Lobsel Vith
-
Posts
456 -
Joined
Content Type
Blogs
Gallery
Downloads
Discussion
Posts posted by Lobsel Vith
-
-
1 minute ago, Lady Calypso said:
That was him in the first few episodes, yes. He wasn't a believer in this whole "these agents can save the world" mantra that he had been told on and on. He had to grow to learn that. His actions from the first few episodes are wrong in our perspective. Him taking that job from Kasius was the worst we've seen him, absolutely.
Let's be frank here: slavery isn't one of those things that's defensible no matter what your societal norms are. It's inexcusable, and I find it frustrating when it's framed as something that is acceptable or understandable simply because of Deke's background (because it's not). That we've seen characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben only highlights that using his background doesn't work; Deke has no excuse. Deke also said he worked for Kasius, so selling Daisy wasn't the only thing he did for Kasius.
2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:Coulson locked him up when he found out (Deke had to escape on his own), he got punched several times, and Daisy did not say the words "I forgive you" at any point. But, taking a look at Deke's perspective, he was a very cynical person, growing up in a world built on survival. These strangers showed up, he found out that they were destined to save them, and he also found out Daisy was there. In his mind at that point, before knowing her, she was the one to destroy the world. That's all he's ever known. His world is not the same as our world. The world had already been destroyed for him; there was nothing to save. He had to learn to behave differently. And he's still working on it.
Deke escaped on his own, but the team still brought Deke along, despite having no reason to trust him. And let me be clear on something: I have no sympathy for a slaver. I had to put up with Ward in the Framework, where Ward's victims were used to try and elicit sympathy for Ward (which was, quite frankly, a disgusting narrative choice).
There are people who will always be more sympathetic to characters like Ward, Deke, and now Fitz. You can look at the responses in a myriad of communities to see that. People said they hated Daisy for shooting Ward after he kidnapped her and brought her to Whitehall. There are people who said they hated Daisy for trying to save Simmons from Kasius, but Fitz tried to rescue her without a plan and people didn't mind. Deke is already being woobified by a number of people. There are people who said they hated Daisy for telling Fitz that she would never forgive him while he was torturing the inhibitor out of her. There's a very stark difference in how characters like Ward, Deke, and Fitz are treated in comparison to someone like Daisy.
Look at the past episode: Fitz tortured Daisy, but she's sidelined to focus on the FitzSimmons romance, with Simmons even saying that his actions are a "gray area" despite the fact that they aren't. Deke selling Daisy into slavery, and now Fitz's actions, are given a huge pass.
3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:I look back to Robbie's arc last season. At the beginning, he attacked Daisy and knew what Ghost Rider was doing inside of him. He wasn't perfect either, nor was he saving anyone; in fact, he became a vigilante by killing people.
Let's not compare two superpowered people fighting each other over a misunderstanding (which is as old as the Golden Age of comics, and a trope that still pops up in modern comics) with someone selling a person into slavery. The comparison doesn't work for obvious reasons.
4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:I don't like Deke as much as I liked Robbie. And yes, I am aware that both men are different and have gone through different things. But they have similar beginning arcs. And, at least neither are Ward.
Deke isn't much better than Ward.
5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:I think that's an important thing we can always take away. Deke and Robbie are both grey characters who have done bad things for selfish reasons, but they do still have a good heart deep down inside. They both have very troubling pasts because of the worlds they grew up in and the circumstances that led them down this road, but they also managed to make better choices after knowing the Agents, something that Ward never learned.
No - Robbie is a character who killed child rapists and white supremacists. He's an anti-hero in the vein of the Punisher. Deke is someone who engaged in slavery and helped a tyrant remain in power. There is a world of difference between the two. Deke isn't grey - slavery isn't a gray area.
-
1
-
-
25 minutes ago, Froippi said:
yea but I really don't think he has any reason to lie about his mom I understand what your saying but I also looking at why would Deke lie about his mother and cannot find one at this point
Deke working for Kasius, constructing the Framework and using it to help enforce the status quo, and selling Daisy into slavery for money are examples at how Deke has not been trying to 'save the world'. Actions speak louder than words.
