Lobsel Vith
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Posts posted by Lobsel Vith
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21 minutes ago, Froippi said:
Still seeing a lot on social media that people our saying it’s unacceptable what YoYo did not sure how it can be that black and white and no grey area
They're the same people who excuse Fitz for what he did. Elena is held to a different standard because she isn't Fitz, or even Deke (who was excused for his actions). The whole fight with Daisy seemed pretty contrived as a means of bringing forth a new conflict to move away from the prior schism that they have no real interest in delving into because it would make Fitz look bad (and Mack's own dressing down of Fitz was pretty tame, all things considered).
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2 hours ago, kitlee625 said:
Wow, the writers are really doubling down on the Deke and Daisy. They even lampshaded it this episode twice -- why is he even still there? Why did he go on the mission? I guess he showed some usefulness getting the lighthouse computers up and running, but why go on the mission except to literally hold Daisy's hand.
Which made no sense. Given that Deke was still callous about selling her into slavery, was disrespectful towards her when she was the leader, and has defied orders, why is Daisy saying she's glad he's around? Why is Daisy confiding in Deke instead of Mack? Given how badly he screwed things up last time, why he is even allowed on a mission when he can't seem to follow orders during an op? This is so badly written.
36 minutes ago, fellini said:Ruby cut off YoYo's arms and then later YoYo kills her. I don't get why Daisy and Mack are mad about Ruby dying.
It feels like an easy way for the writers to ignore the issues regarding Fitz by bringing up a new schism in the ranks - so you have Daisy and Elena fighting instead of people addressing Fitz as a possible danger who might go full Ward, who tortured Daisy, who endangered Mack's life, and spun the current crisis into motion by giving in to Ruby when he could have said no (which was the crux of his argument for torturing Daisy - 'the greater good').
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18 hours ago, TVSpectator said:
Yeah, they did ruin a lot of characters (and also decided to give Fitz and Simmons Deke as their grandson. I don't know if they were going with a mix between Star-Lord of the comics and Han Solo but I would say that it didn't work but now they are just having Deke do his thing trying to woo Daisy- with lemons... Its just I can't understand why they would give their powership couple a grandson that is so repulsive in a lot of ways) and it would be nice to see them actually deal/live with the consequences.
And based on the article it seems that the writers aren’t dropping Deke’s gross crush on Daisy. I really don’t get the mindset of trying to suggest that a man who sold a woman into slavery might end up being paired with her. It’s like the writers lack common sense to understand how absurd and abhorrent this is.
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On 3/19/2018 at 10:57 AM, Raja said:
Back to the thematic tie in to Ragnarok. Deke played basically the same role Valkyerie did.
Valkyrie was a character in an anti-imperialism storyline who lost a female lover, is played by an Afro-Latina actress, and represents one of the few prominent WoC in the MCU. Some have even spoken to how she speaks to certain indigenous experiences with how she’s written. Deke doesn’t play any of those roles at all.
10 hours ago, Raja said:I don’t think Coulson will come back (it would require too much of an explanation that the films don’t want to bother with). Even Joss Whedon said a while back that bringing back Coulson seemed to irritate the film division.
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On 4/30/2018 at 8:44 AM, AngelKitty said:
The difference is that Fitz did it to save the world (many), Daisy would be doing it to save Coulson (one).
After Framework Ward having Ward’s victims used as props and the ridiculous handwaving of Deke, I don’t need to see this show gloss over any more atrocious actions. May and Daisy hurting Coulson wouldn’t mitigate the fact that Fitz didn’t even bother trying to speak with Daisy, and that his robots endangered the lives of everyone on the base. May and Daisy doing something bad doesn’t absolve Fitz of what he did to Daisy and Mack.
Also, I wouldn’t say he did it to save the world. He did have the chance to save the world, and he gave in to Ruby instead.
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20 minutes ago, Froippi said:
Oh good gosh I can actually see them doing against his will and if this ends up happening idk what else to say
Given how the writers have set up that Coulson needs to die via Future Elena's prophecy, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the route they take to "break" the loop (I'd imagine Future Elena would have said something entirely different if there was another scenario that was meant to happen). And given the fracture with the team, I suspect everyone might be going their own way - Elena and Mack are on the outs (and Mack expressed a desire to leave early this season), Fitz and Simmons aren't seeing eye to eye with Daisy, and May could go either way.
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Just now, Ceindreadh said:
So if Fitz had been able to give Daisy a proper anaesthetic or painkillers then that would have been ok?
