered the books even exist for the past several years. I read a review with David Nutter yesterday that asked him some burning questions about 8.04. His answers indicated that his read on the episode (which must mainly come from the script he was provided) when directing it was pretty shallow and barely informed by past seasons, much less the books themselves. I'll have to see if I can dig it up and post a link.

Here's the Nutter interview I was talking about. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I'd rather he live.  If anyone has earned it?  He has.

Now, he's just a purely tragic character.

I've thought he was doomed for a long time. I'd have been okay with him making it, but I'm not surprised he won't. Hey, at least he got to grow as a character instead of taking two steps forward, 85 steps back, like Jaime.

ETA: I don't mean to sound flip about your feelings of disappointment re: the Hound's fate. I absolutely feel for you.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

They all say both die, and many say in fire.

I HATE that ending!  Absolutely HATE it.  I love the Hound, I don't want him to die, but above all I don't want him to die in a fire.  That is beyond horrid.

Yup. Whether or not he's conqured his pyrophobia since the Battle of Winterfell, it's still pretty sadistic. I was hoping he'd get to have a death scene with Arya by his side. This time, she'd stay--and he'd actually die.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

9 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I always figured Jon would sacrifice himself to save a pregnant Dany and she'd end up on the Throne. That would be in alignment with everything we've been building up to, but not a totally picture-perfect ending. 

I could have lived with that.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

7 minutes ago, loki567 said:

That's very, very possible. It would be horrible but the show's been capable of that kind of horrible. 

It also brings to mind the theory I've seen before that all past legends in Westeros' history might have been prophecies about our current characters past down through the history. For example, Tyrion's Lann the Clever, etc. 

So by the same token, Jon might have been the one to actually start the Azor Ahai legend about killing his wife and forging Lightbringer by stabbing Dany and restarting the Night's Watch. 

I wish I could "useful" and "sad" your post simultaneously, but I went with the stronger feeling. I just feel like D&D haven't remembered the books even exist for the past several years. I read a review with David Nutter yesterday that asked him some burning questions about 8.04. His answers indicated that his read on the episode (which must mainly come from the script he was provided) when directing it was pretty shallow and barely informed by past seasons, much less the books themselves. I'll have to see if I can dig it up and post a link.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

You guys? I'm now worrying that Jon will start killing Dany and then she'll tell him she's pregnant when it's too late for him to un-kill her.

My exchange w/the show if that happens:

P.S. I learned to make a meme just for this post. . . so thanks, GoT?

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

1 hour ago, Stallion12 said:

Some sources say against John, but nothing is confirmed yet.

To me, he's already dead. When they killed Missandei, Grey Worm died with her. His reaction tore my heart to shreds. 

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

10 minutes ago, Chiny11 said:

Don't think she's pregnant.  Are they really going to have St Jon stab Dany and his child? 

Maybe there's a flash-forward in 8.06 so the baby (if there's one) is ready to be born. Dany's been ruling and going steadily more apeshit. Then she does the apeshittiest thing, whatever it is, then gives birth, then he kills her after that. Because god forbid she dies in childbirth, thus sparing her the horrific last moments of being killed by the man she loves (and sparing Jon having to make yet another soul-killing, traumatic decision.)

Oy. I felt ridiculous typing that, but really, nothing would surprise me at this point.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I like Jon as he is.  He has accomplished so much through the books, and even in the show.  His lack of desire to be proclaimed King, but his reluctance acceptance of that is part of why he has been such a good guy.  He's made mistakes, but he's shown care towards people, the wildlings for example.  Without him the WW would now be in charge of all of Westeros, he rallied people, he gave Arya the sword, he lived behind the wall to learn the truth, he listened to Samwell about dragon glass.

He's accepted power when thrust at him, but he's never sought it.  He's sacrificed a lot, including his own life.  I will never "hate" him.

 

This pretty much sums up my feelings about Jon, too. He's more complex and savvy in the books and I've missed that, but I still love TV Jon and have been as moved by his journey on the show as I was in the books. He's a good Aeg(on).

Sorry. I'll see myself out . . .

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

47 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

What I still love about this show is that its still making us have these sorts of conversations. Is Cersei mad or evil? Is she both? Is there a difference?  Which one is worse?

To me Crazy involves some level of absolution. If either Cersei or Dany are truly crazy, then I feel bad for them. They may not even be capable of doing the right thing. They are broken. This is why many legal systems have a verdict of Not Guilty by reason of insanity. If I understand correctly the main question that defiines actual legal insanity is if the person  does not know that what they were doing was a crime, that they are unable through a mental defect, of understanding their actions.  Cersei knows her action are wrong . Its not that she cant accept responsibility, its that she wont.

 Now if we are using the vernacular for crazy, I dont think  Dany is  crazy, nor Cersei They have no delusions, dont hear voices or do any of the things we usually use to define crazy.

  But one can also be insane AND evil.  That could be Cersei.  While I dont think Dany is fir for the throne, as yet, I don't see her as evil or insane. I think she has completed some bad acts. I think she is capable of evil, but I dont think she is evil now

 If Dany break and goes completely nuts, ie the sound of bells scenario, then I will feel badly for her demise. It would be terribly sad. If , on the other hand,she lets her worst impulses get the best of her, especially with less people to hold her back, her killing would be less sad.

