CluelessDrifter

As a follow up on the Mark post from December.

Yeah, Swan Song used to annoy me, mostly, because I think the green army man being there after Dean had to rebuild the Impala after the crash in season 1 was a little too . . . I wouldn't say it's a retcon the way I used to think, more like Dean made sure to get every detail right, which is why it worked to break through to Sam? I think that with time, though, I can appreciate the complexities of that original story arc more. For instance, the criss-crossing of Sam and Dean's storylines. The brother who started the series as a hunter, never got a chance to explore anything beyond that, believes that hunting is all there is for him, and in season 2 sold his soul so that his brother could live, is the brother who slowly allows himself to want more than hunting, is eventually the one who gets to have it, although, at a terrible price, and has to learn to let his brother go, which he does. This is in contrast with Sam's story, as Sam goes from being the one who wants to live a normal life, estranges himself from his family, and achieves his slice of normal for a while to sacrificing himself to save his brother and the world. That is a poetic story. Saving the world by locking Lucifer away is a satisfying ending for our heroes - tragic, but satisfying, because it held real meaning.

So, how are people feeling about this episode now with time from both it and the series finale?

No, that isn't canon. It's behind the scenes and doesn't change what's shown, particularly when there's nothing shown to support that as the undisputed answer to the question.

I don't go based off of what's outside of canon as an explanation for things on any show I watch. Sure, I read them, but it doesn't change what we're shown, and from what we're shown, it appears to be intentionally ambiguous, the same way that the oranges are, so we'll question if it's there because of real world reasons or supernatural, and there are no real wrong answers.

Yes, that was my interpretation too, and Danvers, who has never really been shown to see a spirit, doesn't act as if she sees her there.

Navarro's Mom loved oranges. It was there to raise the question 'are Navarro's family all really mentally ill, or is there something to the veil being the thinnest in Ennis?' The crystallised mark on the floor was left behind by the tongue. Who left her tongue is not clear. All we know for sure is who it wasn't. It wasn't the scientists. The cleaning ladies were pretty honest throughout their storytelling, but denied doing anything with the tongue. Realistically, they're the only ones who had access to Tsalal and could have put it there before the delivery driver found it at the start, and if they got the cremation tech to keep a piece of Annie that may have been cut out but that was never mentioned as having been missing, they could have frozen it for use at a later date, and then left it as a clue to connect the two crimes and lead police in the direction it did to solve Annie's murder. They had means and opportunity for the tongue, but the motive is a bit shaky as their primary objective seemed to be justice for Annie, they'd already found the perpetrators of Annie's murder, and got their own justice, so why draw the police on them? That brings in the option of either the man who most likely cut her tongue out - Hank - holding onto it and putting it there, which doesn't make sense from a motive, or opportunity stand point, considering he wouldn't have wanted the two cases connected as a clean up operator to the event, and he had no opportunity to put the tongue there before the delivery driver saw the place was abandoned, or it could be the supernatural. Did Annie leave it there so that the truth of her death would be found? That did ultimately lead to the shutting down of the company that was killing the people in the town, which was her primary goal. Holden and his father were in a car accident most likely due to a drunk driver. There's the way Danvers reacts to the drunk driver in episode 1, and then there's the one time Danvers is shown driving drunk herself and sees the polar bear, which brings me to my next point. I think that the living polar bear (through the stuffed polar bear) was a pretty strong metaphor for her son along with other references to people losing their left eye, so if we put those together, then we can kind of get a picture of what happened.

Except even in Shadow, the episode you mean, she straddles Dean first when they're tied up

Or at least a show bible

What he said was that she was a smart girl, because if she hadn't left, he was going to kill her. Then he added that he wouldn't have done it before letting Cas have an hour with her first. It was to poke fun at Cas for what happened earlier in the episode more than it was meant to be at her expense, particularly with the compliment for Meg at the start. What I find to be a more compelling discussion is that this was another episode in a running theme throughout the show where sexual violence is used against Dean. We see it time and time and time again. In this particular episode, it's with Meg when she straddles him while he's bound to a chair, threatens to cut his throat, calls it foreplay, and tells him to satisfy her or she'll please herself. While it's an interrogation, the undertones are obvious, and how is it treated in-show? Sam laughs. Does Sam have instances where he's in a similar situation? Occasionally, but it is far more prevalent with Dean and is quite often either never addressed or becomes a joke.

A Big Foot is the closest to a Yeti (Abominable Snowman). Wendigos are essentially insatiable cannibals with supernatural abilities, and the one on the show came across much more like Predator with the way it could blend in to its surroundings, but if we're going for real world reasons, it's because of the show's budget that they didn't keep doing it, and based on the effects that they had in later season even with a a bigger budget, that's probably a good thing. In the earlier seasons, they didn't need the crutch of VFX, because the storytelling was there, the show was darker, had less of a budget, and was still much better at eliciting the horror of the things they came across without really needing to show monsters in all their monster-y goodness. As their budget grew, I think it actually hindered the overall storytelling.

As a refresher the below, and I wouldn't call a Wendigo a third-tier monster. It just isn't European in its origin so it's less well known, but in actuality, they're pretty top tier as far as monsters go.