-
1
-
-
On 3/25/2018 at 12:16 PM, tessaray said:
I don't think Fitz was instantly forgiven for what happened in the Framework - they went from that straight into the future insanity, with no time for them to really process. Fitz actually had more time after the team disappeared for his mental state to become worse. Since they've been back they've been focused on other crises. As for Jemma, she's trying to make sense of it, not handwaving it but obviously a mental break makes it more complicated. "In sickness and in health" and all that. She can't just walk away.
Daisy forgave Fitz for being tortured shortly after being brought out of the Framework. Simmons didn't hold it against Fitz that he shot her or tried to murder her; she was making sure he was okay at the diner. Mack wasn't angry at Fitz for losing his daughter for a second time when they reunited. Fitz was forgiven pretty immediately for what he did, as exemplified by the examples I cited; his mental state doesn't change that everyone pretty much forgave him for what he did.
On 3/25/2018 at 12:52 PM, VCRTracking said:Coulson and May punching him and Fitz wanting to cut his throat and the characters barely tolerating him now aren't enough for you but it is for most viewers. The fact that he didn't do anything else shitty is why they put up with him. They didn't "take him along" he somehow ended up back in time instead of exploding along with Enoch.
Fitz and Simmons talking about murdering Deke in one episode, and in the next being completely okay with him, is an example of how the show handwaved Deke's actions. Daisy performing emotional support for Deke in the same episode is another example. He sold someone into slavery for money, and he never paid any price for his actions. Deke being brought along at all - when there was no reason for anyone to bring him, especially when Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons wanted him dead in that episode - highlights the very issue that I previously brought up.
As for "most viewers" - are you referencing the people who vilified Daisy to frame Deke as a hero for selling her into slavery? The same people who had no problem with Fitz pulling off a rescue attempt with no plan, but treat Daisy with contempt despite Kasius making it clear he might have killed Simmons had Abby failed her fight? The same kind of people who have vilified Daisy now because she said she would never forgive Fitz for torturing her for a second time? The kind of people who prioritized Ward over Daisy seasons ago, despite him threatening to rape her at one point? Trust me when I say that pointing to those kinds of viewers doesn't support your argument in the least.
On 3/25/2018 at 4:19 PM, Ceindreadh said:Deke ended up in the present day by accident, because he was trying to help the team leave the future.
I'm not talking about Deke ending up in the present, I'm addressing Deke being brought along in the first place - which is what I was addressing in the post you replied to. That people need to fanwank reasons to explain why Deke was brought along in the Future Arc (because the show provides absolutely no reason at all within the narrative of the storyline) is the very issue that I'm addressing. There's no canon reason why Deke was brought along.
21 hours ago, Froippi said:I do believe Deke said it best he always has the pressure of saving the world on his shoulders or something like I really think the pressure cause him to take this route not that its a excuse cause its not
Deke has flip-flopped on his reasons for selling Daisy into slavery (he's not the most trusthyworthy person), and I don't think that we should frame selling a person into slavery as something good. That Kasius was planning to wipe out the Lighthouse after he sold Daisy to the highest bidder should be sufficient to highlight that Deke was not in the right.
-
1
-
-
8 hours ago, tessaray said:
It's weird but I kind of feel like that if they actually prevent the world from being ripped apart, Daisy might forgive Fitz more readily than we think. Because Quake is who she is and running from/denying that because she believes the "Destroyer of Worlds" thing is hurting her in a different way. (Not that it justifies it - at all.)
Why would Daisy forgive Fitz - realistically speaking? Instead of simply talking to Daisy about the situation, he tortured the inhibitor right out of her, and she was in pain the entire time (if you've seen gifs of the scene, those moments are gruesome). It's a bit much to say that what Fitz did was right when he went about things in a horrible, and unnecessary, way.
2 hours ago, Affogato said:Yes but they are also hinting strongly that it is necessary ( that Fitz gave into his dark side because his lighter half won’t do what needs to be done) so it may end up indirectly saving the situation.
Daisy using her powers to resolve the issue with the fissure is one thing - Fitz deciding to have a robot endanger Mack and Yo-yo, kidnapping Daisy, painfully removing the inhibitor in such a way that it "traumatized" her is another matter entirely.
-
1
-
-
10 hours ago, VCRTracking said:
I really want to watch the version of the show you're watching where the team have apparently kept Deke around just because they like him and think he's a swell guy.
