bandella

This! I kinda want to smack Rollo upside the head and go, "Dude, remember last time you got all offended over Ragnar being the special one, and then you found out you didn't actually have the heart to fight him and you spent the next year or so wallowing drunk in the mud?" Like you, I love that the show trusts its audience to be smart enough to not see this as totally out of left field or out of character. Disappointing for some, smart for others, pragmatic for still others, but it's entirely in line with what we know about Rollo so far. That being said, I'm not 100% convinced he's going to play along with the Franks. He's probably pissed about Ragnar's fake death and not trusting him enough to tell him in advance, but I don't know if that's enough for him to betray Ragnar again. Who's to say he's not just taking advantage of a great opportunity when it fell in his lap, cozy up to the princess and get her on his side (or at least have some fun being yelled at by attractive women, as seems to be his favorite hobby besides tripping on mushrooms and wholesale slaughter), and somehow work from the inside to make Ragnar's life a little easier come spring raiding season? Or maybe Ragnar will think, "Hey, we kinda sorta conquered Paris...maybe I'll just go bug Ecbert instead."

I think it's been a long time coming, and Helga's just finally had it. First, he freaks out when she tells him she's pregnant, but hey, that's not so uncommon. Then he wants to name their kid Angrboda, who, no matter how much I sympathize with her (she really got the shaft), was not seen as anything remotely admirable in Norse myth. Then he hides away from Helga and the baby, claiming that he can't be happy with her because she makes him happy (...wha?) and can barely wait to go raiding just to get away from the two of them. Between him choking her and then gleefully confessing to the murder of someone very close to Ragnar and knowing that Ragnar could very well get revenge on Floki by killing someone close to him (re: Helga or the baby), I think she just finally had enough. That, and while I have no doubt Helga believes in the gods and all, she seems kind of weirded out by Floki's increasing religious zealotry. So there's that, too.

I definitely think that's part of the issue because let's face it: those first two or three episodes were...not great, or at least I didn't think so, so it's entirely possible that the show was just trying out different things because the characters hadn't really been fleshed out yet. They were on paper, I'm sure, but I like to pretend to be a writer myself sometimes, and the most detailed character bio in the world can end up meaning nothing once you actually put that character into play and have them start interacting with others and the world around them. I think another issue at play here is that people are generally conditioned not to like problematic characters. I've always gravitated toward the more, shall we say, "difficult" characters, the ones who can make you root for them at one point and then want to strangle them the next. One of my favorite characters ever, even before the movies, is Loki from the Marvel comics. I like the myth and movie versions as well, but the comic book version is just...he's a great big bag of dicks, basically, and all the emotional baggage and psychological damage in the world can't make up for the fact that he's a horrible person. He's an abusive, manipulative, misogynistic know-it-all with serious control issues, but damned if he can't also show some good qualities now and then that keep me from just outright hating him. Anyway, I think that's part of a lot of people's issues with Rollo. He's capable of being both good and bad, often to extreme degrees, and those worst qualities make us feel kind of guilty for liking him and wanting to see him succeed. That doesn't mean we have to excuse his bad deeds or apologize for them; they are what they are. It's OK to like such a character. It doesn't mean you approve of their wrongdoings.

Sigh. Gisla. Hon. Let's chat. No matter how "Independent Woman" you wanna be, let's face it: you were pretty much always destined to be married off to someone against your will. I realize Rollo has that scary pagan wolf-man thing going and all, but let's stand him up next to Odo. Do you see what a bullet you dodged?

