CluelessDrifter

I respect your opinion, but I thought my example was clear, and it seems to have been disregarded, so I'm going to say agree to disagree at this point?

This was John's perspective in Dead Man's Blood: "You gotta understand something. After your mother passed all I saw was evil, everywhere. And all I cared about was keeping you boys alive. I wanted you...prepared. Ready. Except somewhere along the line I ... uh ... I stopped being your father and I ... I became your, your drill sergeant. So when you said that you wanted to go away to school, all I could think about, my only thought was, that you were gonna be alone. Vulnerable. Sammy, it just... it never occurred to me what you wanted." And we knew he was concerned enough to check up on Sam and also knew that Azazel had plans for Sam, so I can see why he wasn't thrilled with the idea of Sam leaving, getting complacent, being alone, and staying in one place where he would have been easier for Azazel to track down (not that Azazel seemed particularly happy about it either, or Jess wouldn't have died). Should John have told Sam he didn't want Sam to go, because it scared him? Yes. Should he have handled it in the exact wrong way and kicked Sam out for it? No. Should he have told Sam about Azazel's plans? I'm not sure. Probably, but I don't know how Sam would have reacted, and we wouldn't have had season 2, which is tied as my favorite season, if John had told them all of that before he died.

I would counter by saying that the abandonment Dean feels comes from the way in which it was done with Sam cutting off contact with Dean. If you still talked to your sister, while you were in college, it's not quite the same thing. As for resentment, I think in Skin the shifter said that Dean was jealous that Sam got to go pursue his dreams and had friends, while Dean couldn't, because he had a responsibility to his Dad and hunting, but that's the only instance where I can think that resentment was brought up on Dean's side. It wasn't said by Dean, even though we can surmise it's something he feels, but he hasn't said it out loud, and as @DeeDee79 said, Dean has also verbally praised Sam for being smart and going to college. I think how it would compare in a real life setting is if an older sibling had always given everything they had to a family and had to continue to bare the brunt of those responsibilities alone, while watching their younger sibling go off to college. Maybe the older sibling was intelligent and would've had things he or she wanted to do, but let's say for the sake of argument, that they had to care for a a parent that has an illness of some kind and was likely to die without that support. Sure, the older sibling can leave and do whatever they want, but that responsibility to their parent and maybe supporting them with a job is what they and the family have come to rely on the older sibling to do, and the older sibling knows his or her role and accepts it, but if the older sibling then watches their younger sibling go off to college, I think in that instance that it would be as common as not for the older sibling to feel resentment alongside varying levels of pride or happiness for their younger sibling.

I'm just going to quote myself, so the full context of what is written is here, because I think to do otherwise misinterprets what I wrote and makes it seem as though I was saying that Sam abandoned Dean by going to college. Perhaps I should have written it as 'abandoned', but I thought and still think my post was clear when taken in context.

Except that the limits that were pushed in season 4 far exceeded anything we were told happened prior to the start of the show, a single argument with John, and the separation in season 5 was mutually beneficial, some might say a necessity, for both of them. Not talking, while Sam was at college has always come across to me as Sam's choosing because of the way their reunion was written and acted. I also think that it's in Sam to cut ties with Dean, especially, a young immature Sam. You don't agree, and that's okay. At this point, I think it's best if we agree to disagree on this particular subject, so we don't continue repeating ourselves and annoying everyone else.

Dean was ready to let Sam go in season 5 after a year of Sam lying to him, going behind his back, and choosing a demon and his addiction over Dean. After the War case, Sam said he didn't trust himself, because he was tempted by what he thought was demon blood and missed the feeling. Dean had to step back. For himself. For the task at hand. At a certain point, you have to choose, you or the person with an addiction, or you'll both go down. Sam was still unsteady, pulled himself out of the equation, and Dean accepted that, because it was what was best for both of them. Once you've dealt with an addict for an extended period of time, you don't trust them when they're using, or when they're sober at first. You are always looking for signs they're using again, because they have every other time they've told you they're sober, and it isn't good for you or the addict. It's not easy to walk away from an addict, but when you've exhausted every other option, it's the only thing you can do until you and the person are ready, and they may never be ready. To me, that's a far cry from never talking to Sam again after a single fight where John told Sam if he walked out that door, not to come back, because Sam was going to college. I still think Dean would have tried to make contact in that scenario, and I've already laid out my reasons why.