Considering Deke is only there because he's a FitzSimmons Easter Egg since there's no actual reason the team took him along in the first place - and there's no reason why the characters completely forgot about their desire to kill him from one episode to the next - means that the show handwaved what he did. It's the reason why no one currently holds what he did against him now (presumably since characters bringing up his slaver past might impact how some viewers see him now). And since Fitz was instantly forgiven for what he did in the Framework, it's hard for me not to see a pattern of this show having characters cross moral lines only to give up on addressing it in any meaningful way. What Fitz did in this episode was horrible, but we already had Simmons pacifying him afterwards, even when he was justifying what he did. I have no real confidence this show will actually have meaningful ramifications for Fitz crossing the line.
-
2
-
-
5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:
What really hurt is Fitz's friendship with Daisy and Mac being damaged possibly permanently. Other shows recently where friendships seem to have been destroyed have I want to believe in these cases they can be repaired and things can be forgiven but it's going to take time and this is probably the final season.
They may just pull a Deke and have Mack & Daisy not address it at a certain point. Maybe they'll only be angry for an episode or two. That's the problem with having characters cross lines, and then not addressing it properly in the context of the story.
-
1
-
-
3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:
Poor Daisy, though. She didn't really get to see this side of Leopold while in the Framework, so at least she's more in the know of what he had gone through, and what her Fitz still has inside of him.
Daisy has already seen this side of him before. Fitz tortured her in the Framework.
-
3
-
-
I wonder if Fitz's actions in this episode are going to be properly addressed or simply handwaved. This season hasn't exactly held certain characters accountable when they cross the lines. I suppose we'll eventually find out whether this time will be different.
-
5
-
-
5 hours ago, Lunula said:
I think my view on Deke differs than some here. First, I don't think he sold Daisy into slavery for money. I'm sure some will point to semantics, but first - they were all already enslaved
No, the denizens of the Lighthouse weren't all enslaved - they lived under a tyrannical regime, but there's a difference between living under oppression and literally being the property of someone else like Daisy was.
5 hours ago, Lunula said:Daisy was being her normal "Act first, think later" and had no plan at all when she pushed forward.
You mean, the way that Fitz had no plan and literally suggested to Enoch at one point that they simply shoot their way out of there (despite being a Stark-level genius)? It's a bit odd how Daisy is heavily criticized in the name of excusing Deke's actions but no one points to how Fitz also took action without having an actual plan beforehand. Fitz also tried to talk to Simmons despite how easily he could have been overheard by anyone, and was nearly caught by Kasius in the attempt (despite Enoch's warnings).
5 hours ago, Lunula said:Deke tried to reason with her, but I guess she felt like an expert on the dynamics of this (foreign) new world after being there for 1 day.
I guess Daisy refusing to trust Deke - after scene after scene explaining why she came to a position where she didn't trust him (from his mercenary attitude towards the group to being horrified at the Framework network she felt he was using to take advantage of people living there to him claiming that she destroyed the world and then saying a parallel universe version of her did so) - means that you think Deke was completely justified to engage in slavery.
5 hours ago, Lunula said:Her rushing in likely would've resulted in not only her death, but the deaths of many others. Deke knew this and thought that turning her in was the only way to stop her.
That must explain why Deke showed absolutely no concern for the people of the Lighthouse when he sided with Coulson for the expressed purpose of wanting to speak with his father. In fact, it was Flint - not Deke - who continually showed concern for the people living there. It's almost as if we should take Deke's actions and behavior - and not his claims when he's trying to downplay his actions in selling Daisy to Kasius - into account.
5 hours ago, Lunula said:At least his solution, as flawed as it was, left the door open for her (and the others) to live. The fact that he got money for it made him an opportunist IMO, not a slaver. I definitely do not see him as ambiguously good/bad like Ward.
It left the door open for her to be tortured, raped, or killed - that's the reality of the situation he put her in. What he did was monstrous. He's a grown man, and he's responsible for his own actions. I've seen people in this community criticize other characters for much less over the years.