At the end of the day, even if Dany goes full on bad(not insane) she is still far far better than Cersei.

These are my own definitions of crazy vs evil . Yours may be different.

I think I was editing my original post while you were responding; you've much better expressed much of what I was trying to say. The overlap of evil and madness is definitely one of those fascinating wormholes and Cersei is a prime example to pick apart (from the cozy confines of my sofa). I can't believe the cuckoo bells aren't for her, actually--if not to drive her over the edge, then just as her death knell. It's such a perfect callback that I'll feel like the ball was dropped if they do turn out to be for Dany. If she must go crazy, can it be sans bells?  Like you, I'd feel horribly sad if she completely loses it and dies that way. But I guess I'd feel better if it were an act of sheer madness, rather than premeditated revenge in which she doesn't care about the collateral damage, because that's less of an assault on her character? Talk about the lesser of two evils. 😞

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

33 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

I dont think Cersei is insane either, just evil

You've made so many good points in your prior posts and this is also food for thought. It seems to me that acts which are now being used as predictive signposts for Dany's turn to madness are seen by some people as evil, also.  I saw Cersei's plotting for the first several seasons as evil, but blowing up the Sept, while expedient and cleverly plotted, made me see her as crazy, because she was completely unable to take responsibility for any her actions leading up to the Walk of Shame or afterward. She blames everyone except herself for the death of her children. That's nuts. IMO, in Cersei's case, "evil" and "crazy" aren't mutually exclusive. I see Dany as neither, despite how she was portrayed in 8.04 and what's coming down the 'pike.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

2 hours ago, glowbug said:

Some people might be saying Dany going mad or turning evil is wrong no matter what but the vast majority of us (including many who don’t particularly like Dany) have said that it’s the execution that’s bad. I wouldn’t have a problem with Dany going crazy or Jon killing Dany if it had been properly set up. The way D&D have written it is unbelievable. They keep telling us that she’s acting crazy at times but what they’re showing us hasn’t been crazy to a lot of us, and she hasn’t been morally ambiguous enough to justify a villain edit at the end. Arya and Sansa becoming villains would be more supported by what they’ve shown us onscreen, though I would hate it if they went in that direction too. 

 

^This.^ Thank you. 

Months ago I posted that both Dany and Jon were at the top of my death list, but it never occurred to me that (a) she'd die crazy or (b) he'd kill her because she was crazy. Yes, I hate to see the dragons die, but I didn't complain about the writing behind Viserion's "death," for example, because, while the Wight Hunt had its issues, his death in that context made sense to me. Rhaegal's death, on the other hand, didn't, because it was a result of Dany suddenly being too unhinged, apparently, to even remember that Euron's navy exists. Really? Please.

The notion that people who object to Dany's "madness" are just Jonerys shippers and/or dragon stans is reductive and I kind of resent it. Her "WMDs" have been presented as sentient beings she considers her children. I bought into that, and not because I think they're soooo cute. Like nuclear missiles, they are potentially devastating. Unlike nuclear missiles, they are intelligent and loyal. They're also bonded to their mother. The show leaned hard into this bond for years, and I find myself unable to disengage from it at D&D's convenience. Having said that, I didn't expect any of them to live to the show's conclusion (laws of three/magic, etc.) As a Jon fan, I was okay with the J/D relationship because, again, it made sense based on what had come before, but I was also prepared to accept them breaking up because complications. I never expected a fairytale ending for them because that's not how this show or this world works. My loyalties thus far have been based on the story and character development presented over many seasons.

While I may be very invested in certain characters, however, I'm above all a fan of good storytelling. If there had been a logical, consistently drawn trail to lead us to to Mad Queen Daenerys, I would have had no choice but to follow it--and the payoff, if "bittersweet," would be earned. This, however, feels like a bait-and-switch. Do we have a Mad Queen? Absolutely. Her name is Cersei, and she's having the best time ever.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why not the front? "The Lannisters Starks send their regards."

I rewatched the 8x05 promo, and in that shot of Tyrion  tentatively approaching Dany at Dragonstone, you can see that her hair is undone and completely loose and frizzy. Her hair hasn't looked that wild since her capture by the Dothraki. That's...not a good sign. (I don't know if this is before or after Dany putting her hair in a battle braid and wearing a dark outfit as seen in one of the preseason promos).

Didn't she and Missandei used to do each other's hair? I seem to remember scenes in Essos that showed this, in particular the one in which they're discussing Missandei's relationship with Grey Worm. Has Dany been shown with a lady's maid since Doreah and her other murdered maid? The wild hair may simply signify grief and the absence of her best friend*, but it's easy enough to also see it as a sign of her further tipping over the edge (sigh).

*It could also be a sign of humidity, as my own whacked-out hair May through August can attest.

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

7 minutes ago, Callista said:

Tyrion said it to Shae during his trial, when she began sharing the details of their relationship with the court. He didn't say it out loud for all to hear. He just said it quietly for her alone to hear, something like "Shae. Please. Don't."