...dang. Odo's a freak. Rollo's eulogy was so hilariously passive-aggressive. I loved it. omgggg FLOKI STFU YOU WORTHLESS SLUG UGH lolol I can't help it. Rollo killed me this episode. When Gisla started telling him off, he *knew* she was giving him what for. I think that's when he decided that, oh yes, if he can't have Lagertha, he might as well have another challenging, strong-willed woman to try to win over. Good setup for the next season, but as a finale, it felt kinda...slow. I got spoiled by the last few episodes and epic raiding adventures, I guess. I don't wanna wait until 2016, though. :(

Could be Fenrir. Could also be one of Odin's wolves (dude was like a traveling zookeeper). Interestingly enough, the scenario you describe of Ragnar incorporating Christ into his pantheon instead of rejecting the Norse gods instead is pretty true to what a lot of pagans did. Some scholars believe that Baldur in the myths is a prime example, given some of the very Christ-like aspects of his story. Odin was often claimed to be a god of death (among many, many other things), so actually, you're still right. :) Along with the valkyries, Odin himself was said to visit the battlefield sometimes to take dead and dying warriors to Valhalla. In the very first scene of the series, when Ragnar and Rollo are off fighting and Ragnar sees Odin walking around, that's exactly what's happening (or so Ragnar believes, anyway). I am intrigued to see how that plays out, and whether or not Ragnar was crying out to Athelstan or Odin not to abandon him. In light of his undying love for his poor lost boyfriend, I'm inclined to go with the former.

Erm...remember the attack on the viking settlement? When he ordered the fleeing kid to be shot in the back with an arrow? Given that I don't think he was convinced that Athelstan was anything but another dirty heathen (even worse because he knew God and turned his back), I don't even think the fact that he's the kid's non-biological father would really protect him, if it came down to it. I'm still torn between my favorite parts of the episode: the Ragnar's Angels sequence at the beginning, or the dinner scene in Wessex. I'm certain at this point that Aethelwulf's actually struck a deal with Queen Krazypants and is playing Ecbert. Like father, like son, eh?

First, I almost choked on the Twix bar I was eating when I read that. Second, I'd be inclined to agree if not for the scene where he, ah, clearly wasn't doing it for Princess Krazypants. Then again, she might be a special case. Lagertha didn't seem to have any complaints (aside from seeing Ecbert for the slimy bastard he is). I want to believe that the "I'm a dying man" and the previews for next week, especially with Rollo and Lagertha, are decoys. Ragnar's just seemingly on his deathbed, and they're just talking to him. Athelstan's ghost is gonna roll up, smack Ragnar on the forehead, proclaim him healed, and saunter his pretty self on out of there again. I believe!

As usual, random thoughts while watching: Nothing like a bloody pee shot to set the stage. Heh. Sistas are doin' it for themselves! Good God. Haven't they figured out yet that that tunnel is just a shop of horrors? Seriously, NOTHING GOOD COMES FROM IT. Poor Ragnar. He's never gonna be over his poor lost boyfriend, is he? Still not liking the French princess. She just has no personality beyond "I'm fearless." Ecbert! Oh, you magnificent, slimy bastard. I've missed you. Damn, Earl Siegfried. That was pretty slick. Bets on how long before Sulky Chris Pratt snaps and attacks Dad? Honestly, at this point, I'm not so sure he isn't playing Ecbert just like Ecbert is playing him. And...yeah, OK, I'm liking Judith much more these days. "Winter is coming." Ha. What was the point of the Christian wanderer in Kattegut? I...did not see that coming with the Baptism. Given that it really looks like Ragnar's kicking the bucket next episode, I'm very, very, VERY sad...and worried about the show, honestly, because he's such a compelling character. When the seer said "the dead will conquer Paris," I took that to mean the plague, or even Christianity-via-Athelstan-via-Ragnar. I didn't think Ragnar would be the dead one. :(