-
1
-
-
On 3/18/2018 at 7:03 AM, Affogato said:
I think you may be confusing ‘excuse’ with ‘reason’
No, because Deke selling someone into slavery was excused, and the reasons he expressed for doing so flip-flopped to him romanticizing his actions by vilifying his victim or him bringing up his sad childhood as if he's a watered down version of Ward.
On 3/18/2018 at 7:03 AM, Affogato said:I think you may be confusing ‘excuse’ with ‘reason’ It is a lot easier to deal with someone’s actions if you can understand why they did them, even if you wouldn’t do the same thing. And, while slavery is a hard ‘no’ for me it clearly crops up in many societies widely separated by time and geography. Are all people in these societies, the Bantu as a whole for example, evil?
I'd say selling someone into slavery for money is one of those scenarios where you don't excuse the person simply because they had a hard life or look a certain way - it's that simple for me. I've dealt with years of people doing exactly that when it came to Ward - he worked for an offshoot of Nazis, willingly worked for them despite their plans to commit genocide, murdered a plethora of innocent people, and threatened to "take what [he] wants" from Daisy because he thought doing so would awaken feelings in her for him. And people excused Ward for everything he did for the same reasons people are excusing Deke for what he's done. It's a bit tired at this point.
On 3/18/2018 at 7:03 AM, Affogato said:Also our heroes are responsible for summarily taking freedom away from a lot of people by killing them. Libertarians would say this is better and so would I, sometimes, but it is worth thinking about.
Let's not pretend that taking down bad guys is the same as selling someone into slavery.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, blugirlami21 said:
I personally don't have a problem with Deke. He isn't anywhere near Ward's level of evil, not by a longshot. He decided not to trust Daisy based on what he thought he knew about her at the time. He prob won't be the first or last to do so. He was willing to die for the cause, I'm not sure what more we can ask from the character.
He sold someone into slavery for money. That's not something I'm inclined to handwave just because he disliked Daisy. And his hollow sacrifice means nothing when it's a lazy narrative attempt to give Deke some bonus points without him actually sacrificing anything when characters like Trip and Andrew made genuine sacrifices on this show that lead to an actual demise.
25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:I don't think you can compare Deke to Ward. Even with the abused childhood stuff, they always depicted him as a despicable villain right to the end when Coulson killed him. There was no redemption for him no matter how much his fans wanted it.
I don't agree. You can compare Deke to Ward when Deke brings up his childhood as an excuse for what he did to Daisy the same way that the SWW fandom used Ward's childhood as an excuse for what he did as a villain. We know that Deke worked for Kasius (by his own admission), and we know he sold at least one person into slavery for money; sure, we aren't familiar with all his potential crimes the way we're cognizant about the atrocities committed by Ward, but it's not difficult to understand that he did some terrible things if he was working for Kasius.
Frankly, Deke is only "redeemed" because the show handwaved what he did to Daisy, and had the characters completely ignored their initial reactions towards him for no actual reason - it was simply Daisy, Fitz, and Simmons no longer wanting him dead or being angry with him with no explanation given for the dramatic shift. Even allowing him with the group at the time made absolutely no sense, and requires fan theories to try and even make sense out of that asinine decision.
25 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:Sure they showed the Framework version was good when someone other than Garrett had recruited him but that ship had sailed and it's a "What could have been".
The storyline used Ward's victims to prop him, including Victoria Hand, and they ignored an opportunity to finally explore Trip's character to, instead, focus on someone who already had three seasons of screentime (and I'd argue that he had a season and a half more of screentime that he should've had at that point). Trying to elicit sympathy for Ward in an anti-Nazi storyline was more than a little ridiculous.
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, tessaray said:
I don't think you can compare Deke and Ward. I didn't like Ward and don't miss him. Deke might be redeemable, or not. We'll see where the writing goes.
Ward's childhood was used to justify his actions. Deke's childhood is used to justify his actions. Ward crossed a serious line when he threatened to rape Daisy. Deke did something egregious when he sold Daisy into slavery for money. There are comparisons to be made between the two. Deke comes across like a 'what if' scenario if the SWW fandom had gotten their way and Ward was reintroduced into the cast with everyone handwaving what he did, which is exactly what happened when everyone just conveniently forgot all about their anger towards Deke for engaging in slavery. Both cases are ridiculously annoying when people try to justify either man for doing something reprehensible.
