Yemayah

After Rick slammed into Negan's car and Negan was lying among the wreckage, it appeared that Negan (who was covered in blood) had the bat lying on or next to him and likely had a lot of the walker guts from the bucket on him. It's possible he can't tell whether or not he has been scratched by the bad or debris from the wreck. However, given that he and his people have been eating tainted meat from the Kingdom, maybe he has developed plot immunity, assuming the writers even remember that detail.

My memory may be faulty, but I recall that Rick plunged a knife hard into the head of a zombie, top down into the crown, breaking bone, and it appeared that bloody bone shards cut his hand. If I remember correctly, Rick even had to wrap his hand. This occurred circa season 6?? after Rick escaped from an RV?? Teeth-vs-bone penetration, no real difference. Blood and guts into broken skin or open mouth should have the same effect. General rules of zombie engagement should have been established in a writer's guide before the first episode was shot (i.e., How fast do zombies move? They growl and shuffle but somehow are able to sneak up on some folks. Some people have an 'out' but can't seem to escape a small band of zombies. A hurd such as descended on the farm in season 2 could not be heard approaching until almost on top of them). Characters are selectively deaf or lack peripheral vision. Among my biggest issues with this show, now deep into season 8, is why the zombies have not turned to dust due to decay/putrification, gravity, environmental elements, and even a declining population to turn, etc. Brains are friable and would even slip out the scull after a time. Season 1 finale established the activity of the virus acted in the brain. Some creative storytelling (with the usual stretching of the imagination, of course) could have made a case for some type of immunity built after years of exposure. Perhaps zombies 'newly created' after several months or years into the ZA might carry a mutated virus (again the ? of how long can a zombie shuffle?). Maybe it is time for an unexpected turn in apocalypse: the rise of the Rabid Infected from the mutated virus. Not dead, not zombies, but just as deadly. Anything but another group of Saviors or Ws or Termites. CDB survivors are not even afraid of zombies any more, like it's a game or the kind of tempting fate that got Carl bitten.

Too much of the episode was so dark on the TV screen that I could not see what was happening. To make matters worse, I could not understand some of the dialogue. I wanted to watch again, hopefully to try and see or hear what I missed, so I re-watched on Amazon Prime the next day. I was pleasantly surprised. Those who have Amazon Prime will be pleased to know that a beautiful print is streaming. However, I still had trouble hearing some dialogue but I replayed a few scenes and finally understood.

I tend to agree that the events at the Negan compound did not go down as shown. Everything seemed too perfect in timing and execution; almost as if a mind (Ricks?) is obsessively replaying a bad event as it should have gone down. This episode felt strange, slightly 'off' from the very beginning as I watched it unfold. I ignored the pretentious cane/clock/flowers/sunshine & old Rick scenes, dismissing the scenes as unreal and irrelevant at this point. What really bothered me was the swooning!Rick, the reflections on his face and red-rimmed tearing eyes. It did not strike me as a dream or a flashback, more like a flash forward to the aftermath of something in the future that went badly. The Independence-Day-like speechifying did not track right either. I was not sure how much time had elapsed since the end of S7 finale and this episode, such that they got all the cars tricked out and everyone organized. What boggled my mind was that Michonne looked as if she were never injured (facially), and she said to Carl: I'll help you defend this place. That made no sense to me. Rosita idling in the rocker made no sense. Not taking down Negan and the Savior leaders, who stepped out as if they were invincible, did not seem plausible. The wasting of the ammo by shooting upward, and shooting out windows, struck me as appalling and senseless. Rick had started shooting at the countdown down. of 7 and struck no one on that balcony. He kept shooting and shooting until Gabriel tried to pull him away. I was really feeling that this was not really happening. Loved Darryl on the motorcycle and lighting up the explosives, but really? Too perfect. No one was spotted/spied upon laying all the explosives and traps, the ambushes, the caravans, yet they could not escape anywhere undetected in the finale of S6?? The real kicker was they appeared to rendezvous at a field and, after Darryl and Rick's exchange, Darryl said something to the effect of 'let's go'. This after a shootout and a herd of walkers. Yet Carol, Ezekiel, et al, were on foot at that Research building and what appeared to be a repeat of the arrow to the head takeout of a Savior and a lot of shooting and then the explosion. I was completely puzzled and confused at this point. Further, Carl was taking canned goods to the hungry man. Did he actually leave the compound as his dad and others were out waginig war?? And once again the Independence Day speech as if they were about to set out for the first time (noting, as others had, that Fr.Gabriel was present). WTF, I was thinking, they had not started yet,so everything that was shown was not real. Back to Swooning!Rick again (and ignoring the Old!Rick scene, at least for now), I suspected that whatever went down subsequently must not have ended well. I couldn't hear the whole sentence, but he said 'Mercy...', the ep title. And, at the beginning (at a time uncertain), he was shown watching some graves. I feel as if a dream; an injured Rick can't face what happened and, if he were injured- is having future dreams and he feels old and worn. Any other theories. I watched twice before posting. Maybe I missed some subtle moment or did not get the beginning/ending scenes. I felt certain they were setting out for the first time. I didn't quite catch it either time, but at the end, did Ezekiel say something about the first time leading to a second time,etc.?

