WindyNights

I'm not saying she's not a villain. I'm saying she doesn't do enough bad things to justify being rooted against so hard as opposed to her book counterpart. I'm primarily talking content here. I know the audience still sees Cersei as a big villain because the show still frames her as one. I dunno maybe I grew a soft spot for Carol. But I feel like I shouldn't have so it feels weird.

The only problem I have with Carol is that she doesn't even deserve the spot of being a villain at this point. So I can't really properly root against her. I mean she doesn't even do many heinous things in the show besides kill a wolf and commit incest to produce Joffrey. I mean I guess you could squeeze in killing Robert but honestly, Robert sucked.But I wouldn't say she has more layers than her book counterpart just that she has different ones. Carol is a good character in her own right though. Personally I feel they should've

"I am no fit man to be a King's Hand." "There is no man fitter." Stannis sheathed Lightbringer, gave Davos his hand, and pulled him to his feet. "I am lowborn," Davos reminded him. "An upjumped smuggler. Your lords will never obey me." "Then we will make new lords." Such a great moment for Stannis and Davos. Also that speech that the Hound gives is so good. I suspect that his knight speech is GRRM's view on it too.

I think I remember GRRM saying that they lack some of the ingredients for gunpowder or something.

Lol. You're basing this on very little. I'm with shimpy on this that Tyrion's reaction had less to do with this being wrong and more to do with her reaction to him. The core of Tyrion's character is that he wants to be loved and honestly the way it read to me, him acting the nice guy was a play at getting her to like him more. There is also a very specific callback to Tywin when Sansa uses the word "Never" to Tyrion.

@nksaemi To answer your question, yes, she does know. And you're thinking of Ellaria.

@hecate Off the top of my head, I believe it's in the first Bran chapter of AGOT when he says "Let's see what my sons are doing" in reference to Jon and Robb when they find the direwolves. It's not in reference to Bran and Robb because Bran is right next to him A 12 year old can't consent.

I'm not going to judge people by Westerosi standards. I'm going to judge them by my standards and ultimately Tyrion did molest Sansa and had intent to rape her.

To add to that, GRRM said that one of his inspirations for this series was The Accursed Kings by Maurice Druon. Read the first book and there's a part where he gets attacked by a stag during a hunt and then shortly afterwards dies (although not due to the stag but It did help) and then his stupid cruel son inherits. Reminded me of King Robert

It's just in-grained in their culture and Ned and Cat are very much a product of that culture. And to be fair, Cat and Sansa were in completely different circumstances along with being different ages as Cat was 16 and not 12. 14 but you're right Dany's age is unrealistic to me. I like to think Westerosi years are longer than our years so I add one year to everyone's age. Sansa acts her age though and is described as a 12 year old. Although Sansa is on the verge of being 13 at the point where shimpy is at as she has a late year birthday.

@nksarmi There was a bedding ceremony between Ned and Cat. Him preventing it was show-only. It was D&D trying to create some parallel between Saint Tyrion and Ned. Anyways I give Tyrion no brownie points because he still molested a 12 year old girl, wanted to bone her and almost raped her.

I think the reason they're so ethereal and wise and don't act like real children is because they're part Children of the Forest.

Show-only though.

Actually he has called Jon his son before. He doesn't really often refer to Jon as his blood and not his son. I think that only happens once in convo with Cat.

@stillshimpy The woman with the laughing purple eyes is Ashara Dayne. In the first book, Cat mentions that it is rumored in Winterfell that she's Jon's true mother. And when Cat confronted Ned about her, it was the only time he ever scared her when he told her that all she needs to know is that Jon is his blood and demanded to know where she heard that name from and from then on the rumors stopped. Also about that Missandei thing, why would you be grateful for that???

11, 000 was the full strength of the Riverlands as the Riverlands had received a lot of casualties before and Robb took some of the Riverlands forces west with him. Plus some of the Freys were with Roose, I believe. Agree to disagree then.

@lady s I think realizing how bad the advice Edmure gave him is what made him think less of his uncle. The thing is that despite Edmure's rank, Blackfish and Robb didn't think too highly of him. They underestimated Edmure's Independce since really did expect Edmure to he a Ser Rodrik. Minor correction: not tens of thousands just a few thousand

Well Robb said his job is is to hold Riverrun. defending a 250 mile south of Riverrun Iand trying to win the war is not holding Riverrun. I think the idea was that telling Edmure too much would cause him to fuck up. He'd do something stupid so they kept it simple and told just enough which 'caused him to fuck up. I mean when Robb left, he definitely figured that Edmure wouldn't have the manpower to confront Tywin. Cat says as much but Edmure decided to call all the riverlords back to Riverrun. To Edmure's credit, his plan to beat Tywin was decent. But anyways, it's kinda apparent that Robb and Brynden thought Edmure was a fool. They should've replaced him with someone else or given the command to Brynden to hold Riverrun while Robb takes Edmure with him west.

