WindyNights

Interesting point but I don't think Cat would've made it to Winterfell actually by the time ACOK started.Getting there is a long road. I kinda think that Tywin would've let Jaime die to kill off Robb and the rest. Reason being is that there's a line at the end of AGOT where Tyrion realizes that Tywin's given Jaime up for dead. Similar to how Balon was already building warships for an attack on the Iron Islands despite Theon still being in Stark's custody. It's clear Balon was going to sacrifice Theon for his goals.

Stannis doesn't know that Ned backed his claim. That's show-only. And Robb already crowned himself king before Stannis made a move. Because his desire for recognition isn't related to his quest for the throne. It's related to why he's so resentful and bitter. He wants recognition for what he's already done but he knows he'll never get it. Also the fact that But I agree with what you said. He's too proud by half.

I think you and I are interpreting " in spite of everything" differently. Stannis is petty and Stannis is envious and Stannis is proud but what people mistake for ambition is actually a desire for recognition. He's the middle child and he wanted to step out of Robert's shadow but he doesn't want to be king. Remember how he often wonders why Robert and are my wanted the crown and "the gold is cold and heavy on the head" speech. I think it's one of the most common fundamental errors that some people fall into when it comes to Stannis and I do think that it's partly because some people have TV Stannis on their minds. See, Stannis' story isn't about Also just to let you know I don't think you can say

I concur. shimpy's starting to get to some of the good parts : )

I don't think its anything about an issue with depiction. It really is that they're two different characters. For example compare what GRRM says about Stannis versus what D&D say about Stannis. I mean D&D think of Stannis as an ambitious person whilst the author has been quoted saying Personally, I think Stannis is a dutiful not ambitious person. Duty is what he's built his life around. And I think part of the fandom's so wrapped around the idea that everyone has a hidden motive and not saying what they mean that they miss that Stannis is one of the few people who don't engage in that. Stannis says what he thinks and everyone can be damned if they don't like that. It's what makes him unique but also personally unlikeable. Also

Well I wouldn't say he doesn't believe it. The way I see it: He feels emotionally guilty although the logical part of his head is telling him how could he have anything to do with Renly's death. It's something that'll fester in the back of his head until he dies. I mean if he didn't give the order to kill Renly to Mel and maybe if he later realized that Mel kiled Renly then he would've logically thought hat he didn't really have anything to do with Renly's death. It was all done of Mel's free will. Little does he know that Mel used his life force to kill Renly.

@shimpy I wouldn't factor in Show Stannis because at the end of the the day, Book Stannis and Show Stannis are very different characters. My opinion is that Stannis isn't the type that lies. And in that moment with Davos talking about his dreaming, he's being surprisingly very vulnerable. And if he was lying then he wouldn't have brought up that much detail at all. There's a little more evidence later that I'm thinking of as well but I do think GRRM wanted to keep it ambiguous as well.