-
1
-
-
1 hour ago, Froippi said:
Ok thanks idk that particular fan base had to be ignore sometimes idk what else they said though
It's an issue that they always frame Ward's victims as the bad guys for not going out of their way to turn Ward into a good guy. Fitz is bad for wanting Ward dead after he sustained brain damage because of his murder attempt, Daisy is bad for shooting Ward after he kidnapped her, even Bobbi is bad despite Ward torturing her. It's an issue that they acted like Ward popped puppies and peed rainbows despite being a villain, to the point they vilified Ward's victims to make Ward seem better.
It's why the way some people try to whitewash what Deke did rubs me the wrong way - it's something people had to deal with for years on this show (and still do in certain places where the Ward fans remain, like reddit), and seeing a repeat is more than a little annoying.
-
1
-
-
On 3/14/2018 at 2:52 AM, Gothish520 said:
Ward was evil, a terrible person who did many terrible things. Deke is nowhere close to being any sort of version of Ward. He's a survivor who did one bad thing in a bad situation.
Deke sold a person into slavery for money, and then flip-flopped on his reasons for doing so, including using a Ward excuse about his childhood when confronted by Coulson. Let's not act as if he simply left the toilet seat up. What he did was monstrous. And let's not forget that this wasn't the only thing he did for Kasius, as he admitted that he did other work for him as well, so it's not as if there may not have been other victims.
Given that we've met characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben, Deke's childhood is not an excuse for his behavior. I'm honestly surprised at this fandom's willingness to hold other characters accountable for much more minor slights yet are willing to give a huge pass to slavery, of all things.
On 3/15/2018 at 4:35 AM, Ceindreadh said:One bad thing that we know about because it affected the team.
Dont get me wrong though, I don’t think he’s irredeemable. He was in a bad situation and doing what he felt he had to do to survive and I think he deserves a second chance.
Deke admitted to working for Kasius, so I certainly think what he's done is irredeemable. And this show did not need a watered down, one-dimensional version of Ward, and you can only milk the 'newcomer' aspect for so long before it becomes tiresome. I'm also not inclined to treat slavery as something that should simply be brushed aside because the show has handwaved the consequences of what Deke did simply because he's a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons fans.
3 hours ago, Froippi said:didn't that Ward fan base say the show would not last without them or am I wrong
Yes, that is one of the things they said.
-
2
-
-
7 hours ago, tessaray said:
AoS deserves some criticism on the diversity front - like most mainstream network shows. But focusing on Deke selling someone into slavery doesn't take into consideration that all humans in that future were basically slaves, even if it looked like there were some like Deke who were flying under the radar. Evil Overlords tend to ignore that stuff - allowing a limited amount of prohibited activity because it works to their benefit.
The denizens of the Lighthouse lived under tyranny, but that's not the same as slavery - there's a difference. And Deke admitted to working for Kasius - he wasn't flying 'under the radar', and even his Framework network had the sanction of the Kree.
7 hours ago, tessaray said:It seems to me that Coulson and crew are treating Deke like a collaborator, more or less. There are always collaborators in any subjugated population - like African slaves who were also overseers or Jewish guards in concentration camps. It's a complicated and sensitive subject that I don't feel up to making judgments about. I'm sure Deke thought turning in Daisy so he could help the others was really the right thing to do. Maybe we would too, if we were born into that environment. I hope not but we didn't see many heroes in that future. We saw survivors, survivors who did ugly things or turned a blind eye to those who did.
We've met characters like Tess, Flint, and Ben who illustrate that Deke's upbringing doesn't excuse his actions, and he shows absolutely no concern for any of the people once he agrees to work with Coulson because he thinks it'll give him a chance to speak with his father. He only brings them up when he wants to frame his actions as heroic and vilify Daisy for trying to save Jemma's life. I don't think that slavery needs to become an issue that we're willing to overlook simply because the person who engages in it had a difficult life. It's the kind of mindset that lead to the SWW fandom making excuses for every horrible thing Ward did because he had an awful childhood.
And I don't see why we need to be sympathetic to people who engage in slavery, particularly when one of the victims is part of the cast.
-
1
-
-
3 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:
Deke was more likeable this episode.. Still this part or ruby or hale or Caine or any combination of them coulda been played by actors of color...