You make a good point but Stannis is far easier to handle than Tywin is. It doesn't have to do with ability but rather that the Tyrells would back Tywin but not Stannis. To answer yor question it wasn't because Robb was fighting for an independent Kingdom of the North. It's because he was fighting for an independent Kingdom of the North and the Trident. Robb would've probably still been alive if he just decides to leave the Riverlands to themselves after Ned was executed. Robb's terms were give my sisters back, the betrothal of Joff and Sansa is at an end, the IT has no more hegemony over the North and Trident, these are my borders, give me lots of noble hostages which I will release year by year for your good behavior. I'll keep Jaime prisoner for a while as well to ensure Tywin's good behavior. Robb does

Edited out ---- okay so I guess we agree on the Sansa part : p @nk Eh, okay, let's just agree to disagree. Edmure's actually one of my favorite characters btw. He's an actual lord that shows some social responsibility.

Edmure didn't take advantage of a situation to win the war. He was creating a situation to win the war. Also he took overstepped his boundaries by taking command of the entire Riverlands operations despite the fact that he had no authority in doing so even giving orders to Roose's northern troops. In addition to that, he was recalling the riverlords that were defending their homes after Robb left. You see Robb left him in charge of Riverrun and its forces not the Riverlands. He was charged with explicitly holding Riverrun not concocting a battle plan to take Tywin out. You don't understand. It did lose Robb the war. The plan was to catch Tywin between Robb's army and Edmure's army. Encircled, Tywin would be destroyed. Even if Tywin survives that he would also be too far west for him to join up with the Tyrells for an attack on Stannis. Stannis then takes KL and kills Joffrey and Tommen. Without Joff and Tommen, the war is over as the Lannister-Baratheons end up dead and the Tyrells would have no reason to join up with Tywin without an heir to marry Marge too. Then it becomes a matter of whether Robb would bend the knee to Stannis or not. Stannis' army would be significantly less of a challenge than a combined Lannister- Tyrell army. How would Sansa be worse off under Stannis than Cersei? I mean they literally killed her dad in front of her, beat Sansa with swords and stripping her naked as well as marrying to the ugliest guy in Westeros. I think what you're referring to are the soldiers in Stannis' army having their blood up and start raping and looting everything. But that's moot anyways since Cersei said she was going to have Ilyn kill her and everyone in that room if Stannis won.

Actually Ned was planning to get his daughters out of there before shit hit the fan. The problem is that Sansa ratted Ned out to Cersei because she didn't want to leave thereby allowing Cersei to block that move. Edmure's one mistake cost Robb the entire war whereas none of Cat's mistakes by themselves would've been enough to do so. Againi, they told him to hold Riverrun. A 250 mile front is not holding Riverrun. Hell, Edmure was actually trying to win the war without Robb out of a bruised ego. Yeah, Robb could've left Edmure with a little more information but they didn't trust him enough not to act obvious. It's not even that mistake alone. He got slaughtered by Jaime in the field reducing Riverlander troop numbers and then he gives Robb especially bad advice telling him to let the Riverland lords go back to their holdfasts to protect their homes losing Robb another 10,000 men because Edmure tries to naively protect everyone. It's out of good intentions, yeah, but it doesn't make it good advice. Also add on that he took out the troops at the Twins that were supposed to guarantee Walder's good behavior and well, yeah.

Edmure and Cat. I say this as a big Edmure fan though. But Edmure's role in Robb's defeat is always downplayed compared to Cat's by people. As many mistakes as Cat made, everything would've turned out fine if Edmure did as he was told. Defend Riverrun not a 250 mile front. Add in that he took out the troops meant for Old Walder's good behavior as well.

I would really say it's less everything is Cat's fault and more most things are the Tullys' faults. Edmure was pivotal in losing the war in the south for Stannis and Robb, Cat did everything you described above and Lysa started everything with her letter to Cat and kept the Arryn forces from joining Robb. That's an extra 40,000 men that Robb could've used to attack KL.

For a number of reasons.I think because Walder and Robb hadn't yet decided on who he was going to marry and that would take to much time. Robb was in a hurry to get south. I suspect Walder also didn't want to do it there and then and tie his horse to a losing one. He probably wanted to wait and see before he fully committed one of his daughters to Robb. And then there was the fact that Walder was already milking for all that was worth. He may have wanted a marriage on the spot but Cat probably blocked it.