I agree with your thought that the show might be setting up Eugene to be a hero- among other heros- in the survival of CDB, but coming through with something only he can do. Let me pick a nit a bit a wee bit more. I don’t mean to define your meaning or put words in your mouth, but perhaps you meant to say that not all people with a doctoral degree or who are called ‘Doctor’ are physicians, all physicians are doctors who have a doctoral degree (Doctor of Medicine or MD), but not all physicians have PhDs. MD, PhD, JD, DPH, SciD, DVM, DSW, DO, etc, are all doctoral degrees and the degree-holder may be introduced as Doctor (usually not lawyers). Somewhere along the way, doctor became synonymous with physician, therefore clarification is usually required in some situations. In a certain situation, a PhD might clarify and add: I am not a medical doctor. Agent Dana Scully in The X-Files famously would clarify, when in a medical setting and getting the stink-eye from a medical person because she initially identified herself as an FBI agent but started spouting medical jargon: I’m Dr. Scully…I’m a medical doctor.

sorry-duplicate post

sorry-duplicate

I hope we find out more about the origins of this group and why they communicate in this manner. Perhaps they have some shared developmental disorder and Jadis may have been a caretaker/teacher/therapist/etc., known to most of the relative young group from the 'before time'. The older members may have also had a similar position as Jadis. I noted that Jadis uses a lot of non-verbal communication. On the other hand, they might have developed some cognitive impairment related to their environment of choice: a toxic waste site containing heavy metals, brain damaging fumes and medical chemical waste. Of course, TWD creative team was just modeling on MadMax, as others have said, and elements from classic Star Trek (ie, Miri). I got an impression from this group of respect for Jadis' leadership, respect which is not gained from punishment and fear. Hopefully we will learn more.

Sighed I, Thank you for reading and for your generous response, which I sure enjoyed reading. I can’t post as often as I would like, and it takes me awhile to put my thoughts to paper and read post-episode responses, so I am usually several days late to the party. I agree with the first statement, but the latter sentence is what I was driving at: Negan’s intent to deal a devastating blow+lesson to Rick and his group. I wasn'’t suggesting a simple maiming. The recipient of the bat must surely be dead if those were all head blows. I was also wondering if that unfortunate person was the only victim, or that maiming someone else with less than a lethal blow was going on, something that could heal like Dwight’s face or Daryl’s arm if he is not the unfortunate one. We have been primed to believe just one death. I don’t trust the writers. Also, I’m not sure that Negan meant the remark about Carl’s eye to be literal or a hint that Carl might be spared, because Negan intends to make a devastating lesson, and cruel misdirection would not be beyond him. I also like Nashville’s analysis. I’d go a step further and say that, from what we have seen, Negan appears to be both a strategic and tactical thinker, and someone who can envision his “New World Order” and is willing to take big risks to make it happen. Proactive, yet flexible enough to react to changing conditions; evidence of the organization, discipline, control, no ambiguity of intent, delegation of assets/materiel. Yet all Negan does would only serve to make him a target of the next megalomaniac willing to challenge him to be the alpha. I’m also thinking that hubris/cockiness has settled in among Negan’s people, and perhaps they just have not come across a group like Rick’s core band of mega-experienced fighters, which is why Carol alone cut down a few truck loads, and that might be their undoing. Rick’s people just wander off at will without even consulting him or the group at large, or all the battle-tested warriors go out in a big-ass van. The writers make it seem CDB have no B plans. Rick and Daryl’s escapade with the supply truck was unconscionable. Of course it is unconscionable that the writers want us to believe certain characters have lost their stealth as well as their hearing and common sense. Numbers were/are not on their side regardless, and their collective vision is of a rather insular, static community IMO. Once Rick promised to destroy the Saviors for Hilltop, lacking intel and real planning, even if he successfully dispatched them all, did he even consider how many more Savior-like groups are waiting in the wilds to take their place…or just Alexandria-like groups looking for allies? Cosmocrush. I know nothing of the actor playing Negan, nor of the character Negan beyond what I saw or was implied during the course of the season, and I was not impressed either. Standard portrayal of a megalomaniacal sociopath and his gangs. I don’t get this clumsy cliffhanger decision. FilmPimp, that was priceless.