Ah, yes--thank you!

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

Something (well, a lot of things), but anyway, a small thing has been nagging at me from 8.04:

When Tyrion says to Varys, "Please. Dont.", I can't shake the sense that it's a callback to that line--said in the exact same way--in a long-ago episode. Problem is, I can't remember exactly when or who said it. I feel like it may have been somebody talking to Cersei, possibly Jaime or Tyrion? Aargh, it's driving me crazy. Does anybody know the past scene I'm talking about?

Thanks in advance!

[S08.E04: The Last of the Starks]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Book Renly was a piece of garbage.  Show Renly...I don't think he was strong enough. 

I've had a lot of criticisms with D&D but streamlining GRRM's excess is not one of them.  George has no discipline whatsoever as a writer and has allowed the books to become an endless, bloating mess.  D&D, the cast and the crew of the show shouldn't be held hostage to an author who clearly is never going to finish the book series (and has clearly lost interest in it) that the show was based on.

Oh, I'm not a GRRM stan (I did enjoy the books, however) and absolutely agree that committing to television every minute thing he set to paper would have been next to impossible without going nuts and overbudget and losing viewers. I was fine with much of what D&D did in terms of streamlining and condensing (although I take exception to some of the things they did [or didn't] do with characters like Jamie and Jon). I've been really impressed over the years at how they've steered the show. Based on that, I had high expectations for how they'd end it. There are plenty of fans who love and see a throughline for what I perceive to be an about-face WRT Dany's character. I place more blame for this last season on D&D than on GRRM because they've been off his script for a long time, yet they also, apparently, have also known where he intends it to go, on some level at least, for a long time. For me, D&D's stating publicly that they're hurtling to the finish line doesn't absolve them from responsibility for mistakes they make along the way.

And by "mistakes," I don't necessarily mean taking Dany down what looks to be the "Mad Queen" path; I mean not building a strong enough case that she was going that way all along.

[S08.E04: The Last of the Starks]

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well GRRM gave them the plot points; D & D told us all they're taking the bullet train route.

 So use your imagination and 7 years of info and piece the stuff together, if you really need to blame someone call New Mexico, ask for George.

So I shouldn't "blame" D & D for taking the bullet train route because they first announced they were taking the bullet train route? By that logic, you shouldn't blame your significant other for cheating as long as he/she gave you a heads-up before doing it. 

Also, I'm pretty well able to "use [my] imagination and piece the stuff together," when there's enough fabric to actually make something that isn't shitty and full of holes, thanks. 

GRRM wrote what he wrote and probably won't finish the series, but according to him, he knows how he wants it to end. Fine. But whatever information he gave D & D, he gave to them YEARS ago. They had plenty of time to figure out how to do this well and they are responsible for the television show they run, just as GRRM is responsible for the books he writes (or doesn't write). The books are on Martin. The show is on D & D.

[S08.E04: The Last of the Starks]

10 minutes ago, maystone said:

I think Dany has most usually been shown to be a flawed hero. How many times did she have to be talked down from an extreme stance when it came to her enemies? Not always one for nuance, especially on her early road. I can't remember the season - maybe 3? - when Tyrion trotted out what was taken to be a truism about the vagaries of the Targaryen bloodline: They say that when a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin. That always stuck with me, and it always seemed to me an important part of watching Dany's character arc.

She is flawed, and that's what I expect from all the characters in this story. The fact that she could--unlike Cersei--be talked down was proof (to me) that she wasn't like her father. I remember when Tyrion said that about the coin flip; it pricked up my ears, too. But when I first watched, and even on my rewatch a couple months ago, there wasn't enough evidence over the seasons to make this hard left into Crazytown plausible to me.  🤷‍♀️

[Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion]

48 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Marriage yes, she's still in charge. Marriage to a guy who is the rightful heir to the throne she believes is hers by divine right? No way in hell. Dany will NOT share her power, she said it herself twice (802/804) nd the Tyrion/Varys conversation in 804 covered it twice.

Quote

48 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

HE is the legitimate heir, not her.  The country knows him, they don't know her. 

If someone was to be "consort" it would be her, not him.

Aside from that, while Dany is fine with incest, Jon is obviously not.

 

Point taken that Jon might not get past the aunt/nephew issue, but I was never convinced it was a guaranteed dealbreaker. Anyway, I should have qualified my original statement:  ". . . could possibly have worked if she weren't now being presented as completely power mad and seeing everyone as a potential threat to her rule," is what I was getting at but didn't properly express. Rolling the idea out in a conversation with Jon (as Tyrion still did in his conversation with Varys even though they ended up agreeing it wasn't workable) at least would have made her seem more reasonable, and less the squirrelly weirdo she was in 8.04 (and apparently has been all along; stupid me just didn't realize it). I never saw her as unwilling to share power (not 50/50) with someone she trusted--even the true, on-paper, heir--especially if he doesn't really want the power and is devoted to her.  If this was so clearly shown over the past 7 seasons, why was it necessary to put words in Dany and other characters' mouths about it now?