I said in the post you quoted that May and Daisy are wrong to ignore Coulson's wishes, but that it's not going to be the same as Daisy enduring torture at Fitz's hands (unless Coulson is tortured in the process, in which case it would be the same).
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19 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:
Assuming of course that Daisy gives Coulson a choice in the matter. She and May have consistently ignored Coulson when he’s told them not to try and save him. If they have something that they believe will prolong his life do you think that they’ll hesitate to use it?
The issue is still that, if Coulson has to regularly take this remedy to stay alive, it's not like he can be coerced into doing so. Garrett's remedy wasn't permanent, which is why he needed to find out how Coulson was brought back.
19 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:I for one will be most amused if after all the railing against Fitz for performing a medical procedure without consent, that Daisy then turns around and does the same thing to Coulson.
It's wrong for May and Daisy to ignore Coulson's wishes once all is said and done, but considering that Daisy was being tortured in the process of the inhibitor being removed, it wouldn't quite be the same thing unless Coulson was also tortured in the process of his life being saved (and we saw how suicidal Coulson was the first time he regained all his memories in season one of the process that saved his life, so I can understand why he wouldn't want to go through that again).
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24 minutes ago, Raja said:
I am going with the Star Trek medicine example of one treatment works forever since Dr Whitehall wasn't seen needing continued Jaiying treatments to maintain a younger age. I forgot what kind of condition Garrett has but Phil suffered a trauma and his body is breaking down at that point. And his Kree juice can't keep up due to being a Ghost Rider to take out one target.
Whitehall drained Jiaying's entire body to make that happen, and Jiaying has been dead for years now (which is admittedly what I find odd about the narrative decision to use her given body decomposition). I'm not saying it isn't possible (since it's ultimately up to the writers how they want to resolve Coulson's current dilemma, presuming they want to spare him), but if Daisy is going off of Garrett's initial cocktail (which seems to be what the Candyman gave her), and how Garrett and Coulson both had injuries that were meant to kill them (although, in Coulson's case, it technically did), I'd presume that it shouldn't only be one.
28 minutes ago, Raja said:With a possible series finale and Coulson announced in the Captain Marvel movie I am betting that the cyborg hand along with the extremis/Jaiying treatment cocktail makes him another Deathlok instead of
as was done in the comic's adaptation (the TV show and most of the characters came first in this instance). Thus Clark Gregg is allowed back into the movie club after the fall out from Avengers 3 and 4.
Captain Marvel is going to be a prequel, so I don't think present day Coulson will factor much into it (especially with the schism between the film and television divisions of Marvel having issues with one another, I don't see AoS factoring into any of the movies at all).
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3 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:
Also, question: do other people know about Deke being a Fitzsimmons? Because Jemma was talking to Fitz over the walkies and asked if Deke has blinked out of existence right in front of Elena and other agents, and then Deke called Fitz Gramps in the main room around a whole bunch of the other characters, but I wasn't sure if that was supposed to be him TV whispering or not.
Simmons told Elena (in the episode where Elena helped break Fitz out of his cell), but we haven't had a scene where any of the other agents have been told.
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7 hours ago, Gothish520 said:
I can't imagine how this is going to play out. I don't even try to guess because this show pulls stuff out of left field regularly.
Yeah, they could end up surprising us.
1 hour ago, Froippi said:If I remember from season 1 that stuff is pretty unstable unless they added the GH325
Yeah, Garrett was looking for a permanent solution. Daisy seemed to be looking at Garrett's initial cocktail (the one he was using before he discovered how Coulson was brought back to life), and Garrett's temporary remedy seemed to also include cybernetics (he was the first Deathlok). I think the situation is going to be complicated enough that May and Daisy are going to have to talk about it with Coulson at some point - if this is going to involve cybernetics and taking this cocktail regularly, and Coulson still seems set on dying at this point.
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16 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:
Yes, and just as there is an argument to be made that FitzSimmons is acting selfishly with regard to protecting each other, Daisy and May are acting just as selfishly trying to keep Coulson alive, against his wishes.
Not that I want Coulson to die, because I certainly don't, but just calling it out for what it is - Daisy going rogue for selfish reasons, like practically everyone else.
The issue that comes into play is not simply the stakes - which was the world in the case of Fitz and Simmons, since they both acknowledge that Ruby might destroy the planet - but also Fitz's conduct with Daisy, which is the shadow that looms over how he gave in to Ruby. That's why this isn't the same.