I don't do spoilers and I know nothing of the comics. I'm just speculating here. I don’t believe that Negan feels threatened by the strongest, biggest or most defiant-appearing of the ASZ captives such that he would pick someone like Abe to kill outright. More likely they present a challenge to be subdued and subjugated by exercising his ruthlessness, authority and control. It is usually the perception of weakness- and often the act of pleading for mercy- which excites/escalates violent sociopaths and predators. While it remains to be seen how children, the sick and the elderly fit and fare (if at all) within his group, it appears that Negan’s people must be strong, stealthy, and have the desired survival capabilities. It seems Negan would have little use for the sick or the physically or emotionally weak as well as those who break his rules. A group that retains some humanity in apocalyptic times most likely looks after the youngest, weakest or sickest of their group. Predators, terrorist, slavers, hijackers, cartel leaders, etc, exploit that. While it seems that Negan can quickly size someone up, particularly those in a vulnerable state, he cannot know the various relationship dynamics of Rick's group to choose who to kill, i.e., whose violent demise would have the most impact on Rick and his group as a whole. Negan would have to rely on prior intel (he knows Rick is the leader), behavioral cues (i.e., Glen’s outburst), or immediate notice of what is obvious: who and how many are attentive to carrying Maggie through arduous and dangerous territory, and their determination to get her to where she needs to get help. This points to Maggie as being a likely target for Lucillization. Her death-or Carl’s- would appear to be the most horrific, the most punishing to Rick. Demoralize, punish, humiliate, emasculate, physically limit, and break the apparent leader, thus demonstrating that Rick is powerless to protect them, but only just enough that his group will still look to Rick for cues on surviving in their new reality, especially the big, strong and defiant ones, who can always be disposed of later if they cannot be controlled. Keep their leader alive but hold other dire threats (i.e., Carl) over his head to force him to keep his people in line as they are being indoctrinated. Negan did say he did not want to kill his future workers, save for whoever has to pay the price for the killing of his people. It may just be semantics, but Negan actually said he would “beat the holy hell” out of that unfortunate person. Does that imply that Negan plans to severely maim the person, but if he/she dies, so be it? Could all the blows have been to limbs as well as to head and face? Will Negan take out more than one person (Maggie and Glen)? I would not put it past the creative team. Neither do I believe that Carl is exempt just because Negan made that threat about reaction. Maybe I am mistaken, but up until Rick reacted, I thought Negan was looking at Aaron when he asked if Carl was his, since Carl was next to Aaron. Did anyone else think that?