Exactly. French was the official language of the court following the Norman conquest, and as French itself borrows heavily from Latin for its official documentation, that's why a good portion of our legal terms are Latin in nature. Nobles had to learn it due to intermarriage, business, and simply wanting to move up the social ladder. It never really caught on with the lower classes, but the well-to-do definitely embraced some elements of French to make themselves seem more erudite. Of course, this often resulted in pidgin French and English amalgamations. I don't think modern English is really half-anything, though, to be fair. I don't remember who said it (when in doubt, attribute everything either to Mark Twain or Oscar Wilde), but "English is the language that beats up other languages in a dark alley, goes through their pockets, and steals whatever it can find." It's probably a third German, a third Latin, a quarter French, and a quarter Greek. I am not at all up on my Celtic history, sadly, so it's entirely possible I'm talking nonsense here, and I apologize if that's the case and welcome corrections. From what little I do know, though, I think the Celts originated in and around Austria and eventually migrated west to become the Celts of the Iberian Peninsula, France, and the British Isles, but the process of intermingling between Celts and indigenous peoples in these areas had been going on for many, many centuries by the 9th century, roughly when this show takes place. By that point, the French language had taken on heavy Latin influences. So maybe if the vikings had shown up several hundred years earlier, there wouldn't have been such a difficult language barrier. Back on track, here, I said it in the last episode's thread, and I'll say it again here: I'm torn between "the dead will conquer Paris" meaning either that Ragnar's gonna end up flinging a bunch of dead bodies over the castle walls and waging biological warfare against the Franks, or more abstractly, Athelstan's faith and Ragnar's familiarity with it will come into play. Personally, I'm hoping for the latter, simply because I think that's a more interesting path to take. Still, though, I'm puzzled over what Ragnar said after Athelstan's "funeral," when he put on the cross and asked that Athelstan forgive him not for what he had done, but for what he was about to do. Did he mean solely the raid on Paris, with which Athelstan had clearly been enamored? Given that Athelstan was feeding him information about Paris's defenses and layout knowing full well that Ragnar was planning a raid, I don't think he was that concerned about the city being attacked. And given that Ragnar's a man of few words and never seems to speak without a purpose, I refuse to think that was just a throwaway line. Instead, I'm thinking he means to use Christianity to get his foot in the door, so to speak, and lay the seeds of ruin from within that way.

All those are Indo-European languages, but they split off into very different groups. Romance languages (Latin, Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) are quite different from Germanic languages (German, obviously, but also Dutch, various Scandinavian languages, English, etc). At the time in which this show takes place, Germanic languages, particularly Old Norse, were still very similar to Old English, so they would have been able to understand each other reasonably well. Probably not fluently, but they shared more similarities than differences. Old French, meanwhile, was very different, simply because it evolved out of an entirely different branch of the I-E language family. Essentially, Romance languages spread west and somewhat east (Romania, I think), while Germanic languages spread north and northwest. Many of the Saxons Ragnar and co. have interacted with at this point aren't that far removed from their mainland predecessors. In a pre-telecommunications, pre-mass media world, linguistic changes were much slower to take hold than they are now. tl; dr: Old Norse and Old English were much, much more similar to each other than Old Norse and Old French. For Old Norse and Old English, I'd imagine it's a bit like trying to read Chaucer in the original Middle English. It's not impossible, but it definitely takes some close attention, and there are some things you're just not going to be able to understand. Meanwhile, for Old Norse and Old French, it'd be like trying to figure out a Latin text without any prior Latin experience whatsoever, not even the borrowed words that eventually came into the English language via the Normans. For trivia's sake, I was in the midst of studying German when I had my first exposure to Beowulf in the original Old English. I was pretty surprised that it was easier for me to read than others in my class -- not because it made any sense whatsoever in English as we know it today, but solely because I was studying German hardcore at the time.

This. For the life of me, I couldn't understand why they all went charging down the hall. I mean, they had to know something was amiss, right? Maybe they were hoping the walls had been breached enough that those soldiers had been pulled out to help defend against the larger viking force on the water, but did they really think they'd leave such a vital entry point so completely open? Much as it pains me to say it, I'm kind of glad that Lagertha didn't see it coming and had to be rescued from her own stubbornness/bravery/whatever. Don't get me wrong; it's still my life goal to one day be as awesome as she is. But given how perfect she's been throughout the series, she was kind of in danger of becoming a Mary Sue-type figure with no flaws, the one everyone loves. I'm glad to see that even the viking queen of my heart is human and is capable of bad judgment now and then. Someone back on the first page asked if the budget had gone up. I was thinking the exact same thing while watching this (actually, while watching the earlier scenes in Wessex, and particularly Paris, due to the gorgeous costumes). I remember watching the first couple episodes back in season one and laughing at the godawful CGI that was supposed to make it look like they were sailing on an open ocean when it was obvious they were in a "boat" in a pool. The production values now compared to then are just staggering. It's such a pretty show. Sometimes I think I watch it as much for the scenery and costumes as for the characters and plot. As others have pointed out, I should clarify my earlier point about rooting for the Parisians. Initially, I was absolutely on their side. They were the victims of an unprovoked attack. I also had a hard time watching the raids on Lindisfarm and Northumbria in general back in season one for the same reason. But as the raid continued and it became obvious that the Franks were more than capable of defending themselves, I did start to feel bad for Team Vikings. Not enough to negate the fact that, yeah, they totally attacked a heavily fortified city without fully understanding the enemy and that their attack was unprovoked, but still.