Moving on, I understand that May and Daisy don't want to lose him, but this solution isn't going to work if Coulson doesn't agree to it.
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3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:
And...Daisy digs up mom. Yeah, this wont end well either. At all. Thats just gross, Daisy.
I'm not sure I see how practical that is. Wouldn't Jiaying's body have decomposed at this point? It seemed different the first time, where Whitehall stored samples and Cal found her not long after she was discarded by Hydra, but at this point she's been buried for years. And then there's the issue that May and Daisy will need to convince Coulson to get cybernetic implants and regularly administering this serum (if they're following what Garrett did to stay alive), and even then Garrett's solution was temporary (which is why he wanted to know how Coulson came back since his remedy was a temporary fix) so this would likely only delay the inevitable.
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Just now, Froippi said:
sorry but I will always choose the option to save billions of lives vs. someone getting their feelings hurt
Then you must dislike Fitz for choosing Simmons over the world and giving Ruby the power that put Elena in the position where she felt she had to kill Ruby.
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1 minute ago, Froippi said:
My point is she put a lot of people at risk cause she thought she could talk down a crazy person which she would never been able to do regardless that fact that she made Hale that. Promise was a big no no
A stance that presumes that Daisy could have easily killed Ruby when we saw how easily she crushed Alex's skull without even meaning to, and how she could have killed Daisy effortlessly. I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be.
1 minute ago, Gothish520 said:Look at what Daisy did when she was under Hive's control. People have forgiven her for that, because she was not in her right mind. Fitz is struggling and is not in his right mind right now. It's not at all that I think what he did was great, but I do still believe that it was necessary.
Except Fitz still proceeded with his plan after Simmons snapped him out of his daze, so the Hive comparison doesn't really work after that point. Fitz made a mess of things and caused problems by thinking he knew better than everyone else. His arrogance nearly killed Mack.
2 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:He did not have time to sit around schmoozing Daisy and trying to convince her to do something that he was sure she would not be convinced to do.
But he had time to construct multiple robots? Come on now.
2 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:Daisy was so terrified that she was the Destroyer of Worlds that she refused to get her powers back. She is stubborn as hell, she would have argued with Fitz until it was too late and the rift caused irreparable damage.
Daisy has changed her mind before, so the notion that she couldn't be persuaded 'until it was too late' comes across more like a transparent attempt to exonerate Fitz for torturing her than it does a genuine stance about her behavior.
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1 minute ago, Froippi said:
Yet she was willing to let Ruby live even with the Gravitonium which the way it sounds is Gravitonium can’t be control easy
Daisy thought she could get through to Ruby, and this isn't an example that - in any way, shape, or form - helps your argument at all. Daisy thinking that she could reach Ruby doesn't mean she would have condemned civilization. Personally, I don't believe Elena was wrong to take the action that she did (there's nothing that suggested Ruby could genuinely be redeemed), but this has nothing to do with what Fitz did.
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1 minute ago, Froippi said:
How do you seem convince you can persuade her
Five years of the character continually showing a willingness to help people, even if it meant she could die (she was willing to give up her life to initially deal with the rift in the 100th episode, and she was also willing to stay in the future if it meant that she couldn't endanger anyone when she thought she was the Destroyer of Worlds).
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7 minutes ago, Froippi said:
How is talking to her a option when you know what the answer is going to be made it clear before Coulson drag her back from the future
And how do you know that Daisy couldn't be persuaded to have the inhibitor removed? In exactly five seasons of screentime, what exactly makes you think Daisy wouldn't have chosen a path that could have saved lives?
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20 minutes ago, Froippi said:
Again you keep saying this but it’s been very clear that Daisy did not want her powers back so since that was not option what else could he have done ?
No, talking to her was an option, but it was one he discarded completely, similar to when he refused to even consult her about his plan to recklessly jump into the portal to Maveth to try and find Simmons, which put Daisy's life at risk when she had to keep the portal open longer than she was anticipating. And given how Daisy has continually shown a willingness to risk her life for others, even at the expense of her own life, I'm not sure why you think she couldn't be persuaded.
21 minutes ago, Froippi said:and i’m Not saying I agree either I just want to see people give other options besides the obvious
I think the fact that it's Fitz who did it colors how people look at what happened, and it's why some people refuse to hold him accountable or judge him.