Just to revisit a point I made in an earlier post, the Originals have had extensive, extended close encounters with Walker body fluids and dead meat. They've had splatters to eyes, mucosa, broken skin, etc. It was suggested at some point earlier in the series that every survivor has the virus (the origin of which is still unknown) and will eventually/inevitably turn regardless of cause of death, even if not bitten. Yet perhaps the extent/duration of exposures determines the development of some immunity or the chance of viral mutation where dying/turning is not inevitable, or the time to D/T is so delayed it may appear to be less of an inevitable outcome. S Survivors who have significantly lower Walker encounters and kills may not have the exposures and time to develop some immunity and/or mutation. What happened to Bob may not be what would happen to some or all of the core group. Lori's exposures may have been less due to pregnancy, which itself might weaken her immune system. Hershel's leg was amputated but, since he was brutally murdered, we will never know if he would eventually have succumbed. This hasn't been discussed much, but what I am getting at is Rick's non-bite related cut/puncture hand injury: if something is to be made of that injury down the road (i.e., infection from any source sets in), how will it affect the remaining community, especially the core group, and their reaction to Rick? (Note: I am unspoiled, don't do spoilers, never read any of the comics). Surely there would be implications and ramifications that could influence or direct the trajectory of season 6 and more if an issue is made. A lot also depends on if Alexandria survives. How can a non-Walker related infection be differentiated from a Walker related infection without proper medical tests available (altho' a microscope and a slide touch and some solution found in an office might work with some bugs)? A flesh-eating bacteria infection might be diagnosed empirically, even by a psychiatry-trained doc, and require immediate radical surgery to spare limb and life, but what is the choice (and would it even make a difference) if a Walker-related infection is even suspected, regrdless of Rick's denial of a bite? What would Rick accept? What would he find acceptable regarding Carl's or Judith's potential exposure or safety given his past position on their- and the core group's- safety. How would Carol respond to such a threat given her past response and preemptive strike? Would Rick be banished vs. voluntarily separate himself regardless, of source of infection and even if he is not symptomatic. Would he- gasp!- end his own life down the road near series end, if not during this season. The writers have created a situation where the time to dying and then turning from a bite appears variable, unpredictable. Much as many factors (newer drugs, better health/supportive care) render indefinite the conversion time from HIV to AIDS in the longest known time since infection in a stable HIV patient. I choose not to believe Glenn is dead since- even before the credits finished rolling- I thought there was going to be some parallel to the pilot scene with Rick in the tank, and I never thought it was other than Nicholas' guts being gutted. Indeed, I entertained that maybe Glenn was in shock and only imagined himself falling, a common enough trope. My thoughts were turning instead around Glenn being severely injured (head injury??) from the fall, bitten, or otherwise exposed such that his return becomes as much a potential threat as Rick's hand injury. Yet Glenn might have an immunity from his repeat exposures or even from whatever infection he survived while at the prison. I think the immunity question could be a real game changer for this series which otherwise has a lot of redundancy and suffers from the 'making it up as they go along' writer's disease

Denial it may be, but I don't believe Glen is dead. If there were space underneath (I don't recall if that was the case), Glenn may have gotten under that structure on which he and Nicholas were standing. He helped Rick escape similarly from under that tank in Season 1. And, as others have stated, it was probably Nicholas' body being torn apart. It is an oft-repeated trope the cliff-hanger of the hero's seeming demise or the trope of the hero- ina moment of extreme stress or disorientation- sees him/herself in the place of the real unfortunate victim. I think this latter situation might have been telegraphed by that interlude conveying silence/sense of time dilation (or time standing still). Glenn may be really and most sincerely dead...undead..er..nevermind...but.. It iwound be the height of stooid on the part of the showrunner/writers to have a beloved and courageous character possessing so much heart and soul die in such a manner and in such a way that suggests his fate might never be known and his remains may never be found. Many who love him would put themselves in danger-Maggie, especially; recall her determination on the way to Terminus- as they set out to search for Glenn. Also, I think stretching out the audience grief and uncertainty for 2 weeks is a manipulation ploy, which will exact profound relief if revealed that Glenn escaped, albeit unscathed. Which leads to the next speculation. While it is likely the case that Michonne was wiping away the note she wrote on her arm and was not being bitten, it appeared that Rick might have sustained some kind of pucture injury when he dispatched one of those walkers on the road. I am wondering if the core group, given the extent/duraton of their intimte and bloody exposures (Walker bodily fluids in the eyes, face, mouth, open sores) has developed an immunity to a degree that they may never sicken-die-turn. Is this a major plot turn of this and future seasons? Does this become a source of hope for the future? Glenn escapes but not without a bite or two, Rick has a deep wound but neither sickens in the expected amount of time. And what would Carol do?

What you said. Michonne had a long enough blade to put the guy out of his misery. It is not the wisest decision in all cases, obviously: shooting Noah, for instance, would have shattered whatever minimal protection the glass offered.