I'll have to big quote a really good ASOIAF essay writer here: However, I do not believe that Stannis engaged in the ritual with the conscious intent to kill Renly, nor do I believe that Melisandre told him the true purpose of said ritual. Stannis tells us this directly: For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, “I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly’s dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood.” Stannis looked down at his hands. “I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke my hands were clean.” For those who are skeptical of Stannis’ protestations, we might call this being in denial, but I don’t think there’s a strong argument for Stannis consciously lying to Davos – if that was what he was after, why not just stop with “I was still abed when he died“? Why go into the dream? And while we’re at it, Stannis isn’t really the type of person who would feel the need to lie about killing a traitor to a bannerman. When viewed in context, I think we should take him at his word – that Stannis subconsciously experienced the assassination of Renly but did not order it. Earlier in the same chapter, when the parlay is debating whether Brienne killed Renly, Stannis cuts across the argument by saying “the Lord of Light willed that my brother die for his treason.” For all that Stannis might not be the most fervent R’hllorite, he clearly has come to believe in Melisandre’s prophecies: “Ser Cortnay will be dead within the day. Melisandre has seen it in the flames of the future…Her flames do not lie. She saw Renly’s doom as well. On Dragonstone she saw it, and told Selyse. Lord Velaryon and your friend Salladhor Saan would have had me sail against Joffrey, but Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm’s End, I would win the best part of my brother’s power, and she was right.” To me, the fact that Stannis believes Melisandre’s prophecies that both men would die is persuasive evidence that Stannis viewed Renly’s death as fated to happen, and therefore not requiring his intervention to come to pass; this is backed up by the consistency of his attitude toward the deaths of Renly and Penrose. Equally importantly, if we compare his reporting of Melisandre’s predictions to what we saw from Maester Cressen’s perspective, it seems quite clear that Melisandre is not telling Stannis “if you go here, I can summon a shadow-assassin,” but rather attributing her own actions to the hand of R’hllor, which further explains Stannis’ beliefs (more of this in a bit). This last part is especially important, when we consider the context of Stannis’ orders later. ----later: As I’ve discussed above, I think there’s a strong case that Stannis didn’t order Renly’s death. On the other hand, how do we interpret Stannis’ order to Davos to escort Melisandre under the walls of Storm’s End? “I do not require your understanding. Only your service….” “What would you have me do?” “Nothing you have not done before. Only land a boat beneath the castle, unseen, in the black of night. Can you do that?” Arguably, this is the best evidence that he was responsible. After all, if Stannis is giving an order that makes deliberate use of a shadow-assassin, then he must know about them, and given that Renly’s death was only two weeks prior to this chapter, so Occam’s Razor would suggest that the same was true in that case. However, this conclusion gets more complicates when we consider these scene in light of what we discussed above – namely Stannis’ intent and Melisandre’s forthcomingness. As I’ve shown above, Stannis believes that both deaths were inevitable – indeed, there’s twice as much evidence that Stannis felt that ordering a death was unnecessary as there is that he ever gave any order of any kind. More importantly, this theory of the crime requires Melisandre to have been totally forthcoming with Stannis about her magic. Not only is this completely contrary to her behavior in the Prologue, with Davos in this chapter, as well as in ASOS and ADWD, but it makes little sense from her perspective. Coming to Stannis with the proposal is a huge risk – not only is it quite likely that someone like Stannis would recoil at the thought of kinslaying, but her argument would undercut her attempts to establish herself as a prophetess. Here’s what I think happened: we know that Melisandre predicted Renly’s death and that “Melisandre told me that if I went to Storm’s End, I would win the best part of my brother’s power,” and that she told him that “I must have the boy,” but not yet why. She then passes off her primal rituals (sleeping with Stannis both times and her travel underneath Storm’s End) as a holy rite meant to garner R’hllor’s favor (which is absolutely in keeping with her modus operandi) and kills both men, while passing it off as the actions of her god (which advances her agenda). Now, I would say that Stannis probably harbors some suspicions – he’s an intelligent man, capable of putting two and two together – but consciously he doesn’t know or perhaps doesn’t want to know. Indeed, for someone with Stannis’ ends-centric philosophy and his attitudes to Melisandre, he might well have not cared. Melisandre is a woman with power, who can work magic and see the future – if she says that she needs to be underneath the walls of Storm’s End to speak to R’hllor, why should he care whether she’s actually talking to god or is a powerful magus? The castle falls either way. - Race For The Iron Throne

There's actually quite a bit of evidence that Stannis didn't consciously choose to murder Renly. He certainly doesn't know about the shadowbaby.Also, help, guys but how do I put thing in spoilers?

He didn't put LF in power. He told Tyrion to chop off the heads of whoever was playing them for fools and then "Tyrion" left him in power. But that also proves as a mistake later on considering the fact that he stole Sansa and helped kill Joff off which led to Tyrion turning against them. LF ran circles around Tywin. Stannis had the right idea. The best thing to do was scourge that court clean.

Edmure literally screwed the entire family. He pushed Tywin out of the jaws of defeat. Tywin would've ended up stuck between Edmure and Robb when the Blackwater happened so he wouldn't have arrived at the last minute to surprise Stannis. Stannis would've executed the royal family which means no Tyrell alliance. Also he took the Northern troops that were at the Twins to make sure of Walder's good behavior to reinforce his army. Add in that he got his Riverlands forces chopped to smithereens by Jaime before the North entered the war losing half his strength and then convincing Robb to let the Riverland troops defend their homes which ended up costing Robb a big part of his numerical advantage over Tywin (he had double Tywin's army numbers at the end of AGOT). Enough so that he couldn't besiege Tywin at Harrenahl.

I used to think so too, but no. Edmure vastly exceeded his orders. He went from defending his castle to fortifying a 250 mile long battlefront by trying to hold the Red Fork and Tumblestone.He also assumed command of the Riverland theatre's operations despite the fact that he had no authority in doing so. If it wasn't for Edmure, Robb would've won the war.

Something else to note is that Greywind isn't actually suspicious of any the actual Westerlings just those related to them and some of their household. I definitely don't think Tywin set Robb up with the Westerlings but I do think he took advantage of that when Robb decided to try to take "responsibility" and marry her.

@shimpy The reason most people didn't spot the RW or Robb's demise coming was because even if it was telegraphed to us, the books overwhelm us, especially in the HOTU chapter, with so much information that you end up not digging to deeply into it or eventually forget about it. Also I think you're giving Tywin more credit that he deserves. I can't say why yet but just wait and see is all I can say.

You might be getting g a little ahead of yourself. Just a minor correction but Grey Wind doesn't dislike Jeyne. They seem to get along. Anyways I hated Talisa too. The culmination of their plotline made TV Robb look selfish and much less sympathetic. It didn't help that Talisa was written terribly in general.

GRRM actually answered this for us. "Are all the Stark children wargs/skin changers with their wolves?" "To a greater or lesser degree, yes, but the amount of control varies widely." Also hello, shimpy, I've been lurking for a while but have now decided to pop out and say hello.