The only long-term man of color this show has ever had (without killing them off) is Mack - Trip and Andrew were killed off after getting bits of storyline, Joey and Robbie didn't get much before their vanishing acts (Radcliffe and Deke, for example, were given considerably more), so it would've been nice if this season had been different and veered in another direction with a long-term character. If you didn't have the character sell someone into slavery (because the show has never properly handled that, and at this point Deke is basically just a walking easter egg for FitzSimmons with no real purpose except to be woobified because he's the grandson of Fitz and Simmons), it would've been nice. As it stands, it's one of the problems with AoS, and if this is the last season, it'll be one of the flaws with the show as a whole.
-
4
-
-
On 3/16/2018 at 1:04 AM, jhlipton said:
Don't blame the show; blame the actor. BJ Britt has been busy since first cast as DeathLok: On TV shows like UnReal, Pitch and Being Mary Jane, and in movies like Behind Enemy Lines.
I blame the show, and this kind of thinking was used to justify killing off Trip the first time, where some people simply assumed it was to accommodate BJ Britt despite the fact that he had given at least two separate interviews where he said he was completely unaware that he was going to be killed off. There's no evidence that the show was going to make a genuine effort to do right by Trip, and I'm not going to pretend that trying to elicit sympathy for Ward - in an anti-Nazi storyline, no less - isn't repugnant. His SWW fanbase trying to woobify him was bad enough.
-
1
-
-
2 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:
4) I thought it was interesting that Lash appeared as Coulson’s fear. Hive too, but I wish that had been Ward. I know, I complain about him coming back all the time, but this time I think it would have been earned. Coulson was able to always save his “daughters” but his “sons” were not always as lucky. Ward was the ones he lost. I wish we had seen more Coulson “failures.” The female agent from season one with the bomb in the eye. Blake, Trip, Victoria, or Rosalind.
I, on the other hand, am grateful that the show was actually able to (so far) go a season without clumsily inserting Ward, and since he was never really a part of the team, I wouldn't consider him Coulson's "son". He was a progeny of Garrett and a spy in Coulson's group, while Mike was someone Coulson saw potential in and tried to help in the first episode of the show.
-
11
-
-
Just now, Lady Calypso said:
Sure, they pandered to that fanbase, but that was a fake world, the real Ward was still a horrible person who never got redeemed, and even if Daisy found herself understanding him a bit better, she still never changed her mind about him as a person because he still did bad things. Plus, he never got brought out of the Framework, thank goodness. For them, I think they just wanted to have some fun with the Framework storyline and it was more about the actor than the character.
Using Ward's victims - including Victoria Hand - to elicit sympathy for Ward is something I'm not ever going to be comfortable with, and prioritizing Ward (who had three seasons of screentime) over Trip (who was marginalized in season two) doesn't help, particularly given that the Framework was supposed to be an anti-Nazi storyline.
2 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:With Deke, it's slightly more complicated because he did a bad thing, but it also makes sense for him fighting to survive in the crappy world he had to grow up in and we know it's wrong and he knew it was wrong, but for him, it was survive or be killed. It's just a clear flaw of his that he'll have to work on. Maybe, once they change the future, he'll either have to disappear (since he'll officially be an anomaly that doesn't belong there) or he'll have to learn how to survive in a different way in this new world. But his intentions were never of evil, in the way that Ward's was. His intentions were completely selfish. He's going to have to learn to be selfless, and he's at least been shown to be capable of doing that. That doesn't mean he's completely irredeemable, and it also doesn't mean his actions are forgiven or forgotten about.
We had to deal with three and a half seasons of Ward. I don't see why we have to deal with a watered down version of Ward who we're supposed to excuse for slavery because of his upbringing the way the SWW fandom expected everyone to forgive Ward because of his childhood.
4 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:I haven't seen anyone forgetting about his actions. If they had, Daisy would likely be flirting with Deke or being more friendly toward him. As it is, she's still snarking on him and keeping him at arm's length because of what he did.
They're using Daisy to provide emotional support for Deke, despite never establishing any reason why she would fill this role. It's annoying because Deke is simply there because the Script says he's supposed to be, rather than having an in-story reason for being part of the group (and I'm not talking about him being an easter egg for FitzSimmons).