I think that was the emperor, quaking in his fancy slippers. I hope this isn't Ragnar's last season. Love him, hate him, or love to hate him, I really think the show would suffer without him. Still, though, as pointed out above, peeing or coughing blood is never a good sign. Both at the same time, though? Yeah. You're in some deep trouble.

Is it just me, or does anyone else want to see the French princess get some subtitles going? When she was screaming while hoisting the banner, I could barely understand anything she said. Also, is it bad that I was rooting for the Parisians the entire time? As long as Lagertha, Ragnar, and Rollo made it out, that is. Damn. Lagertha drives a hard bargain. Poor Ragnar, STILL mourning his lost boyfriend.

Hey, it worked for Gandalf at Edoras. It can work for Ragnar. ...that totally makes Floki Grima Wormtongue. I guess it was a camp wife thing? I have no idea if vikings did this, but women often went along with armies (and "armies") to serve as cooks, seamstresses, laundresses, etc. But it does seem weird that this is the first time we've seen her go along on a raid. I was going to say maybe it was because Paris is the farthest Ragnar's group has gone, but that doesn't make sense because it's basically the same distance as Wessex.

Speak softly and carry a big stick. Ragnar just happens to take that literally.

This is true. Vikings =/= Norse. "Viking" was a specific term for those who went raiding or just journeyed to other places. Not to be that person, but the idea that everyone died in their 30s and that 40 was ancient in Ye Olden Tymes is actually a fallacy. The average age in various periods is always lower because it takes into account infant and childhood mortality, both of which were very high. But it really wasn't that unusual for people to live relatively long lives. That said, though, you're actually kinda right in this particular instance, as the average life expectancy for a viking warrior was...not great, nor was it even desired. Dying in old age of natural causes, while not precisely "shameful," was still seen as much less desirable than dying in battle with a weapon in your hand. My immediate reaction to the walking stick was to think it's part of the, "Don't kill me! I'm totally a monk!" ruse, but I really like the idea that it's instead (or perhaps also) meant to show that a lot of time has passed since season one and that Ragnar isn't a young upstart anymore.

So I've been doing some reading (thanks, Wiki!) and am a little puzzled. This can't be Charles the Fat (heh), can it? But he was supposed to have been the head honcho in Paris at the time of the first Viking raid, not Charles the Bald. Hmm. But Charles the Fat was also apparently seen as ineffectual and not a very great leader, which did come across a bit in this episode. He seemed awfully wishy-washy and easily influenced. As someone pointed out back on the first page, I'm guessing that "not the living, but the dead will conquer Paris" refers to those oh-so-delightful siege tactics of hurling dead bodies over city walls to spread disease among the enemy population until they either died off or surrendered. Is it too soon to hope Floki's one of those flung over the wall? Or there's also a twist I find even more interesting: what if "the dead" refers to Athelstan--and, more broadly, his faith? I highly doubt Ragnar's converted to Christianity, but as this show's so fond of drawing parallels between him and Ecbert, he is absolutely not above using Christianity to his advantage. If he wanders up wearing a cross and a (partially) shaved head reminiscent of a monk, along with the robes Athelstan wore when they first met, the Parisians are more likely to consider talking than just killing him outright. That might also explain why Ragnar asked Athelstan to forgive him not for what he had done, but for what he was about to do when putting on the cross. Also very intrigued with Pri--Queen Krazypants and her mystery baby that just showed up. I'm not buying that the kid's hers, though with the weird time jumps on this show, I suppose it's possible. Definitely not buying that it's Ragnar's kid in any case.