I did point out that Sam gave as good as he got with John, and I don't see how that contradicts anything that I've already written. I still think Dean would have tried to call him without John knowing, and I don't think he would've thought John would totally disown him if he did find out. Dean knew John drove by Stanford to check on Sam. Dean knew John spoke proudly of Sam to victims, like Jerry in Phantom Traveller. And being responsible for your sibling for extended periods of time with no parental supervision, being responsible for the money and finding more when you run out during said periods of parental absence, making or buying your sibling meals, taking your sibling to school, making sure your sibling gets Christmases, and having to continue taking care of your sibling as well as your Dad when your Dad comes home and drinks the problems of the job away . . . I'd consider that raising him. Babysitters don't cover it. Neither does spending time at Bobby's or with Pastor Jim. Dean was the one constant in Sam's life, and I think John's words in IMToD confirm what we've seen in all the flashbacks over the years: "You know, I put, I put too much on your shoulders, I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me."

I'm sorry. I understand that's the way you see Dean, and I agree there is an insecurity there, but I think we see Dean differently, because I don't believe for one second, he'd let his brother walk out the door without trying to call him and talk him around to coming back so they could work it out, and then calling after it was obvious Sam wouldn't come back just to leave him messages telling him to call him until it became obvious Sam wouldn't, and I can totally see Sam not answering, listening to the messages, and then deleting them. Even after Mary walked out in season 12, Dean is the one who initiated and maintained contact with her, and he raised Sam.

I just don't see the Dean we've been shown not trying to make contact even after what John said and in spite of Sam's departure. I imagine a Dean that's quite like the Dean in Home or Just My Imagination going around the corner from where his Dad is and making the calls, leaving messages, and getting nothing back until finally he leaves a message that says that if Sam wants to talk to him, he knows how to get in touch, and leaves it at that . . . unless he's drunk dialing him after that point.

So, Jessica comes out, sees Sam talking to someone he introduces as Dean. She knows that's his brother. Other than that, she most likely doesn't know very much considering the part you just mentioned. After the brief introduction, does Sam then take his brother by the scruff of his jacket and turf him out of the apartment? Does he do anything that would cast further damage to his carefully constructed persona when his brother can and is doing that just by being there? No. In no way do I think that would happen if you're trying to keep up the appearance of being someone you're not. You'd fake a kind of politeness, asking your brother what he wants. You'd say whatever your brother has to say can be said in front of your partner to show her that you aren't hiding anything even though you are. When you find out it isn't something you want her to know, because she knows nothing about your life (again part of the show of not being who you are), you then politely excuse you and your brother to talk outside. That is what I mean. In absolutely no way do I take John's journal as anything close to canon. Aside from saying that, I won't discuss it in a debate on the show.

You see Sam getting interrupted as if he were going to say something to confirm or deny what Dean had said. I see a narrative choice that played out the way it did to let us know exactly where these characters are currently in the story.

Sam's entire life with Jessica was a show. He may have loved her, but he was all about keeping up appearances to hold onto that life with her. I'm not really sure where you're getting that I think she'd side with Dean over Sam.

Considering we have to go by what the characters do and say to give us background and Dean says, 'If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?' in a way that suggests Sam wouldn't have, in addition to Sam not disputing it, and Sam's actions and word delivery seeming to support it, then I think it was answered and have seen nothing that indicates otherwise. Just saying, 'I was just going to college,' doesn't cover not having any contact with Dean while he was going to college, and the entire point of Sam's story arc has been that he's a reluctant hero. He wanted nothing to do with that life, which includes Dean, gets pulled back into the life and ascends to his role as a hero.

Sam's thinking that John wouldn't want to talk to him or see him is a different story. Sam specifically says he's not sure if their Dad is going to want to see him, but Dean? I don't think that's what his perception of Dean was at all.

Do you mean that after Jessica had already met his brother, he should have just shoved Dean out the door without hearing him out? He had to put on at least a partial show to look good for her. She knew very little about Dean, but she knew he was Sam's brother. Hearing Dean out was initially all for the sake of appearances. He was going to talk to Dean outside and tell him, 'no,' which he did right up until Dean used his foot being in the door to convince him to come with him, and as I said, it wasn't for John so much as Dean saying that he didn't want to look for their Dad alone. That's why I think Sam cut Dean out as well as John. He knew Dean could convince him to come back, which is exactly what Dean does, not just with the hunt, but also in what Sam says to Dean after the hunt - he tells Dean to call him after he finds their Dad and that maybe they could meet up later, which re-opens the lines of communication and the potential to be pulled into a life Sam clearly does not want - something Sam would have been smart enough to know would happen if he ever talked to Dean or saw him again. When you're running from something, you do anything to keep it from coming after you, and that's what he did by cutting Dean out, but why he did it wouldn't necessarily feel all that good to the person being cut out regardless of the reasons for why it was done, especially if the person has abandonment issues.