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35 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I would not say what Fitz did wasn't bad, it was just necessary, IMO. Sometimes what's necessary isn't always good. That's the way I see it now - maybe down the road, things will be different. I fully expect Fitz to suffer for what has happened - if any of them ever get a chance to breathe again.
I'd say it was bad and unnecessary. Rather than stage some elaborate plan that endangered the lives of everyone on the base, Fitz could have spoken to Daisy. He could have talked to her about the rift, about the possible danger, and he could have easily persuaded her. Instead of building dangerous robots, he could have acquired pain medication. That people are acting like Fitz couldn't have gone about things any other way is part of the problem - what he did was wrong, and it's a lot more egregious than things that other characters have done.
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On 4/25/2018 at 10:05 AM, Froippi said:
If Daisy had follow Fitz intel instead of being so dam worry about Coulson it would of never gotten that bad either so you have two different ways of looking at it i’m Still convinced going after coulson accomplished nothing not to mention you had a Hydra spy put into the base after rescuing Coulson
If Fitz hadn't nearly killed the entire team and tortured Daisy, he wouldn't have been locked in a cell, and Daisy wouldn't have been worried that he would have endangered the lives of everyone on the base. The fault for Daisy being wary of Fitz going full Ward is Fitz - no one else. Not Daisy, not Mack, not Yo-yo - just Fitz.
On 4/25/2018 at 12:27 PM, Raja said:Well Mac had the only good Framework experience among the group
Mack lost Hope for a second time. That's going to color whatever good memories he shared with her in the Framework.
On 4/26/2018 at 2:14 PM, Froippi said:by the way Ruby would of gotten infused regardless if FitzSimmons was their or not so to really blame them i’m Not sure is fair she gets infused either way now if YoYo not their the outcome is different though
Except that presumes the Superior and his LMD army would have simply stepped aside for Ruby, and that's highly unlikely.
On 4/27/2018 at 4:02 AM, Froippi said:At this point I feel Shield was gone the moment Daisy was given leadership and on top of that not everyone is willing to take orders from Daisy as much as people want to believe it as far as FitzSimmons actions go that You have no real evidence that is what causes it just speculation
Fitz & Simmons screwing things up isn't speculation - it's what happened on the show.
On 4/27/2018 at 4:02 AM, Froippi said:For the record quaking people to make them follow your orders is not my definition of leadership either so if she goes down this road I won't accept that so if you want them to follow orders try it with Conversation not forcing cause you have superpowers yes I know she has not done this yes but just wanting to keep that in mind is all
Daisy quaked Fitz because he tortured her. And it was less painful than the agonizing pain she went through. And this is the second time Fitz tortured Daisy (and the second time the show pretty much handwaved his actions).
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On 4/23/2018 at 7:03 PM, CTrent29 said:
I really have no problems with Deke. Considering how Daisy was acting like a bull in a china shop on that space station, I would have betrayed her myself.
And yet no one comments on Fitz trying to speak to Simmons when he could have easily been overheard, how he suggests at one point to Enoch that they simply "shoot [their] way out", that he again tries to speak with Simmons despite the risk of being overheard, and that he had no real plan. It's odd how only Daisy is criticized, and not Fitz. And it becomes a huge issue for me when the reason for criticizing Daisy is to justify slavery.
On 4/23/2018 at 7:03 PM, CTrent29 said:I can't believe that Coulson views her as the right person to succeed him as the next SHIELD director. Good grief!
While I can't believe anyone would ever support a man selling a woman into slavery.
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10 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:
Question. When Deke sold Daisy, wasn’t he still under the impression that she was the person responsible for destroying the world and killing millions if not billions of people? And now she was there and going to cause trouble in the present day.
Deke, at first, blames Daisy, and then says it was likely a parallel universe version of her due to the Many Worlds Theory of quantum mechanics. He didn't sell Daisy into slavery thinking she was responsible for destroying the world, and given his flip-flop justifications for doing so (that change depending on who he's speaking with), he clearly did it for the money.
10 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:As for sacrifice, Deke did not have the advantage of watching the next episode and knowing that he was going to survive. When he stayed with Enoch he thought he was going to die. The fact that he didn’t die doesn’t negate the fact that he did put his life on the line.
Doesn't make the move any less hollow on the part of the writers when MoC like Trip and Andrew had actual deaths and this was done simply to try and handwave Deke selling a person into slavery. One single action also doesn't absolve him of being a slaver.
10 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:How many other times have members of the team put their lives at risk for others? Does it not count because they didn’t get killed or injured?