Didn't know that, but that absolutely makes sense, as they do look a lot alike. I kept seeing Torvi in background scenes at the camp and thinking it was Helga and going, "Wait, why did Helga tag along? Where's her kid?" So when Helga really did show up, I was especially puzzled. Still waiting for Helga to kick Floki in the balls next time he manhandles her and goes all Colonel Kurtz on her.

Yes! Someone else gets it! I was starting to think I was the only one. I think, though, I'm going to have to change my nickname for him from Sulky to Angry Chris Pratt.

Random thoughts during the episode: "...or something of that sort." Heh. I can't help it. I still like Ecbert for some reason. Floki really isn't too bright, is he? Can he really not see Ragnar's setting him up? Or at least it certainly seems that way. Poor Ragnar, mourning over his lost boyfriend. :( Princess Krazypants! I never thought I'd like this character, but she's really grown on me this season. I know nothing about medieval French history, but what the crap was up with the masks on the French king and princess at the end? I thought Dr. Doom had dropped by for a visit. Very, very excited for next week. The Two Towers is my favorite of the LotR movies specifically for Helm's Deep, so...yeah. Bring on the siege!

Yep. It's an incident most commonly referred to as the "harrowing of hell" in the Apostles' Creed, though biblical scholars seem to debate whether it was ever meant to be interpreted literally. Basically, the story goes that after being crucified and before resurrection, Christ descended into "the underworld" to preach to the unconverted and to tell them how they could be saved. Here's the interesting part, though: depending on the translation, it either refers to "hell" in the Christian theological sense, or "Hel" in the Anglo-Saxon sense, i.e., simply the realm of the dead, without the eternal torment implications. The Apostles' Creed is largely a Catholic thing, I think, and some branches of Protestantism. I went to a Presbyterian church when I was a kid, and that particular bit always stuck with me for some reason. ...sorry. I'm a nerd and really into this stuff and etymology and all that. I'll shut up about it now. As for Loki (myth version, not the Marvel version), he actually wasn't a terrible guy in most of the myths. His sudden, inexplicable decision to orchestrate Baldr's murder is a pretty sharp turn for him, which is why a lot of people who study this kind of thing in far, far more depth than I do think it's a later addition to the myths. Otherwise, he pretty much just liked annoying people and occasionally showing up uninvited to parties, getting drunk, and insulting everyone, but he never came off as being very malicious. In fact, Thor comes off as being far more bloodthirsty and violent, being ultra-willing to go smash a giant's head in at the first given opportunity. I promise, though, I'm not trying to lecture anyone. If I'm coming off that way, tell me and I'll shut up. I just get easily excited about this stuff. :) But back on track here before I get myself canned. I'm genuinely curious here, but how does one go about being nominated for an Emmy? I know it's a long shot, but after watching the episode again, I find myself more and more impressed by Travis Fimmel, especially that eulogy scene. It's kind of funny that even though I love Athelstan's character and was shocked to see him killed off (hands over my mouth and all), I wasn't really sad about it...until Ragnar showed up, hauling his tiny buddy up the mountain to their sooper seekrit date spot. That's when I really felt it and felt Ragnar's loss because he made me feel it. At the very least, how about a People's Choice Award?