6 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:Any other show, and yeah, Daisy would have already forgiven him and everyone would be buddy-buddy with Deke. That hasn't happened here, which is something that this show does very well in terms of continuity.
The show already handwaved his actions so I'm not sure how he's being held accountable for what he did, and his victim is still being used.
8 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:They don't dumb down their characters for plot. For example, Coulson could have easily fallen for Fake Mike's story, but he resisted for as long as he could, even as tempting and believable the story could have been.
They do - Coulson made a deal with Ward in season two despite having Mike available (and we saw how well trusting Ward went), and Deke was brought along despite selling someone into slavery and the team having no actual reason to trust him at that point.
-
2
-
-
3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:
The show has had a decent track record with shady characters not just getting their past discrepancies forgotten about. I was worried when the Ward thing happened, and then that took a pleasant turn and they never ever redeemed Ward or hooked him up with Daisy. I am forever thankful about that, and I don't think that'll change with Deke. And Deke's actions, though bad, were not nearly as bad as Ward's.
We had Ward in the Framework storyline, so the show did end up doing what a lot of people were concerned about simply because a segment of the fanbase refused to accept that Ward was a bad person (and that was time that could have been spent on a marginalized character like Trip). And Deke seems to be more of the same - a character who does something horrible and whose actions are excused for the same reasons fans excused Ward for his.
-
3
-
-
Just now, Lady Calypso said:
Well, now Deke actually has a reason for being there, and that is to start the ticking clock on when his connection to Fitz and Jemma will be revealed. After that, then he will probably die or disappear.
I'm not sure I think an easter egg warrants this much time or attention, and his inclusion - and everyone simply handwaving what he did - still makes no sense. And if Fitz and Simmons discover his connection, will that really matter? It's not like Deke is some child they need to take care of or anything like that.
-
7
-
-
I'm still not sure what the point of the early scene between Deke and Daisy was, besides reminding me that there's really no reason for Deke to be there or the show to handwave what he did.
Seeing Mike again was nice. He was used much more effectively this time than he was in season two, where he was quickly put out of commission.
Coulson's "fear" does seem to touch on Joss Whedon's comments about the film MCU ignoring AoS and how Coulson is "dead" as far as the films are concerned.
-
8
-
-
6 hours ago, Daltrey said:
Oh, come on! He's from a dystopian future where mankind was under the thumb of a dominant alien race and far removed from the atrocities of our not so distant past.
Tess and Flint are just two examples that you don't have to turn into a slaver simply because you grew up at the Lighthouse. It's also the excuse SWW fans used to justify the terrible things Ward did for three seasons - using his upbringing as a weak excuse to justify him doing all the terrible things that he did. It didn't work for Ward, and it doesn't work for Deke.
6 hours ago, Daltrey said:They all did what they could just to survive...can he not have a redemptive arc?
Deke deserves as much of a redemption arc as Ward. I don't see how I should forget that Deke is a slaver simply because he makes quips or hugged a tree.
6 hours ago, Daltrey said:Also, since you brought up ethnicity, despite the fates of Trip, Andrew, Joey and Robbie, the team is still predominantly POC. Fitz, Simmons and Coulson are white, Mac is black and Yo-Yo Hispanic, while both Daisy and May are Asian; Chloe Bennet was born Chloe Wang, as her father is Chinese.
Mack is also the only black man who can exist on this show without being killed off, and Yo-yo only become a regular member of the cast this season.
6 hours ago, Daltrey said:Other than maybe "Buffy", I would argue that Joss Whedon and the Mutant Enemy production company as a whole have a pretty good track record as far as representation goes.
You would be the first person I've ever read argue any such thing.
6 hours ago, Daltrey said:AOS is the last show I would be lobbing subtle accusations of racism at.
The presence of Ming-Na Wen and Chloe Bennet doesn't mean that the show can't be criticized for how it's handled characters like Trip, Andrew, Joey, and Robbie, especially when we see them making more of an effort with a white slaver than they ever did with those characters.
