[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

Well, that's the pilot. I don't think they were going to rewrite the pilot during production, no matter how dire the situation. Plus who knows what order they filmed in?

The conversation is illuminating from the perspective of, this is the central argument they wanted Oliver to have inside himself wrt his LI. The idea that his time away hasn't made him a person any more worthy of love and trust than old cheatin' lyin' Ollie was. See, I am one who believes that Oliver trusts the Arrow more than he trusts pre-island Oliver. I think the man he's afraid will hurt Felicity is *that* guy. He isn't afraid of exposing her to the Arrow or the risks of the Arrow's enemies. He's afraid of exposing her to Oliver.

It's also illuminating because it tells you who you were supposed to think Laurel was. Consider if someone who had the kind of warmth EBR has was in that position. You would get the sense that the coldness was just a defense, and that she had little hope of being able to hold on to it because she is essentially a loving person. By that conversation, end of the pilot, you would see that she was easily melted. But KC isn't right for that kind of role and she and SA had no connection.

The pilot wrapped end of April, I think? 102 began filming in July, we know EBR was cast late July. I found notices from August about JdG's casting. JG wasn't far behind. They were already reaching into the CW vault to prepare. These were IMO contingencies.

And I actually totally agree about how Oliver seemed to fall in love with all of them, and I think that shows that they were truly trying to cover themselves. The LI had to be on stage by the end of the first season. Had to. As I have said many times, this show has never wanted to be about Oliver figuring out which woman he loves. It wanted to be about Oliver allowing himself to be with the woman he loves. The audience couldn't be expected to swallow that if they didn't put her into play during the first season. I think they immediately had that instinct about EBR but you have to go ahead and put other plans into place. This is a 22-yo n00b, and they'd already made one huge casting mistake with KC. You try selling that to the network. They had to have time. But I think that they'd gotten the go ahead by 112.

If Laurel had worked out, I think you would've seen that whole slowly growing trust arc between Laurel and the Hood instead of Felicity and Oliver. But think back on season one. When did they drop that build? When did they drop trying to frame Laurel as the one whose trust and belief in him was all inspirational and shit? I would have to go back and look but...pretty early, I think. We came back from Christmas with a new prime directive.

The absolute death knell for L/O was in Dodger when Oliver allowed Felicity to be the archer, with him truly an arrow. When he went with her moral guidance about what they should and shouldn't do. That was Laurel's job y'all. She had *one job*. And they gave it to Felicity permanently in that moment. Sure, Diggle is an influence, but Oliver is a straight boy and his fine upstanding older brother Diggle isn't someone who can reboot his system.

 

I'd say it's around the time they tried to force her into the BC role after bungling up her character so much that she was left meandering for the first 2 seasons with terrible storylines like the addiction subplot to her messy storylines with her interchangeable trainers and just straight up shoving her into the costume and standing beside Oliver because too much damage had been done at that point and then to make matters worse spend an entire season giving another character backstory/connections/etc.  It was a huge disaster, character wise and the toxic relationship where nothing seemed to go right at all.

[Continuing The Series]

How was season 3 a reboot?

 

It was clearly a reboot from season 2, the very first episode was a reference to the Initiative trainwreck being over only to make things even worse from here on out.

 

[Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion]

I think you are only partly right, because in my opinion Revenge suffers from bad and uninspired writing. It has nothing to do with plot twists like David Clarke being alive, it has to do with how they are executed, in the case of David Clarke it was a desaster. What you are saying goes for 90% of TV shows in their senior seasons, there are only a handfull objections, like Breaking Bad. The Walking Dead gets praised a lot for example, but from that point of view it's no different than Revenge. The main problem with revenge was always the lack of an "expiration date", if you have that it doesn't matter how many twists and turns you make on the way, as long as they are well written, and you always keep in mind how the show and their characters will end up.

 

It's not just that the plot twist was the problem, it's how desperate it came off to try to drag this series out for at least another season.  David Clarke was the main motivator/catalyst of Emily's revenge and the writers completely threw that out of the window.  It's terrible because it's a plot twist that did more damage than any good to the series, in the end, David's character didn't even amount to much, he was wasted on pointless subplots that went nowhere like the Malcolm Black nonsense.

[Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread]

I liked Laurel in the first season (though in retrospect, they should have done loads of things differently with her character since they knew she was always going to be BC) up until the point where she slept with Oliver.  I thought that was just bad for both of them.  For Laurel, its kind of like - ok I understand Tommy dumped you in a rather insane sort of manner and Oliver has come back and is kind of acting like the man you always thought he would be (actually from her point of view, he was acting kind of skitzo, but at least some of the time, he was acting like the man she thought he could be lol).  But this man still cheated on you with. your. sister.  It's reasonable that she would forgive him, but still be in love with him? No.  Still be attracted to him?  Ok maybe, but he was proclaiming his love for her, not asking for a hock-up.  She has no reason to trust him with her heart....ever.  And how little could she have cared about poor Tommy if she wouldn't wait until there was NO chance they would reconnect?

 

I just thought it was an ass-move by Oliver to tell Tommy to go fight for Laurel and then go seduce her himself.  That was a major friend fail moment.

 

I think I would have gone back to liking Laurel just fine in season two if they hadn't made her spiral in to self-pity, Arrow loathing, and drugs/booze.

 

Sadly, IA and I feel that this is where her character crossed the line of no return and unfortunately will never recover with the way her character is written and executed.

[S04.E18: Clarity]

The show reached a new low when they ruined the Louise/Nolan relationship because of really bad writing. Louise and Nolan have always been honest with each other so this is utter nonsense IMO. It's annoying because their relationship, messy and all, has been the only remotely positive relationship this show has had all season. I give up.

 

Too much to expect consistency from these writers, but that's what happens when they struggle to find anything for their characters to do.  No surprise there actually, it was only a matter of when they would ruin them.

 

It's a new television world. Without those spoilers, many viewers would skip it and wait for the comments after. Then they'd watch it on demand later. At that point, the ratings have already come in. It may not be the wisest strategy, but TPTB have decided that creating early buzz is better to get people to watch it "live."

 

There's really nothing left to buzz about, this show has exhausted pretty much everything at this point: Emily went back to being Amanda and exposed herself to the public, her dad is alive and cleared, most of the Graysons are dead and the revenge is barely existent (at least to drag it out any further), etc.  They tried to pull it with the David Clarke thing and that did not work, none of the desperate plot twists are working.  The only thing they can and should do is end it and not drag it out anymore.

 

I think that was the point of Louise's character from the start. Why else would they focus on her obsession with Victoria at the beginning of the season and drop it like a fly all of the sudden?

 

Dropped plot points are the writers' go to response for everything.  As for Louise, she is pointless, her storyline is disconnected from everything else and it dragged nolan down with her and her useless family drama.

 

 Because that how this show rolls.

 

Unfortunately.

[Continuing The Series]

I figure there's a "Ending The Series" thread. Why not the complete opposite?

How would you continue the show? How would you revive it?

 

I wouldn't tbh, because it would just be a new series with new characters anyway so it might as well be a new show altogether seeing as how the last 2 seasons are already reboots.

[Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion]

If the producers ramp up to the end it was a big mistake not to announce this as the last season from the beginning, then maybe the writing wouldn't have suffered that much since there would have been no need to drag out storylines for too long or add characters with no purpose at all than dragging the story out like Ben for example.

 

This is what happens when you not only drag a series on longer than it should've been and then forcing in a plot twist like David Clarke to try and prolong something that shouldn't have happened.  1 season later and it's more conclusive than ever and yet they're still dragging things out.

 

Hmmm...I hope you are right, but I honestly doubt it, as there is a second picture that clearly shows that the setting is in a courtroom. For what reason should Emily be in a courtroom with an orange jumpsuit, if not for her own trial.

 

And as much as I hate her being in jail, it makes perfect sense. Victoria will get her hands on the flashdrive (thanks to Lousie), and she will it hand it over to the authorities.

 

The reason this makes perfect sense to me ist that it is still unclear whether there will be a 5th season, and they are already shooting the last episodes, so the writers have to wrap up the story in a way that gives them both options, ending it after season 4 and having a fith season. It was always pretty clear to me that a story worth telling for the fifth season could only be achieved by making Emily lose everything by the end of season 4, to take everything away from her by Victoria. And this means taking away her freedom, and her loved one(s), which means killing at least David (this time for real), as he has nothing to contribute to the story anymore. And of course anybody else would be fair game to, but I doubt they would kill of Nolan or Jack, as there has to be at least some hope left for her to come back in season 5 more ruthless and revengy than ever. :)

 

But if it ends in Season 4, I'm pretty sure it ends with her dead or finally free from the cycle of revenge though, not in jail. We'll see.