Dean saying, "I haven't bothered you for anything," indicates that if anyone was going to make contact, it would be Dean, not Sam. Someone who got a call from someone else wouldn't think that contacting the other person by phone would be bothering them or that the other person wouldn't answer. There is no indication that Dean holds the cards on contacting Sam. It's Sam, who holds the power by not accepting said contact. (IMO, I guess, even though, I think it's clear).

Jess being there had something to do with that too, I think. He had to put on something of a show once she became involved, and that allowed Dean to get his foot in the door.

Ah, okay. Thanks. I still think the first one was rhetorical. The answer was in the question itself. I think the math suggests otherwise on the second despite there being some writing discrepancies with Sam's age and time spent at college.

That's outside canon.

Playing fast and loose how? We know that Dean said, "If I'd'a called, would you have picked up?" a rhetorical question that they knew the answer to already, and he said, "You know, in almost two years I've never bothered you, never asked you for a thing," indicating that Dean had tried for the first year Sam was away, as Sam had just gotten his LSAT results and had an interview for law school - both things that happen during your senior year. In Bugs, Dean said, "I remember that fight. In fact, I seem to recall a few choice phrases comin' out of your mouth," something Sam didn't dispute, and in Dead Man's Blood, we saw how Sam and John fought in a way we know was normal for them as Dean said, 'Oh, don't tell me it's starting again,' and Sam instigated that fight. John responded, and Dean was stuck as an observer, meaning that he was not an instigator or responder, but an observer playing peacekeeper with the two of them shouting over his head. And Sam most certainly gave as good as he got in that situation. Sam said that he and John were similar later in the episode, because with what happened to Mary and Jess they had more in common than anyone else, but I think it's clear that Sam and John fought the way they did because their personalities were so alike; hence the reason they responded in the same way to their losses and why Mary's personality was paired more with Dean's as a counterbalance.

I don't see a problem with Dean saying he didn't remember Hell. It was personal. I don't admit when I've been through traumatic experiences right away until I've had a chance to process them. People close to me don't have a right to know what happened until I decide they do, and if I talk about the situation after that, and they ask how I am, then I have the right to say I'm fine even if I'm not. They don't have a right to know until I'm ready to tell them just because they ask. Sam's lying just wasn't the same. The consequences could affect not only him, but the world, if he became the monster they were lead to believe he could become the first 3 seasons.

We also know that Sam wasn't a perfect angel on the night he left for college. He gave as good as he got. He and John are much more alike than not. We also know that Dean was there, but as an observer not instigator, and we know that Dean attempted to stay in contact with Sam for at least the first year he was away, but stopped, because Sam didn't pick up, unless you believe that Sam was going to graduate from Stanford a year early, since Dean hadn't bothered him in almost 2 years, and you take the LSAT typically after your 3rd year at university (I know that there are some numerical discrepancies with Sam's time at college in the writing too). And it wasn't just about Sam abandoning Dean to better himself at college. Were it not for Jess's death, it would have been for life and without a second look back at Dean. And I also don't think that it was Sam wanting to better his life that was the problem. It was cutting Dean out that was the problem to Dean.

'If I'd called, would you have picked up?' has always told me that Sam didn't when Dean had tried, so Dean stopped trying. And Sam was more than a little reluctant to help at first. He was hostile and flat out refused until Dean convinced him to help, and not, I think, for John, but because Dean said he didn't want to do it alone, which is why I don't think Sam picked up the phone when Dean called. I think he knew that if anyone could convince him to come back, it would be Dean (even though that last part was never specifically stated and part of my head-canon).

I wasn't talking about the summoning being when Dean was at his most vulnerable. I was talking about Dean being asleep for possibly the first time since he'd gotten out of Hell. At that point, the why and how of his getting out of Hell were unclear and meant Dean could be dragged back at any moment, and yes, Dean lied about what he and Bobby were doing, but he definitely told Sam what he and Bobby had done as soon as the summoning was over.

Judging by Sam's behavior in the pilot, I would say that Sam didn't want to be a part of their family anymore when he was away at college.