-
3
-
-
10 hours ago, Raja said:
Basically The Doctor was the endgame Framework Fitz since as a contemporary of Simmons who should have been at SHIELD Academy when Hydra revealed itself. The combination of tactical and technical skills needed to get overall command like Coulson is supposed to have "I am training you to command" rather then being a mission specialist, "she taught you how to fight". In this case his father remaining in his life must have taught Leopold to be a dirty fighter along with his engineering genius redirected due to Ophelia.
I respectfully disagree that the Doctor is the endgame for Fitz. There's an inconsistency when Fitz's role as the Doctor seemed to be geared towards the medical specialization - hence, the investigation into Inhuman biology and how Inhuman powers work. Yet Fitz was also constructing a machine - which is within Fitz's specialization, but it's also an entirely different scientific field. So we're asked to believe Fitz studied two entirely different scientific fields? And then Fitz is uber-proficient with guns in the following season, suggesting he studied combat - yet this isn't even eluded to in the actual Framework storyline. There are inconsistencies and no real overall plan.
4 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:To be fair, the team's last interaction with Deke was him sacrificing himself so Enoch could sacrifice himself and power the monolith to take them home.
Yet the writers had characters handwaving what Deke did prior to this - where Fitz and Simmons went from wanting to kill Deke in one episode, and then having no problem with him in the next episode with absolutely no explanation for the complete 180. Daisy does the same thing.
Also, I'm not sure why 'one good thing' is supposed to exonerate someone from a lifetime of bad deeds, particularly a heinous act committed against someone we've come to know for five years. And the nature of the act in question isn't one of those things that should be handwaved just because a person did a single good thing.
4 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:I don't think anyone forgot about the terrible things Ward did. Except for they way they treated Framework Ward who was legitimately a nicer guy, no one got over what Ward did. Coulson killed him on the blue planet, Jemma even hated him in the Framework, Fitz and May didn't get over it. And while Deke is no choir boy, I would not put what we saw of his actions in the same category as what Ward did.
I wrote that we are supposed to forget about it - we, as in the viewers. We're supposed to forget about it because it was poorly handwaved by the writers. And I'd say spending time on Ward in the Framework storyline is akin to that, where they devoted a great amount of time in an anti-Nazi storyline trying to convince viewers to feel sympathy for someone who did heinous things for three seasons.
4 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:The worst thing we saw Deke do was sell out Daisy to Kassius but they at least half assed explained that the did that in order to continue to be able to help them; which he did.
They had Deke give two ridiculously weak and different explanations for that which are as weak as Ward claiming that he never meant to kill Fitz and Simmons. And if the writers intended for Deke to be a long-term character, I don't see why they had him sell Daisy into slavery.
4 hours ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:And in the end, he was willing to give up his life so they could go back and change the future. I wasn't looking for Deke to come back (I would have preferred Flint) but if you line up Ward and Deke and ask me to pick one to stick around, I am going to pick Deke all day long. I don't ever want to see Ward again.
The difference is that I don't see why I need to deal with Ward or Space Ward. I don't understand why I'm supposed to feel bad for a Nazi or someone who sold a person into slavery. That Deke used his childhood as a defense when Coulson criticized him for what he did is precisely the problem I have - he's basically Ward, using an excuse to justify his actions, and we had Ward for three and a half seasons. I don't see the point in this new rendition of Ward.
I'd also question why - out of all the possible characters we could have had, such as possibly another man of color on a show that's killed off Trip and Andrew, and have Joey and Robbie very finite storylines - why they elected to add someone who engaged in slavery to the cast. I find it ridiculous.
-
2
-
S05.E14: The Devil Complex
in Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Fitz literally tortured Daisy. The screenshots of the episodes show how disgusting his actions are. To say that it's the same as what other characters have done is simply not accurate.
The argument doesn't work given the situations. Daisy was under Hive's control; she had no agency. Simmons snapped Fitz out of his delusion, and he not only continued to torture the inhibitor out of her, but he justified his actions afterwards.
So it's okay that he tortured her instead of simply talking to her?
Fitz could have easily spoken with Daisy about the situation. That's the entire issue here. Nearly killing Mack and Yo-yo, kidnapping Daisy, putting her in a position where she ended up "traumatized" (and that could have killed her) was all unnecessary.
Considering Deke sold someone into slavery, I don't see how it isn't important to discuss. You're welcome not to participate if that's your wish, but it's an integral part of the reason why some people don't like the character.