I'm late to this party, but I couldn't remember my sign-ins and forget where I wrote them down.. Whether or not any of the characters in the FTWD universe would have a concept of Zombies does not really address the dissonance some of us are experiencing about a character’s actions, responses and choices (or lack thereof) relative to their individual and/or collective experiences as events are unfolding. From the very beginning, through all 3 episodes, the whole of FTWD is not tracking for me, be it a result of some combination of acting, directing, writing, staging or casting choices. These characters are so impenetrable that I cannot empathize or even care about them; nor relate to how the characters are processing what they see and feel. The actors are not doing a good job of conveying the conscious/unconscious mix of impending dread, mounting fear, vulnerability, confusion, frustration and disorientation that occurs when one’s humanity and sense of normalcy/order is being both assaulted and challenged by the incomprehensible, a mix that might explain some questionable behaviors or choices- be they dumb, bad or illogical. Compare with NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD (1968): The characters in this movie know nothing of zombies/walking dead (and the audience back then had no preconceived notions of Zs/WD either). The characters don’t know what/why/how, but they react out of fear, confusion, survival instinct and ‘reality’ as they observe it unfold and from which they try to escape. As horror and tension build with the knowledge of some that they are in a deathtrap, they are further motivated by suspicion, prejudice, hoarding, territoriality and protecting-one's-own and. in doing so. reveal aspects of their 'normal times' character. Of note, the actors deftly establish character and function as an ensemble from the get-go, and the character dynamics are consistently realistic. Forget not having a concept of zombies: FTWD characters are not reacting realistically-IMO- to the real-time events as they are unfolding in their faces. The NOTLD characters had arrived at the house confused and frightened, having run for their lives from hordes of crazed ‘”people” or “those things” turning over cars, chasing them, biting. Recall Ben’s (Duane Jones) monologue about what he experienced before barely making it to that house. Barbra, the traumatized woman, in shock, recalling the terrifying events in the cemetery and her escape. The mother’s fear and confusion about her sick daughter, who was bitten during their escape, and her alarm when Ben says to her: “..who knows what kind of diseases they have..” Later, they find a TV and listen to a news bulletin where the newscaster reports-incredulous!- that there are reports of “people eating other people" and reports of "the dead coming back to life!" FTWD actors have no chemistry; there is no sense of an ensemble effort; the acting/choices are ‘off’; the characters are dumbed-down and slow-witted (writer/director fault). We can't know if this is a result of shock because we don't know the baseline. I’m never certain about passage of time, the spatial layout of places, and events; I cannot step back and see the larger picture/scale/scope, a result of having only the POV of these few characters. For myself, I feel there is a gaping hole in the storytelling by not opening the series with a teaser suggesting the ground zero of the plague virus and/or of Patient(s) Zero, even if the origin of the virus itself cannot be known. What were the initial symptoms and duration to death? For example (if they must have a junkie for a character), did the virus come to LA via some shipment of really ‘bad sh@#’ or bad food? Another option would have been to have the opening few episodes offer the POV of different families or individuals in different places. I think the hospital where Mrs Salazar was being taken for her injured foot should have been one of those places where we see through the eyes of the medical staff, especially if said Patient(s) Zero collapsed in the ER. Perhaps the POV from a police or military base. Maybe even of the passengers/crew on that jet. What do folks think about the lack of storytelling via unrelated POVs (folks who later might come together as a group) or lack of teaser/prologue that might suggest origin of the plague?

Ava was neither tried nor convicted of anything. The original charge that landed her in jail was for moving a body. She was being released on bail for that charge. That charge still stands, but with almost zero chance of bail being revoked for that. She has not been tried for the charge of assaulting/stabbing a prison guard (and that charge would have folded like a cheap suit if investigated, although Ava would have felt her life was in such imminent danger that she could not wait even for that judicial process to be completed). Ava has not been charged with anything that occurred within the prison, including the death of that inmate. The writers probably forgot their own convoluted Ava prison story, and that is why Raylan misspoke that Ava was sentenced. They also forgot, or did not know, that none of her charges are federal, therefore Vazquez can't send her anywhere. He can only cancel the CI agreement, His only role was approving a CI agreement and hoping the state prosecutor was in agreement to having her released. It is up to the state prosecutor to determine if she goes back to prison to await trial for what in essence is a very, very weak case. If Fekus recanted, she would have been bailed and the feds, state and corrections are all screwed. If Fekus did not recant (ie, the feds made that up), then the feds are still screwed. Sloppy, sloppy, lazy writing.