 

I would hate for another forced cliffhanger plot twist, especially after wasting time on David Clarke and that went nowhere fast.  The Maclolm Black and Natalie thing went nowhere.  He's just another character dangling out there with nothing better to do.  After Emily went back to being Amanda and exposing her secrets to the public, there's really nothing important they could do.  I've seen plenty of tired and exhausted series before, but this one takes the cake, it's like a never ending after credits sequence that has multiple endings but still keeps going long after it should've ended.

[Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard]

Sadly the show didn't go in that direction. It is weird to me that Emma would be so happy to see August. She knows he is the reason Neal left her and was so angry about it. I can see the argument that they were both were ripped from happy childhoods and thrust into an uncaring world and have a bond. Maybe Emma has enough distance from all the hurt because she has her family and is in a relationship with Hook, so she can let the past go.

I wonder how Neal would have reacted to August if he were alive.

 

Sad but true, the whole mess with Neal and August was just awful and it's a shame the writers chose to completely brush it under the rug instead of having Emma rightly confronting the both of them for it.  Neal is gone and August is currently a plot device for the Author plot before I suspect him going away.

[Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)]

I've decided the apathy I used to feel for Laurel (which has grown into a mild hateness) is now being applied to the show at large. I no longer feel really bitter about anything because I just don't care enough anymore to be that bothered. However, I could agree to a buttery feeling.

 

IA and it's not just Laurel, it's just not an enjoyable show anymore, the team dynamics used to be this show's highlight and now we're just getting a jumbled mess of characters and storylines.

 

I feel really weird about the fact that Deadshot, the hired assassin, seemed like more of a believable hero last in the last episode than Ray did. And Deadshot is the one who died?

 

Exactly and I feel the same way about Ray and Laurel.

[S04.E18: Clarity]

I was wondering the same thing.  I don't think she was responsible for any collateral damage in this episode, was she?

 

Oh, I guess the speculation is that Margaux will blame Emily for losing the baby.

 

Oh joy, see it's things like this that not only make her a bad character, but also the bad villain that they're forcing her to be.

[S04.E17: Loss]

I don't know if I'm in for much longer. The whole duh duh duhhhh court deal, seriously?? I mean I know DUI is serious, but they made Jack out to be serial killer esque. The whole Margeaux plot is just stupid and her lying is even worse. They're hanging on by a thread and it's getting bad.

 

It is, just more contrivances for a forced villain the writers shoved her into, nothing about it feels natural and that's a part of why it's horribly done.

 

Can we keep Stevie around and get rid of Margaux? Still don't care about Ben but those previews it seems like the show is wrapping up.

 

You know the show's MO by now, keep the uninteresting/unlikable characters.  I want it to wrap up at this point, this Margeaux plot is already stretched thin as it is.

 

Can this show end?  I don't think I can take anymore.... I think the episode described it well when first David, then Emily, were saying the revenge had to end or it would keep going on and on.... exactly how I feel about the show.  I was so annoyed when Margaux blamed Emily for what happened to Jack.  She is so delusional in that there was no benefit to having Jack impacted by her revenge against Emily plan.  I also was liking having a break of Victoria not being after Emily for once, so now I am bummed to see her most likely back in that plot line thanks to Margaux.  It is all rather depressing really.  

 

And I agree they were making a DUI trial seem like a murder trial--and they even had a judge that would use a smaller offense for political gain.  

 

Exactly, it just needs to end, it's being painfully dragged on and on longer than it needs to.

I thoroughly enjoyed seeing Margeaux hit by a cab. Would have been a lovely way to kill her off. But no, we still have her idiotic revenge against Emily to look forward to. I really don't understand the writers. Do they really think this is something viewers are clamoring for? Margeaux should have no beef with Emily; she was manipulated into it by Victoria. Watching it play out is just tiresome.

 

Of course, they always leave us with the most annoying characters, that's why they've been dragging around characters like Margeaux.