Also of note: there's a popular theory that Balder isn't authentic to Norse beliefs and was a Christian import -- a plot device, if you will, to introduce some fundamental aspects of Christianity. Namely, a perfect, beloved, saintly figure betrayed by one close to him. He spends some time in Hel(l) before showing up after the whole "cleanse the Earth with fire" motif and turning it into a paradise. Sounds familiar, huh? Of course, there's also a theory that Loki's malicious heel turn at the end of his story is itself a Christian take on the tale, as those wishing to convert the pagans didn't seem to understand and/or like the order/chaos dichotomy central to Norse mythology and instead wanted it to be a more familiar good/evil deal. There needed to be a central "evil" figure against which the "good" characters in the stories could unite, and whenever anything went wrong in Norse myths, Loki was at fault and had to fix it. Why not make him a true villain instead of just a troublemaker? That said, I've never gotten the vibe from Floki that he was supposed to be this lighthearted jokester character. He's always seemed to possess a pretty dark mean streak. Remember the incident with the priest (was it a priest?) tied to the pillar? That was pretty early on, if I remember correctly, and he seemed pretty damn gleeful about shooting the dude up with arrows. I too wondered about Ragnar carrying his kid over his shoulder like a sack of potatoes when Kalf and Ko. arrived. I like the idea that it was meant to echo him carrying Athelstan later. I also like it being just a random, quirky choice on the actor's part. He does so much with this role. I started out this show hating him and his constant smirking, but what can I say? He's really grown on me.

I love everyone in this bar. Drinks for everyone! Seriously, though. This. THIS. Somehow, I didn't even twig to the Judith/Aslaug comparisons, but you're absolutely right. I do like that this show doesn't shy away from making anyone look bad, nor does it make any pretenses about clear-cut heroes and villains. That's the thing about people: for the most part, we're all a little good and a little bad. Some of us lean more one way or the other, but no one is 100% evil or 100% saintly, and I think this show does a really good job at portraying that. There were barbaric Englishmen and women and kind, loving Norsemen and women. There were kind, pious Christians and those who took the worst parts of their holy book way too literally. There were Norse people who just wanted to hang out on their farm and feed their families and who really weren't interested in sailing off to parts unknown to ransack other places. Then there were others who lived for a brutal fight and thought racking up kills would make Odin and/or the Valkyries take notice. Especially now that Athelstan is gone, I'd find it really difficult to lose Ragnar as well, as he's pretty much the only remaining character who straddles both worlds and seems genuinely interested in both of them. On a mostly unrelated note, I'm echoing what someone else said up-thread: would Judith really have been publicly tortured like that? I know there have been monarchs who love making a huge spectacle out of everything (someone also mentioned Anne Boleyn, for example), but it seems far more likely that a prince's wife, especially the daughter of a nearby king and whose marriage to said prince was part of a peace treaty, would be dealt with quietly, along with the illegitimate child. Anyone else wanna take bets on how long before Sulky Chris Pratt turns on daddy dearest?

At the beginning of this show (actually, through much of season one), I would have been absolutely fine without Ragnar. In fact, I really wanted a show about Lagertha, Siggy, and their pet monk going on crazy adventures in Ye Olde Scandinavia. But damned if Fimmel hasn't made me like the little bastard. No matter how hard I try, I just...can't...dislike him anymore. And while I'm very interested in seeing how this unfolds over the course of dozens or even hundreds of years, I don't think I'll ever be ready to say goodbye to the current cast. They're too good, far better than what I ever expected from a History Channel drama. But with Siggy's death and now Athelstan's (*sob*), it does seem like they're weeding out the cast to make room for newcomers. It's kind of like when a great show ends and you swear you'll never find another one you like even half as well. Inevitably, it happens, but you still say it every time. I hadn't even realized that Ragnar took Athelstan's body to the place where they prayed last season. That was an excellent continuity nod. I thought he was going to hide the body of the dude he strangled, but when he gave that little, "The things I do for you" crack, I got suspicious. Then he patted the corpse's butt, and...well. I figured it out then. I still find it kind of hilarious, in a very twisted way, that Ragnar seemed more broken up over losing Athelstan than Gyda. I'm still wondering what's up with Thorunn. She was so absolutely gung-ho about being a shieldmaiden. She seems more like the sort who would wear her scars with pride and tell Bjorn to get bent if he couldn't still love her like that. I get that she's still in shock and everything, but it just seems out of place for her to be shoving him away, given what we know of her so far. That said, I did like the death glare Aslaug shot her when she said the baby might be a monster (or something to that effect). Aslaug very quickly shut her down and let her know that, nope, not getting off that easily, and she was still going to love that kid, no matter what. Good for you, Mom. I'm sorry you've only just recently realized your fate was as Ragnar's broodmare because he's hung up on his priest buddy.