I love Rick Worthy's performance as the Alpha Vamp. I also really like his backstory on how he was really struggling with getting roles at the time that this came up, and he credits it with reinvigorating his career. I wouldn't change him being there. I think we got sort of what you're describing with the wendigo in season 1.

I agree. I actually think that the MoC arc was as much about 'teaching' Sam that what he said in The Purge was wrong, because he would do whatever it took to save Dean, even if Dean didn't want it, as it was about Dean being in Sam's shoes on the flip side.

Head canon is sometimes the only way to explain things on this show. Personally, I think that Lucifer was in control, and that made the vessel his, so it did work on him. I guess I've always thought that it works on their grace, so maybe it was both, since Cas was there too, but I'd think that would mean they would have been separated if it was banishing them both to parts unknown. If regular angels see it coming, they can make the sigils vanish, so I've always just thought that archangels are supposed to be faster/more powerful, which would make getting those sigils drawn without them stopping you is a lot harder to do.

I think Sam used it against Lucifer in The Vessel.

Admittedly, I haven't seen the episode yet, and I'm not sure when I'll have the chance, but I'm not sure that it isn't something Dean would do. From what I've read, the one thing that keeps sticking out to me is the scene in Devil's Trap where Dean says, "Killing that guy, killing Meg. I didn’t hesitate, I didn’t even flinch. For you or Dad, the things I’m willing to do or kill, it’s just, uh .... it scares me sometimes." Now, I know the show and Dean have come a long way since then and killing meat suits isn't an issue anymore, but I think that if you substitute Mom for Dad, it could apply in this situation too, no?

Didn't she bring up the BMoL in Regarding Dean? I remember, because I thought they'd use it to bring her more on board last season and didn't. Let me see if I can find it. ROWENA: Once, a beautiful witch was, again, run out of her homeland by those pompous, self-righteous, murderous hooligans. You know them as the British Men of Letters. She doesn't say she was captured, but there's some room there to make it work if you want to see it.

I'm really having a hard time with this one. As far as I'm concerned, it is a false equivalent. Are we going to blame Sam and Dean because leviathans took their form and used their memories to gun down people in towns they went to in season 1? Are we going to blame the men the shapeshifter in Skin 'became' before it killed their wives and girlfriends, or blame Dean for what the shifter said and did when it went after Sam later in the episode and almost killed him? No, because they weren't the ones who did those acts or said those things. An entirely separate entity from them, namely monsters that took their form, did.

Were you thinking about when he sent the tweet out last year saying his thoughts were with those in Dallas, Louisiana, and Minnesota, a Martin Luther King Jr. quote, and #NoViolence? Because I seem to remember there being something of an 'uproar' about that.

Sorry, this is so late. I just saw this. It's interesting that you say that, because Kyle Reese would often be considered the protagonist and Sarah Connor is the focal character. The way you see that movie is consistent with how you see Sam and Dean's roles.

Except that this contradicts what's in the show and why I don't think it should be considered canon even if it is "sanctioned". In Home we know what on the first sentence of the first page, John's journal said, "I went to Missouri and I learned the truth." None of that other stuff. To be honest, I know that Dean having 'fuzzy memories' was introduced into the discussion, but I'd go the other way with it. I think Dean was old enough to remember, which to me has always meant that he was old enough to remember having, not only a mother, but a 'doting' father, a home, and safety, snatched away from him. Which is worse? Having something like that and then having it literally burn down around you, or never having it? I don't know. I guess one would make you a realist and the other would make you more whimsical and always looking for that dream 'ideal' life. I guess the only time Sam could really relate about having his 'ideal life' destroyed was when he was in college and an adult. I think that's why he could be so flippant about his Mom being dead in the Pilot, but then by the time Salvation rolls around, he understands it.

Let me see if I can explain this in a way that makes sense. I'll most likely fail, but I'll try. I think you have to take everything we know about Dean going all the way back to season 1 when they were building these characters and their story to understand it. Dean built his self-worth, not on being wanted by members of his family, but in being needed by them. There is a vast difference between the two. One is predicated on being important to someone because they want you in their lives. The other is being important to someone because they need something from you, are dependent on you, need you to be a certain way, etc. To only think you're important when you're needed is a a very wobbly base to use as the foundation of your self-worth, because what happens when those people don't need you anymore? What happens if you fail to give other people what they need or want? You feel worthless. You have no purpose, etc, and in the meantime? You feel like every task you do or don't do will decide if those people will continue to find you important enough to have in their lives. You make decisions of what they need before they know they need them and that works out most of the time, but sometimes it doesn't, and you might go spiraling, particularly in a profession where your decisions might lead to people living or dying. It's not, IMO, that Dean feels confident in the decisions he makes or the way he lives his life, but that he has to be the one to make those decisions, and for better or worse, Sam plays his part in that. Two things come to mind at the moment. One is when the Darkness is released. When there was no time to think or act and the tsunami was heading toward them, what was Sam's natural reflex? He calls Dean's name and looks to him on what they should do. The other is at the end of Sharp Teeth when he gives Dean the ultimatum of being brothers or hunting together. Dean screwed up in his decision making, and Sam rescinds being brothers (since they decide to hunt together, and there were two options at that point).

Well, in fairness, I always thought that Carver intentionally forgot about Sera Gamble's era, so how could Sam be expected to remember anything like the portal Cas opened?