They didn't sell people into slavery for money, so it's never going to be the same. Deke isn't Trip, he isn't Mack, he isn't Joey, he's a guy who sold Daisy and emphasized how he expected some serious compensation from Kasius, and then sided with Coulson when he realized he might be able to speak with his father. Deke being a slaver is always going to be an issue for some people, which is why he never should have been brought over to the cast in the first place.
Honestly, we could have had another character who was morally grey, perhaps someone who helped Daisy when she's enslaved as opposed to selling her into slavery (which would make the future "comedic scenes" less awkward since they would not involve a slaver), perhaps even having this character oppose or kill Deke. A man of color would've been interesting given how little Trip, Andrew, Joey, and even Robbie received in comparison to their white counterparts (Deke, as a recent example), and it would've made the character having feelings for Daisy much less awkward without the slaver issue, not to mention it's currently coming across like this show has an inability to try and pair her with someone who isn't a white male (which is a bit ridiculous when you consider that she was involved with Miles, Ward, and Lincoln in less than two years of the show being on the air). Romance aside, someone who actually helped the team would've made sense as someone they would take with him, as opposed to the person who betrayed them by selling one of their own to Kasius (which basically makes the crew bringing him along in the first pod completely nonsensical).
A lot of things simply don't work with Deke because his involvement in selling someone into slavery is always going to be the primary issue with the character, and not everyone is willing to handwave that.
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4 hours ago, Gothish520 said:
I don't hate Yo-Yo, but her actions were entirely her own. Fitz and Simmons were forced to do what they did by Ruby with threats of death and dismemberment. I think that was quite plainly shown in the episode. Not the same situation at all.
Fitz and Simmons were responsible for giving Ruby the power that put Elena in the situation where she felt that killing Ruby was a serious option (aside from her own desire for revenge, she does genuinely think that Ruby was the Destroyer of Worlds). You can say you understand why they took that action, but they are ultimately responsible for giving in to Ruby and bestowing her with the power that lead Elena to think that Ruby had become the Destroyer of Worlds (my personal issue with the scene has to do with how Fitz acted towards the crew and Daisy when it came to the crisis of the rift, since it's clear now his priority wasn't the town or the world but his wife).
Therefore, I have issue with some of the comments I've read on twitter and in places like reddit where people put all the blame on Elena's shoulders. And I really don't think that Daisy could have handled Ruby for the long-term; she was seriously messed up and had powers that were beyond her control, along with two people vying for control (something that is driving Creel into a type of madness).
4 hours ago, Gothish520 said:I wonder why there would be conflicts? Mack/Yoyo, Coulson/May, FitzSimmons - I love them all. I liked Daisy and Lincoln too, and Bobbie and Hunter.
There have been conflicts before this over how little Coulson and May were getting (from the people who shipped them) because they feel that Fitz and Simmons are getting all the story, and it's bled into other communities as well (reddit tends to be a haven for Ward, Deke, and Fitz fans so not so much there).
9 hours ago, TVSpectator said:Well, I am now confused because, on one hand, you mentioned that they openly admit the risks but one the other hand you're saying that they weren't aware of the risks? I would say that neither wanted to be the ones that set things in motion but they kind of did with the whole, "we broke Fitz out of prison so we can stop the apocalypse but we are still invincible because we are destined to have a daughter....." kind of deal. I mean IF they did break the machine and Fitz just refused to fix it because again, it's the whole, "we are invincible because we are destined to have a daughter not yet born.... " (okay granted this was mostly Simmons) then they won't need to worry about dying nor fixing the machine. Also, they are SHIELD agents and SHIELD is designed to protect the world/humanity as a whole so they are right now acting pretty shitty and selfish, in my opinion. Then again, these characters never really made right choices in the series. In earlier seasons I got the impression that Simmons was more or less the type of person that would be more willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good and Fitz being the one that would pick the selfish option (which would lead to Simmons being alive) but this season they both have been very selfish, reckless, and careless.
No, I meant that it isn't as if they weren't aware of the risks. Typo on my part.
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S05.E20: The One Who Will Save Us All
in Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Fitz was locked up because he was viewed to be a danger, and even he admitted that he was hearing the Doctor. The possibility of him giving in to his Hydra persona existed, but that's been almost entirely forgotten by the show at this point. There was the possibility of him becoming a threat, the same way Ward was a threat to everyone. That's what I'm referring to.